By Cobb Parent

April 21, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

A lot of this begins at home

By mmm

April 21, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

I was in school 25 years ago and my children are in elementary school today.

That was a small rural school.

My kids are getting a better education now in their charter school, but the traditional urban school which they would otherwise be forced to attend is a far worse environment than I had (although I’m sure there is far more money being spent on it than was spent on my rural school)

Yes there are better teaching methods—but that isn’t to say that the average teacher is better. There are vast differences in teacher quality, but I think teachers overall are not a bright as they used to be relative to the general population.
25 years ago, smart women would become nurses or teachers or nuns rather than homemakers because these were the acceptable careers. Now there are no unacceptable careers, so teaching—with all its downsides, can’t compete with becoming a lawyer, doctor or other highly respected profession for the talent.

The number one predictor of student performance is teacher quality. And many (not all—and some of our bloggers are exceptions) of the brighter teacher work their way up by getting a position at a school where the teaching environment is better (read middle class, highly educated and committed parent population or magnet program where troublemakers don’t get in.)

So schools that teach the poor over all are not doing a better job than they did 25 years ago. Between the “bottom of the barrel” teachers, and the destruction of community norms that value education, they have become pre-prison holding pens.

I don’t want to say anything to support segregation. But many of the teachers that taught in all-black schools were the best, most committed and most educated in the Black community. And the community saw a better future for itself through the education of its young. Now many of our schools are no less segregated by SES and many times race as well—but the communities and families do not see education as holding the key to a better future. It is pushing this back that must happen before our “better teaching methods” will matter.

By SET

April 21, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

I don’t see any reason to think the schools are any better.

With all due respect to Cobb Parent, School culture is so powerful it typically overpowers home culture. I don’t care how degenerate the parents are, if the schools provided a strong foundation in morals and values we would have far better results with the students. The public schools refuse to provide any moral and value instruction even so simple as to teach respect for authority and the criminal codes - typical 18 year olds haven’t a clue about how criminal law works on such important things as vicarious liability (getaway driver is as guilty as any gang member who went into the bank even if they didn’t know or approve of who did what).

So this mess doesn’t begin at home. It begins and ends at the schools who incubate a culture of failure.

Our 3rd world Asian immigrants can tell you that the school norms overcome the most forceful home training they can muster - many of them have huge cultural gaps with their younger generation as a result of sending them to public schools.

By jim d

April 21, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

A nation at risk? Of what?

Gerald Bracey wrote an article earlier this year addressing what we may be at risk of.

It makes for an interesting read. i’d suggest reading it with an open mind, as it does provide food for thought.

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

That is a difficult question to answer: are our schools better than before.

Before (when I was in school decades ago), there was a lot of direct instruction. The teachers lectured and the students were held accountable for their learning. The ‘best’ students got it, while the others did not. The ‘best’ students when on from high school to college, while the others started a career immediately after high school.

Today, teachers are told to teach at a level for everyone. We are told NOT to lecture, but to do “fun” things. We try to find any way possible to impart knowledge to the worst student. Today, all students are expecting to go to college. Few go from high school to a career. Even the worst high school student expects to go to college (Piedmont College or the like).

So then, to answer the question: are our high schools better now than before - you have to understand that the objectives of the high schools have changed a great deal!

mmm Where is the world did you get that “the number one predictor of student performance is teacher quality?” That is the most absurd thing ever. From studies I have read, the top predictors of student performance include socioeconomic status, parental involvement, and others, with teacher quality way down on the list. Please share with us your source!

Also, it is very difficult for teachers to move from one school to another, as you suggest. You said that the ‘better’ teachers go to the ‘better’ schools while the ‘worst’ teachers end up in the poor schools. Again, I call BS. Please cite your source. I started as a rookie teacher in one of the better schools in the State - I am sure that there were better and more experienced teachers available than me.

By catlady

April 21, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

The person who wrote about the changing of our teaching cohort in respect to the past was right. However…

Our schools are dealing with many more “problemed” children than they used to. Used to, MR kids left after 6th or 7th grade. Severely retarded kids did not go to school at all. Now, special ed kids can stay until they turn 22. Kids were expected to leave home problems at home. Now, we provide counselors and nurses, graduation coaches, and behavioral specialists to “assist” these students. ELL kids did not get any extra help learning English. Parents would “take care of things” if the school called and complained about behavior. And kids were raised on dirt, sunshine, and responsibility, instead of being parked in front of the tv/computer or shunted from after school activity to after school activity. Parents were parents and if they were not, the extended family or welfare office took the kids away. We just cannot compare teaching/schools then to now. No way.

By SAMMI

April 21, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

JustMe..I believe you are right to challenge the statement:“the number one predictor of student performance is teacher quality” My reading also indicates socio-economic status…but, in addition, the education of the mother seems to play a huge role. And LAURA…your assertion that Research and technology have led to better teaching methods. could also be challenged. Many of us see some of these research based better teaching methodsas responsible for the lowering of expectations and, as someone above mentioned, teaching to the lowest common denominator in the classroom.

By mmm

April 21, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Just me On teacher quality—please read page 8 of the “Top ten issues to watch” on the GPEE website: http://www.gpee.org/

I also watched a presentation by someone on the IE2 task force that showed something like a 35 percentile point gap on nationally normed referenced tests from a blind matched set of kids that had gotten either 3 years of effective teachers, or 3 years of ineffective teachers—-but I can’t find that power point at the moment.

As to how easy it is to move from schools, for that my views are more antidotal. I compare things like the person giving me a tour at DESA saying that rarely did they have more than 2-3 new teachers a year. But Avondale Elementary had about a 50% staff turnover last year. I hear teachers all the time talking about leaving to get out from a bad system or administrator. We had a Blogger Friday talk about leaving DeKalb because of the pay raise thing. Can we say that is a Savy teacher making the kind of choice that a good High School Science teacher can make?

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

catlady AMEN!

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

SAMMI Welcome to these boards! I don’t recall you posting before. You sound like you have a solid background to contribute to our discussions. I look forward to your posts!

By SAMMI

April 21, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

One of the key differences in today’s public schools and those “back in the day”: Criteria , a standard , a requirement for mastery of material before proceeding. At some point there was a change from teaching to criteria to teaching to whatever a student was willing or able to do and calling it OK. Years ago, an Asian student told me she just didn’t understand American schools. In Asian schools, she said, the teacher gives ONE assignment for everyone. Some kids take 5 minutes to do it, some take 5 hours, but everyone is expected to complete THE SAME assignment. And for tests, the grading is standard, while here, she said, one student can miss 5 questions and pass and another can miss 25 and still pass.

By SAMMI

April 21, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

mmmI am curious to know what criteria was used to judge the *quality/effectiveness * of the teachers in the studies you mention.

JustMe Thanks for the welcome. I lurk around this blog a lot.

By meme

April 21, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Off topic, Laura, but a quick question. Are Georgia schools required to provide transportation for students? I think with the rising gas prices, this would be a concern for the school systems.

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

mmm On page 8 of the document you mentioned, it says that teacher quality is, “the single most school-based factor impacting student achievement.” However, it is not one of the biggest overall factors impacting student achievement. Home life, parental involvemnet, socio-economics, and so on rank way higher when you look at the big picture.

Also, comparing DESA 2 to 3 teachers with Avondale Elementary is unfair. DESA has far fewer teachers than Avondale Elementary. In any case, a 50% teacher turnover is a really, really bad sign, IMHO.

I would think that a good HS science teacher or math teacher could more easily move because they are in more demand with fewer people and there are more open positions in various school systems. However, most teaching positions are not like HS math or science.

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

meme Good question! I am under the impression (don’t know for sure) that schools are required to provide transportation only to ‘home’ schools. Home schools are those that the home address lies in their respective boundaries. Beyond that, schools are not required to provide transportation.

I may be wrong, however!

By MrLiberty

April 21, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

What exactly has happened to make the answer to this question an obvious YES?

Have test scored improved, has literacy improved, have graduation rates improved? Of course not.

We have allowed more and more central control of the schools - aka “every child left behind”. There was a time when good republicans were going to work to end all federal involvement, but that was the same group that got absolutely nothing done and have now gone on to threaten world.

Until education is restored to the parents - where it belongs, there will never be any serious improvement in education. Government employees are truly the last people anyone should turn their kids over to - yet we do it for 12 long years.

Expect to see this same blog in 2018, 2028, 2038…

By Tamika

April 21, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Are Schools better Today is that a Joke?

US Kids score Dead last on all test Scores in the Industrailized Modern World!!

By Stacey

April 21, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

Catlady…Amen!

IMO (no data to support, technology has weakened some areas of education. I’ve been out of high school 20 years but I remember having to do Trig & Calculus “long hand” where as for several years now, students have been allowed to use calculators. While I don’t deny that I wished we had access to those calculators (they existed but were expensive and considered cheating), we had no choice but to learn how to solve problems. Ditto on actually using books to do research. We had to read and write as opposed to printing something from the internet. No, I’m not saying that students shouldn’t be allowed to take advantage of the technology that is now available but rather that they should learn how to figure things out without it.

By Tony

April 21, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

The report “A Nation at Risk” is a purely political report. It is not a scientific analysis of facts regarding educational progress (or lack of). It was handed down from on high in order to back an agenda - federal control over schools.

At the same time as this report, there was another report analyzing student achievement which painted a very different picture. It is referred to as The Sandia Report. You can google and find a copy. The Department of Energy has a lab at Sandia, hence the name. The Department of Education instructed the Department of Energy to “bury the report.”

The shrill cry of doom and gloom is much akin to “the sky is falling” of the children’s tales. How many times must we endure the knee-jerk reactions of “leaders” who claim education is in crisis. There may be isolated areas where improvement is needed, but by and large the system provides a good, basic education to the majority of citizens in the country.

Now, if you are expecting a world-class education then you may need to rethink issues like funding. You may also have to examine underlying social factors that contribute to poor educational quality. JM is right to remind everyone of the impact of socioeconomic status upon student achievement. There are other social factors with huge impacts, too. For instance, the nations that lead us on the world indicators tend to have access to healthcare for all children. Something our great nation still shuns.

“A Nation at Risk” is one of the most bogus reports ever perpetuated on American Society. It ranks up there with “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq.

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty I would put a slight twist on what you wrote at 12:37. I would say that until parents accept responsbility for their own children, education will not improve. It is fine for the government to provide the opportunity for an education. But, without good parents, that opportunity will be wasted (which is what is happening now, IMHO).

By Tony

April 21, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

US Kids score Dead last on all test Scores in the Industrailized Modern World!!

This quote is completely false and is typical of what happens when people rely on media and politicians for their information.

By charlie oldtimer

April 21, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

kids today have no respect or discipline

and that comes from the home….brought up in a home where discipline and respect are not taught.

why should a kid respect his/her teacher when the parents dont respect authority figures either.

By caroline

April 21, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

I think American eductation will continue to decline until we stop forcing kids to go to school. The ones in my class that don’t want to be here, distract those that do. Let them drop out after 6th grade.

By devils advocate

April 21, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

SET

why do you think 18 year olds have any “respect for authority”

could it be because when they do get in trouble at school, the parents do nothing about it…therefore giving the child the knowledge that he/she can pretty much do what he/she wants to because mommy and daddy arent gonna do anything about it.

respect for authority has to come from the home FIRST….then it can be reinforced in the schools.

By SFMom

April 21, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

After 14 years in education, I think I can speak a little about this subject. There are some definite PRO’s in education today. Schools today provide far more programs for students to help them learn. With every generation, we must change our curriculum to fit students needs. This is the technology age. We must have computer based learning opportunities. Many, not all, schools have done an awesome job meeting this need. Additionally, school tutoring programs, Saturday school and the like are also available.

The CONS are the same as they were when I was in school in the 70’s and 80’s. Poor teachers have always existed. I never encountered a good math teacher until college. They knew the subject, they just couldn’t deliver. And yes, it does begin at home, but that’s not to say that we can’t teach kids that don’t get it at home. Discipline is the real issue today, unlike 25 years ago. This is why teachers can’t teach.

mmmm You stated -I don’t want to say anything to support segregation. But many of the teachers that taught in all-black schools were the best, most committed and most educated in the Black community. And the community saw a better future for itself through the education of its young. Now many of our schools are no less segregated by SES and many times race as well—but the communities and families do not see education as holding the key to a better future.

I’ve worked in a variety of situations and believe me, it’s not just the Black community. The media has done a fantasticjob of making white America believe that the Black community doesn’t value education. I would love for you to visit my kids majority Black school and see the reality. I’m so sick of reading this everyday by someone. You don’t live with me, so how would you know what my community values? Where do you get your facts? And what neighborhoods did they use? We don’t all live in the ghetto just like you don’t all live in trailer parks.

By Sam

April 21, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

SET, at 10:55 AM, pretty much gets it: …if the schools provided a strong foundation in morals and values we would have far better results with the students.

However, let’s that it farther.

If the schools provided a strong foundation in learning that includes morals and values, we would have far better results with the students.

Then we would have far better results with the next generation of parents, homes, and families.

Then we would have far better results with the next generation of educators and schools.

Then we would have far better results with the next generation of children and students.

Then we would have far better results with the next generation of parents, homes, and families.

Then we would have far better results with the next generation of educators and schools.

Then we would have far better results with the generation of children and students.

See the cycles?

No one place in the cycle is wholly the problem or wholly the answer. However, public education in service to the democratic common good was the best collective leverage point until the manufactured crises A Nation at Risk inflicted upon the country.

By don imus

April 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Caroline

why dont you get off the AJC Blog page and get back to your 6th graders.

maybe then some of them wouldnt be distracting the others in class.

“let the drop out after 6th grade”…..seriously? I dont even know how to respond to that other than if my kid has a 6th grade teacher named Caroline, I think we’ll be asking for a request to transfer

By teach1

April 21, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

Recently someone tried to explain to me, that part of the reason our country lags behind is because once again we are not comparing apples to apples.

I was told other nations only test the upper level of their students. Some countires do educational tracking. This means that only the top students are compared to our nation where we test many or in Gerogia’s case EVERYBODY. Please let me know if I was misinformed because this seems to make all testing invalid.

By JD

April 21, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

The number 1 problem is discipline. I am a substitute teacher in high school and elementary school. There is some respect at the elementary level but very little in high school. They talk to me and other teachers like we’re dogs. Most are not motivated and could care less about their education. I agree with Caroline that these type students need to go. They don’t need to drop out but need to be separated from the students that are there to learn. Also, our school system seems to think that piling on the homework is an answer to everything. They assign hours and hours of it every night. We need to look at countries like Finland who have some of the highest test scores in the world. They have a combined homework time of 30 min. total each night! You can look this up at http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120425355065601997-7Bp8YFw7Yy1n9bdKtVyP7KBAcJA_20080330.html also http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/finnishschool.html

By caroline

April 21, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

don imus

Ever hear of Spring Break? Everyone doesn’t have spring break at the same time. BTW - I teach in a small private school. These kids can be just as bad as kids in public school.

By don imus

April 21, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

CAROLINE

why yes as a matter of fact I have heard of spring break.

what school do you teach at?

Public school administrators have the messiah complex…they feel the need to save every kid and that every kid deserves 17 chances. Problem is, not every kid wants to be saved. Some kids just dont care about education, for whatever reason, and for that they need to be sent to an alternative school (i.e. the GIVE Center)

if a private school kid acts up, I promise you the parents are more likely to take action because they are paying for the child to go there. If little private school Johnny gets kicked out of Mt. Pisgah, his parents arent getting a refund… If little public school Johnny gets in trouble, the parents might be less inclined to do anything because they know the public schools are going to suspend the kid, have a parent-administrator conference, and little Johnny will be back at school in no time.

By jim d

April 21, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

Tony Nailed it.

““A Nation at Risk” is a purely political report.”

Quite a shame the mass media fails to see that. Even worse that politians have played it up, preying on a parents fears to get themselves elected.

By NICK

April 21, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Schools are worse now then 25 yrs. ago.

Asian, Black and Hispanic Gangs, illegalls, teen pregnancy and non-english speaking criminals have taken over the system.

We pander to “their special needs” rather then to the folks that are there to learn and try to succeed in life.

Private school is the ONLY way to go.

By caroline

April 21, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Small private school in south-west Georgia. Public school administrators are the reason I left the public school system. And I am not going to tell you where I teach because it is obvious to me that I would be harassed by you.

By FYI

April 21, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

Despite the apparent simplicity of Finnish education, it would be tough to replicate in the U.S. With a largely homogeneous population, teachers have few students who don’t speak Finnish. In the U.S.,about 8% of students are learning English, according to the Education Department. There are fewer disparities in education and income levels among Finns. *Finland separates students for the last three years of high school based on grades; 53% go to high school and the rest enter vocational school. *

By jim d

April 21, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

Again, I ask “at risk of what’?

At risk of producing only college grads? At risk of not providing a work force willing to enter the trades, becoming tradesmen that we so desperately depend upon to keep our nation moving? At risk of dumbing down the majority of our pouplation? At risk of totally destroying our economy?

Perhaps we need to revisit “A nation at risk” today to determine just excatly what is at risk.

By caroline

April 21, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Last statement. I did not agree with everything I read on this blog today. However, I did not think it was necessary to attack anyone for their different ideas. Don’t worry, I won’t be posting any more on this blog. I will keep my opinions to myself. I think someone needs to moderate a bit better.

By catlady

April 21, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

But, without good parents, that opportunity will be wasted (which is what is happening now, IMHO).

Just me, I would even say that opportunity is being STOLEN from our kids every day by kids who don’t behave as civilized humans, who are not willing to put any effort into their work. This drags down the other 25 kids in the room. Until we deal with moving out (trying to motivate them has not worked) the disruptive kids (ie like our European counterparts do and SORT) the rest will continue to go down the tubes.

By Teacher

April 21, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

caroline - Ignore Don Imus. He is just a butt head.

Teachers have planning periods, lunch breaks, and usually a few minutes between classes. People like Don don’t understand education, don’t understand the teaching profession, yet think that they are experts in it all. This results in him (them) gladly telling you (us) what we (teachers) SHOULD be doing.

I would be giddy if people like Don Imus removed their pompous brats from my classroom.

Nick Again, I must remind you and others to please NOT lump all public schools together. There are some excellent ones, and some that are better than the majority of private schools.

By Eva

April 21, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Given the limited options teachers have to discipline disruptive students today and the fact that some parents don’t want to parent but want to be their child’s best friend, society is now pandering to the child, rather than groom and educate them to the best possible standards. Having said that, there are many other reasons Georgia isn’t high of the list of educational prowess.

I was educated in Europe, and we had a segregation system in place - aptitude tests administered and students classed in groups depending on those results. No catering to the students, allowing them free reign to do whatever they wanted. Respect was demanded for each faculty member, little to no disruption in class, everyone passed to the best of their abilities.

Should I ever have children, I will strive to give them the best education I possibly can and if that means moving to do so, then so be it. With the expectations of teens these days and society’s nonchalant attitude towards their behaviour/demands without discipline/consequences for their actions, I don’t see any chance of improvement in education any time soon.

By catlady

April 21, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

On my wildest days, I dream about “how I would fix the United States”. One of the things I would do: Let kids who show no interest or ability drop out of school. BUT they would be dropping INTO a spartan, military like mandatory education center where they would develop and demonstrate marketable skills before release. It would be a very basic, single sex, regimented existence until they could show that they could support themselves and their children without preying on the rest of us. Might make the rest of the students value the opportunity they have to freely associate, chart their own paths, etc.

The thing is, I have watched over the 34 years I have taught how we (educators) have slavishly accepted all demands made of us. And then we wonder why we don’t “succeed.”

By frmrtchr

April 21, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

OK, get ready for a rant. YES, overall our schools are in dismal shape. Yes, there are individual schools that are great and that provide excellent educations for their students. Take a look at their populations -hands down they have an extremely active parent base. IT ALL BEGINS AT HOME!!!! Once in a blue moon a kid from a crappy home with terrible parents will break free and become something wonderful, but 99% of the time, if the parents don’t care and won’t take up any time with the child, enforce limits and boundaries, and actually be a parent, then you’re going to have a poor student who is misbehaving and behind in everything. I taught in S. Dekalb for 3 years and in East Cobb for 1 year. I now have a job where I interact with preschool children from low income neighborhoods. Most of these children are 3-5 and my 2 year old could run circles around them. Their parents use the tv as a babysitter (and they’re not watching children’s programming), never actually talk to the kid, and never read or stimulate their minds in any way. Bottom line -it doesn’t matter how much money the government throws at education. YES, higher salaries and more stringent requirements for teachers would yield an overall higher class of educator. Also, the administrators need to be checked on constantly because far too many of them are just sucking on the government teat. But, in the end, if we don’t hold both parents and children accountable for the kid’s behaviour and performance, then we’re going to keep sliding down down down. We’re in this mode of “everyone has to go to college”, and half our population isn’t suited for it. We need ditch diggers and service people too. Want to know why we basically HAVE to have illegal immigrants to do all of the “grunt” work in building and agriculture? Because even the lowest IQ on the pole in our public schools has been taught that he or she needs to go to college and make 100K a year. They’re told to never settle for anything that involves actual hard physical work. AND, for some reason all of their teachers owe them some tremendous amount of respect. They don’t need to earn it! I can’t tell you how often I was told by students that I was “disrespecting them” because I had the audacity to want them to be quiet or hand in an assignment on MY schedule! This happens constantly to teachers everywhere. The sorry, lazy parents also want you to deeply respect them - and while they do absolutely nothing -turn their child into a superstar. It’s pathetic. Bring back REAL expulsions and discipline in schools and if parents don’t like it -they can start raising their kids better.

By sclinton

April 21, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

NO!

By sclinton

April 21, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

NO!

By Ron

April 21, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

Are schools better today? That depends. If you are at a mostly white school, like in East Cobb, Alpharetta, Forsyth, etc, then yes. However if you are at one of the thug schools like most Atlanta, DeKalb, South Fulton, or Clayton County schools, then no. There you get the thugs, gangs, shootings, drugs, etc. Gotta love that bad parenting.

By frmrtchr

April 21, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

And yes, Caroline actually raises a great point as does catlady -let the ones who really don’t want to be there GO! I’m not so sure about after 6th grade, but if they were being placed in a training facility as catlady suggests, I think it would be great. Maybe we could focus on how to properly use birth control and they could choose a particular track to focus on -hospitality industry, building, landscaping, etc. If they still can’t tow the line and drop out or get kicked out -well, the populace has always had people on the fringe and we always will.

By JustMe

April 21, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

jd I would say that we are at risk of producing a generation achieving exactly when we set out to achieve.

• a generation of people that will meet the minimum bar called NCLB.

  • a generation of people that have unfulfilled potential.

  • a generation of people that expect to have everything given to them and don’t have to work for anything.

  • a generation of people with no respect for authority or for their elders.

By kitty

April 21, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Jeeze,Louise. It is socio-economic level as well as mother’s educational level — yes, mothers! And when I was in school 30+ something years ago — right after the dinosaurs died, we were lectured and the teachers taught with chalkboard & piece of chalk. No gadgets or fluff. Go figure, I can read, write and do ‘rithmetic. Furthermore, so can my child. Both parents have been involved with her education and tried to keep a finger on the pulse. She is one of the 4450 to get admitted to UGA this fall (out of 18000) apps. We, her parents, expected her to maintain grades, do her homework, etc. She chose to play sports and other extracurricular activities — but the academics came first. Father and I are both college educated — and we both sent ourselves to school!

By Wow

April 21, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Y’know, I lurk on these boards occasionally and I must ask - is there ever a topic when someone doesn’t bring up race? Whoever said black people are more racist than whites are MUST be white. I’m sure for every ill in this country someone will say it’s because of a black person. As a newcomer to the South (relocated from Barcelona, Spain) because of my job, I’m pretty shocked at some of the attitudes here. Pity.

By John

April 21, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

The school environment is worse today in that the percentage of students from low income families in which the parents have less education and lower expectations is far higher than when most of us in our fifties were in school. That leads to disciplinary problems, parent-teacher confrontations, etc.

The “dress code” in most schools is a joke and, when students dress sloppily, they usually perform sloppily since there is a direct correlation between “dress for success” and successful achievement.

That said, schools teach much more advanced material at a lower grade level than they did 30 or 40 years ago.

Students who want to learn can learn but until students come to school dressed neatly from homes where achievement is expected there will be failure at school and in life.

By jim d

April 21, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

JM,

I agree, and therefore suspect our schools are quite successful.

Bit of a shame. Aye?

By jim d

April 21, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Really john?

I know some of those rejects you speak of that are currently knocking down decent 6 figure salaries. I know this may be an exception but you made a rather sweeping statement there regarding dress and success at the high school level.

By jim d

April 21, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

JMHO,

But it stands to reason that we will remain a nation at risk until such time as that risk becomes reality!

Ain’t nobody gonna fix it till then.

By Teach1

April 21, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

No Child Left Behind means No Child Should Excel. By requiring the sweet children in the special ed dept to take the same test every non mentally challenged is required to take, you are setting the system up to fail. If you child has no interest in on going education that send them to the minimum educational route and allow those students who will lead this nation to greatness to succeed in a challenging academic world.

Again I say compare apples to apples. Fins may only have 4% drop out rate but they have already seperated our 53% of the students who did not go into the formal educational track.

Finland separates students for the last three years of high school based on grades; 53% go to high school and the rest enter vocational school. Finland has a high-school dropout rate of about 4% — or 10% at vocational schools — compared with roughly 25% in the U.S., according to their respective education departments. Wall street Journal Feb 28, 2008.

By Lee

April 21, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this

Are we really surprised that public schools are in such disarray? We shouldn’t be. They are merely microcosms of society’s problems at large.

50+ years ago, the federal government wrested control away from the locals as a result of the Brown vs. Board ruling. The subsequent years of bussing students merely confirmed that parents were powerless in the face of the federal juggernaut.

In 1975, Congress passed the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). This act gave rise to the concept of Free and Appropriate Education. Noble concept. However, the reality is that the borderline retard is plucked down beside the future valedictorian and the educrats expect them to learn at the same rate.

Facinating concept. Maybe the horse breeders in Kentucky can mix a few mules in with their herd and increase the number of Thoroughbreds.

All the while, Congress thought it would be a grand idea to open our borders and allow the third world to overwhelm our society.

So, our future valedictorian now has to contend with the illegal alien who can’t speak a lick of English to take up even more instructional time.

Let us not forget the failed welfare policies that precipitated the illegitimatacy rate of some segments to approach 75%. Unmarried welfare moms having babies they don’t care about gave rise to an increasing crime rate and further breakdown of our society.

Through in a few sugar’d up ADD/ADHD kids on various psychotropic drugs and you have our future valedictorian with a retard on the right, illegal alien on the left, future felon to the rear, and various misfits tearing up the room.

And now, with NCLB, they are only worried about getting the bottom 50% up to some arbitrary performance standard.

As that character from Mad Magazine would say:

What? Me worry?

I just don’t know why anyone would think there was a problem…..

By yesiamworried

April 22, 2008 6:37 AM | Link to this

A great amount of the problems in society stem from parents these days. The GA Tech baseball player who recently died when to Wesleyan, a very Christian school. It sounds like his parents (at least his dad) was aware he was messing around (experimenting?) with drugs.

Right and wrong — consequences for actions — these are things that my generation of parents seem hesitant to speak to, demonstrate to, their children.

It doesn’t matter what kind of school a kid attends if he/she isn’t being taught values at home.

By jim d

April 22, 2008 6:37 AM | Link to this

Funny you bring up SPED, Lee.

Interesting article on “response to intervention” or RTI yesterday at the MSNBC website

By JustMe

April 22, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

jd If you agree with my points, as you said in your post of 4:27 PM, let me point out who is to ‘blame’ for each point….

So, jd, do we also agree on the causes? Just curious.

By WFC

April 22, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

TONY & JIM D: I beg to differ concering a “Nation at Risk.” I had been teaching ten years when that report was released. Sure, it was political, but it was also a “call to arms” in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence.

Have things improved in the last 25 years? Depends on who you are.

• “No Child Left Behind” is a political hoax. There is no way that the child of a teen unwed mother will EVER be able to compete with my son whose parents both have masters degrees and $100,000 to spend on their son’s education. Anyone who believes otherwise is stupid or deluded.

• Improvements in education are largely caused by the huge influx of Asian students. Asian culture values academics. Don’t believe it? Look at the list of National Merit scholars for Fulton County. 90% are of Asian heritage. It’s not an accident.

• QUALITY OF TEACHERS: There have been many fine human beings who he entered education in the llast few decades. Unfortunely, they for the most part have NOT been thoroughly grounded in the subjects they teach. My undergrad degree was in pure history. I went back for a masters in education and did all the undergrad education work in addition to my masters courses. Also took 7 serious seminars in history. Can current teachers match that preparation? Not very many.

• SPORTS: I coached basketball, baseball and football for twenty years and loved it. Good for the kids. But I saw far too many teacher/coaches who only “waved at their academic classes” in passing while their real work went into their teams. Do other nations do this charade?

By catlady

April 22, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

jim d, thanks for the link to the RTI article. It really is not nearly that benign, at least as implemented at my school. It is a travesty, and probably illegal as well. Be glad your son is graduating, and encourage him to put off childbearing until waayy after he gets out of college. Maybe things will swing back to common sense by then!

By jim d

April 22, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

JM,

Agree on the causations? Hmm, not entirely

By jim d

April 22, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

You’re welcome cat,

I haven’t formulated an opinon yet on RTI. Don’t know that I will. just saw the article and thought it may be of some interest.

The kid? 21 school days left—but who’s counting? He will be spending the next 4 years in Charleston, then the next 4 or more traveling the globe. So hopefully he’ll wait several before deciding to set down roots anywhere.

By Karen H

May 27, 2008 3:30 AM | Link to this

Our 3rd world Asian immigrants can tell you that the school norms overcome the most forceful home training they can muster - many of them have huge cultural gaps with their younger generation as a result of sending them to public schools.

I beg to differ. As an Asian, I can tell you that I excelled regardless of the school I went to. It wasn’t my teachers who were my main influence, or even my peers. It was my parents who made me work harder than any of my friends. A C wasn’t good enough. Neither was a B. If I got an A-, my parents told me I had to work harder to get an A. I’m bright but not a genius. The good grades I got in both high school and college were from sheer hard work.

That’s the way it is with Asian families. They don’t go whining that the teachers aren’t good enough or the school isn’t good enough. Asian families teach kids that teachers are to be respected and listened to at all times. Asian parents tend to collaborate with teachers, not contradict them. If they feel their kid has skills that go beyond what the school offers, the parents find another job or scrape and save to fund extracurricular studies.

Some of my American-born schoolmates didn’t do so well, and their parents blamed the teachers. Not mine. If I didn’t do well, it was MY problem, not the teacher’s.

I’ve gone to poor schools and better-off schools. I’ve gone to schools with AP classes and those that could barely find books for their students. It didn’t matter. I still had to work hard and get good grades.

Seriously, parents have a lot more to do with how well a student does than teachers do.