Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

I certainly hope not. As much as I’ll admit that public education is on a rapidly declining trajectory, I will similarly admit that the idea of an equal or greater number of religious schools in the Atlanta area worries me. Unfortunately, public education’s pathetic state might be the very cause of an increase in private catholic school enrollment in the Atlanta area.

Shame.

Why does the indoctrination of children have to begin at such an early age? I’m always surprised by the number of people here in the South who cast reason and logic to the wind just to espouse a religious viewpoint or belief. It’s pathetic. So is the completely ridiculous number of churches that pepper the state like malignant, religious weeds. Compare the number of schools versus the number of churches. The results are disheatening, startling, and completely insane.

I don’t understand why private school and religious school seem always to be linked. Sure, there are exceptions, but I think they are just that—exceptions to the rule.

I’m glad for the decline in numbers, it gives me hope. I hope that people are finding meaning, purpose, and enlightenment through themselves, instead of needing the the good graces of some higher power or the people around them every Sunday.

Imagine that, people who could find joy and comfort in their life without some fictional explanation that’s been crammed down their throats for two thousand years. Instead of reading the bible, perhaps they would be better off reading something like Anthem by Ayn Rand, or the epic of Gilgamesh which predates the bible by a few thousand years and yet, magically, seems to contain many of the same stories. Fancy that.

Now let’s watch the heads roll.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

V:

The only ones who deny reason and logic to cling to false beliefs are those who deny God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

I’m a scientist first and foremost. Anyone who has ever known me can tell you that I don’t make a SINGLE decision without having as many of the facts as possible and then going where the facts lead.

Religious schools don’t bother me. Secular schools do.

By Joyce

April 18, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Catholic schools remain competitive due to the high-quality education they offer to their students. I hope we do see more of these schools here, as there is definitely a need. The only problem I see is with the cost. When I looked into one for my son, it was going to be over $600/month just for tuition. That’s less expensive than many of the established, non-Catholic private schools in metro Atlanta, but still pretty steep for a lot of families.

By Joyce

April 18, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Catholic schools remain competitive due to the high-quality education they offer to their students. I hope we do see more of these schools here, as there is definitely a need. The only problem I see is with the cost. When I looked into one for my son, it was going to be over $600/month just for tuition. That’s less expensive than many of the established, non-Catholic private schools in metro Atlanta, but still pretty steep for a lot of families.

By Joyce

April 18, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Sorry for the double-post!

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

V:

You seem to be a guy who would claim that everything Michael Moore says is fact.

Check out this movie

Heck, for showtimes in ATL, you can use this link

I might even go check it out myself this weekend. Believe it or not, Albany has it too!

By Kage

April 18, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this

“Malignant religious weeds”? Wow.

I’m a product of Catholic schools. I received an extraordinary education. The focus was not on indoctrinating children, it was on teaching us to think for ourselves - evaluating situations, exploring all sides of an issue, and coming to our own conclusions. While public schools were banning Mark Twain’s books, my Catholic schools were assigning not only classics like Huck Finn but also books like The Lords of Discipline. The sex ed class at the Catholic School was more informative than any I’ve seen in a public school.

I’m now a public school teacher. In thinking about where we will send my daughter in four years, I’m torn. I value Catholic education, but I also want to support public schools. I do know that I would never send my child to the middle schools in this area and am glad that we will have the option to send her to a Catholic school. Non-religious private schools just aren’t for me.

By JustMe

April 18, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

This was posted on the previous topic. But, Laura created a different one (not on this topic, which is VERY unfortunate!)…

NEW TOPIC

Just heard that the BOE of DeKalb County is voting this week on the following… While the State of GA voted to increase pay by 2 1/2 %, The BOE is voting to decrease the school system contribution by an equivalent amount! Thus, the net change in teacher pay will be ZERO!

This is robbery by the school system! They are taking State money intended for teachers and essentially pocketing it!

However, teachers in this State do not have a real teachers union (are you listening, AJC?). Otherwise, our union would be able to fight this type of abuse.

Once DeKalb Co. does this, it is only a matter of time before all school systems do this.

By Randy

April 18, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

The few atheists would wish that Christian schools would go out of business. However, most people realize GOD does exist and atheists denial of him is very narrow minded. I mean really, do atheists believe in MAGIC? Why I say that is when the universe was created, however long ago that was, either a Creator(GOD) created the universe, or it came around by magic. I personally have never seen things appear magically out of thin air, so I am going with a Creator.

By Thanks

April 18, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

I wouldn’t trade my 12 years of Catholic schooling in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s for anything in the world. It prepared me for any challenge I could ever face in life. I made life-long friends, was well prepared for pre-med and medical school, gained insight into the church and respect for its virtues and all the people who dedicate their lives to Catholic education. I’ll do all I can to promote Catholic education here in Georgia and throughout the US. It may not be for everyone, but families and children need choices in education - let’s make sure they continue to have these choices.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

Randy,

I don’t believe in magic, either. People who enjoy lables would probably label me an agnostic. I believe that something created the universe, but I also believe that we are unable to understand what they something is, nor does that something interact with our daily lives.

Without typing another novel …

People have a hard time understanding the vastness of time. The understanding that is required to process numbers of years that are in the billions is simply too much for people to handle. They tend to take the easy way out because they don’t like the idea that we are a tiny speck in the vastness of space. The easy way out is religion.

Yes, Jeff, I have heard of Expelled, Ben Stein’s movie on the subject. To be honest, I didn’t even click on your link, I immediately knew that was what you were talking about. Listen, people are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but I have a problem teaching something that has no more factual basis than The Odyssey or Gilgamesh. Those are both works of literature, and I consider the bible to be the same.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

I think I can address a number of questions raised here.

First of all, the cost. Traditionally, schools have been part of a parish operation, and always have run at a deficit. However, it was money all coming from the same “pot” as it were. Mom & Dad and family attended church and contributed financially to the parish. They sent their children to the Catholic school associated with the parish. The tuition was always less than the actual cost to educate the children of the school, but since the parish was there to cover any operating losses, it was all “in the family” and able to be absorbed.

Over the years, the model has changed. Catholic schools have always been parochial schools, defined as parish-based. Instead, many parents who are not members of the parish are using parochial schools as private schools. The are not the same.

As Catholic schools recognized that their student population was shifting from being the children of parishioners who contribute, to being more of a private-school alternative, the issue of funding arose. For instance, in one school in a major metropolitan school in the Northeast which closed in 2005, 40% of the student were Sikh. While they were welcome to attend, their tuition contribution, like everyone elses, covered at most 65% of the cost of their education. The rest was being made up for by the parish itself. Thus, the parish was financing the education of non-parishioners to an increasing extent, and it crippled a large number of parishes in a similar manner. This is very typical of what has happened to Catholic education in the Northeast; Catholic schools were being used as alternatives to public education by people who could not afford private education, and the parishes went into tremendous debt to keep their schools open, essentially financing a private school education for non-parishioners.

Coupled with this is the shift of new immigration from countries which large Catholic populations to in-migration from countries who practice non-Catholic faiths or which have no religion whatsover, such as China, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. These new waves of immigrants have no stake in either sending their children to a Catholic school or supporting a Catholic institution.

My husband is a teacher in a Catholic school here in Atlanta. He has found that he has greater academic freedom to teach and to address a variety of currently significant issues than he ever would in a public school.

Personally speaking, I was raised in a Southern town in which there was one Catholic school that went from K-6; after that, I transferred to public school. Those first seven years of education were so solid that I literally never cracked a book again in the final middle and high school years, garnering top grades and a prestigious college acceptance based on the strength of my primary, Catholic school education alone.

We support Catholic education and will continue to do so. We are both products of Catholic schools and recognize that Catholic education has a place in creating a rational, thinking, contributing, and morally compassed population.

By Lee

April 18, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

Indoctrination takes many forms. For the past 50 years, a politically correct, socialistic pathos has permeated public schools in an ever increasing manner. Much of what is wrong with today’s public schools can be directly linked to this ideology.

Frankly, I see a lot of Christian and non-denominational private schools popping up around me and it gives me hope. Finally, people are beginning to reach the saturation point and are reclaiming their rightful place as the primary decision maker regarding their children’s education.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

V:

Oh, so you have a problem with the teaching of evolution as well? (Since you ‘have a problem teaching something that has no more factual basis than The Odyssey or Gilgamesh’)

Glad to know we agree on something!

As a matter of fact, however, there is FAR more evidence that the Bible is accurate than any other work anywhere NEAR its age.

AND people are making new discoveries AS WE SPEAK that only confirm the Bible more and more.

So when you truly have an open mind and follow where the facts lead - as I did, several years ago - you find that the Bible is EXACTLY where they lead.

By The future is bright!

April 18, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

V:

You need to get a life and better understand the basic issue in a parent’s decision-making process for educating their children.

The issue is — the public school system where we live (DeKalb County) is not one we choose to subject our children to. Instead we decided since K to send our children to a Catholic school which offers a strong religious-based high-quality education.

Sure, tuition is a sacrifice, and heaven only know where our property taxes for education go; but again, we’ve weighed the cost-benefit to ourselves, our children, and made, what is to us, an easy choice — Catholic education!

By jim d

April 18, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

WTG V,

I thought I was the only “resident blog jerk” here that was allowed to stir the pot. :-)

Good job BTW.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

V for Vendetta,

I truly feel sorry for you. You wish to deny the same freedom of choice in education to others that you feel is your birthright.

Catholic education is not mandatory; for some reason, you are confusing Catholic eduation with compulsory religious education. Allow me to assure you than no one is required to attend Catholic schools here in the US.

For some strange reason, you also seem to equate Catholic education with a lack of intellectual curiosity or freedom. I’d suggest you take a moment or two to make contact with a Jesuit or two; ten minutes with a Jesuit with certainly disabuse you of that myth!

And you might be pleasantly surprised at the advanced levels of science (from biology to physics) offered during the course of a lifelong Catholic education. Please feel free to peruse the cirricula of our local Catholic high schools, of Fordham University in New York, of Catholic University in Washington. Please don’t speak from a position of ignorance and fear, but take some time to learn what Catholic education offers (and does not pick your pocket to offer!)

PS - it might interest you to know that I can personally vouch for the summer reading of one Catholic school to include none other than your beloved Gilgamesh!

By mmm

April 18, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

One of the reasons for the decline in the number of Catholic school is the decline in the number of nuns who have taken a vow of poverty and then word with great determination in these schools.

My charter school has a bunch of retired nuns who volunteer—-they are great, and a moral force to be dealt with. (and I don’t mean by indoctrination—just by their personal sense of purpose and focus)

I was at a party the other day and when I mentioned my school someone made the comment that “there are more nuns over their than as ST. Thomas Moore Catholic school.) Since these schools are starting to have to shop in the same market for their teachers and then charge tuition for what their expenses then are—-they are losing their ability to serve the poor.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

jim:

Hey! I’m one of the “resident blog jerk”s too!

Isn’t Get Schooled so lucky as to have all THREE of us? :P

By DB

April 18, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

OK, is it possible for this topic to be discussed without it degenerating into some sort of religious holy war? Please?

Jeff — I laughed at the peek of Ben Stein’s new film. I happen to love Ben Stein and his quirky, quick intelligence, and never more so than when he wrote his final column for E!Online, regarding his perception of “real stars”. It makes me cry everytime:

http://tinyurl.com/4ccnb2

But that’s off-topic. V, I refuse to get drawn into a discussion of “is there a God” or debating the existential details of faith with you, mostly because I will respect your opinion, and I will expect you to respect mine.

Having said that: My children attended (and attend) a religious-based school. Did I always agree with every tenet? No. Was every religious concept accepted without question? Uh — hardly. In fact, the sometimes interesting discrepancies in doctrine between our own faith and aspects taught in school were often the topic of spirited dinner debates, as well as reflective discussions in quiet times. The differences and thoughtful discussion of those differences helped, I believe, to make my children discerning, open and tolerant of other’s belief systems (or, in some cases, their lack of belief systems :-)

I happen to believe in religious training for children - I don’t really much care which religion, although, like anyone, I have my preferences. :-) I believe that it provides a moral framework from which children can grow and learn how to interact with the world and the people in it. As with anything involving children, their perception and understanding of that moral framework changes and shifts as they get older. I enrolled my children in a religion-based school for several reasons, one of which was to become part of an enduring life experience (education) which helped reinforce and support our family’s value system.

And, V, you’ll be pleased to know that, in spite of his persistent exposure to what you deem religious fairy tales, one of my son’s favorite summer reading books was “Atlas Shrugged” :-)

By M

April 18, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

I have to agree with V regarding the indoctrination of religion. Children should be exposed to all facets of life in school, not just one religious viewpoint or another. We don’t want more mindless sheep, we want thinking, contributing children. There is a place for such religious indoctrimation, church, not school.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

mmm- you raise an excellent point, and as I didn’t finish my earlier thought about cost basis of Catholic education, it’s an appropriate jumping-off point.

Yes, Catholic education benefitted greatly from the dedication and low-cost of the religious; mainly nuns, but also including brothers and priests, religious brought a host of talent to Catholic classrooms into the 1970’s. The abrupt dropoff in religious vocations, particularly in women, definitely has led to a decline in the cost-effectiveness of running a Catholic school.

And finally, to the point about parochial schools being used as private schools by non-parishioners, a number of solutions are being tried for that. One, of course, is to charge in tuition what the education actually costs, since the parishes cannot continue to subsidize students from non-parish families. I suspect that is what is facing “Joyce” above; the Catholic schools she has investigated charge the cost of education rather than the subsidized one that we who were educated in the 1960’s and 1970’s enjoyed. Another alternative which hasn’t worked is to charge a two-tier tuition, one for parishioners and one for non-parishioners. Since we don’t take attendance in the Catholic church, and participation can take many forms of contribution beyond financial, this can be unfair on several levels.

So yes, the cost is there: but the value - the value is literally beyond price.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

anyone care what I think?

Naw—didn’t think so. But here’s a thought anyway!

Parents should be allowed to choose the type of education they want for their children including a religious based education, without interference from anyone else. That right should include allowing the money earmarked for that child to follow the child to whatever school is elected.

But since that isn’t a popular opinon here on these blogs, y’all have fun chewing that one up too.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

DB:

That was actually a very good read. I may well have to go out and use my BAMM discount card on it! (It would be only the second non-fiction I have read this year, of the 16 so far!)

By teach1

April 18, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

As a product of catholic schools, 3rd grade -Masters program, I can say the education that I received was outstanding. I am no longer attending a Catholic church but feel the Christian background given me through the school has positively impacted me for life. I only hope more children can afford the opportunities the Catholic schools offer.

V- I wish you a happy life because that is ALL you have to look forward to. I have an eternity and will live my life accordingly.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Sigh.

M - Catholic school is not mandatory or compulsory. We are talking about Catholic education here, wherein parents choose and pay for education. Not public school.

Goodness.

Catholic schools must adhere to the same academic standards as public schools in order to award diplomas; they provide extra education in other matters. For instance, they may require Latin or another language, instead of it being optional as may be at a public school.

If you do not wish for your children to have such religious indoctrination, then do not send them to any parochial or religious-based educational institution.

You may not, however, deny that right to others.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Yo Jeff,

Don’t think so! I’ve reserved that title. Physco is stii open though :-)

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Let me point out, as many have said, that there is a difference between catholic school and a proprietary religious education. Also, as some of said, considering horrible state of our public education system, doesn’t it make sense to have a choice in our children’s educational institutions. To that degree, I completely agree. I’m simply bemoaning the fact that a large number of the alternative choices tend to be private schools with religious affiliations.

I completely respect everyone’s views on the topic, and while I find stirring the pot fun at times, I don’t wish this to devolve into a “is there or isn’t there” a god or something along those lines.

Lee is also correct. There is a whole different kind of indoctrination taking place within our current public school system. Once again, I feel during the course of discussing a problem in education we’ve come up with more questions than answers.

Or maybe I’m just in a bad mood today. :-)

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

K.Irene:

Do Catholics have any form of Sunday School type meetings?

I know most Baptist churches I have attended never kept real track of who came to the worhsip services (though in the smaller churches, everybody knew everybody, but there was still nothing ‘official’), but certain things you wanted to do required that you show up for Sunday School at various points. (Such as playing on the church softball team. Anybody could join the team, but you had to be at Sunday School twice a month or you couldn’t play.)

That could solve the dilemma of the two tiered structure. (And indeed it is the exact way most two tiered structures of Baptist private schools I know of operate. Other schools, mainly at the college level, also require that you financially support your local church, and your pastor has to send in a letter verifying this.)

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Physco (rhymes with fizzco)….

I like!

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Jeff - yes, we have “Sunday School” meetings. It’s called “Catechism,” and it is offered to students who attend public school and thereby need religious education to supplement their public school experience.

However, we don’t deny the opportunity to participate in parish activities based on participation in other parish activities. I think the system you describe has merit to a degree, but I’m certain that it’s sensitive as to how much can be contributed by a family.

I think we’re talking about Catholic education below the college threshold here.

Excellent thoughts.

By Mike K.

April 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

The only thing missing now is that anti-Catholic loon from Wooten’s blog.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

KIrene:

My thinking is that if the Catholics had something similar to the Sunday School concept (which evidently they do not), it could work the same way as the Protestants use Sunday School for their private schools. (Namely, you attend Sunday School on a regular basis, you get the discounted rate. If you don’t, you don’t.)

In most cases I am familiar with, the AMOUNT you give to your church isn’t as important as the PERCENTAGE. 10% across the board, whether you are making $1 or $1 Billion. Note that various churches carry this to varying degrees. I’ve known private schools where you just have to say you do all the way to schools that want your church’s record of your giving as well as your IRS returns to verify income and giving percentages.

Personally, I’d just as soon leave my kids in public school as to send them to a private school. What many don’t talk about is that you will see most of the same problems in either location, the private schools are just better at hiding it. And since they’re going to be in that environment anyway, why bother paying all the extra money?

By Benedict XVI

April 18, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Catholicae disciplina per omnia saecula saeculorum.

By publicenemynumberone

April 18, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

My little boy goes to Catholic school in Cobb County. He couldn’t be happier. (And my wife and me as well). It’s the best 5K I spend a year.

By Joyce

April 18, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

KIrene: Thanks for all the explanation. I attended Catholic school for 4 years in the 70s and taught in a Catholic school for 8 years, but never really had to think concretely about tuition/funding until I became a parent. Catholic schools do an excellent job educating their students; when I taught, I also discovered greater academic freedom in some ways than my public-school counterparts reported. There are just certain things that can’t be taught without a (sometimes religious) context, and the teachers I knew in public school couldn’t have touched some of the things we did in my Catholic school with a 10-foot pole!

By Sara

April 18, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

The best way to increase enrollment in Catholic schools is to introduce school voucher programs. I went to Catholic Grade School and High School in the Bronx. My Mother made the sacrifice to send me to Catholic Schools since the public schools in my district were horrendous. My Catholic High School has seen a drop in enrollment which is sad since the school has a long history of more than 90% of its graduates attending college which considering the neighborhoods these kids come from is a big deal. I hope to send my children to Catholic school as well. The stories I hear about the schools and school boards in the Atlanta area frighten me.

By j.h.

April 18, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Irene, My husband & I are also products of Catholic education as well as our children, of which we are very thankful for. We couldn’t afford the tuition like many others but we sacrificed & got through it. My comment to you is that my husband & I are both of Middle-Eastern descent & are Catholic. All our ancestors were Catholic. We still have an influx of Catholics joining our Church who are currently immigrating from the Middle East. Not all people in that region are Moslem (although most people don’t know that). To say that “those countries have no religion at all” is not correct. Catholics are outnumbered now in the Middle East, but they do exist.

On the other hand, thank you for defending the Catholic school education.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

K Irene,

I think the problem with the definitions is somewhat a non-issue. Would it not be true to say that at a Catholic school there would be MORE religious education than at a public school? I am in no way saying that the quality of the education is in question. In fact, quite the opposite. I would agree with those who say the quality of education may be superior in many cases.

Again, isn’t it safe to say that at a Catholic school there would be more emphasis placed on religion, as opposed to a public school where there is no emphasis placed on religion (other than its historical significance)?

I also want to point out again what Lee said earlier. There is a significant amount of indoctrination that takes place in our public school system as well, it’s just a different kind.

Maybe that’s why people like me are frustrated: the only alternatives to public education are expensive, few and far between, and don’t necessarily jive with some people’s personal views.

By Political Foreskin

April 18, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

Gilgamesh and Bible: these both started out as oral traditions, so there’s no way to tell who hacked from whom.

Catholic Church: I was raised by nuns. I always attended catholic schools. I never really got along with them. When I graduated high school, the doctors told me it would be safer just to leave the rulers where the nuns had put them.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

V:

Relgion is preached by public school every day.

It is the religion of humanism.

You want ‘separation of church and state’?

Start crying out as loudly against humanism in the schools as you are Christianity.

By high school teacher

April 18, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Just my two cents, V, and I attempt to explain a viewpoint, not engage in holy war :)

From a Christian parent’s perspective, I believe that the Bible is Truth. Whether or not we agree on that point is moot for the moment. As I said, I believe that what the Bible says is Truth. Therefore, I want to expose my children to the Truth as well. I am not intentionally creating mindless creatures who do what I say or what the Bible says simply because they should follow the rules. Rather, I am doing what I think is best for my children. I care about their salvation. I don’t feel that I am making sheep out of them. Most Christians I know are intelligent free-thinkers who happen to believe in God and Jesus. Please don’t think of Christian parents as indoctrinating their children for the sole purpose of creating a flock of sheep.

If you felt that you truly knew the secret to eternal life, wouldn’t you want to share it with as many people as you know, espeically your children?

By It's getting worse...

April 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

Overall the underlying theme is that it’s unfortunate that most of us do not have confidence in the public school system (or administration) in the Atlanta/inside 285 area and are “forced” to chose private school from K-12…

My heart goes out to those trapped in the existing Atlanta area public school system, e.g., Clayton County and its sad definition of a school board.

By SFMom

April 18, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

My daughter attended Catholic school in elementary and it was really a struggle to keep her in. She’s now in a public middle school and it’s not that great. Catholic schools provide discipline. If students are disciplined, teachers can teach.

I’ve learned my lesson, so my son will go to Catholic school starting in 6th grade. Since he’s in Speech, he is eligible for the special ed. voucher even though he’s also in the gifted program. I am so happy, because my teacher’s salary can’t handle it. And my daughter has one year in our public high school. If my husband and I don’t like it, she’ll be back in Catholic school. Remember - where there is religion, there is discipline!

By jim d

April 18, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

HST,

Indeed, sharing isn’t the same as making the choice. That belongs to the individual.

From my expierence however, I am quite familar with a christian school that exists in Gwinnett county and isn’t catholic. I know well what they teach and yes it is indoctrination. After attending this particular school for a few years my child was appalled when going back to public school that the public schools taught evolution. It took several long conversations to convince him to listen and decide for himself how it all fit together.

By JustMe

April 18, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

It’s getting worse:

Please, please do NOT lump all schools in an area together. There are top rated schools throughout Atlanta and its area inside 285. Many high schools are top ranked by NewsWeek. And, these are public schools that succeed in spite of the crazy school systems and administrations. The teachers in those successful schools are amazing and the students (and their parents) are really focused on education.

As I have mentioned before, my PUBLIC high school inside of 285 has many students that have transferred from PRIVATE high schools because they were not getting the education they expected or needed.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

A fine state of affairs when teachers feel this way.

“my son will go to Catholic school”

“My daughter attended Catholic school”

“my teacher’s salary can’t handle it”

This speeks more to the issues than anything anyone else has stated on this blog! Get a clue folks, every child deserves an education, not just those that the government see’s fit to educate. There is only one answer that can assure every child is offered the same opportunity. That answer is CHOICE!

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

high school teacher,

Absolutely! I think where people have gotten the wrong idea is the part where I was rather angrily attacking religion and churches. Most chose to focus on those statements. The truth is, I am dismayed simply because of a lack of choice (as Jim D likes to point out!). If the public system has let you down, the people deserve alternatives—a variety of alternatives. Many private schools are religiously affiliated.

Jeff, Lol, humanism. A bit of a weak argument, don’t you think?

Political Foreskin (nice name). By pointing out that Gilgamesh and the bible both began as oral traditions, I think you’ve more or less proved my point. The Odyssey and Beowulf both began that way as well.

By Jeff

April 18, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

V:

It isn’t a ‘weak argument’, it is exactly what is happening.

You either acknowledge God as God or you proclaim that humans are God.

Judeo-Christian (including Muslim) relgions acknowledge God as God.

Everything else is humanist.

In any case, if a school is not Christian it is by default humanist.

And both are religions.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Whoa, there Jeff,

By default a religion? A bit of a stretch even for you.

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Really, Jeff?

No middle ground? :-)

By jim d

April 18, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

“Judeo-Christian (including Muslim) relgions acknowledge God as God.”

“if a school is not Christian it is by default humanist.”

LOL, Where do you come up with this stuff? According to those two statements a jewish school is aa humanist school? Thats some pretty funny stuff you are aware people of different religions can and do believe in the same God, but that only christians believe “That Jesus was the christ”? (thus the moniker of Christian.)

By high school teacher

April 18, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

So what you’re saying V, is that there should be more secular private schools as options for those who wish to flee from public school? I get it!

Jimd, with school choice, exactly what would parents use as the merits of School X versus School Y? Test scores? Demographics? Teacher quality? Curriculum offering? All of the above? Would you completely eliminate school districts? Just wondering.

By Mark

April 18, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

How can anyone call a catholic school a learning institution when they teach about a magical man in the sky that doesn’t exist? They are teaching falsehoods.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

HST,

Whatever deciding factor they feel is most important to them. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Oh yeah and Yes.

Hope that covers everything.

By jim d

April 18, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Mark,

and that harms you how?

By Thrash1

April 18, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

V,

Like many other posters here, I too went to a Catholic school. We took seven classes each quarter and in two of those quarters we were required to take a religion course. As a non-catholic we were given a slightly different course load for religion classes. Examples of these classes are “comparative religion” where we studied nearly every major religion in the world - in a seemingly non-biased manner, more factual about what they believed, did, and why. Additionally, we took philosophy classes studying the greats from Plato to Nietzsche and existentialism.

What I got from my “Catholic” education was an open mind, tolerance, and understanding for those who have differing beliefs, and not a biased view of Christians vs. those damned to hell…

That being said, not every Catholic school is perfect, nor every public school a failure.

I am thankful my parents found a way to send me to Marist. Without the supportive environment I never would have developed the ability to learn and think for myself.

Thanks for your input, it makes for a lively discussion.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

j.h.

I apologize if you were offended by my remarks, which I have reproduced in their entirety below:

• to in-migration from countries who practice non-Catholic faiths or which have no religion whatsover, such as China, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia.*

The key words in the paragraph above are * countries who practice non-Catholic faiths OR which have no religion whatsover…*

My point being that the areas of heaviest in-migration (short of Central and South American in-migration) are less Catholic-centric than the Irish, Poles, Italians and Germans who largely founded and fostered the Catholic educational system in the US. It’s simply a progression, a demographic observation.

I am in awe of the journey that you and your husband have made in remaining faithful while in an area that is not considered to be supportive of Christian or Catholic sects. You and your family are truly modern-day witnesses to the Faith.

By K. Irene Prpic

April 18, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Last post of the day - I swear.

Now, another point. What about in-migration from Central and South American countries, generally considered a bulwark of Catholicism? Would not in-migration from these areas benefit the Catholic school system?

The answer is no. As I mentioned earlier, parochial schools are exactly that, parish-based. The parishes are the primary source of funding for Catholic schools, as tuition does not cover the total cost. So how do parishes fare financially when the parish grows from migration?

In Central and South America, religion is state-sponsored, meaning that the government funds the religions and churches in their country. Migrants from those countries are accustomed to the churches (all of ‘em) being funded by the central government, and the churches serve a function as essentially an arm of the government, supplying needed social services.

Emigrants from these regions hold the belief that, when they attend Mass and send their children to Catholic school, that the government is somehow sending a support check to each parish and to the Diocese to help fund these institutions. As we all know, that is not the situation here in the US, with separation of church and state.

Studies have been done which show that it takes an average of 20 years for someone who has migrated from Central or South America to behind to financially support the parish in which they attend. This is not due to any income restrictions, as Catholics of the prior centuries, equally poor, contributed heavily to their church. It is because it takes that period of time for the awareness to have built that the Church is not funded by the government, and requires support from the parishioners. (Whereas earlier migration populations knew for dmnd sure that, for instance, Merry Olde England wasn’t paying a shilling to support the Catholic Church in occupied Ireland!)

So – we come back to the model that the parish can no longer subsidize the schools. And with that in mind, the schools have to be self supporting.

And that, like so much, is a choice faced by parents wishing to send their children to Catholic school. While the taxes that Catholic parents pay are no different than for anyone else, their share of the money that goes to the public school system is a taxation without benefit, since in addition to the taxes, they are paying for tuition. Some might say this is double taxation, but I don’t believe it is. Catholic school tuition is a taxation by personal choice. While I personally support the concept of vouchers, I can see where it becomes a minefield and could drain funding from public schools. I don’t even want to go there – talk about a third rail!

By Tony C.

April 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Shocker.

As I read your 1st paragraph V., I just knew you were going to bring up Ayn Rand. It is amusing to me how most folks that are upset by organized religion due to (paraphrasing here) “dogma overload” all point to Ayn Rand. I do give you kudos for not mentioning Atlas Shrugged…BUUUUUT I just why it is that almost all of the anti-religion folks always point to Ayn Rand? No doubt, she has something to say, but there are many other authors and true philosophers who present positive arguements for rational deduction. Many of them in fact, were products of Catholic educations.

My brother and I both went to private schools, he went 1-12 in Catholic school-I went to various private schools with breif stints in public school.

Guess which one of us is basically an agnostic/atheist such as your position seems to be V.???

My brother, the product of the “dogma factory” you rail against. Where did he get the critical thinking and analytical skills he used to arrive at that position-yep, Catholic schools.

While I understand and completely empathize with your stand point on the “dark side” of religious/political powerbases here in GA, which we see from your local town hall all the way to the govenor’s mansion, I don’t think that Catholic schools are really part of that. Just for kicks V. I challenge to read up on the Jesuit and Benadictine educational traditions and methods. While there are obviously some nasty things therein I will not defend ( excessive and regular corporal punishment springs to mind), I think you’ll be very surprised by what you find.

Think about it, where did Descartes, Neitsche, even Rand and countless other pillars of “the bright movement“‘s dogma get their training? If not in a Catholic church directly, they were certainly taught by Catholic educators.

I’m sure that you and I share many similar viewpoints-but I don’t think that Catholic schools perpetuate the viewpoints you seem to think they do. The strict viewpoint that creation occurred as described in the old testament is not in the curriculumn. Darwin is. When studying religion, yes there is a definite emphasis on Catholocism, but there is also objective fact-based examinations of ALL other major religions. I’d be willing to bet that a senior at St. Pius (Flaghsip HS for Atlanta Archdiocese) is as well informed if not more knowledgeable about say, Islam than most people you know are.

Don’t let those who subvert God’s words and messages to justify their political/social agendas to color your thinking regarding ALL religious education.

Apologies for the novella, but I just had to say something

By HS Teacher Too

April 18, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

jim d,

I think I know of which school you speak. I have had the experience of seeing some of their textbooks, etc., as well — and I can tell you that I agree that what they teach is indoctrination, through every subject. (A science book that mentions God’s work at every turn — I don’t like that.) By contrast, most Catholic schools use “real” textbooks and supplement the facts with Catholic teachings. So, while at a Catholic school the teachers may well reinforce that we are all God’s creatures, the chemistry book will be a chemisty book, without references to religion.

I probably just opened a big can of worms there, but … c’est la vie.

Thank you, K. Irene, for your discussion today. It has been informative, interesting, and well-written. What a nice change!

By John

April 18, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

My wife and I have our kids enrolled in a local Catholic school. The education the kids receive on a per dollar basis is superlative. At $10 K per kid, it is well within our family budget. Non-parishioners pay $15K per child to offset the subsidy.

Regarding the religious aspect of the kid’s education, they study comparative religion as well as agnosticism. Our kids are free thinkers and I’m not sure they actually believe that the world was magicked into existence by an invisible sky pixie. As my parish priest likes to say, “I don’t believe in god, but I do believe in youtube!” Or maybe it’s the other way around. :-)

By Tony

April 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

“… the money earmarked for that child to follow the child to whatever school is elected.”

School funding is not earmarked for specific children. The state estimates its version of what it will pay, then through the magical distribution formula called QBE, the money is divided to the school systems.

JM - there is a law that prevents school systems from cutting the supplement to offset a raise. I’ll check the reference and post it for you.

By Tony

April 18, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this

For JM: TITLE 20. EDUCATION
CHAPTER 2. ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION
ARTICLE 6. QUALITY BASIC EDUCATION
PART 6. EMPLOYMENT
SUBPART 2. CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT

O.C.G.A. § 20-2-212 (2007)

(b) Local units of administration may supplement the salaries of personnel subject to the schedule of minimum salaries under subsection (a) of this Code section and, in fixing the amount of those supplements, may take into consideration the nature of duties to be performed, the responsibility of the position held, the subject matter or grades to be taught, and the experience and performance of the particular employee whose salary is being supplemented. In any fiscal year in which such personnel receive an increase under the minimum salary schedule, a local unit of administration shall not decrease any local salary supplement for such personnel below the local supplement amount received in the immediately preceding fiscal year by those personnel of that local unit of administration unless such local unit of administration has conducted at least two public hearings regarding such decrease, notice of which hearings, including the time, place, agenda, and specific subject matter of the meeting, the local unit shall cause to be published in the legal organ of the county which is the legal situs of such local unit one time at least seven days prior to the date such hearings are to be held. Written notice shall be provided to each employee subject to the schedule of minimum salaries under subsection (a) of this Code section at least seven days prior to the date of the hearings. Each such hearing shall be held and shall commence after school hours to allow certificated and noncertificated personnel to attend.

By SET

April 18, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this

Catholic Schools in California used to be the primary alternative to out-of-control public schools. In later years people just moved out of the urban core to new developments that didn’t have ghetto people or values. Now that the ghetto has spread it remains to see what will be the flight school system of choice.

We could see the colleges starting high school programs - some of our Junior Colleges have high school classes now. We could see the rise of Internet Schools run by accredited private schools. I think that’s coming.

Catholic High Schools still are very strong in CA. They expel people and can be picky on who they let in. They have waiting lists. The Catholic grade schools seems to be endangered for some reason. Not enough money to keep them open now that the Nuns are gone. People will pay $20k a year for a Catholic high school student but not a Catholic 4th grader it seems.

Brave New World!

By Another DeKalb Teacher

April 18, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this

Thanks, for the information, Tony, but the reason that we know about their plans to cut out our raise is that they have scheduled the required meetings. Now, as we all know, they only have to hold the vent sessions, they do not have to change their mind because of them. That is exactly what these meetings are, and as far as the Board of Education is concerned, they might as well be cardboard cutouts behind the big table instead of people for all they intend to listen.

However, I thank the DeKalb County Board of Education for effectively reducing our salary (after insurance premiums go up next year especially), because for so long they have paid more than the county in which I actually reside. As the gas prices rose, I actually started trying to determine if taking a pay cut to work in my county of residence would be offset by the savings in transportation costs. However, Dr. Crawford Lewis and the Board of Education have saved me the hassle of thinking, because now my county of residence will be paying their teachers as much as DeKalb County. This means that as soon as I complete my contractual agreement with DeKalb County that I can refuse a further contract without worrying about how to make up the difference in pay.

I would have appreciated a bit more transparency from my employer when the Board demanded that we accept a contract or resign in February. However, I now know what I will tell them next January (they move it up every year).

After all, with the new requirements of four years of science going into effect soon statewide, physics and chemistry teachers will be needed. I guess they just will not be needed by DeKalb.

By tchan

April 18, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

since parochial schools in the south are WAY over priced, i can absolutely see people going to more non denominational schools. Tuition in the Atlanta area is absolutely ridiculous when compared to schools in the Midwest and Northeast where my attended school

By V for Vendetta

April 18, 2008 8:56 PM | Link to this

Tony C.

Thanks for the input and the story. To be honest, the main reason I mentioned Rand is because I just finished up Anthem with my class. But I get your point, and it’s a good one.

As I said a little earlier today, I might come off as venomous sometimes (OK, a LOT of the time), but I hold no grudges against anyone for their beliefs. You make some excellent points in your post, and I’m glad our sparring today has drawn people like you and K Irene out to chat. I guess the main thing I’m complaining about is the lack of a solid secular alternative to public school. Others, like yourself, have said that the Catholic education they received was probably better than the equivalent public education—and considering the state of public ed., rightly so!

I guess if you take personal religious beliefs out of the equation, it all boils down to quality, right? Maybe I’m just jealous that the Catholic schools seem to be providing a better quality education! Seriously. If I take my own advice, and put my own beliefs aside for a moment, I really am jealous of the quality education a school like Marist can provide.

Oh, and I’ll try to work Atlas Shrugged into a future post somehow. LOL, that cracked me up. I do enjoy reading pieces on Rand and Objectivism, but I didn’t want to open up the philosophical AND religious debates. Can you only imagine!?

:-)

By THE CATHOLIC HAMMER

April 18, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Hey V:

Guy Fawkes was a counter-revolutionary Catholic.

You’re so dumb, I believe you to be retarded; you are a typical Protestant.

By Richard

April 18, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

The decline of the parochial schools is another sign of the decline of the the American culture.

By Sad But True

April 19, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Hammer - Totally inappropriate comment.

By JoTex

April 19, 2008 1:58 AM | Link to this

So, if you feel that you do not want your children “indoctrinated,” don’t send them to a religous school. While that is not the sole purpose of Catholic schools, but to ensure children receive top notch academic instruction in a safe, loving, environment, the U.S. Constitution does allow us the right (to chose “indoctrination” in a chosen faith). Did you not learn that in your “secular” school?

By JoTex

April 19, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this

And one more thing if I may. It may be of interest to know that my child’s Catholic school teaches the theory of evolution as it is part of the science curriculum. The miracle of God’s creation is left for discussion in religion class, while the debate on the controversy is left for social studies. That’s certainly more than my kid would be able to learn in many public schools in this country.

By Jeff

April 19, 2008 5:52 AM | Link to this

V:

Ever wonder why so many ‘intelligent’ people have a hard time getting a proper view of God?

Same reason many think programming is so hard.

The truth is so simple, yet people want - for whatever reason - to make it so much more complex than it actually is.

The fact of the matter is that the entire Bible (and all of human history) can be summed up in two 3-word statements:

God is Holy.

God is Love.

A knowledge of his Holiness without a knowledge of his Love produces the religions that base salvation on works (Judaism, Islam, even certain branches of Christianity such as Catholicism and Methodism).

A knowledge of his Love without a knowledge of his Holiness produces the ‘feel good’ religions (New Age, humanism, ‘prosperity theology’ within Christianity).

And a knowledge of neither, in addition to a rejection of the knowledge of his Power, produces the rest (Darwinism, some elements of humanism, atheism, agnosticism, etc).

It is his Holiness that condemns us.

It is his Love that saves us.

But, just as you would say a human father who doesn’t place rules on his children isn’t a good father, even so the Heavenly Father must place rules upon his Children. And indeed, He has only placed a single rule on us in regards to Salvation: We must accept that He became flesh and died himself for our sins. Once that issue is settled, everything else can be forgiven.

Christians that preach that there are ‘unpardonable’ sins deny the Power of God. For in truth, there is only a single unpardonable sin, and it is truly only this sin that sends anyone to Hell. And that sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ.

By C.R.H.

April 19, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

Dekalb teacher, you should be able to resign effective at the end of this contract year until May 1st (basically void next year’s contract). I believe that is also a law, maybe Tony can answer that as well. Back on subject…I pretty much believe in god about as much as I believe in Santa & the tooth fairy. I taught at a Catholic school and if it weren’t for the steep cut in pay, I wouldn’t hesitate to go back to one. I respect other’s beliefs even if I don’t share those beliefs. The main reason the education at MOST Catholic schools is decent (or outstanding in some cases) is because the parents pay and the schools SELECT who comes in. If you are invested (tuition) in something, you generally are going to be more involved and have some expectations of the school and your kid! Not to mention the school selects their student body and can eliminate the problems quickly. parents won’t tolerate the weak academic students or the behavior problems in their child’s classes. Having said all that there were a lot of kids who had serious drug and alcohol issues at the Catholic school I taught at, they were pretty good at functioning and better at being descrete about it.

By Bella

April 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

Catholic schools are very sin-based, just like the Catholic Church. I know because I am a product of both. I spent years as an adult in therapy to develop self-esteem and self-love that was denied me by my Catholic upbringing. I would never want any child to grow up believing they were unworthy.

By WFC

April 19, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

I taught and coached at St. Pius X in the 1980’s and it was far and away the most intellectual environment I’ve ever been in. Chattahoochee and Northview (I also taught in these “crown jewels” of the Fulton public system) pale in comparison. Then stuff happened.

• Thus came a dearth of nuns, priests and brothers. The church had to begin to pay the real cost of instruction.

• The poor soon discovered that they couldn’t pay “private schol” tuition.

  The principal, Father Terry, had a “road to Taursus” moment and decided that the school had become too “secular.” Baba bing!

So it goes.

By V for Vendetta

April 19, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Holy cow, Jeff.

I’ll refrain from comment.

By Lee

April 19, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Holy cow, V? So, does this mean you’re Hindu? :)

By JCinDuluth

April 19, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

As one who has had SIXTEEN years of Catholic education (including Jesuit) and one who supports Catholic education for his children, why should it matter to others what current state of affairs the Catholic education is in (or not in)? I believe any parent who cares should have the freedom to send his or her kids to whatever educational institution s/he wishes. I believe that non-Catholic schools are equally important in that they teach religion and a curriculum that is in tune with the wishes of those parents that send their children there. OH, and by the way, I had black classmates (here in the South!) long before integration!! To the idiotic atheists, agnostics and others who want to rant about this subject: Leave us alone and let us educate OUR children in a manner that fits our beliefs. If you don’t like it, go to H and change subjects like “Why I pee in the bed at night,” or, “Why I can’t stop sucking my thumb,” or, “Why don’t people listen to my ignorant ravings.” Guaranteed, there are others out there that would blog with you all day! JCinDuluth

By subject change??

April 19, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Well, it seems this topic has been addressed with, for the most part, some good discussion and points.

Might I suggest a blog subject change (most likely it’s me venting). For the life of me I can’t understand why, what seems to be a daily occurrence, AJC.com will have at least one hip-hop related story or photo. In general, it seems hip-hop is at the bottom level of interest for the readership/demographics of AJC.com???

By catholic kid

April 19, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

Catholic education has an outstanding tradition in this country. Schools such as Notre Dame, Georgetown and Catholic University are reknown for their scholarship and fostering of academic intellects.

Unfortunately, the South, and particularly the Atlanta area, does not have a long tradition with Catholic schools. Unlike Boston and New York, Catholic schools in the Atlanta area, were few and far between. It is only recently that the Church has expanded its schools.

With the recent influx of new residents, the Catholic church in Atlanta has tried to keep up. But buildings cost money, so does land and so do quality teachers. Thus, schools here are more expensive, and the model for parrish support has been lifted.

But dollar for dollar, Catholic schools produce results.If you look at the per student expense in the city of Atlanta and the per student expense in Catholic schools, there’s no comparison. They achieve more with less.

Perhaps it is the age old adage used by the Jesuits, “Give me the child, and I will give you back the man.” With discipline, comes a dicisplined mind. Catholic education works. I only wish to God I could have afforded more of it for all of my children.

By Tommy

April 19, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

the “teaching” of religion in any form is the root of evil…figure whatever you want to figure out own your own…catholic schools, christian schools- they are for and by the weak minded and insecure……

By nowwaitaminute

April 20, 2008 7:41 AM | Link to this

First off, I disagree with the Catholic Church about almost everything. I believe in God and it pretty much stops there. I think Catholicism has caused far more harm than good in this world. HOWEVER, people have a right to send their kids to any private school they can pay for and be accepted to. Almost ALL private schools have some type of religious charter in their backgrounds, but most decent ones are in the business of good education, not indoctrination, of their students. While I would most likely never send my child to a Catholic school, I know many who have attended and received an outstanding education. From reading these comments I just don’t understand why others can’t “leave it alone” when it comes to things they may not agree with but NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO DO! No one is mandating that our public or charter schools go Catholic. As far as being bothered by so many religious schools in the southeast -have you checked the number of Catholic schools (not to mention others) in New York City and elsewhere in the nation? There are quite a few. And one more point, I know at least one Catholic school here (not sure if this is the norm) where they have an elective class period of Catholic/religious instruction. IF you or your child do not wish to attend this class, another elective choice -non-religious -is provided. By freaking out and acting as if we’re all about to be subjected to the Inquisition, you non-religious folks make us all look as hateful and close-minded as the people you fear are being graduated from Catholic school.

By Reality Check

April 20, 2008 7:47 AM | Link to this

Catholic Kid and others make an excellent point. Take a look at the current Atlanta School Guide re: Spending per Student. As Catholic Kid notes “dollar for dollar, Catholic schools produce results”. For example, Spending per Student, include Dekalb County - $8,187; Fulton - $9,057; Atlanta Public - $11,895; Decatur City - $13,373.

I’m only frustrated that my property taxes continue to increase, i.e., we pay for public school education; however, because of our concerns with the current public school education, politics, administration, environment, etc. we chose to send our children to Catholic school.

By daniel kane

April 20, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Put two catholic nuns or priests in charge of the Atlanta Public School System and you will dramatic results. I am the product of catholic schools. Catholic school made law school and the practice of law easy. In catholic school the students are taught discipline, the valve of education, manners, respect of family, community and authority. There is a catholic culture that works as a compliment to an organized, successful society. My children go to catholic school and do community service, help the poor, assist the needy, as part of their curriculum. Catholic education is exceptional.

By WFC

April 20, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

DANIEL KANE: right on! Sisters Rita, Dawn, Kathy et al from my days at Pius in the 1980’s would have the Atlanta Public Schools whipped into shape in about two years!

By mr. nice

April 20, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

I would be uneasy about sending my son to a Catholic school. You read too much about priests that like young boys.

By Voice of Reason

April 20, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

I went to catholic school for 12 years, long time ago, LOL. But I became a Baptist in 10th grade and by the way the nuns at my school treated me, you’d think I’d cursed the Virgin Mary! Overall though, I think Catholicism is a religion that is full of it. They absolve themselves in their minds of their own sins, make excuses for themselves, don’t like to see their own truths—and I’m talking about friends of mine who are Catholic. The got a divorce, but “Nooo! It’s an annulment.” NO, fool, you got divorced! Their misrepresentation of the facts to suit what makes them feel comfortable is laughable. It’s endemic in their thinking. Their “homilies” are, what, 5-10 minutes max? You can’t get anything from that.

I don’t need a priest to confess my sins to; I have God, Jesus. And I’ve just come to believe that so many of these denominations—ALL of them, and their leaders—are full of crap. That’s why I’m not getting my private parts excited with the likes of Eddie Long, Paulk, Dollar, Paula White or any of the others. My motto now: God I love, but man’s religion can jack you up!” God meets me right here. Preachers, priests are all just men, etc. They have the same desires and (mis)deeds as non-clergy. And let priests marry; maybe then they’ll leave kids alone.

By Lane

April 20, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

I find it very interesting and telling that those of us who went to Catholic school value their education and recognize that its focus was on teaching us to think for ourselves - evaluating situations, exploring all sides of an issue, and coming to our own conclusions. Its also interesting that the average standardized test scores of catholic school students is higher than those of public school students. It seems to be those who didn’t have the benefit of a catholic school education who are most critical and least understanding on even the issue of catholic schools - ignorance comes to mind… maybe there is a correlation here.

By dougmo

April 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

I would love to send my kids to a Catholic school. The quality of education is soooo much better. Private and religious schools have the highest acceptance rate to colleges. There are schools in the metro aera that have a 100% acceptance rate.

By Kage

April 20, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

WFC - I graduated from Pius in ‘89. You just sent a shudder up my spine with the mention of Sr. Dawn! You’re right, though, she could whip the kids I teach into shape. Maybe the vow of poverty makes nuns less likely to care about lawsuits with which we are constantly threatened.

By SCY

April 20, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

Why are some atheists so bitter? If “V for Vendetta” actually read Ayn Rand he would discover that Objectivism in know way advocates using the power of the state to impose its will on others. Perhaps the freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. Imagine if someone said that Blacks or Jews or Hispanics “pepper the state like malignant…weeds.”

I’m not Catholic and would never send my child to a Catholic school but I do support the notion of freedom. Including the freedom of parents to decide how best to educate their children without deferring to the ravings of embittered bigots who are more concerned with dictating the lives of others.

The world needs less bigots whose bitterness and hatred for others manifest itself in so many ways.

By SCY

April 20, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this

Maybe I should go back to school so I know the difference between “no” and “know.”

Why are some atheists so bitter? If “V for Vendetta” actually read Ayn Rand he would discover that Objectivism in no way advocates using the power of the state to impose its will on others. Perhaps the freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. Imagine if someone said that Blacks or Jews or Hispanics “pepper the state like malignant…weeds.”

I’m not Catholic and would never send my child to a Catholic school but I do support the notion of freedom. Including the freedom of parents to decide how best to educate their children without deferring to the ravings of embittered bigots who are more concerned with dictating the lives of others.

The world needs less bigots whose bitterness and hatred for others manifest itself in so many ways.

By MMI

April 21, 2008 12:34 AM | Link to this

I’m an agnostic in my mid-30’s who attended Catholic schools for 8 years. I wouldn’t change a thing. I received an amazing education, met the best friends of my life, and was given an incredible foundation to begin my life when I attended college. The fact that I strayed away from the church in my late 20s can’t take away all that was given to me by the Catholic Church. I was not force fed religion or “indoctrined”. We were taught to think for ourselves completely. I had the most special and incredible teachers. I just can’t say a bad thing about it. these people saying such negative things must not have any true experience with the Catholic Church. I may not buy into it all now, but I don’t have a single negative association.

By jackie

April 21, 2008 8:03 AM | Link to this

There are not enough Catholic schools in Atlanta! I think that every parish should turn their Sunday school classrooms into Middle Schools. Public school health teachers are teaching that life doesn’t begin with conception—that’s not even correct science. The archdiocese needs to do everything they can to make Catholic School affordable for ALL.

By Margaret

April 22, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

Wake up - the catholic schools of today are nowhere near the quality of the ones you attended in the 60s and 70s. The focus and dedication - and the often unappreciated nuns - has mostly disappeared. I am very disappointed in the quality of the catholic high school I sent my older child to - as far as I could see they were simple skating along on the reputation earned in my generation. The oversight and attention is now sadly lacking. The standards were not what I expected and I will not recommend that school to any other parent.