Get Schooled

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

IMHO, an 8% increase in college tuition is outrageous. Current inflation is what? Around 3 or 4%? Why is college tuition increase double that of inflation?

I believe that today, colleges feel compelled to provide way more than a college education. They provide spa-like facilities that include hot tubs, whirl pools, steam rooms, saunas, gyms, weight rooms, and so on. They provide music rooms (to listen to music), game rooms (with arcade, etc.), and so on. This stuff does cost a lot, but is this what colleges should focus on?

On top of that, colleges tack onto this tuition extra “fees” to pay for transportation (whether you take it or not), technology (whether you have your own computer or not), and so on.

Someone has to stand up and speak against these outrageous and unnecessary expenses. Evidently, the GA Board of Regents won’t do it.

By WFC

April 16, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

I’m not at all worried about paying for college. My son, Beau, is currently a junior at Northview High School. Here’s the plan:

No problem and no rip—off “colllege loans.”

By Tony

April 16, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

It is important to understand some of the contributing factors to the tuition increase. The Board of Regents implemented a tuition guarantee plan that assures each class a certain tuition cost for their four years at an institution. This means the cost given to the next freshmen class must be projected across four years - this reduces the inflaction rate to around 2.5%.

Second, in the great state of Georgia the university system is heavily subsidized by the state budget. When the legislators propose cuts in the university budget, the fixed costs remain. Thus, students must make up the difference.

Yes. Tuition rates must increase and it is a responsible action of the board of regents to pass this cost on to the consumer rather than the taxpayer.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Tony - Your explanation doesn’t address the issues I listed in my previous post. 8% is outrageous.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Tony, especially considering the taxpayers already foot the bill for about half the basic cost of tuition, fees, books, room, and board. (to figure, subtract the cost for instate students from out of state students. At uga about 29,000 per year minus about $14,000 per year—taxpayers pick up much of the rest) Plus, colleges figure the HOPE will pick up much of the increase for many of the students, as long as it is called ” tuition”.

By Mara

April 16, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

The state’s public colleges and universities are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers. It costs money to run a school, and an increase in cost is expecte. So the issue becomes, would you rather, as a taxpayer pay 8% more in taxes, or have the students, who actually attend the schools pay for the increase? If the students don’t like it, they can always decide to pay for the private schools, which are more than double the cost of a public college. There is no right to a cheap college, people need to set aside their sense of entitlement.

By decaturparent

April 16, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

Y’all are freaking me out. So far we have been saving regularly and substantially but we only have about $55K saved and three children have to share it. The oldest is 11 - the youngest 4. I really don’t know how we will pay for this. It’s nuts.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

Mara - I completely DISAGREE. The issue here is not HOW to fund college, but rather the WISDOM of how the money is spent. College cost is rising, that is true. But, when colleges provide the luxuries that I mentioned, it is no longer just a college - it is a spa.

If colleges were to ONLY provide the education to gain a degree, I would bet that college cost could be cut in half!

By asg

April 16, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

A note about private colleges and universities: Yes, the “sticker price” of private schools are much more, but private schools tend to offer more merit and need based scholarships as well as grants. Some in GA also match the Hope scholarship amount for private schools. So, depending on the student, the amount families are expected to pay ends up not being much more than public schools. Don’t let “sticker prices” scare you.

By Tony

April 16, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

JustMe - I think your focus on the things you imply are frivilous is causing you to miss the points made by others. While these items you list may seem extravagant, the amounts spent for these extras do not always come from student charges or from taxpayer dollars. University foundations provide money for much of the extras that we see in the universities.

The true costs in universities as in public schools are in personnel. State funding provides a considerable portion of the money needed to pay salaries, but it is not sufficient. To maintain quality programs, the colleges must pay for the professors and support staff needed.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Tony - College professor salaries are certainly NOT causing tuition to rise. In GA, professor salaries are EXTREMELY low. In fact, college professors in GA are paid on a lower scale than elementary school teachers. I know this is factual in GA because I currently teach public school and I have been looking into teaching in college - the problem is that I cannot afford a pay cut!

The increase in college cost is not coming from personnel such as professors. Possibly, it is the salaries of the Deans and Presidents and so on, but NOT the professors.

Again, if colleges were strict with their budget and were to simply provide the education for the degree, I still believe that they could cut cost by 50%. Do they really need amazing landscaping with tulip bulbs blooming? Do they really need those spa-like amenities? Do they need 12 indoor basketball courts for students to play pick-up games in? Do they need those statues on every corner? Why must a college campus be like that?

Your point about foundations is mute. Those same foundations would be contributing to the operations of the college, as needed, rather than purchasing those frivolous things. As long as the Board of Regents grants these large increases in tuition, those foundations don’t have to contribute to the operations.

The 8% increase in tuition for next year is simply outrageous.

As a side note, college professors can increase their personal income through getting grants for research. And, this also helps the college because those grants also usually include money to purchase things and to pay for support staff.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

JM, for a no frills education go to a two year school. Much less cost involved.

asg, I agree with you regarding private schools. Wait till you see and evaluate the financial aid offer. All 3 of my children went to private colleges and got first rate educations, with small classes, lots of professor contact, no teaching assistants, and never any trouble getting registered for any class. Their financial aid offers made the private colleges at least on par with the in state publics in terms of out of pocket money for me.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

JM, pay depends on the field (medicine, engineering command more than elementary ed profs, for example) and the professorial level (lecturer, assist prof, associate prof, full prof). Also depends on whether you are full time or adjunct. Adjuncts are paid very poorly.

Grants are usually required to be funneled through the university and usually don’t result in more pay for the prof, but may provide grad assistants, equipment, secretarial support, etc, or a lessening of teaching duties (2 classes a semester instead of 4, for example). I don’t believe the grant money is just added to the top often, if ever, directly.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Not trying to pick a fight or be the grammar/vocabulary police, but the point is “moot” not “mute”.

By momand more

April 16, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

As much as I think tuition is crazy high, I do believe the finacial aid packages will help. I paid for all of my own college and dorm room at a private school with loans and grants. I fully expect my daughter to do the same. There is nothing better than knowing I did this myself! Parent supported kids were the big partiers! They did not know the value of the gift they were receiving.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Catlady - Come on. Why are you bringing in things without telling the whole story?

I am comparing apples to apples. A 1st year college professor to a 1st year elementary teacher comparison. Of course, as each of them gain years their salary increases. But, when comparing apples to apples, the elementary teacher makes a greater salary.

Also, I cannot swear that all college professor salaries are on the same pay scale. However, I can only tell you what I have seen with my own eyes and know from friends that are college professors.

I would find it hard to believe the hypothetical first year Dr. Smith that teaches math at Piedmont College gets paid more than hypothetical first year Dr. Jones that teaches English at UGA.

Catlady, would you please share with us your source of information regarding pay scale of professors for the various fields?

Finally, grant money is MANAGED by the university. But the proportion of distribution is NOT decided by the college. Some grants allow for larger percentages to go directly to professor pay (head researcher), while others allow for smaller percentages. Grants that I have seen, first hand, spell out the proportions of the money specifically for purchases, salaries, RAs, and so on.

Again, I ask for your source when you say that colleges do not allow for grant money to be paid to professors salaries.

Also, my use of “mute” was intentional - and tongue in cheek.

By Tater

April 16, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

JustMe

I currently teach public school and I have been looking into teaching in college - the problem is that I cannot afford a pay cut!

AVERAGE Professor Salaries from the UGA Website

UGA $100,252

Georgia Institute of Technology $141,869

Medical College of Georgia $179,591

The citizens of DeKalb County are getting screwed royally if they are paying you more than a college professor in our STATE (not private) system.

Once again you clearly have no clue regarding what the facts are.

Georgia State University $111,239

By Tater

April 16, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

BTW JustMe, those salaries were as of December 2006.

By HB

April 16, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

JM, I wouldn’t bet on the idea that foundations and donors will give just as much to general operating costs as to special projects that you consider to be frills. People often want to give money to the specific cause that interests them — from the rich parents of a freshman at my university so thrilled with the nonacademic campus life that they gave $50,000 to help support res life to the former athlete who wants to help renovate the locker room to the former history major who provides a departmental scholarship. Can universities cut costs by not relandscaping every 3 weeks? Sure, if they haven’t already in these tough times, but frankly, those practices are a drop in the bucket (if it saved a bunch, such things would have been cut already).

And it doesn’t matter if salaries start out low or high relative to other areas or to high school teachers — if personnel costs go up, they go up, and if that’s the biggest chunk of the budget (highly likely), then that’s going to affect school costs far more than keeping a few existing b-ball courts open. And it’s not just about professor salaries. It takes a lot of workers to run a school and both cost of living increases, if given, and higher benefit costs (like skyrocketing health insurance premiums) can have a huge impact on the bottom line. Figure in higher energy costs to run the campus, and it just makes sense that tuition must go up. I admit, I too thought 8% seemed outrageous, but didn’t realize that would be locked in for incoming students for 4 years (thanks, Tony!). Given that fact, the would-be annual rate of increase sounds reasonable to me, especially given the anticipated inflation of everything else we consume. The 8% increase may look like a real steal 2 years from now!

By Martina

April 16, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

I was also shocked when hearing the 8% figure. Thankfully my daughter will be graduating from GA Tech in August and has done it debt-free. Her best friend however got no support at all from her parents and has a boatload of debt from student loans and is still not finished. I can’t imagine graduating and getting an entry-level job and having that amount of debt over your head. It’s no wonder so many college graduates are having to move back in with parents because they can’t afford to be on their own.

By Tony

April 16, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

JM- by what authority do you declare points moot? The “I don’t want to hear from any other point of view” authority?

By catlady

April 16, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

JM: sorry, I did not get your joke. Too much CRCT prep. “Which word is spelled incorrectly?”

Re: professor’s salaries. The AAUP would have them, you could get them from issues of the Chronicle of Higher Ed, or any IR office at any particular college or university. The UGA university system BOR has them. Remember that a first year, non tenured prof in elementary education would not draw as much as the same creds in business or astrophysics or nuclear engineering. There are also numerous up to date national studies by folks in the Journal of Higher Ed., Review of Higher Ed, the work of the Association for Institutional Research, etc. Be sure you are comparing first year PhD’s in the same field, even if you are comparing college pay to teacher pay. There is little available to compare 1st year teacher pay t-4 ($33,000?) to 1st year professorial pay with a Bachelor’s degree (they don’t get hired for professorial positions, even at 2 year schools. SACS accreditation issues). So, you are right, it IS important to compare apples to apples. Check the work load, too. And remember within some limits, professors can negotiate their salaries. Teachers, generally, can not (unless they are a winning football coach, etc. : P )

Tater, remember those are averages, not first year profs. In heavily tenured departments, that would skew the numbers a great deal.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

Also interesting, is where the ceiling is. For teachers with PhDs and maxed out experience (the bottom right of the salary scale) it is less than $80,000. (This does not include administrative or coaching pay) For full profs, even in the less competitive areas, they can reach that in l0 years or so (as opposed to 20+ years of experience for teachers).

I agree that many students want the “best” of everything. It is a parental decision whether to indulge the student or not. Colleges want to be competitive. If their sister colleges all have an indoor rock climbing area, then they HAVE to have one, too. Several of our research colleges in Georgia are striving for the level of student that UNC or UVA pulls in, and to get them you must have lots of cool stuff.

By catlady

April 16, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

The Institute of Higher Ed at UGA could also provide some up to date research citations.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Tater… LOL. Don’t know exactly where you get your info, but everything you state does not match up at all with the following web site:

http://www.usg.edu/usgstats/infodigest/1997/salary.html

Which is also December, 1996 (the same date you said).

The numbers from this web site more clearly agrees with my points about professor pay. For example, it shows that the AVERAGE pay for an Assistant Professor at GA State is $42,658. That is an average of 271 professors - and that includes people with many years of experience!

Now, to be even an Assistant Professor, one must have a PhD (at least in the majority of cases). And, an elementary teacher with a PhD can quickly earn much more than $42,658. In fact, I believe that a PhD elementary teacher can surpass the $50,000 mark after only about 5 years of teaching. You have to compare apples to apples (PhD to PhD).

Again, this confirms my previous post.

And, this also explains my comment about me taking a pay cut to take a job teaching in college. Understand that as a public school teacher, I have years of experience. If I started as a college prof, I would again start at the bottom rung of the ladder.

Tony As I already explained, your point about foundations giving money to the frivolous things is moot because if the college had need for basic operations, I am certain that these supporting foundations would give their money to the operations rather than for tulip bulbs. It always gets under my skin when an organization claims ‘poor’ in one area (operations of a college)when they are ‘rich’ in another area (buying tulip bulbs for landscaping)- as if they cannot transfer funds or something!

Would you tell your children, “Sorry kids, we ran out of money from our food budget this month. But, hey! We have excess money to go to the movies for entertainment.” So you would let your kids starve while taking them to the movies?????

By jim d

April 17, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this

Scuse me for interrupting but doesn’t HOPE cover tuition?

We must consider college an investment.

Did you know that, according to a 2007 College Board Study, Education Pays, people with a bachelor’s degree earn over 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma? Over a lifetime, the gap in earning potential between a high school diploma and a B.A. is more than $800,000. In other words, whatever sacrifices you make for your college education in the short term are more than repaid in the long term.

Let me also point out that prices of public four-year colleges and universities rose more rapidly between 1997-98 and 2007-08 than in the preceding decade, but prices of private four-year and public two-year institutions did not.

That being said, I’ve no problem with the tuiton increases.

By jim d

April 17, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this

Tater,

Appears someone just failed reading 101 again and is still living in the 90’s. :-)

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 7:38 AM | Link to this

Tater,

It appears as though ‘the jerk of the blog’ doesn’t realize that you said GA State professors average salary was $111,239 in 1990, while the source I cited was no where near that for 1990. Seems that ‘the jerk of the blog’ needs to retake reading 101 himself.

By jim d

April 17, 2008 7:43 AM | Link to this

Pretty sweet scam by the government.

Those that earn their degree earn an additional $800,000 over a lifetime, Let’s just say they fall into the 15% tax bracket. They will pay and additional $120,000 in taxes over their lifetime.

Little wonder the Government has perpetrated the myth that one needs a college education to succeed.

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 7:46 AM | Link to this

jd - And don’t start your regular whinning and crying like a little girl about me ‘calling names’ when you clearly started it! Don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house!!

By jim d

April 17, 2008 8:12 AM | Link to this

Hmm,

By Tater

April 16, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

BTW JustMe, those salaries were as of December 2006.

By JustMe

April 16, 2008 10:18 PM

“Tater… LOL. Don’t know exactly where you get your info,”

“Which is also December, 1996 (the same date you said).”

By jim d

April 17, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

JM,

LOL-LOL-LOL-ROTFLOL!!

Thanks for the laugh!!

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

I am adult enough to admit when I make an honest mistake. I misread the year on the date of Tater’s posting.

By HB

April 17, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

But JM, you’re analogy doesn’t match up. A better one would be, we’re out of money and can’t afford food, but someone offered us these nontransferable, not-for-resale movie passes, so let’s go out and enjoy them since turning them down won’t put food in our bellies. Of course, we could run into a public perception issue, because if we need to ask a friend for help next week and they’ve seen us at the show, they may say, “Why are you asking me? You’d have plenty if you didn’t waste all your money on frivalous things like movies…”

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

HB - Okay, I can go with your analogy. And, IMHO, that someone that offered the nontransferable, not-for-resale movie passes would then see that the children are starving and would substitute food for those movie passes. Or, would allow those movie passes to be sold in order to buy food.

Again, those college “foundations” that are supposedly donating just for those frivolous things (ie: tulip bulbs) would surely step in and assist with the operating expenses, if needed. However, as long as the Board of Regents grants outrageous 8% increases in tuition per year, that assistance is not needed (and college students get hosed).

Do you really think that those donating the money (the “foundations”) would want the campus to look pretty while the student body is choked away to non-existance?

By HB

April 17, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

JM, often foundations or individuals are giving $ based on a particular goal or mission, not on a specific receiving institution’s needs. Say there’s a foundation that wants to fund athletics/fitness, and they offer to build a college gym. If one college says, “thanks, but we have other priorities right now,” or we can’t afford to keep it running once it’s built,” odds are that foundation will not then step in and say, “well ok then, let us help you with operating costs instead.” They more likely will offer the gym to a college down the road. Likewise, a movie theater employee may hand out non-transferable passes, yet turn someone down who says, “Please may I have some soup instead?” Also, grants often have a set mission, and institutions send in proposals that meet certain criteria. The recipient of that award must use the money as proposed and cannot transfer it to another department or repurpose the funds.

As for the tulips (which I doubt are specifically foundation-funded), I really don’t think those are impacting the bottom line nearly as much as you seem to think they are. In any case, they’re not just flowers — they are a strong marketing tool. I’ll bet a tour of a beautiful campus will do as much, if not more, to encourage a student to apply as any mailed brochure (plus the brochure is going to look better if it has pretty pictures of the campus).

And of course, no one would want to see a pretty campus while the student body is “choked away to non-existence,” but do you really think that’s happening? Have you ever seen an example of that yourself? The colleges I’ve seen that are struggling against all hope to keep standards and enrollment up have had pretty dingy, run-down looking campuses too.

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

No, HOPE doesn’t cover tuition in GA. And also, not every college student qualifies for HOPE money.

By catlady

April 17, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

JM, are you saying HOPE now has a certain level amount,instead of covering “tuition,some fees, and a book allowance?” for public colleges? (I know it is a flat amount for private college students).

By jim d

April 17, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

OK, Jm, but Hope does offset some of the cost for many students.

Now, let’s take a look at the future as [student enrollment is predicted to decline.](http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/2008/03/13/on-campus-soon-more-empty-seats.html)

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

catlady - That’s not what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that not all GA residences qualify for HOPE. Also, out-of-state students cannot get HOPE regardless. Finally, even a citizen of GA with great grades can only get HOPE for a single degree, so most graduate students are out of luck, as well. So, the 8% increase in tuition directly impacts many college students.

Could possibly the only reason the Board of Regents increased tuition is BECAUSE they believed that the increase would be absorbed by HOPE? If so, that would be even more of a disgrace, IMHO!

By Lee

April 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

With the HOPE scholarship, obtaining a college education in one of Ga’s public colleges is one of the best bargains around.

With HOPE, you can expect to pay around $6000 per year out of pocket, and most of that is room/board/meal ticket type expenses. Go to a college near home and your expenses are probably reduced to less than $1000 per year.

Since I am now paying $15k in private school tuition, I am looking forward to a little extra jingle in my pocket when the youngest goes off to college.

By JustMe

April 17, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Lee - You are absolutely right. But, here is a hypothetical situation to highlight my concern with this 8% tuition increase: What might happen if the Lottery money suddenly dried up? What if people stopped playing the Lottery (due to the economy or whatever) and there was no Hope in 2 years, for example?

Do you really think that the Board of Regents would then decrease tuition in GA? Heck no!

You would then look forward to sky high tuition costs coming out of your pocket for your youngest child.

I am really baffled by the people that seem okay with this increase - an increase because “they can” and because the current HOPE hides this increase from the majority. These seem to be the same people that want smaller government, less taxes, etc. Their stance seems mighty hypocritical to me!

Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that the Lottery money was down and the politicans were looking for ways to decrease HOPE!

By jim d

April 17, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

Wrong answer sweetheart.

Mine elected to go out of state and will incur a rather hefty yearly debt that would purchase a new car every year for the 4 years he’s there.

Now, as for hope drying up? Ain’t gonna happen. Historically when there is a down turn in the economy lottery funds increase. Go check it out.

The 8% increase places Georgia college tuition in accordance with our neighboring states. Trust me on this one, We’ve been looking.

Georgia schools tuition as of today is ranked 48th. Education here is still a bargin even with the 8%increase.

By catlady

April 17, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

JM, check some of those same resources cited above for tuition for other states. While GA is NOT AT ALL the least, it is no where near the top for in-state attendees. Then, look at aid available to state students to get a truer picture of actual student expenditures on tuition among the states—things like SSIG, which I believe has ratcheted greatly downward since HOPE came along, here in Georgia. Some states are much more generous with need based aid than GA, but may not have the level of “merit” aid Georgia does. Many states have sharply higher tuition than Georgia, but are much more generous with need based aid for poor students (not just “scholars”). In other words, many states target aid to financially needy students much more than Georgia does.

Some states, like North Carolina, until fairly recent times had no or very tiny tuition for in state students!

By catlady

April 17, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Also for good rsch in tuition, see work of Tom Mortensen, Pell Institute for Study of Opportunity in Higher Ed, Morton Shapiro, Michael McPherson. All well thought of in the policy wonk/research community.

By EducatorX3

April 17, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

In regards to professors salaries…with a PhD, teaching a full course load + supervising student teachers, and 17 years of teaching/administrative experience in the K-12 world, my contract as an assistant professor at a state university is $49,000.(far less than a colleague in the school of business even there is a waiting list to get into the school of education!) My salary as an elementary school teacher (with a supplement for NBPTS) in a local system would be $80,700. AND…in the university system contracts are for 10 months. I can teach summer school and make some extra money, but certainly no where near enough to make up the difference in salary!

JustMe - you can’t compare the salaries of professors at Piedmont and UGA. Piedmont is a private school. However, you will also see a difference in salaries from university to university within the state system. For example, a 1st year asst. professor at Ga. State and one at Armstrong State wouldn’t necessarily make the same salary.

As for the tuition increase…hate to pay it, but certainly understand that it is needed to operate the schools and provide an education to the students.

Just my two cents.