Get Schooled

By Thomas

April 1, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this

This discussion seems to encompass multiple issues, thus making a real conversation almost impossible. We (the blog master) should separate these issues so that we may discuss them intelligently….

A) Does our society have a need to educate its citizens? Does this benefit our society on the whole? If the answer is ‘yes’, then how does out society go about ensuring “proper” education of its citizens? What is “proper” education?

B) What should be done about people that have children that do not parent? Is it our society’s responsibility to take children away from people that don’t properly parent? Who defines “proper parenting?” When does lack of parenting hurt the child, and is it the childs fault (should the child suffer)? If it is decided that it is society’s responsibility to ensure good parenting, is the public school the proper agency to replace the parents?

C) What is the basic role of schools? Is it to parent? Is it to teach subject matter content? Is it to entertain and baby sit? Is it all of these and more? What happens when you put so many responsibilities on a single agency that it is doomed to fail?

D) Should there no longer be a tax payer funded public school and lay that burden entirely on the shoulders of those with children? Should private institutions take up the responsibility of education (such as Churches, Bill Gates, etc.) and there be no more public school? What happens if there is no more public school and families cannot afford to educate their children - are they then defined as “bad parents” (see issue B)?

Until issues A), B), C), and D) can be answered, it is almost impossible to continue with this type of blog topic! Those that post on this blog cannot even agree on A), B), C), and D) - so the little topics currently posted every other day or so are meaningless!

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

Hmmmm. What are the differences between rural and urban communities? Poverty, gangs, drug usage, drug dealers, crime, etc.

What are the differences between rural and urban schools? School size, class size, etc.

What are the difference between rural and urban parents? Single parent households, church going people, etc.

Now come on - is anyone really shocked by the results of graduation rates? Schools are a reflection of the people and the communities that they are in. Schools cannot cure all of society’s problems.

By jim d

April 1, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Here we go again!

Discipline freaks, status quo nerds, The abolish public education faction, a few choice advocates and the anti-voucher contingent. Then there’s the charter movement and a variety off others, but the truth be known it just can’t be fixed.

By Tony

April 1, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

The crisis in city schools can not only be blamed on the schools. These are community problems that affect schooling. You can list more than a dozen correlational factors that include poverty, drugs, gangs, decline of the family, single-parent homes, absent fathers, poor healthcare for children, ….

Looking at this list of contributing factors it is no wonder that the schools are affected. What astounds me is that the only finger that gets pointed is toward the schools. In this case the graduation rate is singled out. When the citizens of these cities decide for themselves that learning is important, then the schools will get better.

Schools can not fix all the social ills that contribute to the crisis cited in this report. What we can do is teach children who come to school with their basic needs met. This means they must have support at home to provide safety, nurture, food, and healthcare.

Another cry that usually goes up in reports like these is the one that says inner city schools are more likely to have lesser qualified teachers. I think this is a no brainer. The teachers I know enjoy working in environments that are conducive to learning. They like working with children who come to school ready to learn. They enjoy having parents who support the learning process at home. Good teachers will seek good schools. Once the social ills outside of the schools improve, then the schools will improve.

By Clarence

April 1, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

Hey JustMe - if you look at graduation rates in our state, the rural schools do just about as poorly as urban. The good graduation rates are almost exclusively in the suburbs.

By eleteach

April 1, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Fairly new to the blog… was it discussed why Oprah Winfrey decided to build her school in Africa instead of the US?

They can add all the programs they want…and while there may be some improvements with those… until people will learn to appreciate and value their education… for the most part, there will never be huge gains.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

Great points as usual, Thomas. Those are some of the basic questions about all of education.

To answer the question asked, first, whatever your answers to the questions Thomas poses, is the student ready to do the work at the high school? (Or, is the high school merely elementary school with much bigger kids?) One of the reasons our high schools struggle is that they have kids dumped on them that have no chance of academic success. Either because they cannot read (but got passed along anyway), or because their energies are not focused toward school, for reasons like disfunctional homes or the “need” to work, or because they don’t think the school provides what they will use, like practical skills. At our school, it is mostly numbers one and two, and number two frequently contributes to number one (hence Thomas’ comments). Kids who are disengaged will claim it is number three (they are “bored”).

I know some on this blog (jim d?) think teachers on the blog are too critical of parents. I wish they could be a teacher for a few weeks and see what we see. Then they might understand how relatively small a group of parents there are that are appropriately involved and invested in their children’s lives. (I would say, maybe a third at best, unless you live in a place with higher than normal parental education).

And yes, Jeff, personal responsibility comes in here too. That is taught from toddlerhood in functionally-parental-led families. It CAN be developed later, and certainly should be firmly in place for high school students, but the schools are not allowed to have the kinds of policies that strongly encourage the development of personal responsibility. So year after year the students see mama and daddy “gettin’ by” and letting someone else pick up the slack, and they think that is the way it is supposed to work.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this

JM, please don’t put rural schools/home environments on a pedestal! Our problems are quite the same as urbal schools, with the possible exception of gangs! And we have the dropout rates to prove it! Our local high school probably graduates 60% (maybe). One other contributing factor: factories (carpet mills) and businesses (chicken processing plants) that are thrilled to have our dropouts to work their $9 an hour jobs! And the prospect of “going away” to get a job after graduation.

By DB

April 1, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this

Education and attitudes toward education start at home. Until you can give these kids a chance at a stable, disciplined home life that doesn’t include premarital sex at 13 and babies at 14, there’s not much a school can do. Schools are there to educate, not solve all of society’s problems. As long as schools are expected to be mom, dad AND teacher, assume that schools won’t be able to fulfill any of those roles with any degree of competence.

By WFC

April 1, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Bravo, THOMAS, great clarification.

I’ve noticed over the years (since ‘75) that responsibilities are constantly being added to the public schools but none are ever oficially removed. I guess that teachers are simply supposed to work longer and harder. Good luck!

Academic knowledge and teaching ability seem less important now than when I started in 1975.

My generation doesn’t seem to have good parenting skills.

There seem to be very few scholars among school “leaders.” Too many managerial “careerists.”

Schools are too big!

By V for Vendetta

April 1, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Thomas, very interesting points. Nicely said!

Jim D, I fear you are totally correct.

Let’s be honest here. Twenty-five years ago Dekalb county was a nice place to live with a fairly high-achieving school system. Now crime runs rampant and the (majority) of the schools are cesspools. Ten years ago Gwinnett county schools were some of the best in the nation and the community was as strong as any in metro Atlanta. Now the schools are like a person clinging to a breaking branch hanging over a rushing river.

Ask yourself why. Ask yourself what the rushing river symbolizes. You’ll have your answers.

No, high schools very well may be beyond saving. That is, until the government relinquishes its stranglehold on the entirety of education.

By Jeff

April 1, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

As Cat forsaw, I’m coming down on the side of personal responsibility.

Enable the schools to force this. Zeroes, no lunch, etc as fits with whatever the teen in question did not do or have.

By the time a kid is in HS, if we do not force personal responsibility we are about to have yet another person on welfare, probably multiple people as these types of kids tend to have a reproduction rate commonly found in INSECTS. (They even outpace the proverbial rabbit!)

By jim d

April 1, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

According to Ron White Schools are beyond repair since “You just can’t fix stupid” and public education today is anything but smart!

By V for Vendetta

April 1, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you’re ABSOLUTELY right, but the government would never allow that to happen.

Why?

Because that would mean that some kids just can’t achieve. That some types of people just aren’t cut out for higher education.

OH THE HORROR!

By catlady

April 1, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

WFC—you have hit upon two of the things I am most concerned about: Teachers (and schools) have more and more added to the top, without anything coming off the bottom. And they are all “top priority”.

Second, the vapid blindness of many of our administrators to go along with the cure du jour (or several—then we will really see improvement). Things that are not supported by any reputable research, but only by the research promulgated by the particular cure. At our school, thanks to Reading First, we spend 4 years teaching kids that reading is calling words fast. The heck with comprehension until they can call words sufficiently fast. So as third graders they think they are reading when all they are doing is saying words (fast). Now, in math, we “expose” kids to concepts, instead of TEACHING TO MASTERY. We have even hired a math coach to help us implement this. Then we howl and blame the teachers when the kids fail the CRCT. And to show we know it isn’t the kids’ fault, we do not retain any of them, even in the “gateway” grades!

I swear, if my principal was told to have us all eat dog-do each week to improve scores (or for any other reason), we would be expected to do it! And if the central office could get a $300,000 grant for it, we would implement dog-do eating in every school, and have an administrator hired to oversee the dog-go eating! I am truly, but sadly, not kidding.

By The Bee

April 1, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Schools ultimately will be as “good” as the kids who attend them — and the families those kids come from. No number of professional educators can teach children whose families place little or no value on education to begin with. The resulting numbers are stark — if you live in a demographic area where most families are interested in their kids’ educations, the schools will be labeled “good” — if you don’t, they won’t.

The primary problem is, and always will be, that PARENTS (whether present or not, whether engaged or not) are failing their kids … the schools aren’t. And until and unless we have the will to remove kids from homes with utterly imcompetent and disengaged parents, NO amount of money or “social engineering” will ever fix this problem.

By Jeff

April 1, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

V:

Over the years, I’ve learned the true value of K.I.S.S..

What is is about ‘the well laid plans of mice and men’?

9 times out of 10, a simpler solution is preferrable to the more elaborate. More elaborate typically means bigger ways to fail, and even more esoteric ways to fail.

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

High School drop-out rates are high in rural counties as well. In my rural county, less than 60% of students graduate. One big problem I see is lack of jobs. Students see their parents who graduated from high school working right beside those who dropped out. The HS diploma made no difference. Local jobs include farm work, employment in fast food restaurants, convenience store work, or possibly work in the ONE grocery store. Sure there are better jobs 30 miles away, but that seems like another world to many of our kids. I’ve had students who have never been to the beach, eaten in a sit-down restaurant or even been to a shopping mall.

It can also be extremely difficult for rural school systems to hire the best teachers, especially in math and science. Obviously, this hurts the students as well.

In the past, I’ve pointed out possible advantages of “school choice,” but in many rural counties, there are no other choices; not even private schools.

By Joy in Teaching

April 1, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

I can name 3 things off the top of my head that would start turning public schools in the right direction.

1) Schools need to start back “leveling” kids instead of putting them all in the same class and expecting the teacher to juggle the three ring circus. It is the easiest, cheapest way to get results from students. Not all students learn the same way or at the same rate. To heck with the touchy feely stuff that society expects us to do these days.

2) Realize that not all students have the talent or inclination to go to college. Most students need to learn the skills in order to learn a trade. The rest of the civilized world realizes and understands this.

3) Kick the criminals out of school. Yes, some may be children. But we owe it to the students who wish to learn and the teachers who wish to teach to be allowed to do so in safety. The bums who just wish to destroy and cause mayhem need to go elsewhere. Maybe, they just need to work in the fields in the okra patch to understand that school wasn’t that bad in the first place.

2)

By Lee

April 1, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

They need to get away from the traditional courses which are boring, and get to some more relevant ones, sunch as “Arithmetic for hte Poor” that explains monthly payments, compound interest, and credit card debt to people who are caught up in those webs. Or “Safe Sex with Many People” and “The Benefits and Problems of Being Pregnant before 18” and “How to Buy a Car” or “How to Rent an Apartment” or “How to Apply for a Job” or “How to figure out an Income Tax Form” or “How to Work with the State Welfare system”. People want courses that affect their lives. Today. Senior English is nice, but it doesn’t cut it as a primary class for the classless. In addition to the traditional courses, we need to make the courses more relevant to the people today. Then they really would would stay in school.

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Joy, I like your reference to the okra patch. The problem is that suspending disruptive kids REWARDS them. They’d rather roam the neighborhood or play video games than attend school. If kids actually had to work if they didn’t attend school, that may make a difference. Some kids don’t see a connection between education and work. They don’t see adults working, but they have food, a roof over their heads, electricity, etc.

By whatever

April 1, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Outsource education to China.

By Erin

April 1, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

It’s not just about education … it’s also a cultural problem. When kids are unrealistically believing they’ll hit the big-time as a rap star or an NBA or NFL player, making the mega-bucks or whatever, then we’ve definitely got bigger problems than a deplorable graduation rate.

In many cases, too, kids see gangs or drug-dealing as a much more appealing option than staying in school and getting an education … mainly because it seems easy (education is hard! education is boring!) and because it’s all they’ve really ever been exposed to.

By FultonTeacher

April 1, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Joy in Teaching thank you! Very well stated.

I am throwing in the towel after 14 years of teaching public school. I’ve tried to engage students in lessons that are enjoyable and meaningful. But what do you do when students won’t even pick up a pencil to write down their name on a piece of paper? These students are so disrespectful! They could care less about getting an education. All they can think about is their clothes and shoes. Most of which is from the local flea market so it’s a knock off. Poor administrators and low parental involvement make this career quite frustrating.

As a parent I am frustrated that my gifted child is a problem in his regular ed class because he finishes his work first and then is a behavior problem. The solution every year is to make him a class tutor. Is this fair to him? Sure he can help other students, but he needs to be challeneged more. TAG once a week is not enough. Nobody wants to fight for the rights of those that are above level.

Schools only care about test scores. That’s it. What’s the solution? That’s a tough one to answer. But I can give you a list of problems a mile long…

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Cannot say that I disagree with you. Those things do need to be taught. But, I just do not think that it should be in high school. Maybe you can create courses taught through other venues.

Let’s keep high school with its original intention. It cannot be everything for everyone.

By Fulton

April 1, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

First of all, our educational system needs to be revamped from head to toe. The current standards were created for an industrial society, which we are no more. Next, place a higher value on education and gear those values directly towards the current workplace (no longer factories). Lastly, since you get what you pay for, how about showing more VALUE for our teachers by giving them more incentives (ie..CASH!!) to become (and remain) quality teachers. With all the modern advances and technologies that we have as a society, why are we producing less intelligent individuals?

By SD

April 1, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like today to stand in front of some of the classes of students that are out there and attempt to reach out to them, connect with them, get their respect and attention and try to teach them something, anything. No, not from where I sit, I cannot imagine this task. Daily I watch students near my Toco Hills home depart school and converge upon the fast food places before catching their buses, MARTA, not school buses, and dialy I am surprised at what I see first hand. Hoards of students in clothing 10 sizes too big, hooded sweatshirts, mobile phones but NO BOOKS… yell profanity, always the F bomb, towards one another. These students surely cannot be the products of involved parents, or a parent. Some are downright scary to me, some of the males look over twenty years old, yet this is a high school. If this is an indication of what city schools are like, I am so fortunante to have attended high school where and when I did. Sorry, but these are not our future leaders of tomorrow. Future occupiers of jail cells perhaps, but not leaders.

By HB

April 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

So how would you define high school’s original intention? In the past, vocational tracks have included business math and adult roles courses that would cover much of what Lee mentioned. Once upon a time, high school was not strictly designed to prepare students for college.

As for rural vs urban schools, they do have a lot in common — low graduation rates, high teen pregnancy rates, larger percentage of children from improverished families with parents who often have not completed high school, let alone attended college. And many rural schools I’ve known of weren’t that small and didn’t have smaller class sizes. They often were short on teachers, and the high schools could be pretty big with only one serving an entire county. That’s why teacher-incentive programs are often designed to get teachers into rural and inner-city schools — both areas are underserved and facing pretty big hurdles.

By MrLiberty

April 1, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

There should absolutely not be any taxpayer funded, government operated educational institutions. Parents, supplemented voluntarily by business and the community should take care of their own. The government should have absolutely no role whatsoever.

Only by restoring the power of the purse as they say to parents and others will we ever see improvement in the schools.

If you are a collectivist (read communist) then you believe that it takes a village to raise a child. If you are an individualist (read capitalist), then it takes a willin and caring family and support structure.

By Tony

April 1, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Fulton says: The current standards were created for an industrial society, which we are no more.

Absolutely on target! The required coursework for schools is based on a somewhat modified classical education and was institutionalized in American schools during the late 1800’s. While many of the disciplines that are included in the current coursework are totally necessary for success in the future, there remain many design flaws in the delivery of the content.

At the most basic levels, teaching reading, writing and mathematics will remain the core for elementary schools. It is necessary for the kids to interact with knowledgeable, well qualified teachers in order to learn these skills. However, many schools offer these “subjects” in isolation from one another. Our current system of age-based grouping puts up huge roadblocks for schools. This organizational structure is imposed on us from the outside - rules and regulations. In a smartly designed school, students would be able to move forward when they have learned the required content and skills. To do this efficiently we would need to do away with the various grade levels.

Once students reach the knowledge levels we associate with middle and high schools, there should be more flexibility in curriculum opportunities for students. Again, there should be some agreed core content. After that, students should be able to have access to more interest based courses. They should be allowed to move forward when they attain a certain mastery level. Currently, we impose seat time requirements in favor of mastery. This seat time requirement is linked to job security for archaic and unneccesary subjects.

So, why don’t we move in this direction for our schools and make them more relevant for all?

By Corey

April 1, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

S.D., the kids you are talking about are from Open Campus. Open Campus is a school for students who are at the end of the line. There next stop is juvenile detention.

By What

April 1, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

What ever happened to vocational training programs? Like auto shop, refrigeration repair, child care, business training (secretarial), etc. for high schoolers? When I was in high school, three times a week a bus would pick a lot of us up, cart us off to the local community college and we’d work for an hour learning a TRADE. It made deciding on what to do with ourselves after high school a lot easier.

Then again, this was the late 80’s early 90’s. But, you figure… if they can offer vocational training during the day on Fox 5 through those crappy schools where you pay through the nose for a piece of paper, (you’ve seen the commercials “Earn your degree in VCR Repair, Accounting, Mechanics, or even earn your High School Diploma!”), the least they can do is offer those classes to high schoolers.

Just a thought. I’ll just continue to lurk now.

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Tony, many times I’ve heard discussions and suggestions to remove grade levels dictated by age. In fact, 12 or 13 years ago, a primary school in a neighboring county began enrolling children in pre-K, and when the students mastered the required skills, they went on to 3rd grade at a different school. Rather than report cards consisting of letter grades, parents received reports of specific skills mastered, and skills needing work. The whole program seemed to work beautifully for awhile. The first problems began when the next school began receiving 6, and 7-year-old 3rd graders. There weren’t many, so it wasn’t a big problem. The BIG problem began when the next school began receiving 10 and 11-year old 3rd graders, and a few who finally got sent up without the needed skills, but because they were so old and big.

The middle school my son attends has a multi-age team (MAT Team)which consists of 6th, 7th and 8th graders working at all different levels. My son isn’t on the team, but I’ve heard some good things about it. I haven’t seen any student go to high school early or late from the MAT team. I think the unsuccessful students get kicked off.

By Stacey

April 1, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

I’m sure someone has already mentioned this, but I think we should go back to having different types of diplomas. When I was in school (20 yrs ago) we had a general diploma for those who knew they were going to work in factories, as cashiers, etc. The students in the vocational program spent half the day training in their designated field and most had jobs before they graduated. Then we had the college prep diploma for those who needed/desired a degree for their chosen careers.

Lee…I think your post may have been meant as sarcasm, but we had an elective course called Life Skills that taught the types of things you mentioned. I chose not to take the course but there were some topics covered in the class that I had to learn the hard way.

By arh

April 1, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

There are so many problems in the education system that rural vs. urban, parental involvement vs. teacher, teacher vs. administration, etc. all seem like an oversimplification. I will tell you as a parent of two in private school that I believe one of the most positive aspects to private education for us has been size. Obviously, the level of parental involvement in a private school is expected to be higher since parents are financially invested. But, in my experience, the fact that there are 2 teachers in a class of 20 and only 3 classes per grade has made all the difference for us. My husband and I graduated from a (if not the) top performing school system in Georgia but both had a graduating class of over 600. That is just too large. My girls have 60 kids in their grade and their teachers (and all the others) get an opportunity to know them and us. Their teachers call us and we call them (at HOME)! We know the parents and know which homes we feel comfortable with or not. The administration is readily available and not some far removed multi layered bureaucracy. The classes can be far more inventive and engaging because of the teacher/child ratio-much like those target classes that we only got to attend once a week in the gifted program. I know that not everyone can afford private school but I also know that far more can than do. We choose to spend our priority, which is education and not putting on a display for others. Interestingly, the amount of our tuition is not that much more than our public system spends per pupil. Until public education scales down and more of the money per pupil spent actually reaches something that touches the pupil then I think there is no chance.

By AlreadySheared

April 1, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

This study obscures more than it reveals.

I understand that correlation between two random variables is not proof of a cause and effect relationship. Nonetheless, I suspect it would be very revealing to report the dropout rate within each school system by the following 4 categories of students:

Those from homes with

1) a married mother and father,

2) a single widowed parent,

3) a single divorced parent,

and

4) a never-married parent (mothers)

I think it’s likely that certain relationships would then be crystal clear.

By SAM

April 1, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

JEFF: I think you are so right about the OCCAM”S RAZOR thing[the simplest explanation /solution is usually the correct and best one. Most of the answers posted here esp. those of V and catlady are reasonable and I agree. However, BACK IN THE DAY,when things were simpler, there were TWO TRACKs available in most high schools: a college prep path and the vocational path. Though I was in the college prep classes taking algebra and trig, chemistry and physics, many of my friends were just where they wanted to be…business math, general science, etc. IMHO, the grievous transgression of the decision making educrats is he myopic view that every student is the same….!!! I just have the hardest time with that! To require that every student take and pass college prep level classes is ensuring an abominable graduation rate.

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

I can explain the why to some of your questions - not that I like the answers or agree with them….

The reason more curriculums are not offered can be found in the roots of Equal Opportunity for the handicapped. When I was growing up, the ‘retarded’ as we called them then were in a separate class. We also had ‘high’, ‘general level’, and ‘low’ classes. Evidently, some parents of the handicapped got mad and were able to get the laws changed such that all students were to be co-mingled in a classroom. The administrators liked this idea because it made creating the schedule easier for them. Those parents claimed that it would be great for everyone because even the ‘smart’ kids could learn something from the ‘low’ kids or the handicapped ones (like compassion). Teachers were thrown in front of a classroom full of students at all different levels and thus was born the term “differentiated instruction.”

This co-mingling of students into a single classroom also saved money for school systems. They didn’t have to buy different levels of books. So, the vocational education and other things such as that slowly were killed off. I recall Wood Shop, Metal Shop, Auto Shop, and so many interesting classes when I was in school. Well, no more! Those machines cost big bucks and the insurance liability is very high. Finally, adminstrators could pack large numbers of kids in a single classroom because it saves even more money (hire fewer teachers) and the teacher would handle the “differentiated instruction” for the masses.

It is an ego rush for an administrator to claim that they are preparing all students for college. It also saves them a lot of money and a lot of headaches. Do I agree with it - HECK NO!!!

Teachers see what’s going on. But, we are but worker bees and are doing the best that we can. The administration takes advantage of this. The politicans make the laws that push this agenda. In the end, it will have to be the parents that stand up and say “Enough is enough.”

By V for Vendetta

April 1, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

A lot of people have been wondering whta happened to vocational programs or diplomas for technical level classes. Why don’t you travel on over to the state capital and ask them. Last I heard, ALL students were going to be college prep in the next few years. Some metro counties are already moving in that direction.

It’s because ALL kids can learn at the same level. They’re all equal, you know. They all have the same IQs and what not.

Huh? They don’t?

Well I’ll be buggered.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Lee, I like your proposed courses. However, I don’t think the one about gaming the welfare system is needed!

Folks, it is NOT about race. My school is 83% white, 16% Latino, and about 1% multiracial (mostly white/Latino, but about 5 black/white kids). The vast marjority (numerically) of our kids who are behind or problem-behaved are white. In terms of percentages, about half our Latino kids are behind, and about 60-70% of the white kids are below grade level.

I watch our students when they are out with their parents (at Walmart, usually) and much of their behavior is explained by the way their parents supervise (or don’t) the excursion. If a parent does not feel enough investment in their child to be sure they are being supervised in a busy store or parking lot, you can pretty well guess how much supervision they get at home. I listen to the parents talk to their children: “get over here. If I have to tell you again….(for the fifth time)” “No, shut up. I ain’t gonna buy you nothing.” etc. and how the children address their parents. Look at the food in the cart. See what the priorities are.

Many times you have to make it worth the person’s while to do the right thing, especially if the person has been raised with a poor (or no) example of correct behavior. Too many of our governmental policies, at the school, state, and federal level, give incentives to poor behavior on the part of adults, or they fail to give negative consequences. As one adult told me, “You have to be a fool to work. We get by” on governmental aid, and can spend our days as we like. Until we disincentivize sorryness, we are just going to get more sorryness. And that sorryness is multigenerational. I believe that people can learn to do better, but not if their lives are “okay” by not making the effort to do better. ( do I sound like Jeff here?) To save the children (and our society) we must reinforce the behavior we want to see. Sounds draconian, but unless we have unlimited funds to try to “talk” people into doing better, we are only going to see more of the same, multiplied.

Poor (financially) parents can be good parents. I have taught a lot of kids of poor (but respectable and hardworking) folks. These kids had a chance, and many did well. Middle class parents can be poor parents, through drug use and lack of time given to their kids, or through overindulgence and helicoptering. Good parenting has some things in common: the belief that the rearing of the child is of top importance, the expectation that the child will not “shame” the parents, the willingness to forego some parental needs and desires in favor of the child, and the good sense to know when to let the chips fall where they may (appropriate consequences).

Schools can help children by reinforcing values of honesty, hard work, integrity, and personal responsibility. Right now we are not doing that. Will we be allowed to? I doubt it.

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

catlady - It’s just hard for me to really believe that anyone ‘likes’ being on government assistance of any type. The assitance is well below poverty level, so the quality of life cannot be acceptable.

Now, a percentage of those folks may accept their lot in life - have given up trying, have lost hope. That may be true. But, it is hard for me to believe that anyone really ‘likes’ it if they are completely honest with themselves and with you. Certainly they would prefer having a good career, have money, have respect, and livng well - given a choice!

Then again, maybe I am completely wrong.

By Doh

April 1, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

One word: home school!

By Teacher, Too

April 1, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

Joy in Teaching, I echo your sentiments.

Tony, I agree that our middle/high school curriculum is considered “liberal arts”. But, I think it is important for college-bound students to have this classical foundation. They should be exposed to the humanities and the natural sciences. It builds a well-rounded foundation of knowledge that college courses will build upon.

Having said that, students who are not college-bound or are not ready for college at the moment, need consumer education/ technical classes. They need classes that will prepare them for getting a job— how to write a resume, how to balance a checkbook, understanding credit and using it wisely, how to create a budget, figuring net income based on a gross income. While all students need this information, most likely the ones going to college need it the most.

My boyfriend’s daughter graduated last year. She has no clue how to live. She doesn’t have any job skills, and she’s not interested in furthering her education. But, she does expect to live the life she’s accustomed to!

I don’t understand. No one wants to listen to the teachers. Everyone knows how to solve the educational problems without being in the schools that need the most attention. The “cures de jour” people need to bring their cures to some of our schools and try working the cure themselves!

One final note- I wonder when the last time any of our policy-makers actually stepped foot into a rural school or an urban school and tried to teach as a substitute teacher for a month or two (not just an obligatory five minute walk-through of one or two preselected classes). A couple of times of being cursed out by students and parents, and I bet they run, not walk, to their cars.

By NICK

April 1, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Let’s face it. As long as there are blacks and illegals attending public schools, the schools WILL NEVER improve.

How are you going to teach animals that do not want to be there or can not understand English?

Public schools in “urban” areas should be converted into prisions, because that is where most of the “thugs” will wind up eventually.

Why do people even care? The teachers certainly don’t and how can you blame them? Urban public schools are a “breeding ground” for gangs, drop outs and losers.

I love it when everyone blames everyone else on why school systems, like Atlanta’s, FAIL.

Parents don’t care, students don’t care, but when the issue of money comes up, every “bottom feeder” around has their hand and race card ready, “to get theirs”……..

Don’t address the issues, BLAME THE MAN!

By Stacey

April 1, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

JustMe @ 2:47…I believe you are wrong this time. There are a lot of multigenerational welfare recipient who don’t aspire to be anything more. Some of them truly don’t know anything else while others are not willing to work to improve themselves or their situations.

I have family members in another state who have NEVER worked nor do they aspire to. Why should they…they live in 4 bedroom, 2 bath brick homes that they pay less than $100/mth rent for through Sec 8. Medical & dental care covered by Medicaid, food through food stamps, plus they get a welfare check to cover rent & subsidised utilities. One lady actually berated her daughter for berated her daughter (who was a high school dropout with two kids) for getting a job as grocery store cashier because she would lose her benefits.

By MAC

April 1, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

NICK,Please don’t turn this into a race issue. Failing high schools and the drop out rate for our country is everyone’s problem. Blacks only make up 13% of America’s population, so you cannot solely blame them and/or Latinos for the astronomical dropout figures. The problem lies within the communities—a reflection shown in the schools.

By jim d

April 1, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

“It’s just hard for me to really believe that anyone ‘likes’ being on government assistance of any type”

So what would you call public education, dear? Is that not a form of Government assistance?

BTW, that was meant as a rhetorical question.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

JM, I live in a small community, but I can name you dozens of families who take advantage of the safety net any way possible. (For example, they only work for “cash money”) They should hire themselves out as consultants to those who are not familiar with the system and just need a little help due to a job loss…..

Is it a good livelihood? No. But they get by with food stamps and the food bank and subsidized housing and AFDC and medicaid/peachcare/WIC and federal commodity distribution and heating programs for folks with low incomes and someone is always on “disability”. In March they get massive tax refunds due to EIC. Their kids get 2 squares a day free, or free prek or headstart. What is not to like? They don’t live like kings by any stretch, but—hey—they get by.

Last summer and fall I took fresh veggies from the garden to the food pantry. One commonality I noticed: they were all white, fat, and smoking. And they had time to be lined up an hour before the place opened! Not a “lazy Mexican” to be seen! Many looked with disdain upon the fresh beans, squash, and greens (too much trouble?)

For perspective on living at minimum wage level, I recommend reading “Nickled and Dimed”.

My observation is this: to break into this cycle, which is rapidly increasing IMHO as the middle class has fewer kids and the poor continue to have more, it will be necessary to encourage, economically, folks to develop a sense of “need to”. And we will do that by having consequences for poor decisions.

Until there is accountability all around, I doubt we will see improvement in dropout rates. In fact, it will get worse as more middle class parents flee the public schools.

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

Stacey - I would put those people (your family members) into the category that I mentioned called “giving up.” They believe that regardless of their actions they will be unable to get themselves out of that hole - and this includes working at a cashier job. Give them credit for recognizing that her daughter working as a cashier really did put that family at risk for losing their benefits - she was right. In addition, the meager minimum wage that the part time job would have brought in really won’t have changed their standard of living at all - it would still be below the poverty line.

IMHO, the solution isn’t to stop those benefits. All that would do is release many unskilled and uneducated people without hope onto the street to turn to crime. Do we really want that? IMHO, the solution is to find a way to train these people for jobs/careers that can lift them out of poverty for good - and, I think that would break the cycle of generational poverty of which you speak.

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

jd - Yes, public education is a form of government assistance. I would put it in the same category as paved roads, public librarys, etc. They are for the benefit for all of society’s population. It you want to use them, they are there for your use. If you don’t want to use them, then you can pay extra to go the private route - no vouchers, no tax credits, no extras of any kind. :-)

By FarLeftLoons

April 1, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Kick the bad kids out and bring back spanking. Remove all remnants of political correctness.

By John Ellison

April 1, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

The inner city black culture does not value education. This problem will continue until blacks integrate into a majority white American society.

By John Ellison

April 1, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

The inner city black culture does not value education. This problem will continue until blacks integrate into a majority white American society.

By redtop

April 1, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Some of you guys should apply for the superintendant’s job in Clayton County. YOU could make difference!!

By Sade

April 1, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

Public schools need to be revamped entirely. Education isn’t about aquiring knowledge anymore it’s all about numbers. How many students passed the test, how many passed the class, how many graduated? It’s easy to manipulate the numbers because no one has come up with a way to gage the ability to know how to think critically other than by taking a test.

It’s time to teach students to read first and foremost before they are introduced to any other subject, then introduce math. If a student shows a propensity for academics by age 12 they should have to pass a test to get into an adademic based high school which would be a precurser to college, like many European schools do.

Most students would benefit from learning a trade by the age of 12 before they start becoming a discipline problem in school especially if they are not academically inclined. If schools wait, like they do now, until a child graduates or drops out, before allowing them to learn a useful skill it might be too late - the bad behavior is already ingrained and most kids have given up or turned to the streets. Not everyone is cut out for academics.

I say quit requiring an academic curriculum for students, offer a choice - teach them a trade along with the necessary fundamentals for that trade which will enable them to earn a decent living.

I see too many students defeated by the constant testing and the daily academic grind that have given up. There are a lot of students with so much potenial if they could just learn a trade, go to work, and start earning a decent living.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

JM, my experience with an adult literacy program that was tied to AFDC payments (and had monies available for car repair and child care, if those were barriers) was pretty discouraging for what you are talking about. Even with the threat of losing the welfare payments, most of the women could not be motivated to change behaviors.

Could someone knowledgeable about the pre/post requirements for AFDC limits comment on this? My impression is that fewer folks are getting AFDC. So how are they “making it”? Are the working, or have they somehow disappeared (been taken in by family members, etc)?

What I have seen in students is that it is virtually impossible after about 3rd grade to turn around a kid who has determined that school isn’t for him. I have a VERY LARGE bag of tricks that I have used to try to motivate and break into the “don’t care” attitude, but I have found students less and less willing to go after their dreams, at younger and younger ages. Their aspiration is DOA. Every year a few get turned around, but only enough to keep me hoping.

By nono

April 1, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

For those of you who think that parents alone are the answer to better schools, I challenge you to think long and hard before you answer this question: so what happens to the children of drug addicts, alcoholics, and people who just plain don’t care about their kids—or worse, who abuse them? Don’t we as a society owe it to THOSE children, who for no fault other than fate are born to people who have no business raising kids and don’t take care of their needs other than food and a roof over their heads? Don’t they too deserve a future that is as bright and full of promise as a child whose parents are actively involved in their educations from day one?

To say that parents alone are the answer is narrow-minded and ignorant of an uncaring, harsh world that is the daily existence for millions of children in this country. To doom them because of mistakes their parents made is cruel and those of you against what you call “entitlement” programs should be ashamed. Before you are quick to judge, just remember the children who benefit from those programs—and thank God for blessing you with parents who actually cared what happened to you.

By Ed

April 1, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Boy is this an easy answer. First, lets see where there are “problems:” Any city of Atlanta school, any SW DeKalb school, Clayton County, or south Fulton county school. Now lets look where there are VERY few problems. East Cobb, Alpharetta/Roswell, Johns Creek/Forsyth. Now why is it that majority white schools have few problems and majority black schools have tons of problems? Funny how that works huh?

By catlady

April 1, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

To doom them because of mistakes their parents made is cruel

I am not sure anyone is saying to doom the children. What folks are saying is to MAKE the parents, who have largely been given a free pass, put forth an effort for their children. Make it worth their while to do the right thing. Or remove the children and punish the parents. In other words, give the children a chance. But attack the root of the problem so that it does not continue.

By jim d

April 1, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this

Rhetorical — employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected.

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this

It is my understanding that public schools stopped “tracking” students into vocational education vs. college prep because too many poor and/or minority students were “tracked” into vocational programs. It is politically correct to treat all students the same, irregardless of whether that treatment addresses their needs or abilities.

About the spanking comment, many South GA school still paddle, all the way up through high school. It doesn’t seem to help, other than to provide an alternative to out-of-school suspension. They can’t learn if they’re not at school, right?

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

Wise words, Catlady. I don’t have a problem with helping those who are not as lucky as I. However, I totally disagree with leaving children in homes with adult who are destroying them. Remove the children and punish the parents. I think orphanages were probably not pleasant places, but some of our students are being raised in HE77.

By RJ

April 1, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

ED you’re an idiot! I’m a graduate of an Atlanta Public School located in Buckhead where the rich white kids did more drugs than any of the students in the black school in which I teach now. And by the way, my kids South Fulton school has done quite well and it is NOT a Title I school. Where did you get your data? Get your facts straight!

By Erin

April 1, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

Actually, regardless of race, parents, income level or any of that stuff, one thing that would help a lot (though not cure all the problems schools face … I doubt anything could do that) is the realization that no matter how much we try to pass laws and make it seem true, not everyone is willing or able to be college material.

By catlady

April 1, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

Drugs and disfunctionality know no color or SES boundaries. In my county almost all ( 80%+) of the kids are white, and many come from families as sorry as can be.

Unless we break the cycle, we will never see an improvement. Right now, we rarely jerk the chain of parents who are doing the wrong thing, much less punish them. Remove the kids, and put the parents in jail. It will cost more for a while, but what we have been doing (making excuses, feeling sorry) has not worked. Kids need to see (on the part of their parents) and experience the results of poor decisions of their own.

I teach mostly Latino kids. Half of them (those whose parents are from Guatemala) are from families where neither parent is literate in any language. However, even with parents who cannot help them academically, they succeed because they have the “got to’s”. They have the basics—a work ethic and a sense of responsibility. You can go a long way with those two tools. Their parents hold them accountable for not shaming their families, and for making the most of their opportunities.

By Ed

April 1, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

There are drugs in EVERY school, black and white. There are NOT constant fights, rapes, and drive by shootings at both. Only black. That is not racist, just a fact. Deal with it.

By nono

April 1, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

Catlady, your comment “to MAKE the parents, who have largely been given a free pass, put forth an effort for their children. Make it worth their while to do the right thing. Or remove the children and punish the parents.” is logical to most people, but consider that we have a network of social workers who are overburdened, way too few foster homes, and laws that don’t protect children but instead seek to keep families together no matter what. Unfortunately, I speak from personal experience. My nieces and nephew are currently being raised by my sister and her abusive, meth addicted, alcoholic, on-parole ex-husband. He has driven around town with the kids in the car rip-roaring drunk on more than one occasion, beat my sister, and gets smashed every night, yet child protective services does nothing because my sister hasn’t been proven to be an unfit parent and she has custody of the kids—which means she can live anywhere she wants with them, even with him. Now, tell me that our society has done everything it can to protect my sweet little angels and give them a future—obviously our laws aren’t set-up to do that.

I do agree with your point, but we’re stuck with the reality, not the ideal that you’ve used as an example of fixing the problem. The reality is that the system isn’t set-up to protect kids—it’s designed to cost the least amount of MONEY.

By HS Teacher

April 1, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

U.S. to Require States to Use a Single School Dropout Formula

By SAM DILLON Published: April 1, 2008 Moving to sweep away the tangle of inaccurate state data that has obscured the severity of the nation’s high school dropout crisis, Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings will require all states to use one federal formula to calculate graduation and dropout rates, Bush administration officials said on Monday.

The requirement would be one of the most far-reaching regulatory actions taken by any education secretary, experts said, because it would affect the official statistics issued by all 50 states and each of the nation’s 14,000 public high schools.

By David Duke

April 1, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this

Thbe only way to improve the schools can be summed up with one word-segregation!

By jim d

April 1, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

Maybe we should start by fixing our 3rd graders first. Maybe then the high schools would fall in line within but a few years.

By TW

April 1, 2008 8:56 PM | Link to this

Dump senior year. They’re either taking college (AP) classes, or they’re screwing around. Graduate them from high school when they are ready to take college classes. Dump seior year - it is a joke. Ever taken a look at a senior’s schedule who is not taking AP classes? Joke. Many of them are even on what they call ‘minimum day’…make it ‘no day’.

Require them to serve that last year in the military, being that we are now locked in a lifetime of ‘war on terra’ thanks to our Republican commander in chief. What…don’t want to ‘support’ the war on terra????

By JustMe

April 1, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

jd - LOL. You are so predictable.

By Racebaiter

April 1, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this

Right TW, you left wing loon.

By David Duke

April 1, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this

The school systems, all over the country, started failing as soon as blacks were put into classes with whites. The goal of integration was to put black and white on the same level educationally and intellectually. Mission accomplished!

By Tony

April 1, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this

Ed - Just a reminder, but Columbine was mostly white, middle class. A few years before that, the shootings at the school in Arkansas were white shooters firing into a mostly white school. If you’ll check your facts, you’ll find that most of the notorious school shooting incidents have been whites at white schools.

By Tony

April 1, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

jim d-thanks for the 3rd grade article. I have friends down there in the swamp!

By Lisa B.

April 1, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

David Duke, Blacks make up only 13% of the nation’s population. One cannot blame all education’s problems on Blacks. I am afraid the problem goes much deeper. Schools are suffering from the breakdown of American families. Skyrocketing divorce rates over the last 30 years have caused many children to be raised in poor, single-parent households. Generational poverty and hopelessness have a huge impact on failure rates of today’s students.

By David Duke

April 1, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this

Lisa, what you say is true, as far as it goes. When integration was ordered, by Nixon, throughout the land, we saw the advent of the private academies and the beginning of the attack upon the public school system. Every Republican pinhead chief executive has done everything in his power to hasten the death of the public school system. It has been rendered little more than a humorless joke. Everyday, I see the result of public school education. Up until this semester, I teach in the University system of Georgia, I required a paper from my students. I dropped that requirement this time. It sickens me to read the sad renderings I’ve been the recipient of. Young people, for the most part, have no ability to express anything on paper. Since integration started the level of reading comprehension and the ability to write expressively and coherently have declined to unfathomable levels. Now, I’m not saying that race is the determining factor but what I am saying is that the precipitous decline in the educability of young people started when the busses rolled to bring equality to the school system. Equality has been achieved! Kids of all races can’t read, can’t master a check book, can’t pass the S.A.T. test, can’t hack school long enough to get a diploma and don’t seem to care either. As Malcolm Little(X) once said,”the chickens are coming home to roost.”

By Lisa B.

April 2, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this

David Duke, it has taken years for me to believe it, but I finally realize that the ultimate goal of polical leaders is to dismantle public education. Billions of dollars are spent on public education, and as you said in your post, the results are less than stellar. Lots of things happened in the last 30-40 years to cause today’s problems. Increased divorce rates, increased welfare benefits, (President Johnson’s ‘Great Society’ comes to mind), the Women’s Rights Movement, the Civil Rights movement, the War in Vietnam, etc. created a massive societal change in this country. We’re living now with the results. I think we should wake-up and make some changes in education, if it isn’t too late.

As I said before, problems in public schools reflect problems in society. Maybe public education should be dismantled. Maybe we should start over. I’ve worked as a teacher many years and see no solutions. Still, I don’t give up. If I don’t keep trying, who will? Whatever changes come to pass in education, I am in this for the duration.

By David Duke

April 2, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this

Ed has it exactly right. The crime rate, especially the violent variety, is exceedingly high among blacks. You may not like that but it’s not news to anyone. You may argue otherwise and try to deflect by talking about Columbine and other tragedies but you know that, overall, the rate of crime among white youth is far below that of blackie.

By Winfield J. Abbe

April 2, 2008 6:11 AM | Link to this

The many excellent statements above reflect the obvious frustration and contradictions in the mission of public schools. It almost seems that we have degenerated to the point where the very idea of public education and any “education” at all are now challenged. Here are some comments, some of which may have been mentioned by others above. 1. The entire structure of public education must be critically evaluated and changed. One of the first changes must be to remove the military administrative structure where the principal is the “general” and the teachers are “privates”. Everyone has heard the phrase “the scum rises to the top” and this describes most principals and superintendents. 2. Teachers must be provided very broad powers and very broad immunity by the state. But they must be selected much more carefully than they are today. Political correctness must be removed from school. If a student is doing something that is wrong, that student must be informed immediately and action must be taken immediately. The first action must be by the local teacher. 3. Laws must be changed permitting parents to discipline children again. If necessary, parents must be required to attend classes on parenting. 4. The research is clear an indisputable that pregnant mothers who drink and smoke while pregnant impair the intelligence of the child. Of course taking drugs is even worse. We must take our heads out of the same and stop using the “privacy” argument against interfering with these negligent mothers. What “right” does a mother have to impair the intelligence of an innocent child? 5. Children and girls must be prevented from having children if they are not able financially or otherwise. We cannot continue on the politically correct path of permitting anybody and everybody to have sex and become pregnant and saddle all the problems of children with impaired intelligence and nutritional problems and drug problems on the rest of society and expecting the property owners to mostly pay for it all. This scenario must somehow end. Some girls are simply going to have to be prevented from having children. We must take our heads out of the politically correct sand. 6. All candy and soft drinks and “snacks” must be removed from public schools. No foods are to consumed at any time other than meal time by anyone on campus period. High and low blood sugar are also causes of abberrant behavior. These snacks also cause other problems. 7. We must abandon the idea that everyone is a college prep student. Many students at college don’t belong there anyway. Unfortunately the colleges are partly responsible for this because all they care about is large numbers of unqualified students too, and their standards have been dropping just like the standards of public secondary schools, as one of the posters above has mentioned. As a number of posters have also mentioned, a vocational trac must be provided and encouraged. Most college graduates cannot even change a fawcet washer or read the directions to assemble toys at Christmas anyway, let alone fill out tax returns. 8. Reading is the key to all learning, knowledge and understanding in all subjects. The prime emphasis in public schools must be on reading first, followed by writing and mathematical skills. Every student must have some vocational skills and exposure to vocational eduation. All students must appreciate what others do, be they janitors, food preparation employees or automobile mechanics or any other trade or profession. Just because one goes to college does not make them better than others. In fact, many college gradustes today cannot even read. 9. The war on drugs is a total failure just as prohibition was decades ago. With all the billions of public dollars spent in an effort to prevent drugs, as some of the above posters said, there is no shortage of them by any segment of the population of any color. Our entire society has been corrupted by them from police departments operating in secret, to district attorneys, lawyers, politicians, and on and on and on. Drugs must be legalized and regulated. This is the only answer. We must take our heads out of the sand on this issue like so many other issues society has failed on. But as with alcohol, it is legalized yet many of the problems with impairment of intelligence of children, making it difficult to hold their attention in a “learning” environment, arise from abuses of alcohol and smoking by the mother before the child was even born. This is why the power of the state, as much as we might not like it, must be used to stop this unconscionable behavior of ignorant mothers to be toward innocent children, being seed which causes so many problems for so many teachers down the road of life of that innocent child. 10. Television for children should be strictly limited. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to prevent it altogether but that would be just as impossible as preventing alcohol and drugs and smoking. Perhaps we may soon reach a point when most children will have to be removed from the parents as they are such a failure with their own children. 11. Money is at the bottom of all public education failures. So long as the schools can use the force of government to force property owners and others to pay for their failures year in and year out, nothing will ever change in any meaningful way. The laws must be changed to end this flow of money from property owners. Young couples must be prevented from having babies they cannot afford and expect the rest of society to pay for. This absolutely must end. Winfield J. Abbe A.B., Physics, UC Berkelely, 1961 Ph.D., Physics, UC Riverside, 1966 Athens, GA

By Todd

April 2, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Uhh … whoever the retard was the wanted to remove grade levels by age—WAKE UP. I teach middle school and we have kids ranging from 11 to 18.

Is that safe? No.

Let me repeat myself for the liberal commies out there who think education is an inherent right (when it is really a social welfare program that thugs use for food and babysitting).

We have kids who range from 11 to 18 (at least three 18 year olds) in grades 6, 7, and 8 at my school alone.

By WFC

April 2, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

BRAVO Winfied J. Abbe…EVERY POINT is right on target!

Schools serve many purposes, not the least of which is to keep rampaging teens isolated from the rest of society. Face it… simply because it’s the truth!

“Educational leadership” is a joke. The “careerists” rise to the top. For example, in Fulton County, the Assoc. Super for “curriculum & instruction” is Bob Burke. I served as an administrator under him at Chattahoochee HS for four years and have never met an “educator” LESS interested in “curriculum and instruction.” To give Bob his due, he was a hard working and skilled manager. He could run a successful Wal Mart or even do well in school construction. But, having him in charge of curriculum and instruction is a crime against nature.

How many HS principals in Georgia are true scholars? Shows the priorities better than anything else. I taught six years in private schools. Both principals I worked under could and DID teach the occasional high level academic course. I can’t say that any of the public school principals could have done that! Got the picture?

By Sharon

April 2, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

I’m a black woman and as much as I know it’s true that violent crime is more prolific in majority black schools, it’s kinda hard NOT to get on the defensive when I’m called blackie. What do you expect? I think you’d find more black people who would agree with you than not. There is a handful of bad apples (handful is relatively speaking, of course) that’s spoiling the bunch, but when black people are called blackie, niglets, “n’s”, and such, it’s very hard to swallow an already bitter pill. I’m an educated person and I’m sure the average white person will find for every thug, drug dealer, welfare receipient, Section 8 dwelling baby mama (and their white counterpart) there are TEN honest, hard-wokring, educated, home-owning, taxpaying, law abiding citizens. I think most of us just want the generalizations to stop. I’m not responsible for Tyrone down the street — I’m responsible for Kevin, Kayla, and Kevin, Jr.

By Gwinnett Educator

April 2, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

Sharon, I agree with you so much! Reading this blog has become so disheartening for me. I am also an educated black woman and used to love to read this blog (along with several others) just to learn new things. (I am an information JUNKIE). I know everyone is entitled to a point of view, however, as I read the racist comments, it’s truly making me sad.

I will never be able to change my color (and have no desire to do so) but it makes me so sad and angry that so many people out there are sweeping ALL blacks under the same rug. I am truly afraid of the world that my daughter has to grow up in. It’s so sad knowing that to so MANY of you, when you see me, or even a face like mine, you automatically think the worst.

I look at my class and see nothing but black and spanish speaking children (one asian) and I wonder, if only they had an IDEA of what you all are saying about them and their “future”..how would they feel or even act? (they are 1st graders). Would they even want to try knowing that the people around them think the worst of them and call them animals?

By Thomas

April 2, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

As a white person that has grown up around majority black people, I do see both sides of this issue….

Sharon and GwinnettEducator You said that you don’t like the names such as ‘niglet, blackies, etc.” and yet most often those names come FROM black people, not white people. If you really feel that those names are hurting people, then black people should not be using those names at all! Have either of you scolded other blacks for using those types of names?

When white people see black preachers on TV saying way more racist things than anyone, how do you expect white people to react? Do you really think that white people will welcome with open arms those black preachers or those people in that church? It appears to us that they are teaching racism and hatred towards white people.

If you do protest racist remarks coming from blacks (regardless of who it is aimed at), and if you also scold any black person using those names, then you are doing the right thing!

Bottom line is…. you gotta clean your own house before you can criticize other people’s house!

By Gwinnett Educator

April 2, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

@Thomas, I am one of those that do NOT condone naming calling. YES, I stand strong on that. However, I must say that I am tired of people using the excuse of “well, you all say it”. Ok, just because SOME ignorant black people choose to use that terminology on each other..does that make it right? Does that make you (general you) say…hey, well, its ok to call him a ngg* because they say it too. If people DO think it is ok to model after ignorance, then they need to check that at the door.

On to the “racist” preachers..(I have to admit, I am still rolling my eyes off of that) PLEASE do not assume all black preachers preach this way! I am one that have gone to all white and all black churches. In Fla, my parents and I were the ONLY 3 white people in that church. It remained that way the 2 yrs we lived there. When we moved here, my parents and I attended another white congregation. Including myself and my parents, there were 9 black people there. Over the yrs, as other black families joined, the white families that had been worshipping there for YRS mysteriously “found” another congregation to attend..(supposedly closer to their homes) There were 3 husbands, 3 wives, 3 daughters. Then came a black family of 5 and another of 3. We were NOT in the pulpit, not trying to take over a thing but simply worshipping GOD along side others who HAPPENED to be white. All of a sudden, there were 17 black people and waaaaaaaaaaaay too many for some so they left.

My daddy said, a lot of people are going to have gate trouble because heaven isnt seperated.

However, at the end of the day, my feelings remain the same. I see and LIVE in constant racism. It amazes me how what Wright said, people all of a sudden became SO flabbergasted when we ALL know much worse has been said by our white counterparts at different times in our lives.

(no, it doesnt make it right, but i wish people would stop acting as if this was the FIRST time a person has said something of this magnitude, regardless the race…and that includes the emails that are forwarded to us..with the “dumb blonde”, “dumb mexican”, “dumb polish” “trailer trash”, etc etc etc

By SET

April 2, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

Hear’s my take on the “racist” stuff. I don’t care what names people want to use - I’m interested in their experience and the truth behind their point of view. As far as blacks go, Google “The Color Of Crime”. That’s interesting. So what? It’s only news to people who live in a fantasy world.

The US ran public education for a long time without turning it over to thugs and letting the performance run down. If we are having worse performance now than in 1950 it’s because the ruling class of the US gave up educating the proletariat and allowed the public schools to go to seed. I don’t blame the black underclass for being what they are as much as I blame white liberals feeding thugs welfare and free medical care. What did they think they would grow? And everybody knew the welfare state would produce different results in Asians vs blacks.

When and If the US gets desperate enough - say during The Great Depression II which we are about to start - maybe there will be some changes in this country that will include restoring public education to functionality. Hope the fix the potholes in the interstates also.

What’s called for is ruthless segregation of students by performance, elimination of compulsory education in favor of voc ed/forced labor/labor programs, probably a return of the draft, introduction of severe corporal punishment for juvenile and adult crime. (The same things done during the last depression) This doesn’t mean people can’t be happy and fulfilled. When you have millions of refugees migrating around the country, starvation and food riots and a complete breakdown of healthcare, etc, people can find satisfaction in honest work, law and order and sufficient food. Yes we just might be able to fix the schools.

As far as the black population goes keep a close watch on the HIV infection rates. There is geometric progression going on in the infection rates for blacks going back to 1980. Follow the trend out for 20 years in the future. You can only be so dumb for so long nowadays before evolution culls you.

As far as the Urban public schools go - it’s all about race (especially refusal to take corrective action). Our refusal to get control of the situation now means worse conditions in the future.

By gwinnett educator

April 2, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

oops I mean to say my parents and I were the only 3 BLACK people at the church in fla.

By Sharon

April 2, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Thomas - like I said before (sorry for the delay… I’m at WORK!), I expect to be treated as an individual. I’ve never preached about anything and I belong to a church that’s about 40% black, 40% white, and 20% Spanish, Asian, and multi-cultural. I’ve NEVER used a derogatory work for a black person (my momma would’ve back handed me in the mouth!) and I’ve NEVER maintained relationships with people who have.

You’re talking about “cleaning house”. WHOSE house?! Black people’s “house”?? Like I said before — I’M NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DECIDE TO LIVE IN A “DIRTY HOUSE”! MY house is CLEAN! Me… mine…hello… one person here…

By SET

April 2, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Can’t believe I used the wrong “Hear” - oh well, that’s blogging.

By catlady

April 2, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Nono—I agree with you. Just today in the local paper is an article decrying how “quick” DFACS is to “break up families”. Now, the person who wrote this must be on some other planet, because unless the parent is actually KILLING the child in front of witnesses, I have not seen DFACS jump in to help. It is always, “Oh, they need parenting classes” or “Someone needs to show them how to clean house”. Now, that may be true, they may need those things, but they should always be AFTER the security,health, and welfare of the child is secured. We teachers report, but we never know if the report ever gets to DFACS. Our school social worker seems to do triage, and minimize many things that are very important. Only the most extreme cases EVER seem to be resolved in favor of the child. The reporting person needs to be notified in writing that DFACS is “on it.” Not how it is resolved, necessarily, but that DFACS is aware.

What I am saying is what is needed. I am not saying it will EVER happen. Our sense of personal liberty seems to extend to doing whatever we want. I think one day we will look back and say (as we did when folks finally began to take drunk driving seriously), “Why did we ever put up with that?”

Many folks respond to a carrot, but quite a few don’t respond unless there is a VERY big stick.

By David Duke

April 2, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Indeed, Sharon, it is not your fault and you are not to be held responsible for the behavior of others. The difference between you and others, black and white, is that you had parents with expectations and rules of behavior. Sadly, in today’s world, many children don’t have parents that offer a guide as to how to live in this world. We are all paying the price for their abdication.

By David Duke

April 2, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Anybody read about the actions of the Honorable Marvin Arrington? He cleared his courtroom of whites in order to speak to the sea of black defendants before him. If a white judge had done this to speak to only those of his own race it would be national news. Black, racist,preachers would be howling about the injustice of it all. Ofcourse, that’s not the case here. The judge is black and all the defendants were black. The color of crime is, for the most part, black. There are more young, black men in prison than in college. They are there for a reason. They are criminals! Bill Cosby can’t change it. No one else can either. Criminality runs in the black race. It was always this way and it shall remain so. The only hope of saving the white race is to re-segregate now!

By catlady

April 2, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

You can only be so dumb for so long nowadays before evolution culls you.

SET, what worries me is those “dumb ones” either taking me out before they go, or leaving behind more little “dumb ones” for me to raise!

By Lee

April 2, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Actually….

High schools are the one segment of public education that is doing something right. That is, a student may segregate himself by ability/aptitude by enrolling in A/P, Honors, College Prep, general, and vocational/technical courses.

Unfortunately, it is too little, too late in most cases.

The problems with public education begins in elementary grades. By the time the student reaches high school, his/her lot in life is pretty much set.

In the lower grades, our schools continue to place all students, from the genious to the borderline retard, in a single classroom and then commence to teach to the lowest commom denominator.

Bottom line, if you want to fix the high dropout percentage, you have to fix the elementary schools.

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