By Mark

March 31, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

Good question. Ideally there should not be a need for any pre-kindergarten preparation. Every child should come from a home where he has been talked to frequently, read to frequently and expected to follow directions from an adult. Unfortunately, however, that is not the case.

IQ is pretty much fixed by the time a child reaches kindergarten. A child with broad experiences and a strong vocabulary will most likely do well in school. A child with limited experiences and those who have only been plopped in front of a TV will most likely struggle.

So, whose responsibility is pre-k instruction? Obviously, it’s the parents….but when the parents aren’t doing their jobs we are faced with the question of: Will the state take over parenting duties or will we let those floundering kids grow up to be floundering adults?

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Whatever happened to Kindergarten being the prep class for grade school?

At least that’s how it used to be. If Kindergarteners were expected to know things, then it would be 1st grade, and not by definition a preparatory grade.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

I’m coming more and more to a ‘sins of the fathers’ view of parenting. It is the way the world has worked for thousands of years before liberalism, and it is the way the world will work thousands of years after our great great great granchildren’s great great great grandchildren are dead.

Parents should do their jobs at this level and make sure their kids are ready for school. But if they fail, it isn’t the big deal that liberals would have you think it is. At that point, it then becomes the child’s responsibility to overcome it. And in that act of overcoming, they will learn FAR more than any school could ever hope to teach them.

As with anything else, when life throws you a curve you can either shift the blame and be stuck where you are, or you can deal with it, overcome it, and move on.

A major problem with this country right now is that we allow people to get stuck out of our need to be ‘compassionate’. But every time I see that, I ‘Remember the Titans’. Specifically the scene I metioned last week where Coach Yoast (Will Patton) takes a kid to the side after Coach Boone (Denzel Washington) has just chewed the kid up one side and down the other. The next scene, where Boone confronts Yoast (in the stairwell, I believe) is CLASSIC: “The world don’t give a dam about how sensitive these kids are, especially the young black kids. You ain’t doin’ these kids a favor by patronizing them. You crippling them; You crippling them for life..”

By jim d

March 31, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this

As long as the state continues to prop up p** poor parenting it will thrive. Time to put the burden back where it belongs for raising kids.

Some of us grow up, naturally assuming that responsibility and have a problem understanding why anyone would entrust the state with raising a child. In my opinon it is time for some dads to step up to the plate, grow some testicular fortitude, and raise their own damn kids.

By Truth

March 31, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

If the parents are too irresponsible to take care of their children, there are already programs to get the kids help that they need. We have a state DFACS that should be taking those children away before we should give free day care to everyone. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just have the people “fixed” that couldn’t properly take care of their own children? How about anyone getting government assistance should be fixed. We need licenses to drive, to be a teacher, an engineer, a plumber, and even to get married. Why can’t we have a license to bring more lives into this world? Where does the Constitution say that you have a right to have a child that you cannot afford to take care of? If you wanted a child that you couldn’t afford we could let you have some land out west for you to farm so you could provide for your family.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

WOW! Jim actually came out AGAINST parents!

Welcome to enlightenment, my friend! :P

By HS Teacher Too

March 31, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

Studies show students who enter kindergarten prepared are less likely to repeat grades, drop out or need special education programs.

Um, did I miss something? Since when is merely being behind sufficient for special ed services? Doesn’t one have to “test into” special ed by showing a learning disability of some sort?

I’m only being partially sarcastic here. So, serious answers will be appreciated. The only thing I can think of is that a child can get sooooo behind that the tests would show results that mimic disability just because the child’s skill set is so weak and below grade level. Is that what happens?

By Teach1

March 31, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

If you think that K is just First Grade prep, you are going to be in for a rude awakening when your children get to school. Students are being required to know more and more at younger ages. PLEASE be an informed parent and look at the DOE(Department of Education) website and review the standards that are inplace for K and grade 1. Hey for that matter take a look at the sample CRCT questions. I don’t know where things are getting watered down but it is NOT in first grade!

By jim d

March 31, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I’ve never stated that parental envolvement NEVER entered the picture.

I do object to people that constantly blame parents and generalize, making it appear that ALL parents suck. That’d be about like me stating ALL teachers suck. We all know that isn’t the case, but we also know that in some cases, Some do.

The same applies to parents. SOME do their job while Some don’t.

By Truth Filter

March 31, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

I believe parents should be responsible for preparing their kids for Kindergarten (and everything else in life, too!).

But here’s the reality: Many parents don’t. Isn’t it the role of government to give these kids a fighting chance. It’s not their fault they were born to bad parents. I’m not saying Government should do EVERYTHING for them — but at least give them a shot.

If no one helps them out, they’ll end up being society’s problem anyway: welfare, crime, prison, etc.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

TF:

The Government already gives them that shot by providing them with a K-12 education (and GA goes even further by providing them with a college education as well).

No extra services necessary.

By Vicki

March 31, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

jim d,

I agree with you all the way.

My husband and I prepared our boys for school. We feel they are doing a pretty good job at school; they both are A - few B students. Zero discipline problems at school. Though our 2nd tends to forget assignments at home one a month. I see his work on the table and let him know he needs to pack up his backpack, but I won’t remind him more than once. I know we are responsible parents.

I just get really tried of several regular posters blaming EVERYTHING on bad parenting. (Dang, it’s a cloudy day, must be due to bad parenting.) All parents don’t suck and just like you said, all teachers don’t suck.

And Jeff, you are so wet behind the ears, you don’t even know how foolish you sound with all your so-called parenting knowledge. You really are clueless and you don’t realize how everything changes after you have children. Truly naive!

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

Teach1: My kids are already in school. We did prepare them, as we had them in pre-school before hand.

My point is that when Kindergarten was first implemented in Georgia, it was as a prep program for 1st Grade. Now it seems that Teachers want the kids to come in prepared to know the things that Kindergarten was created to teach them in the first place.

Perhaps maybe you have forgotten that, or were not around when Kindergarten was created. Because you obviously don’t know/remember the arguments given in the legislature when it was started. Perhaps you should be an informed teacher.

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

Looked at the Standards site, www.georgiastandards.org
Funny thing, it shows standards of what the kids should know upon completion of the grade, not entry requirements. In other wards, the teachers are expected to teach those things to the kids, not the parents prior to them going to that grade.

By Lisa B.

March 31, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Sometimes, I think we should bring back orphanages. It seems that trying to prop up some parents so they can keep their children with them is a failed experiment in many cases. A 7th grader told me the other day that he reads on a second grade level, and plans to stay at that level til he turns 16 and drops out. When I asked what type of work he’ll do, he explained that he’s going to sit on the sofa and watch television during the day and go clubbing at night. Women get checks and give men money so they’ll stay around. He says it all works out better if the guy has more than one girlfriend. What????????

Any child fathered by that boy will be better off raised in an orphange. He learned that type of thinking form his environment and isn’t the only kid who thinks like that.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Vicki:

I may not know how to get a 14 month old that is throwing a tantrum to shut up (I’ve got a few ideas, but I doubt the ladies on Momania would be willing to try them, though I suspect the dads would.).

HOWEVER, my insight into the human condition is generally pretty accurate. I’ve spent 25 years observing it, and doing so continues to be one of my hobbies.

And my observation regarding overcoming challenges and ‘sins of the fathers’ is proven by the historical record, including the likes of Plato and Socrates, not to mention Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, and even a man named Yeshua ben Yoseph… better known as Jesus of Nazareth.

By TJW

March 31, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

It definitely needs to be the parent’s obligation to ensure that their child is ready for school. Unfortunately, there are SOME parents who will happily ignore their kids, so lets give these parents a motivating force…

Are you receiving Welfare / Gov’t Aid? Great, These programs are all now tied to your child’s performance in school. If they do well, you get your handout. If the do NOT do well, then NO SOUP FOR YOU. This effects both Mom and Dad, even if seperate… For those who are not, then an Tax Credit / Tax Penalty would apply.

As for the Students, School needs to be seen as a privilege, not a right. Currently there IS NO PUNISHMENT SYSTEM, they cause a problem, they get suspended/expelled??? If their causing that much of a problem then they likely don’t want to be there anyway, so all suspending them is doing is POSITIVELY reinforcing their behavior! Lets try giving them a real wake up call… Don’t want to be in school, great, we need these 100 soccer balls sewn, get to work! Welcome to the real world, we need our burger flippers as well as our engineers…

Ultimately there is no punishment for bad parenting unless it is taken to the extremes (abuse), and as long as society is willing to step in assume responsibily for the problem, the cause of the problem will never go away.

By Lisa B.

March 31, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

I’ve done quite a bit of research on the “achievement gap.” Much of it is attributed to environment. When 4-year-olds enter Pre-K, MOST children from the middle class homes are better prepared to learn than MOST children from impoverished backgrounds. Research shows that middle class babies and toddlers hear approximately 2100 words per hour. Babies and toddlers in poor homes hear approximately 600 words per hour. Middle class parents are more likely to read to their children and have reading materials in the house. Middle class parents allow less time watching television, and spend more time in museums, zoos, etc. Obviously, when there are two adults in the home, there are more conversations, more money, and more time to spend with children. Single parents have the entire workload to handle alone. When the single parent is washing clothes, there’s no other parent around to put the kids to bed and read a bedtime story. With one income, money is tight.

Please don’t lambast me with examples of successful people who were in raised in poverty by single mothers. I know there are exceptions. On the flip side, we’ve all seen people raised in middle class homes with all sorts of advantages, who turned out to be worthless adult. I am referring to research that discusses trends.

What happens at home prior to the schooling years makes a BIG difference. I’m of the mind that if the parent/parents cannot provide what kids need to be ready for school, it has to be provided some other way, or society pays the price forever.

By teach1

March 31, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Bobby: Perhaps, but keep in mind that you chose to send your child to a pre-k program. Why was that?

As for the standards based on the end of the year -wouldn’t it make sense that if you were looking for your child to enter 1st grade you would look at the standards for K? I was only suggesting looking at the standards to see the intensity of primary education. Most parents of First Graders are stunned by the concepts covered and the expectations for their children.

By kinderbabe

March 31, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

To everyone who thinks they may have a proper response to this topic, here’s some info coming from a KINDERGARTEN TEACHER.:)

First of all, one of the problems in Georgia w/kindergarten is that it is not technically a required grade. Reason being that parents are not legally required to enroll children in school until age 7. Only then does it become a child neglect issue.

Kindergarten does require preparation whether parents think so are not b/c it does have academic requirements. Readiness tests are given upon entry, mid-year and at the end of the year for students. Children are able to be retained for not meeting basic kindergarten requirements. It is no longer an introduction to grade school. Kindergarten has expectations….high ones at that.

Without any prior informal or formal schooling, it is difficult for the average child to become acclimated w/social and academic concepts introduced in kindergarten. 7.5 hours a day for 180 days is not enough to prepare a child for 1st-5th grade. It has to start before then. Kindergarten is a real grade not just play time and naps. Things have changed.

By jim d

March 31, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Vicki,

Actually I must give 100% of the credit for preparing my child for school to the better half. She did a hell of a job! The schools job has been to impart knowledge he will need to be successful. My job has been to prepare him for life and teach him a bit of reverance. If we’ve all done our jobs right he stands a pretty damn good chance of making it.

By kinderbabe

March 31, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Also, please visit this website: www.doe.k12.ga.us. Under the subtopic of “testing”, infor is given about the Geogia Kindergarten Assessment Program (GKAP). Under the GKAP-R Resources menu choose “Progress Profiles.” This will tell you what types of tasks entering kindergartens are expected to perform.

By jim d

March 31, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

babe,

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t voice an opinon on if the changes were for the better. :)

By JustMe

March 31, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

I want to point something out… and I already know that some will say that I am “liberal” but what I am saying is true!

During the “Leave It To Beaver” days, one parent worked and the other parent stayed home. The mother that stayed at home gave her 100% attention to the home and to the kids. And, because of this, the kids did get more ‘parenting.’

Today, few households have a stay-at-home parent. With both parents working, they are forced to leave their toddler with a sitter or an agency that likely doesn’t care need enough about their child as they should. Is this the parents fault?

Realize that some households MUST have both parents working just to make ends meet. Are those children doomed? Do we, as a society, automatically make those children second-class students/citizens?

Or, do we, as a society, try to give every toddler minimal attention to try and maximize their development? What is the best choice for our society?

By kinderbabe

March 31, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

jim d you know, i don’t particularly think that all the changes are for the better. Since kindergarten is the first “formal” grade of schooling for a lot of children, it puts an intense amount of pressure on teachers to work a miracle. The requirements are more rigorous but the preparation is moving with the increased expectation. With grades 1st-5th, it is almost automatic to look at the teacher/experience in the grade prior in order to account for deficits in a particular child’s performance. Kindergarten teachers don’t have that luxury. Not only do we not have anyone to “blame” but we are the ones who are blamed for not getting children up to speed for 1st thru 5th grades. It’s like being expected to work a miracle in some cases. Making kindergarten required in Georgia is a first step in making educators and especially parents take it more seriously. That would mean making the legal school age 5. For some, the imposing threat of having DFACS involved if their child was not enrolled by that age may help.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

JM:

The best choice for society is to not allow individuals any excuse. Who cares if your parents were crappy? Who cares that you have ‘EBD’? Who cares that your father was an idiot alcoholic (is there any other kind?) and didn’t read to you every night at 8:15 sharp?

What society DOES care about is that you overcame that and became a productive citizen. Socierty already gives you the tools to do that by providing a free education K-12, and as I said earlier, GA goes even further and provides a free education through college.

The better choice for society is simple: Allow individuals the chance to rise or fall based on their OWN actions, regardless of where they came from.

By making exceptions to that based on a child’s parents’ level of income or stupidity, you are being patronizing to that child, and you are CRIPPLING them for LIFE.

By HS Teacher Too

March 31, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

At that point, it then becomes the child’s responsibility to overcome it. And in that act of overcoming, they will learn FAR more than any school could ever hope to teach them.

Jeff, while this is not incorrect, the piece that you are missing is that the mentality to know that it is their responsibility is still a product of the home from which the child comes. We talk all the time on this blog about the self-perpetual nature of poverty cycles, and to a large extent we are talking about poor kids here. I’m not suggesting that it isn’t the kid’s responsibility, but it is short-sighted to stop there and not realize that more often than not, the kids aren’t equipped to either know it is their responsibility, or to be able to do much about it.

Sounds pretty liberal and bleeding heart, which I am not… but we can’t put our heads in the sane and say as we want it to be, it shall be, and pretend that there aren’t other considerations.

Bobby, are you saying that you’d prefer kindergarten go back to the days where it was preparatory? I am not really sure I am following your point, other than maybe to complain about the name. Can you explain a little more?

As for me, I do wish we’d stop with all this pushing-down. I can’t speak about development at the lower grades, but I know that on the middle/high school level, the state is trying to push Algebra lower and lower. Anyone who’s taken any child/adolescent development classes knows that younger kids simply don’t have the abstract reasoning skills. So, we wonder why are kids do so poorly, but the answer is right in front of us: we try to get them to do things that they are truly not developmentally ready to do. They get frustrated, and by the time they are ready to do it they are already turned off by their earlier frustrations. [Jeff, before you jump in and tell me we should be teaching Algebra in kindergarten, there is a difference between what the systems are trying to do by pushing the entire course down to kids who aren’t ready for it, and merely teaching underlying concepts – which by all means, I agree ought to be part of the curricula at lower grade levels.]

By V for Vendetta

March 31, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

LOL Jeff, you’re twenty-five? First time I’ve ever heard your age and it explains a lot!

Look, I agree with much of what Jeff and Jim D said. We can’t go around picking up the slack for people who make the wrong CHOICES. In the end, they’ve made the wrong CHOICE and they should have to pay for it.

Although, as a culture and a society, we could improve a lot of aspects of our lives if we applied that theory to ALL walks of life.

By JustMe

March 31, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

Jeff - Explain what you said in your last post to a 3 year old and see how far you get! I would agree with you if we were talking about older children, but…. these 3 year olds haven’t made any choice(s) in their lives. Yet, you (and others) seem so willing to let them fail?

Do you also blame the fetus for an abortion? Did the fetus make the wrong choice?

By Erin

March 31, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

I actually agree with Jeff’s post at 11:56, where he said that people should be allowed to rise or fall on their own …

But with ONE caveat … If the parents are poor, or the family is out of whack (mom uses drugs, dad’s an alcoholic, etc.) then the kids may not know of the options out there to them.

Give them information on those options to better their lives. Then let them do with that information what they will. If they take it and run with it, that’s great. If not, they can’t say they didn’t know any better.

Sounds easy enough, but it’ll never happen, right?

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

HST2:

Right now, a kid will NEVER learn responsibility because society does not FORCE it.

Only when society stops covering for poor decision making will people ever learn responsibility. We see this even in the current credit crises. People went out and bought houses they could never possibly afford. And now they are losing them, and the government is trying to step in - like a Big Brother - and ‘protect’ these idiots. They will NEVER learn responsibility if this happens. Allow them to fall flat on their face. YES, it will hurt. It may even outright destroy a few of them. But FAR MORE will learn a valuable lesson that they will never again repeat. Same as a 2 yo touching a hot stove. If the parent moves his hand before he does, he never learns that he shouldn’t do it. If he touches the hot stove, the pain INSTANTLY tells him not to do that again!

V:

Although, as a culture and a society, we could improve a lot of aspects of our lives if we applied that theory to ALL walks of life.

Completely agree.

BTW: I’m at that age now where Democrats start waking up (most of them anyway) and become Republicans. If two years ago was as liberal as I’m ever going to get (which right now I’d say is fairly likely), can you imagine how conservative I’ll be in 60 years???

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

Erin:

If the schools are doing their jobs, the kid will have the critical thinking skills and saavy to find any information they need and analyze it.

JM:

Explain ANY adult concept to a 3yo. You won’t get far.

But explain to a 3yo that if he touches a hot stove, he WILL get burned. He’ll know what you’re talking about.

Compulsory schooling from roughly age 7 through roughly age 16 is mandatory throughout most of this country, and I support that. But it should be the primary goal of that 9 years of life to fulfill a two-fold mission: 1) Impart content knowledge as decreed by the state. 2) Enforce personal responsibility in all areas of school life.

Note that I include ALL areas here. Don’t have homework? You get a ZERO. Cheat on an assignment? You get a ZERO. Don’t have the proper instrument for band class? You get a ZERO. Don’t have the proper attire for gym class? You have to walk around stinking all day. Don’t have lunch money? You go hungry. Don’t have your book for class? If the teacher assigns work from the book for classwork, you take a ZERO. Don’t have a pencil? If it is needed, you are up the creek! The list goes on….

By JustMe

March 31, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Jeff - Actually, research has shown that most people start off very conservative and then over time become more liberal. Studies were done on the Supreme Court rulings and how the Judges voted over their lifetime that showed them leaning more liberal over time.

By eleteach

March 31, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I agree that there really should be more accountability to parental decisions. And no, I don’t think that the answer is to continue to add programs at younger and younger ages… however,

I noticed you keep mentioning the “sins of the father…. Moses, Joshua…” Just curious… do you believe in mission work?

By Tony

March 31, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

How far should the government go in raising our children? That question is being answered daily by people who abdicate morals for the “feel good” moments. Then, when baby comes along we not only pay the mother for having the child, we enter into an agreement to provide healthcare and an education.

The writers who state this is not the child’s fault are correct. So what should be done? It is my belief that irresponsible parenting begins the moment the government has to start any kind of payment program to support the child(ren). These parents should not be entitled to keep their children if they are not capable of raising them. There are plenty of good couples waiting to adopt children who will be able to provide sufficient resources for the child to flourish.

Another point of early childcare programs is not just related to learning. It is related to providing government sponsored babysittting so the parents can work. Is this a responsible way to raise children? I don’t think so.

Our government has established many programs that reward failure. This only serves to reinforce further failure. I am not for stranding kids without good opportunities to access a good education. But there should be intervention with the adults who perpetuate these problems. STOP HAVING BABIES YOU CAN’T AFFORD!

These are moral questions that politicians shy away from because they fear the backlash it would create.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

JM:

“If you’re conservative at 20, you have no heart. If you’re liberal at 30, you have no brain.”

Saying isn’t exactly that, but it is close, and from what I’ve seen, true.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

eleteach:

I believe that the CHURCH is supposed to be doing much of what government now does.

And I don’t mind the CHURCH - or any other PRIVATE organization - doing it. Those organizations have always helped the very ones that the government programs are trying to help, but by their limited scope they never truly had a massive impact on society in general.

My problem primarily lies with the GOVERNMENT doing it and forcing it on EVERYONE. At that point, you change society in general because you wind up ‘helping’ - I call it ‘crippling’ - FAR more than actually need it.

By Tony

March 31, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

I agree with Jeff about the crippling affect of government help. Does any of this sound like Kurt Vonegut’s Harrison Bergeron to anyone?

By flipper

March 31, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Hate to say it, but a much better and less expensive alternative is to quit letting the knuckle dragging mouth breathers breed in the first place.

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

teach1 The reason we put our kids into pre-school was for a setting that allowed the kids to be away from Mommy, as they were becoming appendages, and didn’t do well away from her. Pre-school allowed them to interact with others, and learn to be apart from her. I didn’t expect them to actually learn anything in the 2/hours for 3 days/week setting.

HS Teacher Too Yes, I think it should go back to being a prep class. I agree with you that too much is being pushed downward. Being that this is the first year that most kids are in a school setting, they must first learn to function in that setting, before being expected to learn academics. The same can be said about other grades where concepts are being pushed downward.

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Does anyone remember the controversy when the state went from 1/2 day kindergarten to full day? Parents were complaining that 5 yr. olds were not ready for a full day school environment, as they were just adjusting to being in a school environment. And now teachers are complaining that they not coming in ready? Irony at it’s best…

As it is, only Georgia and 15 other states require kindergarten to be full day, most are still half day.

By Leigh

March 31, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Who’ll prepare the child for the Pre-Three Preparation for Pre-K Preparation for Kindergarten that is preparation for First Grade?

How about Intra-Uterine Education? Because it’s never too soon to get the government involved in your child’s education.

By BS

March 31, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

From Googling: “What should your child know before beginning kindergarten?”

These are the reading, writing and math pre-academic skills that children should know and be able to do before entering kindergarten:

Reading

Writing

Math

For safety, children should learn:

To support health/nutrition, children should:

To develop responsibility, children can:

Other activities:

By jim d

March 31, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Who should prepare kids for kindergarten?

Good question Laura.

Perhaps JM should be charged with this task since she has so much free time that taxpayers are already paying for.

By JustMe March 31, 2008 8:05 AM

By JustMe March 31, 2008 10:24 AM

By JustMe March 31, 2008 11:24 AM

By JustMe March 31, 2008 12:28 PM

By JustMe March 31, 2008 12:56 PM

Whatta think?

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

jim:

In JM’s defense, she could be on Spring Break. I know both T’s system and my younger bro’s system are, so it is quite possible that this week is Spring Break for many of the systems in this state.

(I also point to the re-emergence of Lisa B. Haven’t seen her in a while!)

By JustMe

March 31, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

jd - Again, your posts (such as the last one) continues to show your lack of maturity and lack of good judgement. You know nothing really about me, yet you jump to conclusions. LOL. That is “JustLike” you.

I am proud to stand on my record at work at any time. Take your judgement of me and shove it where the Sun doesn’t shine :-) Have a nice day.

By JustMe

March 31, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

jim d - And what do you do for a living? Whom do you work for? You post here much more than I. What is your level of education? Where did you go to college? What was your degree?

Over time, you have asked me all sorts of personal info. Share your personal information, if you dare!

If you cannot take the heat, honey, stay out of the kitchen!

By Tman

March 31, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

If we as a country do not teach these kids then the streets will. Yes I agree it is the parents duties, but as we know that is not happening in alot of homes. The kids are left to fend for themselves. Put them in a educational setting so they can get acclimated and ready to succeed rather than giving up and joining a gang. Which one would make our life and our children’s life better, educate these kids or let them turn to crime against those who refuse to help.

By Vicki

March 31, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

jim d – Thanks for giving your wife the credit for preparing your child for school. Come to think of it that’s what I do, too. I guess I live the “Leave It To Beaver” life. I worked for 20 years before I became a stay at home mom. It is my job to basically to run the home, take care of the day-to-day routines, make sure that homework is completed, chores are done and at the end of the day I want my boys to know they are loved. My husband responsibility is teaching life skills as is your role. We still have years of school ahead and I know we’re doing a great job. My mothering motto is “tend your own garden”.

Jeff – you most certainly will find it close to impossible to calm a 14 month-old throwing a tantrum. What worked for you yesterday probably won’t work today. But, I find it hard to understand why you would want to discipline your child with force or as you put it a way the ladies on the Momaina blog would not agree with you. That is because your way of “teaching” your child to behave is with fear. Fear is not what you should instill in your child. What you should be strive for is respect. You may be 25 years old, but a quarter of a century does not make a man. Experience wins, hands down over observing.

BTW - Spring break is next week.

By Thomas

March 31, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

Tman - Well, it seems that if you ask jimd (and some others) that question, they would rather pay additional taxes to put these children (soon-to-be criminals if not properly trained) in jail. Personally, I would rather spend less tax money training these toddlers and preparing them for school instead of paying big tax money to house them in jail.

Vickie - Spring break is various times depending on the school system. For example, some have it this week, and some have it next week. Some colleges even had their spring break much earlier. Check out MTV. They have been airing spring break shows from the beach for a while, now.

By Teach1

March 31, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

I do not believe that teachers are demanding children come to them with a certain amount of knowledge but that the state is setting the standards. Teachers do not decide what they want to teach but are mandated to teach the standards developed by the state.

So Bobby talk to the Department of Education and help get more realistic expectations. Maybe if teachers and parents worked together we could get on the same page and no one would have to complain.

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

Vicki:

A) For thousands of years, a kid half my age was considered a man. In fact, (religious) legally, a male Jew who is 13 yo is considered a man even now. The modern concept of ‘adulthood’ is just that - modern. It sprang into existence roughly the same time this country did. Approx. 200 years ago. And the concept of ‘childhood’ as we understand it now is an even NEWER concept. Mostly springing up over the last century, primarily the last 50 years.

B) T is off this week. As is my younger bro. Therefore I know for a FACT that at least two systems are having spring break this week, which raises the possibility that JM’s system is as well.

By Bobby

March 31, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Yes, the state sets expectations of what the teachers are supposed to teach them, not what they are expected to already know. The solution is to actually teach them what is expected, otherwise you’re just babysitting.

By Erin

March 31, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

“If the schools are doing their jobs, the kid will have the critical thinking skills and saavy to find any information they need and analyze it.”

Jeff, you’re right, but isn’t that part of the problem? Schools are NOT doing this (I read this blog all the time, though I don’t always share my viewpoint) and unfortunately neither are some parents, who probably didn’t learn it from THEIR parents or just didn’t care.

By catlady

March 31, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

As long as we reward poor decisions, we are going to see a fair-sized group of people making poor decisions. If poor decisions are not rewarded (or maybe—gasp—penalized) MANY of the pi** poor decisions would not be made, because there is a negative consequence. So far, it seems, our lawmakers have not understood this.

DFACS should be a lot quicker to step in for poor parenting and remove the child (with the child sometimes goes the welfare check, food stamps, tax refund, etc). We have not been assertive enough, believing that “how they raise their children is their business”, kind of like the attitude that “I will do with my property whatever I want, and the heck with the surrounding property owners.” Until we get rid of that mind-set (and perhaps go back to sterilization of those who have shown they aren’t up to the demands of parenting) we will countinue to sink.

Poor parenting is NOT only found in the lower class, but perhaps the middle class can “hide” their poor parenting more easily until the child gets older (and in big trouble).

I would say that at least 20% of the students at our school should be under DFACS protection, or, at the least, mandatory parental counseling and classes.

By catlady

March 31, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

How about Intra-Uterine Education? Because it’s never too soon to get the government involved in your child’s education.

Leigh, remember our governor and the classical music CDs sent to new parents???

By Vicki

March 31, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

Fulton, DeKalb, Gwinnett, and Rockdale County schools all have spring break the week of 4/7 - 4/11. I’m sure there are some other counties who also have their break then, too. The reference was made regarding a poster who has claimed to work in one of these counties.

Jeff - I knew you would go with that angle. I also thought you would ignore the points on parenting, which you did.

By holdingAJCaccountable

March 31, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

“How about Intra-Uterine Education?”

LOL! Don’t give them any ideas. They’ll probably mandate teachers get gynecological training in order to start inserting bubble in sheets into the womb so the fetus can start CRCT test prep!

If he/she doesn’t pass the CRCT by the second trimester, will they get a voucher to attend a different womb?

By Jeff

March 31, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this

Vicki:

To truly understand the human condition, one cannot only look at recent history. And that goes for ANYONE, including the people I mentioned earlier.

Truly, the human condition is not affected by the level of technology. We like to think that with our advanced technology, we are - depending on one’s point of view - better or worse off than the Ancients. And in some ways, we are both. But the overall human condition - that thing that separates us from the animals - is truly no different now than in the time of the Pharoahs. The things that we experience on a daily basis are the same things experienced by all mankind since Adam.

One of the reasons thousands of years old books are still relevant and applicable today. (And I speak not just of the Bible, but also of the Talmud, the Koran, the Bagavad Gita (might have gotten that name wrong - the holy book of Hinduism), even The Art of War by Sun Tzu and The Prince by Machiavelli. Heck, even Shakespeare!

And I maintain that of THAT, I have a better understanding than many three times my age.

You speak as a parent who pays attention to the latest fads.

I speak as a man who takes a much longer view of things and doesn’t let the recent news phase me.

By Lee

March 31, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Q: Who should prepare kids for kindergarten?

A: It doesn’t matter.

Why is that, you say?

Because a parent can have his kid reading “War and Peace” and reciting the Periodic Tables by age 4, and public schools will still put him in a classroom with the borderline retard, illegal alien who can’t speak a lick of English, and assorted other meth-head babies and malcontents - and then teach them all according to the lowest common denominator.

When I started school, kids began school in the FIRST grade. That’s the way they did it for years and years. There is a reason they called it the FIRST grade. Back when common sense prevailed in public education, they realized there was a natural order to things. Kids were mature enough to start school in the FIRST grade around age six.

Today, kids start school two full years before I did, are about one year ahead of where I was in middle school, and by the time they graduate, they can’t make change for a dollar.

Talk about the law of diminishing returns….

By kaab

March 31, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Everyone adult should know their shapes, colors and the alphabet and phonics. That is enough information to teach a preschooler. As a mother of a preschooler, I make sure that I talk to my child. When we play, I try to use very discriptive language. If parents would just take a little time with their children, they can be prepared for kindergarten.

By Vicki

March 31, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

You seem to be misunderstanding my point.

You speak of parenting and you are not a parent. You do not know what you will do until you are a parent. Human conditioning is your cup of tea right now. I understand, I don’t agree, but I understand. To instill fear is very familiar to me since that is the way I grew up. One might look at human conditioning or the fear factor as a good means to the end, and then again, it is a way to the end…ending the spirit of the person being conditioned. As you know, wild horses are broken that way.

I am not a parent of the latest fad. I am a parent trying to do the best job of raising two function members of society; for them to be socially acceptable and strive for excellence in any and everything they try to accomplish. I feel that is my job. It might not be the way you would accomplish this, but human conditioning/fear factor will not repeat itself in my family.

By Vicki

March 31, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this

I forgot to address my past post to Jeff….

Also, my intentions are to raise two functioning members of society….

By Lisa B.

March 31, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Catlady, I agree with your 5:21 post. We definitely reward irresponsible behavior. Dare I mention again that perhaps orphanages should be revived? It seems harsh to separate children from parents just because parents can’t support them. However, it may take something drastic to change the current course we’re on. We have generational poverty fed by welfare. Somehow we have to break the cycle. No Child Left Behind can make all the mandates it wants, but that is not the answer.

Kaab said at 8:10 that most parents have the skills to prepare children for school. Of course they do, if they will just take the time!

By Larry

April 1, 2008 4:13 AM | Link to this

I’m not much a pre-K fan because of where it will lead.

Recently, I discovered my rather singular position on the subject was entertaining enough to appear on a well known (in some circles) web site.

http://www.susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=53

Keep in mind, this was written during the Gateway controversy.

By Leigh

April 1, 2008 7:41 AM | Link to this

Yep catlady - my lilones are still hummin some of them thar tunes. Thanks gov.

By one who gets it

April 1, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

The lottery funded pre-K program has been in place for over 10 years and GA schools rate lower than ever. It’s little more than free babysitting for parents who don’t want to do the job they signed on for when they became parents i.e. raise their children.

By Thomas

April 1, 2008 7:56 AM | Link to this

This discussion seems to encompass multiple issues, thus making a real conversation almost impossible. We (the blog master) should separate these issues so that we may discuss them intelligently….

A) Does our society have a need to educate its citizens? Does this benefit our society on the whole? If the answer is ‘yes’, then how does out society go about ensuring “proper” education of its citizens? What is “proper” education?

B) What should be done about people that have children that do not parent? Is it our society’s responsibility to take children away from people that don’t properly parent? Who defines “proper parenting?” When does lack of parenting hurt the child, and is it the childs fault (should the child suffer)? If it is decided that it is society’s responsibility to ensure good parenting, is the public school the proper agency to replace the parents?

C) What is the basic role of schools? Is it to parent? Is it to teach subject matter content? Is it to entertain and baby sit? Is it all of these and more? What happens when you put so many responsibilities on a single agency that it is doomed to fail?

D) Should there no longer be a tax payer funded public school and lay that burden entirely on the shoulders of those with children? Should private institutions take up the responsibility of education (such as Churches, Bill Gates, etc.) and there be no more public school? What happens if there is no more public school and families cannot afford to educate their children - are they then defined as “bad parents” (see issue B)?

Until issues A), B), C), and D) can be answered, it is almost impossible to continue with this type of blog topic! Those that post on this blog cannot even agree on A), B), C), and D) - so the little topics currently posted every other day or so are meaningless!

By PTCMomma

April 3, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

The parents should prepare the little ones. They should not be in school all day before Kindergarten. Personally, unless their parents are inept, they shouldn’t be in more than a part time preschool before the age of 5. They need to be with their family during this crucial period of development.

By trac

April 7, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this

This comment is so misleading. At first I’m glad that you are bringing to attention the concept of universal Pre-K and then you have to go and ruin it with “poor parenting”, rendering you so ignorant. I don’t think this is an issue of poor parenting as much as working parenting and the high cost of childcare. I think the poor parenting remark should be left more to the state of Georgia and the residents who don’t see the long term benefits of early education. Have you looked at the economy, lack of jobs, and high childcare costs as factors for helping children? People work their butts off to get no further with the bills and are still able to love and take care of their children. They just can’t afford high chilcare fees. This makes you a bad parent? Jump into this century. You’re so privileged to have stayed home with your child. What a shame you don’t realize it. You make me sick.

By trac

April 7, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

Re-read your comments people and wake up! You are the biggest group of judgemental egotistical ignorant people. Do you secretly belong to the KKK? I have you all pegged. Your kids weren’t potty-trained until 4 because you waited for THEM to be ready and all of you mothers went to college to land a husband who pays the bills but cheats on you because your snobby judgemental bores. Oh, and let me guess, you work out every day! And each Sunday you’re at church!!! Right? Wonder why the world is going to hell? Take a look in your mirrors and you will see unhappiness staring back at you. Stop judging and start helping. Believe me, it improves the quality of life VASTLY! You and your children are no better than anyone else but if it makes you feel better to think so……I can’t wait to leave this pre-historic state of Georgia. And you call yourselves Christians. Shame on you! I guarantee your children will grow up hating you for controlling their every move. And judging them, too.

By Momma

April 28, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Is Kindergarten a requirement in Minnesota? Can you just enter 1st grade when you are a year older? Or do you need kindergarten to graduate from High School?