Get Schooled

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

999 times out of 1000, by the time a parent learns of a fight/shooting/other such incident at school, the situation is already over and dealt with. (At least as far as punishment of the responsible parties, first aid for any injured, etc)

Therefore, why does the PUBLIC need to know about these things? And note that here, I include all parents of children at the school whose child was not directly affected. IOW, if a child is hit at school, THAT parent should be notified. If a child sees ANOTHER child get hit, the parent of the child who simply saw the altercation go down does NOT need to be notified.

Same thing goes for even Columbine-level attacks. All you are doing by notifying the media/public at large is creating mass hysteria. Better to deal with the situation in-house and call the cops if needed than to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, and make the situation 10,000X worse.

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Part of the job with which we entrust principals is to make judgment calls — countless calls in any given day — as to what is serious enough to warrant telling parents. Telling parents every little thing that happens at the school would cause unnecessary alarm, and I can only begin to imagine the limitations and frustrations when parents get only superficial information, draw their own conclusions (for better or for worse) and the principal and his/her staff are then left to deal with the fallout.

To my eyes, the problem isn’t that principals should restrict what they tell parents; it is a given that principals need to, and it’s part and parcel of their job. The problem is the parents’ (often well-founded) fear that the principals who make these judgment calls err on the side of protecting the school system (we’ve blogged about the propensity of school officials to hide things for fear of NCLB consequences), as opposed to giving parents full information that they may reasonably deem necessary to make judgments about their own children. Unfortunately, the only time we’re ever really able to say we disagree with the principal’s judgment is when it has, of course, gone in some way against what we would have preferred. So the question becomes, to what extent do we want to trust them at all? And if we can’t trust them, then we take our kids out of the schools. There are plenty of people who have chosen this option.

Keep in mind that by the time something gets to the principal, it has already crossed some minimal threshold of seriousness. The classroom teacher “filters” many problems to begin with, and again, rightfully so. So I would guess that the principal must encounter more significant problems, and more of them, and in turn his/her “filter” must pick only the most severe of the problems to in turn inform the parents. I can’t find any fault with that. It goes back to how much we are willing to trust that the particular principal’s judgment is likely to mirror our own.

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I agree with your idea that too much information leads to panic, mostly because “too much” information is still usually not all the history, background, etc. to give the full picture.

But, I have to disagree with you in terms not telling parents at all about what happens, with the logic that it’s been taken care of. I think it is reassuring to parents to know, as you say, that the situation is over and dealt with; but let’s say that I am the parent of the child who saw the other child get hit, as in your example. Depending on what happened, that may actually have an effect on my child. I have a right to know that. What’s more, I may want to know about these situations — their seriousness, their frequency — to be able to make a judgment call as to whether I want my child in that school after all. (I know that this information leads directly to the panic you mentioned earlier. For example, what’s a reasonable annual number of fights at a high school, and how do we classify fights as serious or not? I’m with you on this.)

But I still think total censorship isn’t the way to go. Here’s an example that is personal to me: In 7th grade, I witnessed a school fight where a boy beat another boy over the head with a school desk. Superhuman strength from adrenaline, but it happened. I was a tiny, girly seventh-grader and I had nightmares about this, convinced that the victim might die. I was also scared that something like that might happen again. I told my parents about the fight; but they also had a reasonable, I think, independent expectation that the school inform them — at least on some level — as to what had happened so they could address it with me.

By JustMe

March 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

I agree. The media gets involved and then every little detail about schools is exaggerated and blow out of proportion. This leads to unnecessary hysteria.

I feel that the media must exercise some filter to report on the major things or only on the things that impact the community at large. Otherwise, let the parents, the police, and the administration handle it.

A cheerleader faints at a game. The truth may be that she fainted due to exhaustion cause she was dieting for the prom. Next thing you know, the news says she was poisoned, or has some disease, or some nonsense like that. But, when the truth comes out, the news never corrects itself.

Can you imagine if every little detail about a company (say, Coca-Cola) was splashed all over the news on a daily basis?

By Ernest

March 24, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

IMO, this is a ‘no win’ situation for the school system as a whole. Whether due diligence is done to provide information or filter out on a ‘need to know’ basis, people will complain. I think back a situation no long ago at the HS my children attend. An ‘unknown’ odor was in the school (turned out to be a machine part that had just gone bad) and before you know it, the media was at the school reporting on it. Parents were initially upset to see the school on TV without warning or notification until they found out what the cause of the problem was. Seems one of the little darlings called the media to report this hence the story. Think about the time spend on ‘damage control’ rather than instruction.

I agree with the points raised by Jeff and HST Too. It will come down to how much we are willing to trust the judgment of the principal/school system. Too much information (TMI) seems to be the safe policy until someone complains again.

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

HST2:

I guess the difference with me is simple: If I don’t trust you, I don’t do business with you. That goes for every area of my life.

With my kids, it will be even more so. I will homeschool my kids before I ever even THINK of letting them be in a school where I don’t trust the administration.

Now, I also live in a (relatively) small area, and getting to know the people in those levels of positions isn’t that hard. Matter of fact, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that I go to church with many of them.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I have to agree with Too on this one.

Parents have a right to know when their children maybe in harms way. I will say that while schools remain one of the safest places a child can be, that sometimes they can become a place of concern.

You can’t have it both ways my friend. You’ve often made comments about uninvolved parents—In order for parents to truly be involved they most know what is going on within the halls of the schools. Not everything mind you, but there are things that they should be informed of. I think in that light it should be left up to the descretion of the Principal.

Personally, At this point, I believe it was all handled properly in Gwinnett last week. I think the question we must ask though is would it have been handled the same way if it were not for a rogue student with a cell phone? Personally knowing one of the men that made that choice, I’d say yes it would have.

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Right; but part of my point is that we don’t often know that we can’t trust someone until it becomes apparent that our judgments don’t align.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Aw C’mon JM,

You can’t seriously be comparing a school syatem with a corporation like coke! My tax dollars don’t support Coke and the government doesn’t dictate that I send my child to work for them (well not yet anyway)

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

jim d,

This is off-topic, but tangential to what you wrote. You raise an interesting point about the Gwinnett situations. Do you think that there would have been as much attention to the fight — even the principal’s video message — had there NOT been media involvement? In other words, if it had been “just” a fight (although a big one), would Markham have gone online with a video, etc.? I think the discipline would likely have been the same, absolutely. But I wonder if the flurry of showing us how they were taking care of it all was puffed up in any way to accomodate the “media frenzy,” as it were?

By GC Parent

March 24, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

I do not want school leaders to decide for me what information I need to know and what information I do not about my students school.

This can be easily solved by putting actual disciplinary and safety data on line so parents have access. One has to ask themselves why this is not being done at the local level on a quarterly or semester basis.

A simple county policy that requires school leaders to provide information in the form of a letter home and on the web for any incidents which involve a rule violation for “disruption of a school” and in Gwinnett County’s case, those rules which are considered criminal disciplinary offenses, or page 32 of the parent handbook.

Empower the parents to make their own judgment calls, then we don’t need another full time county employee determining what is and isn’t important.

By WFC

March 24, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

My son is an honor student at Northview High School. To put it bluntly, I trust HIS judgement. He’s been told that if he feels in danger, he is to leave school, go to a nearby business, and call me. I’ll go pick him up. I’ll also support him if he gets in trouble with the school administration. Self-reliance.

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

HST2:

You may think that by me being so open here on the boards I am somehow a very trusting person.

I am not.

Openness and trust are two VERY distinct things in my book.

I don’t trust a person with anything of value until I know them VERY well, OR they have proven that they are worthy of it. I may trust some random guy at the Walmart auto service center with my car for an oil change, but even major repairs to my car I take to Cartersville to the place my family has used for the vast majority of my life.

How much more so do you think I’ll be with my kids????? I’ve oft said already that I know that between the two of us (mostly me), I KNOW T and I can give our kids a FAR better education than they’ll EVER get in a public school. My earlier statement about homeschooling them if I don’t trust the administration at the school is NOT simply an idle threat.

That said, when I DO trust you at that level, I’m very much as I described earlier: You deal with it, I don’t even need to know it happened. If my child was the victim and needs hospitalization, you’d better call me. If my child was the perpetrator, you’d better call me (because he’s going to get FAR worse at home than you could THINK of doing to him). Otherwise, I don’t need to know.

Jim:

Your child is on Earth, he is in harm’s way. You don’t need to know the exact specifics. As has been said, you’ll never be interested in the FULL story, so why incite panic?

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

GCParent:

Quite frankly, parents are NOT to be trusted with said data. A) They don’t know how to interpret it and B) They’ll only resort to hysterics.

Again: If your child was hurt and needs hospitalization, you should hear from the school. If your child was the perpetrator (of any level), you should hear from the school. Outside of that, you should NOT hear from the school.

By Teacher, Too

March 24, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

I have been mulling this topic over. Fights happen- I am usually not even aware of the fights that happen in our school unless I see someone taken out in handcuffs. The kids usually have to say something to me.

If no weapons are involved, or if the fight is not gang-related, then maybe parents don’t need to be notified.

But, if a weapon is involved or if there are gang ties, then yes, absolutely parents need to know.

Furthermore, if the fight is gang activity, then I would definitely try to have some gang identification parent meeting to provide even more info to parents.

Y’all, gangs are everywhere, even in the “nice” middle and high schools. Talk to the gang task force officers— it’s rather scary.

By GC Parent

March 24, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

That is exactly what is wrong about our school system. If parents are not to be trusted, how do you ever expect them to engage and make a difference for schools ?

It is this low expectation for parents and students alike that is driving both out of the public school system.

By JustMe

March 24, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

jd - Yes, I was comparing a school system to a corporation. Both should be run with the same professionalism, good management, prudence, and so on. Silly rumors that are exagerated in the media can destroy the reputation of both/either.

As I said in my original post, the ones that should know regarding a school are the parents, the police (or the doctors, etc.), the students involved, and the administration. The media doesn’t need to report on every little detail - especially when they report incorrectly so very often.

By midschtchr

March 24, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

How much do you want to know?

I guess that depends on the information. At the school I teach at we go above and beyond at notifying parent(s) about PTO meetings and other such school related activities. I work at a title 1 school so guess what the response/turn-out rate is? Kind of reminds me of a famous quote: the truth, you can’t handle the truth!

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

GCParent:

When I can trust a parent to actually DISCIPLINE THEIR OWN KID, THEN I will consider letting them have access to the data on what happens at school.

Right now, I’d say that at LEAST 80% of the time when a teacher/administrator calls home about a discipline problem at the school, the parent responds by either taking the kid’s story over the school’s or telling the school that “He’s just too out of control. I can’t handle him. You deal with it.”

Ever notice that these fights/school violence were nowhere NEAR as prevalent when PARENTS ACTUALLY DISCPLINED THEIR KIDS???

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

GC, I think what Jeff is trying to say — and forgive me, Jeff, if I am wrong — is that parents won’t be able to (really, it’s impossible) to get the full story, and in turn they may mis-judge what really happened (or its significance). And by “full story,” I mean the background of who the kid is, who s/he fought with, the kids’ history with each other, whether the kid(s) just got dumped by his/her significant other, or got back a bad grade, or their mom’s in the hospital, or any of the other infinitely many twists and permutations that can make the fight meaningful or just a manifestation of teenagers’ trials and tribulations. And let’s face it, a lot of that type of information the schools can’t release even if they wanted to. (“Junior was p** because his English teacher, who we all know is hard on detentions, just wrote him a detention we don’t think is entirely fair, but it is to the letter of the law” or “junior’s mom has cancer and he’s having a rough time” … that kind of thing.) So — if I may speak for Jeff here — he’s afraid that giving only part of the picture may actually make it worse, in the sense that parents will worry about stuff that, given the “full picture,” really isn’t worth worrying over. This goes to Teacher Too’s example about school fights: there are some that are, for lack of a better way to put it, “just fights,” and there’s probably no need to tell the parents every time there is a fight.

On the other hand, I think it is pretty relevant if there is “just a fight” every single day!

Personally, I agree with Jeff on some level, but I also think that a combination of your disclosure idea along with Teacher, Too’s will solve the problem. Tell us when there are weapons involved; but otherwise just publish the data. (And not daily, but say, every other month, or at the end of each 9 weeks, etc. We need a reasonable time period to make it meaningful. Daily updates are not practical.) All of those “no big deal” fights will work themselves out in the data, because, at least theoretically, every school will have a similar rate of occurrence for those “just kids being kids” events.

Jeff, I hope I got that right. At least from my perspective, it’s not the schools not trusting the parents, per se; it’s a matter of not trusting the mob mentality. Publishing data on a regular basis and at the same time, writing home about important events between the reports, seems to be a good solution to mitigate the mob phenomenon.

By Tony

March 24, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

The bottom line about communication is that it does not matter how much you put out there, someone will not be satisfied. I have plenty of stories I could tell, but a blog is not the place!

jim d - if you think your tax dollars do not support big businesses like Coke, you need to check further. Corporations benefit hugely from farm subsidies (high fructose corn syrup), energy policies, tax law, …. If our nation actually practiced what it preached about free market, we would have some very upset dairy farmers, agribusinesses, and oil companies.

By Old School

March 24, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

Our school has what I think is a very good plan of action for emergency/dangerous situations. The safety of the students, faculty and staff comes first and a systematic approach to releasing information is in place. Even parents have a specific off-campus location at which they can assemble, get information, and await the release of their students.

The problem lies with students calling home on their cell phones and parents showing up on campus to retrieve their kids. If the campus is multi-buildings and spread over a large area, any kind of security and safety is compromised and authorities are hampered in their efforts. Doubtless, students could be in jeopardy as well, trying to get to their parents.

Having said all that, I do think the school needs to keep parents informed with as much information as necessary to maintain a high level of safety for all. I also believe they would be as forthcoming as possible. Just remember that there are those folks (kids and adults) who seem to have a need to be the first to get the word out when any sort of situation arises and that word might not be completely accurate or have much substance other than speculation.

By V for Vendetta

March 24, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

Late to the party on this one, but it’s a topic I’ve been thinking about the past few days …

Normally I would lean a little more in Jeff’s direction. I would contend that if the majority of the parents in a district or demographic group seem unable to discipline their own children, then who cares if they are notified of infractions and what not? As Jeff said, the school has already handled it 99% of the time. But here’s the rub …

I often talk about how I teach at one of the “good” schools in metro Atlanta, and this issue hits close to home in this case. My school has had similar problems as of late. In fact, I’d wager to say that my school has had problems that meet or exceed the daily happenings at Peachtree Ridge, Mill Creek, and, well, maybe not Central Gwinnett, but you get my drift.

What I’m saying is that my school has not made the news. It has remained a steadfast silent culprit, one that deals with its problems swiftly and silently. Not because it’s the right thing to do, but rather because it fears getting outsted or exposed for what is really going on here. People would be shocked. Parents would be outraged and saddened.

Because of this, I come down (slightly) on the other side of the argument. If it was my child at this school, I would ABSOLUTELY want to know what was going on.

Because I’m sad for all the parents here who don’t.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

Too,

to answer your question.

Markham has gone on the school website on several occassions over the past 4 years the school has been in existance to inform parents of issues few had heard about. would he have done the same this time. I’m confident he would have regardless of if a video had existed or not. He is a strong proponent of communications, Both with parents aand the community which he serves.

The gentleman has EARNED my respect by his past actions.

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

HST2:

My thing isn’t just the mob mentality - although that certainly plays in - but parents in general.

Part of being a good parent is worrying about your kid. No doubt about that.

But in these modern days we live in, parents seem to be OBSESSIVELY worrying about their kids. And that aint good for NOBODY. The parent’s already high stress levels from traffic/work/marraige/friends/bills/etc - not counting kids - is already bad enough. Why NOT place the kids in a reasonably secure environment, trust the adults of that environment to be adults, trust the kid to deal effectively - or talk to you afterwards - with the normal ups and downs, and at least have SOME of the burden off your shoulders for 8-12 hours a day??? The kid learns a valuable lesson in self-reliance, you can concentrate on work, and the adults in charge can focus on doing THEIR jobs than worrying about what you think of their jobs?

Instead, parents get overly obsessive and neurotic and continue to contribute to all the BAD things we are seeing. Go figure.

By GC Parent

March 24, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

This is the most I have ever responded to a blog. HS Teacher Too, I agree with all you said.

There is a distinct difference between “need to know level” regarding the details on an individual case when your child is involved (as either a perpetrator, or a victim), versus the trend type of information parents would get on a semester/quarterly basis, versus those rule violations which require mass communication.

No case details are needed in the trend data, other than a summary of the data by rule violation and an open discussion with decision makers and behavior specialists on effective interventions being put in place and the effects of those interventions.

The “special case” situation when a school should notify parents in mass, is and can be exclusive to serious criminal behavior - the kinds of violations already outlined in defining a “persistently dangerous schools” and the one additional rule violation of “disruption of a school”. All of these violations are associated with pretty serious criminal charges, both on an individual level and a school level, as outlined in NCLB/UNSCO. It makes no sense to notify parents, after the fact, at the end of the school year that their school is a persistently dangerous school, or that they just missed that label by 1-2%, which most parents will never know if the data is not shared at the local level.

Each of these three scenario’s (individual case when your child is involved, local trend reporting, and “special case required for mass communication”) is different, and should be treated differently.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Tony,

You may be right. However, I still draw a sunstantial differentiation between the corp. world and the public (read gov.world)

When one serves on a Corp. board they owe stock holders much the same can be said of elected officials owing their constituency.(their shareholders)

As for the media? Don’t even get me started on that slanted, edited, sensationalized view to sell the news.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I can’t wait till you actually have kids of your own. I really should be saving some of these blog comments to share back with you in a few years to see how much your position changes. I assure you it would be good for a laugh or two.

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

GCParent:

‘Disruption of public school’ can mean whatever administration wants it to mean.

Take it from someone who was once charged with it.

They wanted me gone, but I had broken no laws. So they charged me with that for simply speaking up in class about a contentios topic.

‘Disruption of public school’ can mean anything from the kinds of stuff I did - opposing the majority’s view on a topic - to harmless pranks such as hacking the lawn sprinkler system and turning it on when everyone is out having a school picnic to the more violent things you are thinking it means.

It is more broad than even the sexual harassment laws, and THAT is saying something, as they are some of the most broad laws the world has ever known!

By Jeff

March 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

Interesting thing just happened here at the office that bears mentioning, given the topic of the day:

There was a drive-by shooting in the neighborhood surrounding the office. I wasn’t anywhere near it - I was inside, and any bullet that can penetrate from the street to me would HAVE to be .50 cal or higher - and didn’t find out about it until our office manager (not in my chain of command) came upstairs and told us about it.

Did I need to know this? Nope.

Even more interesting, as applied to this board, is that the shooting was in the vicinity of an elementary school down at the other end of our road.

Do the parents of the kids at that school need to know about it? I would say not, as the information I have says that no one at the school was hurt nor targeted.

WILL they find out about it? Well, at least the school/system/local news isn’t reporting it yet.

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

GC Parent, couldn’t agree more!

Where I worry is when the schools make determinations that certain things are not worth reporting when they really ought to be. I don’t know the exact mechanisms, but I know that this was a hot topic a while back with Gwinnett’s reporting policies. I believe that schools ought to have discretion in determining whether they want to press charges, but I think that just because the school doesn’t go that route shouldn’t mean that the event in question isn’t reported appropriately. As I said, I don’t know the exact mechanism of their rules (and I don’t remember the intricacies of the “pseudo-scandal”) but I believe this discretion came into play.

By SET

March 24, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Public Schools don’t exist for the students or their parents. They exist for the pleasure of the government and it’s officers. They will tell the parents what they want them to know, when they want them to know it.

You see, schools are no longer in business to serve the families enrolled. They serve the state. The families are supplicants.

It’s kind of a tail and dog thing.

The real question is when the local school campus administration tells the supertendent or the school board that there has been an incident. It would be interesting to hear what if anything is known about rules about notification upwards in the schools.

By JustMe

March 24, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

SET -

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

By jim d

March 24, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Yo SET,

Guess who’s asleep at the wheel? (LOL)

By HS Teacher Too

March 24, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

jim d, I’m a little late on reading your response to my question, but thanks. The fact that Markham has been consistent and his latest video conference isn’t in response to the media frenzy does, indeed, speak volumes.

By jim d

March 24, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

Too,

You’re welcome.

I believe that while things of this nature may not need the state wide coverage they recieve, that parents do have a right to know about their local school. But then I am a firm proponent of open government.

Apparently some principals agree while others do not.

By SAM

March 24, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

The topics provided for this blog are becoming increasingly dull!!!! Get back to the days of Patti Ghezzi when topics were at least more engaging.

By luvs2teach

March 24, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

This is one I’ve had experience with as a parent and as a teacher.

When my son was in 8th grade, there was a much publicized incident at his school (telling the incident would tell the school, so I’ll leave you all guessing). He was in a stage where he liked to tell me tall tales about his day - he would see how far he could get before I’d realize he was pulling my leg. When he told me this story, I thought he was joking! I didn’t believe him until he showed me the form letter from his principal. It didn’t effect him, and wasn’t that big a deal to me, so I don’t think I would’ve been upset if I never heard about it. The difference between what actually happened and the rumor mill were pretty interesting - I transferred to the school the following year, and had the group of kids involved. The story had been significantly elaborated upon by that point.

As a teacher we have had a few things happen where we sent home letters ( a couple fights, gun rumor - and it was only a rumor - INS coming to the school rumor - another rumor) - I gotta tell ya, most of the letters end up on the floor, and I’ve never had a parent e-mail me complaining or questioning. I can’t say what the principal had fielded though.

By Tony

March 24, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

SET may have more of a point than most of us would like to admit. A national curriculum is not that far away. Compare Kurt Vonegut’s short story “Harrison Bergeron” to some of our present day educational policies. NCLB declares that all kids will be on or above grade level by 2013.

By Lee

March 24, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this

Wow. That’s all I can say.

When those in public education say they don’t trust the public and/or parents with full disclosure of information, that parents “don’t need to know, and that if they knew what goes on in public schools it would cause “mass hysteria”, then my friends, it’s time to pull the plug on public education.

What they are really telling you is to “trust us, we’re the ones sitting up here with these online Phd’s so we know more than you about raising your own kid.”

Yeah, right.

In this age of electronic communication, there is simply NO reason why a school cannot have a simple, direct, and effective communication plan that would reach the vast majority of parents. Mass emails and internet communication are just two of the almost instantaneous, low-cost methods.

We can’t trust public school administration to distinguish between a Tweety Bird keychain and a deadly weapon, but they want us to trust them with the proper dissemination of information.

A simple rule of thumb is that whenever a public servant says “trust me,” the little short hairs on the back of your neck should be sizzling with 10,000 volts of electricity.

By Lee

March 24, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this

I’m really surprised there weren’t anymore comments on here about the brawl at Mill Creek. A few observations:

• I can understand why the principal wanted to pull the video off Youtube. This fight started when no less than FOUR MALE TEACHERS were on site and one teacher especially looked totally incompetent (the bald guy in a burgandy shirt).

• Let me ask you this, if a white kid called a black kid n****, what do you think would happen? That’s correct. The white kid would probably get expelled, recommended for counseling, and probably charged with some trumped up “hate” crime. On this video, there are at least 25 occurences of black kids calling one another n****.

• Give credit where credit’s due. The guy in the vest, I’m assuming he is the school security officer, really got in there and broke things up.

• For the life of me, I cannot fathom my teachers of 30+ years ago letting this situation spiral out of control the way these teachers did.

• Gwinnett was 91% white in 1990 and about 52% white in 2006. Take a good look at who was involved in this brawl. Sorry folks, the honeymoon’s over. Expect more of the same.

Finally, that $15k I pay in private school tuition looks more and more like a bargain everyday.

By DB

March 25, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

Lee, I hear ya! Our private school sends out what I call the “we regret to inform you” letter a couple of times during the year (so far this year, we’ve only gotten one). It deals with an infraction (usually drinking, twice in five years it’s been drugs, one time about 3 years ago due to theft), where the parents are told what happened (no names, but it’s a small school, so everyone already knows!) how the investigation was conducted, and what penalties were handed down. Because the school has a strict no alcohol policy 365/24/7, kids have been suspended for incidents such as drinking during a New Year’s party, things that wouldn’t turn a hair at a public school. (If you don’t like the policy, take your private school money elsewhere and don’t go to the school.)

I don’t pretend to think that these are the ONLY incidents that are dealt with, but they are usually incidents that the administration can use as an object lesson in parental education as to the circumstances that lead to the infraction, and suggestions on how to avoid similar incidents in the future.

So, in other words, I feel informed up to the degree that I need to be.

By Lee

March 25, 2008 5:07 AM | Link to this

DB, same here. In addition, there’s that clause in the contract that I sign every year that states if my child gets expelled from her private school, we don’t get a refund.

Accountability. What a concept…

By jim d

March 25, 2008 5:22 AM | Link to this

WOW Lee,

Actually, the kid that origionally posted the video had second thoughts and was in fear of some type of retaliation. From what I understand, that is why he pulled the plug.

Lee have you not heard the rap these kids are listening to? every other word is either n**** or ho.

Care to discuss why teachers weren’t able to get in to break it up? What is not shown on the video is the efforts made on the fringes of the alterfication to keep teachers and administrators out.

By DB

March 25, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

I just watched the Mill Creek video on YouTube — THAT was the “fight” everyone is talking about? Oh, good grief — talk about being blown out of proportion! Guys with potty mouths getting into each other’s faces with a scuffle, with a few idiot girls who can do nothing else except scream their heads off.

Actually, the really funny one was the “abridged” version with the voice over!

http://tinyurl.com/26v8u2

By V for Vendetta

March 25, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

Lee and JimD,

I pretty much agree with you two, but with a few minor quibbles …

First off, DB is right. That fight is nothing more than some posturing and potty mouths. I see worse than that almost daily here at my “good” school. Secondly, I’m not defending the actions of the male teachers that were present in the video, but I know that male teachers at my school are warned time and (time and time and time and time) again NOT to use unneeded physical force when breaking up a fight for fear of lawsuit. Now you try explaining what too much physical force is when dealing with an out of control high school student!

Exactly.

The lawsuits can not only hit the county and the school, but also the individual. The lawyer fees to DEFEND yourself from one could nearly bankrupt most teachers. That having been said, I think I agree with most of what Lee was saying …

You don’t have these types of problems at most private schools. And there was a time we didn’t have them in Gwinnett County, either. Look at the kids in the video. This is what we’re dealing with all over Atlanta, folks.

By WFC

March 25, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

RECENT INCIDENT: My son and I were driving home after school recently on Bell Road when a ceramic mug was thrown at us from a River Trail middle school bus doing $640 worth of damage and scaring the h*ll out of us.

I reported the incident to the school administration and they were wonderful, quickly identifying the guilty party beyond a shadow of doubt, promising consequences and giving me contact info.

Then I talked to the kid’s mom. I tried to hhandle this low key: let the school dish out the punishment and we deal with the damages ourselves. RESULT? Total BS comments like “why didn’t you repoort this to the police immediately? Blah, blah, blah. I’ll let you guess the the ethnic background of the punk who threw the mug. By the way, he’s now suspended from school for a totally differnt offense… suprise, surprise.

My only consolation at this point? Five years from now, my son will be graduating from Duke while hers will be in prison.

By JustMe

March 25, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

V -

Do you know why ‘these types of problems’ are not in private schools?

Is it because the private schools have better teachers? No.

Is it because the private schools have better administration? No.

Is it because the private schools have better rules? No.

Is it because the private schools have some magic dust they spinkle on the students? No.

It is entirely because private schools can screen out the trouble makers while public schools must take everyone. It is because private schools can kick out the trouble makers while public schools must service everyone.

THIS is why I laugh at people that think that vouchers are the solution. All vouchers will do is to change the rules such that private schools that accept vouchers will have to service everyone equally….. ya think that’ll work? LOL!!!!!

If this happens, whatever will Mommy and Daddy that want to run away from societies problems ever do? They won’t be able to find a safe haven for their child - like private schools are today!

By HS Teacher Too

March 25, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Pardont the pun, but I will jump in here as to why more teachers didn’t jump in. Bear in mind that these are hypothetical:

I wasn’t there, and I don’t know the layout of Mill Creek intimately well, but my guess is that items 1 and 2 are the most likely.

By JustMe

March 25, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

No where in my contract for employment does it say that I must put myself in harms way to break up a fight. That is the job of the security people, not teachers.

I will be happy to stand to the side and write names of kids down that I see involved. I will be happy to say, “No! Don’t! Stop” But, that is it.

If you want me to do more than that, I need hazard pay!

In addition, I want to be assured that the kids involved will be given appropriate conseqences for their actions (especially if they end up hitting/biting/whatever me)!!! If all the administration will do is give them a ‘good talking to’ then no way will I put myself in harms way!

Finally, if you - as a parent - don’t what your little darling hurt in a fight, then you need to tell them to not fight, and also if they think there is a fight to walk in the other direction! Too often, I see kids run towards a fight and then they get hurt - well, duh! Parents: parent your child!

By jim d

March 25, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

Oh I agree DB, it really wasn’t much of a fight. My concerns were more about what wasn’t caught on video and an understanding of the thug mentality that might have escalated this to a much more damaging degree.

Oh that we could return to the days of yesteryear when kids with a difference of opinion could go to the coach after school and put on the gloves. Some of my dearest friends in High school were met in this manner. It’s rather funny how well two can get along once male dominance has been established. I think it’s called something like the Alpha male syndrome.

By DB

March 25, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

JustME, you say that private schools have the option to make problem kids “go away”, and that’s true, to a certain extent. And yes, I DO feel my kids are safer, knowing that the school will deal with miscreants swiftly and mercilessly.

My question is: Why don’t PUBLIC schools have the same right? Education is a privilege, not a God-given right. Abuse the privilege, and you and yor parents SHOULD be in a position of having to to figure out how in the hell you’re going to get an education, since you scorned the free education provided by the government. I bet there are quite a few laissez-faire parents who, when faced with a kid that either needs to shape up or they are thrown out of the free educational system/babysitting service, would suddenly find the time to actually parent their kids and make sure they toe the line enough to at least stay in school. As it is, they pretty much know that, short of murder, the school HAS to take the kid. As a result, the school is robbed of being able to impose meaningful consquences.

If neither the parents NOR the children value the education, why shove it down their throat, and why make everyone else miserable while you do so? Hey, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

And if my money can buy me peace of mind, knowing that my kids are going to school in safety and in a highly disciplined environment, then yes, I GLADLY admit that I am “running away from society’s ills”. Watch me run! Please explain to me what moral superiority I would gain from throwing my kids into that sort of cr#p? They can deal with the “real world”, they do it all the time through church outreach programs, homeless shelters, Scout service projects, volunteering with Special Olympics, etc. But there is no moral superiority to rolling around in the mud just because everyone else is doing it.

By JustMe

March 25, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

DB

It is my understanding that the federal law requires all public schools to allow anyone to an education regardless up to the age of 21. Why is this? I’m not really sure. But what this means (I believe) is that the public schools are required to admit and attempt to education all of the gang members, drug dealers, and so on, that are there for reasons other than an education.

I don’t blame you or anyone for the paying extra money to send your child to private school for that ‘peace of mind’ that you mention. However, you might consider working towards changing the law(s) to help those that cannot afford private school. After all, it is your tax dollars, too!

By DB

March 25, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

State law mandates that kids between the ages of 7 and 16 must be in school (or up to 21 if they are special needs)

However, a student can be expelled for up to one school term (a year) if they break the rules. So, expel the critters! Do it often enough, and people start to think you’re serious.

I might consider working towards changing the laws — but I don’t think the laws are necessarily the problem. I think the very basic problem is with the expectations society has that a school is suddenly responsible for solving all of society’s ills in addition to EDUCATING kids. I do not pretend to think that I can, single-handedly, change two or three generations worth of entitlement mentality. The best I can do is teach my children self respect and the value of education and hard work.

By JustMe

March 25, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

DB - Thanks for the info. However, remember that there are many litigious parents that will sue if their little darling is expelled as you suggest. Are you willing to pay more taxes for the legal fees to fight those lawsuits?

Please understand that I am on your side. As a high school teacher, it is frustrating on a daily basis to try to maintain classroom management (a place where learning can occur) with those students in class that just don’t want to be there at all. When I ask them why they are there, you may be shocked to hear some of the answers I get…. Because I want the free lunch. Because I like to hang out with my friends. Because my mom makes me. Because I want to play football.

I wish that those so-called students would be expelled so that I can teach those students that really do want to learn and improve their future.

By DB

March 25, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

JustMe - You know, this kind of situation was made for binding arbitration! :-) How about requiring a parent to sign a release each year that agreed to binding arbitration in the event of expulsion of more than 10 days? If they don’t sign, their kid doesn’t get to enroll. Easy. I guarantee you, if I were the chair of a binding arbitration committee, it would take less than half an hour in most cases to settle these so-called “lawsuits” :-)

I understand “not wanting to be there”, and the frustrations you face. I am the only woman in four generations NOT to become a teacher, after seeing how much the demands on teachers have changed just within my mother’s time. She leapt at early retirement, after 35 years, for many of the reasons that you cite.

The other alternative to expulsion is being allowed to flunk out — but, of course, with NCLB, THAT’S not permitted, either, because there is no such thing as failure in our society (cough). I suspect if more kids had to deal with the results of “failure” at an earlier age, when there wasn’t so much on the line, they’d be a little tougher and a little more cognizant of what was needed to succeed.

By V for Vendetta

March 25, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

DB, I like your style!

Bravo!

By jim d

March 25, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

JM,

Many of those students would voluntarilly leave if we would just eliminate compulsory educataion to the age of 16-17 in most states. But then that brings up an entirely different blog topic doesn’t it?

By V for Vendetta

March 25, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

DB,

But that would (GASP!) require competition! You know, that thing that people seem to loathe now. What if elem. level students were allowed to play competitive sports!? What if they were allowed to choose teams and someone (gulp) was picked … last!

Oh the horror!

You’re right on the money about the binding arbitration. I’ve often suggested something similar for kids who use elec. devices during class time. Instead of taking it away, writing them up, and then GIVING IT BACK, why can’t we have a clause signed at the beginning of the year that all elec. devices confiscated by the school are property of the state. Then they can be donated to kids in hospitals. (But not to charity because I’ll be damned if some poor kid is going to have an iPod or a PSP when I can’t afford something like that on my dimes and quarters from the state!)

Let’s have a Euro-style educational system — free to all who want to be educated and screw those who don’t. While we’re at it, let’s eliminate wellfare, too. Suddenly that education that they’re shunning seems a lot more valuable, eh?

But that would be like picking teams on a grand scale which means that someone always gets picked last. Pity.

By SET

March 25, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

These blogs are not as much fun as they used to be. You guys are agreeing with each other again!

Somebody propose a hot blog topic!

By Terry

March 26, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

In my district, Forsyth County, we don’t even have police on middle school campuses. Why in the HELL should any teacher have to get in the middle of a fight- but here, there is no choice. Teachers have to do it. A couple of years ago we had a couple of kids bring a truck full of loaded guns and parked it next to the school entryway. What does the administrator do? Goes out by himself to investigate. DUH, OK, let me get myself killed so the kids can then go in the school and shoot em up. Us parents didn’t even get a note home. WE didn’t need press coverage, but we needed a note home with some reassurance that the problme was taken care of. We didn’t get that at all. They did not lock down the school, we don’t even know what happened. Its not about mass hysteria, we just need better communication here.

By Terry

March 26, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

These schools are supposed to report violence and campus crimes to the state. Wasn’t it Gwinnett County that recently got caught not reporting it. Us parents need the raw data, gun incidents, gang activity, weapons statistics in an easily found format on a school system website, so we can make an informed decision on whether to send our kids to public or private school. I don’t need case information or names, but I do want honest data, not ‘fudged data. Forsyth County constantly ‘fudges’ data.