Get Schooled

By Tater

March 13, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

Laura, The problem is allowing government to do anything right.

Students who misbehave to this level should NOT be in school. They need to be expelled and move on.

These are the kind of kids that will get into trouble no matter what you do. It’s all about personal responsibility, something lacking in today’s society.

jim d Nice comment yesterday!

By zoe

March 13, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

Did anyone else figure out the “per cost student?” 460 kids for $7 million- that is over $15,000 a kid! Average in the state of Georgia is $6000-$6500. I thought this company was supposed to save APS money? That was the claim being used in Clayton about this company before the bids were thrown out. This company was actually mentioned in the SACS report.

By JustMe

March 13, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

Yes, they can work.

However, I agree that most of these students shouldn’t be in any school. These are usually the students acting out in school for a variety of reasons - bad home life usually is top on the list.

However, as long as our society expects for schools to solve all problems and there is NCLB, school systems are forced to have a place - alternative schools - for these kids to go.

I have a relative that is an admin in an alternative school that I would call ‘successful.’ Why? Because the students quickly learn that their outrageous behavior isn’t tolerated at all. The student/teacher ratio is 9 to 1. Every class also has a teacher assistant. A student does one thing wrong and they get out of school suspension. There is a metal detector at the door to the school. Students are expected to learn and are rewarded for their successes. Often, students are able to go back to their home school once they understand what it means to be a student. Most often, the problems are with their home life and social workers get involved. And, they have a fairly good graduation rate, all things considered.

If Bush requires NCLB, what other choice is there? Is it ridiculously expensive - yes. Would you rather these kids be on the street robbing your home while you are at work? Or, would you rather these kids not get an education and remain on welfare for their life?

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

When I saw the article, I was hoping you’d pick it up.

You see, I am a graduate of one of these programs. Indeed, my time spent there is the difference between the man I now am and the man I would have been had I never been there. That man would be on death row by now - at the cost of probably at least a half dozen lives in the process.

Quite frankly, alternative schools are SUPPOSED to be FAR more strict in their discipline.

YES, that means highly invasive searches the second you walk in the door. Guess what? You sign a contract allowing it before you are accepted into the school.

YES, it means that the school is going to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to make sure you are non-violent at school, and if that means slamming you to the ground so that you don’t hit another kid, they are going to do it, and they are going to do it in a heartbeat. That contract you signed before you were accepted to the program also allows this!

Furthermore, if you have a record and you violate your probation, guess what? The school is going to call the cops and have you arrested in front of everyone at the school. Embarassing? Too bad. You broke the law TWICE to get to that point!

A fashion designer in Atlanta, a programmer in Macon, and a Marine that is somewhere in Iraq or maybe Afghanistan right now.

What do they all have in common? At least a year spent in an alternative school.

Don’t TELL me these schools don’t work or that they need to be changed.

I’m living proof that they DO work and DON’T need to be changed.

By V for Vendetta

March 13, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

The kids who go to that school would benefit the Earth more if they were liquidated and used as fertilizer. The school’s mere existence is testament to how backwards and idiotic our education and value systems currently are.

By Tater

March 13, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

zoe

A Perfect example of how more money dumped into education simply does not work.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Tater:

Shut your hole already.

Alternative schools in most systems are FAR worse funded than most black schools at the height of Jim Crowe.

This is one case in particular where you have ZERO room to talk if you’ve never been involved.

By catlady

March 13, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Students who “flunk out of” that school behavior-wise should go straight to jail. Don’t give them more of a chance to prey on others. Our lack of expectations is catching up fast with us.

Fact: at our alternative school kids get a long recess (on the elementary school play area—no elementary kids are allowed— for about a half hour (we are told they NEED it) yet the kids who DO behave well at hs and ms and even elementary school don’t get nearly that much time! And they take off their shirts within view of our kids! Talk about a travesty!

Glad you have such a good testimony, Jeff!

By Tater

March 13, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this

Jeff

Thank you for your insightful words. I’m glad things worked out for you, but I would venture a guess that you are the one who excelled, not the school.

But hey.. You’re right. Never have been there. Maybe you need to read catlady’s comment. You should be proud of yourself for excelling when the norm isn’t.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

catlady:

‘lack of expectations’???????

YEAH RIGHT!

Where do you think I got my current standard of taking the ‘socially accepted’ standard, multiplying it by a factor of 100, and making sure I NEVER fail the higher standard?

At the alternative school I was at, that was SOP. They took the standard at the school, made it as tight as they could legally get away with (and their status as a sort of ‘halfway house’ between jail and school grants them significant leeway here), and then held each and every student there to the higher standard.

If you broke the law, you were arrested on site.

If you failed a standard, punishment was often draconian and immediate.

Do kids come out of there unchanged? Quite frequently. Most of the time they wind up right back at the alternative school within a year or two, and many times they’ll spend a stint at jail as well.

But that isn’t because the staff doesn’t try.

Indeed, the people I’ve known at the alternative schools cared FAR more than ANYONE I’ve EVER met in a ‘mainstream’ school.

Know many mainstream teachers that would come to get a student that couldn’t otherwise get to school? It was SOP for the ones I knew.

Know many mainstream principals that would work with a kid - no matter how long it took - to calm them down when the kid came to them rather than knocking someone out? It was SOP for my principal.

Know many mainstream secretaries that would pay for a kid’s lunch when he couldn’t pay himself? Again, SOP for a couple of the ones we had.

It should tell you something about how much these people care and how hard they work that they go back to mainstream schools - with roughly 10X the students - after a few years as a ‘breather’ from being in the alternative schools. (And we know how hard it is to be a mainstream teacher!)

I could go on and on, but realize this: Almost everything I believe about education was formed in the crucible of an alternative school.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Shusterman had the right idea in his book “Unwind”, One that would totally eliminate the need of alternative schools. If you’ve not read it, by all means pick up a copy. :-)

By V for Vendetta

March 13, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I agree with what Tater said. You should be commended for overcoming a mountain of odds stacked against you, but the focal point of that sentence is that YOU should be commended.

I stand by my earlier comment: These types of schools are full of degenerates that aren’t worth the bullet it would take to end their miserable lives. These are the types of kids who murder unassuming college co-eds and then get to continue living for years afterwards while our asinine legal system wrestles over their fates and entertains their appeals. Pathetic.

If my tax money went to locking them up, I wouldn’t complain, but to educate them? Heck yeah I’m complaining.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Tater,

Thanks. ;-}

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

V:

My friend, you are DEAD wrong.

If I could be reached, ANY of them can be reached.

I COMPLETELY agree with separating them from the mainstream system. I didn’t fit in with the mainstream system, and it was only at the alternative school that I truly found a school ‘home’. Even though that home was filled with virtually no one like me, and virtually everyone else there was there for some combination of drugs and/ or violence. Most of the kids there were low SES, and many didn’t have a stable home life in ANY fashion, much less one as stable as my own. (My parents have now been married for 28 years this Sept, have gone to the same church for more than 20 yrs now, have only moved once in my 25 years, and for the most part held the same job for at least a decade and a half.)

But just because I was already ‘different’ from the rest the day I walked in does NOT mean I was any better. In fact, I distinctly remember walking into my first meeting with the principal and social worker there and telling them what I was and was not going to do - and was quickly proven wrong on the first day of class.

Each and every one of those kids CAN be reached. Most of the time it simply takes FAR more time than a mainstream teacher can devote to them. Many times it even takes more than an alternative school teacher can devote to them.

My main failure as a man so far, and my primary regret, is that I wasn’t strong enough to get that message through to the kids of Randolph.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Back in the day, my friend, we had what was called reform schools—They actually worked quite well.

By WFC

March 13, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

On Monday at 3:55 I was driving home on Bell road when an object (a ceramic mug) was thrown at my car from a bus by a “student” at River Trail Middle School. It was heavy and did $700 damage. Luckily, it didn’t go three feet higher and hit the windshield or me. I don’t want to “reach” this brat. I want him gone!

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

jim:

‘reform’ schools and ‘alternative’ schools are one and the same, if my knowledge of old-school ‘reform’ schools is accurate.

Difference is attitudes of parents/ kids these days.

Even the alternative school can only do so much. There DOES exist a point where only the parent and the kid himself can change the kid’s behavior. (More specifically the kid, but if the parent isn’t supportive of the alternative school’s efforts, the liklihood of recidivism skyrockets.)

By V for Vendetta

March 13, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff, To be honest, I’m impressed by your story. However, I think you’re still giving the average thug the benefit of the doubt.

I absolutely do not harbor any charitable notions that “every kid can be reached” or other such nonsense. That’s just a bunch of sentimental crap. Some of these kids live, act, and think like animals. They are no better than rabid dogs. Do you think the men who murdered those to innoccent college girls could have been reached? To believe in such things is to be both naive and hopelessly optimistic. Those three animals should be executed swiftly and efficiently.

Again, I commend you for your success, Jeff. You should go speak to some of these kids or something if you feel it will make a difference. In my experience, though, it doesn’t make a difference 99.9% of the time. And no offense, but I don’t want my tax dollars being spent on those odds. Sorry.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

WFC:

And I want him punished for his actions, yet I also want to find out WHY he thought it was OK and help him to change his behavior so that it doesn’t happen again.

THAT is the whole point of alternative schools. You’re being punished for your actions, yet you’re also being taught why they were wrong (believe it or not, some kids honestly didn’t know the things that got them to the alternative school were wrong, or didn’t understand WHY they were wrong) and you’re being trained how NOT to repeat the behavior.

By JustMe

March 13, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

Jeff wrote….

Tater: Shut your hole already.

I feel over onto the floor laughing.

By Tater

March 13, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff, may I ask how long ago you attended this alternative school?

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

V:

Honestly, I DO believe that they could have been reached. But now that they have committted their crime, I also believe that they should be held accountable for their actions, and if society says through a jury that they should die, I believe they should be walked behind the courthouse where they will summarily meet the action end of a sheriff’s .45.

Again, one of the main things pounded into us day after day. Choice and consequences. Make your choice and deal with the consequences. If you make a good choice, the consequences will generally be good. If you make a bad choice, the consequences will generally be bad.

V, we both know the HADES I went through at Randolph. I completely agree with you that many of these kids act no better than animals, and many times I slip and agree that they should be put down. But as long as a human has breath, he has the capability to change his ways. No matter how bad the person, he CAN be changed.

An ancient figure: The man literally actively supported people being killed because they believed differently than he did. He even hunted these people down to throw them in a religious court where they would be summarily sentenced to die. In his own words, he was the worst of the worst that ever lived.

Until one day he was walking to a distant town and was blinded.

Most Americans know that story (at least most older Americans with a knowledge of the Bible). That man, the worst of the worst that ever lived, became the primary conduit for the spread of Christianity in the first century. Quite possibly one of the greatest preachers the world has ever known, and certainly one to whom we as Westerners owe a great deal of our civilization to.

The worst of the worst was reached.

No matter how ‘bad’ I think a kid is, I only have to remember that I was once that bad and was reached. Paul was once worse and was reached.

It is neither naive nor hopelessly optimistic.

It is a strong faith in the power of an Almighty God.

By mmm

March 13, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

We need alternative schools. I see nothing wrong with them being compared to prisons—-prison or worse is where the kids will land if they don’t change their behavior. Better to see it early and make an informed choice on what path they are choosing.

Some will “get it” and change. Some will not. But these schools protect my children from the ones who will not get it, so even a “failure” is not a failure for what the rest of us need these prisons/warehouses/fright houses of tough love to do.

By Tater

March 13, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

JustMe

I feel over onto the floor laughing.

Did you read your sentence? Apparently you missed grammar class.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

Tater:

Long story.

Basics:

Was intially sentenced to 6 months. I personally asked the tribunal for a year and it was granted. At the end of the first year, the principal said I could stay another year if I wanted, and I did. So total time of 2 years.

HOWEVER, after the first 6 months I was already a student at KSU. I was at the alternative school 3 days a week and KSU two days a week. The second year I was at the alternative school, I was at KSU 3 days a week and at the alternative school 2 days a week. I could be wrong about this, but I believe all of my senior year HS credits were joint enrollment credits from KSU (meaning I didn’t actually take a single class at the alternative school my senior year, even though I was still attending there).

By ironmaiden

March 13, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Many of these troubled kids are special ed labeled as “BD”, behavior-disordered. Their fighting, drug-use, weapon-carrying exploits are usually deemed “manifestations of their disability”. They are often exempt from alternative programs, but are federally guaranteed an education through their twenty-first year. And if sent home, they must be served by a homebound teacher. It used to be that small group BD classes held the traffic down somewhat on these kids. But those programs are all but phased out for full inclusion in regular ed programs. These students roam the school with no sense that the rules have any personal application. Sometimes a para pro is hired to personally escort them to class. It is a huge morale buster for students and teachers alike.

By GeorgiaTeacher

March 13, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

I am a high school teacher. No school works for all students, but altrnative schools can work for many. First, they remove some of the most antisocial, ill-adapted kids from the mainstream, which benefits mainstream kids and teachers. Second, some schools offer more convenient hours, like evenings. Third. discipline is more rigid, which is what these kids need. What alternative schools cannot do is what we would all like to do, and that is whip no-good parents into shape. The real problem in our schools today, and in society in general, are people who have no respect for community standards and who have no moral or ethical compass. Because of this, we have a rapidly growing underclass that has created its own misguided, pathologic value system.

By Tater

March 13, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

Jeff, how many years ago did this take place?

I’m trying to determine if, at the time, your experience was different than we are seeing today.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Don’t know about here jeff,

But the two held distinctive differences where i was raised. Back in the day kids were not released every day at 2:00 they stayed for 24 every day, they were not allowed out in the evenings to continue their destructive behavior. Oh, yeah and the high fence to keep them there.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

Tater:

I graduated HS in 2001, but continued going back to the alternative school I went to at least a few times a year until my mentor retired from there. Both to visit with the people I knew as well as to help tutor the kids. They even let me talk to the LifeSkills class (the class where the ‘choice’ thing is drilled in) a time or two. That was 2004, MAYBE 2005.

I could probably walk into the same school today and see the same types of kids with the same types of attitudes. Would probably even see some of the younger kids from the last time I was there.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

jim:

Sounds closer to the Wilderness Camp I worked at for a while. THAT was an interesting experience as well! (I found out REAL quick that I very much like my AC!)

By V for Vendetta

March 13, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I’m glad your optimistic in regards to this topic, but I stand by my assertion that it’s naive to think everyone can be reached.

And without getting this blog hopelessly off topic, I’ll say this:

When it comes to dealing with kids like this, I need more than some kind of faith in god to convince me they can change.

By SET

March 13, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

I back Jeff on this one. I have some experience with rape-torture-murder guys. They are most likely birth defects. You will find them in the “alternative schools”.

Alt Schools are run as reform schools and they know what it takes to get everybody through the day. You don’t second guess them on discipline and by that I mean physical hands on violence.

They know what they are doing.

Another thing.. We are usually talking about raising men not girls. When you have hormonal anti-social personality disordered males you had better be prepared to use overwhelming violence to get everybody to 5pm alive and well. Women don’t get this without spending time in the ER and at funerals and trials.

You don’t fix these bad boys with hugs and kisses. You redirect them with an iron hand.

By JustMe

March 13, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

V, IMHO I do think everyone can be ‘reached’. However, I do not necessarily think that it should be the schools role to do the ‘reaching.’ Schools should provide the opportunity for kids to get an education, period.

Other agencies that are already in place should be doing their job to ensure that problem children are ‘reached.’ This means helping the physically challenged, the mentally challenged, catching the “bad” parents, removing children from “bad” home lives, arresting the kids that break laws, and so on.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

much has changed in the past 40+ years. Can’t say I think much of some of those changes.

JM,

Finally something we can perhaps agree on. “arresting the kids that break laws” Want to reach these kids? Let the long arm of the law do the reaching and let’s quit coddling these pukes.

By JustMe

March 13, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

jd - I agree with you partially. I have seen a number of troubled kids that are that way as a result of things totally out of their control (abusive parents, no parents, no money at home, no food, etc.). Even a dog that is backed into a corner will fight. And, humans that feel that they are trapped can also behave the same way.

I have witnessed troubled kids like that turn around on a dime when they do have at least one careing adult in their lives. Really, that was all the difference that was needed. A single adult that simply asked them how they are doing and maybe even help them a little bit to find answers to their situation. It is like watching the clouds part when the kid realizes that everything in life isn’t horrible.

So, should ALL kids that get into trouble be put in jail…. IMHO, no. Remember, I am the one that doesn’t like blanket and sweeping generalizations and statements.

By Teacher, Too

March 13, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Still grading essays, but I wanted to chime in.

Wha-hoo- jim d and JM agree on something! I’m with you both. Personally, I think it stems back to the self-esteem, don’t make anyone feel bad movement that began in the 80’s and 90’s (I was in elem school in the 70’s and don’t remember my self-esteem mattering much to anyone. I did okay for myself, though.)

Some students not only need consequences, they flat out need punishment. When did punishment become a bad word? If a student commits a misdemeanor or felony that lands him/her in alternative school, there should be consequences and punishment.

I do think there is a difference. Not doing homework has a consequence of a poor grade. Not studying for a test has a consequence of a poor grade. Breaking a law at school has a consequence of alternative school and should have a punishment as well.

Okay, back to the essays again. I have a better batch today- they are actually interesting!

By jim d

March 13, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

I think i may have stumbled upon the answer. Just Pay Teachers Less :-}

By catlady

March 13, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Whoa, Jeff! Lack of expectations in my earlier post was NOT directed at alternative schools. At least it was not intended to be. I agree wholeheartedly with the tough stuff you have talked about. You may not even realize how wholeheartedly. We have kids now, a few, in elementary school who would profit GREATLY by that very same kind of “behavior modification” RIGHT NOW.

Our local alternative school, located on the elementary school campus but in a separate building located 20 feet from the little kids, has grown in attendance by probably 500% in the last 2 years. A couple of counties also send their kids, at much higher rates than our county. While they do some of the “tough love” stuff, my impression is that in giving a 30 minute shirtless recess which well-behaving kids don’t get, perhaps they are rewarding bad behavior. Is the exponential growth due to students’s perception that this is a more fun place? It should not be! I would like to see a jr. ROTC there,complete with drill, inspections, etc.

I would also expect that misbehavior at that school would mean expulsion and frequently referral to law enforcement. I hate it that our fifth graders look out the window and see those goings on, including close contact between the sexes, the police and drug dog there, fights, etc.

I am glad that your experience contributed to your being an upstanding member of the community, a professional man, and a married man. All those things are terrific, and, like others, are in large measure due to YOU and your drive to succeed (or to show them all up? :) Tenacity and stubborness can be a good thing.) What a blessing that you ended up with the mentor you did. I would guess that your experience is far from common, however, and that the success rate is pretty low. Have nothing but “Aunty Em” stories to base it on, however, and no real hard, national, longitudinal data.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

Ok Jm,

Let’s bring the 3 strike rule to schools nationwide. They break the law 3 times and no more alternative school just lock them away. Hey don’t some teachers have second jobs teaching in jails across the country?

By JustMe

March 13, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

jd -

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the alternative school that my relative works in has a ONE stike rule.

Of course, the student is there because they have already been given many chances in their home school and blew it.

Again, I just don’t think a one-size-fits-all solution is fair for kids. Some of these kids are rotten, yes. But, some are not bad kids, but are rather in bad situations (have been sexually abused, physically abused, etc.). Could you really punish a child like you suggest that you know was raped by her father 2 weeks ago?

Just something to think about.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

So being raped would make it ok for her to cut somebody else? I don’t think so—it is thinking like that that finds us where we are today.

I’m not talking about breaking some stupid aS s rule dreamt up by the school here, I’m talking about real crimes that merely get a kid sent off to an alternative school with a slap on the hands. We gotta give up thinking this way.

By Jeff

March 13, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

jim:

For most of the crimes you’re thinking of, the kid typically spends a stint with the local YDC, and the alternative school is the ‘halfway house’ between YDC and the mainstream school.

Rare is it - in my experience - for a kid to be significantly violent (ie: someone went to the hospital) and not get a trip to YDC before the alternative school.

Now threats, fist fights, and the like, yeah, they’ll probably go to the alternative school with no trip to YDC.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

JMHO here my friend but kids know right from wrong way before their 18th birthday. Wanna play? gotta pay needs to be how we handle them.

By jim d

March 13, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Jeff pick up a copy of “Unwind”, or just go here to read a review. I think you’ll enjoy the read.

By catlady

March 13, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

• Not doing homework has a consequence of a poor grade. Not studying for a test has a consequence of a poor grade. Breaking a law at school has a consequence of alternative school and should have a punishment as well.*

T2, in my system, not doing homework does NOT have any direct bearing on a poor grade. We are NOT allowed to lower a grade due to lack of doing homework. Heck, we cannot make them stay in from recess! And a poor grade means little anyway, at least until high school. We pass along the all F kids who have failed the CRCT repeatedly but are not in sp ed, year after year, until they hit high school where—maybe— they have to actually DO something. Then we lament the dropout rate. Is ANY other system as messed up as mine?

Perhaps alternative school should be for persistently disruptive kids, and those who commit crimes should have “other” alternatives, such as studying for GED while incarcerated or in YDC or going to night school if motivated and not yet in jail. comments?

I would LOVE to see some statewide numbers on students who are served by alternative schools and how many, like Jeff, go on to graduate from high school. My bet? Less than 20%. I am SURE that data can be generated, if there is the will to. Just won’t look too good. Is it cost effective? Is “saving” 10 kids out of 50 worth $400,000 plus overhead? (my guess based on 5 teachers plus a few aides plus a record keeper and a principal) In a time of unlimited resources, maybe, but now?

By Lee

March 13, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

So, tell me, is Alternative School just for high school aged students or do they serve the lower grades?

IMHO, the earlier you can segregate the troublemakers away from the general student population, the better off they (both troublemakers and general students) will be.

By Tony

March 13, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

In this discussion of alternative schools, I must agree with Jeff, SET and others who assert the value of such schools. It is truly disgusting to see some of the attitudes reflected by people who have no sense of value towards other humans. Education is still the best tool to move away from lives of poverty and crime into ones that are productive. Believe it or not, these schools are more cost effective than prisons and have a higher success rate.

IT IS NOT THE SCHOOLS’ FAULT that some kids do not have proper training in the home. Many of us have agreed in this forum that we don’t want these kids in classes with our better behaved brightest and best.

This case should be a reality check for all of you who tout the supremacy of privatization. While it is not appropriate to generalize based on one example, there are others to match. Examine the histories of Edison schools and KIPP schools. They have required repeated bailouts from private donors because they cannot succeed on the same amount of money public schools are given.

Jim d, the humor you shared will be shared with my colleagues! Great comedy. The book “Unwind” is very disturbing, though.

Catlady, YDC already has its own school system. When a child is sent, they are enrolled in the YDC school. Many counties offer night school options for students who desire to earn their diploma. I have had the privilege of teaching in such a school. Several of my students from there are quite successful today. As for your estimate of 20% on the graduation rate, that would make an interesting research project. After I finish my dissertation, I may take up that question if someone doesn’t get to it before then.

Last but not least, one of the reasons schools are continually forced into doing things that bend all common sense is the lawsuits from groups like ACLU who look for things to take on. Last year, they challenged a principal in Alaska for suspending students for holding up an offensive banner with the words “Bong hits for Jesus”. Some viewed this as interference with the free speech rights of the kids. Others felt the school had a right to determine appropriate conduct during school hours. If I recall correctly, the school ended up with friendly results on that one. They still had the terrible expenses of the legal battle. After reading the article, I can’t help but wonder if the lawyers would be willing to take the school over and provide an “adequate education”.

So, this is an instance where it is clearly not the schools’ fault for trying to get the unruly kids out of regular schools. These kids have made choices to get them where they are. The groups that advocate for lower standards for society and the courts that back them are the problem.

By Tony

March 13, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

After reading the roll call of the “saints” in the lawsuit it is even more unbelievable that anyone would pursue this lawsuit.

So catlady, would you want your insurance company to pay for a heart transplant if you needed one? After all, half-a-million dollars to save one life is a bit much!

By HSParent

March 13, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

I worked for a couple of years at a school that shared a campus (and faculty facilities) with the program in our system which received the middle and high school kids sent by tribunal. For the most part, those teachers were amazingly invested in turning kids around and they were apparently very successful with some.

One of the teachers lamented often that, as always, there was a huge difference in the routes by which those students were sent to the program. Some were, as mentioned, habitual offenders who had escalated their behaviors. Others happened to make a stupid mistake and their parents didn’t have the wherewithal (or connections) to appeal the ruling, send the kids to private school, etc. (Some of these, he said, seemed to be wrong place, wrong time scenarios.) Some of them were there for overt, violent episodes. All needed help.

Our system decided to increase the level of intervention for these students in hopes of improving results (and decreasing recidivism). Previously, when spaces were very limited, the students were just transferred to another school, which generally exacerbated the problem

As far as the investment, in relation to the two girls who were murdered: Do you think that their parents (and we, as a society) wish that perhaps an investment had been made in intervention with those young men earlier? Now millions of dollars will be spent prosecuting and defending their death penalty cases….Does $40K sound like a better deal now?

By jim d

March 14, 2008 8:02 AM | Link to this

Can someone please tell me exactly when schools became institutions of law enforcement?

When I was a kid the schools weren’t players. They simply picked up a phone and called the local authorities to deal with criminal behavior. I think that expecting schools to deal with these behaviors without having educators properly trained in law enforcement is an open invitation to continued law suits against public schools. Those law suits and out of court settlements that happen every day detract from the education of the entire school population.

JMHO here and I’m sure many bleeding hearts will disagree, but it would make sense to just allow teachers to teach and leave law enforcement up to local authorities trained in enforcing the laws. Public schools were never meant to be institutions of law enforcement they were to be institutions of learning. Throw the thugs out and everyone would benefit!

By Tony

March 14, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

jim d - the tide has been turning gradually during the last 40 years. Court decisions have eroded schools’ authority over maintaining appropriate behavior and supposed “students’ rights” are trumping the collective rights of other students and preventing them from effective learning. These are not decisions that schools have made willingly!

By Jeff

March 14, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

jim:

As I’ve said, disciplinary alternative schools (as opposed to night schools or voluntary alternative schools, such as those for pregnant teens) generally serve a two fold purpose:

1) A sort of ‘halfway house’ between the mainstream school and jail/YDC. After all, would you REALLY want a kid coming straight out of YDC and sitting next to your ‘perfect’ kid in the mainstream school? Why not give them a school that is less stringent than YDC, but FAR MORE stringent than a mainstream school to prove to themselves and all others that they can in fact function in a ‘normal’ school setting? Once they have proven ‘acceptable’ behavior, THEN return them to the mainstream school.

2) Disciplinary alternative schools also give both the schools and the legal system a control valve. Both are already overworked, so why not have a school that can handle the minor infractions that society deems merit removal from the mainstream school, yet are not quite severe enough for a stint in prison? (Again, your basic fist fights - and even some weapon-based fights, depending on the severity-, one kid selling Tylenol to another kid, threats with no overt actions attached, etc.)

FAR better for society as a whole to give these situations a more controlled, more structured, more individualized school to see if these behaviors can be corrected without having to go all the way into the criminal justice system.

As has been said in relation to the two recent murders: Which is a better deal: $40K to try to nip the problem in the bud early or MILLIONS of dollars that can never really undo the damage done in a capital murder trial?

By be ashamed

March 21, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Some of these posts MAKE ME SICK.

My child was an ‘at risk’ youth. My child is NOW a productive member of society. NO THANKS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL. The thanks goes to the mentors he and I Sought outside the system. Thank God it worked.

By Monise

March 23, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

Be Ashamed,

Thank you..I thought I would have to say that! Jeff, I am glad that someone saw something in you and did not give up and write you off as a ‘thug.’

I have worked in an alternative school and nsolutely LOVED it but could not stand the idiot hired to ‘run’ the school. Sadly, the students neither respected nor lked him either. Notice, I included ‘respect’ because that is mroe important than liking someone. I never had any problems with students crossing the line or threatening me. Now the administrators, on the other hand, di because they did not RESPECT the students and that is a key element missing in today’s education system. Yes, they are children but they still deserve respect just as some parent require their children to respect ignorant, incompetent, homophobic, racist, etc. teachers. They do exist…I have worked with many. I say: whatever wroks. Georgia already has a horrible drop-out rate. Believe, no kid I have ever met has confessed wanting to be a drop-out, thug, or drug-dealer. It took someone (usually an adult) telling them they were worthless, not worthy of living (as someone posted), and will never amount to anything to get them to the point where they don’t care.