Get Schooled

By jim d

March 11, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Laura,

Excellent questions!

But there truly is but one answer. MO Money can’t fix our education woes.

At the risk of seeming repetative, here’s a link I posted on an earlier blog. note that the US is second only to Switzerland in per student spending. Also that we were ranked 19/24 in education when this video was done. (rumor has it that we’ve slipped another 3-4 spots since then)

By tater

March 11, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Laura,

Eliminate the state DOE and give the funding to the local municipalities and county schools.

It’s apparent by our abhorrent test scores in this state that the people in DOE have no idea how to give districts the tools they need to teach our students and provide support for the teachers.

I really feel weird today. Even Jim Wooten believes, like I do, about vouchers and school choice…. Is the world coming to an end?!?!

By jim d

March 11, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

tater,

it don’t matter!

More money or even the same money will not fix a failing educational system.

According to Jay Greene of the manhattan institute

“our education spending per pupil has been growing steadily for 50 years. At the end of World War II, public schools in the United States spent a total of $1,214 per student in inflation-adjusted 2002 dollars. By the middle of the 1950s that figure had roughly doubled to $2,345. By 1972 it had almost doubled again, reaching $4,479. And since then, it has doubled a third time, climbing to $8,745 in 2002.

Since the early 1970s, when the federal government launched a standardized exam called the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), it has been possible to measure student outcomes in a reliable, objective way. Over that period, inflation-adjusted spending per pupil doubled. So if more money produces better results in schools, we would expect to see significant improvements in test scores during this period. That didn’t happen. For twelfth-grade students, who represent the end product of the education system, NAEP scores in math, science, and reading have all remained flat over the past 30 years. And the high school graduation rate hasn’t budged. Increased spending did not yield more learning.”

By AlreadySheared

March 11, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

Ha! Amidst a rising property tax digest and significantly declining enrollments, City of Atlanta schools raised the millage rate last year. There will never be enough money!

By tater

March 11, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

jim d

You know my strong stance for vouchers and school choice. You are right.. No additional money will help the failing school districts. What I would really love to see is the disbanding of the state DOE. In my opinion, they are another government agency that can’t do anything right, sort of like the state DHR.

Between the P-Card debacle, the Clayton County school board and our abysmal education system, I think I’d rather tell people that I’m from another state. What an embarrassment..

Since I believe JustMe will chime in about my embarrassment of living in GA, yes I would love to move out of this tax regressive state. Just have to wait a few more years and I’m out.

By teacherteacher

March 11, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

How can the State of Georgia improve its national ranking in education by cutting spending time after time? How can the State of Georgia attract quality teachers by keeping salaries low and inconsistent with inflation rates and cost of living increases? How can Georgia students get access to limited computer equipement to improve their computer skills for the future?

This is the legislature that thought it would be more important to spend money on a program tracking students BMIs.

I agree it’s about how the money, no matter how much or how little, is spent. It needs to be spent wisely.

Instead of creating more programs that put responsibility on the school for parenting, social services, etc., reduce those, get the schools back to schooling and spend the extra money on programs that truly are effective in the classroom.

By jim d

March 11, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

teach teach,

I hold little hope that government can ever fix itself. That my friend is an impossible feat particularly in the area of spending.

By JackD

March 11, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

Years back, there was talk from the Gold Dome that there would be funding for ONE Superintendent and only ONE A*’t Super for each system in GA. Any other concsultants, facilitators, a*’t this, a*’t that, and other educratic positions [other than necessary clerical] in the central offices would have to be funded locally. The money used for those positions would be redirected to positions that come into direct contact with students on a daily basis. In addition, there would no longer be increased pay for more degrees UNLESS that degree applied to what the teacher was teaching…..which makes real sense, doesn’t it? It would be wise to REVISIT this proposal.

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

So let me understand the situation here….

Perdue first makes “temporary” cuts in education a few years ago and never restores them. Now, he further cuts back funding in education.

Does this make sense to any rational person at all? Class sizes in GA (at least in high schools) are already way beyond the national recommendation by anyones standards. And, no matter what anyone says (even jim d), money does help improve education - smaller class sizes, more individual attention to students, better facilities/equipment, and so on.

I would agree that there may be a point of diminishing returns on education investment. But, GA is far away from that point!

So then, the grand scheme of our Governor is to continue giving lip service to improve education, yet push reductions in funding? Isn’t this the republican way?

I wonder if Perdue has gotten raises over these years that he is cutting education????? He certainly hasn’t improved his performance!

By 5th yr in HELL

March 11, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Mandatory birth control and stronger negligence laws, maybe even a DFACS office that actually protects children….money is being wasted by the elite!

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Then per your logic, if no money at all was given to schools (public money or private money), then GA would be ranked #1 in education????

By tater

March 11, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

JustMe

The Republican Way?? Your memory is short. Do you remember Democratic Governor Roy Barnes?? Do you know why he lost the election to Perdue??

See, if you weren’t in a government school you would know about history :-)

I will tell you that Perdue is a jerk in my opinion. He has done NOTHING to enhance anything in Georgia.

As I’ve said previously, with anything in life its either politics or money. In this case its both.

By 5th yr in HELL

March 11, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

oh, c’mon tater…our highways look great!

By linda

March 11, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

Didn’t he recently start that graduation coach program? That seems like the kind of program that could go. Also seems like we sure do buy new textbooks a lot - that don’t even match the curriculum.

By V for Vendetta

March 11, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

I think JimD and tater are right in this case. The money argument, at the end of the day, is basically a red-herring. The real problem is what is being DONE in the schools. If the level of instruction is not up to par, then no amount of money will ever fix the problem.

Admittedly, my computers are pieces of garbage (they’re less than three years old, too) and I am often denied access to things that I would consider fairly basic, but I am hindered more by asinine policies and unenforcable standards than I am by a lack of funding or material.

Unfortunately, as with the money argument, both of these things are unlikely to change any time in the near future. School choice would be a step in the right direction, but it’s probably a long way off (if ever). Too bad.

Because at the end of the day, the ones who get hurt the most are the students.

By jim d

March 11, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

JM,

I hate to burst your bubble (no i don’t) but 24 states spend less and do a better job (according to available test data)than Georgia.

So where is that point of diminishing returns? Spending a million dollars a year still will not enable you to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Rather than continuing to throw good money after bad we should be spending on developing ways to make productive citizens out of those pigs ears instead of demanding they become silk purses.

I would venture a guess that taking a 15-16 year old that doesn’t want to be in school in the first place and teaching them a trade would be more productive, less expensive (and less disruptive) than attempting to teach them a CP curriculum.

Now if you wish to interupt that as defunding public education—I’m ok with your asinine assumption.

By Jeff

March 11, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Easy.

Remove all of the stuff the PARENTS should be doing from the schools, and you’d see a couple BILLION - if not more - statewide freed up for the things a school actually needs, like textbooks, busses, computers, etc.

THEN remove all of the administrative overhead - why does a system of 1000 students need a full-time super who is paid over $100K??? - and you’ve saved a few HUNDRED MILLION more.

But if you want the schools to continue to do the PARENT’s job, you’d better pony up the money if you actually want results.

Cheaper for ALL of us if the parents would just do their jobs already.

By red

March 11, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

Get rid of home ec, typing, computer apps, PE, art, etc. and start teaching the basics, reading, spelling, math, finances, and writing, etc. They can learn the other when they get to college or tech school or on the job. Its crazy that kids are graduating and cant read! There are kids in retail stores who cant even count the change back to me!! If the cash register doenst/cant tell them, they are lost!!

By Joy in Teaching

March 11, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

The Department of Education needs to be abolished, in my opinion. They sit up there in that ivory tower far removed from actual schools and mandate all sorts of silly rules and regulations that do not do anything but waste money and time.

They pass those rules down to the state educrats in their ivory towers who then tack on more rules and regulations and pass those down to the county educrates who tack on even more…and pass them down to the schools.

You’d be absolutely amazed at how much money schools are required to waste by law. Lots of consultants out there….lots of teachers spending time in in- service…learning how to shuffle the mountain of paper or how to make a word wall look even better.

And now schools get to keep up with how fat students are getting. Oh yes…more money down the drain.

Schools in the U.S. spend more money per student than just about any other nation…and we have less to show for it. Other nations do not expect their schools to take up the slack of poor parenting. Other nations do not expect the unmotivated, the unwilling, or the unable to be equal to all others. Other nations do not expect their entire student population to go to college (as Georgia does) nor do they encourage it.

Instead, other nations tailor education to the needs and abilities of their students, whether it be vocational or academic.

It’s not a difficult concept.

We used to do it here in our country, except we’ve gotten so caught up in trying to make everyone equal…that we’ve forgotten that not everyone is equal nor do they have equal ability.

By b white

March 11, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Schools are obsolete. Society has broken the proverbial back of the donkey. Schools cannot monitor obesity, provide healthcare, change diapers, discipline students that parents can’t, feed, provide social services, provide extracurricular activities, babysit, provide transportation, protect students with security, and last teach to for the most part students who don’t want to be in school.

Let each community have a learning center with facilitators. Let the students and parents (who continually berate everything done by the schools) do it themselves, take a test, and go about their merry way.

Can you tell I’m a teacher?????????

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

jim d-

I think that we are talking difference in HOW money is spent. I honestly don’t know where GA falls in the money that goes towards education in terms of national ranking.

However, I would bet that GA falls quickly to near bottom in any ranking that shows actual money spent in the classroom for education. In many/most school systems a large % of money doesn’t trickle down into the classroom but is rather spent on big-budget programs (high schools that work, math first, etc.), big-money consultants, and highly paid administrators. In my classroom, I am shocked if I get 3 markers for my white board for the year paid for by the school. My window blinds have been broken and are falling down for 3 years and cannot be replaced because “the school system just doesn’t have the money.”

Your ranking that shows GA high on education spending may also be counting the money that Perdue put on “temporary” reduction so that the actual money spent on education in GA would be much less.

You must compare apples to apples - well, maybe you don’t to support your positions…..

Jeff I agree with you 100%. Society wants the schools to do EVERYTHING, but doesn’t want to pay the price. What ends up happening is that the schools succeed in NOTHING because our resources are spread too thin. Then, of course, EVERYONE blames the classroom teacher.

By Teacher, Too

March 11, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Time for me to chime in (as I need a short break from the multitudes of poorly written essays I am now trying to wade through!).

If the state would quit passing laws that mandate silly stuff, we (the teachers) would probably be more effective in the classroom. Take, for example, the obesity legislation. Why on earth does this belong in the schools? It’s just one more intrusive piece of legislation that will create more paperwork for teachers.

Another silly issue— the essential question and standards posted on the board. Do we really need clipboard people to come into our schools to check that we are writing and EQ, standard, and number on the board? We have local and state people coming in regularly. If our admins were free to walk the schools and check to see that teachers are actually teaching, then that would just one more expense that could be subtracted from the budget.

NCLB has created a nightmare for budgeting. We have so many demands that we need to meet such attendance and class size issues. Then, the state decides to further cut spending.

What are school systems supposed to do? In the other states that have less spending per pupil, do you know if they have to meet the same type of state-wide mandates?

I say: Do away with the clipboard people! Do away with Learning Focused Schools and the wanna-be Learning Focused Schools! Do away with NCLB!

Keep smaller classroom size, though. We need to be able to control the classes that contain many rude, disrespectful students. (Not all are rude and disrespectful, but if you have 28 in a class and even five fit the category, it can be a nightmare for a teacher!)

Okay, back to reading the poorly written essays…sigh.

By b white

March 11, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Schools and teachers are obsolete. Shut them down. Create community centers with facilitators and have online schools. Let the parents have the responsibilities for education. Schools can’t feed, transport, weigh, teach, babysit, discipline, provide security, etc. Let the parents do it.

By b white

March 11, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Schools and teachers are obsolete. Shut them down. Create community centers with facilitators and have online schools. Let the parents have the responsibilities for education. Schools can’t feed, transport, weigh, teach, babysit, discipline, provide security, etc. Let the parents do it.

By Jeff

March 11, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Joy (and jim, in part):

Completely agree about the fallacy of everyone being ‘equal’.

Quite honestly, as you said, they are not.

Problem: We’ve got 50+ years of laws that say that schools MUST treat everyone as if they ARE equal.

To undo this, we have to undo virtually every education law passed since about 1954/1955.

That’s right… ya gotta go all the way back and undo everything from Brown v Board forward. You MAY even have to go earlier than that, but I doubt it.

By Jeff

March 11, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

bwhite:

Your idea isn’t very far off from a similar one I proposed more than a year ago.

You’ll see that many here - even those who condemn public schools - will scoff at the idea and say it will never work.

My question remains: How do you know until you’ve whole-heartedly tried it?

By high school teacher

March 11, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

If the level of instruction is not up to par, then no amount of money will ever fix the problem.

How about the level of the average IQ in a classroom? Look at the United States and see the countries that score above the US in education. Now look at those countries and see how many of them have compulsory education. In this great nation of equal opportunity, we educate anyone who can breathe, and we expect all breathers to be college material. Thanks to new legislation, even severe/profound students now have the option of earning a regular ed diploma. We are comparing apples and oranges.

I’m the first to hold teachers accountable. However, comparing test scores of students in the US to the student test scores of Japan or Germany is not an accurate assessment. Take our top 15% of test scores and compare them to Japan or Germany; that’s the amount of their contry that receives the privilege of going to school.

Teacher Too, I agree with all of your points. Essential questions are just plain stupid.

By HS Teacher

March 11, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

I was in a meeting all day. Plenty of talk about do this, do that; your school has all the things you need. I don’t have what is needed but people just shrugged their shoulders and rolled their eyes. I thought those in administration are supposed to SERVE and help fix things.

Teachers do not have computers in their classroom, yet students are supposed to have access. Where did the money go? At least Clayton Co will find out because they will have a fiscal audit.

In the mid 70s, all those students started coming to school that previously were not allowed to come—Special Needs. But, the money has not increased anywhere near enough to absorb that many students. What state has 15% of their students in special services? Students with a special ed diploma are not counted as HS graduates and it makes our graduation rate look even lower.

NCLB is for Title 1 schools, but here in GA, ALL schools have to do it but they don’t get the Title 1 money. Why is that? It was political.

Sonny, I heard that teachers vote based on money. If that is true, GA will turn blue.

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too - That is why I am in favor of simplicity…. Tell teachers the content to teach, provide them with materials to teach, and get the heck out of the way!!!

I really don’t care if teachers are THEN held to some standard. For example, give the students a pre- and a post-test. A teacher should do their job well enough such that the students show improvement from pre to post.

However, don’t intrude into the classroom and force teachers to do specific things and THEN try to hold teachers accountable for the results. That is just not fair. And, that is what is happening in the State of GA.

An analogy would be telling a McDonald’s employee to make a hamburger a certain way only and then faulting that employee because the hamburger doesn’t taste good when the employee does exactly what they are supposed to do.

With respect to education costs - it would be far cheaper to simply let teachers do their job than to buy expensive ‘programs’ to force teachers to do specific things.

By Lee

March 11, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

Cry me a handful…

Salaries and wages are one of the largest line items on any school system’s budget. SURELY there aren’t any overpriced personnel on the payroll register. Right?

So, when did Cobb County start paying a In-school Suspension Teacher $114,000 per year? When did Dekalb start paying “Athletics Personnel” $97,000?

One more thing, get out and ride around any county in the state. I guarantee you that you will find numerous school buildings that have been abandoned and are sitting there rotting away. Most of these are sitting empty because the school district could get state money to build a new one, but couldn’t get the money to renovate an existing building.

Buy hey, it’s only money.

By jim d

March 11, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

JM, Dearest,

When calling me a liar In the future please provide documentation. You know I can!

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Lee

You are right, but the salaries you mention are not that many (only one suspension person per school - and by the way, my school’s suspension teacher is a teacher’s assistant making less than $20,000). Most salaries in the school are the worker-bee classroom teacher where salaries may start as low as $24,000.

The big buck people with high salaries are the administration in the school and then especially in the school system offices. That is where the money goes, not into the classroom.

As far as empty school buildings go - I really have not seen any at all. I don’t know where you are looking. Where I am, the property that schools are located is fairly valuable and sold quickly when the buildings are vacant.

By the way, how do you “cry a handful”? Isn’t it “cry a river”?

By Old Physics Teacher

March 11, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

Jim D, I have to disagree with you here, and I’m not trying to flame you, but you have to know the old saw about figures and lies. That’s what that link was about. It is comparing apples and oranges.

There has been a drastic change in education since the 1950’s, and the nation’s priority on, and the value of, education has markedly changed. In the 1950’s it was about student learning. Everything was learning driven. It is now on making sure the same ability students that dropped out in the 1950’s stay in and get a high school diploma. OK, we’re doing that. why are you mad at us? Our drop-out rate was not much more than it is now. The difference is that not everybody was “worthy” of education then, and dropouts were only measured from high school (9th grade). There were plenty of students that dropped out ‘way before then that were not even counted.

The problem is that back then jobs were available for people with a TRUE 5th grade education. There still is, but we don’t want to admit it. The employers say they require a high school diploma.

The only thing schools (at least at the high schools level)are doing wrong is mis-labeling students’ achievement. The 1950’s equivalent of a high school graduate is our current 2-year tech school grad. The 1950’s 2-year AB grad is now our college grad. The 1950’s 4-year college degreed individual is now equivalent to a Master’s degree. All we’ve really done is shift the curve of achievement foward 2 years. A Ph. D. (other than the education degree) is still just as valid as before.

If you want the USA schools to “improve” to back to the 1950’s, all we have to do is what the Czech Republic, and Germany, and Great Britian does - restrict access to high-level learning to only the students with the highest ability.

Wait a minute! Don’t many of their higher-level students apply to colleges in the USA for graduate school? While I was retreading in the 90’s, most of my grad TA’s were here on “green cards.” I wonder why that is? It certainly couldn’t be because we teach better here than there, could it?

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

jd dearest -

I never said you were a liar. If I wanted to type that, I won’t have a problem at all with typing those exact words.

By the way 99% of all of your “documentation” is BS links. Want a link to support all of my positions? Go to:

www.google.com

There. That is my supporting documentation. Happy?

By Tater

March 11, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Once again, for those parents who really care, get your children OUT of public schools.

Ask your elected government officials their stance on vouchers. I’d be willing to bet that none of them want to go against the DOE.

Good work Sonny. You have proven to the world, once again, how much you care about the citizens of this state.

By Tater

March 11, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

JustMe

Your source for information is Google??

God Bless us all…

By Lee

March 11, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Easy- cut the coaches and sports equipment, time and gyms. Schools are for academic education, not to support sports and time wasters. Why schools would cut music and art instruction first, and won’t even consider cutting high school football, is beyond me. Let local businesses support the sports, as they do Little League. Spend the money on books, not sports helmets.

By JustMe

March 11, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

Tater - Once again on these posts, I want to point out that not ALL public schools are bad. There are excellent public schools in GA and in Atlanta. It would be silly and a waste of money for those living in those areas to pay for private schools. Also, ALL private schools are not good. This is a myth perpetuated by people that simply want vouchers - and those are the people already sending their kids to private schools and want public money.

My public high school has a rather large number of students that left their private school because the education provided there was lacking. And, without naming names, those particular private schools are some of the big-name private schools in Atlanta.

By jim d

March 11, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

JM

Blah blah blah.

You won’t name names because you can’t! But then you have always been excellent at making unsubtantiated claims.

By jim d

March 11, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

ol phys teach,

I’m not too sure. The article states that inflation was factored in so maybe we are looking at the same peice of fruit.

By Tater

March 11, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

jim d

It is amazing isn’t it..

My public high school has a rather large number of students that left their private school because the education provided there was lacking

Apparently we need to do drug screenings before we can post anything on this particular blog…

By yesiamworried

March 11, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

Large? I have a hard time believing, but I know of many students who have left private school for a variety of reason. These schools include Marist, Wesleyan and Greater Atlanta as well as Pace and Westminster.

Sometimes, it is because the kids are tired of being with the same kids, sometimes it is because (in some of the above schools cases) access to advanced courses is very restricted, and sometimes it is because the parents realize that little Johnny or Jane is really motivated enough to get their money’s worth.

One of my good friend is in admissions for one of the big name private schools. She says a huge percent of the time, the students that are top in the class are not students that were educated at that school k-12, but often kids from public school that entered in 9th grade.

By catlady

March 11, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this

While I was retreading in the 90’s, most of my grad TA’s were here on “green cards.” I wonder why that is?

Old Physics, many of the TAs hope to start a family while here and establish legacy babies. Then they can get permanent permission to stay and make much more money.

Other states do better than we do because they start with better inputs (students and their home environments) Our demographics put us at risk right out of the starting block. And I am not talking about race here, but about disadvantage. I teach in an area with virtually no black students, and our scores are near the bottom. It isn’t the Latino children either (about 20%). Many of them outdo the “native” kids. Before you compare outcomes, compare starting points. Compare family income and parental educational achievement. THEN talk about how much better others are doing than Georgia.

We have been “asked” to give up our planning time(actually it was kind of funny. Sort of like when the elders come to your house to get you to pledge for the church), or to come in earlier, to provide (additional, unpaid) services for RTI. RTI, at least as my county is implementing it, is SH!T. We have kids whose parents are BEGGING for them to be tested for special ed—they have been failing for years but passed on anyway— but we won’t test until we have done the 16 weeks of additional individual and very small group instruction, etc. Never mind that the child has had YEARS of afterschool instruction, EIP instruction, summer school instruction, etc. We have other kids who are OBVIOUSLY “developmentally delayed” but they have to go through the RTI process. Meanwhile, these kids who need testing and placement are in class with YOUR children, disrupting and using a high proportion of teacher time just for their individual and small group instruction. Of course, we just “expose” them to concepts, rather than teach to mastery, and we “make” them successful by altering the material to years below grade level. We have been on hold all year waiting for the RTI instructions. Now it is March, and we have the papers to fill out. In 9 weeks school will be out. Another year gone.

I could go on and on (and probably will :)

By Lisa

March 11, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, after 50 years, test scores are flat, but money spent per pupil has increased dramatically. The first thought that pops in my head is that nowadays, right or wrong,we spend tons of money educating children who don’t improve our test scores. For example, my niece has Down-Syndrome. She requires a special ed teacher and para whom she shares with three other students, a Speech therapist, and an occupational therapist. She will never “pass” the TEST, but receives a “free and appropriate” education. Her education is so incredibly expensive, no private school could provide it at a cost any middle class family could afford. Does my niece’s education improve her quality of life? Yes. Overall test scores? No.

I just thought I’d throw this in. Sometimes loads of money is spent in education for the “betterment of society,” with no impact on test scores. Whether or not that spending is justified is another topic.

By Lisa

March 11, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

I was particularly dismayed to find out that Speech will also by handled by RTI. I have no training whatsoever in Speech, but now the Speech teachers are supposed to “advise” regular ed teachers on methods to work one on one with students during class to intervene for speech problems. First off, I don’t even recognize speech problems that don’t impact how the child talks. Secondly, speech therapists have MASTER’s Degrees in Speech, and I’ve never had a single class!! Lastly, what the heck are the rest of my students supposed to be doing while I work one-on-one with the child I “think” “might” have a speech problem.

Geesh!!

By Lisa

March 11, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this

Of course, I think the “Response to Intervention,” (RTI) is just another way to save money and cut funding for education. As I mentioned in my above post, special education is incredibly expensive.

By C.R.H.

March 11, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

Cut out all the “dead weight”…that would be all the administration. Schools are too top heavy. I also think the students/parents should be hounded (by collection agencies?) to return or pay for the text books. As of the last time I checked many books are lost & no money ever seems to get collected. Texts are very expensive!

By V for Vendetta

March 11, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

Hold on, back up …

Jeff has made one of the most astute points on the entire blog and it bears a quick review:

Only when the schools cease to be held accountable for things that should fall under PARENTAL duties will the money ever go where it is truly needed. Case in point (one I have made multiple times before):

I teach in a fairly well-to-do area. It is one of the “good” high schools in metro Atlanta, strong in both athletics AND academics. Our district is full of upper-middle class families, many of which have lived in the area for years and years. Despite this fact, fully one fifth of our school is on the Free/Reduced lunch program. For all you math majors out there, that’s 20% of our student body. One fifth. Let me say it again … ONE FIFTH.

There is not a single place within our school district (this aint Hyperbole, people) where you could honestly convince me that parents can’t afford FOOD for lunch. Bread? Peanut Butter? Jelly? Apparently they are all too expensive and beyond the means of these poor, destitute folks. Granted, my main beef is with the types of people who take advantage of such a program, considering it comes at the expense of the tax payers. Nevertheless, it represents an ENORMOUS chunk of money that is p** away every year. Trust me, Jeff’s point is a valid one.

Education is not a right, folks; nor should it be treated as one.* Let me say that again:

EDUCATION IS NOT A RIGHT.

Figure that out, America, and maybe we’ll be on to something.

• Yes, I understand that education IS a right. That’s the problem! Get it?

By Old Physics Teacher

March 11, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

Jim D,

I know it’s late, but I just got back on. My apples and oranges comparison was in comparing the students, not the money spent. The schools in the countries mentioned competitively select students for their schools. If you’re not “book smart” you get sent to a trade school (and consequently your scores on “book tests” are not included in their national averages). You are sent directly into the labor force from there. You, nor your parents select the schools; the schools select YOU. You study on your own with private tutors (paid for by your parents) on the weekend. I have a former students of mine doing this in Japan right now. If you score high enough on the entrance exam, you get in. If not, tough luck. You now change the oil in cars, collect garbage, or some other mindless job for the rest of your life.

This entrance requirement is similar to the way private schools work here. Very, very few students from the “general schools” in Great Britian go on to universities. At age 16, the regular students finish public schools and go on to trade schools. Our private schools rank right up there with the other countries, though. Well, duh! They should. In fact, they should BEAT the other nations. We have better educators. In the USA we assume (and you know what that word really means) that all our public school students are top students. Like Huey Long said about the citizens of Louisiana, we want all our students to be above average! That’s why our stats stink compared to other nations.

And yes, I agree we spend too much money in schools. If parents would quit suing school systems (and schools systems would quit making decisions based on being afraid to be sued), and the federal and state governments would quit creating unfunded mandates, our costs could go down. Unfortunately, none of the above is viable. Costs will continue to go up and net scores on high stakes tests will continue to fall compared to other nations until the population, in the form of our government, redefines what “a good education” means.

In fact, I’m outta teaching under these constraints in 6 years. I’m going to sell my services on the open market. Our legislature AND the DOE have now stated that all students entering the 9th grade next fall MUST have credit for 4 years of science to get their diploma. Our state is about 25% understaffed in science teachers now. In 4 years, it’s gonna be 50% or greater. Can you say “signing bonuses” for certificated science teachers in-field? How about these teachers getting to pick what classes and what students they’ll teach? How about extra pay for science teachers with majors in the “hard” disciplines of physics and chemistry? How about teachers playing one school system against another? That’ll be me in 6 years! Then I’ll be posting on this site about what a gread job I’m doing teaching. I’ll be as great a teacher as Vince Dooley was a football coach. During Georgia’s National Championship season Vince would say, “OK Hershel, take the ball, run to the sideline, turn upfield and score. If you have to, run over the safety!” And Hershel would do just that! That meant that Vince was a great coach, right? ;)

By FedUpTeacher

March 11, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

I agree with a lot of the comments above. 1. We force students that don’t want to be in school and still try to teach them like they are going to college. 2. Public schools are a reflection of our society. Morals and work ethics are really going down. 3. Too much money is placed in administration and making teachers teach a specific way. Learning Focus is not the answer and won’t be. 4. Federal and state laws make it impossible to operate a school like we should. Those students that don’t want to learn should be kicked out. Too much responsibility is put on the schools for everything and parents aren’t doing there job #1. 5. Being a teacher, I am tired of hearing administrators tell me there is no excuse for students that are failing but coming from homes that are like Hell. 6. Quit telling teachers to teach students that are in elementary school to think out of the box when they can’t even do simple tasks like remembering times tables and still don’t in middle school.

Simply, if we don’t go back to the basics, make children mind and parents held accountable for their child’s behavior, our public schools are going to continue to fail. Probably the best answer is to do away with the DOE and privitize education which will put more of a responsibilty on the parents and at the same time hold teachers responsible as well. Both then will have to produce to stay there like in other countries. Then get rid of all the illegal immigrants draining our tax dollars and put these kids that don’t want to learn doing their jobs. Yes, there are jobs out there for all, even those without a high school or college education. Our society has got to make people responsible for their actions and get a handle on this problem. You are responsible for your actions and behavior. We have lost this concept in America.

By catlady

March 11, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this

Parental roles given to the schools: monitoring decent clothing, social worker assistance, school nurse, school counselor, providing behavioral counseling, providing for photographic opportunities, providing lunch and breakfast, providing transportation, providing clothing and shoes, fine arts instruction, physical ed, clubs and sports coaching, translation services, stopping pugilistic interactions, mentoring, psychometric services, “volunteer activities”, special instruction (EIP, Summer school, tutoring, afterschool), babysitting (after school), checking hearing and vision, adminstering medicines, (Next: checking for fatness and counseling parents?)

By Old Physics Teacher

March 11, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta, The true test of a person’s intelligence is how well they agree with your position. You’re a very smart person! Down right brilliant!

By Autoteacherman

March 11, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

Who wins in this? The parents, students or the businesses that hire the product of the schools. Money for private schools, money for public schools cut. How does that make sense? Teachers will look forward to more floggings until the morale improves. Administrators trying to meet AYP, NCLB and who gets ground up and spit out? Teachers and/or Students? I will face my students tomorrow and do my best, but don’t tell Sonny. He may want me to work for less when he finds out the raise/pay cut he has planned did not run me back to industry where I can make twice as much without having to answer to multiple parents, administrators on why Johnny does not learn. Signed, A Georgia public school system teacher of the year.

By Tony

March 11, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

jim d - you gotta do better than quote Jay Green. His distorted interpretations of numbers are some of the most egregious I’ve ever run across.

How about looking into a study reflecting percent of GDP for education funding? I think you’ll be surprised by the findings.

Mr. Green deliberately omits several important factors from his “analysis”. For instance, the 1950s and 1960s education budgets did not provide special education services for children with disabilities. Courts required us to begin providing these services then federal mandates have expanded the roll of these programs in our schools. Mr. Green ignores the reality that many of our country were denied access to an education due simply to their skin color.

Lies, damm lies, and statistics!

By V for Vendetta

March 11, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

OPT,

So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that the selecting of students based on ability is a bad thing? Are you saying that waking people up to the notion that some kids are better suited to dig ditches for the rest of their lives rather than go to college is a bad thing? Because you know what … I don’t.

Let’s be frank here. Not all people are created equal. Some people are smarter than others, some people are more athletic than others, some people are better looking than others. It may not be fair, but thems the breaks, kid. Life is NOT fair. Europe has it right. Enough of this “I’m not a good test-taker” crap and asinine parent complaints. The cream of the crop, the best students with the most potential to succeed will ALWAYS (one more time, please) ALWAYS rise to the top. IF you want something bad enough like, oh, say, a future of higher education, then you will work your tail off to get it. Values no doubt instilled by your parents, eh?

We all start life with a choice: we can be accountable for our actions and make the most of our lives, or we can be victims and make excuses for everything that doesn’t go our way. Am I elitest? Sure. Am I classist? Absolutely.

People like Fed Up Teacher and Catlady have it right. People like Jeff have it right. Schools need to focus on the basics and focus on educating those worth education. Screw the rest.

I mean, someone’s gotta pick up my garbage, right?

By Teacher Three

March 11, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

Hear! Hear! My fellow teachers! Essential question, these students don’t know what anything about essentials, i.e., writing, reading, arithmetic, hygiene, respect, manners, table manners…the list is immeasurable.

I agree with whoever voiced the opinion that we should get rid of the Graduation Coach in Middle School position. How about adding Reading Teachers in every school. After all these children can’t read.

In addition, I would like to know why we need new buses? Let the little ones walk off some of that excess weight. Home school is not the answer! The parents aren’t teaching them anything at home. That is why we have so many behavior problems.

You need to increase my salary to align with the job specs of my counterparts in Corporate America! Let’s see: Project Manager: 25% Weekly, Social Worker: 15%, Test Adminstrator: 10%, Technical Advisor: 5%, Academic Instructor: 20%, Drug, Career, Behavior, Community PR and Health Advisor: 25% (Including 24/7 accessibility for Parents and students)

That equals eight jobs, plus accessibility…I am missing seven of my monthly paychecks.

By Teacher Three

March 11, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Hear! Hear! My fellow teachers! Essential question, these students don’t know what anything about essentials, i.e., writing, reading, arithmetic, hygiene, respect, manners, table manners…the list is immeasurable.

I agree with whoever voiced the opinion that we should get rid of the Graduation Coach in Middle School position. How about adding Reading Teachers in every school. After all these children can’t read.

In addition, I would like to know why we need new buses? Let the little ones walk off some of that excess weight. Home school is not the answer! The parents aren’t teaching them anything at home. That is why we have so many behavior problems.

You need to increase my salary to align with the job specs of my counterparts in Corporate America! Let’s see: Project Manager: 25% Weekly, Social Worker: 15%, Test Administrator: 10%, Technical Advisor: 5%, Academic Instructor: 20%, Drug, Career, Behavior, Community PR and Health Advisor: 25% (Including 24/7 accessibility for Parents and students)

That equals eight jobs, plus accessibility…I am missing seven of my monthly paychecks.

By amazed

March 11, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this

I think a lot of money could be saved by grouping the kids by ability so that a teacher could spend real time shaping lessons to the ability of the class, rather than asking the more advanced students to “tutor” and babysit the slower kids.

I am also always astounded by all the whining about class size being a barrier to education too… I may not be Einstein but I do pretty well, and was NEVER in a class of less than 30 kids, even in kindergarten; I have the class pictures to prove it. And nobody was wringing hands thinking that the classes were too big. I will say that it was clear that from 7th to 12th grade (1972-1978), I was in class with pretty much the same people for years, because we were put in classes based on ability. The economies of letting the smart kids exceed and allowing the others to proceed at a slower pace cannot be denied. This PC crap about not wanting to differentiate between kids is ridiculous and serves no one.

We also forget sometimes that computers are a tool, and should not be substituted for the teacher. Too many schools rely too much on “teaching the tools” instead of the core curriculum. I am very proficient with a PC, but I fail to understand why a 3rd grader needs to master PowerPoint. Emphasis on all the wrong things, and to whomever said he/she can work in “industry” and make 3 times a teacher’s salary with a 9 month schedule, you are simply DREAMING THE BIG DREAM. It just won’t happen. Go see for yourself, I dare you. And you won’t find the kind of job security to enjoy as a teacher in that world.

By luvs2teach

March 11, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this

Strangely enough, this topic came up today with my colleagues - before I saw the blog!

These were my suggestions:

• Eliminate consultants, speakers, and “cure du jour” programs like Reading First, America’s Choice, and LFS.

Although it’s not a choice, we need to eliminate whatever legal barriers exist to having builders fund road, school, and public services for new subdivsions.

• Eliminate or consolidate non-teaching positions particularly those at the central office - eliminate redundancy.

• Increase the distances by 1/4 mile for walkers, sreamline and consolidate bus runs.

• Redistrict so that we don’t have empty classrooms at one school and rented trailers at the next.

• Actually charge students for lost books - hey, it worked for some public libraries; it could work for us and/or charge a deposit on books.

• Charge an administrative paperwork fee for mid-year transfers within the county - I am at a transient school and we waste a lot of time and money tracking down records. In-county mid-year transfers aren’t usually due to job transfers - they’re due to apartment hopping

By luvs2teach

March 12, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this

In response to some other posts:

Amazed - I could easily teach a class of 35 - if all I needed to do was lecture. Unfortunately, the powers that be don’t want a “sage on the stage” - they want differentiated lessons with a “guide to the side” - you can’t do that effectively with thirty kids.

BTW - I could totally get another great job, making more, with as much security - I have a science degree - not science ed - SCIENCE. Unfortunately my blog name says it all.

I know I’ve mentioned it - someone even linked it once - but the powers that be need to read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. We are kidding ourselves if we think every child is equal and they should all be college prep.

How fair would it be to give the football coach every kid on school, and tell him he needs to field a championship team, with everyone playing equally well. When they don’t, the coach gets bad reviews and needs to attend mandatory training to improve his coaching. How is that fair?

What I want to know is this: Why are we as a society comfortable with differing abilities in athletics, yet can’t seem to admit that there are differing abilities in academics?

We’re kidding ourselves and it’s costing us - not just financially, either.

By mrk

March 12, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

Problems:
1. There is not enough money to fully fund education. 2. The education system that is funded is broke and no one knows how to fix it (although they try to enhance it with many programs, a volkswagon will only go so fast) 3. Administrators are necessary (contrary to belief, the real administrators are the principals and assistant principals in schools that are overworked and underpaid—which will lead to a huge shortage of QUALIFIED leaders because the smart people will stay in the classroom). 4. Teacher pay was cut under Barnes, Perdue has not gotten it back to keep up with inflation—thus the Republicans will loose the next election because teachers can not afford gas to work. 5. The most important thing to remember is that the average American kid will loose out in all of this. It’s the one person no one advoacates for. 6. Just a side note on Perdue and his graduation coaches, he only funds 25,000 (or about) for the position. That doesn’t cover a first year teacher and their benefits. A first year teacher shouldn’t have the job to begin with, so local $ has to be used to fund the position. If that is his greatest educational achievement, he better not put that on his resume. 7. NCLB has taken the “life” out of teaching. We have to keep the worst of the worst in the classroom that has standards posted everywhere (I agree with teaching standards, but posting all 57 standards on the wall will not increase the class IQ).
8. Teaching is no longer an enjoyment, and although many would arugue it shouldn’t be—learning should! 9. Most of the people with “answers” have not ever been in a classroom or have been out of the classroom so long that they forgot what it was like. Teachers are just trying to stay afloat—

Solutions: Middle and High: 1. Divide middle and high schools by gender (Holy Cow, what am I thinking…think about and get back to me) 2. Go to uniforms (not prison uniforms, slacks and polos to teach to “dress for success”) 3. Mandatory STAR programs in every school 4. Student move to next level through mastery of content (not promoted to next grade due to age, behavior, etc… Special Education-same, except content must match student ability level) 5. More Instructional leaders in schools, also known as Assistant Principals. If Wal-Mart can have 2 assitant managers and 12 department managers, schools should have similar leadership support. 6. Move DOE out of Atlanta. DOE is made up of Cobb County employees who know very little about the rest of the state. Cobb countians are the only ones that work at DOE because no one else is dumb enough to pack up and move there. Perdue said he was going to get state programs scattered throughout the state and cut down on Atlanta down mangagement, so far so…. well you know. 10. Teacher effectiveness is tied to teacher happiness. Happiness is not tied to money, but rather to support from leadership. Leadership is governed by NCLB which does not take into account the “human” factor. Do we really think that all students will speak English by 2013 and that all SPED students will be healed, or that all students will graduate and become lawyers and doctors—then why set unachieavable goals? Only to squeeze the life out of it, so that it can not survive.

By Racebaiter

March 12, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this

The schools should be teaching more, spending less already. Duh.

By Love my 4 kids

March 12, 2008 3:46 AM | Link to this

When our water was in short supply, citizens of Georgia were called upon to voluntarily cut back on personal water use and outdoor watering. I would like to personally call on Georgia parents, who are able, to pull your child out of public school and either home school them or send them to a private school. You may have to make some sacrifices, but you will be well rewarded for your efforts. This will free up more space/money/teachers for those students who are less fortunate and have no other option but public school.

Just today, during my home school geometry lesson, my 7, 10, and 12 year old were sitting at the kitchen table using origami to fold colorful polygons and sorted and labeled them for their notebooks. We then studied the four types of triangles and folded three of each. I showed them how to place one of each of the different angles together like a puzzle to form a straight line. We then used a protractor to measure each angle and found that they added up to 180 degrees. They discovered that this was true for all 4 kinds of triangles. We also labeled the various parts of a circle and my seven year old figured out mathematically that if one half of a circle is 180 degrees, then a whole circle is 360 degrees. He could also figure out that if the radius of the circle is 8 in. then the diameter is 16. He drills his math facts and multiplication facts daily and was excited to get a chance to apply this knowledge in geometry. Origami makes it a snap to teach the idea of congruency. They fold a square of paper in half, and they can see it. A sheet of origami paper can also be used to easily visualize a point, ray, line and plane. At our house, sometimes it is hard to see where art ends and math begins.

My 10 year old is currently studying the history of Ancient Greece. My husband happens to travel there on occasion and so my 7 year old is eager to learn Greek. I told him I would try to find a curriculum that teaches the Greek alphabet first. On his own, he searched my 10 year old’s history book and found a chart with the Greek alphabet and its English equivalent. He carefully copied the chart and then tried to write his name in Greek. He proudly showed me the fruits of his labor. This type of self-motivated learning happens quite frequently in the home school environment. We also use very structured “sage on the stage” videos that challenge them to think quickly and to memorize and master a core body of knowledge. Using intensive phonics, all of my children learned to read, spell, and write by the age of five. This is quite common in private and home schools. I am not a reading specialist nor do I have an education degree.

Home school can be cost effective for the savvy shopper. Our home school has no shortage of the latest in technology. All of our iMacs were purchased with generous home school discounts. Not only do I receive a 20% discount on books purchased from two major booksellers, but also home school discounts on swim lessons, bowling, roller skating, skate boarding, and other activities. The biggest surprise was a home school discount for our son’s BRACES! We spend very little on gasoline (unlike those big yellow public school busses or soccer mom vans). No one in our family has been sick for the past TWO YEARS! With home school, my kids brush their teeth right after every meal, and no one had any cavities at their last check up. They also get to eat healthy home cooked lunches and no one is overweight. Junk food is kept to a bare minimum. I could go on and on about the benefits of home schooling, but perhaps you and your family should discover it for yourselves.

By jim d

March 12, 2008 6:50 AM | Link to this

Thanks Tony,

I’ll give your comments due consideration. That is one reason I like to post my sources.(to get other opinons, I’m just not crazy about some bloggers that just attempt to discredit EVERY SOURCE I provide without ever really reading them. (know what I mean?)

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

jim and Tater

Wow. U r two of what I see as the biggest idiots that post here, IMHO. R u not the same person using two handles?

Tater - My google.com comment was to make fun of the so-called ‘documentation’ that jim d always wants to ‘provide.’

You want me to name names? Fine. How is Westminster? How is Marist? These are just two of the private schools where some of our public school kids come from.

Idiots.

By V for Vendetta

March 12, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

Love 4 My Kids,

You and your husband sound very educated, so this probably doesn’t apply to you, but speaking from a teacher’s perspective …

If I had a dollar for every socially inept moron who shows up at my school after being “home schooled,” I wouldn’t have to teach. You must understand, the people like you and your husband are truly few and far between. In fact, I would wager that you have no idea how rare you are. The vast majority of home schooled kids (the VAST majority) come in at least two grade levels behind the pack with the social skills of a retarded lowland gorilla. It’s sad. In my honest opinion, I think it’s a form of psychological abuse. Kudos to you for pushing your children’s educational horizons. We should all be so fortunate.

However, you are the exception to the rule.

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

As has already been discussed, although the net collections for education may be sufficient, the real problem is that this money does not trickle into the classroom. Solve that problem and education will improve.

Where does the money go? Well, people have already posted info about ridiculously high paying positions such as coaching, administration, etc. There are expensive programs purchased by school systems (we are talking millions of dollars here). There are high-pay consultants (usually retired ex-employees).

These are some of the costs that suck money away from where it really belongs - in the classroom.

By Tater

March 12, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Luv m 4kids and *luvs2teach

JustMe needs to read your postings as well as the others listed above.

She is the product of a government school and, despite the reams of information from the STATE DOE AND OTHER GOVERNMENT DATA, refuses to believe that vouchers, home schooling, school choice are the answers to an ever increasing problem.

Idiot? Yes, I’m an idiot JustMe for recognizing what a FAILURE government schools are, especially yours in DeKalb County, with a caveat to the schools in north DeKalb County who seem to have their act (and test scores) together.

Need an example…Just look at Clayton County. How about your child graduating from a school that is not accredited?

Pitiful…

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Love 4 my kids You sound like wonderful parents - in many ways. You also sound very educated and intelligent. In addition, it sounds like you are a stay-at-home Mom which affords you the time to home school.

Unfortunately, all parents are not like you. You are rare, indeed, and your children will benefit.

The only issue that I would caution you on is when your children begin high school advanced courses. I’m not sure any parent(s) is qualified to teach all advanced courses such as calculus, physics, chemistry, etc. You may want to consider hiring a private tutor in those subjects if you want to continue home-schooling during those K-12 years. Otherwise, colleges may see something lacking in their applications/qualifications.

By Tater

March 12, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Show me one shred of factual data that shows more money will solve the problem. Come on now, you are a highly educated teacher so it shouldn’t take you long to get the data.

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Tater

LOL. You contradict yourself in your postings.

Love4MyKids is a product of the public school system and seems to be very intelligent. And, she is home schooling her kids. So then, per your logic, since she is a product of public schooling she is a failure?????

Also, in the last post you first state that all government public schools are failures. Then, you say that the schools in north DeKalb (which are government public schools) are successes and have “their act together.”

Can you please at least have a consistent message?????

By WFC

March 12, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Oh my! As Sonny and Cher said— “the beat goes on.”

• NCLB is a joke. As long as there is inequality in society, there will be inequality in schooling. Human nature. No government bureaucracy can change this.

• My son has two parents with masters degrees and dedicated to learning. We will write a check for $100,000 this afternoon if that’s what it takes for him to succeed. We prep and debrief him everyday on his subjects (calculus, physics, organic chemistry, AP US history, AP literature, Latin). And you think that some silly little tests and teachers overloaded with 120 students will offset that? Dream on.

• The “sage on the stage” conducting a good lecture/discussion is a good learning method. I laugh at the silly little “group projects” I see in grade level classes. Right… that really works. It’s necessary, though, since many current teachers are deficient in content knowledge.

The beat goes on….

By Tater

March 12, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Maybe you need to read the postings a little more clearly..

would like to personally call on Georgia parents, who are able, to pull your child out of public school and either home school them or send them to a private school. You may have to make some sacrifices, but you will be well rewarded for your efforts. This will free up more space/money/teachers for those students who are less fortunate and have no other option but public school.

North DeKalb Schools have their act together, I’m sure yours doesn’t.

There are always exceptions to the “norm”, so I guess that I need to be more detailed when I deal with government educated folks… Sorry…

By Tater

March 12, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

JustMe

I noticed that you neglected (by choice I’m sure) comments regarding Clayton County Schools.

Your opinion please if you are a parent of one of the many, soon to be, non-accredited students??

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this

WFC

I agree with you 100%. However, not all families can do what you do for your children. This is one of the many reason that we have to find a way for all public schools to ‘succeed.’

You pointed out that NCLB is a failure - so then we first need to get rid of this. IMHO, we also need to get rid of all of the involvement of politicans in education. Let the professionals do their job.

We also need to ensure that the money spent on education goes to where the ‘rubber meets the road’ - the classroom. Stop the expenditures for administration, for programs, for other stuff that takes the bulk of the money.

Do those 2 things first, and I would bet my paycheck (LOL - that won’t be that big of a bet) that you would find quick improvements in education.

By Tater

March 12, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Still waiting for the data supporting your position that more money will make education in GA better??

I’ll be here all day…

By meme

March 12, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

If the money was spent on the student’s education, it might make a difference. We are too busy buying new office furniture to impress the public when they come to our school.

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Tater

Well, I was hoping that you would have a brain. With a brain, you would be able to clearly figure out that with an increase in money, you could hire more teachers. With an increase in teachers, the number of students per class would decrease.

And, it has already been proven that fewer students per class does improve student learning. The teacher can give more individual attention per student.

Another way money would help education? Well, with a brain you could also figure out that money could be used to purchase the equipment needed so desperately in the classroom: white board markers, lab supplies, calculators, and so on. With this classroom material, teachers could create better activities for students such that students could understand better/more.

Heck, there are a number of schools that don’t even have the most basics: air conditioning, heat, glass pains in the windows, window blinds, student desks, etc. Money would certainly help here.

This, of course, is assumming that the education money would be spent in the classroom and not on the other wasteful things that I have already discussed.

I guess that I wrongly assumed that people smart enough to type on this blog also have a brain to think….

Again, if you insist on some web site, check www.google.com! LOL!!! Or, how about www.ask.com!!

By Tater

March 12, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Your right, apparently I don’t have a brain since all the money taxpayers pay each year does not cover the basics like air conditioning and heat.

Yea, I’m the one without a brain..

By Tater

March 12, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Apparently you can’t read very well. How about answering my questions since you have Google, the one stop shop for all your educational needs.

You do an excellent job of supporting my positions regarding vouchers and school choice.

For that I thank you….

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Tater

Apparently, you haven’t been inside of a school in many years. Treat yourself and spend some time in a few. This experience may educate you on modern problems in education. Then, maybe your opinions will have value.

By Tater

March 12, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Believe me, I know the problems in education. All I need to do is read your postings.

BTW, you still haven’t addressed my questions about Clayton County and how more money will improve the education system (From Factual Data). Tried to look it up on Google and Ask.com and couldn’t find a reason..

By meme

March 12, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Tater Where are these schools?

By meme

March 12, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Tater, I totally agree that AC, desks, books, boards and a few other things are necessary. I have been teaching long enough to remember kids (and parents) passing out from the heat. Of course I also remember when there was no lunch program but that was when I was in elementary school. lol

By JustMe

March 12, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

Tater (AKA jim d) yawn. u r a bore. If you cannot understand my postings, that is your problem. If you want data, do your own research. I am through with you.

meme Don’t expect any reasonable exchange of ideas with Tater (aka jim d). It reminds me of a saying….. “Never have a battle of wits with someone unarmed.”

By Tater

March 12, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

JustMe

I’m not jim d, but I know you won’t believe me. But then again you believe in anything like the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and quality government schools.

Got to go myself. Need to pay taxes for failing school districts…

Yes, I’m unarmed since I look at the facts about the pitiful school districts in metro. Notice you still haven’t addressed the Clayton County question.

Battle of wits?? Good luck.. Look at the data from the DOE website, one department that really doesn’t want people to know what an idiotic agency they are. Yes, I’m through with you as well. Can’t have an intelligent conversation from someone who is in a failed system and exposes Google as your factual data source.

meme Not sure what you mean by these schools? Are you talking about Clayton County???

By Tater

March 12, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

An excellent comment and thought provoking.

*These institutions are no longer schools. They are government indoctrination centers, owned and operated by government and staffed by government employees who have every reason to teach dependency on government and no reason to produce a generation of children who have learned how to depend on themselves.

The single most prevalent form of child abuse in this country is the act of sending a child to a government school. We worry incessantly about the separation of church and state. We would do well to devote half as much attention to the separation of government and education.*

By Tater

March 12, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

*There is no greater long-term threat to our continued prosperity, economic liberty, freedom, and quality of life in the United States than that presented by teachers unions. And that includes Islamic terrorists.

We can recover from the destruction that may be visited upon us by these Islamic radicals. But can we recover from the damage being done by our hideous government schools?

A massive terrorist weapon might destroy a city. Our government schools will destroy a nation.

There are millions of our children in government schools every day. Those schools are responsible for making sure that these kids learn what they need to survive as adults in the world.

Face it: they’re failing.

That means that the future of those kids—that is, the next generation of adults, who will have to keep this country going for the next thirty or forty years—is in jeopardy. Those kids aren’t getting what they need to cope in a free society. They are being educated to become perfect myrmidons, in love with government and suspicious of liberty.*

By Tater

March 12, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

First, let’s get our terms straight. Our so-called “public schools” are government schools. They’re operated by the government, using government employees, on property owned and controlled by the government, using government funds. And they should be identified as such—if only to reveal the malicious wizard behind the curtain.

The most rampant form of child abuse in this country is not only legal, but committed routinely. It is the act of taking what arguably is, or should be, the most precious things in your life—your children—and placing the responsibility for their education in the hands of the government.

By Steve

March 12, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

Tater, Tater, Tater…. You really should begin to think for yourself instead of repeating the dribble of Neal Bortz. I suggest you look closely at the facts before spouting misinformation and half truths. I often hear this argument from the least educated of my fellow citizens

By catlady

March 12, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Eliminate or consolidate non-teaching positions particularly those at the central office - eliminate redundancy

Luvs: stamp out and ELIMINATE redundancy!

I agree with your suggestions.

I agree with another suggestion: Don’t even THINK about posting about the “trouble” with schools until you spend a week observing in them! Not your Affluent East Cobb schools, either, and not necessarily all inner city schools. Go to several. Stay all day. You are a taxpayer: after you get cleared through the office go and OBSERVE. You will come away with a far different perspective than you have by just pontificating on what is “wrong” with the schools!

By jim d

March 12, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Tater,

Don’t ya just love bloggers that resort to name calling and refuse to answer a direct question, especially when caught up in a lie and are unable to substantiate their claims of how excellent our last place schools are? I do, I love them dearly,—they make my day—they cause me to LOL and even ROTF at times.

By Tater

March 12, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Steve, Steve, Steve I’m impressed that you even looked that up.. Must have used JustMe’s Google educational program. Can you dispute anything he says or what I have stated? Just don’t use this states DOE data, you will certainly be dissapointed.

jim d

According to JustMe we are one in the same!, check out her postings..

She can’t answer a direct question (which I asked many times) because she doesn’t want to face the truth that government schools are not the answer to our education system today. Clayton County is a PERFECT example of complete chaos and lack of leadership.

It does give me a laugh and then sigh. Do these government employees think that they are the answer to our children’s future?

Sad and pathetic…

By HSParent&Faculty

March 12, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

OldPhysics AMEN to your 9:02 pm post on 3/11! If parents would quit suing school systems (and schools systems would quit making decisions based on being afraid to be sued), and the federal and state governments would quit creating unfunded mandates, our costs could go down.

I would bet that the person making $114K for ISS is someone the school system is afraid to fire - or they’re close to retirement and the system figures it’s not worth the trouble to start the 3-year process to get rid of an incompetent teacher! So they could have 2 teachers and a parapro for the same salary cost, but that person stays and demoralizes the entire school. True story: a principal has a serious illness so arrangements are made to bring in another administrator to help the school. The “help” does nothing but wander the school looking for classes having snacks (elementary school) and sleeping in her office. Everybody groans because she has a doctorate so you know she’s paid big $, but thinks it’s probably her last year, so….Three years later, someone’s sharing the story and a high school student pipes up, “Oh, that’s the AP at my middle school last year. She just sat in her office and slept all the time.” Money-saving tip: Let a few incompetent employees sue, win the cases, and take that threat off the table!

By HSParent&Faculty

March 12, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

On the homeschool issue: I know three people who are tremendously successful in homeschooling their children. All 3 happen to live in areas where the public education offerings are very weak, so options are limited. My niece, in fact, is homeschooled, and my sister-in-law (who teaches online for a major university) has found the depth and breadth of ignorance (and closed mindedness) in most of the homeschooling parents in her area astounding. [They also tried private school, and were happy in kindergarten, but the first grade teacher was horrendous.] My brother says they will probably move, however, before my niece is high school age so that she can benefit from the offerings of a strong high school program (public or private).

By Tater

March 12, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

HSParent&Faculty

Thank you for sharing your insightful comments.. It’s nice to know that there are still people who believe that parents can make the right choices regarding homeschooling or even moving to another district to ensure that their children have a great education.

Our children are our future. To trust them in the hands of government is only a receipe for disaster. Other than the military (forget the politics of the war) there is nothing the fed’s do right either.

By jim d

March 12, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

Well tater,

if’n wees one n da saym gues’n of us auta by a biger reclinr an an xtra 6 pak. :-)

By John Konop

March 12, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

We need a new direction in high school education, away from the heavy handed, one-size-fits-all No Child Left Behind system that has failed students and strained tax payers.

We need Governor Perdue and Lieutenant Governor Cagle to step up and lead, instead of rubber-stamping failed gimmick programs like Kathy Cox’s Math 123—we need real solutions.

More Choice, Not Less

Why not coordinate the current university, junior college system, certificate programs, and technical colleges with our high schools? Georgia’s only nationally-ranked high school academic program—the math program used in Cherokee, Cobb, and Fulton counties—currently coordinates its advanced math program with local colleges. Why not expand the concept to all high schools, instead of eliminating it, as Kathy Cox has proposed?

How to Expand

Beginning in the 11th grade, public high schools could coordinate curriculums with local universities, junior colleges, certificate programs, and technical colleges to give kids a chance to pursue job training or advanced academics. This would not only save tax-payer money, it would match students with their best opportunities to become productive tax payers after high school. Also, graduates that earn vocational certificates could still expand their education down the road. For example, a nurse’s aide could train to become a nurse. University-track students would be eligible to have their junior and senior year course work coordinated with a university system, either on campus or via the internet. This would both challenge Georgia students and give them a leg-up when competing with students from other states. This idea has already been proven effective in Cherokee county’s advanced math program—which is nationally ranked.

Sonny and Casey

Please take the lead by giving Georgia counties the option to transform their public school districts into charter school districts and by helping facilitate the flow of funds between high schools and the higher education systems so we can implement this solution. We need you to take a leadership role in reforming our education system so it better invests in our children’s future while saving tax-payer’s money. Please contact Sonny, Casey, your local principal, and local school board to demand that they give your children the academic and vocational choices they deserve.

Sonny Perdue can be reached at 404-656-1776 or click here

Casey Cagle can be reached at (404) 656-5030 or click here 770 342 9750

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/sonny-casey-please-help

By denise

March 13, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

My children will begin private school next year. My oldest went to Kindergarten and first grade in public school. IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is this decision a reflection on the teachers or administrators at her school. They are wonderful and they try in vain to teach children self sufficiency, morality, responsibility, etc. These teachers are my friends at church, civic clubs,etc. I have no doubt whatsoever that they can effectively teach my children save ONE factor. That factor is OTHER CHILDREN AND THEIR ROGUE PARENTS. I have never seen such amoral, pathetic excuse makers in all my life. They have no home stability, no moral foundation, no job, and yet they blame the teacher for every shortcoming their children have. I don’t want my children to grow up being naive and thinking that everyone is like them. BUT, I am more concerned about my daughters growing up thinking “ho” is an acceptable term. I don’t want them thinking the government is responsible for their happiness and success. Total lack of morality, initiative and self respect among students and parents influenced me to pull my kids from public school- not the teachers!

By catlady

March 13, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

Ah, but Denise, the teachers are supposed to FIX those kids and their parents! “Faster than a rolling o, stronger than silent e, able to leap capital T in a single bound….” : P