Get Schooled

By Mara

February 26, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

Talk about going overboard. There should be a balance with discipline. I’m not opposed to spanking, etc., but some people take it to the extreme.

When i was in school, my parents did reward us for good grades, but nothing extravagant. We would get money we didn’t otherwise have to earn through chores for something like a new movie, or a bowling night.

By poplin6302

February 26, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Hey Laura — This is Theresa Giarrusso writing from the MOMania blog. I wanted to let your readers know we were talking about something similar to this yesterday on the mom blog. I had read a book about kids who work so hard to please their parents that they don’t how to please themselves. They seem great on the outside — good grades, leaders at the school but on the inside they are empty. The book was called “The Price of Privilege: How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids,” by psychologist Madeline Levine. The book talks about kids learning to motivate themselves and do things out of pride or pleasure instead of for reward. There is a summary of the book on the MOMania blog. I thought your readers might be interested.

By withheld

February 26, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

this is how i grew up. i had to get all a’s or else. i would cry when i got b’s because i knew what was coming. this isn’t all that uncommon. wake up, people. even now, as a grad student, i push myself to get all a’s.

By WFC

February 26, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Those parents seem disgusting in any case but did they beat him for the grades or for altering the report card? Is there more to the story?

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

Superior Court Judge Micheal D. Johnson should run for the GA Supreme Court. We need people like him on that bench rather than the child rapist sympathizers we have now.

I completely concur with him: “A parent has a right to discipline a child, in fact, he has an obligation to do so. But clearly this went well beyond that which is appropriate.”

I don’t mind defensive actions - if my kid tries to hit me, they’re going to learn REAL quick they don’t want to do that again - but punitive actions involving the fist over GRADES???? The guy’s heart is in the right place - encouraging good grades, using pain if necessary - but he CLEARLY went too far in using the fist.

By JJ

February 26, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

I would NEVER EVER put that kind of pressure on my child.

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

WFC:

You have a point. My parents would get upset about ANY kind of bad note from school - grades, discipline, whatever - but if I tried to hide it or lie about it…. MUCH worse when they discovered.

I still hold that the fist was too much regardless.

See, I’m not the heartless SOB that some of y’all think I am!

By sharon

February 26, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

JJ I would never put that kind of pressure on my child either. However, I’ve always told my children no C’s are allowed. My daughter got her first C in the 8th grade. I didn’t punch, beat or put marks on her.

By FCM

February 26, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

My children know that all I ever expect for them to do is their best…When I was in HS the absolute best I could do in Algebra II was a ‘D’…I had tutoring, the teacher gave me extra instruction at lunch, once we ‘graded’ the homework he had me rework the problems so I could determine where I went wrong in my ‘cipering…My father (a mathematics wizard) could not understand why my grades were so bad in this class….He did not use these methods (they are clearly abuse) but he did ground me over test grades etc….My teacher eventually learned of this, and reached out to my parents…Once my parents understood I was doing my best the eased up….my grades did not improve (and Math is still a weak area for me)…however the lesson I learned (to always give it my all/best no matter the outcome)stayed with me.

Now, when my children come home with the less than expected grade, I ask “Was this your best?” Sometimes the answer is “Yes.” In which case we rework everything and try to see where the errors occur. If it is “No” then I tell them that I expect they will do their best next time and we rework everything to show we could do better. They have come to understand that not doing their best means that they have failed themselves…not me.

By Leen

February 26, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

The child went to the teacher, upset and frightened. Why didn’t the teacher call the parents, or get a school counselor involved? The parents are jerks, but in the case the teacher dropped the ball, especially when the child claimed to be suicidal. It should have been obvious that there was a problem at home.

By Jesse's Girl

February 26, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

I think it is most important to let your child know that their best is expected at all times. Both of our girls get all A’s on their report cards. But they have brought home hideous test scores before. Those grades were not punished because they studies their butts off…they just had a bad day of it. They gave it their best and it didn’t work out. Little life lessons. I’d rather my kids bring home B’s and C’s as a result of trying their very best and giving 110% than bringing home A’s because they are kiling themselves out of fear of failure and out of fear of us.

By Lynda Funderburke

February 26, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

My kids know that ALL I want from them is THE BEST THEY CAN DO! Not what I think they can do, but what THEY think they can do. I don’t care if its all D. If that is all you think you can do then fine,but I KNOW DIFFERENT!!!!! Like I tell them school is FREE right now, TAKE IT FOR ALL YOU CAN GET. Later you may not be able to get it.

We need to go back to REALLY TEACHING our kids. You know READING, WRITING,MATH,HOW TO SAY WORDS THE RIGHT WAY. I miss the LEARNING days.

By Liz

February 26, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

I have a question. If your child is doing their best to try to comprehend and conquer a problem class and they still don’t understand or do as well as you want, you think pain is the answer?

I feel that if my child is misbehaving in school, yes, punishment is expected. But what if, like FCM, a subject is just difficult for the student?

My children are always well behaved in school and do their absolute best. Once in a while, they don’t do as well as I thought they should, but I know that they did the best they could. I dont’ punish them…I encourage them to try harder, to study harder and to seek help or tutoring.

I don’t believe that pain is the answer to anything.

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Given enough pain, ANYTHING can be mastered by ANYONE.

I don’t accept the ‘I’m just not good at this’ excuse. I didn’t do so well in Chemistry and Calculus. But guess what? There wasn’t a sufficiently painful motivation either. As long as I made a C in the class, I moved on, and if I didn’t make a C I could just retake the class. In any case, neither class was significant in my long term goals, so there was ZERO pain involved.

Now flip that situation, and imagine I want to be on the cutting edge of drug design, particularly using computers to achieve it. In which case a STRONG knowledge of both Chem and Calc would be ESSENTIAL. THEN, there is sufficient pain involved to make me learn both subjects.

Pain is essential. The pain doesn’t have to be physical, nor does it even have to be external. But it MUST be present. Early in life, parents must supply the pain. Once kids begin internalizing it, parents can back off.

By Bobby

February 26, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

My mother would ground me for anything less than an A, even though my occasional B’s were in English which was my weakest subject. In my mind that was wrong.

With my daughter who is in grade school, we don’t say anything about the grades themselves, but look for downward or upward trends and deal with them as necessary. For instance, her handwriting grades last year were C’s, and we got onto her about them, because it was due to laziness. She has since improved upon it. But we let things like math go with lower grades, because it is one of her weaker subjects.

It’s all subjective to the subject, and historically how she’s done in them.

By Barb

February 26, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

I’m middle-aged & when I was a kid, that sort of thing (beating a child with fists for getting sub-standard grades) was actually considered normal discipline. We kids feared our parents & that was the norm..I always felt a happy medium would have been a more viable alternative

By Akima

February 26, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

I tell you what the biggest incentive for my daughter to get good grades, came about 6 months ago. She and I and her cousin were walking around million dollar homes that had just been built behind Mall of Georgia. After walking through the third house, my niece looked at me, serious as she could be, and said “Aunt Akima, I want to go home now and do some homework”. My daughter agreed!!!!!

I told them both that if this is what it took for them to buckle down, I would take them to look at expensive houses every Saturday!!! (I wish I had done this when they were smaller)…..

The thing with these two girls is they want all the fancy stuff in this world, the Coach purses, the expensive cars, etc., and they know it is not going to be given to them, they have to work very hard and EARN it!!!

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

Bobby:

Don’t let her ‘get by’. Make her THRIVE.

Put the external motivation - pain - on forcing her to improve her ‘weak areas to be just as strong as her ‘strong’ areas.

Only then can she be a force to be reckoned with.

Look at it this way: On the cutting edge of Spec Ops, everyone is trained to do everyone else’s job just as well as they do their own. There is NO weak link, and if one person is eliminated, any remaining member of the team can EASILY fulfill the function of the person they lost.

You are crippling your daughter by allowing her to have a ‘weak’ area.

By catlady

February 26, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

Leen, the child may have gone to the teacher. If so, the teacher MAY have reported it to the counselor, asst. principal, or whoever the designated person was. That person MAY have reported it to the social worker. And the social worker MAY have reported it to DFACS. WE WILL NEVER KNOW, BECAUSE TEACHERS NEVER ARE TOLD IF ANYTHING HAPPENS FROM A REFERRAL.

The thought of what this kid went through makes me sick. However, one positive: His parents were paying attention! And they expected him to be accountable for his actions! That is the case very rarely in my school. Now, if they could learn how to use their interest and their sense of responsibility and accountability in the right way…… I notice apparently they did not blame the teacher for his less than A grades, nor did they make excuses for him.

I am NOT defending abuse. But the boy has a chance because his school work has not been ignored. Perhaps he has internalized the drive to do well. If so, it will help him as he grows up.

By FCM

February 26, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Jeff…you can get people to do what you (want get the desired result) through pain….your right it will work. However, is it truly the right way to do it? The God we were discussing on the Book Page….he could force us all to believe, to be better people etc….He could through pain…Before you have children, please reread about that Heavenly Father you love, and remember we are called to look to Him as parents on how to deal with our own children…..(I highly recommend you look at the story of Jonah for inspirtation——God kept saying he would punish, but they changed without the ‘pain’ then Jonah got Ticked). Additionally, (and I have been speaking to you for quite some time all over the blogs here) PLEASE go see someone about the anger in you….

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

FCM:

Salvation is ALL about pain.

The Pain Christ endured, or the pain you will endure in Hell if you reject Him.

Furthermore, God Himself instituted the principle of humans learning best through pain. Man lived in a pain-free environment in Eden, and yet chose to reject it. God then essentially said “You wouldn’t listen to me, now you will learn through pain.” and gave us the existence we know now where pain is the ultimate teacher.

The Pain Principle holds.

By JustMe

February 26, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Motivation is a strange thing. There is extrinsic (from parents, etc.) and there is intrinsic (from within oneself).

People are different and are motivated by different things. As a parent, you should find out what will movtivate your child. Of course, there are laws and common practices that you should abide by (and not go to extreme).

Did those parents go to the extreme? Of course they did.

My mother would simply give me the “look” of disappointment - that was enough for me. Also, I had enough intrinsic motivation to do well in school - I realized at a young age that doing well in school is connected to getting into a good college that is connected to getting a good job that is connected to making a good salary that is connected to living well.

By Liz

February 26, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

I can only hope that Jeff isn’t able to inflict his brand of salvation on any of my children.

The thing that bothers me about Jeff is that he is just going to keep that way of thinking going by doing this to his children and they to theirs and so forth.

Very, very sad.

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Liz:

And guess what? When trouble comes and your kids break down and cry like babies, my kids will be the ones facing the trouble head on and overcoming it.

The beauty of parent-inflicted pain is that the parent is able to dial in the exact amount needed to stress, yet not break, the kid. This then acts almost exactly like a vaccine does: because the kid now knows how to handle more and more pain, when a catastrophe happens that the parent can’t control/prevent, the kid is still able to survive and even thrive.

A kid who has never been properly taught how to handle even minimal amounts of pain will simply break down and quite possibly be killed.

On second thought, go ahead and teach your kids to live in a pain free world. Less competition for my kids when calamity strikes.

By HB

February 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Catlady, I know you weren’t defending abuse, but I feel a need to point out that “paying attention” in this case does not likely imply interest or good intentions. Both physically and emotionally abusive people tend to pay close attention to their victims, not because they are looking out for them, but because they are 1) very controlling and 2) looking for a “excuse” to abuse — a B on a kid’s report card, a wife’s imperfectly organized kitchen shelf, etc. The abuser then may even play the victim: “Why do you keep doing things that make me angry?” Judging by the child’s extreme fear to the point of shaking before going home, I doubt this was the first time he had been severely punished for a relatively small misstep. Thank goodness he was removed from that home.

By Liz

February 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

I never said my children didn’t experience pain. I simply said I wasn’t the one to inflict the pain. My kids are very strong; they’ve dealt with a number of outside problems and survived quite well. I have taught them to be independent and how to deal with situations so that they will be able to survive. I just didn’t do it using any pain.

I have been a single mother for 10 years and have numerous notes and letters from past and present teachers about how mature and well adjusted my children are. I have all the faith in the world that my kids will thrive and survive this world and any problems they may encounter on their journey.

By Leen

February 26, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

The article quotes the teacher as saying that the boy was shaking and almost hysterical. Nowhere does it say that a referral was made to the administration. Now the parents are in jail (deservedly so), but I think the school system let this child down by not doing anything to diffuse his obvious terror of his parents.
Oh, and Jeff, I can only hope your neighbors keep DFCS on speed-dial when you actually have kids.

By V for Vendetta

February 26, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

I know that Jeff is sometimes not the most delicate flower in the world, and I don’t always agree with him, but in this case I think he has a point. I certainly don’t condone the pure beating that the kid received in this case, but perhaps if kids today were a little more fearful of their parents, things would be a bit better.

I was SCARED of my father when I was a kid. That doesn’t mean he didn’t love me, or that he wasn’t fun and jovial when we were having a good time, but I knew what was expected of me. At ALL times, I knew what was expected of me, and that anything less than my best was failure.

Don’t give me this sissy whining about kids putting too much pressure on themselves. Don’t tell me that they can’t handle it. That’s a load of crap. There are absolutely ZERO consequences for the vast majority of kids out there. Case in point:

A girl in my class took home a failing report card last week. I asked her when she returned yesterday if the weekend had been an unpleasant one. She said no. I asked her why, and she told me it was because she was honest with her parents, and she was only failing one class (mine).

I said ONLY? She said responded in the affirmative. I then proceeded to tell her that if I had ever been failing ONLY one class my parents would have stripped my room of all excess, leaving me with a bed and four walls and my books. I could have everything back when I achieved up to my potential.

For all you excuse-making pansies out there — yes, this girl is capable of passing. She could get a B if she wanted to!

Spare the rod, spoil the child, folks. Jeff ain’t too far off base in this case. He might be a blunt, but he’s mostly correct. Not every kid needs the fear of the almighty put into them, but some do. As a formerly diagnosed ADHD hellion, I needed it. It’s why I’ve been so succesful and live my life free of any of the crutches (drugs) others use for the same “condition.” But that’s a story for another day …

By Whatever

February 26, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

I see I’m not the only one who really hopes Jeff is sterile.

By FCM

February 26, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

jeff—I do not plan to switch this to a theological discussion….I will only state my opinion that God eventually decided the pain method wasn’t best….sent his Son to endure the greatest and last pain (which of course inflicts intrinsic pain on the believers knowing its their sin that crucified) so that the rest of us would live with the Grace and Peace (non pain).

By catlady

February 26, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

HB, you are right. In fact, the parents may use this kid as the whipping boy and displace anger and frustration on him for every problem that comes along. (Faucet breaks when dad is using it—yep, it is the boy’s fault for “making” his dad so mad he twisted the handle too hard, etc)

However, I would like to see more people expecting more from their children. More parents noticing that the report card seems to be altered (had this happened before. Is the kid a professional liar?) Parents noticing that little Jimmy has brought home an Ipod from school and says it was “given” to him. etc.

I am always skeptical of writeups in the paper because of omissions (like, was DFACS alerted?)

At my school parents are supposed to sign their child’s agenda every day. I have the “duty” of standing out front as kids are being dropped off by their parents. You would not believe how often (20 or more times a day) I see parents stopping, kissing their child goodby, and—oh—signing the agenda as the child scrambles out of the car. Now, if there were an important note there, I can assure you it won’t be noticed! And the child, and agenda, were at the house all the evening and night before, but checking the agenda IS NOT IMPORTANT.

We have a child whose parents have been asked to come to school and discuss his work and increasingly thug-like behavior since school began. They have been allowed to set the appointment day and time. They don’t come. Now they have refused to come (openly). And I am told THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO! Is this right? Can’t we go to DFACS or the Juvenile Court Judge, before the kid breaks the law.

This boy could use parents who notice and are willing to hold him accountable. As it is, his classmates and teacher pay the price, and the rest of us will when he is eventally unemployable and in jail.

By leen

February 26, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

I guess I must be one of those “pansy parents”. My kids do well in school, and are genuinely nice people, If they get a “B” because they are spending too much time at baseball or football practice, at least I know they are getting some exercise, and enjoying their teenage years. The only standard they are held to is the one they care deeply about. If they lose the good student discount on their car insurance, they have to pay it. The difference is only about $100.00/year, but we never told them that. I think they believe it’s more like a $1000. We never saw any reason to enlighten them.

By DB

February 26, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Learning and education is such a self-driven process — you can lead a student to a book, but you can’t make him learn. Given that, I am always sad when parents bribe their kids to get good grades. They are robbing them of self-esteem, of a sense of accomplishment, and making the rewards outer-directed instead of fostering and encouraging an inner sense of self-worth and self-satisfaction. If a kid is only making good grades to please their parents, then something has gone badly wrong.

I was never a parent who went nuts with a “B”, or even a “C” — as long as I knew that the grade represented the child’s best reasonable effort. I do not require a child to spend four hours a night on homework to make the difference between an 89 and a 91. And I NEVER, EVER paid for grades. How demeaning! Your best effort is expected, and expected behavior, like making your bed or cleaning up the bathroom after you’ve finished, is NOT rewarded, it’s the price we pay for living on this planet, and doing the best with the brain that God gave you.

The parents in the story above are parents who are taking FAR too much ownership of their children’s lives and issues. If a kid makes a “B” or even a “C”, then the CHILD is the one that suffers the consequences of that behavior — it shouldn’t be the parent agonizing over it. As long as parents and children are clear what the consequences are — i.e., attending a third-tier state school as opposed to a first-tier nationally ranked school for college, or even losing the the privilege of playing a sport in high school — then the parents need to BUTT OUT. Look at it this way: Kids who make “B”s and “C”s are probably not going to do that well in a top-rated university setting, anyway — it is a kindness to everyone (if not ego-enhancing) to realize that early on and not set up outrageous expectations.

By SET

February 26, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

Teachers encounter degenerate parents and degenerate families. That goes with the job. Teachers need to have a working familiarity with 911, the local Sex Crimes Unit, Child Protection Services (for the less acute problems). Turn them in if there is a problem with violence and child cruelty.

I don’t think rewarding high function students is a problem when schools or parents do it. I don’t care whether it’s rewarding by promotion to a higher grade or cash or a trip to wherever. Like has rewards and punishments depending on performance. How far can you push kids before it’s too much? Well, we have criminal codes in most states and that’s the law. If Mommy wants to give baby a Mini Cooper for good grades, more power to them. At least the car wasn’t handed over for nothing.

By jim d

February 26, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

ROTFLMFAO,

Jeff thanks for the laughs.

Your kids, god forbid you ever have any, will be a f’d up as you are if you actually practice even half of which you preach.

You’ve been known to say parents can’t tell teachers anything because they haven’t been in their shoes. Well my friend the same applies to teachers without children. Until you have your own just don’t go there. And once you do—Well—— just don’t go there!

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

jim d:

I’ve had FAR more practice employing MY methods than any one of you parents has had employing yours.

And guess what?

I’ve been proven right EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Pain truly is the best teacher.

By jim d

February 26, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Sit still little ones

Bet a few of you agree with these tactics too.

By jim d

February 26, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Wrong—I’ve kids older than you.

Besides, I’ve no doubt the pain “T” will inflict on you for messing with your future children will indeed teach you a thing or two. :-)

By degenerate parent that buys the kids cars

February 26, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

“Pain truly is the best teacher”

“I’ve been proven right EVERY SINGLE TIME”

How’s that work Jeff? I’m not too sure I’ve ever seen pain buy love, respect or trust.

By Jeff

February 26, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

jim:

You’ve worked with 2.

I’ve worked with closer to 2 THOUSAND.

And of those two thousand, I’ve YET to encounter one that didn’t respond to pain.

T won’t stop me from doing what is neccessary to teach our kids. The only thing she will do is pass on (hopefully) her eternal optimism while at the same time I prepare them to deal with life when things get messy.

By degenerate parent that buys the kids cars

February 26, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You are keeping me laughing so hard i can barely type.

I’ve been proven right EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Son, you have seldom been “right” on this blog!

By FCM

February 26, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

jim d—-unfortunatley the schools do expect children to sit for long time frames…and most employ the stop light method of behavior charting mentioned in the article.

Increasingly I have had teachers tell me what they think I should use as punitive damages (at home) to school infractions….I do NOT think the punitive damages this blog was started with are acceptable….however, I do not appreciate a teacher telling me to take away computer or tv time…if I want to do that I will….I do not need or desire a teacher telling me how to run my house…anymore than they want me to spell out exactly what I see wrong with their classroom habits.

By Liz

February 26, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine a public school that would agree with Jeff’s “painful” tactics. If I had children in his classroom I know for certain that I would be first in line to complain. Pain is not the answer. Loving guidance is the only way. My children respect me, love me and trust me.

Jeff, I’m certain that your way won’t get you anything but fear from your children. For that, I feel sorry for them.

By jim d

February 26, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

Riiight Jeff,

All us old married guy’s understand what yer gonna do. Only two things in life you truly need to understand son. Women got half the worlds money and all of the —— (well you figure it out son)

By jim d

February 26, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

uhm jeff? 2?

LOL, —- You have no idea! some of us actually volunteer to spend a lot more time with more kids than teachers do and deal just a wee a bit with troubled kids as well.

Trust and faith work—pain don’t! take it from one who knows.

By Teacher, Too

February 26, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

I’ve had plenty of parents tell my how to run my classroom. It’s comes with the profession. I don’t take offense, I just tell the parents that while they are welcome their opinion, I respectfully disagree. And, I don’t back down. If I’ve done my job correctly and covered my behind, then I will be supported by my admins.

Now, I have had plenty of parents who come to me and say, “I don’t know what to do. I’ve tried everything. What do you suggest?” When asked for my opinion, I will give it. However, I’ve found that they really don’t want to correct the problems because that requires time and effort, with some inconvenience, on their part. They don’t want to clean out the kid’s room of all the “fun” stuff- computer, games, tv, cell phone. They don’t want to take away the car- oh no, can’t do that! SO, nothing really changes and I’ve wasted my time.

Punished for grades? I wasn’t the best student, but I was always honest about my grades. My parents wanted me to take the easier classes, but I wanted to take the more difficult ones. I knew I could do the work-and while I didn’t get all A’s, I did mostly get all A’s and B’s- and I know that I worked hard and earned my grades honestly. What more can you expect from a kid?

By FCM

February 26, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Teacher too—-I was raised by teachers ….I do NOT tell them my children’s teachers how to run their class….I have been asked what do I suggest they do about ‘x’ and often hear “we cannot do that…’ or ‘no, that is not something I think we should try…’ well then I can’t help you much….Additionally, I do solicit (and use) the teacher’s advice when I want it…..I suppose it’s a 2 edged sword. I do feel that the teacher and I have to be a team…and you pointed out “If I’ve done my job correctly and covered my behind, then I will be supported by my admins.” Unfortunately we parents often feel left in the cold…there is no support, no matter how we cover our behinds…first the child is likely to rip the covering off (and of course its the parenting to blame)…second, the school really doesn’t want much more than to have zombies in class….we do not teach the kids to think anymore…we do not teach them to discern, or question….we teach them to sit still, listen and follow directions…we will have a nation of zombies in no time.

By Mr. H Smith

February 26, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

Well I am a student and i get no encouragement to make good grades nor am i pressured; it is just something that is expected. I know plenty of people who are satiisfied with B’s or C’s so I think it was fairly harsh for the parents to beat the child because he did not make all A’s.

By V for Vendetta

February 26, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this

Great, this is what I get for saying I can see what Jeff is saying …

Is it too late to retract my statements? :-)

By LM

February 26, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

The question in this blog was “How far can you push kids to do well in school before it gets to be too much?” Certainly, pain/physical abuse/etc. is too much, and is an extreme response for a grade issue (or any other issue, really).

Honestly, while there are some nut cases out there who may whip or beat their child for not bringing home good grades, there are way too many parents out there who do not push their kids to excel at all. I think that, on the whole, parental expectations for their children may be at an all-time low.

I have been teaching for ten years, and I have seen expectations for kids slipping steadily each year - from parents, from the kids themselves, from teachers - even my own expections have slipped some! We don’t need to worry about expecting too much from our kids as much as we need to worry about expecting TOO LITTLE.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this

LM,

Pushing at all will never result in childrens success.

Human nature precludes any success if one holds Evolutionary Psychology to have any merit. Pushing merely causes survival instincts to kick in. Encouragement on the other hand can have a profound impact on a childs willingness to apply themselves.

Evolutionary Psychology argues that human beings are adapted to a life very different to the one we live. The argument runs that our ancestors lived as hunter gatherers on the savannahs of Africa, and it is under these conditions that we evolved into what we are today. Thus we can best understand the human mind, our predispositions and preferences in terms of the traits those early humans needed to survive. According to the evolutionary psychologists many of modern human’s psychological problems can be explained in this way. I would dare venture a guess that these traits are even more prevelent in children that have yet to mature morally to fit into societies mold of acceptable behavior.

By FCM

February 27, 2008 7:57 AM | Link to this

LM—I do think that a spanking (pain) is justified for somethings…it is not the same as whipping/beating a kid…It can teach a small child very quickly not to run in the street. So to say, no pain ever…but Jeff is not just talking a stinging swat on the backside (what my mom always called an attention getter)……nobody gets killed from running into a “C” on test like that do from running in front of a car. (Unless they suffer extreme abuse like in the case of the kid in the blog). The punishment should always fit the crime. I do not think a spanking is justified for a low grade…..treat the issue not the symptom.

I used to agree w/ Ruth Gresham that all parents should take a dog obdience course….Now I think they should take the dog obdience course and some basic law, so they have an idea of what crime/punishment actually should look like.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this

FCM,

unless I missed something in the article the child was not beaten for the grade. it was the deception of changing the grade on the report card that brought down the wrath of his parents.

I really think the question that should be asked is why the child felt that was necessary to change the grade. Again I feel the answer is simply an inherent instinct of survival that pre-dates public education by just a few years.

To reitterate—Inflicted Pain is never the solution to getting a child to comply with societal demands.

i would also point out that more than aa few people missed (or ignored) the warning signs that this child was in an abusive situation. The fact that the child openy feared for his safety would indicate this wasn’t a first time offense by the parents. The signs indicating this should have been evident to anyone trained to detect them. (and required by law to report them) Either The teacher failed in this instance to report the incident or the school system failed to notify DFACS.

The thing is that physical evidence is not required to file a report. The emotional breakdown and the childs reported comments regarding being fearful should have triggered a warning to the adult upon which she should have acted.

By Jeff

February 27, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

jim:

Inflicted pain is ALWAYS the way to get a child - or ANYONE - to comply with societal demands.

Does the pain always have to be physical? NO

But it MUST be present, or the person will NOT change their ways.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Dear friend, I appeal to your sense of reason. Please consider the pain you may be subjected to in the future for child abuse and change your views on this issue.

Should you be too stubborn to consider this—I’m ok with it and will just wait to see your name appear on a story like this one.

Best of luck!

By WFC

February 27, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Retired teacher and administrator after 31 years here. I’ve worked to instill in my son (currently a junior at Northview) that YOU GET WHAT YOU WORK FOR.

My son Beau sees what I (and his mom) have achieved over the years and he knows what he must do to have comparable opportunities. I’ve educated him as to my situation and what he must do to live the life we do. No beating required.

Beau knows that he will get my nice home in Riverwalk, my Mercedes convertible, and about $300,000 in cash IF AND ONLY IF he “gets with the program.” He also knows that I’m a hard-nosed cuss who is quite willing to leave my estate to a worthy charity if he doesn’t. I’m lucky that my son is smart and can figure out on which side of the bread his is buttered. I don’t know what you do with stupid kids.

By catlady

February 27, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

T2, I have had parents give me advice before. I always invite them to class, to see for themselves. When they DO come, which has been rare, their attitudes and opinions have changed. Radically.

I have made suggestions for at home in this fashion: Does Johnny have any regular responsibilities at home? What are the consequences for not doing them? Well, what I have seen is that students who have responsibilities at home are more likely to take a responsible attitude at school. Can you think of anything Johnny can contribute to the family, something that you don’t pay him for but that the family relies on him to do (like they do on you to cook supper?) For example, when my children were little they had to set the table. We could not eat if the table was not set. They had to clear the table. There was no way to have the next meal without the table having been cleared fromt the previous meal, etc. Like: What does Johnny do with his free time? What are his preferred activities? He is ignoring the necessary activities (school work) in favor of his preferred activities. How can we help him get back on track.

Now, I admit many parents are unwilling or too lazy or they just don’t agree that their child needs to face the real world. I can’t do anything about that. But as the teacher, I have to try to tune them in to what is expected at school, how their child is or isn’t meeting the expectations, what the ramifications are, and what might help. Because, in the end, most parents really DO want their child to succeed, graduate, get a job, and MOVE OUT!

It may help that I have been doing this for so long, but these things worked even when I was a very young teacher (I had just turned 21 when I started, and was much younger than most of my kindergarteners’ parents). I have always pointed out to them how hard it is to make a living “nowadays”, and we talk about how much harder it is for students, too (in SOME ways it is) so we have to do all we can to prepare them.

I see very very few kids who are pushed too hard, and fewer every year.

By catlady

February 27, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

I would also comment that there have been children in the past who cried wolf: who alleged beating, mistreatment, etc. and tried to justify their lies. I am NOT saying this child was one of them—the marks from the beating he suffered due to the altered grade contradicts this—but it has happened before. Just remember, like rape, a person can make an allegation, go through theatrics, etc, and it be false. Not usually, but it CAN happen.

By HB

February 27, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Either The teacher failed in this instance to report the incident or the school system failed to notify DFACS.

Actually, from the article, we don’t know that no report was filed. Reports take time. According to the article, the student expressed fear to his teacher, went home, was beaten, fled the home, and returned to school. Sounds like things went down pretty fast. The teacher and school may very well have filed a report that day, but I can’t imagine DFACS getting to the house that quickly. Most likely, only a 911 call could have prevented this, and possibly not even that. We don’t know if the teacher or school had any idea that something might be wrong before that afternoon. It’s important that the school’s actions (and DFAC’s, if they were called) be investigated, but based on the article alone, there’s no reason to conclude that the teacher or school did not take appropriate action. Sadly, following procedure often is not enough.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

HB,

You are correct. That we don’t know if the school took immediate action. From the article we can assume they did when the child returned beaten and bruised, but the point remains this was probably not an isolated incident and anyone trained in detecting abuse might shoulda noticed before it got this far.

I don’t know about teachers, but some of the organizations I am familar with, that work with children, require extensive youth protection training for the adults.

By HB

February 27, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

I do hope that teacher have such training, jim d, and questions should certainly be asked about how the school and teachers handled things. Someone should definitely check to see that teachers are adequately trained as of course no one wants to see something like this happen again.

I’m just very hesitant to place blame on the school/teacher based on what little we know. First, the scared child that afternoon very well could have been the schools first clue that something was amiss. That’s not to say this was the first time the child was abused — I agree with you that something, if not so extreme, had likely happened before — but there may not have been red flags that teachers could see. We don’t even know how well teachers knew the student. Had he been at the school all year, or moved in recently? Did this teacher have him in classes for much of the day, or just a short class period? Did he demonstrate behavioral problems that could indicate abuse? He was excelling academically (all A’s, but for 1 B) — probably a well-behaved, overall good student.

My guess is that the named teacher and the school’s administrators are heartbroken that this happened to their student, and I think we should be careful about judging their actions or making accusations when we really don’t know what happened. The only clear blame here lies with the parents convicted of this horrendous act.

By catlady

February 27, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Teachers sit through mandated training on reporting this every year. Every year. With a movie, even.

I have seen it happen that a child makes an allegation like this AS THE BUSES are LOADING. Now, what to do? Pull the child out? Call a social worker? There is a chain of reportingon this. (Do you know how long it takes to get someone there?) Meanwhile the parents are waiting at home, wondering why their child did not get off the bus….

We really have no info on what the school did or did not do. And we probably never will, with the silence of DFACS. But, rest assured, teachers are trained as to what to do. We are only allowed to report it, and then only to certain officials. Teachers take this very seriously, for the child’s sake as well as our own.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

HB,

Indeed the fault for this tragedy belongs with the parents. I just prefer matters like this be avoided. I was not attempting to lay blame on the teacher or the school, merely questioning if this might have been avoided had someone noticed a few warning signs such as withdrawal from family and friends -sleeplessness-irrational fears -depression-anxiety—anger-change in weight or an apparent low self-esteem

These are but a few signs that can point to abuse. If a child has a couple of these signs, it does not necessarily mean that a child is being abused. Also, all abused children do not exhibit these signs.

I think the best way to help an abused child is to prevent it from happening, by educating oneself and watching for the signs.

Reporting child abuse can be a sticky situation as well and most people would understandably prefer to stay out of it, but for a child’s sake, it is better to be safe than sorry.

As for actually reporting suspected abuse; most of the time you can call in you suspicion to DFACS without even leaving your name.

By jim d

February 27, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

just for the record folks,

Georgia Website:

Click on the website above for information on reporting or call Childhelp® (800-422-4453) for assistance

By catlady

February 27, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

Teachers have a person to report to. We are told NEVEr to call DFACS ourselves (on pain of—what—insubordination? Lunchroom duty?)

If I am out in my car and I see something happening I guess I can call DFACS or the law. I have called the police once when I saw a father losing it in the parking lot, beating, screaming, punching, throwing his kid. Mall security got there quick.

By Lee

February 27, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

While there are some cases where a parent crosses the line in trying to push a kid to get good grades, I’m willing to wager that far more abuse is meted out at your local ballfield. Some of the antics I’ve witnessed over the years are sickening.

Speaking of wagers, anybody want to get a pool going on how Jeff’s kids would turn out? Here are a few categories:

• Turned out great. No problems.

• Basketcase.

• F*#&@$g nuts.

• On Prozac at age two.

• Ran away and raised by possums.

• Ends up in a bell tower with a deer rifle.

By jim d

February 28, 2008 7:38 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I wouldn’t touch that wager. kids react differently to different pressures. Some act out and some even become suicidal. Either way it is a no win situation.

By Jeff

February 28, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I don’t remember WHICH case it was, but I do remember running across this statement by a school shooter back when I was doing research into that topic quite heavily:

“I just wanted someone to tell me ‘NO’.”

When pain is used effectively - as I employ it -, you get a well-rounded person EVERY time.

When a kid comes up never hearing the word ‘NO’, you get either a brat or a school shooter.

You tell me which is better…

By EducatorX3

February 28, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

I was always taught to mark a statement as false when it contained the words “always,” “never,” and “every.” I think this should apply to Jeff’s statements.

Jeff, if you are talking about creating disequilibrium in order to create a need to know, then you might be at least headed in the right direction. If you are talking about physical or emotional pain, then you need to take time to rethink this idea before you return to the classroom - and certainly before you have kids of your own.

By jim d

February 28, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Now there’s a scary thought.

“Jeff—researching school shooters!”