Get Schooled

By SET

February 14, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

Exactly what is this “trust” we are talking about? Is it a belief that the subject will do what you want, or a belief that a subject will consistently follow a predictable set of standards? I have seen the term I can “trust” him to mean “I can control him”.

I was able to “trust” the school teachers and administrators I grew up with. They had people arrested on rare occasion, they expelled students right on cue - including 2 weeks before graduation, they gave failing grades to anybody that had it coming, they ignored nothing, they’d call in the parents if there was a problem. We got along and most students stayed out of trouble. Absolutely no one felt betrayed.

They never pretended to be peers or friends with the students but I remember them to this day. Funny how that works out.

By Ernest

February 14, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

SET is right on target with this. In fact, I would value ‘respect’ over trust.

Years ago I had an assignment working with military personnel from Fort Bragg. I asked an officer how does one work with an higher up that can be a real $%#%. He looked me sternly in the eye and said, “You ALWAYS respect the rank not necessarily the person.” That statement has an impact on me today. I believe educators as a whole don’t have the respect they once had. Some might say it needs to be earned but many don’t receive it in the beginning.

By V for Vendetta

February 14, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

So many people in charge of things that they have no idea about begs the question: why should we TRUST or RESPECT these people in the first place?

By Janine

February 14, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

Some students walk into a class already respecting and trusting [whatever that means] the teacher due to prior experience, and/or,as a result of what one of my colleagues describes as “home training”. Some students walk into a class with no respect for the teacher and no trust at all, probably due to the same things. For both types of student I suppose there is the potential for change.

By Tater

February 14, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

It’s about building relationships, just like in business. Once the relationship builds the trust begins.

In my experience, the private schools will support the teachers more than public schools. I’ve met many who, taking a pay cut and benefits, would rather work in the private school environment.

You need to understand Maslow’s hierarchy of needs to see why having trust in the teachers AND the administration is so important…

The trust of the teachers and administrators to do the right thing is very important. It’s also important that the teachers and administrators trust the parents and each other.

By julie

February 14, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Trust is being able to believe someone.

By jim d

February 14, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

fraid I’m one of those that you must earn both respect and trust from. Neither is automatically given based on who or what you think you are.

By GC Parent

February 14, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Great blog. As a parent, trust is everything when you are talking about interacting with those who care for your child. For me,the only way to build trust is to both listen and dialgoue, being open to challenge and being challenged, the follow up on promises made and feedback when promises are not kept, and to offer sincere apologies when mistakes have been made. And above all - honesty, in all that involves your child. It is a two way street - no way around that.

By HS Teacher Too

February 14, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Hmm. I posted something I thought was decent this morning and it never went through. So I shall try again.

In my experience, parents are often jaded by past experiences, and until a situation comes about where a teacher has an opportunity to show their character, so to speak, they are often hesitant to trust. I respect that entirely, because I am the same way (not just with administrators); and we all know that there are too many teachers who tend to act arbitrarily and/or not admit to and remedy their mistakes. Of course, when a situation presents itself where the teacher can “prove” him- or herself, then the issue is exactly what SET said – do parents (or teachers) want what is really fair/right, or do they want what they want to hear?

Here’s a hypothetical example. I grade an entire set of math tests and for some reason I mis-grade an entire problem on every single student’s test. I figure out my mistake only after I have recorded the grades and handed the tests back to the class. What can I do?

Obviously, I prefer option 4, because in today’s world option 2 is not really practical. But the thing is, sooooo many teachers take option 3. I have absolutely had this scenario happen to me, and in choosing option 4 and laughing about it – owning up, saying that I make mistakes too, let’s look at it and fix it has been “that moment” where students and parents alike have realized that I really am all about being fair; and I’ve earned their respect and trust, if I didn’t already have it. (Option 2 is the kind of that that plays to SET’s comment.)

I’m a cynic, as most readers of this blog know, and I really hesitate to trust anyone blindly these days. To borrow from the old adage that if it “happens once, shame on them; happens twice, shame on me” I really try not to let it happen twice!

As to the question of whether you can re-gain trust, I have to say yes, but that it is extraordinarily difficult. For it to really work, it takes both parties to really, truly, believe in the process. Unfortunately, I think that most people, no matter what they say, really do still hold reservations. So it can be done, but it’s difficult and probably requires the “right” outcome on subsequent multiple “issues” to win that person back.

GC Parent — dead on!

By mmm

February 14, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

Great Topic. One I have lived with as a parent trying to be an advocate for a charter school my kids attend.

Several years ago the charter school’s board had a strategic planning retreat. We kept coming up with things that seemed perfectly reasonable and logical that would help our families and school, but that we had to keep telling the facilitator would never happen because the relationship between charter schools and their district “just doesn’t work that way”.

Finally our facilitator stopped us and explained that this issue needed a name. She described it as a “lack of ability to presume goodwill” with the entity that is legally responsible for our care and nurture.

Somehow, naming it helped me to examine it rationally as a concrete issue and we realized that while we could not control the behavior of others, we can control our own. And in order to build the presumption of goodwill we were going to have to control our own rhetoric and behavior in a way that extended the presumption of good will to our district.

Slowly and consistantly we have behaved with goodwill toward them, and slowly they have thawed toward us (although we are the “exception” to the general rule that no charter is a good charter).

HB881 would not be necessary if there truly were a general “presumption of goodwill” on the part of the districts. But generally, most people don’t care enough to put out effort to “earn” the trust of others. This is why our world has so much disrespect returned for disrespect.

We should each approach every stranger with a presumption that they deserve respect because there is a spark of the divine in each living being.
I have found that many will rise to be worthy of the respect they are accorded so as to not lose the continuation of that respect. In this manner we can each change the direction of the spiral toward conflict that this world seems to be in.

Peace.

By just a teacher

February 14, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

I really like that “presumption of goodwill” bit. I think that’s what I would generally call “respect,” but a lot of people seem to think that respect is synonymous with “deference,” as if people who respect one another cannot disagree. To me, respect has to do with how we regard each other as human beings, plain and simple. I do not think respect needs to be earned, though it can certainly be lost.

But as for deference, as much as this might not be popular, I think there are some power relationships in which one party is expected to defer to the other: parent/child, boss/employee, teacher/student. Both parties should act with respect, but the power dynamic is already there. (And yes, I’m sure there are lots of examples of that power being abused. I get it. I’m talking about ideal scenarios. I also think it’s worth noting that as a public school teacher, the parents of my students are not my boss. I am accountable to my principal, the school board, and the professional standards commission. Nor are they my clients. The parents of my students are essential collaborators and partners in the task I have already been entrusted with: contributing to the education of each of the students in my charge.)

By catlady

February 14, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

I assume that parents respect me and my expertise until they show me they don’t respect it. I offer them respect as people who (should) know their child very well (although not in a school setting, which is different from a home setting). I want to collaborate with them in a way that benefits their child. Sometimes we disagree on the way to get to the goal for the child, but much of the time we have similar goals: they want their children to “get” an education. Some of my (frequently younger) colleagues immediately assume an adversarial position. Twice very recently it has happened that I “took over” a situation and solicited the parents’ assistance in a respectful way, assuming that the parents and school were wanting the same outcome. The colleagues were AMAZED that this “worked”. Sometimes teachers, as well as parents, have had bad experiences that cause them to think “all of THEM are like this” instead of seeing it as an abberation.

I DO expect to be treated respectfully by parents, students, colleagues, and administrators. I am sometimes disappointed.

By thomas

February 14, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Until this school year, if you had asked me the question about trust, I would have thought about the trust between parents and teachers. After spending over half a year at one of the worst elementary schools in the state of Georgia, my mind is changed. You have to have trust between teachers, administrators, and other colleagues first.

But as someone once told me- “the problems of education aren’t the kids, it’s the grown folks.” Parents, teachers, and administration. Sometimes I think the kids would do a better job than the adults.

By Lee

February 14, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

So, tell me, what has the public school system done to EARN my trust lately?

• They graduate barely functional illiterates.

• They play games with attendance, discipline, and a host of other performance measures in a vain hope of meeting AYP or keeping off the “dangerous schools list.”

• They pay PE teachers with Phd’s $90k a year but can’t provide basic supplies such as copier paper.

• They hide behind “zero tolerance” rules to suspend elementary students who bring a Tweety Bird keychain to school.

Need I go on? Have I made my point?

By Ron

February 14, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this

Trust no one and you’ll never be disapponted.There is no reason to trust anyone in the education department,the police department,the government,or your own family.Always keep a healthy skepticism when dealing with adults.You won’t regret it.No one is going to look after your butt like you are.

By nurse&mother

February 14, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this

Although I agree that one should definitely respect teachers and administrators, one does not have to agree with him/her.

I did disagree with a few things at my daughter’s school last year that just didn’t add up. I’m not a rocket scientist, but I’m not an idiot either. I was very polite and respectful, but I don’t think it would have mattered what I said. Administrators become very defensive when you question why something is done the way it’s done. BTW, I was an involved parent and volunteered in many ways. My daughter is an honor student in her class. (Once upon a time, I was well liked).

I was amazed at how quickly I got stonewalled! Wow-and only for disagreeing (sp?) and even offering a workable solution. I am a professional and can certainly handle some constructive criticism. I expect that other types of professional do the same.

We transferred schools this year and couldn’t be more pleased. The administration is wonderful (very intelligent and caring). My faith in the public education system has been restored.

I guess every profession has a bunch of bad apples.

Just an interesting observation- I live in a relatively small town (compared to ATL) and know lots of people in the schools. There are a few teachers that I knew in high school that were only mediocre students, certainly not your honor students. I am not throwing off on all educators, as my daughter has had some top notch teachers!

By JustMe

February 14, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this

I really hate those ‘sayings’ such as “Trust Trust doesn’t just happen — it must be earned.” That is absoluely complete bunk.

You trust the police (okay, so most of us do). Did that individual police officer earn your individual trust? NO!

You trust the fireman. Did that individual police officer earn your individual trust? NO!

You go to a new doctor - and sometimes get naked in front of them. That is major trust for no reason, right?

So then, why shouldn’t the same hold true for teachers? Teachers must go through a lot to be certified in GA. We get a college degree. We take a standardized test (or two). We get finger printed and background checked. Then, once we get the job, we get observed about once every few months.

What other professions are like this? Not many!

Do some scum people slip through the cracks and become teachers anyway. Sure. Just like there are some scum people that become doctors, police, etc.

For these professional jobs, people must trust that individual until proven otherwise. That’s just the way it is.

The funny thing to me, in my experience, is how some parents will believe their teenage that is prone to lying above a teacher. That always cracks me up.

By Lee

February 15, 2008 5:24 AM | Link to this

Why is it that some professions are stereotypically considered not worthy of trust, such as a politician or used car salesman, but other professions are placed upon a pedestal such as the doctor, teacher, preacher, or policeman?

It’s called professional skepticism or due diligence folks.

Consider this, you move to a new state and need to find a new dentist. You ask your new coworkers who they use. You pick one. First visit, the dentist tells you that you have a loose filling but the tooth really needs an expensive crown. What’s the first thought that crosses your mind; “Is this guy telling me the truth or is he trying to sell me an expensive procedure I don’t really need?” Some of us would go to another dentist for a second opinion.

Yes, Justme, trust has to be earned.

BTW, you don’t get one or two observations per year, you are observed everyday - and your observers go home everyday and tell their parents what you did and what you said. All of which goes into the parent’s thought process and determines who can be “trustworthy.”

By Hick from the Sticks

February 15, 2008 7:38 AM | Link to this

Lee—

Your last thought I could not have phrased better.

If any teacher thinks their students do not speak about them (good or bad) at the end of the day to their parents, you are sadly misinformed.

I had a parent approach me, and repeated verbatim what I had said six months prior to the parent’s child.

She teared up, and thanked me for my words, which in this child’s life, none of her teachers had ever said to her.

Remember—I’m working with teenagers, folks.

Teachers are always being observed by someone, folks. Whether you’re harmlessly walking around on a weekend afternoon, or when you’re in front of your classroom, the eyes are always following you.

Heh. Perhaps I should start 1984 today. :)

By jim d

February 15, 2008 7:47 AM | Link to this

JM,

What a sheltered life you must have lived if you actually trust every cop you meet or every doctor you’ve visited. Hell, I’d be willing to wager there are aa few educators that even you don’t trust or respect. However if you do trust all professionals, “you need your house re-wired” and that is my professional opinon. :-)

What other professions are like this? I hate to break it to you but there are many professional occupations that must comply with many of these standards. Are you fanilar with the duties of the Secretay of state and the states licensing board?

By MVP

February 15, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Jim D - I don’t even know why I’m even engaging you in discourse, because it’s obvious that you’re just argumentative for no reason other than to spout off, but, what we’re talking about here is BASIC trust and BASIC respect. If you didn’t have basic trust for teachers, you’d be a fool to send your child to school everyday! I don’t believe that I have to earn a student’s trust or respect. They don’t have to like me - that’s fine! But, they will treat me with the dignity and respect that I deserve. I address my students as ‘Sir’ and ‘Ma’am’ because I know that’s what southern children are taught to do as good manners, so I comply. But, as far as earning something, I did that several times when I my college degrees and my certifications. I’m not my students’ friend or their peer. We sometimes share a joke or two, but, ultimately - I’m their teacher. End of story.

By Jeff

February 15, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Gotta side with JM on this one.

As she said, the processes a teacher goes through to get hired are second pretty much only to getting a security clearance.

We are also the TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, NOT the parent. It is our JOB to look at a situation objectively, and if that means we think your kid needs to be expelled, he should be expelled on the spot.

To me, it goes back to the issue of “Schools are to do….”. If you want schools to do your (parents) job, STFU and let them do it.

If you DON’T want them to do your job, stop telling them they have to.

By jim d

February 15, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

2 funny 2day guy’s,

go play your head games with the kids and quit attempting to tell me what I must do. Ya want it? EARN IT Don’t want it? Not to worry!That my friends is the End of the story

By luvs2teach

February 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

“Trust doesn’t just happen — it must be earned… But that isn’t the way it works.”

Laura, if I had to guess (and I may be wrong), I would guess that you are under the age of thirty-five (probably even thirty) based on that statement. I’ve had this discussion with my friends and my students and there definitely seems to be a line depending on age.

There was a huge shift of trust in our country - I think it started in the late sixties with the Vietnam wars protests and the baby-boomers and their “don’t trust anyone over the age of thirty.” It got worse with Watergate - the President broke our collective trust!! Through the 80s and 90s, as journalism had more outlets - 24 hours a day on CNN - stories frequently broke about people in positions of trust abusing that power. It wasn’t just teachers - politicians, doctors, CEOs of companies (hello Enron, anyone? I had stock in that company…), policemen - I could go on.

So now we have a whole generation of people saying that trust and respect must be earned. I grew up learning that trust and respect wwere implicit - often due to position - adults, teachers, doctors, policemen all had it. They earned by growing up, getting educated, and getting hired in their respective positions. The earning part was already done, however it was possible to lose it.

It saddens me that a few have ruined it for the many. I don’t think this shift is a positive one. I see kids getting in trouble with teachers and cops because of this generation gap. The kids don’t respond in a way that the adult thinks in appropriate and trouble ensues.

You also see rules like the “no unaccompanied children” rule at the malls - because children aren’t taught to respect an adult such as a store manager or a mall security officer.

As SET says, Brave New World…I would paraphrase, “Sad New World.”

By jim d

February 18, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

L2T,

While questioning conventional wisdom, doubting the experts, and questioning authority can be very painful in relationships with teachers, it’s enormously useful in life.

Unfortunately many teachers see that questioning and doubting as being disrespectful and distrustful. Perhaps a simple re-evaluation of their perceptions would be in order.

By luvs2teach

February 18, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

jim d - I don’t have a problem with the questioning per se - after all, I was scientist before I was a science teacher.

I was also brought up differently and in a different time.

My problem is that people use the “questioning authority” umbrella to act like fools - and thus ruin it for the rest of us.

Most kids (ha, and many adults) don’t have the critical thinking skills to question authority appropriately - they just want to question things they don’t like or question for the sake of questioning…which is what kids do as part of growing up, finding themselves, and learning independence. I teach 8th grade - in no other grade is that more evident, and if a teacher gets her panties in a wad over that, s/he needs to teach a different, more compliant grade.

My problem is permissive parents (and other adults) who think its cute and then cry foul when their kids get in trouble.