Get Schooled

By jim d

February 11, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

Can we all say in unison—-“Poorly worded questions?”

By HS Teacher Too

February 11, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

Laura, This is a great topic, and I think if you asked a thousand teachers you’d get a thousand answers. I can’t speak to what parents do when they can’t help their kids — I haven’t been there yet, we’re still in diapers — but I can share my perspectives on the first part of your question.

I taught high school math, and rarely, if ever, did I grade homework (with the exception of when I taught the lowest-level classes, because experience told me that no accountability meant the students wouldn’t do it — and they needed to). The reason for that is that I consider homework to serve two purposes. 1. It should serve as practice for students to get better at a skill. 2. It should serve, for students and for me, as a type of feedback of what they do and don’t understand.

So, I didn’t grade homework because I didn’t want to encourage students to copy, rush, etc., at all costs to have it appear “done,” when in reality they didn’t know how to do the last 10 problems — or for that matter, even the first 10 problems. Likewise, if they understood it after the first two problems, I encouraged my students to skip to the end and work backwards.

It was much more meaningful for me to have a class full of students come back the next day and say “we couldn’t do it,” than it ever could be for a class full of students to have a bunch of copied-from-a-friend stuff that makes no sense to them, but they are telling me is “done,” and I don’t have the honest feedback that we need to revisit the material.

I’ve been frustrated as a student when I had homework that was merely busy-work, and it frustrates me to see students “punished” with busy work for the sake of a teacher who didn’t LOOK at the work s/he was assigning, but merely said “do 1-37 odd.” To me, that’s a lazy or careless teacher. I’m a firm believer in the need for practice and even for drilling, but too often I see homework where that is NOT the purpose, but is the result. And ultimately, that’s not fair to the kids.

And 20 word problems for a middle schooler’s math homework is about 10-12 too many, if you ask me. Which, I realize, you didn’t. :)

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

jim:

Actually, particularly with math word problems, student difficulties often come due to a lack of proper problem solving and logic skills. That is why I try to teach a problem solving unit at the beginning of every semester- frowned upon by many admins as taking too much ‘teach to the test’ time.

As to the topic:

Realize that today I speak as a math teacher, and I really know nothing about how other disciplines look at this subject.

Homework is given to cement the understanding of the day’s class topic. Depending on the topic, I may well elect to give as few as 5 problems or as many as a couple hundred. All said, I’m going to aim for understanding, and I really do NOT care about the time it takes the kid to do it. I haven’t yet seen a math assignment that I would classify as true ‘busy work’, because ALL practice in math is beneficial. Just as a runner sees shaving a tenth of a second off of his time as indicative of a good practice, so I see shaving a tenth of a second off the time it takes to complete the given question. Therefore, since a runner will complete the same distance probably THOUSANDS of times, I see no problem whatsoever giving the student the same types of problems a few dozen times - maybe even a few hundred or a few thousand times - within a year.

By JustMe

February 11, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

IMHO, good homework is essential to learning. Students can watch a teacher do the work (solve problems) on the board all day long. Until the student attempts them by themselves, they won’t really learn anything.

I tell my students that the purpose of homework is to prepare them for the test. If they have problems/difficulty with the homework, they likely will have problems/difficulty with the test.

Regarding poorly worded questions…. There are poorly worded questions/things everywhere - in the book, on standardized tests (CRCT, EOCT, GHSGT, etc.), in real life (from your boss, IKEA instructions, etc.). Ideally, all questions and instructions would be worded simply and straight-forward. But, we don’t live in an ideal world. Students must learn to interpret poorly worded questions to the best of their ability.

By catlady

February 11, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Thank you, Laura, for being a mentor.

Our system does not allow more than 45 minutes of homework for middle school students, TOTAL. The teachers have to negotiate about what and when they have homework.

Since no child can be faulted (grade wise or losing recess) for not having homework, it serves little purpose except as feedback to teachers, which, as HS2 points out, is a good reason, and for practicing skills, as jeff points out. Since there is no immediate consequence, few of our students do any homework, and teachers are giving it less often (with the homework cap in place). We have begun to figure that for most of our students what they do in class is ALL they will do. I’d like to know if it is like that in other systems.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

catlady:

I too have seen that trend.

Problem is, from Algebra on up, it will CRIPPLE them in math class.

In college, it could very well KILL them.

And it very possibly explains the shortage of non-international math/science majors in our colleges.

By catlady

February 11, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

I am very glad those rules/that way of thinking was not in place when my children were in school. It is unlikely that my youngest would have graduated with dual BAs in astrophysics and math if she had not been pushed to real mastery, instead of mediocrity. She got mastery by practicing (repeatedly) the skills presented in class.

Our supt. thinks that the children do not do well on the crct math because of inept teachers. However, not being allowed to teach to mastery, no homework, and not enforcing retention can explain 90% of the failure our kids experience. (That, and that they cannot read. Thanks, scripted reading and Reading First).

By mmm

February 11, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

I think this debate is rather like the “whole language” vs. “phonics” one. You need balance. I have a 5th grader who still doesn’t know her multiplication tables as she should and as a consequence tries all kinds of silly methods of avoidance when face with a single page of double digit problems. As a parent I have no sympathy. She is too obstinate to buckle down until she wastes 3 hours.

On the other hand, my 3rd grade son got great math homework. He was told that his assignment over the weekend was to think about and come back ready to report what he thought was the “value of zero”. We had a great time talking about place value and how icky adding Roman numbers is because they have no zero. But then my husband and I are both comfortable with math.

By Good Question

February 11, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

I haven’t noticed anyone answer the question regarding what do you do when you cannot help your child with their homework??? My son is in the 7th grade and he’s already past the math I’m able to assist with. If the teacher doesn’t give the answers on her website… I have no clue if his work is done correctly.

• Tutoring is expensive.
• I can forget trying to afford Sylvan or Huntington.
• The teachers sometimes offer help sessions before school but they start at 8:15/8:30 and I cannot drop him off at school before then.

Seriously, I’d like for someone to give some solid advice on how to help with your childs homework when you are unable to do so.

By yanamom

February 11, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Our school system does not allow teachers in grade school to count any homework that is sent home for a grade. They can only send it home for practice. I was told that the reason for this rule is that the teacher can not tell if it was the student who did the work or if it was a parent or older sibling who did the work.

By RJ

February 11, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

I’m fortunate enough to be able to pay for a private tutor for my child. I don’t know what I’d do without her. My daughter is in the 8th grade taking Algebra, so I would be of very little help to her. I’ve heard that there are some websites out there that can help kids. I would start there.

By HS Teacher Too

February 11, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

JustMe, you bring up a GREAT point when you say, “Students must learn to interpret poorly worded questions to the best of their ability.”

Now, I don’t know about middle school math, but I know that I taught high school (and still tutor) and especially with probability problems, one word can make a significant difference in interpretation — and in the solution method and answer. I always taught my students that if they were unsure, they could write a simple sentence to justify their method. If that made sense, I’d grade their work accordingly. (Sometimes, even the most carefully written questions just can’t anticipate a high-schooler’s perspective!) But I had a colleague who would use the stock questions from the teachers’ guide. As anyone who teaches any subject knows, those are NOT always the most clear questions … and yet that teacher would adamantly refuse to look at any alternative perspectives EVEN WHEN those alternative perspectives were arguably MORE correct.

So it is a double-edged sword. Tell a student to do their best with the material at hand, absolutely — but hope that the teacher who reads their work isn’t so pigheaded as to think only their way can possibly be correct.

(Heck, if it it is the only correct way, a reasonable person will at least listen to a reasoned argument, even if they ultimately decide against it.)

By Scott

February 11, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

I do not have a problem with the homeowrk being assigned, my problem is when there is no example in the book or on the worksheet on how the teacher wants the work to be done. I have the problem with my children saying that is not the way the teacher wants this to be done. We will come up with the same answer on the problem.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

for parents who don’t know what to do about helping the child with homework:

I would suggest developing a REALLY good relationship with a teacher whose subject matter expertise you trust. Might not be your own kid’s teacher, but maybe someone in your neighborhood or church or book club or whatever happens to be a (fill in the subject) teacher. I would then ask them for help in that area.

Now, if your kid needs more than the occassional help, I’d pony up the cash for some private tutoring. As far as who to use, I’d be more likely to trust a good teacher’s former student than some corporation, but that’s just me.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

HST2:

I have conflicting feelings on your last.

On the one hand, I completely agree. I also KNOW that when it comes to math, there is RARELY one set way to come to the correct answer - with a sufficient knowledge base, of course. (For example: In MOST Geometric or Algebraic problems, you can arrive at the correct answer either geometrically OR algebraically, IFF you know enough about both subjects to do so.)

Which leads to the confliction:

In many classes - particularly at the HS level - typically what I am teaching isn’t so much the ANSWER as the SOLUTION - the approach to getting the answer. Therefore, if the student deviates from the approach, the solution is wrong, even if the answer is correct. That is one reason you see many MS/HS math teachers demanding that students show work on all questions.

By Lynn

February 11, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

My 7th and 8th grade children in Cobb County are struggling with the “new” math program that Cobb has implemented this year. The subject matter seems to skip from Geometry to Algebra, etc. Is there a middle school math teacher that can provide some insight into this new program?

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Scott:

In your case, as a parent I’d ask the exact question I ask a student as a teacher when they try to ask me for help:

“Where’s your notes?”

If they don’t have them, I don’t bother. MOST teachers I know give enough detail in the lecture for the student to be able to figure out 90% of the homework, at LEAST. (Some of the HW problems I assigned required a little thinking, and that was intentional.) Therefore, if a student has the notes, the student (and anyone else who sees the notes) should be able to go back 30 years from now and still follow the exact same procedure and arrive at the exact same answer.

By V for Vendetta

February 11, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

As an elitest, I’m going to throw this out:

If you can’t understand your child’s homework, your child might have bigger problems than school. Before everyone lambasts me at once, let me explain.

In the case of what Laura is describing, I can sense there is some confusion pertaining primarily to the problem. This sounds like a improperly worded math problem that, ideally, should be reformed. I would hold that that is a teacher issue, and should be taken up with said teacher for clarification. See? Not too bad, huh?

As far as a fundamental understanding is concerned: I agree that there are concepts and theories that are difficult to retain. Not having been particularly fond of Math, myself, I completely concur that there could be difficulties when dealing with a middle school or high school student.

But that’s why you’re the parent, to teach your child. Being your child’s first teacher goes beyond the early years, you should be your child’s BEST teacher if possible.

Learn it. My advice is to simply learn it. Sure, it might be tough, and it might be in a subject that you don’t really like, but by learning it (sometimes together!) you will foster a better understanding in your child than you ever thought possible. If you’re struggling with their homework when they’re younger than 7th grade or so, well, then perhaps you should stop having kids. I don’t think we want your genetics around!

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Lynn:

It is part of the new GPS. There is no more “Geometry” or “Algebra” class. (And I completely agree with the new approach.)

Basically, it gets to one of the points I made earlier: For most MS/HS level math questions, you should be able to look at the same problem from at LEAST two different view points: Geometrically and Algebraically. No longer can students think “I’m in Albegra, I don’t have to know the Pythagorean Theorem” or “I’m in Geometry, what’s those letters doing there?”. Instead, the goal is to drive home the point that both Algebra and Geometry are simply two different ways of looking at exactly the same thing.

By Penguinmom

February 11, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

If you can’t help your student on their homework, the Gwinnett County Library has a free on-line (and possibly) call-in homework help. (Google Gwinnett Public Library for the link) There are also other homework help web sites where students can post questions. I have even seen homework questions posted on Yahoo! Answers.

Regarding word problems, with Algebra-like concepts being pushed into lower and lower grades, the word problems are following. So, I see 7th graders solving similar problems to the ones in the Algebra text. They are just expected to solve it without having access to the knowledge of variables and systems of equations that comes in Algebra I and II.

On the whole homework issue, I can’t imagine a class where the homework didn’t count. What incentive do most kids have to do it then? College must be a really huge shock to these students.

By luvs2teach

February 11, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Penguinmom - actually, I rarely, if ever, had graded homework in college - however, if I wanted to have any chance of doing well on the midterm or final (often the only tests) then I had best do my homework to reinforce and identify areas of weakness.

As a middle school teacher it is suggested we use the 10 minute rule - 10 minutes per grade level (total, not each subject). So, my 8th graders could reasonably expect 80 minutes of HW per night. Divided by the 4-5 academic areas, that means about 15-20 minutes per subject. I try to stick with this rule, but I don’t assign homework every night (and never on weekends - that’s just my thing, though - I hated when my kids had HW on the weekend). I often have them working on long-term projects, though.

If I taught math or a foreign language, I would assign HW every night becuase those two subjects need constant reinforcement.

I try very hard to not have my HW be busy-work - I talk with the kids about reinforcement and identifying areas of weakness as being the purpose. I go through a whole “how the brain retains” thing with them - it makes a difference - most realize how copying will only hurt them in the end. I start by grading for completion, but before the test or quiz I’ll grade for accuracy (they always know)- that helps them identify what they still don’t know prior to a test situation.

Personally, if I could get away with never grading classwork or homework I would do that - it could eliminate the whole copying issue - but like someone else said, many kids won’t do it if there’s no grade for it. Also, if we’re trying to have grades reflect what they know, rather than what they do, then grades for attempting and completion defeat that purpose. Oh well…

By V for Vendetta

February 11, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

Penguinmom,

Actually, I would say the opposite. College profs almost never grade homework assignments, nor do they typically assign them in the first place. I think not grading homework is MORE realistic. The kids that care enough to do it will succeed, the ones that don’t will fail. (And it will be entirely their fault.) But again, I’m an elitest. I’m sure someone out there has a more warm and fuzzy approach.

By Old School

February 11, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Good Question @11:30; I’m on my lunch break (my ONLY break in the day) so I haven’t read all the responses to your question. I’m adding mine anyway.

Check with the nearest high school and if they have a National Honor Society chapter, those kids are usually looking for a good community service to perform. Tutoring is ideal. They can either come to your child’s school or possibly meet him/her at a library or other safe site.

I’m a firm believer in “To teach is to learn twice.” It will not only help your child but the tutor as well.

By Kym

February 11, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

I didnt get to read all the comments but as the parent of a middle schooler I really feel like homework(at least at my son’s school) is just busy work…so many worksheets, copies of pages from the book. More wasted paper. I dont think my son has ever actually brought one of the textbooks home.(sigh) So I google math sites or history sites for information and assistance or call a friend(who is a teacher).

By luvs2teach

February 11, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Kym - I can’t speak to the copies of pages from a book (?), but what’s on the worksheets? Is it something that requires higher order thinking? Is it needed reinforcement or practice? Or is it indeed some busy work?

I think we all hear “worksheet” and think “bad” but I think you need to evaluate what’s on the worksheet and why it was assigned - is it aligned to the standards for the subject and grade (which are available for all to see at the Georgia DOE site)?

I give worksheets sometimes. I give home-labs sometimes. I just don’t do the same thing all the time.

By JustMe

February 11, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

As a teacher over the years, I have seen how much peer helpers work. If you cannot help your child with their homework, there most certainly is SOME child in your neighborhood that can assist.

Have ‘homework parties’ at your house. All you need to provide is some snacks as bribes - how about pizza?

I have seen this work wonderfully. Students sometimes learn best from other students - they can speak their own language.

However, it is up to you, as the adult parent, to ensure that they kids stay on the topic of homework and not go off on a tangent about MTV, a movie, or whatever.

By Mathlovingmom

February 11, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Is Gwinnett using the Connected Math Series as its middle school math textbooks? If so, that might explain the problem. Fulton County is now using the CMP-2, and my middle schooler’s homework is ridiculous! North Fulton schools had an extremely successful math program, particularly for advanced math students, and now the whole program has been dumbed down. The CMP-2 focuses on word problems, but the problems are poorly written and often use inaccurate approaches to solve problems. The children spend so much time plotting similar graphs over and over that they don’t have time to learn real math or gain mathematical fluency. Visit georgiaparentsformath.org for additional information on the new Georgia math program and problems parents and teachers are facing. The students are the ones losing out on the appropriate math education they deserve.

By Jane

February 11, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

To just “pony up the cash” for tutoring—have you priced those places. I did look into huntington and they wanted $7,000. That is to big a chunk to take out of any family budget. Also since TEACHERS consistently complain they are underpaid - where and how do they think the rest of us will come up with the money to get the child tutored so that they can do the work that should be being taught in class.

By Good Question

February 11, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

To just “pony up the cash” for tutoring—have you priced those places. I did look into huntington and they wanted $7,000.

Thanks for saying that Jane… It seems to me that someone got the impression that we don’t want to put out the money - some of us can’t. I checked Huntington too - they want $175 for the assessment test (that’s mandatory) and $50/hr to tutor. My child never finishes his homework in an hour… nor would he be able to do so with someone having to break it down to him so he understands. As I see it, he would need assistance everyday for a least 2 hours.

Since the subject at hand is math… figure that out :)

I do like the idea of trying to find a student at the local high school.

By JustMe

February 11, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Jane - Whoa there! You sound like a parent that immediately places blame on the teacher….

Have you conferenced with the teacher? Have you taken 30 minutes out of your day to sit in on the teacher’s class? Why do you automatically blame the teacher?

What if the teacher is doing exactly what they should? What if your child has some undiagnosed LD? What if your child isn’t paying attention in class thus missing the lessons?

Do you ensure that your child has a study space at home? Do you ensure that your child spends sufficient time reading and studying the material? Do you review your child’s homework (at least for completion if not for accuracy)?

You really should consider all factors before jumping to the conclusion that ‘it is the teacher’s fault.’

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Jane:

I specifically said that I would trust a friend of a friend tutor for hire more than I would one of the tutoring companies.

Those tutors for hire may come anywhere from $10 - $100/ hour (MAYBE cheaper, doubtfully more expensive), but typically the parent has better quality control. (Ie if progress isn’t being made, you can FAR more easily discontinue the services.)

Furthermore, with a tutor for hire you can directly control the number of hours they work with your kid one on one. This leads to (one would presume) even greater gains.

Also, with a tutor for hire you know THEIR credentials, and not just that of the overall organization.

By JEFF

February 11, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

I am amazed that a teacher would say I don’t care how long it takes the student to do the homework and as for V for Vendetta you need a reality check. Jeff (the teacher) if all teachers thought your way the kids would be so burnt out on school graduation rates would probably drop even more. The reality is that most families have 2 working parents and for the sake of argument lets say both don’t get home until after 5:00 pm and the kids have after-school they come home and start homework, eat supper finish homework then get ready for bed and then time to go to school again. There is no time to explore or just be a kid.

There needs to be a limit and as far as not knowing how to do the work, V in a few years when you have kids let’s see how you feel about it then. Tutoring cost so much because these companies know how bad the teaching in the state is (there are some fine teachers, but far and few between) and that kids really need their help just to stay afloat. as far as the just pony up and pay comment goes this is not realistic in most families..(teachers, see: economy it’s been in the newspaper).

I think for the most part homework is not a bad thing, but two hours every night is pretty harsh for even the best of students. include time figuring out a question the student has now you have maybe a three hour project going on.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Mathlovingmom:

I have personal experience with teaching CMP from Randolph, and let me say this:

Assuming knowledge of basic facts, CMP is decent. Problem is, MOST - INCLUDING GIFTED - students do not come in with a good handle on basic facts.

I LOVE the way it makes you think. But overall I just don’t like the design/ basic approach. But it isn’t the Satan that some would have you think.

By I'm Feeling You!!!!!

February 11, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Boy……what a very serious topic but little solutions offered from the Educators. You are mentoring and feeling it and I’m living it, daily. I have an 8th grader in a Gwinnett Middle school and I am frustrated to my ears - the kid is totally drowning. We have a tutor (our 2nd one) and we still sinking. Seemingly the teacher is always 1 leg ahead. By the time he has grasped what was covered in class - they are on to another subject. May I suggest trying to get a high school or college student as a tutor. Thank you for mentoring youth - good luck.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

JEFF:

If parents put less emphasis on after school activities (yes, including football - and I’m one of the ones that tends to see HS football as a religion) and more emphasis on their kids’ learning, you’d be AMAZED what would happen.

Back in my pre-college days, I could finish every SCRAP of homework I had within an hour after school (on the OUTSIDE). Of course, I also worked on it whenever I had a chance - the ride home, lunch, during breaks when I’m waiting for the other class to be let out, when I’m in class waiting on the teacher to move on, etc.

The problem isn’t that the schools are expecting too much from the students. The problem is that parents are expecting too little from their kids. (And I think that is something I’ll start putting at the bottom of most of my posts, as it is one of the main things MOST problems in school boil down to!)

By Kym

February 11, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

luv2teach when I say copies from the textbook I mean these are the actually textbook chapter pages the kids dont bring the books home..(one reason I am looking hard at private school.) The worksheets are either made up by the teacher or just what was taken at the back of the lesson from the textbook. One problem I have expressed to the teachers is that without the book the kids cant see all the details on maps to answer the questions. So while the worksheets may be on point with the lesson if the child cant read them and has no book to refer back to it is extremely diffcult for the child and the parent who is helping with homework

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Kym:

As I said earlier:

“Where’s the notes?”

The problem isn’t that the schools are expecting too much from the students. The problem is that parents are expecting too little from their kids.

By Old School

February 11, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

As a high school Engineering Drawing instructor (34 years), the type of homework I might give would be research. For example: I have students interview the parent who is most likely to use the kitchen or who complains the most about closet space. They are to ask questions like “What do you like most/least about your kitchen/bath/closets/laundry? If you could make one major change and one minor change in the floor plan of your current residence, what would those changes be and why?

Most students come up with questions of their own or at least have a real conversation with a parent. They share their notes with the class and either do a redesign on their existing home or develop a new one.

In my opinion, homework should enhance and reinforce what they are learning. It doesn’t have to duplicate what went on in class.

Works for us down here!

By Kym

February 11, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

Notes or not even in college you or your parents (at least I did) spent a god awful amount to buy the textbook for the purposes of reading, I then took notes in class, all in prep for the midterm or final exams. My son had one teacher out of the 2 years in this “charter school” actually make them take notes from the board. Also I hold my son accountable for all of the work he is required to do. I check his agenda that he has written down the homework assignments I review the homework after it is complete and if there is something that is incorrect I have him explain his answer so that he can see where he may have made a mistake. I expect him to write all answers to questions in complete sentences if not he does it over. I recongize that my son’s school while consider better than some is not on par with the type of education I expect for him. When I was his age we were required not only to read a book but to write an actually book report on what we read. Now they have a Book report form. (yet another worksheet)

By Kym

February 11, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

Notes or not even in college you or your parents (at least I did) spent a god awful amount to buy the textbook for the purposes of reading, I then took notes in class, all in prep for the midterm or final exams. My son had one teacher out of the 2 years in this “charter school” actually make them take notes from the board. Also I hold my son accountable for all of the work he is required to do. I check his agenda that he has written down the homework assignments I review the homework after it is complete and if there is something that is incorrect I have him explain his answer so that he can see where he may have made a mistake. I expect him to write all answers to questions in complete sentences if not he does it over. I recongize that my son’s school while consider better than some is not on par with the type of education I expect for him. When I was his age we were required not only to read a book but to write an actually book report on what we read. Now they have a Book report form. (yet another worksheet)

By Lisa

February 11, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

Please don’t lump all parents together. My kids have no after school activities to worry about. I have spent hours trying to help them understand certain math concepts. Perhaps, the problem could be that some students just have a problem with certain subjects. My kids try their best, but still have some difficulties.

And, I do this while working full time and being a single mother.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

Kym:

Remember as I say what I am about to that I am a math teacher (former):

I cannot STAND reading a math book! MUCH easier to have a prof with excellent subject matter knowledge give a detailed lecture. I can take the notes and follow them ONE THOUSAND times easier than trying to follow a text!

regarding parents buying college texts: My parents had faults, but being a helicopter wasn’t one of them. Particularly at the college level, the kid is on their own.

regarding ME buying college texts: MOST college seniors will tell you this, but at the BS level there really aren’t THAT many classes (at least in my experience) that you HAD to have the book for. And I’m not talking “You have to have the book to get an A, but you can get away without the book and still pass the class.” I’m talking “You can ace this class and never lay eyes on the text, much less actually USE it!”

Who knows, maybe it is the AS kicking in with regards to my academic abilities, but seriously - textbooks are FAR overrated if you take good notes.

By Mathlovingmom

February 11, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Maybe the CMP is okay as a supplement, but it is a failure as the primary textbook. Some of the questions are good, but many are worded in such a way that neither children, parents, or tutors can figure out what in the world they are truly asking. I don’t consider this a problem with lack of knowledge of basic math facts but poorly worded questions and disorganized textbooks. The child has to spend 10 minutes searching previous questions/homework to find out which prior problem is supposed to be used in comparison. (And this with a child who is extremely neat and well-organized.) The children spend so much time writing “math stories” that there is no time for real math. We had a great math program in North Fulton, but now with the changes in the math curriculum this year I have never seen so many parents looking into private schools!

By luvs2teach

February 11, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

Kym - thanks for filling me in on the textbooks - what I don’t understand is why your school isn’t providing books? Even if the teacher is just using a class set, you can often request one for home, particularly if your child is struggling.

Is there an online textbook or component? Most of the major publishers have online resources, including extra help - videos and interactive animations, too - even self-tests. Try googling the major publishers: Glencoe, Holt, McDougall-Littell, and Prentice Hall.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

mathlovingmom:

Honestly, one of the BIGGEST reasons many systems are switching to CMP? (At least when I was using it about a year ago):

It is one of the only books out there currently aligned to GPS.

By Jeff

February 11, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

luvs:

I know at Newton I was NOT allowed to send home books for one of my classes. Whether or not the office would release them to parents, I have no idea. Just telling you what I knew there…

By mathlovingmom

February 11, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Maybe the state of GA moved too quickly on the GPS if there are not appropriate textbooks/support materials for the teachers and students. I don’t personally have a problem with the GPS, but I do regret that the implementation is creating such havoc. I’m okay with combining algebra and geometry and the basic idea of integrated math, but when the textbooks are not in existence to adequately support the curriculum, maybe the state DOE put the cart before the horse.

By Kym

February 11, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach..my dear my son is in a charter school in south fulton the school is not exactly helpful on things like that..so I basicly do most of the research for supplements at home.

Dont get me wrong Jeff I am not a whiny parent I do my part because I firmly believe that it is my job to be the head foreperson in constructing my kid’s educational foundation..I look at the school as crew(staff) and in the end if the foundation is faulty then the buck stops with me. This is why private school is in my sights..I am going to have to fire my crew.

By jim d

February 11, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Laura,

if you think the children that are being mentored have it tough with homework—you should visit the ones that the teachers use for mentoring. The gifted often times really get screwed and get to take their class work home in the form of homework, where they spend 4-6 hours daily at home doing what everyone else did in class.

By HS Teacher Too

February 11, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I was talking specifically about probability problems where there IS room for interpretation … for example, in a poorly worded question it really can be a matter of opinion/interpretation as to whether one considers it a combination or permutation. I agree 100% that it is the solution, showing work I am after, and not typically the ultimate “Right answer.” (Although it’s not all touchy-feely; you can’t get full credit without the right answer, but likewise you can’t get full credit with no work and the right answer.)

I’ve got to get back to reading today’s posts … I was out of pocket all afternoon!

By luvs2teach

February 11, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Kym - yikes - where were you the other day when everyone was extolling the virtues of charter schools, lol? I would have a real problem with no book if there were no other option (online or CD-ROM for example).

Seriously, not knowing the grade or subject matter for your son, you still might find the following sites helpful:

McDougall-Littell Classzone Holt Rhinehart Winston McGraw-Hill Glencoe Prentice Hall

The sites have some material open to the public, some other that you need a textbook code or key to access. Look inside the front covers of your textbook - you may see directions there.

Good luck - I gotta go copy some worksheets…

By ChemTeacher

February 11, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

Hey guys…..long time lurker, first time poster…….

I’ve seen lots of good points listed already when it comes to homework help:

But the thing I have not really seen mentioned yet is the fact that most teachers I know (myself included) have all but GIVEN UP on homework! After all, how are we to know who’s doing it? Instead, we assign work during class and allow students to check their progress while they are there. Therefore, if a kid in one of my classes has homework, it’s only because he didn’t finish it in class.

And I’ll give you one guess as to WHY he didn’t finish it in class……. ;) Possible answers: chit-chatting, texting friends, sleeping, writing notes (yes, they still do this!), “taking a break” from the work……I’ve heard them all!

If this is your child’s situation, parents, ask your kids this instead: Why do you have so much work left to do? What else were you doing in class?

By HS Teacher Too

February 11, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

Good Question

I wrote earlier that I can’t really answer the question of what I do when I can’t help my child, purely because I’m not yet at that stage. However, I can tell you what I suggest to parents, and maybe that will help.

First, I always advise students to come see me before and/or after school. Realizing that transportation is an issue for many students, I offer that they can come sit in my room from the time the bus drops them off at school until the time the “get to class” bell rings. For some kids who don’t lollygag with lockers and socializing, that is as many as 20-25 minutes each morning. And what I tell them (and their parents) is that sometimes it may be as simple as working their homework in my presence so that I can be an immediate helper; other times it’s better if they try their homework at home, and come in the next morning to ask questions about places they were stuck. In either case, I am (or more correctly, was, since I am not presently teaching) available every single morning unless I was involved with a meeting.

Many of these are time-consuming solutions, I realize, but they are at least places to get started. I know that I, at least, had available to me “parents’ supplements” and “reteaching” notes from the textbook that we used that walked the students through the concepts. They were designed to help parents understand the lessons and students have a “user-friendly” lesson if they were absent. Ask your child’s teacher if these resources exist and if you can have a copy. A good teacher will take the time to get them to you.

I hope these help. We do tend to wax a little philosophical on this blog, don’t we?!

Kym Did you ask the teacher why the book isn’t coming home? I taught high school math and although I typically mixed up the format of homework, there were occasions (or in some cases, entire classes) where I would photocopy the book pages and send them home because I realized that most students wouldn’t do their homework if they had to lug that 90 pound book — but would do it if they could fold up a worksheet. Their books were still AVAILABLE to them to take home, though — so maybe it’s worth a phone call to get to the root of it. Of course, it might be any of a number of other good or bad reasons, but it’s worth asking.

I’m Feeling You This is a much-debated, much lamented topic for the regulars on this blog. What you’re seeing may be as much due to a poor teacher as to a poor system. I know in Gwinnett they have unreasonable pacing expectations — they would prefer to check off a list that says “we talked about it” than to actually risk not finishing an entire textbook, but really TEACHING FOR UNDERSTANDING the material that they do cover. Trust me, as a high school math teacher and tutor, I get almost all of my tutoring students because the curriculum goes too stupidly fast. Not because the kids are incapable, or even necessarily because they have poor teachers (although Lord knows there are too many of them), but because the curriculum calls for too much, too quickly. I feel you and your child’s pain immensely.

Finally, to anyone who is still reading, I agree that college won’t have graded homework. I did grade occasional homeworks, but I had certain rules about when/why I woudl grade them, in an effort to be as fair as possible to the students. As I described above, I did not grade homework daily, or even close to daily. I really think that in a CP class, students will figure out that they need to do (or can get by without doing) their homework, and it ought to be beneficial as opposed to punishment. As I said, if a student gets it on problem 2, why do all 20 problems just to get a check mark? I also don’t believe that a student should be able to struggle in a class but have the homework “save them.” That’s just not realistic as to what they will see in college — and not a good reflection of what they learned in the class. I can’t speak for everyone, but speaking for myself that effort was always noticed and reflected in the student’s grade, if not explicitly. ;) wink wink. Sometimes C+’s turn to B-’s, etc.

By Lee

February 11, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this

Trust me, as a high school math teacher and tutor, I get almost all of my tutoring students because the curriculum goes too stupidly fast.

Bingo! I’ve been preaching that sermon for years.

Problems with homework and parents having to hire tutors is merely symptomatic of a much larger problem.

Years ago, when schools were run by people with common sense, we started our academic journey in the FIRST grade. It was called FIRST grade for a reason. That was because FIRST grade was the FIRST year that we attended school.

Today, we have 3 year olds in PK-3, or whatever the hell it is called, first graders are expected to be reading Tolstoy, and by the time they get to middle school, they are so screwed up that most can’t do simple math without taking their shoes off. Talk about the Law of Diminshing Returns…

Sure, we had homework 30-40 years ago. However, I cannot remember my parents having to spend hours helping me do it… especially by the time I reached Jr. High.

Today, we have seven year olds with cronic back pain from having to tote 50# backpacks. Go figure.

My biggest complaint about homework when my kids were younger is that I felt the teacher blew through the concept in class and sent it home in the vain hope that the kids could learn it on their own - or with a lot of help from Mom and Dad.

Got your homework done? Good. On to the next subject.

I must say, though, the grand prize for the most idiotic statement of the day goes to Jeff. See below:

I may well elect to give as few as 5 problems or as many as a couple hundred. All said, I’m going to aim for understanding, and I really do NOT care about the time it takes the kid to do it.

By Jody

February 11, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this

A few observations here….

1) Gifted kids are the worst copiers. I took AP Calculus in HS and a group of us gifted kids rotated the homework duties b/c it was truly boring. Sadly, the focus is so much on the standardized tests that much teaching creativity has been lost.

2) I was fortunate enough to have parents who could help me with my math homework, however, 20 years later, my mom said to me that was the worst mathbook she’d ever see, that it was no wonder I’d gotten frustrated and thrown the book a time or two. From what I’ve seen tutoring kids younger than me, the books aren’t getting any better.

3) It would also help if there wasn’t such a social stigma to being a smart kid. This never changes, which is sad. I know several people who have very bright kids who aren’t putting forth the effort b/c the effort isn’t cool. No amount of tutoring is going to fix this problem.

4) On the flip side, I see way too many parents that professors call “helicopter parents”. My parents told me like it was…we haven’t got the money to outright send you to college, you’d better get the grades. If more parents would tell it like it is, there might be more students who try harder. After all, parental approval is very important to lots of kids.

By Love my 4 kids

February 12, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this

Whenever I have had a challenging day home schooling, I just read the comments on this site and know that I have made the best choice for my family. I laughingly tell my kids that everything we do in school is “homework”. We rarely finish before 4:00 PM, but that is it for the day. The children are free to do what they want until bedtime when my husband reads to them. We never do school work on the weekends. My sixth grader is finishing up pre-algebra (he teaches himself) and wants to know how soon he can take physics so he can use it for AI programming. Last year he scored in the 95th percentile for math. My fifth grader is taking sixth grade math (including algebra) and my first grader skipped to second grade. He knows all of his math facts (takes speed drills daily), can add and subtract to the thousands place with carrying and borrowing. He can also explain what he is doing by using unit cubes to show place value. He can work word problems (he reads well) and understands fractions. He has just started learning his multiplication tables1-5 and will soon have them mastered because he has already memorized skip counting by 2, 3, 4, and 5. I’ve spent about $2500 this year on curriculum for all three. I think I’ve gotten my money’s worth. You do the math.

By Booger McGee

February 12, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

Sounds to me like Laura Diamond is a freakin’ idiot who shouldn’t be tutoring our school kids.

By jim d

February 12, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Sorry to disagree. (not really)

You can take the new intergarted math and the Constructivist math approaches (also called ‘whole math,’ ‘situated math’ and ‘authentic math) and but em where the sun done shine.

The skill-and-drill methods worked to place us at the top in the world for well over 100 years.

American high school seniors are currently ranked third from last in mathematics literacy out of 21 nations.

WHY? Because students don’t have a grasp of math fundamentals, the formulas and numerical operations that constitute maths core. Children need those solid math skills before they can truly connect math concepts.

JMHO!!

By JustMe

February 12, 2008 7:51 AM | Link to this

Love 4 my kids….

Congrats on your kids progress in academics. That is wonderful.

However, keep in mind that your kids might have also excelled in public schools. They could have skipped grades and have been as successful (or even more so?).

One thing that your children are missing out on is the social aspect of school. There is something to be said for kids learning the expectations of students in a classroom setting, how stduents interact with each other - especially students that they do not know, and learning of other cultures/religons/etc.

I would expect for your kids to go to college. Assumming they get in, are they prepared for a classroom setting? Are they prepared for the social interactions on campus?

By jim d

February 12, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

Social Skills and Homeschooling: Myths and Facts

By Jeff

February 12, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

jim:

You really don’t remember my total position on the Integrated Math, do you? (And I think most of its proponents will agree with what I am about to say.)

Skill/drill/KILL in ES. By the time a kid gets out of ES, basic numeracy should be COMPLETELY attained, to the point where the only time a calculator is needed is when you get to more advanced concepts such as the trigonometric functions, logs, etc. Even then, a student should be able to compute the sin of a given angle using SOHCAHTOA, even if they (validly) need a calculator to determine the actual angle measurement. THAT level needs to be in BEFORE they leave 5th grade - and EVERY student needs to have it down to an almost instinctual level.

THEN you come in with a more Integrated Math approach starting in 6th grade on up. That’s when you do what to me is the really cool stuff of Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Prob & Stat, and Calc. Heck, if we do this right, we may even be able to push Linear Algebra, Discreet Mathematics, and Modern Algebra down into the junior/senior HS levels.

Lee:

Teachers concerned with a student knowing content like the back of their hand put us on the moon. Teachers worried about how much time it took to do the homework produced a generation of janitors that rely on government subsidies to live. The simple fact is that math is one of the FEW academic subjects where there really is only one way to truly get a handle on it: multiple repititions. Like an analogy I used earlier, math education really is like training for any particular sport. You do the it OVER and OVER and OVER again, and when you’re SICK of it, you start from the beginning.

HST2:

I’ll grant you that one on combinatorics (though it is more of a Discrete Math issue than a Prob and Stat, though you certainly see it in both). I think we both have valid points in that particular side discussion we’ve been having.

By Lynn

February 12, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

Laura How about a column asking math teachers who are already teaching the new GPS (Cobb) how it is working? Most teachers and parents I hear from say it is not going well. Students who have always made As are now struggling to get a B and most are not understanding the concepts. Teachers, students and parents are frustrated.

By jim d

February 12, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Really want to know whats wrong with public education? Just listen to the kids.

By HS Teacher Too

February 12, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

(Jeff, neither one of us is teaching this year, but I thought I’d tell you about permutations and combinations. If I had your email address I’d tell you this offline, but since I don’t — well, parentheses will have to do! :)
You see combinatorics in nearly every class from Algebra 1 on through. In fact, by the time kids get to Discrete, if they take that route, we gloss over it b/c they have thus far seen it in Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Advanced Algebra and Trig or Pre-Calc, and in Elementary Statistics. Where it OUGHT to be placed is a different matter. Quite honestly, it gets the most attention in CP Algebra 2.)

By Jeff

February 12, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

HST2:

My public email is ajc_jeff@yahoo.com, just FYI. I have a comment about that, but we can continue this discussion via that route if you’d like.

By Love my 4 kids

February 13, 2008 1:32 AM | Link to this

Hi Just me!

Thanks for your response and kind words. As to your question about “socialization” and home schooling, I would say that our current situation offers a setting for “quality socialization” rather than “quantity socialization”. Because I have four children at home, they must daily deal with one another in both academic settings and recreational settings. Conflict resolution is practiced daily. Getting along with children of varying ages is second nature to them. They are also quite adept at dealing with the “boomer generation” since their mother/ teacher qualifies for membership in AARP. As Jim D. pointed out in his home school link, there are many opportunities for outside social contact through sports, home school association activities, church membership, scouting, clubs, etc. This year we have enjoyed swimming, tai-kwon-do, and participating in the First Lego League. We are also active in our church. We are the only home school family in our neighborhood and have helped to socialize several of our public school families’ children. One mother liked to send her four children outside every day so she could play video games. They all came to my house to have a safe place to play with adult supervision. My children enjoyed their friendship and I gave them snacks and creative/educational toys and videos. I made sure they used good manners and no bad language was allowed. Another public school neighbor was busy renovating her house to “flip”, so she would send her 2 and 4 year old outside to play unsupervised. Of course, they ended up at my house where they knew someone would keep a watchful eye on them. Another public school neighbor’s five year old became good friends with my seven year old. They are very responsible parents and we have gotten along well. They have always commented on how well behaved and smart my children were. When the mom was pulling her hair out over trying to help her kindergardener learn to read, I showed her the curriculum I used and she was so impressed, she bought it. Another public school mom on my street was the surrogate mother for her gay brother’s two children. After they were born, she provided daycare for them; as they got older, they would enjoy playing outside with my boys.

As far as exposure to other cultures, we fellowship weekly with Asians, Africans, Latinos, Europeans, etc. through our church family. My husband is bilingual and grew up in another country. Because he travels internationally for his job, we love to study geography and chronological history. As a result, my children understand the historical development of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, ancient Roman and Greek Paganism, as well as modern day Communism and Darwinism. My kids also love learning about American history and how our government works. My 11 year old checks the Wall Street Journal daily to see how Hillary, Obama, John, and Mike are doing in the primaries. I guess the only other socialization category I haven’t covered is “special needs”. Since two of my children would qualify for this category and another home school family we regularly socialize with has one, need I say more? Hmmm, perhaps V for Vendetta could give us some public school socialization pointers on this one? Regarding college preparation, the ability to work independently and to relate well to adults is an asset. This is an area home schoolers often excel at. This year, two of my children are using “sage on the stage” and “drill and kill” video curriculum. It is extremely effective and I balance it with hands on learning and Charlotte Mason methods. I get the best of both worlds! The kids also get used to learning at someone else’s pacing and have “video” students learning along with them. To sum it up, there are many paths to education and the freedom to choose what works best for my family is what I value most. For many people, public school is the only option. I commend the dedicated teachers who try to make the best of it that they can given the political and financial restraints placed on them. God bless you!