Get Schooled

By Jeff

February 7, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

OK, the first question should be what is the role of guidance counselors?

Is it to aid in the college application process, or is it to work with emotional/ behavioral issues?

If the first, why do we have guidance counselors below the HS level?

If the second, why are HS counselors aiding in the college application process?

Personally, I feel that counselors should be working with emotional/behavioral issues and leave the other stuff to the parents.

And while normally I would say that counselors shouldn’t even be doing this, there simply is too great a need and quite frankly too many parents do a p** poor job of making sure their kids won’t try to blow up the school. So put guidance counselors there and tell the kid that rather than blowing up the school, talking to this adult is a MUCH better way of dealing with your frustrations.

By DB

February 7, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

Here’s where I’m grateful for the private school environment: An entire department devoted strictly to college counseling. Seminars during the junior year and a 60 page handbook on college application preparedness. Conferences with the college advisor (who knows your kid, because they are only one of 50) during the junior year to discuss transcripts, areas of weakness or strength, discuss ACT vs. SAT, colleges to consider, etc. Program time workshops on college essays, how to ask for a reference letter, a department that organizes the teacher reference letters, and reminders of deadlines. I LOVE our college counseling office.

However, the work needs to fall on the student — THEY are the ones that are going to college, and THEY are the ones that, next year, are going to be responsible for everything from what to eat for breakfast to their next Econ exam. It’s their responsibility to get this stuff done, if they want to go to college.

My son had a file box by his desk that had folders for each of the colleges he applied to (7), plus all his scholarship applications. He also had deadlines entered on his Gmail calendar two weeks ahead of time. He spent most of August before his senior year getting his applications together for the early action schools, and working on his essays for the regular admissions. Even then, there was still one essay that almost slipped through the cracks — one school required three essays, and he had only done two. The Common Ap was completed, but he was writing furiously at 11:15 pm the day before the deadline for THAT one!

Basically, you can’t wait until their senior year to start addressing this stuff — by then, it’s almost too late. JUNIOR year is when they and their parents need to be prepped. Our school recommends asking for teacher references in spring of their junior year, to give the teachers a chance to write a thoughtful reference, and to have them on file at the beginning of the senior year.

By SET

February 7, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

People who wait for the government to take care of them get what they pay for. The government is just one of many sources of information. When it comes down to planning a course of action smart money uses paid experts.

By JustMe

February 7, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

Give me a break! Here’s an idea: become independent and do some bloody research on your on instead of relying on someone else (the counselor) to do it for you!

There are tons of web sites and other resources to find information on colleges, scholarships, etc. It is just not an acceptable excuse to blame anyone other than the stduent and their parents for “not knowing.”

Kids can go online and find a friend in facebook or myspace in 5 seconds. Certainly they can use the internet to find these resources. Let’s stop providing excuses for lazy kids (and lazy parents).

The ONLY thing that the high school student has to rely on someone else is really the recommendation letter. And, if they wait until the last minute to ask for the letter, that is their fault.

I am so tired of people wanting to shift blame for THEIR falure onto someone else. My favorite sign on an office wall….

“Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.”

By Science teacher

February 7, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

I totally agree with you db. Being a high school teacher I get so many kids coming to me last minute for recommendations that are due in two or less days. Too many kids are being slackers and waiting which causes a huge backup for counselors. If both students and parents took the whole process seriously maybe we wouldn’t have this problem.

By counselor

February 7, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

Jeff, As a counselor, I can tell you that counselors serve different purposes depending on the grade level. In elementary school, the focus is primarily personal/social/emotional/behavioral. In middle school, this remains a major focus, but academics become more of a focus as well. In high school, academics and postsecondary preparation take on a more major role than other issues. But, as with everything, there are differences in counselors roles depending on the school system and individual school.

By catlady

February 7, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

This is an example of the schools beig expected to act as parents (nothing new, right?) And parents SHOULD be the ones assisting their children. Those with limited experience need to educate themselves fast on what is needed and when. Parents with experience, or with social and cultural capital, know what and when. I can foresee, the more schools are taking over this parental function, that they are letting themselves in for lawsuit by parents who don’t think their kids have gotten the right kind of help on this.

I for one think getting the word out early and often to students and parents about the selection and application process, starting in middle school, should suffice to cover the school’s responsibility. That, and publishing to seniors the ABSOLUTE DEADLINES of when school personnel are available for writing recommendations. Put the onus on the student to take care of the application! Then, stick with it. If parents want to hire their own advisors, so be it.

By Old School

February 7, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

I agree with DB as well and practiced what I preached. My girls started applying to colleges before their senior years began. In fact, we spent summers visiting colleges in the Southeast and that helped both narrow down their choices.

Our guidance department does the best it can, given the huge responsibilities that are put upon them. Our faculty helps by acting as advisors to assigned groups (keeping them all 4 years.)

Now, all of you can help me get the word out about the program that enabled us to send our youngest to MTSU and not pay out of state tuition. Let folks know about www.sreb.org and the Academic Common Market. Not every major or every school is available but it sure is worth the effort to find out. (Our daughter was a Recording Industry: Business and Promotions major.) Our guidance department was not familiar with ACM and there may be others that are not as well.

By HS Teacher Too

February 7, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

I’m not a parent of a high schooler, so I don’t feel particularly well qualified to talk about this issue. I’m so far removed from going through the process myself that I can say with certainty that very little is the same today as it was back when I was researching and applying to schools.

However, I have taught in different states (always at the high school level) and grew up in yet another, and without fail, the guidance departments all served slightly different functions and did slightly different tasks. That being said, they all still had some role in the following basic “arenas”: 1. course selection/registration/ensuring that students were on-track for graduation 2. counseling, both ongoing and for crises 3. college application “clearinghouse” of some sort

In some cases there was also a distinct counselor-trained person whose job related strictly to college/career counseling — that is, a scholarship/advice/seminar-holding guru of information without the other departmental duties of the general “guidance counselors.” Often this person was in charge of a “college/career room,” where students had access to books, college catalogs, etc.

I’m the kind of person who will be involved with my child(ren)’s application process, as were my parents with my own process. And yet I can say that I will absolutely seek out any resources I can, beyond my own research and initiative (which, I think, will both be in addition to and to double-check my kids’. They are, after all, still kids.) Why not take advantage of someone else’s expertise in a field to assure you that you’re not missing anything you’d regret?

To the ultimate question of today’s topic, though: the student (and his/her parent(s) are the ones who bear the ultimate responsibility for the deadlines. Plain and simple. If you expect anything more than that, then yes, you need to hire a personal private college counselor who will then have a “duty” to you in particular. High school counselors simply can’t be expected to fill that role.

By blueja

February 7, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

I don’t think kids should have any help with this at all. If preparing an application for college is too big a task, they are not college material anyway. We use up so many resources doing this only to see them flunk out the first year. It’s time we stopped wasting HOPE money on them. Weed them out from the start!

By Tater

February 7, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

JustMe

I am so tired of people wanting to shift blame for THEIR failure onto someone else.

I’m very proud that you are becoming a conservative :-))

By fml

February 7, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Good reading these suggestions. Helpful. We have started very early. My son is in 10th grade and is taking the March SAT. We are reading up on scholarships and schools now.

By JustMe

February 7, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Tater Actually, I am a very proud liberal. Independence is a liberal trait. George Washington was a liberal. The (recent) conservatives have attempted to hyjack it.

By Old School

February 7, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

fml @2:40…encourage your son to take the ACT as well. It is broader based than the SAT and many colleges will take it. Help him develop his resume’ and keep it updated. It will be a source of information that will come in handy when filling out college and scholarship applications. References who have agreed beforehand and have provided their contact information can save him a lot of time and aggravation when deadlines loom.

We found that making a copy of the application kept errors to a minimum on the final copy. Applications are the first impressions that can make or break an opportunity. (Online is great BUT watch those spelling errors!)

By Tater

February 7, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

JustMe

Your comments support the notion of personal accountability and personal responsibility.

Liberal’s don’t support that philosophy so you are leaning towards the light, I mean the right..

I hope that I’ve made a great impact on your transformation..

By jim d

February 7, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Job descriptions may vary but I did a quick google and came up with this

Note that one of the listed duties listed is. h. Provide scholarship information.

Bottom line? if it is in the job description and one is being paid to do it—-do the best damn job you can.

By JustMe

February 7, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Tater

Again, personal accountability is not a ‘conservative’ or ‘right-wing’ owned issue (although they want to claim it as their own).

A true liberal believes in the individual right to do what they see fit for themsleves - such as to have an abortion, to keep a baby, or to give it up for adoption (aka a woman’s choice).

It sounds more to me that you are the one doing the leaning - to the left?

By jim d

February 7, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

LOL,

A “true liberal” is Libertarian.

By Tater

February 7, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Just Me

When I lean it is always to the right :-)

By jim d

February 7, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Tater,

We all know thjat JM isn’t a liberal because a true liberal doesn’t support the status quo of public education.

A true liberal believes it is time to break up the public education monopoly and give all parents the right to decide what school their children will attend. That it is essential to restore choice and the discipline of the marketplace to education. Only a free market in education will provide the improvement in education necessary to enable millions of Americans to escape poverty.

Which makes you and me more liberal than she is.

By Tony

February 7, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

jim d - the description says “provide” information. It does not say look through all the possible scholarships, tell me the deadlines are coming up, have my letter of reference ready, make sure you have an extra application to replace the one I lose, …..

Some people expect the guidance counselor to do it all for them.

Independence and personal accountability are neither liberal nor conservative traits. They are CHARACTER traits. Traits like these tell you about the person. To associate them with a particular political leaning distorts the value of true character.

By jim d

February 7, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

Right you are Tony.

Too bad neither side has the strength of character of the Libertarians.

“Libertarians believe the answer to America’s political problems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America’s founders.”

Source

By JustMe

February 7, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

jd - Interesting point. However, I have not considered that my belief that our society should provide some minimum education to all (via public schools) to be ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative.’ To me, it just makes common sense for the better of our society as a whole.

Tony - I couldn’t agree more. That is why in my initial post on this I said that (recent) conservatives have hyjacked those things (character traits) and claimed them as their own.

By Tater

February 7, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

jim d

A true liberal believes it is time to break up the public education monopoly and give all parents the right to decide what school their children will attend.

JustMe doesn’t believe this. Remember the previous discussions about school choice…

By jim d

February 7, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

Tater,

that is why I said she wasn’t a liberal.

Jm,

I have no problem with public education, just with the government providing it in the monopolistic fashion they do.

By Taz

February 7, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

As a parents with 3 children in College, my kids were held accountable by ME for their deadlines! We started with an 18 Month rolling Calendar their Jr. Yr to track Deliverables/Deadlines. I used Email to send them Tasks and they had to respond to me. We held Weekly Status meetings, etc. to stay on track. We started building the list of potential Schools Jr yr. By Sept Sr yr, the list was reduced to Top 10 schools. By Oct, we had the Final List of 6. I set a limit of 2-Reach schools, 2 Good Possibility, 2-Sure Bets. November before Thanksgiving, was deadline for Recommendations. Apps were mailed first week of December so kids could then focus on Finals. The College App process is no joke and shouldn’t be treated lightly. Some people may think this approach is overboard, but I used the experience as a learning Tool for College life and what an Employer expects from an Employee. In other words, it’s on them for their success. Organization is what saved us. Treating this a long running Project by breaking it down into little pieces made it easier to manage thus reducing stress over the long haul. As irritated as my kids were with me for this approach, they kiss the ground I walk on now because they were able to use the learnings and apply them in their collegiate life for managing Tasks and Time.

Parents, GROW UP! Stop treating kids as if they’re in Kindergarten. They’re not! If they can make decisions about Sex, Driving, Drinking, and master all of the latest Technology Tools, then they can handle the process of getting into College! Game over for expecting Society to raise kids and then parents complain about the outcome.

To sum up, Parents and Kids own this. It’s not fair or right to expect Counselors to own all of the work. The Counselor wasn’t there when Life was created. People need to stop treating them as if they were.

To all of you Educators out there, GOD BLESS YOU for what you have to deal with and yet you continue to do the best you can.

By FreeAdvice

February 7, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this

Okay, so this is my Chipper Jones jump-in-on-a-blog impersonation….

AP, Honors, and IB tracks really help students who plan to apply to selective colleges. Some individuals take AP courses for high school credit in the 8th grade. Many schools look solely at GPA and test scores but if a student has not been challenged, it could really hurt if they are applying to a selective institution.

Considering they are learned, take prep courses for standardized tests such as the ACT/SAT. This may be a little more challenging for people in rural areas (i.e., you may have to do a little traveling) but it will be worth it. Granted, you could also purchase the study guides/books and have your child do it themselves but that would take a lot of discipline. You could even help…you’d cherish the experience. In any event, some kind of prep materials would provide a jump in points on standardized tests.

Make sure the recommendations for your child are not canned. Very few counselors (yes, even those at top private schools) and teachers take the time to write recommendations about the individual. They instead choose to cut and paste the same information, while changing the student’s name. It may be beneficial to go directly to the counselor and tell them this is a concern of yours because we disregard the entire letter and any others written by that individual. In any event, it hurts your child’s file because it does not provide insight into who they are and this is especially true if there are any pre-existing ambiguities, such as lapses in grades, etc. We do not say anything because it would be a waste of resources to track down “canned-letter writers”…but it can really hurt if your child is on the fringes.

Proof their essays and application. At some high schools, the counselors do this but it does not happen as much at larger schools where the counselors only deal with the top 10-25%. You should follow up with your child and have your child follow up with the counselor. You may also want your child to run their essay(s) by the English teacher. None of the individuals above will be “too busy” to help your child. If so, that is a problem….

Private educational consultants are a waste of money. Yes, they may help depending on your situation but they do nothing that the combined efforts of your counselor, yourself, and your child can’t accomplish and everyone will learn a lot more.

Make sure your child is involved in extracurricular activities. This includes some form of community service in addition to what is offered at the school. It can be as little as one hour a week but make sure they are involved. It carries more weight if the involvement begins in the 9th or 10th grade. Just make sure that they are involved.

Alright, that is enough for now. I’ve got to get back to reading applicant files (yes, even this late). Good luck to you all. I’ll periodically check to see if there are any questions (only for a couple of hours or so). Take care.

By Nessa

February 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

I am in 8th grade, and are already taking 2 highschool classes that will count as a highschool credit. All of my other classes are AP classes. Next year I will be going to highschool, and will still be on the AP track in shcool. I have been given good advice from many people, and will soon be making a portfolio for all of my important documents; ie: transcripts, awards, certificates, community service documents, etc… This portfolio will help me out when I start applying for colleges in 11th grade. Some other advice that was given to me was become friends with my counselors; get on their good side. That will help out with recommendations. These were just some tips that I thought were essencial and beneficial to college recommendations.

By Nessa

February 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

I am in 8th grade, and are already taking 2 highschool classes that will count as a highschool credit. All of my other classes are AP classes. Next year I will be going to highschool, and will still be on the AP track in shcool. I have been given good advice from many people, and will soon be making a portfolio for all of my important documents; ie: transcripts, awards, certificates, community service documents, etc… This portfolio will help me out when I start applying for colleges in 11th grade. Some other advice that was given to me was become friends with my counselors; get on their good side. That will help out with recommendations. These were just some tips that I thought were essencial and beneficial to college recommendations.

By WFC

February 8, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

27 years as an AP history teacher and 4 years as a HS administrator here, now retired with a son in the 11th grade. I’ve probably written 1,000 letters of support. Here’s what I know.

By HS Teacher Too

February 8, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

WFC, You’ve got a lot of experience so I don’t pretend to tell you you’re wrong. I don’t think you are. HOWEVER — why automatically give in to Plan B? Why not pursue scholarships, loans, grants…? A school like Duke had much more money to give (in more creative ways than loans) than Maryland, especially.

Also, I firmly believe that there is something to be said for the friends you make and the life experiences you have living in the dorms those first two years of college. Transfer students are rarely able to capture that and have the same kinds of experiences. I understand completely the motivation behind staying two years and transferring, but to not consider the very real benefit of doing the entire four years somewhere is to leave out a very big factor.

Also consider that two years in Georgia schools won’t necessarily transfer in their entirety to non-Georgia schools, so college may well shift from four years to five.

I’m sure this is not news to you — I suppose I am writing it more as a general commentary.

Best of luck to Beau. If those are the schools he’s got on his list, he sounds like a great kid.

By jim d

February 8, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

WFC,

I’m not too sure “ADVISE” is the word I’ve had used. I think it is far more important to allow these kids to pursue their dreams and gain an understanding of what it takes to get there. I kinda like to use the word Encourage. Sure they may make some mistakes along the way, but that too can be a learning expierence.

As for the where they start and where they finish? Well in most instances, I would agree—however, there are exceptions to even that thought. The one that quickly comes to mind (for personal reasons:-) is if one aspires to attend one of the Military Academies at West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs or Kingsport.