Get Schooled

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Laura:

I was wondering if you’d blog about this, as I found the story fairly interesting.

It seems, though, that you have never been inside an alternative school. I believe this practice is fairly common in them, for various reasons. (In the one I went to, it was because a baby had been concieved in the bathroom there. No joke!)

What surprises me is that a mainstream school had the cajones to implement this and appears to be successful in the logistical side as well. (One of the issues in trying to implement things at a mainstream school that have proven successful in an alternative school is that the logisitics often becomes a nightmare. Quite simply, the things at the alternative school tend not to scale up very well. Which could be another pro-smaller schools point in THAT debate…)

By meme

February 5, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

Our uniform dress code help to keep out the gang colors. It is not a 100% solution, but it helps.

By jim d

February 5, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Laura,

I hope you are prepared for all the “not at my school” folks today.

Unfortunately gangs and schools kinda go hand in hand today regardless of the people that prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand. Gang activities within our schools continues to be a growing problem.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

I’m of two mindsets on this. On the one hand, I support being as strict as necessary, whether it is in response to gang action or any other need to tighten up.

On the other hand, there’s a deep sigh and the thought that the gang-bangers will just find another way to bypass the rules. But given that, why not make it as hard as possible? So I suppose as I type this out, I am really only of one mindset after all! Ultimately, schools need to be safe — or as safe as we can make them. Gangs have no place in schools, although clearly they are there. (Just ask SET!)

I went to a middle-class high school with 2200 students in grades 10-12. We had aides stationed in front of each bathroom. You had to have a pass from your teacher to go to the bathroom, and the aides signed you in and signed you out on a clipboard recording sheet; they would come check on you if you were in the bathroom too long. I think at the time it was primarily to police for smokers, not fighters, but it got the point across that the bathroom was not a place to do anything but two functions. Also, interestingly, we had no mirrors in our bathrooms.

I can’t speak about Fayette, but I know that gangs are an increasing problem in Gwinnett. Worse, the individual schools seem to vary in their abilities/wearwithall to deal with the behavior. I can think of two different high schools in Gwinnett in particular; one of which has outstanding “gang control,” and the other has virtually none.

Seems to me that that might be part of the problem?

By jim d

February 5, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Too,

Keep in mind that many of the gangbanger students are coming from gangbanger homes. We have seen problems with these parents showing up at school as well and causing problems. Too bad they don’t have to go get a key to the school before showing up.

JM, C’mon here’s a real opportunity to fault SOME parents, actually ANY PARENT that doesn’t know what the kids are into and all of those that do and do nothing.

By Concerned Mom

February 5, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

When I was a substitute teacher in a metro Atlanta school system for Elementary and Middle Schools, I had to escort the kids with my school appointed key for restroom breaks. I never asked why but I saw it as a safety issue. These kids were not necesssarily unruly but I believe it kept the incidents like these mentioned low.

By The answer

February 5, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

I’ve read that MOST of these gang members are Hispanic. The answer is to deport them and their families back to Mexico. Problem solved. If they come back then shoot them. Other countries do it.

By Teacher, Too

February 5, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

There are gangs in every color/race. When I taught in Texas, we had black, Hispanic, Asian, and white gangs.

If you don’t believe that there is gang activity in your school, talk to your local police gang task force. They are everywhere- spreading like weeds (or kudzo here in the South).

By teach1

February 5, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

I had to talk with my daughter just last week because her Henry County HS said the same thing. No bathrooms between classes- before school, after school, and lunch only.

While I understand reasons behind these limits, my daughter was afraid she might have to use the bathroom during and unauthorized time and she would get a ISS. Being a teen age “girl” with new girl issues you can imagine her concerns. Because she is a good kid, and had never been in trouble and has good grades, I told her to explain to her teacher that she had an emergency and it was important for her to take care of her “business”. The thought of discussing this with a teacher was not appealing to her but I had to tell her for us to stand behind her when she walked out of the classroom if the teacher denied her, she had to make it clear to the teacher how important it was for her to go now! I am hoping I never have to go up to the school to dispute an ISS note for using the bathroom, but I will if it comes to that.

It is ridiculous that I have to assure a good kid that she can indeed go to the bathroom when necessary. I hate that good people are restricted becasue of the few bad apples.

By John

February 5, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

Hey, how about this novel idea; find out who the gang leader kids are and send them away for good.

By JustMe

February 5, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

When raising children, I believe that the current philosophy is to allow as much latitude as possible - until proven that they cannot manage. And, this is what is happening in this case.

Of course, teachers and administrators don’t have a problem with any student going to the bathroom as needed, any time. However, problems arise when student(s) abuse this. They go an excess number of times for a variety of reasons - to get out of class, to go visit a friend, to go to their cars, or whatever. And of course, when an idle student roams the halls, bad things can happen.

That is the case with this fight - gang related or otherwise.

The administration did the right thing on tightening down on restroom times and places.

This blog is a great example of misplacing and confusing multiple issues: gangs, fights, and what to do when rules are broken.

If there are gangs in schools, and the members follow all rules, aren’t hurting anyone, are getting their education, and so on, I highly doubt anyone would care that there are ‘gangs in schools.’

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

teach1:

According to the US Supreme Court, students do NOT have the right to go to the restroom whenever they want. If the school (or even the teacher) has a policy such as at your daughter’s school and she violates it, they can justifiably punish her any way they choose. If they determine the appropriate punishment for this crime is a day or more of ISS, it is within their rights to enforce said punishment.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

teach1: I too “hate that good people are restricted becasue of the few bad apples.”

Therefore, I’m glad you agree with me that there should be ZERO limits on private gun ownership, up to and including ‘military-grade’ weapons.

I’m also glad that you agree with me that protesters should not have designated areas to protest in.

Furthermore, I’m glad that you agree with me that the government has ZERO business telling me what I can and cannot do on my own property.

Thanks for the support!

By Sarah

February 5, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

You would not believe how many parents say their children are so wonderful even when their child is caught on camera doing something wrong. Many children don’t act the same at home and at school. I have some whose parents want to talk about how terrible their children are when they are great in my classroom and of course how great they are at home and they are totally disruptive in my classroom.

Gangs are everywhere and in every ethnic group. Check out your children’s friends both at school and in the neighborhood.

By Teacher, Too

February 5, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Maybe instead of hiring graduation coaches and parent liasons, we should hire bathroom monitors. I am serious. I can tell you that bathrooms are routinely destroyed by students- graffiti, mirrors written on with permanent markers, toilets stopped up, feces smeared on stall walls, doors torn off hinges, paper shoved up the hand dryers—- you name it, it’s happened.

Maybe this happens more frequently in lower-achieving schools- I don’t know. My experience has been in lower-achieving schools, and I’ve seen it happen in two different counties.

It makes you wonder what kind of environment these kids live in that allows for this kind of behavior.

By V for Vendetta

February 5, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

First off, I just want to say that there are NO gangs in my school. NONE. ZERO. It is an impossibility, like finding the end of pi or proving the existence of God.

Yeah, right.

There is a rather simple answer to this problem, one that needs to be implemented across metro-Atlanta: when a student is written up (or the equivalent discipline referral, whatever it’s called), if that student is a proven gang member he should be expelled from the county schools PERMANENTLY. End of story. I don’t care if he gets written up for saying one bad word, dress code, tardies, whatever. The end result should be the same.

Of course, that will never happen, because so many people believe that school should be a “right.” When we stop misguided beliefs such as the “right” to school — even when a student proves time and again not to care about his “right” — maybe then we’ll make some progress.

Bottom line: these students should be eradicated like the rats they are. In a perfect world they wouldn’t spare the bullet to put in all of their miserable heads. It’s a disgusting, pathetic lifestyle that shouldn’t be tolerated.

The sad thing is that we have people in this world who feel that way towards other groups who do nothing wrong. Oh well, I guess the gangs aren’t going anywhere.

By teach1

February 5, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

Sarah: I know my child is not a problem because I talk to my child’s teachers regularly. I am not blind or assuming.

Jeff: I don’t know how to coment to you here. Please understand we are talking about using a restroom not military combat! Regardless of what the US Supremem Court has ruled, would you want that poor girl to bleed all over herself or even worse yet have an upset stomach and lose bowel control? It happens to the best of us.

As for your other comments, you know the point I was trying to make. Take care of the trouble makers -kick them out of the school completely. No one wants to deal with them. Harsher punishments may reduce the crimes. ISS to a gang member is NOTHING!

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

jim d, you’re exactly right. I just hadn’t thought about gang-banger parents. On the other hand, can’t they be removed from school property as well? I wonder how outward and explicit their gang affiliations would have to be, and what they would have to do, to be escorted off school grounds.

Jeff— can you cite the case you are referencing? Thanks!

Teach1 — I would even add that ISS to a gang member is a status symbol. It brings notice to their gang affiliation, which as I understand it, is a good thing in their eyes.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

teach1:

Ever heard the saying “give a rat a cookie and he’ll want some milk”? (Also said “give an inch and they’ll take a mile”)

The lesson applies here. Give your daughter permission to break this rule, and she’s going to want permission to break another.

If a teacher gives one kid permission to break the rule for ANY reason (even a perfectly valid one, and I’m not denying that ‘female issues’ constitute a legitimate issue), and soon you’ll have to disband the policy completely.

A better solution is to stick to your guns and teach people - male and female - to anticipate problems and handle them before they become problems.

By Sarah

February 5, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

Teach 1, I was actually talking about my nephew. He was trouble at home but wonderful at school. Sorry if I hit so close to home.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

HST2:

It was a case out of AL - Birmingham, I believe. Boyett V Tomberlin Happened back in 95/96. AL Supreme Court made the ruling, US Supreme Court refused to reverse.

This is an article with the basic outline of the case.

By Tater

February 5, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

Not that this will ever happen, but in a perfect tater world:

Kick the persons who intimidate, destroy, or refuse to work within the guidelines of the school OUT

Then, have each school district work out a tent city http://www.mcso.org/index.php?a=GetSubModule&sm=JailFacilities&mn=OurJails

Work out security with the local agencies to monitor the students ie: hoodlums to make sure they comply with the rules.

I know it will never happen. Our country has become a nation of whiners.

I don’t think the good students (the ones who behave)should have to beg to go to the bathroom.

By Tater

February 5, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Forgot to mention. The GANG colors in Sheriff Joe’s jail is PINK

Let’s see the hoodlums wear pink pants below their butt…

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Jeff. I’m going to pull it up on Westlaw and try to read the actual case. :)

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Tater, The schools already have the tent cities. They call them trailers. Only thing is they don’t segregate the population quite yet… but what is quite an intriguing idea!

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Tater, The schools already have the tent cities. They call them trailers. Only thing is they don’t segregate the population quite yet… but what an intriguing idea!

By jim d

February 5, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Too,

Striking a principal will get them a ticket out.

By Erin

February 5, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

OK, Jeff … I follow your reasoning and agree that kids should anticipate issues and needs in terms of going to the bathroom, but there are VERY legitimate reasons why a girl (irregular cycles are a fact of life for MANY teenage girls) or why ANYONE (in the case of illness) might have to use the restroom.

Either that, or have a girl humiliated or have to call maintenance in to clean up vomit, right?

I can see that breaking the rule even for these reasons would indeed be giving that proverbial inch, but surely there’s some common middle ground?

I mean, really, doesn’t the solution come down to a lack of common sense when you really break it down to the simplest point? And by that, I mean on the part of the students (anticipating needs) AND on the part of the school and its teachers/staff.

By Erin

February 5, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

OK, Jeff … I follow your reasoning and agree that kids should anticipate issues and needs in terms of going to the bathroom, but there are VERY legitimate reasons why a girl (irregular cycles are a fact of life for MANY teenage girls) or why ANYONE (in the case of illness) might have to use the restroom.

Either that, or have a girl humiliated or have to call maintenance in to clean up vomit, right?

I can see that breaking the rule even for these reasons would indeed be giving that proverbial inch, but surely there’s some common middle ground?

I mean, really, doesn’t the solution come down to a lack of common sense when you really break it down to the simplest point? And by that, I mean on the part of the students (anticipating needs) AND on the part of the school and its teachers/staff.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Okay, Jeff, I read the case. The Supreme Court denied certiorari, which isn’t quite the same as standing behind the Alabama court’s decision.

What the case actually says is that the teacher (and principal and school administration) were immune from tort liability because they did not act in bad faith. The facts of the case showed that the student had been somewhat disruptive and it was not unreasonable for the teacher to be unaware that the student truly had “an emergency.” Given the facts and the reasonableness of the teacher’s behavior – her use of discretion – the court found that the teacher had not acted in bad faith.

That being said, I’m not convinced that an arbitrary rule forbidding bathroom use that is blindly adhered to without room for teacher discretion would stand up in court. In fact, the court said that in order for a student’s case to succeed, they must show that the person who deprived him/her of the right to use the facilities did so in bad faith or with deliberate indifference to his or her rights. The key, of course, is building in the teacher discretion to whatever rule the school puts in place regarding bathroom use. I grew up quite modest, and would have been mortified to have to approach a male teacher and explain WHY I needed to use the restroom. I’d have sooner died. But on the other hand, I was a good kid, and I could have simply asked, “may I use the restroom, it’s an emergency?” and I can’t envision any of my teachers, male or female, denying that request. Naturally, if they had, I would have acted according to what I needed to do. In this day and age, I’d imagine that if I did leave the room, I’d immediately race to the office in tears, or call my mom from my cell phone. (Trying to revisit 16-year-old me, long before the age of cell phones!)

In any event, I think the way you summed up the rights of the teachers to enforce a rule without exception is mistaken, and actually would subject the teacher/school/system to liability.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

jim d, Obviously! I was thinking more in terms of an angry parent as you suggested coming “guns blazing” (perhaps a poor choice of expression?!) into the office yelling … you said “causing problems” and I didn’t quite take that to the level of physical violence. I’m wondering at what point the parents’ obvious gang affiliation is sufficient to have them removed when they themselves are not students — and not subject to the zero-tolerance that GCPS touts.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

Erin:

Without giving too much away that could embarass people I know very well, suffice it to say that I am quite acquainted with irregular periods. But in my experience, RARELY does it go from nonexistent to gushing within 50 to 90 minutes. Meaning that the lady in question should be able to detect it and deal with it during the next available break.

In my own experience with stomach problems - and I’ve had to deal with them in nearly any situation imaginable - I’ve learned that it also holds for those issues that RARELY does it go from detectable to uncontrollable within 50 to 90 minutes.

But the 50 to 90 minutes itself is misleading. For an issue to be able to go on for that long indicates that it was detectable at or before the point where the student walked in the classroom in the first place. Which means that unless the school is under lockdown for some reason, the student in question could easily take a tardy from class to deal with an issue and avoid the ISS penalty, or at least one would assume.

The only possible middle ground I could see would set an arbitrary time at the beginning/ ending of class where students were ONLY allowed to go to the restroom for x minutes every interval, with x spanning a minutes before the end of class, b minutes between classes, and c minutes after the beginning of the next class. But assuming a 5/5/5 breakdown, that is 15 minutes every hour that someone would be forced to monitor each restroom in the school, compared to 5 in the current system. At 5/10/5, you have doubled the amount of time from the current to the new. In any case, seeing as how one would assume administrators and/ or planning period teachers would be doing the monitoring, I think the current system is plenty generous.

By Tater

February 5, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too

I’m really fed up with the amount of problems that schools have to deal with. Teachers are supposed to teach not deal with misguided students. (I really wanted to use another word)

It’s just time to stop talking about what to do with these hoodlums and actually DO something…

Behavior modification. That’s what the tent cities would do. It works in Maricopa County Arizona for inmates, there is no reason it wouldn’t work for the students who want to be inmates by their behavior.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

HST2:

The Court could have overturned the AL Court and did not. Therefore the AL Case is valid case law.

All a teacher has to do is say “no” when permission is requested and they are using their discretion while upholding school policy.

I had a simple policy in my classroom: bring a doc note saying you had to be allowed to go to the restroom every x number of minutes, and I’d let you go. Otherwise, don’t even bother asking. Know how many of my 200 students ever gave me a doc note? NONE

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Tater, I don’t disagree one bit. I taught at a GCPS high school where I saw — fortunately, not in my class — thugs (I won’t even deign to call them students) who would, when given a test, tear it up, throw it out, and go back to their desks to sleep for the remaining 55 minutes. Why? WHY ARE WE PAYING FOR THEM?! The kids knew the system. They knew they had to be in school. The kid I am thinking of in particular had failed this same math class three times. But he had to be in school. (Why not an alternative school, I don’t understand — and that’s another issue. These kids skate by and stay in the “real” schools too long.) Anyway, he knew the school had “no choice,” the teacher certainly had no say, and he wasted everyone’s time and money. It boiled my blood. If we can’t get rid of these kids altogether, $%*$^@#!! they ought to be in pink uniforms in the tent city.

By Tater

February 5, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff I really don’t want you to take offense at your 2:33pm post…however… do you realize what logistical nightmare it would be to figure out this 5/5/5 or 5/10/5 potty break schedule?

Like everything in life you need to set boundary’s. It should be the discretion of the teacher to determine if a particular student has an issue that requires him/her a more frequent use of the facilities. If abuse is suspected, the teacher can communicate with the student about the expectations of the class and what is required to be an active learner…

We are getting off comment on the Keeping gangs out blog trying to figure out how much time should be allocated for bathroom issues…

By Tony

February 5, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Schools have the right to limit student movement within a school building. This school has acted reasonably by establishing a policy that is designed to improve student safety. It is not unreasonable in that it has a procedure for extreme circumstances of need.

The influence of gangs can be felt even into the elementary schools. There is no doubt in my mind that gangs recruit the younger kids to do their dirty work. The gang leaders have to have initiates and they target kids with weak family ties. Educators have to keep their eyes out for gang activity.

I don’t think we need any more zero tolerance policies, either. But schools are no place for gang activity. Now for the real kicker - when a kid gets kicked out of school for behavior like this, it is a bad mark for the school! We are darned if we do and darned if we don’t. Go figure.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I didn’t say the AL case isn’t valid precedent. (In Alabama.) I simply said that saying the Supreme Court upheld it is not quite the same as denying cert. I stand by my position that arbitrarily saying no despite evidence of extenuating circumstances is not likely to stand up in court.

On a separate issue, I don’t think individual teachers have the right to require a doctor’s note. I imagine, based on the schools where I have taught, that a teacher with such a rule would be (no pun intended) overruled by the administration.

Finally, with regard to the female “gushing” you described earlier: it is entirely possible, particularly among high school girls with irregular cycles, to be taken quite by surprise in the dead-middle of a 55-minute class. And no, being forced to wait the remainder of class when you are otherwise “unprepared” for your sudden circumstances, is not fair, comfortable, or anything else short of cruel and unusual.

By Joy in Teaching

February 5, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

The absolute WORST parent conference I’ve ever had to sit through was with a parent who was more concerned with bathroom issues than she was with the fact that her child had a 46 average in my English class.

Yikes.

What I have done ever since to avoid anything like that ever again is to take every single class to the restroom every single period. It’s cut down on a LOT of problems…and its especially helpful now that I’m teaching in a trailer.

I did have a parent who was concerned a couple of weeks ago because I did not let her daughter go to the restroom TWENTY minutes after we returned from the restoom. Her excuse? She didn’t have to go then. The parent apologized profusely after finding that out.

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

HST2:

If she’s going from zero indications to gushing within any given 55 minute period, she needs to go to the doc, because other things are going on. And that would generate a doc’s excuse. As I’ve said, if there is a doc excuse, I’ll allow it.

As far as it being fair: It is EXCEEDINGLY fair. She is being treated exactly like each of the other 29 students in the room, and BETTER than the teacher, who only has an opportunity to go twice a day. Uncomfortable I’ll grant. But I’ll point out even there that teachers have it FAR worse in that regard. (For example: At Newton, I had precisely ZERO breaks between 8:15 and 12:45. Students there had FIVE.)

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

This is the last I will address this issue, as it is far off-topic: I did not say the hypothetical girl in question had to be “gushing,” simply that it is entirely possible to be surprised, and it is not worthy of medical attention either to be surprised in such a manner, or that such a girl might bleed through her pants/skirt, etc. even without “gushing.” It’s a simple fact of life. When the time comes that you either have a menstrual cycle, or are an OB-GYN, I will consider you better able to discuss it.

It is, however, UNFAIR to keep such a girl in the room, because she is NOT in the same circumstances as the other students in the room. Blind, uniform adherence to a rule for the sake of adhering to the rule without taking into account that all of the people subjected to the rule are not in the same circumstances, is not fair in any sense.

As for teacher breaks, it is not appropriate to compare students to teachers. And a teacher in a similar emergency can ask the neighboring teacher to come watch her room for a moment.

I don’t anticipate that we will be able to agree on this issue of fairness. You have made it clear over your postings to this blog that you are a firm believer in “a rule is a rule.” I disagree with that perspective. We will have to agree to disagree. With regard to menstrual cycles, however, I do find your claims to be offensive. And I will leave it at that.

I’m done with this topic.

Let’s get back to talking about gang presence in the schools.

By JustMe

February 5, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Tater - Amen. Poor student behavior is a (if not THE) major distractor to teaching and learning in school. If you can find a work-able solution to that, you are GOD in my eyes!

Joy in Teaching - IMHO, you have ‘given up’ managing the students when you allow them to go to the rest room every day in the middle of your period. I am sure that there is ample time for those students to use the rest room before your class. And, if a person (child, adult, whomever) cannot hold it for one period then there is something really medically wrong that needs to be addressed.

I allow 4 rest room passes per semester. That’s it. If they use those up, I want a doctor note. Those 4 should be used for emergencies only. Funny thing is this…. students will ‘get it’ that I am serious about it and go before my class. Then, they ‘use up’ their 4 to roam halls or whatever. My point is that these students are not dumb. They (some, not all) simply want out of the classroom to visit friends, socialize with the secretary, or whatever, and will use whatever excuse they can to achieve that. By you ‘giving’ a ‘restroom break’ every day during your period, IMHO, you are giving in to their desire to get out of your class (although at least you are managing it).

By Tater

February 5, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

JustMe

The answer is in my 1:30 post… Don’t want to be God in your eyes just cute :-))

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

HST2:

OK, want to get into the sexist remarks you are making? Because I GARAUNTEE YOU that a male teacher could not do the same. And I’ve been in situations where I REALLY needed to. (Suffice it to say I realized just recently that I may well be lactose intolerant, and back then I had cereal every day for breakfast.) It is just as embarrassing for a male teacher to be in such a situation as it is for a female student - if not more so. TRUST me. Been there. Done that.

This ‘rule is a rule’ approach really is something that needs to be gotten back to in American society. It is at the heart of EVERYTHING bad we are seeing now. And that includes gang violence. When I was growing up, and even now, I was taught that you obeyed rules, NO MATTER WHAT, or you suffered the consequence. If you broke the rule, you accepted the consequence without complaint. Now, before and/ or after you broke the rule, feel free to work to have the rule changed. But if you violate it while it is in effect, don’t come crying to mom and dad about it. Because when they find out you broke it, you broke one of their rules as well and you’re going to suffer even more consequences.

By Curriiculum Director

February 5, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher, too….thanks!

*When the time comes that you either have a menstrual cycle, or are an OB-GYN, I will consider you better able to discuss it. *

I couldn’t have said it better!

By Jeff

February 5, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Curriculum:

Fine. When you have a c* I’ll let you decide when to kill my child.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I shouldn’t have alluded to a female teacher when I gave my example, because it is certainly true of both sexes. I didn’t realize I appeared sexist when I made that comment. However, a male teacher could come ask another teacher to cover his class for a moment. No reason necessary. I’ve never once asked a teacher “why” when they’ve asked me to cover a class, and likewise I have never been asked “why” when I have asked a teacher to cover my class. Please stop a moment to realize that your experiences are not always reflective of everyone’s experiences.

All of this stems from the question about whether the bathroom policies are too much. I stand by my original answer, which is no, they are not.

SET, where are you today? I can only imagine what you could add to the discussion! Surely what they do in LA at least attempts to curb behavior, right?

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I shouldn’t have alluded to a female teacher when I gave my example, because it is certainly true of both sexes. I didn’t realize I appeared sexist when I made that comment. However, a male teacher could come ask another teacher to cover his class for a moment. No reason necessary. I’ve never once asked a teacher “why” when they’ve asked me to cover a class, and likewise I have never been asked “why” when I have asked a teacher to cover my class. Please stop a moment to realize that your experiences are not always reflective of everyone’s experiences.

All of this stems from the question about whether the bathroom policies are too much. I stand by my original answer, which is no, they are not.

SET, where are you today? I can only imagine what you could add to the discussion! Surely what they do in LA at least attempt to curb behavior, right?

By Curriculum Director

February 5, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Fine. When you have a c I’ll let you decide when to kill my child*

Excuse me? What are you talking about? All I am saying is that there are some things that you just can’t understand unless you have experienced them.

There was absolutely no call for your comment. You can certainly dish it out better than you can take it!

By Erin

February 5, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

Wow … OK. Thanks for responding, Jeff. And I do understand your point, but I also must say I agree, too, with some of the others who’ve noted that a girl can be very much surprised with her period and it does NOT need to be “gushing” to cause a problem.

Suffice it to say white pants, plus a very embarrassed 13-year-old girl do not make for a very good combination.

Sigh.

It’s just really too bad a few bad apples can ruin it for everyone. I’ve been there and trust me, it isn’t fun. I never made a huge deal of having to go to the bathroom (I NEVER tried to go during class), but there was a time when I really needed to and luckily my teacher understood.

These days, I wouldn’t be allowed to go and would probably die of embarrassment.

Surely there’s a better answer out there, but what can you do? You can’t break the rules. Some kids will abuse every little thing, no matter what. It’s just sad that on occasion, there are people who TRULY need something and either aren’t allowed or can’t because of the bad kids.

By HS Teacher Too

February 5, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I think there is merit in your lament about a general problem of excuse-making and a declining adherence to rules. Everything seems to have exceptions, and sometimes it amounts to little moret than whining. I agree with that.

What I disagree with is a refusal to acknowledge that there are times when exceptions do require bending the rules, and sometimes exceptions have merit.

I was thinking about this on my drive home. I’m no expert on the Bible, but even the Bible has exceptions to rules. “Thou shalt not kill” is countered by an “eye for an eye.” Similarly, even murder is “excused” when it occurs in self-defense. So to take your argument to the extreme — which I believe you are championing — would mean that even people who defend themselves would be subject to the same punishment (indeed, more severe punishment) as their attackers. I can’t say I support that.

So, back to gangs: I think that we need strict, even draconian (to use a word you love) rules. But I think it is foolishness to not acknowledge that there ought to be written into those very rules a caveat allowing for teacher discretion.

By jj

February 5, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Most kids that go down this route are looking to get out of school. The dumbest school policy is the OSS. These kids don’t want to be there, so why send them home to get into more trouble? Give them all ISS and if they can’t behave there, send them to increasing behavior modification institutions until they either decide they like it in jail or they want to behave. Enough of this crap where they are released to the streets to certainly end up in jail or dead.

By SET

February 6, 2008 1:45 AM | Link to this

Gee, where do we start.

Good schools are good because of the people in them. Goes the same for bad schools.

As the readers of this blog know I believe in segregated schools - segregated by ability and performance. The gang problem we seem to be speaking of isn’t university bound high school fraternities who function exactly like gangs - it’s underclass gangs. Getting rid of them is simple. You set up admission requirements calculated to keep the underclass out. No underclass, reduced and managable gang problem.

The underclass gets schools alright - just like the employment that awaits them, their schools should have maximum surveilance and supervision and minimum autonomy. And that needs to be carefully explained to them up front. If they want something different in life they’d better improve their test taking skills and deportment.

As far as the bathroom thing - just like in the underclass workforce (Wal*Mart??) they’d better learn to go on schedule. Too Bad, So Sad.

The good schools in life, like the good jobs in life - are reserved for some people, not the peons.

If this kind of blunt talk ticks of some of our readership maybe that can get a clue of how the black educators ran the black segregated schools in the 1940’s & 1950’s when they prepared the black students of that day to make the best of the life they had in the Brave New World of that day.

I recently attended a funeral of a 94 year old retired black school teacher (distant relative) who taught segregated St Louis Public Schools for 25 or more years. I sat there hearing people speak about the way she ran her classes and how *”you can’t do things like that nowadays”. She and her teacher friends and relatives were charming and terribly blunt. They also could intimidate and would deliver on threats or promises. They taught school but also worked in the WWII factories for a time. They made their students see the world and see themselves in it. Today we seem afraid to make the kids see life as it is and tell they will sleep in the bed they make.

We still have segregated schools here in CA. It’s just that the lefty politically correct teachers now let the kids run the school rather than the school run the kids and their parents. If students don’t perform well, tell them and move them out to where they can achieve lower expectations that don’t include getting pregnant and going to prison. Poverty has nothing to do with this. The students the late schoolteacher had in St Louis didn’t have modern kitchen appliances or TV’s and they took the bus. They were poor during a poor age.

Yet now after all this progress a huge number of our public school kids have reservation numbers for the prisons and early graves.

So here we are talking about what to do about the gang problem in our public schools…

What I say to do is to designate the schools in the district as good, better and best and start posting application forms for the best school, and start demoting/transferring students out of better schools to the “good” school which should feature teacher’s aides with German Shepards. Tell all the students & parents what you require of them to be allowed to stay at each school. Give them all hoops to jump through and keep them busy. Talk to the gangs about joining the football team or something.

It may not be a perfect solution, but I think we need to change the way the urban schools are run and run the students like the hamsters they are.

By WFC

February 6, 2008 8:12 AM | Link to this

JUSTME is on the money. The “I need to go to the bath room” problem has been around FOREVER because kids want to hang with their friends between classes rather than take care of business. Also, some kids are shy about such things. Also, some kids want to wander rather than be in class. The gang thing makes it more dangerous.

Here was my “rule.” You get TWO free go to the bathroom trips per semester. After that, each one costs a thirty minute detention. Guys with true emergencies never complained about detentions. The sweathogs always did.

By chris

February 6, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Well what would you do if that was your kid, getting initiated in a gang. You would ask the school why was this permitted, so thats why this school is taking precautions.

By chris

February 6, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Well what would you do if that was your kid, getting initiated in a gang. You would ask the school why was this permitted, so thats why this school is taking precautions.

By Lee

February 6, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

Actually, this is not a school problem, it is a police problem. Schools always try to keep control, but they don’t have the option of arrest and physical restraint. What is needed are more cops at the school, and judges who sentence gang members to reform school when they distrupt the school or attack other students. Harrasing a teacher or younger student is one thing. Harrassing a police officer is something else. No rent-a-cops. No teacher patrols. Real cops in real unifomrs with real arrest powers. If suppressing high spirits between classes is the result of a police presence, then it is worthwhile when it protects the teachers and the students. When the students claen up their act, the police can leave. And if this means more cops and higher taxes, then that is the cost of gangs. Besides, its a lot cheaper than dead students or injured teachers and staff.

By Teacher, Too

February 6, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

If a kid is getting initiated into a gang, the parents better be asking why is my kid wanting to be in a gang? And, what am I going to do about it.

By Lee

February 6, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

Hmmm, there are two Lee’s posting.

Regarding gangs, I would bet that the leaders of these so-called “gangs” are the troublemakers that the school should have dealt with years ago in elementary school. The bottom line is that schools have to get these cronic troublemakers segregated from the general population and into a controlled environment. Pink slips, slaps on the wrist, and early intervention strategies aren’t gonna cut it.

Jeff’s comments on the female menstrual cycle is akin to me commenting on the physics of lunar orbit. We know nothing of what we speak. ‘Nuff said on that subject.

As far as Fayette County requiring students to go to the office to use the visitor’s bathroom, they are merely addressing the symptom instead of the problem. The school should be working to get the hard core troublemakers out of the general student population. Cut the head off the snake, so to speak.

By thomas

February 6, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

Lee said almost everything that needs to be said on this “gang/closed restroom issue.”

I was shocked at the amount of postings (initiated by one person, mind you) over students being allowed to used a restroom. The issue is not kids going to the bathroom. The issue is the thuggish gangs that are allowed to roam and terrorize the school.

Locking restrooms is the weak kneed response to a problem the administration really doesn’t want to to deal with. Why? Because it’s “political.” For them, the “solution” to a gang beatdown in a restroom is to close all restrooms. How draconian.

[See the February 6 topic of discipline disparity for more insight as to why the Fayette High School is scared to tackle the gang issue]

By Jeff

February 6, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

thomas:

Guess what?

Draconian WORKS!!!!! Every single time, draconian works. Without fail, draconian works. When nothing else works, draconian works. Well all else has FAILED, draconian WORKS.

By SET

February 6, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Thomas has the right idea. The schools need to be fumigated against the gangs. The bathroom abuse problem is interesting but as long as a single gang member walks the halls no one is safe including staff.

As to Jeff’s comment about Draconian works… How about we have the kids strip searched and all with gang related tattoos - and any tattoos - get relocated to a gang permitted school. That’s one way to start fumigating the place.