Get Schooled

By 5th yr in Hell

January 31, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Where are these kids and why can’t I be teaching them?

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

I always challenged my students to be better than ME, and I will do the same with my kids.

Am I THE best academically? Not by any stretch of the imagination. But I DID accomplish more than most. Never less than a B before 8th grade (C in Algebra, would get a D in Algebra II and those would be my two lowest grades in my pre-college career). School spelling bee champion in 8th grade after placing within the top 5 in my school for the three years before that. (Was 4th in the county that year.) I was in the IB program, followed by completing three SS classes within one semester and taking a science class that most HS students have never heard of (Oceanography). During my junior year, I started college, where throughout the rest of my HS career I maintained no less than a 3.5 GPA in college (4.0 one semester). I worked in a collegiate academic honor society, where I rose to both chapter President and Regional Vice President (well, that is what the position is known as now - it wasn’t at the time). In my programming classes (my concentration within my major), I never got less than an A on any given test prior to the advanced theory classes, and even then I never got less than a C.

So my standard is relatively high, and FAR beyond 90% of the students I encountered while I was teaching. Not because they aren’t CAPABLE. Because they don’t have the DESIRE.

As Jaime Escalante says: You just need GANAS.

By 5th yr in hell

January 31, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Jeff, try inflating your student’s ego, rather than your own. I got to a d in algebra in your diatribe and my eyes began to roll…I can onlt imagine what a highschooler’s response would be…it’s nice that you have high standards, but the majority of student with their lack of proper parental care or overindulgence by their parents makes any form of normalcy (either in a 45 min or a 90 min setting) almost impossible. Especially if your following the manual we’re all supposed to follow….

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

Laura, I believe that much of the pressure comes from the increased population — I’ve been reading lately that this year’s entering freshman class is the largest ever at our nation’s colleges and unversities. The more selective schools are not increasing their enrollments to correspond with the increase in applicants. So to gain acceptance requires being that much more outstanding.

Locally, we can add to that phenomenon the effects of the HOPE. The number of students wishing to stay in-state has increased, and in turn the competition has increased to get into the better colleges.

I’m not convinced there is anything wrong with being motivated overall, but I do see that we are pushing kids to be Mozart, Michael Jordan, and Einstein by the time they are 15, just to get a good “summer job,” to get into a good college … I suppose it’s the trickling down that worries me. I wonder what the numbers are for when/if the college-age population decreases in size, and what might happen when (if?) it does.

On the other hand, there ARE kids who are, by their nature, going to strive to do the best at everything, take the hardest classes, etc. It’s only when they do that at the expense of their health that I think we ought to worry. Otherwise, we ought to be thanking our lucky stars that, despite everything that’s wrong with education today, they still exist!!

By jim d

January 31, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Must be from teechrs cause parnts ain’t smart nuff ta know s_it from shinola.

By Truth Filter

January 31, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Frankly, I think it’s parents who want their kids to be the best, best, best — at all costs. The parents, mostly, are well-intentioned: They want their kids to have all the opportunities they had — or didn’t have.

But the result is that kids don’t get to be kids sometimes. They are over-scheduled and over-pressurized. People can blame NCLB or whatever policy they want. But it starts at home!

By WaltonTeacher

January 31, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

“Where does this increasing pressure to perform come from?” Well, I can tell were it doesn’t come from; The City of Monroe’s water supply. My 3rd and 4th grade students have no desire to succeed. The are really pitiful. Bless their hearts… Pride in achievement, self respect, and goal setting are completely foriegn concepts to these children. Motivation, other than for a piece of candy, does not exist in their world. Over achievers are the last thing on my list to worry about.

By V for Vendetta

January 31, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

These types of kids understand that education for education’s sake is one of the best attitudes a person can have in his life. If I can impart that same attitude in just a few kids, as wel as my own, then this has all been worthwhile.

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

5th year:

My point is simple: I achieved FAR more than 90% of the students I had ever thought about TRYING to, and I hold that what I did was nothing special. It was EASY - for anyone. As long as you want it.

The bar I set truly ISN’T that high. Literally THOUSANDS match or beat it every year. Yet you mention it to today’s crop of K-12 kids, and most of them think you’re a freakin’ rocket scientist.

I long for the day - and we once had it - where someone that accomplishes all that I did is looked down on as an UNDER achiever.

By Old School

January 31, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

In my opinion, to find the differences between high achievers and over achievers, one must look at the whole kid. A high achiever might just love learning, be curious, love reading and experimenting. That kid will also be well-rounded socially.

I think over-achievers are driven by the attention their efforts gain. They may not be as picky about quality as they are quantity.

Remember now, this is my opinion and is NOT based on research.

By Jason

January 31, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

“I always challenged my students to be better than ME, and I will do the same with my kids.”

It’s “better than I.” Hope you don’t teach English.

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Jason:

According to the rules of English I learned years ago, one uses the word “me” to refer to ones self in the predicate of a sentence, which is where said me occurs.

If the rules have changed since I was last in school, I do apologize.

Otherwise, I’ve got TWO WORDS FOR YA!

By Teacher, Too

January 31, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Point of grammar:

You use a subject pronoun (I,we, he,she, they) after a linking verb (am, is, was, were,etc…)

“This is she,” is the correct sentence formation.

“Better than I” is correct. It is an elliptical clause.

Okay, back to teaching my students!

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You are incorrect. Rule of thumb: if you would complete the sentence or re-arrange it to use “me,” then you use “me” in the sentence you have. If, on the other hand, you were to complete the sentence where “I” is appropriate, you use “I.”

That being said, you said in your original post “I always challenged my kids to do better than me.” WRONG. It is “better than I,” because to complete the sentence you’d say “…to do better than I did.” Not “me did.”

Predicate makes no difference.

You said you learned in years ago … perhaps you’ve forgettn the nitty-gritty in the years since.

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

OOPS! “forgotten”

By Not Jeff

January 31, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

Jeff has “over achieved” on his pompous exam!

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

My thoughts on ‘proper grammar’:

A) When you’re trying to impress someone (boss, date, professor, etc), go ahead.

B) When you are writing a report, go ahead.

C) If you are an english teacher teaching students proper grammar, you’d better be using it, at least in class.

D) When you are teaching anything OTHER than proper grammar, the fastest way to lose your audience is to use either proper grammar or a voice that is completely unfamiliar to your audience. (In other words, tailor your diction to the audience. Don’t talk thug to a bunch of preps. Neither should you talk prep to thugs.)

By catlady

January 31, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

There is an understood word in the sentence: Better than I (am). Like “go to the door” The (you) is understood.

I digress.

In my area I see more parents encouraging their kids to game the system. Take the easy English instead of AP. Don’t want to mess up your GPA! In our rural area, the high-achieving kids usually push themselves. In our county, most of the highest achieving are teacher’s kids. (funny about that)

By catlady

January 31, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Example of an object pronoun at the beginning of a sentence: To him was given the gift of modesty.

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

catlady,

Very good point about the kids taking the “easy A” compared to the AP classes. Surely there are some over-achieving kids in your system, though. What drives them?

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Old School: that is an interesting distinction. I don’t know that I would have titled them the same way, but I agree that there are two distinct groups. I think that you’re right that the overachievers do, to some extent, do what they do for attention — but I’m not convinced that that is altogether a bad motive. For example, I recall being in AP classes in high school, and even among those of us that were already in a class that was self-selected for some level of motivation, there was still a group of 4-5 who were ultra competitive among each other. It was a good motivator, I think; but there was also a stigma that the other AP students were smart, but not “that” smart. Perhaps they were the high achievers you mention? Not sure. But thank you for posting, because this is a very interesting morsel to think about!

By catlady

January 31, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

I know my 2 best friends and I had a uber (ugh) competition all through high school. Everyone else seemed to sort of watch as we battled it out for top honors. It was friendly, but SERIOUS, if you know what I mean. Not one of us was willing to throw in the towel till the last minute.

I am biased about over-achievers. Most of those I see (that meet my definition, see below) are Latino. They do far better than anyone would predict (and far better than many would acknowledge). Otherwise, the kids I see at the top locally come from well-educated, upper middle class parents who support and encourage them. They have social and cultural capital. That they do well is little surprise to me.

I’d love to see a poor kid from the backwoods be the top student, but I cannot recall it happening. To me, an over-achiever does far better than you would ever predict, given demographics and apparent ability.

Many of the folks I know whose kids could fit that definition do not have the long-sightedness or savy to help them get in that position. The parents aspire for the kid to live at home and drive to the 2 year college 50 miles away, for example.

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

HST2:

Granted. I haven’t had a grammar class that went to that level since MS, at LEAST. And that was at least a decade ago.

Furthermore, however, see my points about proper grammar above (granted, below your last that was directed at me in particular).

I really see no need in being a stickler on grammar outside the areas mentioned, and MAYBE a few others.

cat:

I have observed the same behavior.

My over-achiever student story:

Chica I’ve told y’all about before: One of these that due to some combination of parenting and her own desires, HAD to have A’s. Problem is, in the face of true rigor, she can’t make ‘em. At least in math. Maybe she’s more of a lit scholar than a mathematician. Anyways, it gets time to register her for next year. I put her in the normal class rather than the ‘Advanced’ class, simply because I know two things: A) A’s are EXTREMELY important to her and B) She can’t handle the rigor of advanced classes - even to the MINIMAL extent that I was able to make her class worthy of the title ‘Advanced’. (Literally, even in this class I had HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS that could not define the word ‘triangle’.)

She FLIPS. Commits forgery. (Changed the registration document which already had my signature without my permission.) Tries to paint ME as the bad guy when I’m doing nothing more than trying to help her out and she is the one that just committed a misdemeanor (or is forgery a felony)??

By Teacher, Too

January 31, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

I stress to my students to take the AP classes in high school. I think that colleges would be willing to accept a slightly lower GPA with evidence of AP classes than just honors or even on-level classes.

With all the kids applying to colleges (and with the ever-increasingly large numbers of students who are ill-prepared for college even with the “honors” classes), I think the rigor of the AP curriculum would serve the students well in terms of learning study habits and time management.

My parents didn’t push me to take the accelerated classes (we had a lot more freedom of class choice when I was in HS), but I still chose to take the more difficult classes even though I didn’t make A’s. I’m glad I did, as I went to college with better study habits than many of my peers who went on academic probation, and ultimately, failed out.

By jim d

January 31, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Really Cat,

50 miles? Mine aspires to go 634.62 miles away and I encourage him to do so. He’s been working on it for about 7 months now.

If he makes it in, he will graduate in may and be gone in june. (time’s growing short)

By Teacher, Too

January 31, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

One more comment on the grammar patrol:

I do realize and comprehend that this is a blog, and usually people are typing quickly and don’t proofread. However, I teach my students that the way they communicate, whether speaking or writing, it still reflects them. So, if you are putting something on the blog that is full of grammar and spelling mistakes, that still reflects on you and how people perceive you. I read several of the AJC blogs, and if the blogger’s grammar and spelling is horrendous then I really don’t give much credit to what he/she is saying. (I’m not talking about a few misspelled words or common editing errors. Nor am I talking about sarcasm— see jim d’s earlier post! :)

I hope you take a moment to reread your response before clicking on the “post” button.

By HS Teacher Too

January 31, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Jeff, Why so defensive? I was nice in my post to you, even gave you an out! As to your posting about your personal rules of grammar, I am not sure how to take them. While I agree that you need to know your audience, and I also agree that there are times when we are all lax in our usage, I am almost offended that you’d find this blog audience not worthy of attention to proper grammar.

But again, let me say that we all get lax, and we all make mistakes. I posted not only to say you were mistaken, but to point out a way to understand the rule. I thought I was being friendly. Why not simply say “my bad,” and move on? I don’t care when your last formal grammar lesson was. Mine was long before that. You’re educated. Act it.

By Joy in Teaching

January 31, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

I was from the backwoods and I managed to become salutatorian of my high school graduating class…but that was more than 25 years ago. My parents were high school graduates that worked at least two jobs each in order to make ends meet and to put money in savings. They emphasized the important of hard work and held themselves up as a shining example of what could be accomplished through sheer hard work and determination.

I’m glad I paid attention.

By Joy in Teaching

January 31, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

By the way, Jeff, it’s laughable for you to extol your high standards in high school and college, then turn right around and try to justify your lowered standards in speaking your own language.

And I’m sure you don’t understand how truely funny you are being.

By jim d

January 31, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Too,

I’m not too sure about that and beg to differ.

What they are looking for in my opinon are SAT / ACT scores of well rounded students (tons of extrcurriculars) as well as their core subject GPA’s. Mine hadn’t taken an AP class until this (his sr.) yr and he’s had no problem being accepted at evey school (but one we’ve yet to hear from) where he’s applied.

By catlady

January 31, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

jim d, kudos to you and your son. Give him a firm foundation and give him wings, right? My children each chose colleges about 200 miles from home,which was just right for us (not too close, not too far away). Best wishes to your son; I hope he loves it.

By jim d

January 31, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

I’m also not sure about other parents, I do however know that I’ve encouraged my child to set goals and then strive to achieve them. If that is pushing the envelope on being an over achiever then I’m guilty as charged.

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

The kids that are driven to succeed, IMHO, come from parents that know what’s happening in the world today. I have always said that the most important variable in a childs life is the parent(s).

Parents kow how competitive it is now-a-days to get into a good college. They know how high of an SAT score is required. They know how important the gpa is for their child.

In addition, a number of these parents are the ones that tried the baby stuff to ‘raise a genus.’ Remember the programs where infants were listening to Mozart or where the mother read out math problems to the baby in the womb? Possible some of those programs instilled a sense of “I must succeed” or something like that… Maybe we are seeing the fruits of those programs?

By jim d

January 31, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

I’m sure he will, Too cold that far north for me. LOL

By PPH

January 31, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

Under pressure to achieve??? Give me a break!!!! While I understand that there are parents and even students themselves causing pressure the majority of parents and students are downright lazy and want things done easy and “fairly”. At one point there was talk of not using red pens anymore because it hurt feelings. When I heard this I vowed to give my kids teacher a red pen to use on their papers because I thought this was absolutely ridiculous. We are no longer getting these kids ready for the real world, we are coddling and spoiling them and it really needs to stop. Another example of this is what is happening with kids sports. EVERYONE gets a trophy?? This is just ridiculous. The world is full of competition and these lazy kids need to get used to it. I could go on and on but it boils down to the same thing. Parents need to make their kids work harder and kids themselves need to get a grip and get their butts in gear!

By Teacher, Too

January 31, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

jim d- I’m sure you’re correct on the overall picture of the applicant- I don’t think the high school GPA tells the entire story of a student. I do think, though, that there is value in the AP curriculum as it is more rigorous than standard curriculum. For students who are in low performing high schools, it becomes more important for college-bound students to take the AP classes so they can learn to study, budget time, etc… (I’m really talking about schools such as Meadowcreek HS, where the honors classes are a little more watered down - at least that was my experience when I taught in Gwinnett).

By jim d

January 31, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

JM,

I just knew we would agree again on something!!

By Jeff

January 31, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

HST2:

Apologies. It has been a relatively rough week here at the office. (Notice that I’ve been strangely quiet this week?)

Joy:

Actually, my successes in college that are having a direct impact on my life right now come from learning to explain the formal in the colloquial. That I tend to think in the one and then translate to the other is simply a convenience for me. (Same thing with my work: I think in the programmatic and translate to the design, while my boss does the opposite, as he finds it easier to think in the design.)

By jim d

January 31, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Good point, T Too on the struggling schools.

We were fortunate, or I’d like to think had the foresight, to buy in an area with a lot of growth that would demand a new high school.

Turns out it is fast becoming one of the counties best schools as well as being ranked pretty well nationally.

I suspect it will be ranked even higher after the redistricting for the two new high schools slated to open this fall here in our part of the county.

By Foobs

January 31, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

Teaching at a private school, I definitely think parents and schools are the ones who SCARE the crap out of kids making them think if they don’t do well on the SAT or get all A’s they are complete failures. They also pressure them into doing all sorts of extracurricular activities just to impress colleges, not to enlighten them. It’s sad to see a kid enjoy learning but can’t enjoy it because he or she is too stressed out about grades and all 100 things he or she does each day. Kids are not kids anymore. Everything is so planned and so artificial. Kids literally think it’s the end of the world if they don’t get into the college of their choice. They’re taught that everything is life is scripted or will go exactly as planned as long as they get all A’s. Don’t get me wrong. Motivation and competition are good, but thinking one is a failure when one doesn’t win is just unrealistic. I think too many have simply gone too far with expectations for their children.

Sure, grades are important, but too many people think they’re the most important things. With my own kids, I pressure them to be good kids. I want them to respect others, work close to the best of their ability and feel like they accomplish something, and always strive to do what’s right over doing what’s easy. I hope they’re happy and civil more than anything. That’s where our society is lacking. I also hope my kids make some mistakes and have struggles. Everyone’s too concerned with protecting kids from failure. It so happens that they are at the top of the their classes in a very competitive school, but I really don’t care if they aren’t. They are self-motivated, but they know they can’t be the best at everything.

By Foobs

January 31, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Then again, I deal with the most pressured kids. I do, however, think there are far too many kids that have no pressure at all and simply do as they please and act as if the world revolves around them.

By lyncoln

January 31, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

On the topic of ‘high-achieving’ students has anyone else read “Doing School” by Denise Clark Pope?

The book had the author follow 5 HS students for an academic year and write observations of their actions and their personal anecdotes about how they coped with school (or how they ‘do’ school in the book). It’s a fascinating read to hear perspectives from 5 very different students who were selected by the school as ‘outstanding students’. One of the students definitely fits the definition of high-achieving student. It’s worth checking out from the local library.

I think the pressure to achieve comes from parents and family when young and more from personal desire and friends when older. I agree with Foobs that the current group of students feels pressure from society as a whole. As mentioned, it’s the largest graduating class on record. So every one of the students has more competition for the same number of spots that were there last year. A bright student that’s been told about attending Harvard or Juilliard or School #1 and how that leads to a good job and a good job leads to happiness; I expect that student will push themselves to the limit to make that ‘dream’ a reality. And since there are all that many more people trying for that same dream that means you’ve got to sleep all the less to make sure someone else doesn’t beat you for your spot. Granted there are truly gifted students out there who are able to succeed without even trying, but I think many of the high-achieving students are there because they’re too afraid of ‘failure’ and the horrible fate faced by those who don’t go to ‘the perfect school’. (Like posting to education blogs and stuff, :D )

On a different take, why are 5 AP classes ‘amazing’? I know it’s not the norm in HS, but in college, I took 5/6 classes a semester. That would be the same as 5/6 AP classes, right? Why should we be amazed when a HS senior is capable of handling a college level class load? If they’re an Honors student already, we’re expecting them to do it next year as freshman, aren’t we? I guess I’ll just have to dream for when the norm for the high level students in any High School is to take 5/6 AP level classes their senior years because they’ve already gained the knowledge/skills to pass the graduation exam and are moving on with their personal education.

By Steve

January 31, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

I always hated the little punks in school who didnt have anything better to do than study a dictionary full of stupid words. I still do hate them.

By Meaghan

January 31, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

I never felt pushed to achieve when I was in high school- I achieved because I wanted to.

I took 7 AP classes in high school- and yes, I did take 4 or 5 during my senior year. You can say that I was over-achieving, but it got me 30 hours worth of credit when I got to college. I started my freshman year of college as a sophomore, so that now I can finish my 5 year degree in 4 years.

To me, that is more than worth it. I took the classes because I wanted to, and it paid off both then, when I had better teachers and was encouraged to use higher level thinking. And I also didn’t spend my nights reading dictionaries- I was involved in and out of school.

By Lee

January 31, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

All things in moderation…

…is the key to a happy and successful life. IMHO.

Show me a person who is out on the fringe of behavior, and I’ll show you someone who has “issues.”

While pressure to achieve academically may be a problem for some students, I think a more pervasive problem is pressure to succeed in athletics. But, that may be a blog topic for another day, eh Ms. Diamond?

By mmm

January 31, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this

My spelling is atrocious. But my husband won the Florida state bee twice and he turned out OK. Last month my husband helped out with coaching and doing the practice bees for our school. My 5th grade daughter one some of the practice bees, but she came in third in the actual “choose the school rep bee.”

After the bee, one of my daughter’s classmates came up to my husband and asked him: “Are you angry at Theresa?” “Will you hit her?”.

Now, there is a happy medium between beating your child for not winning not attempting to excel at anything.

May we each help our children find it.

By WFC

February 1, 2008 7:10 AM | Link to this

I taught AP history classes from 1981 until my retirement in 2006. Here is what I noticed:

• An increasing number of students who took my courses to get “their ticket punched” (old military phrase) rather than any interest in the subject.

• An influx of Asian kids with a “grind it out” mentality who raised the bar of achievement. I had mixed feelings on this.

• AP courses became a vehicle for segregation and tracking. My son avoids contact with idolent, self-centered teens by taking AP courses. Touugh to argue with that.

• A decline in the knowledge of AP teachers. Many teachers go into AP simply to avoid “pain in the a*” kids and get to teach docile Asian girls (Elizabeth Russell at Northview was a prime example.)

By John

February 1, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this

I’m glad to hear there are kids that spend a lot of time on their studies and strive to be better than those around them. I used to think todays youth weren’t even fit to serve fries at the local fast foot joint. Perhaps they’ll be smart enough to keep the Chinese from buying up all of our country.

By JustMe

February 1, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Guys, the percentage of students that feel that pressure to achieve that we are discussing here is very very small. These are the few, the proud, the select. In my experience, we are talking about maybe 2% of the student population.

By HS Teacher Too

February 1, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Thank you. Apology accepted. :)

By Tony

February 2, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

As mentioned, it’s the largest graduating class on record.

So if this is the largest graduating class ever, why are we plagued with the political message that there are too many dropouts? This “sky is falling” mentality can be really good at raising alarms, but it equates to yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater.