Get Schooled

By SouthFultonMom

January 30, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

I think it’s a little bit of both. It’s no secret that school boards want money to stay with public schools; this is why they don’t support school vouchers. Also, there are surely poor charter proposals being written. However, as a taxpayer, I should have more say in how my tax dollars are spent. If I want school vouchers, then I should be able to get them. If I feel a charter school is a better option for my child, then I should be able to make that choice. Government gets in the way of too many decisions affecting our lives. They take our money, then they tell us how it will be spent. It’s time for a change.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

SouthFultonMom

You are apparently an excellent mother who truly cares about your child and understands the Government is not the answer.

Based on yesterday’s blog about Escaping Poor Schools, I am so very happy that you get it…

God Bless you and I wish you all my best for your family.

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

January 30, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Speaking in context of APS…… Charter schools blow them away in my opinion….where is the money going anyway ? not to the kids.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Amen Tater,

Let me point out though that I’ve yet to read in either HB 881 or HB831 who will be picking up the bill for the additional funding promised for charters.

There appears to be no method in these bills for the state to recover the money they have promised, to equal local funding, from the local shool systems.

This omission would mean people in north Ga. might end up funding charters in S. Ga and I’m not too sure I care much for that idea.

OTOH, should this allow for the state to recoop these funds from local systems by reducing the amount of state funding they would generally recieve—I’m afraid locaal politicans will balk and in the end defeat this proposed legislation.

Bottom line—this may be just another smoke and mirrors ploy to sway voters.

By Camille

January 30, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

This may be a silly question, but I’m going to ask anyway. How is it that a school loses money if a child goes to another school, taking the money that is supposed to be used for that child anyway? That is something that I’ve never understood. My thinking is that if the money is actually used for my child in that school, what difference does it make if that money is used for my child in another school?

It’s very likely that I’m being naive and the problem is that the money isn’t actually used just for my child. I just figured that I would go ahead and ask so that I can finally get an answer to that question.

By Tamika

January 30, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

YES we need to PRIVATE schools!! The public school system is failing our KIDS terribly. I should have a Choice as to were I should send my Children to school — NOT the RETARDED Govt!!!!!

The Teacher Unions are more dangerous to this Country than anything

I SAY FIRE ALL BAD TEACHERS!! AND THERE ARE LOTS OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Tamika

January 30, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

WE as Citizens must vote and Put and END to the ridiculous Public school system— Private Schools ARE much better. Lets actually educate our kids instead of sending them to baby sitters during the day.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

Camille,

I believe it may be in the duplication of services and the cost of maintaining facilities that are not 100% utilized.

By V for Vendetta

January 30, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Tamika, do your children go to private schools? Did you go to a private school? I seriously doubt it based on your post.

An educated person would know that we have NO real teacher unions here in the great state of GA. As a result, teachers have very little power in the grand scheme of education. As many have posted before, the real problems are with the school boards. The boards of many of the metro-counties are either corrupt (Clayton) or incompetent (Cobb, Gwinnett, Dekalb, Fulton, APS, and on and on). I agree, there ARE a lot of bad teachers out there, but it has nothing to do with unions.

Perhaps a little more thought should be put into your posts. In SOME ways private schools ARE better, but I would hesitate to say they are better as an absolute statement. SouthFultonMom, Tater, and JimD are correct, less government would be a good start; the system needs an overhaul. It’s about time.

The government might not always make the best decisions (heck, most of the time they don’t) but “retarded” is a bit much.

By Old School

January 30, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

jim dear and Camille, it can also mean the loss of a teaching slot or two. That can lead to larger classes or even loss of programs.

Frankly, I’d love to see a charter vocational school down here in the southern end of the state. Ideally (in my opinion) students would wear the uniforms of the trade in which they are enrolled, take courses including technical writing, business communications and math, business law, personal and business finance, related sciences (there’s a lot of physics in electronics and auto mechanics), and even public speaking. All courses would be interrelated and grounded in real world application.

But that’s just my dream.

By CJ

January 30, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

It’s a shame that many parents treat the schools as a 2nd or 3rd chance school. Some don’t take off like they should, and only cater to babysitting unruly children.

By Cammi317

January 30, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

My daughter attends a charter school which I love and they are kicking butt in DeKalb County!!!!

Camille it is truly odd seeing my name on here. I don’t meet many people with the same name…LOL.

By Joy in Teaching

January 30, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Tamika,

There are no teacher’s unions in Georgia. It is a “right to work” state. Get your facts straight before spouting things off the top of your head.

Second, while I agree that bad teachers should be fired, what would you personally like to do with bad students or bad parents? Teachers are not miracle workers. What then?

By the way? I’m a teacher. NOT a baby sitter, even though I feel like such on some days.

By JustMe

January 30, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

Wow. I really disagree with many of the posts here….

Public education is funded by all and is available to all. If you choose not to use it, that is your choice - but you are still part of the all that pays for it.

If you feel that your local public school is inadequate, then become involved to make it adequate - plain and simple. It is supposed to be a community and community effort. Part of the problem is the attitude that “I’ll just sit back and complain about others.” If you are not involved with a solution, then you are part of the problem!!!!!!

By BigB

January 30, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

I am a former teacher at a Charter School and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed those three years. We were afforded the opportunity to try more innovative methods and our resources seemed limitless. The parents were buying into the methods and most of the teachers were okay with the methods.

I will admit that the charter school where I worked is probably different from most other charter schools. We were in a brand new building, we had “enough” support from the local board, we had a partnership with a multi-million dollar, national educational service provider and we had a dedicated, very experienced Board of Directors (with access to deep pockets).

Many charter schools are the products of individuals with good intentions but not many resources. There will be several obstacles and if you don’t have the resources to circumvent some of those obstacles, you can wind up going under or worse — not providing a quality education. Several school districts seem threatened by anything new and believe it or not, I even saw many teachers that were adverse to anything besides their perceived norm. I often thought that charter schools may be better off hiring fairly new teachers who are still enthusiastic and who haven’t become old stubborn oxen.

I think that there should be some increase in charter schools (especially outside of the metro area) but not too many. If you have too many, you decrease the effectiveness of the charter school concept. I have seen some charter applications and believe me, some should be definitely be turned down because the ideas are just not realistic.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

JustMe

Thank you for making the very valid point for school vouchers. I couldn’t have explained it better :-))

By BigB

January 30, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

I am a former teacher at a Charter School and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed those three years. We were afforded the opportunity to try more innovative methods and our resources seemed limitless. The parents were buying into the methods and most of the teachers were okay with the methods.

I will admit that the charter school where I worked is probably different from most other charter schools. We were in a brand new building, we had “enough” support from the local board, we had a partnership with a multi-million dollar, national educational service provider and we had a dedicated, very experienced Board of Directors (with access to deep pockets).

Many charter schools are the products of individuals with good intentions but not many resources. There will be several obstacles and if you don’t have the resources to circumvent some of those obstacles, you can wind up going under or worse — not providing a quality education. Several school districts seem threatened by anything new and believe it or not, I even saw many teachers that were adverse to anything besides their perceived norm. I often thought that charter schools may be better off hiring fairly new teachers who are still enthusiastic and who haven’t become old stubborn oxen.

I think that there should be some increase in charter schools (especially outside of the metro area) but not too many. If you have too many, you decrease the effectiveness of the charter school concept. I have seen some charter applications and believe me, some should definitely be turned down because the ideas are just not realistic. I can’t really compare charter to traditional because I only taught at a charter but having conversed with teachers who taught at both, most like the mandatory parental involvement, lack of red tape, autonomy & individuality of the charter but they like the feeling of job stability & security of the traditional.

By ECLB

January 30, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

Not as long as Imagine Schools is running the charter schools. I have never seen such poor management in my life. I agree in theory with charter schools—but I have yet to see an Imagine school actually work well. Hopefully the new ones they opened this year will start to prove that wrong. Before the state approves any more schools, they should investigate more thoroughly the company funding them. Imagine’s track record in other states is abysmal. Perhaps if they spent a few minutes online looking at the other schools Imagine runs in other states, they would have thought twice about approving new schools run by the same company.

By BLUEMOON

January 30, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t believe Charter Schools in and of themselves are the answer. Bettering ALL of our schools is the answer and the way to do that is:

Give the power back to the teachers. I saw someone that was belligerent over firing bad teachers. Well, it’s hard to attract good ones when the politics involved in education is so out of control. Not to mention that most of the power in the schools has gone to the kids. (thanks to a lot of parents who think Dr. Spock is the second coming and the “I’ll sue you if you punish my child” variety.

Next, improve the curriculum in ALL of the schools. Why should any school have a better curriculum than any other? Oh wait, no state leadership.

Throwing money at schools is not the issue. We already spend as much as most states in the country we’re just getting less back on our return because we have state leaders that do not know how to spend it.

Just my 2 cents, but I think it’s a thought well spent.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

ECLB

I read the following report from Imagine. I would much rather send my child to one of these schools than any government school. Take a look: http://www.imagineschools.com/uploadedFiles/2007%20Annual%20Report.pdf

By HS Teacher Too

January 30, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

The thing that many people consistently overlook is that those people who send their students to charter schools (or who accept and use vouchers, or who find a way to send their child(ren) to private school) are already self-selecting because they value education. This is no different from people moving to a particular public school district because it has good schools: these people are saying by their actions that they value education, even if they don’t do another thing to that end! It follows that by default, charter schools, private schools, etc. will be “better” if for no other reason than their clientele, if you will, considers education to be more than mere daycare. Or at least, a significant portion of their clientele can be expected to feel that way.

Again, it comes down to more than just the school. It comes down to the people in the school — students AND teachers. And administrators. And yes, parents.

I will admit that I don’t know nearly enough about charter schools to offer an informed opinion on whether we need more of them. I will agree with the posters who say we need less government involvement (NCLB and other mandates and micromanagement); and I also agree with the first three bullets of JustMe’s posting. At the end of the day, change comes only when it’s demanded, and in some cases, forced.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

I still see a bit of a problem here. This legislation fails to address who will be paying although it promises equal funding.

Will the state tax us again to pay for this or will they force the money out of local hands?

Either way won’t be good. Either we pay twice for the same services or local public schools will have to reduce services.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

Bluemoon,

Here’s your change.

Give the power back to the parents. Only problem I have is how to equitably fund it.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

HS too,

I must disagree. Many charters are being started in less than desirable neighborhoods to provide for disadvantaged students, they are not all being placed in upscale neighborhoods to provide for students that are already excelling.

By SouthFultonMom

January 30, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

Just Me there is a per student dollar amount used in public schools. There is no reason that my “per student” dollar amount shouldn’t be used as I see fit. Secondly, I am a registered voter that exercises my right to vote every time. You may want to review how board members are elected to fully understand. While your argument sounds good, it is flawed. Have you been to a board meeting lately? Heck, who do you vote for in the last presidential election?

Secondly, I AM a teacher! And yes, there are some horrible teachers and administrators out there. I witnessed profanity from adults and students. Teachers get burn-out due to some of the very issues that you’ve brought up.

Ultimately, there is no one solution to fix the problem, but there need to be more options. I work in a Title I school where many students just don’t get it. I’m not a magician, but I give all that I can to those that wan to learn. Parents want a choice. I invite you into my school to volunteer your time and see how hard it is. For parents without a choice, it’s a difficult situation. Even when you’re involved. Realistically, there is no way to force parents to be involved. So what do we do? In my opinion, we choose another option.

By Kym

January 30, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

Can someone tell me what happen to alternative schools? Just Me you made a great point with this: * It is always easiest to blame the teacher - for everything. Remember that a teacher cannot make a diamond out of coal no matter how ‘good’ they are. If the student has absentee parents, hasn’t been taught basic manners, has a chip on their shoulder for whatever reason, hates school, doesn’t see the value of education, etc., do you really think that a teacher can teach that child math? Instead of forcing that child into a math class, and if you think that schools should solve all of societies problems, then that child should first go into counseling before ever entering a classroom. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink!* An I think quite a few things can be solved if maybe there were alternative schools for “bad kids” who are not performing after ever attempted has been made to help. I know in my son’s south fulton elementary school the teacher became so frustrated with one student that the child was placed at the back of the class so to be isolated from all other students because her behavior was over the top. Attempts to “reach” the mother were in vain because she was sending the child to school as mandated without any interest in education. Maybe these students should be taken out of the public school system and placed in alternative schools with trained staff who can are educated and prepared to deal with their behaviors.

By Elsie

January 30, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

It’s been quite some time since I posted, although I check in frequently. The (admittedly tired) debate on teacher’s unions in GA got me thinking. I wonder if anyone has done a correlation of state test scores with whether the state has a teacher’s union? It seems like that would be very interesting information, given the regularity with which the subject of unions appears on this blog!

By jim d

January 30, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

JM,

Please don’t confuse the blog by mentioning private schools in the mix when discussing Charter schools. (some folks really don’t understand the difference)

THANKS.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

jim d

I guess so we are all clear, this is one of the definitions that I found for charter schools..

A public charter school is a publicly funded school that, in accordance with an enabling state statute, has been granted a charter exempting it from selected state or local rules and regulations. A charter school may be newly created, or it may previously have been a public or private school; it is typically governed by a group or organization (e.g., a group of educators, a corporation, or a university) under a contract or charter with the state. In return for funding and autonomy, the charter school must meet accountability standards. A school’s charter is reviewed (typically every 3 to 5 years) and can be revoked if guidelines on curriculum and management are not followed or the standards are not met.

I support charter schools AND private schools. I would much rather take my tax dollars and spend it at a school which is in my families best interest. I’m very sympathetic with SouthFultonMom who has a monumental task of trying to educate children who don’t want to be educated.

All I want is choice and competition. Whether it comes from the charter, public or private schools doesn’t make a real difference. Hopefully we all want what’s best for their kids, not supporting a school system that is a colossal failure (ie, APS)

By HS Teacher Too

January 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

jimd, I don’t think we disagree, unless I have misunderstood charter schools.

So, let me say this: as I understand them, charter schools are “elective” in the sense that even if I have a charter school next to my house, I can either apply to it, hopefully be accepted, and attend the charter school; or I can continue to go to my regular public school.

That assumption was the basis for my comments about self-selection. Naturally if my assumption is incorrect, to some extent my earlier comments go out the window.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Tater,

While I too would like a totally free choice, I realize this must come about in smaller increments.

Charters are a start, Choice public systems take it a step further, but the choice of private with tax dollars may be a long way off. And to be quite frank, I’m uncertain if I would support the use of tax dollars being distributed to religious organizations that so frequently provide private schools.

I kinda like the separation thing we have going.(keeps churches out of goverment and goverment out of my church) :-)

By HS Teacher Too

January 30, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

SouthFultonMom,

I’m still on the fence about one part of the “portable money” problem, and that is that I think even to the extent that YOUR CHILD’s “allocation” is “yours,” there is still an element of fixed costs and overhead included, as JustMe mentioned … and how can we separate what percentage of “your” money really isn’t “yours?”

I’m not sure how to work around that.

On the other hand, we can’t earmark that our tax dollars go to fund only that which we support, or which directly affects us. I can’t say that I want my $xx,xxx a year in taxes to NOT go to welfare programs, or the department of defense, or to fund any federal research grants … etc., etc. So in that sense I am not convinced that I ought to have any more say as to how my education tax dollars are spent, as much as I may disagree with the system. “What if I don’t have kids?” is the classic example. I think making the money too portable begins a dangerous slippery slope.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

HS ALSO,

MY BAD! I misread your previous comment.

Forgive me?

By catlady

January 30, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

my tax dollars

Does anyone THINK before they type that? What does your property tax look like? (I don’t live in Atlanta, and I don’t live royally, so mine is miniscule in comparison to what I have “used” for my children over the years.)I think about 80% of what you pay each year goes to the school system. So, if you pay $4000 in property tax, about $3200 goes to the school. Yet, the cost of educating your child is roughly $7000 (more in Decatur). So, other people are paying for your child’s education already. Are you ready to chip in the rest?

Now, you want to take your property tax dollars and go to a private school? Good luck with that! Not too many adequate schools can be paid for with $3000 per year. Meanwhile, your house value is dropping because of the money being pulled out of the school system. You say you have 2 children? Well, be prepared to cough up the rest of the cost of your children’s education (that other people are now paying) EVERY YEAR till they graduate.

The only people I think might be able to be griping about “taking my tax money and going to private school” would be those whose property tax bill is over $9,000 per year and who only have one child in public school. If that is you, you probably already have your child in private school anyway.

By HS Teacher Too

January 30, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

jim d, of course.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

jim d

You are probably correct regarding the distribution of the funding… It was meant in a perfect tater world not realistic with our current political climate.

I also believe in HS Teacher Too’s statement regarding the distribution of my taxes to programs that I don’t support. Such is life..

I wish that we had a Governor who had the intellect to explain to the citizens of this state that without education, we will fail as a state.

Oh well, back to work so the government can take my hard earned tax money at gunpoint to support failed programs…

By Joy in Teaching

January 30, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

catlady,

I like your explanation of “my taxes dollars” paying for public school.

A few years ago, I was sitting in a parent conference with an irate parent who began shouting at one teacher (fortunately not myself) about how his tax dollars paid teacher’s salaries and how he was going to get her fired.

The teacher calmly listened to his rant and when he finally finished, she asked,

“So if your tax dollars pay my salary, that means my tax dollars pay my salary as well. Can I have a raise?”

The tension was broken…and everyone had a good chuckle.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

catlady

I sent both my kids to a private school despite paying school taxes in a failing school district. At the time my income was about $50,000 per year. My property taxes were less than $2,000 per year.

I worked two jobs because I wanted my kids to have the best education possible. Cutting back on “wants” helped pay for this schooling. Have you read the report card for the schools in this state? Many are good with excellent teachers and administrators who are indeed making a difference.

Then you have the APS, DeKalb, Clayton schools which are dismal failures. I would rather have all the failing schools close, give the money to the parents, and watch what private industry will do. This is about choice, something that I will never experience in Georgia.

I would have been glad to take $3,000 per child to use at my kids private school or have the option for a charter school.

By JustMe

January 30, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

SouthFultonMom -

You said, “There is no reason that my “per student” dollar amount shouldn’t be used as I see fit.”

Yes, there is a major major reason. It is because it is not just YOUR tax dollars we are talking about here. It is also MY tax dollars.

The ‘per-student’ amount is no way made up of just your money. You pay way less taxes than that - even if you only had one child.

It is just plain wrong for the government to take money away from me (a single person with no children) and then simply hand it to you (to choose whatever you like). In my book, that is called stealing.

It is plain correct for the government to make the best decisions for society in general and for all, using all of our tax dollars.

Again, if YOU don’t like YOUR school system or YOUR local school, then do something to improve it. Vote for different School Board representation. Attend School Board meetings and voice your concerns. Work with that local school PTSA. Work with that local school administration. Have you tried any of these things?

I certainly don’t mind a public school system offering options like charter schools, theme schools, magnet programs, etc. That is all well within the realm and under the umbrealla of the public school system that is supported by all of our tax dollars. I am not a bitter single person and do see the value of trying to educate the masses.

However, any “voucher” program would run into major opposition by me (and others it sounds like).

Tater -

Charter schools do fall under the public school system. They have an “independent” charter that states their mission, etc. However, they really are officially listed under their respective school system.

It is, nonetheless, a choice for students. However, in many/most instances it is also a choice for the charter schools. Depending on their charter, they do not have to accept any student applying. They can deny admissions to students for a variety of reasons, and send them back to their home school. In fact, even after admission, they can expel a student and send them back to their home school.

In this way, they are similar to private schools. They are able to “hand pick” the “better” students; and, they are able to remove trouble students from the population. Isn’t that ‘stacking the deck’ if you compare a regular public school to those?

By VOICE

January 30, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

Yes, we need more charter schools. What we are currently doing simply is not working.

By mmm

January 30, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

I am the Board chair of an extremely innovative charter elementary school who also wants to start a middle school with the same mission and vision as my kids get older.

It is extremely difficult to do public education well, but also extremely important. It is a calling and not everyone with an ego that is dismissive of traditional schools is competent to be given other peoples children and money.

I have followed this legislation closely and it creates a nice balance.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

JustMe

It is just plain wrong for the government to take money away from me (a single person with no children) and then simply hand it to you (to choose whatever you like). In my book, that is called stealing.

What do you call all our social programs, yup, stealing. What do you call a Social Security system that you’ve paid into all your life being bankrupt in 2037? Do you think I cherish this prospect since this will be my prime retirement years? What do you call welfare for illegal aliens?

You are convinced in your mind that private, charter schools will not work, however the language you use in your posts proves to me that you are on target, just off the trail a little bit :-)) A true Ditto-head in the making….

School choice, private industry and some sort of leadership from our State officials would certainly help correct the flaws in our educational system. JustMe, give it a try. Can we really do worse than our current situation? You read the blogs from other posts, do you believe that several of the posters are products of an excellent school system?

You may want to read this http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=2797&sectionID=37&NEWSYEAR=2008

This issue will not go away. Parents are finally starting to vocalize how they feel about government schools…

This is just a guess, but I would be willing to say that many of the teachers would jump ship to a charter school that would allow them, and the students, to succeed.

It has nothing to do with stacking the deck. Hey, life’s not fair. It’s not a perfect world, but if we can, lets fix what we can. We have to get out of this funk of being the laughingstock of the world in terms of the education of our children.

Money is not the answer, choice is..

The balls in your court JustMe.. Tater off soapbox for now…

By JustMe

January 30, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

Tater -

You are incorrect to say that schools in DeKalb, Clayton, and APS are failures. There are tremendously successful schools in each of those systems. In fact, you can find some of those schools ranked nationally by Newsweek magazine.

Please be more careful not to lump all schools together like that!

As an aside…. I work in the DeKalb School system. If you look at what schools are the ‘successful’ verses what schools are ‘failures’ you can see an obvious geographic detail. The more successful schools are located in areas where the socio-economic levels are highest. The least successful ones are where the socio-economic levels are the lowest. There seems to be a direct relationship here.

Is it because those “failing” schools in the “poorer” areas get less money? Heck no! DeKalb actually sends more funding to those places. Those are the schools that are newer, with better equipment, etc. The “successful” schools are falling apart - they are very old and in great need of repair.

Is it because those “failing” schools have worse teachers? Heck no! DeKalb has dispersed their teachers such that most schools have about the same types and levels of teachers in each location.

Is it because those “failing” schools have worse administrators? Not really. Dekalb often moves administrators from one school to another.

The variable that is different here is the STUDENTS and PARENTS.

And, simply moving those failing students/parents to another building won’t change things. The parents MUST step up and become parents. They MUST become involved with the school and their child’s education. IMHO, that is the missing link here!

Schools cannot FORCE parents to suddenly become involved. Teachers cannot FORCE parents to suddenly become involved. Why do we fault the teachers and the school for failures???????

Please understand that I am not saying that each teacher individually is without fault. Sure, there are some bad apples. But, IMHO, that percentage has remained fairly steady throughout time. We suddenly did not get an influx of horrible teachers over the last 10 years.

By luvs2teach

January 30, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

I have said many times that I would like to see more choice - charters, magnets, maybe vouchers (I’m for the current ones for SPED, not sure for everyone - in my ideal L2T world it’s all privatized anyway - not that that would ever happen). I have serious concerns about choice that crosses district, county, or state boundaries (that just opens up a whole other can of worms).

Steven Levitt and Roland Fryer found that students in Chicago who particpated in a school choice lottery (meaning not everyone got a their choice) still outperformed others even if they didn’t get their choice school.

To me, that speaks volumes about the importance of parental values on education, more than the choice itself.

My question for those in the know has to do with charters in Cobb County. When I was looking up Imagine Schools (BTW - don’t be fooled by the pretty brochure and great sounding words - they have some issues - one school had 3 pricipals in less than one year), I found that Cobb has some charters that are choice, like the two Imagine Schools, and some that were existing schools (Sedalia Park Elementary and the famed Walton HS). The esisting schools are charters, but you have to live in their attendance zones to go there - how does that work? I can’t just move anywhere in Cobb and enroll my kid at Walton.

As far as funding goes, people brought up good points - let me add one more: when you see that per child dollar amount, that doesn’t mean that’s what they’re spending on your child. It’s an average. There is a special ed kid getting speech services and an all-day para-pro. There is an ESOL student getting additional English instruction. There are gifted kids getting additonal gifted instruction. Some kids cost more, and we’re all paying for that.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

BULL CRAP,

Deatrest JM. Go read the friggin law and quit repeating your damn lie that regardless of how often is told—will still not be true.

Here ya go—take the time to read it!!

Charter School Fact:

Georgia charter schools must not charge tuition, require certain test scores or other application criteria, or otherwise discriminate concerning admissions. In case demand exceeds the enrollment capacity of a school, the school must conduct a lottery to determine who will be admitted.

Student Admissions

Charter schools are public schools, and may not “discriminate on any basis that would be illegal if used by a school system. [O.C.G.A. § 20-2-2066 (c)]. Concerning student admissions to charter schools, Georgia law (O.C.G.A. § 20-2-2066) states:

A local charter school shall enroll students in the following manner:

A local charter school shall enroll any student who resides in the school system in which the local charter school is located and who submits a timely application as specified in the charter unless the number of applications exceeds the capacity of a program, class, grade level, or building. In such case, all such applicants shall have an equal chance of being admitted through a random selection process unless otherwise prohibited by law; provided, however, that a local charter school shall give enrollment preference to such students who reside in the attendance zone specified in the charter and may give enrollment preference to a sibling of a resident student currently enrolled in the local charter school. A student who resides outside the school system in which the local charter school is located may not enroll in that local charter school except pursuant to a contractual agreement between the local boards of the school system in which the student resides and the school system in which the local charter school is located. Unless otherwise provided in such contractual agreement, a local charter school may give enrollment preference to a sibling of a nonresident student currently enrolled in the local charter school. A state chartered special school shall enroll any student who resides in the attendance zone specified in the charter and who submits a timely application as specified in the charter unless the number of applications exceeds the capacity of a program, class, grade level, or building. The period of time during which an application for enrollment may be submitted shall be specified in the charter. In such case, all such applicants shall have an equal chance of being admitted through a random selection process unless otherwise prohibited by law; provided, however, that a state chartered special school may give enrollment preference to a child of a full-time teacher, professional, or other employee of the state chartered special school as provided for in subsection(b) of Code Section 20-2-293 or to a sibling of a student currently enrolled in the state chartered special school. A charter school shall not discriminate on any basis that would be illegal if used by a school system. A student may withdraw without penalty from a charter school at any time and enroll in a local school in the school system in which such student resides as may be provided for by the policies of the local board. A student who is suspended or expelled from a charter school as a result of a disciplinary action taken by a charter school shall be entitled to enroll in a local school within the local school system in which the student resides, if, under the disciplinary policy of the local school system, such student would not have been subject to suspension or expulsion for the conduct which gave rise to the suspension or expulsion. In such instances, the local board shall not be required to independently verify the nature or occurrence of the applicable conduct or any evidence relating thereto.” The admission and enrollment process should, as always with charter schools, be open, fair, and transparent. In case demand exceeds the numbers of available spaces at a school, and a lottery must be conducted, the Illinois Charter School Resource Handbook recommends that schools “conduct a well-publicized, public lottery. Schools may wish to have public officials present to supervise or attest to the fairness of the lottery, or to have an outside firm (such as an accounting or auditing firm) conduct the lottery. Applicants who are not admitted should be placed on a waiting list in the order in which they were selected in the lottery.” Special Education

A common charge against charter schools is that they do not serve students with disabilities adequately. Because charter schools are public schools, open to all students, they are still responsible for addressing students with special needs. Some schools, such as the Metro Deaf Charter School1 in Minnesota, cater specifically to students with certain disabilities. Most, however, must address the same issues as traditional public schools, with less personnel and resources. The Pioneer Institute suggests, “Parents and children who choose a charter school are choosing a unique program that is explicitly described in the school’s charter. All parents, and especially those with a special needs child, should be encouraged to examine a school’s curriculum and program very carefully before choosing to apply. A parent may wish to consider the possibility that the program could replace his or her child’s current Individualized Educational Plan (IEP) (a specific written educational plan that must be developed for each special needs student). Parents of a special needs student, however, are not required to give up or modify their child’s IEP as a condition for admission to a charter school.”

The Georgia Department of Education provides a sample IEP form2, as well as questions and answers about IEPs.3

To avoid any misunderstandings and to ensure that a charter school will be able to fulfill its mission to all students, it is important that both charter-granting agencies and school founders “make sure before issuing [or receiving] a charter that the school has addressed this issue in a reasonable way – it has the staff it needs to do what it says it will do and no one is denied admission because of a disability. That does not mean that every charter school must accommodate every need of every disabled child. Regular public schools don’t do that either; they may well send a youngster with particular disabilities to a school across town that is better suited to that child’s needs.”4 This does not mean that schools should counsel special education students out, but that they should keep several things in mind while still in the planning stages (see chart on next page).

Following are special ed resources from the U.S. Department of Education’s website:

Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability5 Office of Special Education & Rehabilitative Services6 Organizations that can help7 Publications8 Special Education & Rehabilitative Services9

By Tater

January 30, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

JustMe

The variable that is different here is the STUDENTS and PARENTS.

You again are correct. So tell me why I don’t have a choice? When I moved here my kids went to a failed school district (of course the realtor said the opposite, surprise) and it took about a month to figure out how the administration of that particular school didn’t care when you presented an issue to them. Did I have a choice?

Giving me $3,000 (or whatever $) would allow me to do what’s best for my kids.

ADDITIONALLY, the difference in what the government gives me back for the voucher would well be offset by the savings of my children going elsewhere.

Let’s do the math for a moment. $3,000 per child x 2 = $6,000 (voucher)

Average cost of metro school for each student: $11,000 per child x 2 = $22,000

Savings to the TAXPAYERS $16,000

This is so simple I really don’t know why you don’t get it. My perception is your employment with DeKalb is skewing your obvious support of charter and private schools. Your postings prove that…

Charter schools also have more involvement from the parents, the same parents who care about their kids and their success. You will never change the parents who drop the kids off as a babysitting service. I pray that these kids thrive on their own…

By Tater

January 30, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

jim d

Thank you for the excellent information.

By jim d

January 30, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

JM,

In case you failed to understand, both of your following comments are damn lies

“they do not have to accept any student applying”

“They are able to “hand pick” the “better” students;”

By jim d

January 30, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

Tater you’re welcome.

Sorry, I just kinda lost it though. Seems these are a couple of lies that have been repeated so often thaat people start believing them, and it really pi$$’s me off.

By Tater

January 30, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

jim d

That’s what happens when you are brainwashed by government schools..

By luvs2teach

January 30, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

jim d - I don’t think JustMe is trying to spread lies - I think there is a confusion between magnets and charters - and then I think there are magnets which ARE charters.

Magnets can require certain test scores and can turn down applicants.

By catlady

January 30, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Tater, Most of school funding comes from LOCAL PROPERTY taxes, not income taxes. If you are paying $2,000 per year, the school is getting about$1600 from you, no matter how many children you have. It does not matter what your income is or how many jobs you work to make this income. That $1600 which you put into public school won’t go too far if you were to get it back. Could you really buy schooling for your children with that? You’d have to provide transportation and lunch at many private schools, in addition to extra money for supplementary activities and classes. [Of course, this does not factor in any benefit (negative or positive) from having your home “serviced” by a school. As the parents in Clayton County see, the results of a largely disfunctional system can be quite negative to homeowners.]

One thing I think every blogger here agrees on, whether they agree that the sun will come up tomorrow morning or not, is that education is important and that we need to find ways to provide opportunities for students. Notice to my school system: I did not say “make” students successful! Nor did I say “expose” them to concepts! Until and unless we get a firm handle on student behavior, our failing schools are DOOMED. (See if you can find any high-achieving school with horribly-behaved students). We also need to get a handle on the imposition of stupid stuff from the top down, whether the “top” is the federal government or the state or the local county office.

In my mind, little is off the table, as long as we look at long-term, in addition to short-term, implications of our actions. This is where unbiased research can help. Don’t give me a slick, glossy brochure. Let someone without a horse in the race, with nothing to gain or lose, provide evaluation of programs. Remember, too, that not every school system is like those in and around metro Atlanta (for the good and bad).

By jim d

January 30, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately Tater,

That doesn’t just apply to students. I know I’ve had to explain charters to many a public school teacher.

You’d think as well educated as these “professionals” are that they would research something that affects their profession before they oppose it.

But hey—I’m not a teacher so whatta I know?

By luvs2teach

January 30, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

BTW - Michigan School Choice does not include public funds for private schools (sorry jim d - I’m a google addict - the topic you mentioned the other day got me looking).

By Tater

January 30, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this

catlady

I understand what you are saying and maybe I didn’t make myself clear. As you can probably tell I’m all about choice, whether it is public, private, charter or whatever type of school will do the best for your children’s education.

The average cost of sending a child to a public school is $11,000 per year per child.

My taxes pay for $1,600 of that $11,000. The difference comes from other people, working or not. The difference would be a savings to the taxpayers as a whole.

By the way, I did pay for private school, transportation, food, extra curricular activities out of my own “disposable” income. Please don’t take this statement in the wrong manner. I wanted the best for my children and held off on a lot of things that I wanted to do, such as get away on a vacation, etc., for the betterment of my kids.

You are correct that our school system is DOOMED. There is no amount of discussion here which will change anything. We must all take personal responsibility when it comes to our children and if that is moving them out of a failed system than so be it.

I really don’t understand why posters like JustMe fail to see the disservice “we” are doing to our children by not allowing choice.

By luvs2teach

January 30, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

Tater - I’m not sure where you got the number $11,000 - it seems high. I’ve seen the national average as $9,866 and I know my county spends about $8,545.

You can’t just say that by taking your child and $1,600 out that you’ll be saving the district the rest - it doesn’t work that way. If your child is a special needs student who requires a lot of extra services, then yes, you are saving the system money. But if your child is an on-level student in a regular ed class, I can tell you the district isn’t spending nearly that much on your kid.

I’m not saying that school funding through property taxes is right or fair - I am saying it’s not so simple as you stated.

By catlady

January 30, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this

Good, robust discussion, ya’ll.

By HS Teacher Too

January 30, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

jim d,

Let me take a stab at why so few teachers you’ve encountered are familiar with how charter schools work: They’ve never been exposed to them as an option, and so they’ve not “needed” to learn about them from a pragmatic standpoint. I actually once did a research paper about charter schools, but so much has changed since then I no longer consider myself knowledgeable about them. Add to that the “spin” from the government/counties, and the fact that there is so much confusion between charter schools and magnet schools, and we have the mess you’ve experienced.

Note that I’m not defending it, I’m just offering it as (one possible) explanation.

I would put this in the same category as legal training for teachers: outside of initial certificate programs or graduate courses as part of a degree program, there is virtually NO training for teachers about legal obligations, liabilities, changing law, etc. It’s a big problem, if you ask me.

(I know, I realize that you didn’t!)

By mmm

January 30, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

As with any tool, there have been cases where that tool is used for less than honorable ends. I believe that the particular charter that JustMe had experience with was just such an effort. This can be particularly true of “conversion” schools, which in my mind often aren’t truly doing much of anything that couldn’t be done with strong leadership—but that use the charter as a way of ducking NCLB transfers that the central district office would wish to give them. Magnets are the opposite of charters—district schools that are allowed both to restrict entrance based on academic or other criteria AND are often given an unfair amount of additional services or attention because those who are savy enough to get in are also good at demanding extra.

I’m not saying that magnets shouldn’t exist—-but true start-up charters are, I believe, morally far more defensible by those who care about equity than the district magnet schools. Someone needs to be watching the money deployment INTERNAL to the district.

By Lee

January 30, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

The bottom line…

• Homeschooling, private, charter, and magnet schools et al, are an attempt by the parents to get our average to excellent students segregated from the ‘left side of the Bell curve’, as SET likes to call them.

• Gifted, honors, college prep, and A/P classes are an attempt by the schools to do the same.

Seems to me it is time to tell the politically correct social engineers that run public schools and public school policy to kiss our a55 and do the one thing that will benefit ALL students in a least cost manner — GROUP BY ABILITY. But no, they will continue to advocate placing the future valedictorian, future felon, illegal alien who can’t speak a lick of English, and borderline retard in the same classroom and wonder why no one is learning.

BTW, multiply what you pay in school taxes over about forty years to get a more accurate figure on what you pay to provide a “free education” for your kids. Add in a percentage of your federal and state income tax for good measure. Also consider that those millions that businesses pay merely gets passed along to the individual consumer in the form of higher prices. Again, multiply that over your lifetime.

By luvs2teach

January 30, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

“Seems to me it is time to tell the politically correct social engineers that run public schools and public school policy to kiss our a55 and do the one thing that will benefit ALL students in a least cost manner — GROUP BY ABILITY. But no, they will continue to advocate placing the future valedictorian, future felon, illegal alien who can’t speak a lick of English, and borderline retard in the same classroom and wonder why no one is learning.”

Amen to that, Lee…but we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings!

“BTW, multiply what you pay in school taxes over about forty years to get a more accurate figure on what you pay to provide a “free education” for your kids.”

Excellent point, further complicating matters…what about people who don’t stay in a community? Take the money and run, so to speak? What about someone who lives in a good district while kids are in school, and then moves to a cheaper district (or one that doesn’t have seniors pay that portion of the property taxes - they do exist)? Or move to a state with no income tax like Florida?

It gets really sticky, and it’s not as simple as saying, “I pay X therefore I deserve Y.” And, just to play devil’s advocate, what about people who want vouchers for other public services? “I’m not happy with my police and I’ll never call them, so can I have my portion of taxes to pay for ADT?” Or, “I don’t use the library; can I have a voucher to Borders?”

By MBW

January 30, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

As a former APS teacher, I am strongly in favor of more charter schools.

The charter schools in APS outperform their counterparts in the same neighborhoods handily in most cases.

But I also urge some caution. I now live in Arizona, where charter schools are much more common….and not all of them are good..and some are just as bad as the schools they seek to compete with.

KEEP THE STANDARDS HIGH….But GIVE PARENTS MORE CHOICE

By MBW

January 30, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

As a former APS teacher, I am strongly in favor of more charter schools.

The charter schools in APS outperform their counterparts in the same neighborhoods handily in most cases.

But I also urge some caution. I now live in Arizona, where charter schools are much more common….and not all of them are good..and some are just as bad as the schools they seek to compete with.

KEEP THE STANDARDS HIGH….But GIVE PARENTS MORE CHOICE

By delores managan

January 30, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

Yes Charted Schools located in neighborhoods would definitely save tax-payers dollars.With smaller facilities within walking distances and neighborhood volunteer I do believe would provide a constructive environment conductive to learning. More Charted Schools are a very profitable idea.

By Tony

January 30, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

jim d said This omission would mean people in north Ga. might end up funding charters in S. Ga and I’m not too sure I care much for that idea.

According to the constitution of the state of Georgia it is the state’s responsibility to provide for the education of all the children of the state not just those in the northern portion.

By Tony

January 30, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this

Tater, they hold a gun to you to get your tax money? Wow! They get mine before I ever see it. They must be holding the gun to the payroll director.

By Love my 4 kids

January 31, 2008 1:59 AM | Link to this

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind….

“They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no bud; it shall never produce meal. If it should produce, aliens would swallow it up.”
“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”

By Exteacher

January 31, 2008 4:21 AM | Link to this

Georgia Association of Educators (GEA) IS a union as it is a part of NEA (National Association of Educators). It has been declared so by the IRS. Both GAE and PAGE (Professional Association of Georgia Educators) put a lot of time, money and effort into influencing the legislation in this state. In my opinion these organizations are the primary reason that we do not have school vouchers.

By Rural Ga. Mom

January 31, 2008 6:56 AM | Link to this

We live in a system where there is one school in the county (one hs, one middle, etc.) The next closest school is in the next county-about 35min. each way. Our entire system is Charter. What is the purpose? The admin. did it for additional funds. There have been no changes, other than hiriing additional board office staff and another super. In our situation, the term “charter” is trendy, but is not being implemented correctly.

By NICK

January 31, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this

Instead of wasting more tax payer money on “new” public schools, which will eventually fail, because of frivilous law suits brought on by illegals and other minorities, because their kids are to stupid to get in, why don’t we make these “military schools?”.

Then the kids who are lazy, disrespectful and worthless, can be put into prison, where most of them will wind up anyway.

Just think….Put these punks in prison early and society won’t be burdeoned with their illigitimate kids and drain on social services…

By Chris Pettigrew

January 31, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this

We need more moms to stay home and homeschool.

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Exteacher

GAE is NOT a union per the State of GA law. They are unable to do things that unions in other States do. They have no authority, no power (with the State or School Systems), and all they can do is plead their case and “hope” someone listens. This isn’t their fault because the laws in GA make a real teacher’s union impossible.

jd -

Um, no. I am not lying. I first taught in a charter school. Per our charter, we only accepted particular students (thus, we could ‘hand pick’ which ones we wanted). And, once the students were admitted, the administration regularly used the threat of expulsion from the charter school and forced them to their home school. In fact, the Principal did just that on a number of occasions.

Please don’t call someone a liar when you don’t know the facts yourself! I saw it work in my charter school, first hand. And, you can quote any law that you want to, but as most of us know (well, possibly not you), the law can be interpreted many ways.

Now, I am not saying that ALL charter schools work this way. But, I do know that mine did!

Seriously, think for yourself a minute (gulp!). Imagine a charter school that wants to start up that specializes in music. Do you really think that a student that is tone deaf with no interest or skill whatsoever in music would be in that charter school? Why would that charter school accept or even try to force music down their throat?

Also, your interpretation would make the word ‘charter’ school indistinguishable from a regular school. What advantage is there to become charter (from an education perspective)? As even your quotation of the law describes, a charter school already falls under the regular school system.

Possibly my charter school had an excess number of applicants and were therefore able to select the students? I don’t know the ‘why’ but I do know this occurred! In fact, I was on the acceptance committee one year!

BTW - Magnet schools work in much the same way. The magnet school ‘selects’ the students to attend. DeKalb School of the Arts has a selection process for their applicants and not every student that applies gets in. And, if a student there let’s their gpa fall below a certain level, they are expelled and sent back to their home school. Feel free to google search more laws to quote, but I am just sharing the way things work in the real world.

Tater

As I have said multiple times, my problem with vouchers is that the $6,000 you want for your voucher is highly unlikely to be just YOUR tax money. And, I don’t want MY tax money given to YOU like that. Rather than YOU running away from your local home school to where ever, why not work to make the improvements in your current home school?

I just disagree with the concept of taking money from me (a single taxpayer with no children) and handing it to anyone else (someone with children) for any reason. I agree with the concept of the local government providing education for all citizens using all citizen tax money.

Now, if you were to argue that there should be no school taxes for anyone, then I would be completely okay with you using what would have been your tax money to send your child to private school. I would love that! Why? Because I have no children and then I would have no school taxes! However, I just don’t think that you want that.

By VoteIndependent

January 31, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

It’s scary reading some of these posts! You think the government should control your money? Wow! Sounds like a bunch of bleeding heart Hilary supporters to me!

By jim d

January 31, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Well JM,

Well there you go. Ignorance of the law as an excuse! Were you trained by JAW?

Want to know what is wrong with education today? No probably not.

When we have anyone watching the law being broken and do nothing.

I believe it was edmund burke who said; “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

I’ve provided you the truth, now what you do with it is entirely up to you. I’d suggest you take the time to read the law, understand what it says, and if you see it being ignored that you do something rather than hide your head in the sand and espouse lies for truth.

By jim d

January 31, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

FYI JM,

It would appear by mulling through applications, basing acceptance to a charter based on any criteria other than the residency requirement and then through a random drawing as perscribed by Ga. Statute, that you actually violated the law yourself. I’m not sure I’d have admitted that.

By WFC

January 31, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

Exteacher… As a retired teacher and administrator (31 years in Ga. public and private schools), I must beg to differ. Neither GAE nor PAGE are unions because they do NOT have the power to STRIKE. Both are lobbying groups. A teacher who has a dispute with a school system is “on his own” with no union protection.

I’m all for letting you guys who want to control “what you pay in taxes” and go educate your kids. What I’m NOT willing to do is let you control OTHER PEOPLE’S TAX MONEY. I live in North Fulton and my son attends Northview. I live in a $250,000 house and can tell you that my actual property tax, though substantial, comes nowhere close to paying the actual cost of my son’s education. Take your crummy $3000 and go educate your kid. Good luck!

By jim d

January 31, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

Did you actually read my post or just fail to understand the law is quite explicit on the admission part?

“A local charter school shall enroll students in the following manner: A local charter school shall enroll any student who resides in the school system in which the local charter school is located and who submits a timely application as specified in the charter unless the number of applications exceeds the capacity of a program, class, grade level, or building. In such case, all such applicants shall have an equal chance of being admitted through a random selection process unless otherwise prohibited by law; provided, however, that a local charter school shall give enrollment preference to such students who reside in the attendance zone specified in the charter and may give enrollment preference to a sibling of a resident student currently enrolled in the local charter school.”

Pethaps Frank Zappa was correct. “The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.”

By mmm

January 31, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

Thank you—JustMe for being a whistle blower on a behavior that should not have happened, but that you saw. Please look at my 6:44 post. I believe I know which specific Dekalb school that used to be a charter.
Part of the back story is that I heard this pattern was happening and that the central office was not happy and told the administration that they were going to take their share of NCLB transfers without using the charter as an excuse to fill themself with other first and then bounce all problems. And that there likely would be no more conversion charters approved in Dekalb specifically because that would not tolerate that as the underlieing reason to become a conversion charter. It was after that “understanding” was made clear to school administrators that the school’s charter was dropped (I guess that sort of varefies that the “waiving of rules for innovation” that was going on really wasn’t all that critical to what that school wanted to do. There have been no further conversion charters considered since that time in Dekalb. Yet with all the “choice” bla bla bla we see out of the central office, you would think we actually would be talking about all kinds of waiver requests from state rules to do these new programs. Justme, I’m sure you probably heard a different stated reason for dropping the charter. What was it?

By Tater

January 31, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

My Dearest JustMe

I just disagree with the concept of taking money from me (a single taxpayer with no children) and handing it to anyone else (someone with children) for any reason.

I agree with you. Can you tell me how I can stop having the Feds and the State take my money for social programs that I don’t believe in?

Additionally, please read the following analysis provided by the Andrew Young School of Policy Studies. Start on page 12 and work your way down. $11,000 was actually lower than what is the actually costs, but hey, let’s not let those pesky little facts get in the way.

Tony Too Funny… The IRS is the only “business” that can throw you in jail for not paying a debt. And we give them this power?

jim d Keep up the good work. JustMe and her folks need a job. Remember facts in many public schools get in the way.

http://www.atlanta.k12.ga.us/content/schools/CPSComparison.pdf

By tater

January 31, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

WFC

Take your crummy $3000 and go educate your kid. Good luck!

That’s all I’ve been asking for. Can you please tell me how to do that?

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

VoteIndependent

You completely miss the point.

We (our society) has deemed that all citizens should be provided some minimum level of education (maybe you disagree with this?). We (our society) agreed that to do this, so each individual should ‘chip in’ the money to do this for the benefit of all. We (our society) has then created the public school system to provide said education. Now - all of this is a given. You may disagree with all of it, but that’s the way it is.

As a single person with no children, I would scream if the government took money from me and gave it directly to someone with children to spend as they see fit (see vouchers). Certainly, you cannot agree with that!

And, I do support Ms. Clinton. What’s your point?

jd -

Yeah, I may have broken the law. However, I was doing as my boss instructed. Personally, as I said before, laws can be interpreted many ways. You choose to interpret it one way - and maybe my old charter school chose to interpret it another way.

Finally, jd, you ask if I want to know what is wrong with education today… I am sure that you have the answer because obviously you are all-knowing and all-seeing.

By the way, my current school is not charter.

I agree with WTC!!!! If you want to control YOUR tax money, fine. I will control mine, also. Take your small portion and be gone. But, do not expect to control MY portion!!!!

By jim d

January 31, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

mmm,

And thank you for explaining how jm could be somewaht correct. It may have happened as she has stated. However that doesn’t make the contention correct that charters can do this. It still is a violation of the law and they will be shut down.

By tater

January 31, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

JustMe

Can you possibly explain to me why the DeKalb County School System website does not show the NI and AYP of the schools that are in the system?

I know you are probably not responsible for the website, just wanted you to be aware that the State of the System address said nothing about what a failure the system actually is.

By tater

January 31, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

JustMe

I agree with WTC!!!! If you want to control YOUR tax money, fine. I will control mine, also. Take your small portion and be gone. But, do not expect to control MY portion!!!!

Please, please tell me how I can stop sending my school tax money to Fulton county… The more you post, the more you are supporting many of the theories here regarding alternatives to public schools..

By mmm

January 31, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Ugh! Forgive my typo’s above.

Just me. Was my guess that you were at the Dekalb High School that used to be a charter?

By jim d

January 31, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

JM,

Are you aware that many people were put to death after WWII for “doing as their boss instructed”?

Are you aware that most countries have a law which basically says. “The responsibility of superiors does not exempt subordinates from any of their individual responsibilities”

Are you aware that old excuse “I was only doing as I was instructed” is feeble and most certainly not a very smart defense in a court of law?

By mmm

January 31, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Jim d. You are very correct that what she saw was immoral, but “conversion” charters that start with an assigned attendance zone and have only the additional space as “choice” are inherently a different beast. As to whether it was illegal—it depends on whether the state people were savy enough not to allow criteria in the actual charter and to also require that a certain level of true innovation is present. The state DOE has been growing in their own capacity to watch these things. This is why the innovation bar is being raised and we are seeing more schools that want to do something counciled into using the state “wavier of rules and laws” rule. The question of whether the Charter contract legally trumps for the local school administration the NCLB requirement that the district provide transfers I do not believe has been litigated. This is why, in my head I do not consider a school a true charter unless every child in the building is the result of a families’s choice, AND the individual school has fiscal autonomy for it’s own hiring and budget.

Conversion charters were largely a grab of Federal monies that were the only allowed variety early in the existance of the program in GA. And a great many of them dropped the status when the money was used up. There are a few that truely have a unique innovation that requires important waivers—-but many simply like the branding and autonomy from the central offices that they think it will provide.

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

jd - Whatever. Has anyone ever said you were exasperating?

Tater - I have no problem with school choice whatsoever….. just not with MY tax money! I don’t know how anyone can legally stop paying taxes. jd will tell you that I know nothing of the law.

I have repeatedly said, and will say again… I would support paying no school tax and let the parents with the kids pay for their own education. That way, they can have all the choices that they want - just not with my tax money.

Also, I rarely go to the DeKalb web site. You can find AYP information on the State of GA Education web site. I believe there you can search per school system.

mmm - I never said or confirmed which school I worked at that was charter at the time. Please don’t make assumptions.

By mmm

January 31, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Jim d Calm down. JM apparently knew this was morally wrong. Has brought it to the attention of others (this blog). And I think has switched schools.

Also, I expect someone complained enough that the central office became aware of the issue and it has ceased with the lapse of the charter.

And I have had and heard conversations at the state DOE charter personnel that make it clear that, this is an area of a charter application that they are very careful about and emphasize in charter writing trainings.

So let’s just agree that things have evolved, but that any tool can be used for good or ill depending on the motives of the user and the quality of the oversight and rules that they function under. And that with chartering, this continues to evolve.

By tater

January 31, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

*JustMe

I would support paying no school tax and let the parents with the kids pay for their own education. That way, they can have all the choices that they want - just not with my tax money.

I paid school taxes AND private school tuition. That was MY choice. Again, I DON’T HAVE A CHOICE!!!

Also, I rarely go to the DeKalb web site. You can find AYP information on the State of GA Education web site. I believe there you can search per school system.

I did. That’s where I got the information from. It’s really interesting to me that it was not addressed. Could it be that the DeKalb County School System doesn’t want people to know?

By tater

January 31, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

*JustMe

I would support paying no school tax and let the parents with the kids pay for their own education. That way, they can have all the choices that they want - just not with my tax money.

I paid school taxes AND private school tuition. That was MY choice. Again, I DON’T HAVE A CHOICE with the current system!!

Also, I rarely go to the DeKalb web site. You can find AYP information on the State of GA Education web site. I believe there you can search per school system.

I did. That’s where I got the information from. It’s really interesting to me that it was not addressed. Could it be that the DeKalb County School System doesn’t want people to know?

By msb

January 31, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

You can find AYP info for Dekalb at http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/superintendent/nclb/ayp2007.html

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

tater -

It was your choice to pay both. No one forced you. The only requirement by law was for you to pay taxes. From there, it was your choice to pay extra to send your child to private school. You could have chosen to send your child to the local public school, and then work with those folks to make any improvements that you saw fit. Instead, you made a CHOICE to not send your child there and to pay extra money for the private school.

I believe (maybe wrongly) that the DeKalb web site does have a link to the GA DOE web site. IMHO, it would be reduntant and cost money for the DeKalb web site to host the same information found on the GA DOE.

If you did go to the GA DOE web site, and you found all of DeKalb County Schools, then you certainly saw a number of schools that have made AYP and are not considered “failing.”

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

msb - Thanks for the info. According to that, it seems that 10 Dekalb High Schools didn’t make AYP and 12 did make AYP. So, there are places in Dekalb that seem to be succeeding.

By Rhonda K.

January 31, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

Well, like many other parents in the South Cobb area, I’m beyond disappointed in the School Board and the local schools. I do have my child in a new charter school, and I’ve got to be honest, it’s been a bumpy road, but the level of work and expectations of the children are uncomparable to the work of the local schools in the area….

By tater

January 31, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

JustMe

You are correct again. I did make the choice to pay taxes in a FAILED school district because of bad research on my part investigating the school district. I then made the choice to pull my kids out of that failed district and send them to private school. Yes, the government FORCES me (like you) to pay school taxes. I asked for improvements in the failed school and was ignored by an administration that didn’t care.

My point about the NI and AYP is that DeKalb doesn’t have it (unless it is hidden) on the website. Don’t you believe in open government? Don’t you believe that this should be posting this important information?

BTW, you need to look at the facts on the DOE website. You will be amazed at the schools, especially Title 1, that are failures. DeKalb has a 21% failure rate. Do you find this acceptable?

The title 1 school children are the ones who would directly benefit from a charter or private school. It is apparent that DeKalb doesn’t want you to know that they have failed schools.. Parents should be given some kind of choice. For the parents who don’t care, which apparently is a pretty good chunk of the county, there is absolutely nothing you or I can do about that…

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

tater -

Um, that information was found on the DeKalb web site. See a previous post by msb that even includes the link.

I’m sorry that you bought a house in a school district that you don’t like. House hunters should be told by their realtor about the schools. Blame them first?

As far as school administrators not listening…. remember that you can go ‘over their head’ to the school system people to complain. Usually that works, from my experience.

By blueja

January 31, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

“Parents should be given some kind of choice. For the parents who don’t care, which apparently is a pretty good chunk of the county, there is absolutely nothing you or I can do about that…”

TATER, Aren’t you aware that if a school is in “NI” the county must allow you to send your child to another school that is not “failing”? If your child was at a Title 1 school, they even have to provide transportation. Talk about CHOICE! You need to choose to inform yourself. Google is your friend, brother! You have no excuse.

By tater

January 31, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

blueja

I know that you have a choice to send your child to another school if it is a NI school. Apparently 21% of the parents in DeKalb don’t care what kind of education their kids get, hence why this state is 41st out of 50 states. I don’t have time to look up Clayton schools and APS, my guess is that they are even worse.

I keep pretty informed blueja. The facts are what they are. Can’t help it if you don’t understand that.

Choice is when I have the ability to take my kids OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Going from a failed NI school to another school is not an option if the school is a good distance away, such as Title 1 schools would be.

I just feel bad that the supporters of Public Schools refuse to see that we are failing the kids. Hey, it is what it is.

By Phil

January 31, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts to this excellent discussion.

First, reagarding public funding of education it is important to remember that it is more than just our property taxes that pay for public schools. In fact local tax dollars only account for about 50% of the total public funding for public schools in Georgia. The other half come from our state and federal tax dollars. And the total amount is pretty close to $11,000 per child. This year Georgia will spend over $17 Billion on public education for about 1.6 Million public school students.

Second, regarding selecting students at charter schools, that has happened from time to time in the past. However, it was very rare and in each case that I am aware of, the school has since changed its practice or is no longer a chartr school. There may occasionally still be an instance of ‘counselling out’ some difficult students fro a charter school. However, that is also extremely rare and, when discovered should be dealt with severly. Charter schools should, and for the most part do, follow the same or very similar guidelines for the suspension or expulsion of students.

Finally, on the main question of do we need more charters. I would say yes. But more importantly we need more of some of the best aspects of charters. Those are, in my opinion, the ability to develop the curriculum and learning environment for a public school at the school level rather than the state or even district wide level. Charter schools can be tailored to the unique needs of a particular community. Also, the fact that parents of all income levels are gaining the chance to have more control over their kids’ education is a great thing. As more and more people gain this ability and gain experience in how to utilize this ability, the benefits of public school choice will continue to increase.

By the way, kudos to the poster who used the term “chartered schools.” It is important to remember that charter is not just an adjective, but a verb. And, in my opinion, the verb form of the word is far more important. Ted Kolderie would be proud.

By Tater

January 31, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Phil

Thank you so much for your insight. After an attempt by JustMe and now blueya to discredit the facts it’s nice to know that, in my opinion, that the informed people are the ones who care about ALL kids education, not just their own.

By msb

January 31, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

tater, don’t let AYP be the lone arbiter of whether a school is “bad” both of my sons attend a HS in DeKalb that did not make AYP—not enough kids scored high enough on the GHSGT math portion to make AYP—many students passed the test, but not with high enough scores to make AYP. Last year alone, this school produced at least one Bill Gates Scholar, and countless others that earned academic scholarships. You really have to take the time to find out the reasons the school failed to make AYP.

By tater

January 31, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

msb

My guess is that you are an involved parent who took the time to instill values in your children’s education. There are many msb’s out there, trying to guide their children to achieve despite the status of the school.

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Tater -

Please let me know what “facts” that I actively attempted to discredit?

Also, your definition of “choice” is not the common definition. In your last post, you said that your definition is simply to remove your child from public schools - and you did just that. So then, didn’t you make that “choice?”

The more common definition of choice includes how NCLB defines it - to give a student in a failing school (as defined by NCLB) the option to go to another school that isn’t failing. You don’t consider that a “choice?”

As I read your posts more and more your motives are apparent - you just want tax money to pay for your child’s private education. Sorry buddy - that ain’t gonna happen.

By tater

January 31, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Ok JustMe, this is my last posting since you apparently refuse to believe the facts that: 21% of the DeKalb County Schools are NI 24% of the Atlanta Public Schools are NI and 33% of the Clayton County Schools are NI..

I hope you have a wonderful day…

By JustMe

January 31, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

tater -

I never refused to believe those. Show me in what post I said that those are wrong?

By Ansel

February 1, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

Charter Schools serve a higher percentage of minority students and free and reduced lunch students and achieving at a higher rates than traditional public schools on CRCT, SAT, GHGT and percentage of schools making AYP.

So why would Georgia, a state which has always been battling the likes of Alabama, Mississippi and South Carolina for the unenviable position of 50th not want more charter public schools? I think the public wants charters; school boards are the ones who are protecting their kingdoms, not allowing the public to make choices in public education.

I don;t know about you, but I have more choices picking out dog food than I currently do living in rural Georgia.