Get Schooled

By Jeff

January 28, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

WOW Laura… Hot button topic on the first day! Good job! (Did Bridget mention something about ‘don’t show any fear, because they can smell it from a mile away’??)

In my experience with this, the parents have often let the kids rule the house and the kid thinks they can then rule the teacher in a similar fashion. I for one won’t take it, and since proper conflict resolution has never been taught by the parent to the kid, the kid thinks violence is the answer. Next thing you know, the teacher has a scar on his hand from a stapler being thrown at him or from the student drawing blood after the teacher was trying to stop said student from assaulting another student. (Both cases that happened to me personally in my last teaching job.)

By SET

January 28, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Hello Laura. I like to make Contrarian arguments in many cases. I believe Educrats have a problem with political correctness which leads to the problems we see now in Education we did not have 3 generations ago.

My point on this story is that any teacher in the US Public Schools who cannot subdue a 7th grade girl should not be in the school. Such elderly, infirm or weak teachers should be teaching at K-3 or college level or not at all.

The public schools, especially in the US urban areas, have been reduced to dumping grounds for the underclass. They are typically run in an unsafe manner both for staff and students. You wouldn’t hire a weak or infirm individual for a jail guard or a meter maid for that matter nowadays. We know that puberty is being forced downwards, occurring in black students as early as 8 or 9 years old. A 7th grader is typically 13 years old.

A teacher in the 7th grade of an urban school simply has to be physically capable of incapacitating a 7th grade girl in a hurry. Otherwise they are of little use in protecting themselves or anyone else. I don’t see combat skills as optional for someone who choses to do such work.

My own 7th grade (1-8th grade) teachers were Irish and Italian Nuns. I realize now they were not 6 feet tall. But they could physically intimidate grown men (Cops for example). I remember an incident once where a girl reported a flasher near the school playground and Sr Immaculate (Italian) and one of the Irish Nuns in tow went after him. They didn’t bother to wait for the cops. Fortunately for him they didn’t find him. They were all very good at improvising weapons for ordinary objects.

Our parents knew we were relatively safe at that school from anything.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

While I concur that a student should never lay hand on a teacher, I have to face the reality that there is a growing loss of respect for the profession in part due to being able to pick up a paper anyday and reading of teachers sexually abusing students.

A nationwide Associated Press investigation published in October found 2,570 educators whose teaching credentials were revoked, denied, surrendered or sanctioned from 2001 through 2005 following allegations of sexual misconduct. Experts who track sexual abuse say those cases are representative of a much deeper problem because of underreporting.

JM, before you go off on me please understand I do not think this is representative of ALL or even MOST teachers, but that it MAY be adding to the problem. (well we knew it wouldn’t last, didn’t we?)

By Erin

January 28, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

Hi Laura! Welcome to the blog!

As for the topic? Well, I think it’s a lot of things and I know others here will get into this much deeper than I will, but besides kids pretty much ruling the roost at home and not being taught better, isn’t a HUGE part of the problem also spineless administrators not backing the teacher when the parent(s) complain(s)?

Obviously, the problem doesn’t come down to one or even two underlying issues, but many, many things. The solution won’t be easy, but a great deal of what’s wrong with the schools can’t be fixed without someone sticking to his/her guns at each school!

By Jeff

January 28, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

jim:

90% of teachers will NEVER touch a student - for ANY reason, including self defense.

Of the remaining 10%, I’d say at least 7-9% of those would only touch a student in defense of either themselves, another student, or another faculty/staff member. (I myself am in that 7-9%.)

The problem is - as with virtually any other negative thing the mass media reports on - that due to the near constant stories in the mass media, the public at large thinks the problem is actually FAR worse than it really is.

For example: In any given year, there are something like 3000+ teachers in Bartow County alone. (Not counting Cartersville City schools in this.) Know how many cases of sexual abuse by a teacher I remember even being SUSPECTED in my 20 years of dealing with that system on some level?

MAYBE 15. IN TWENTY YEARS. And not all of those would I classify as the teacher being a ‘predator’. More often, it was a twisted sense of ‘love’. (One memorable case involved a female teacher I had actually had a few years earlier ‘falling in love’ with one of her 13 yo students.)

MOST cases of sexual indecency on a school campus are the exact same kind you would find in your OWN office: coworkers (in the case of schools, teachers/admin) having rendezvous in the copy room, supply closet, etc.

By V for Vendetta

January 28, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Yowza Jim! Way to initiate the uninitiated! I’m not sure I support the comparison, but I understand it.

There is something to be said for what Jeff and SET are hinting at. Namely, many of todays kids have no fear of ANY type of physical violence being visited upon them for inappropriate behavior — often times physical in nature, itself. It’s completely unacceptable.

I’m not saying that we should go so far as to reinstitute the hitting of kids in school, no matter how much fun that would be! I’m saying that the penalties for parents’ seemingly inabilities to raise their kids to function within the confines of a civilized society should be harsh and swift.

For example:

And attack like the one that occurred at Lilburn middle should be followed by immediate expulsion from ALL Georgia educational institutions. To hell with this free public education bunk. Education should NOT be a RIGHT. All citizens should have access to a free education, but once it is diregarded in such a severe manner, the opportunity should be removed. Immediately.

How long will we continue to give these pathetic excuses for human beings chance after chance? We have to send a message. We have to let these wastes know that we won’t tolerate them in education any longer. I don’t care how big we have to build the jails, lock ‘em up. What good will they ever contribute to society?

By Vicki

January 28, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

What happened to cause this violence and disrespect? Are teachers, parents or students at fault? And what can we do to fix it?
I feel that the problem of the violence and disrespect stems from the state of our SOCIETY in general. The TV shows, movies, the violent video games are representative of the exposure to violence and disrespect at such an early age. No wonder they don’t think the rules apply to them.

The girls needs to find another place to attend school.

By Jeff

January 28, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

V:

How about returning to the days of public whippings? (Think the one scene from Glory or even Starship Troopers.)

Think about it: Would you REALLY do the things kids typically get away with if you knew someone the size of Paul Levesque (Triple H), Dave Bautista (Batista), or John Cena was going to tie you to a post and beat the living HADES out of you with a leather strap?

I know I wouldn’t!

By Plainly Spoken

January 28, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

The only real solution is to designate a number of separate “maximum security” schools for those who have a history of actual or threatened school violence — one strike, and you’re “out” (yes, kids could “earn” their way back into the mainstream school for their district for demonstrated good behavior).

At these “maximum security” schools, there must be a legal presumption protecting teachers and staff from tort liability in cases where students must be subdued — i.e., no liability absent a showing of a clear abuse of discretion.

This is the ONLY way to protect those students who are at school to learn — and the teachers who want to teach them.

And yes, there inevitably will be cries of “isms” based on the demographics of who ends up at the “maximum security” schools … unfortunatly and inevitably arising from the inordinate (if not predominant) number of minority kids coming from single-parent households, with ineffective (if any) parenting. The communities — and especially minority communities — must stand firm nevertheless, if we’re going to stop this absurd trend.

By SET

January 28, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

We shouldn’t blur the issue of physical combat with sexual matters. The question of the day is a teacher in a combat situation with an unruly 7th grade girl. It happens. Kids get physical with each other and within their families.

A bad outcome such as this where the teacher allows herself to get injured reflects bad training at the school and perhaps a bad environment - operating in an unsafe manner - where students don’t all know that fighting a teacher means that you don’t go to that school anymore.

I believe that schools should have clearly discussed policies about managing known dangerous/unstable students, and for dealing with ordinary students who are working themselves up to violence. I doubt at schools do this because to plan for a situation means they envision it happening and schools don’t like to think this way. Maybe the other readers can tell us about that.

If a student strikes a teacher, what is the typical protocol for the moments following? I’d like to hear about that. Is there any protocol at most school for the immediate response to this?

Sexual Indecency is not high on the list of likely problems. I think you have more health, drug and violence related emergencies.

A related question for Laura - what do schools typically do when teenagers are passing out at their desks at 10am? (Can’t stay awake, keep head up) I noticed that once when I was at a Public High School as a speaker. Everyone else ignored it. It wouldn’t have been tolerated when I was in school.

By Lisa B.

January 28, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

I agree with V that violent students should be expelled from ALL Georgia schools. If the student attacked an adult, I feel certain that student has a record of harming students as well. None of us wants our children housed with violent students. Because of federal law, schools are punished for poor students attendance, and are afraid to suspend children, no matter the infraction. As we hear all the time, “there are no more “get ‘em outta here’ kids.” We have to keep them all in our classroom, no matter what they do, and teach them to the best of our ability. At what price? My son’s middle school has fights every week now. Just a few years ago, the school had a fight or two per year. If students fought, the police took them away, the parents had to pay a fine to pick them up, AND the students were suspended at least three days. Now students get sentence to In-School-Supsension for fighting. If the school involves the police, the school gets punished by being put on the “Dangerous Schools” list. If the students are suspended, the schools are punished because to make AYP, fewer than 15% of students can miss 15 days of school.

It is all very frustrating.

By Tony

January 28, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Welcome Laura. And, I must say you’ve chosen an excellent “hot button” for discussion today.

Students like this one that attack teachers have no place in public education. Once we realize that there is a responsibility on the part of the parents and students to maintain discipline, then we might make progress in other areas. Teachers should not be subjected to any form of physical attack.

By V for Vendetta

January 28, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff, excellent point.

With no fear of physical retribution, the kids inappropriate physical actions are getting out of control. I’m not saying that you EVER need to hit your kid growing up, but that doesn’t mean that your child shouldn’t have a fear of you doing it or know that you wouldn’t hesitate to if the need arose.

Because of my physical size, I would NEVER put my hands on a student unless he/she physically assaulted me, and even then I probably wouldn’t unless it caused me severe pain (as in gushing open wounds or broken bones) or put my life in danger. I like my job, and although I might be able to easily subdue a student, I fear the repurcussions of such action. Too many spineless admins out there for that.

Look, we have to do something drastic as a society. Plainly Spoken was absolutely correct. It might not be pleasant, but unless we (finally) stick to our guns, nothing will change.

Or we could get John Cena to enforce the rules (LOL, Jeff!).

By jim d

January 28, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

SET,

Teachers being beaten by students don’t sell papers. Teacherss sexually assulting students does.

While not necessarilly a root cause, it certainly may add fuel to the fire. Actually I agree that much of the problem is a societal issue

By Jeff

January 28, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

V:

Laugh all you want, but the honesy-to-God answer I didn’t do a lot of crazy things back when I was growing up was simple:

My dad had arms that LOOKED to be about as thick as Cena’s (they might not have been, but he DID have a very physical job) and a very greasy, oily work belt - and he wasn’t afraid to use those massive arms to swing that belt pretty dang hard down on my backside.

It only took a couple three of those a year (some years more than others) before I got the point!

But that goes back to a point I’ve long held: If the pain is severe enough, the behaviors that cause the pain RARELY happen. And the more sure the person doing the behavior is that the pain is going to come if the behavior happens, no questions asked, the less likely the behavior is. (For example, the song ‘Love without End Amen’ is a good reflection of how my dad operated, and how I intend to. “Fighting was against the rules and it didn’t matter why.”)

By jim d

January 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

V,

That wouldn’t work, too many young ladies would be standing in line for a spanking.

here’s a good place to start laying blame if that is what we wish to do.

The United Nations Convention on Children’s Rights.

That convention asks that nations include the 18th year as part of the definition of childhood. The result is that those instances where 18 year olds are treated as adults within the criminal justice system are rare.

In the case of juvenile offenders, there is a division between youth 12 years of age and over and those under 12. For those over 12, there is a juvenile facility whose main emphasis is on rehabilitation and re- socialization. There is no punitive action whatsoever taken with those under 12. They are referred to social agencies which are prepared to deal with wayward children.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Laura,

My sincere thanks. To be honest, I had some reservations that you might just blog along the lines of all the “feel good” pieces you write.

Kudo’s for such a great topic today!

By HeyNow

January 28, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

Disruptive kids have lousy parents.

We have a 4th grader who had gotten bad marks for conduct on his last report card. I emailed his teacher to follow up and got another bad report - this turned into no tv and in bed 30 min early for a week for the kid. A follow-up email 2 weeks later showed that his behavior was greatly improved.

Students will get the schools their parents deserve. Teachers, try to teach in a school where most (i.e. more than 50%) of the kids have a married mother and father at home, and you should be ok.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Perhaps we should look at the age of legal accountability in Iran.

People are accountable for their crimes at a very early age: 9 years for girls and 15 for boys. This means the law treats a 9-year-old girl as severely as a 40-year-old grown-up in case she commits a crime.

By Namei

January 28, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Build more schools, reduce overcrowding. Lack of respect goes both ways. Teachers simply can’t reach out to troubled or untroubled kids due to sheer volume and weird expectations (NCLB). When I was young, teachers treated kids with respect most of the time and disrespect was light. Students really didn’t have a reason to distrust the teachers, fight them, or anything. If there was a discipline problem, it was handled outside the classroom.

These days, teachers simply don’t have the time to deal with the volume of kids. Discipline issues are overlooked, schools have become a wild jungle. In weak efforts to respond, Admins pass more rules, make the school an unwelcome environment, and the kids hate everyday they’re present. This builds up over time into discipline, grades, attendance, behavior, emotional, and even mental problems. Yes, I do believe many parents don’t know how or don’t want to parent their children. But, the poor teachers, instead of seeing it as an opportunity (especially at younger grades) to reach out and be the role model that kid needs, they can’t. Then the kid grows older, angrier, and fails to thrive. The teachers and administrators have their blame, too.

Build more schools, reduce overcrowding. Some of the kids that “rule the house” might be justifiable. They might actually be the most intelligent and stable person in their house. Treating all kids the same, with the same set of rules and a lack of common sense or humanity will backfire (zero tolerance). Disciplined kids should be rewarded with appropriate disciplined classes. Undisciplined kids should be removed to another part of the school into their own class or an entirely separate school. Bullies and discipline problems should be dealt with sternly and monitored for improvement. Quit the culture of negative attention and provide clear ongoing opportunities to receive positive feedback and reward for good behavior.

The middle schooler should be expelled from public schools and required to attend a specific behavior focused school or class. Since she was arrested, isn’t there a juvenile detention school facility? Furthermore, we don’t know many details. Was she on medication or drugs? Was her behavior leading up to this incident? What do her psychological records report? Why was she still on the premises when she clearly expressing violence toward teacher? To expel from all schools and not educate means there’s one more uneducated criminal on our streets. Why would anyone want that? This is an opportunity to be address the problem, improve her chances, and turnaround a rather young criminal.

A parent and student would be fools to blindly follow teachers these days. A good parent would teach their student to think for themselves and determine appropriate reactions. Yes, said student will make errors in their judgment, but isn’t that a part of their growth? And those mistakes, isn’t that what suspensions and detentions were designed for? Instead of treating every kid like a criminal, the schools need to treat them fairly and appropriate to their grade and age. If the kids fails to meet those basic expectations, then consequences.

Teachers are failing themselves left and right. As previous posters have mentioned, the reports of sexual and abuse crop up everywhere. A teacher asked my own to lick her foot. Another teacher licked the first teacher’s foot to show it’s OK. All of this for a piece of candy. Another teacher locked me in a closet for talking too much. I’m all for timeouts, but simply talking shouldn’t require a dark closet with a locked door. These incidents, specifically non-criminal, are grossly underreported. Sometimes it seems that the teachers and administrators are the ones with the real judgment problems.

By Dana @ DOE

January 28, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

Way to “ease on in” to the blogosphere, Laura! :-)

By Grace

January 28, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

It’s unreal how many post blamed everyone except the parents. All they have to do is look at the violent kids family life. I would bet 8 our of 10 are from single family homes where the mother is 12-16yrs older than the child.

By Teacher, Too

January 28, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Wow- I was hoping this topic would come up. Not only do kids have a general disprespect for authority in any sense (teachers, police, parents, etc…) but they fear no one. I believe that this stems from parents not parenting (but being a “friend”) and the insidiousness of media.

I have noted previously on the blog a wonderful book on parenting “The Blessing of a Skinned Knee”- its premise is raising self-reliant children using Jewish teachings. It’s well-worth the money even if you’re not Jewish.

Okay, having said that- back to topic. I wonder about the students in elementary and middle school who are juvenile delinquents- hardcore juvies. Ones who wear ankle bracelets and have committed felony-type crimes, but because they are juvie, they are returned to school and no one knows they are a danger because of confidentiality issues.

Where is the outrage- kids who have committed violent acts yet are returned to school as if nothing happened. (I’m not talking about a school fight, but a kid throwing a knife or raping a family member).

By JustMe

January 28, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

This is no, absolutely NO, excuse for any student to hit a teacher.

For whatever ridiculous reason, it has become popular for students, parents, and/or administrators to reason why a student hits a teacher. The reason is completely irrelevent - there is no excuse, period.

In the case mentioned in the article, the student just hit the teacher - the student beat the teacher. Not only should the student be expelled from school, but the teacher should file charges with the police.

When a teacher does anything wrong (read touch a child), it is plastered on the 11:00 news, the professional certification is yanked, and often the teacher lands in jail.

However, a student (let’s say one at the age of 13) can beat down a teacher and draw blood with little or no consequences?

I have known a female teacher to be sexually ‘felt up’ by a male student (15 years old) in front of the class as she was distributing papers. What happened? The student was ‘counseled’ and the teacher was reprimanded. Why? Well of course, it was the teacher’s fault! This sounded like the excuse that it is the females fault that she is raped….. How sad. What happened to the teacher? She left that school system as soon as she could! What happened to that student? He continued to get in trouble and is likely in jail by now.

By Mark

January 28, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

SET is so off base. Public schools are safe. There will be rare instances everywhere in society. Oh me.

What is the main reason for discipline problems at school? Some parents support their children’s misbehavior and even encourage it.

Typical phone calls might go like the following:

Teacher: “I’m calling because your son was very disrespectful to me today and I am hoping you could speak to him about it.”

Parent: “Well what did you say to him to make him say that? I don’t blame him, I don’t respect you either. He says you don’t like him and are always picking on him. I teach him to stick up for himself. I believe everything my child tells me and I believe you do hate him. I need the number of your school board.”

or

Teacher: “Johnny got into a fight today on the playground and I wanted you to know that I had to take him to the principal.”

Parent: “I have always taught him that if somebody hits him he had better hit him back. Where was the teacher when this happened? I will go to the school board if he gets into trouble because he was just defending himself.”

This happens all of the time…in public schools and in private schools. Just ask any educator. Some parents take their kid’s side over the schools’ (and they will admit that!) Parents want to shift responsibility for their kids’ misbehavior on someone else.

By Tman

January 28, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Fighting with a student should be grounds for out of school suspension. Fighting a teacher is grounds for expulsion. The schools need to take a stand on the NCLB act that holds them hostage to keep these criminals in school.

By Truth hurts

January 28, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

I have a great idea. First, let’s give one warning to the student. If the student doesn’t comply with the rules then the teacher can slug them in the mouth and knock out a few teeth. If that still doesn’t work then the parents should be beaten with a metal pole. If the liberals and ACLU get involved then they shall also get the beating of their lives. Criminal students have no place in society and mock it’s laws. I’m tired of the liberals telling everyone how to live their lives and peace at any price. It’s time to take the schools back and beat the hell out of the bad students.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Riiiight Mark,

Bet you don’t believe there’s any gang activity in schools either. Right?

By Anne

January 28, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

While some situations like this may have roots in physical or sexual abuse, the main reason is TOTAL LACK OF PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY…period, end of statement. How can any teacher ever be expected to discipline a student who’s parents think they do no wrong or if they’ve been caught, blame everything and everyone else for the problem.

By One

January 28, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Teachers, try to teach in a school where most (i.e. more than 50%) of the kids have a married mother and father at home, and you should be ok.

This has to be the single most STUPID statement I’ve read all year. Probably not for long, though, Dubya’s on tv tonight, and I’m sure he’ll be even more stupid!!!!!!

By HS Teacher Too

January 28, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Just Me — re your 3:19 post — did the teacher press any sort of charges or file any formal complaints against the school/administrators/system? I’m just asking because (although I’ve not been in that situation, thankfully) my husband and I have often talked of our “plan” should something ever happen.

Personally, I believe that I am not paid hazardouz duty pay, and when there is a fight I do not get physically involved. I call for help, or if I know the student(s) I might try to get their attention, but I do not risk physical injury for less than $50,000 a year and no recourse if I am hurt. As to the “part of the job” argument? My a#%$$!!

Laura, welcome! Thanks for a great topic today!

By Mark

January 28, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Jim D.

Perhaps there is gang actvity in some schools…but not most. Those of you who rely on sensationalist media coverage for your news get a VERY dire and mythical view of public schools.

By Prootwadl

January 28, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

I think schools should hold the parents directly accountable for the antisocial or harmful actions of their children in class, to the point of fines in some instances.

Repeat offenders should be removed from the public school system.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

I just love how quickly some are ALWAYS willing to point fingers at parents for the actions of their children when there truly are many reasons a child might misbehave. But then I guess that would be easier than trying to figure out why they are misbehaving by assessing what it is that you feel. (human nature I suppose.)

Attention

Most students gain attention through normal channels. However, for some students, misbehaving is the only way of gaining attention.

Most commonly, these students are the ones who speak out without permission, arrive late for class, or make strange noises which force class or teacher attention.

They are all misbehaving for the purpose of gaining attention.

Attention is the need which must be met. If they cannot get attention in appropriate ways, they will misbehave. Remember, giving attention reduces potential problems and cures current ones.

You can identify Attention as the cause for inappropriate behavior by the feeling the behavior generates within you. When Attention is the reason for the misbehavior, you will generally feel Annoyed.

Power

We all have the need for power. Students express this need by open dissent, by refusal to follow rules, or by being controversial.

Remember, these students usually feel defeated if they do as they are told. They truly feel that more power is the answer to all their problems. If they cannot gain power in appropriate ways, they will fight to gain it in inappropriate ways

You can identify Power as the cause for inappropriate behavior by the feelings the behavior generates within you. When Power is the reason for the misbehavior, you will generally feel Threatened.

Revenge

There are some students who find their places by being disliked, feared, or hated.

Failure has made them give up trying to gain attention or power via socially acceptable methods. Unfortunately, they find personal satisfaction in being mean, vicious, and violent. The purpose of their misbehavior is revenge.

They are also the students who write on desks, beat up classmates, threaten younger students, cause constant controversy, mark rest room walls, and damage others’ personal property. If you have students who fall into misbehaving because they are seeking revenge, realize that only appropriate success will change them.

You can identify Revenge as the cause of inappropriate behavior by the feeling the behavior generates within you. When Revenge is the cause of the misbehavior, you will generally feel fearful or Angry.

Self-Confidence

Students who lack self-confidence honestly expect failure. They frustrate teachers because they are often capable of handling their studies successfully. Again, only success can change these students’ academic self-image.

You can identify Lack of Self-Confidence as the cause of the inappropriate behavior by the feeling the behavior generates within you. When Lack of Self-Confidence is the cause of the misbehavior, you will generally feel Frustrated

By jim d

January 28, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

Mark,

I’ve spent my time within the school confines and can tell you without a doubt that you are SOOOOO WROOOONG. Gang activities thrive in even the best schools. Open your eyes.

By Filster

January 28, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

First off, barring an incident of self-defense or defense of others from imminent physical harm, I do not believe teachers should physically touch students. Granted there are horror stories out there about disrespect, etc., but two wrongs do not make a right. As for the cause, it’s simple. Watch kids shows, even Disney, and see how cutsie it is to be flippant to an adult. Watch supposedly kid-friendly or family movies and see examples of how to “cutely” sass adults. Listen to what passes for music these days, lyrics and videos. And top it all off with the fact that in some groups between one-half and three-quarters of all childrren are born out of wedlock. Kids learn by example, and we’ve allowed societ to disintegrate into a pretty poor example.

By jim d

January 28, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Prootwadl,

POPPYCOCK!!

Responsibility and control go together. For decades now, our laws and our educational system have consistently undermined parental authority. Yet new legal responsibilities for parents are being proposed after parental control has been eroded.

Preschoolers are taught that their parents have no right to spank them. All sorts of propaganda programs in the schools — from so-called “drug prevention” to “sex education” — stress that each individual makes his or her own decisions, independently of parental or societal values.

Most people have no idea how pervasive and unremitting are the efforts to drive a wedge between children and their parents and to replace parental influence with the influence of teachers, counselors and even the children’s similarly immature peers. Many of the books, movies, and other materials used in the public schools mock parents as old windbags who are behind the times. “Trust-building” exercises teach students to rely on their classmates.

By HS Teacher Too

January 28, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

hazardous sorry!

Jimd, while I agree with your assessments, I would suggest that the roots of many of THOSE problems still ultimately stem from something that happens at home. Or, if you don’t like that, something that happens outside of the school day/teachers’ ability to control, guide, shape, etc.

For example, let’s say that a student is disruptive and we assess the situation and realize that Little X is simply starving for attention. To stop there is only to identify the problem, not to solve it. I would ask why Little X is starving for attention, and try to simultaneously feed the attention in a positive way AND address the cause of Little X’s need for attention.

See what I am saying here? I don’t think your ideas are wrong. I just think they are only scratching the surface of the problem. And if the common denominator is that all of them have roots outside the teachers’ purvey, then who else can we point to but the home? (Or lack thereof.)

I’m not condemning all parents. It just seems to me to be obvious that what isn’t started at school is started outside of school, and the parents have the ultimate responsibility for those 18 hours.

By Jeff

January 28, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

The book I’m currently reading is set in AD 66 Jerusalem.

What does that have to do with today’s discussion?

The more I see into that era, the more I realize that the Romans truly were viscious SOBs - I would go so far as to say that most of the rulers may well have been true psycopaths. They were brutal, and they were public in their brutality.

And ya know what? They didn’t have these issues…

By jim d

January 28, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Right Jeff, They just had one big problem with a teachers!(think about it)

By HeyNow

January 28, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

from One: This has to be the single most STUPID statement I’ve read all year. Probably not for long, though, Dubya’s on tv tonight, and I’m sure he’ll be even more stupid!!!!!!

Good for you. Of course, not as good as providing some rebutting evidence to support your emotional little outburst. Put forth a little effort to discover the positive correlation between being raised by a single mother and

1) increased criminal activity 2) increased drug use 3) increased teenage pregnancy 4) increased dropout rates 5) increased likelyhood of being raised in poverty

It is a shame that advocating that kids be raised in a two-parent family is controversial, or even necessary.

By PurpleOne

January 28, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

@ HeyNow, let’s be politically correct, it is single parent because mothers aren’t the only single parents, there are fathers that have custody ya know and regardless, some two parent households are worse off than one parent households as far as discipline and respect goes so lets just say, those parents that aren’t being ‘good’ parents and not label them single or dual or married or whatever, create these type of offspring in this society. Let’s advocate GOOD parenting, period!

By a high school parent

January 28, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

My minimal experience as a parent is that many children/students are not held accountable for their actions. My guess is that this was not the first incident involving this young girl. Over the years, I have seen parents, with children as young as elementary school, make excuses for their children’s behavior, or worse yet, deny it. So-and-so said he did not do it, thus insinuating that the teacher or staff member or other adult was making it all up. Another classic response: he’s always in the wrong place at the wrong time; it wasn’t just him; he was there, but not involved; “they’re” labeling my child. It’s just never their fault.

You could pick out the kids who would get into trouble in the high school years. The pattern was clear by the end of elementary school or beginning of middle school. One kid started small acts of vandalism, then fire, followed by the act of breaking into a vacant house, and finally getting caught shop-lifting. Even then, no consequence b/c the store did not pursue the issue. (He lifted a bb gun.) Since the store did not purse the issue, neither did the parents. Sad.

By SET

January 28, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Just Me: Exactly what did the female teacher do while she was being felt up by the 15 yo male student in class? Stand there??

By Nikole

January 28, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Being raised in an abusive two-parent household is worse than being raised in a single parent household. Please don’t advocate that parents stay together, living in hell, for their children. It just does not work that way. There are millions of parents successfully raising decent children on their own.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 28, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

With over one million discipline referrals written in the state, according to the stats in the AJC, it should be pointed out that the AJC editors have never written an editoral advocating more administrative support for teachers in matters of discipline.

How many more teachers need to be physically assaulted before the AJC editors take a stand?

I’ve also noticed the Kathy Cox’s mouthpiece has nothing to say on the issue, given that the over one million referrals indicate an abysmal lack of leadership on her part when it comes to discipline.

And why do we have over one million referrals? One reason stands above all others: students know they can get away with it.

When teachers are given the authority and backup to impose consequences that let students know they can’t get away with it, then we’ll see a change. But that would require a spine, something that seems to be in short supply among politicians, educrats, and apparently, AJC editors.

By crawdaddy

January 28, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

Back in my day, the teachers would paddle you. I am not that old, 38, so this was not the distant past. I was against paddling at the time, but now I see that it was a good way to keep the kids in line. I know a lot of young teachers whose kids pay zero attention to anything they say. They try to find the few students that have some interest and concentrate on them. The problem is not the teachers or the schools, it is the parents and students. I had a part time job a few years back rating sixth grade students state assessment essays. It was quite disturbing. One third of the children could not even speak English, another third did not care about learning, and the remainder were the children were learning at a normal level. This does not bode well for our society. We need to get back to some sort of vocational training system for the kids who are not doing well in normal school. Test all of the children and determine what school is applicable for each child. This is how they do it in most countries. Most will never be able to graduate college and should be trained to have some sort of skill in order to survive. I know this will never happen because people will complain that they are being excluded. However, We have to do something different because our society depends on it. We are punishing the achievers by placing them with children who are going nowhere.

By Deb

January 28, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

There is absolutely no excuse for a student attacking a teacher. The teachers job is to TEACH, they should not have to take a martial arts class to be able to protect themselves or others in a learning environment. The problem is the parents, my SINGLE mother would have never considered this acceptable behavior anywhere, especially not at school. The student should be expelled, no questions asked! Zero tolerance! To often people are blaming the media, the schools etc. Discipline and respect start at home…At this point, it is the parents problem to find a school for their out of control child! The teacher should press charges. For every action there is a consequence…maybe the child will be required to attend anger mgnt courses!

By Deb

January 28, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

There is absolutely no excuse for a student attacking a teacher. The teachers job is to TEACH, they should not have to take a martial arts class to be able to protect themselves or others in a learning environment. The problem is the parents, my SINGLE mother would have never considered this acceptable behavior anywhere, especially not at school. The student should be expelled, no questions asked! Zero tolerance! To often people are blaming the media, the schools etc. Discipline and respect start at home…At this point, it is the parents problem to find a school for their out of control child! The teacher should press charges. For every action there is a consequence…maybe the child will be required to attend anger mgnt courses!

By Lisa B.

January 28, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

If students are expelled due to violent behavior, don’t they count against the drop-out rate for the school, which then impacts the school’s ability to make AYP?

By Lisa B.

January 28, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this

In my school system, we still use corporal punishment. I can’t really tell it helps. Sending students to Alternative School doesn’t help either. They just get suspended all the time and/or fail the CRCT, all of which impacts my school. If we’re accountable for the students anyway, it makes more sense to keep them in our school rather than send them off or send them home. It doesn’t matter if students are dangerous, mentally ill, mentally impaired, abused, etc. The schools are accoutable for their test scores and their attendance.

By Jennifer

January 28, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this

The real question is this…if this Lilburn student is sent to the county alternative school for 6 months or a year, what services will she and her family receive to intervene…before they send her back to Lilburn a year or six months from now ? Or is the alternative school just a holding facility only to return kids to public school after a separation and no real behavioral or academic interventions…. Also..just how long did the school and the parent allow the girl and that teacher to remain in the same classroom together, allowing the anger to fester ?….especially since they reported on her past actions of threatening a teacher ?

By catlady

January 28, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

I have never been attacked except by an angry 5 year old trying to bite, kick and hit me, and by a special ed kid spitting and trying to kick and bite. I defended myself by subduing the child until the fight was out of them.

I have quite frequently seen parents physically attacked by their children. It makes me sick.

If I were attacked at school, I would notify the office AFTER I called the police on the cell phone. And you had better believe I would press charges, and go after the school in civil court if they did not support me. My son was assaulted at school and that is what I should have done. I would tell any of my students’ parents to do the same. (true story: a few years ago our principal convinced a cop NOT to press charges because the boy stabbing the kid SIX TIMES was an “accident”. The parents were not aware that THEY could force the issue. Jack the Ripper has been in alternative school and jv since 6th grade, by the way.)

NONE OF US get paid to be assaulted. No matter why. Period.

And I sincerely believe that if systems said “shove it ” to their fear of NCLB or whoever and held absolute control (no excuses) on these behavior issues, we would see a fairly quick drop in the number. Let’s face it: the parents want the kids at school and out of their hair, and many of the kids want to be at school (for attention, food, etc). And with the better behavior due to no excuses enforcement, we would see better achievement. Let’s take away the lie that “he MADE me hit him” and teach children that at school you must admit that you CHOSE to do it. Let us also take away the lie that schools HAVE to sacrifice the appropriate needs of 600 for the 60 bad apples hell-bent on being “bad”. Take away the props for that.

We keep positively reinforcing these undesirable behaviors. We say NCLB “makes” us do it but we could say the h3ll with worrying about Dangerous School designation and get this problem firmly in hand. Be on the list for a few years but get the reputation that in our school that behavior will NO EVER be tolerated. Then things would improve all around.

Teachers who take sexual advantage of students should be put UNDEr the jail. However, students who falsely charge by lying should also pay the strongest penalty, and be subject to lawsuit. I have known 3 teachers wrongly accused and the students should have been expelled. All 3 were angry at the teachers for calling them on their behavior, and they loved the attention they got until their lies were exposed.

By mary d

January 28, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

Students that are suspended and must go to the country alternative school are still counted and tested like all the other students.

Before anyone begins slamming the alternative schools for doing nothing, she needs to find out what is actually going on in these places. From my experience, the Gwinnett alternative schools are doing transformative things for these kids. Don’t assume that professionals do not care enough to do their very best for OUR children.

By Lee

January 28, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

Here’s the bottom line:

The responsibility to establish and maintain standards governing behavior during school hours is the sole province of…. SCHOOLS.

Likewise, the responsibility to ensure that students comply with said standards is also the sole province of… SCHOOLS.

You can blame the parents. You can blame politicians. You can blame the educrats. Hell, you can blame President Bush and NCLB if you wish. It still doesn’t alleviate the fact that schools in general have abdicated their responsibilty to provide a safe environment conducive to the learning process.

I would also argue that perpetuate bad behavior by not dealing with the problem in the early grades. Kids are very perceptive. They know how to push the limits. If the school does not establish or enforce the limits, then what does the student think the limit is?

Absolutely nothing… and he/she is right.

BTW, good luck Catlady getting the police to do anything unless administration calls them in.

By Rita

January 28, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

I am surprised that the attack even made the news. I am sure Gwinnett County did not alert the media. I think people would be surprised to learn how many similar incidents (perhaps not as severe) occur every year in our schools. Teachers are “asked” not to report these incidents to anyone other than school administration, who usually put the blame on the teacher. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the student in question has had other problems, probably at other schools. Many students with severe emotional or behavior problems are just shuffled between schools and the administration just hopes they are moved again before an incident occurs. Unfortunately for the Lilburn middle teacher this was not the case. At least someone notified the media so that this incident will not be swept under the carpet.

By luvs2teach

January 28, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Actually Lee, I blame us - not just schools, but society as a whole. We are all to blame for many of the reasons listed above: parents wanting to be their kids’ friends, sue-happy folks tying school boards hands, PC and self-esteem at all costs flying in the face of common sense and decency - I could go on…

We have all abdicated standards of common decency in some strange pursuit of a false happiness that hasn’t made us all that happy.

Remember “don’t trust anyone over thirty” - well, now that we’re over thirty, who are we supposed to trust? And do we really expect those under 30 to trust US?

It’s like our whole nation went through its adolescence and now our kids are picking up the messy pieces.

Schools are just a microcosm of society - if you blame the schools, you may as well blame society - after all, the main problem with public schools is the public, lol.

Welcome Laura!

By HS Teacher

January 28, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

Putting a child out of school is not helping the situation. The girl needs schooling.

As a HS teacher, I have been assaulted twice in 30 years. Both times, I pressed charges and the student went to jail because they were over 17. They did receive education services in jail too.

I often see 3-4 year olds at Wal-Mart kicking, biting, and hitting Mommy because she will not buy that candy or toy. Sometimes, I speak to the parent and say, “If your child acts like that in my classroom, I will have them arrested”. You can not start at age 3-4 years old to train your child. It begins at home. My father often said a child acts at school like they do at home. Even now, 40 years after he said that, I find it still true.

By Lee

January 29, 2008 6:18 AM | Link to this

Luvs, I know what you’re saying, but at some level, you’ve got to assign accountability. To blame society is akin to saying “everybody is at fault, therefore, no one is responsible.”

How many times have you read on this blog where teachers send a student to the office and nothing was done? That happens often enough and before long, the teachers simply quit sending the troublemakers to the office. Five years later, you have a student or teacher attacked because the behavior was not dealt with in the early years.

By John B

January 29, 2008 6:30 AM | Link to this

bold: It’s taching kids that they are owed handouts for doing what they should be doing, or for the future for doing nothing….a “pre-welfare” experience

By WFC

January 29, 2008 6:49 AM | Link to this

Bull whip the student. She will understand that.

By BD

January 29, 2008 7:02 AM | Link to this

Why do we have violence in our schools? Because our students do not know right from wrong.

Luckily, I seldom see any real violence on my end of the building. But what I see every day is the cusp of violence - the rudeness, the disrespect, the “somebody done me wrong and gonna pay” attitude that shines though many of my students.

Jim D can disagree with me, but it comes from the home and the parents. One of the roles of parent is to build character, and much of the above mentioned problems are issues of character. Jim D mentioned in a long post a whole list of reasons kids might act out - but at the heart of all of those reasons, the role the parents play is greatest common denominator.

I learned my lesson about violence in schools when I broke up a fight between two girls about seven years ago…after the fight was over and my adrenaline quit rushing, I was doubled over with back pain. I still have issues with my back. From now on, I will stand back and say “stop.”

By Allison

January 29, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this

Schools want to brush incidents under the rug because they dont want to be labeled a dangerous school. I have been teaching 11th and 12th grade for 25 years and I have never been threatened. However, I have a 25 year hard-nosed reputation and the students know it. When a student makes any kind of physical threat, they need to be dealt with harshly. If the school wont handle it, the teacher should press charges. I know that If I got hit, I would press chargess. 95% of our students are great kids. We cant allow a few bad students to create an environment where people feel threatened.

By Allison

January 29, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this

Schools want to brush incidents under the rug because they dont want to be labeled a dangerous school. I have been teaching 11th and 12th grade for 25 years and I have never been threatened. However, I have a 25 year hard-nosed reputation and the students know it. When a student makes any kind of physical threat, they need to be dealt with harshly. If the school wont handle it, the teacher should press charges. I know that If I got hit, I would press chargess. 95% of our students are great kids. We cant allow a few bad students to create an environment where people feel threatened.

By jim d

January 29, 2008 7:56 AM | Link to this

Why “blame the parents”!!

Part of it is ignorance, plain and simple. Most parent-bashers have no idea of the forces shaping children’s development and behavior and harbor the archaic “blank slate” belief: all that we become is due to effects of the environment, which has written on the blank slate with which we are born. If a child has any behavioral and/or developmental challenges, it must come from bad parenting.

These are the folks who often are parents and - by dint of luck and perhaps some skill - have not experienced any significant problems with their impeccably behaved, successful kids. Of course, they attribute 100% of this success to their marvelous parenting skills (nurture) and 0% to a lucky throw of the genetic dice (nature). They judgmentally opine: if only all parents were as good as me, all kids would do as well as mine.

These are the folks who contended that using meds in kids is a travesty, that the parents who use such medications (like Ritalin) with their kids are those who just don’t know how to parent, who can’t tolerate any misbehavior in their lives and who, in their lazy selfishness, want to chemically restrain a normally unruly child. (By the way, I’ve never met such a parent).

These are the folks who tsk tsk tsk the beleaguered mom whose child is having a temper tantrum in the supermarket and reproach loudly, “Why can’t you control your child?”

These are the folks who are, in short, self-righteous twits.

As my wise grandmother used to say, “It’s easy to beat on someone else’s behind.”

By jim d

January 29, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

Oh, and you folks that spend your days in schools should check your stats.

The ones I’ve been given for the school my child attends indicate that over 95% of the problems are caused by less than 5% of the students. Strangely (or not) that seems to be pretty close to the percentage of students with rather severe learning disabillities. (can we blame parents for that too?)

By Margaret

January 29, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

7th grade is a time of discovering how to act in groups and find your way around in society - along with raging hormones and more challenging classes. If a teacher’s temperament is not oriented to handling students like this then he/she should get out of the classroom. Too many adults revert to some of the same bullying or mean girl behavior that students this age display - and that is a recipe for disaster. I would guess that the injured teacher was causing intentional humiliation to the agressive girl in front of her peers- and that is a misuse of power in any setting. I have fought at my childs school against a teacher who couldn’t handle 6th grade boys. No child is perfect. Don’t glorify every teacher as an idealized Mr Chips - they aren’t perfect and many of them are, sadly, flawed and just looking out for a long summer vacation. Don’t try to flame me for this - it IS a fact and something that the schools need to guard against. Unless I know all the facts both the child and the teacher are victims.

By Margaret

January 29, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

7th grade is a time of discovering how to act in groups and find your way around in society - along with raging hormones and more challenging classes. If a teacher’s temperament is not oriented to handling students like this then he/she should get out of the classroom. Too many adults revert to some of the same bullying or mean girl behavior that students this age display - and that is a recipe for disaster. I would guess that the injured teacher was causing intentional humiliation to the agressive girl in front of her peers- and that is a misuse of power in any setting. I have fought at my childs school against a teacher who couldn’t handle 6th grade boys. No child is perfect. Don’t glorify every teacher as an idealized Mr Chips - they aren’t perfect and many of them are, sadly, flawed and just looking out for a long summer vacation. Don’t try to flame me for this - it IS a fact and something that the schools need to guard against. Unless I know all the facts both the child and the teacher are victims.

By dorrie

January 29, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

As for the poster who thinks teachers should physically be able to subdue a student - think again. We would be arrested for asault by the parent. Believe me - blame the parents. They teach the students to react with aggression over the slightest perceived slight.

By Kids are Terrible Now

January 29, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Kids these days are raised by Nintendo and whatever is on TV. “Parents” leave it up to teachers to do the parent’s job. Parents have no accountability anymore. They should need a permit to procreate. There’s too much pressure on teachers to raise everyone’s kids now. And because of the ACLU and political correctness, if a teacher says “the wrong thing” or touches a student; they’re going to jail. Kids should be sent to boot camp starting at 8 years old to learn discipline and respect. One study reported that on average, an inner city school teacher spends up to 75% of their time getting their students to calm down…that’s 45 minutes of an hour long class. What are they going to learn in 15 minutes?!?! These millenials have been spoonfed everything and continue to expect it long into adulthood. Cut the apron strings and make these kids grow up. I for one am terribly worried about my future being run by these brats.

By jim d

January 29, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

A final thought on this subject.

Yes, I disagree that it can be blown off as simply bad parenting.

I’ve been blessed with a pretty good kid but let’s be fair, teachers are no strangers to parent-bashing. My guess is that many teachers never took a course in developmental psychology in their lives (even worse, they don’t think they need one). They become teachers and - poof! - they are considered experts in child development, which they most assuredly are not.

Rather, they are subject to the same “blank slate” prejudice as everyone else, so they don’t recognize the child’s contribution (such as a difficult temperament) to the problem. They often unsympathetically blame the parents for everything. They over-generalize from their own limited personal family experiences (good or bad) and may be insensitive to problems they never experienced. And they overrate what did and did not work with their own kids.

All of this is magnified during teacher training by being taught how magically effective (1-2-3 magic!) measures like time-out are (dream on). So, if a child continues to misbehave despite the wonderful advice they have given the parents, it must be that the parents are not doing their job. Rotten kid = rotten parent. Bash, bash, bash.

End of discussion. (well for me anyway, since my thoughts will change few opinons) Hopefully I’ve given you something to think about though.

By WFC

January 29, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

Margaret… I’m grateful that before my retirement I never had the misfortune to have taught your child. Of course a teacher should not humiliate a child. But NOTHING justifies a beat-down. If you don’t understand that… I suggest that YOU teach the child. My son managed to get through school without such incidents. I wonder why? He knew that he would have to answer to his 6’-4”, 260 lb. football coach dad when he got home. Let me guess as to this girl’s home environment… not too difficult to figure out.

By Mark

January 29, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Jim, the people who blame the parents for their kids’ misbehavior are not off track. True, there are children with profound medical or mental challenges that interfere with their ability to behave. However, for many kids, the idea of behaving in a public setting simply is not reinforced at home.

I have several kids of my own, have been in education for 30 years and hold masters degrees in child psychology, counseling, teaching and leadership. With all of that acquired knowledge and experience I can tell you the number one reason for misbehavior is lack of parent support.

Yes, children misbehave for attention, power, revenge,etc….but for many students, they know they had better not misbehave for any of those reasons or they will get into more trouble at home. They elect to hold those feelings in rather than act upon them for fear of getting into greater trouble.

I thought of this blog this morning. Yesterday a student at our school called his teacher a name. The teacher called the parent to discuss it. Today the child walked up to the teacher and said, “See, I told you I wouldn’t get in trouble if you called her.”

And, Jim, I can 100% guarantee you we have no gang a