By decaturparent

January 22, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

I’m speechless. This is wrong on so many levels. It is unfair to kids who work hard to begin with and get the job done in regular school hours. It is unfair to their taxpaying parents. It is also sending the way, way wrong message to kids.

By V for Vendetta

January 22, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Wow, this is completely realistic! Just think:

Obviously this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in my entire life. It seriously makes me want to puke (kind of like not giving kids zeros, but that’s another blog topic for another day …)

I hate to be spewing such vitriolic statements and displaying such emotion, but ideas like this make me seriously reconsider this entire profession. Whoever came up with this idea should be beaten about the head with one of those stupid bikes and MP3 players they’re giving away. AARRGGGGG. This really ticks me off!

By catlady

January 22, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

You can pay them to show up, but you can’t make them learn! Or let others learn! This is going waayy down the wrong track (as are the MP3 bribes). I don’t think you “learn the intrinsic reward” of volunteering if you get paid—this amounts to the same thing. Pretty shameful. Next the ante will be upped to a car!

By catlady

January 22, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Charles Loudermilk— a fool and his money

By catlady

January 22, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

Here is a novel idea: instead of rewarding (previously) bad behavior, let’s enforce school attendance and behavior laws. In the long run, it will be a lot cheaper, and I don’t just mean in money!

By catlady

January 22, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I hope parents of Fulton Co Schools are all over this. It is fine for Mr. Loudermilk to give away his money anyway he wants to. It is NOT fine for the county schools to participate in something that has huge negative consequences in the long run! What if he was offering to pay kids to do something (not illegal, not immoral) but not in their best interest—does the school system have to be a vehicle in this? If I were a Fulton Co parent I would be raising h3ll! Actually, I think I will anyway. Move over, V!

By Roberts

January 22, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Charles Loudermilk must be feeling a tad bit guilty as in wanting to “give back” to the community that he takes advantage of with his rip off rental deals and sky high interest rates.

By Matt

January 22, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

This would be funny if it wasn’t true. Now, it is just sad. The kids who don’t need the program are going to be the real winners anyway. They will go to college with at least a small idea of how the world works… work hard and reap benefits. Actually, come to think of it the kids in the program are getting the honest lesson about our world. Money is the only way. Isn’t that a great lesson to teach the kids, Fulton Cty. and Mr. Loudermilk? Kudos to you both.
IDIOTS. BTW- I am a teacher. I am not a bureaucrat who has no real idea of what is happening in a classroom or a wealthy man who aimlessly write checks without addressing the real issues.

By JustMe

January 22, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

OMG! I cannot say anything more than what has already been said. This is where administrators really go off of the deep end.

Is there no one in the school system offices with common sense? They should hire another level of administration called “Sanity Check.” This person’s job would be to quickly squash stupid ideas like this one!

By HS Teacher Too

January 22, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

Let’s say that the program is a success and Fulton wants to expand it, but Mr. Loudermilk bows out. Then what? Now who pays? Taxpayers, who are already paying for the compulsory education?

By strange idea

January 22, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Sounds a little nutso to me, but don’t parents sometimes pay their kids to do household chores? This world is a lot different than it used to be and perhaps different things motivate kids now. Non-educators are always trying to improve education but does it ever get better?

By jim d

January 22, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————With tears of laughter I must say horse chit

By barf

January 22, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

This sends a wonderful message to the kids who are doing their work and studying - hey, the slackers get paid $8 an hour to do what you’ve done for nothing. What a way to discourage the kids who are doing the right thing.

By JustMe

January 22, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

IMHO, the problem with education in recent years is that non-teachers are mucking with it. Politicans think they know best. Business people think they know best. Administrators think they know best.

Why not ask a classroom teacher?

By JustMe

January 22, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Prediction: most students that come to this tutorial-for-pay will sit there and listen to ipods, chat with friends, text message, or anything else except school work. Then, they will collect their ‘paycheck’ and be off.

Mission accomplished?

By MrHughes

January 22, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

As someone who’s spent time in a classroom teaching I don’t see that much wrong with this. If it gets the kids to learn, then what’s the harm. You are getting kids to “attend free after-school tutoring in math and science”. Georgia is 49th in education people!! We are drastically behind in terms of math and science!! It’s not like what we have been doing has been working all that well. I like the fact that they are thinking outside the box. It’s just a test study to see if this a realistic way to raise test scores. You need to use incentives to motivate. This is no different than giving $20 per A or promising junior a new car if he scores high on their SAT’s. People are motivated in different ways. Btw, did any of ya’ll ever think that many kids did not devote time to their studies because they needed to have part time jobs in order to help their families make ends meet or pay for the things they like to do? This will benefit them more than working for minimum wage at McD or Pizza Hut. If this helps the children learn and learn to value their education, then I am all for it.

By yesiamworried

January 22, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Loudermilk’s money would be beter spent on birth control for uneducated parents. This alone would solve most of the ills of the public education system.

By JustMe

January 22, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, Mr. Loudermilk will of course get the PR pics leaning over some kid with an open book, looking all pleased…… yet the results will be nothing. And, of course, the ajc will run some article touting the greatness of Mr. Loudermilk and how wonderful this all is……. without writing the actual results.

By jim d

January 22, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

JM,

“Frankly —I don’t think teachers would pay their students for comming to class.” He says with still even more tears of laughter.

By jim d

January 22, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Might as well just buy them each an ounce of crack—that’s what it will be spent on anyway.

By jim d

January 22, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

I was laughing so hard at the end of the article that I failed to notice. Will the teachers tutoring these classes be elgible for hazardous duty pay?

By wwww

January 22, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

MrHughes: Please check your facts. Georgia is 49th in SAT SCORES. In Georgia a large percentage students, whether college bound or not, feel compelled to take the SAT. Therefore, our overall average score will be lower than say Mississippi or North Dakota where a very small percentage of INTELLIGENT, MOTIVATED, COLLEGE BOUND juniors and seniors take the test. Obviously, those scores are going to be higher. The statistics used to rank states have absolutely no validity whatsoever, but that doesn’t stop every politician from quoting this erroneous information.
In fact, there currently is not a statistically valid way to rank state education systems because there is no national curriculum with standardized testing.

Topic at hand: I am with V and catlady. This is about the stupidest thing I’ve heard in awhile.
Questions: 1. Who will make sure these kids are on task and “learning” during this after school program? Certified teachers? Volunteers? Charles Loudermilk? (I would pay to see that one). 2. What will be used to judge whether these students were remediated adequately?
3. How were these students chosen? 4. Is Loudermilk going to reward the students who did it right the first time by paying them for hard work?

Plain and simple, some kids do not give a d*mn about school. NCLB, in all its beauracratic glory, refuses to acknowlege this issue. I guess this is the latest solution to this “problem”?

By HB

January 22, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

“This is no different than giving $20 per A or promising junior a new car if he scores high on their SAT’s.”

Absolutely correct — those things are terrible too! Unbelievable!

By lopro

January 22, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Ditto

By decaturparent

January 22, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

HB, I agree that it’s not a good idea to give money/stuff for good grades. However there is a difference between that and Loudermilk’s ridiculous proposal.

In the real world, a lot of employees (particularly in sales) get extra money for extra performance. Back in the dot.com heyday - my husband would also get some fantastic club trip (to Singapore, Ireland, Japan etc. if he sold a bunch of software). Therefore, even though I don’t agree with it… rewarding A’s with material goods is at least remotely in line with some folks’ reality when they get into the working world.

However, this *%$!!!@# program is paying folks for failure. If you do badly enough that you need this program you get paid. If you are smart and/or bust your butt to get good grades to begin with - you get nothing.

I don’t know of any employer who pays employees more if they do poorly.

BTW, I do take my kids out for a smoothie/ice cream/hot chocolate, etc. if they get straight As… Does that make me a bad parent? HB is giving me a complex!

By catlady

January 22, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Now, here is a proposal for you: * pay the kids the $8. Then, they must sign the check over IMMEDIATELY to the teacher/school system representative who has provided their opportuntity to catch up.* See, in the real world it works that way. You have to pay, through time, effort, and money, for services rendered. Let’s reinforce the lesson we want learned for the long term, not just the short term.

Then, evaluate how many young people “learned” the value of their opportunity and stuck with it. I think it would be quite a wakeup call for students and “philanthropists” alike!

As I said before, the person at Fulton Co Schools who okayed this needs to be taken to the woodshed. Fulton County taxpayers need to get on the phone (after all, they will be subsidizing this effort).

As a teacher, give me students who are eager to LEARN.

By catlady

January 22, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

What happened to personal pride, responsibility, and self-control? What happened to parents holding their children accountable? What happened to brains?

The after school tutoring is available free to all, so why should these students be bribed into showing (pretending to show) initiative?

BTW, I also don’t believe in paying your children for their regular chores. No one pays you to cook supper, etc. Every member of the family, from toddler up, should have a part in making the family run smoothly WITHOUT PAY. Of course, I also think children should be assisted in finding ways to volunteer in their neighborhood—for no pay— assisting elderly neighbors with yardwork, etc. It is about more than me, me, me, and I can tell you it would help many kids academically if their parents expected such.

By jim d

January 22, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Hey cat,

speaking of whatever happened.

What ever happened to a FREE and appropriate education? It ain’t free if you are being paid.

By jim d

January 22, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

Hey cat,

speaking of whatever happened.

What ever happened to a FREE and appropriate education? It ain’t free if you are being paid.

By Janine

January 22, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

A slipperyslopeslidingdownthedrain!!!

So…..Let’s see, the objective is …To “test the hypothesis that extrinsic motivation (pay for attendance and participation) will improve academic performance….”

My guess is that these 8th graders and even moreso the 11th graders are not prepared to succeed. It has been my experience that even with tutoring, these students are already so lacking in background for upper level studies that it is going to take more than $$$$$ and an hour or two after school catch them up.

By catlady

January 22, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this

jim d—“Free” education is very expensive. And don’t get me started on FAPE! The only ones that generally enjoy that are diagnosed SP ED kids. I’d like to see that “protection” extended to the gifted and regular kids.

“Extrinsic motivation” can and should be supplied by the parents; ie, “No, you are not going out tonight. You are going to stay here and study until you succeed in your classes.” Or even: “Boy, I’m gonna whup you if you bring home any more grades like these.” Or, “You failed the class. You can work all summer to pay for night school to make it up.”

I suggest bloggers look at the comments attached to the original article—some are very eye-opening. Funny how the race card came out so quickly.

Janine—you are right. And yet, we keep sending them on to the middle and high school unable to read on 5th grade level. And when they are in elementary school, when it could make a difference, the it would be great if we could get DFACS and Juvenile Court involved in “motivating” their parents to guide and direct their children. Some of the kids failing could be saved if intensive, authoritative work was done with their parents. Parent accountability would have twice the impact on student achievement, if we had the chutzpah to do what needs to be done.

Mr. Loudermilk can do whatever he wants with his money—spend or waste. It is inappropriate for the county schools to permit him to do it on their campuses with their teachers and their blessings. (I assume he is not building his own buildings and hiring his own teachers for the tutoring sessions.) Someone needs to think this thing through and look at the big picture.

Of course, the suspicious side of me says this is a set-up: “See, we did all this for those people and they still wouldn’t man up. It just goes to show…”

By HB

January 22, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this

decaturparent, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating those good grades with a special little treat. I always knew kids in school who got $5 per A, $3 per B and it seemed odd to me even then. I was taught to pay attention in class, do my homework every night, and study for tests — period. Didn’t really dawn on me to do otherwise. On the very rare occasion that I earned a low grade on a test, my mom never punished me, because she knew I was trying my best, so obviously, I just wasn’t understanding the content. Rather, she sat down and worked with me until I got it, and then we moved on. Good grades earned me a pat on the back or maybe for a full semester report card a weeknight pizza dinner out — a treat we both enjoyed that was usually reserved for the weekend. I do admit, though, that I usually did get $1 from my granddaddy for a good report card, but I think my cousins and I all understood that wasn’t a hard-earned reward — just an excuse for him to spoil us a little as grandparents tend to do :). Straight C’s likely would have gotten us that same $1.

As for paying for chores, catlady, what do you think about allowances? I was always given one, and learned how to save and manage a little money, but I was expected to do regular chores to receive it. Not doing the chores, though, would result in more punishment than just having my allowance docked (no $ plus no phone privileges or something along those lines) as they were meant to be my responsibility, not just something I had the option to do to earn money. Would you consider that the same as paying for regular chores? Just curious…

By Steve

January 22, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

I would LOVE to know how many people on this board who complain about this program reward their own brats for good grades? Do you give them money for straight A’s? Do you take them out for “ice cream” fun? Do you lessen their chores for the week? Do you treat them special for good grades? If you answer “yes” to any of these questions you have no right to complain about this program!!!!!

By Lee

January 22, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

Dateline 2009: This just in, in an ironic twist of fate, Fulton County Schools hired CPA Lee to tutor some of the students in Math. He quickly taught them about compound interest, discount rates, and how 0% interest really is not. In other news, Aaron Rents filed for bankruptcy, citing an unexplained downturn in the ‘pay by the week’ programs.

I don’t know. Part of me is leaning toward “anything is worth a shot”, and part is leaning toward “it’s throwing money down the drain, but it’s Loudermilk’s money”.

That said, I’m one of those parents who gave my kids a monetary award for earning A’s. There are many companies who give employees monetary awards for excellent job performance. I view it as a simple way to say “Thanks for a job well done.”

To each his own, I guess…

By Sam

January 22, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this

This issue warrants more than just blogging. Everyone — and I do mean everyone — who cares about the moral and social development of any child anywhere should protest to the parties behind “Learn & Earn” to nib this thing.

Following are names and contact information. Now protest! I have already protested with Fulton County Commissioner Rob Pitts.

Rob Pitts Fulton County Commissioner District 2 (At Large) 404-612-8210 robb.pitts@co.fulton.ga.us

James Wilson, Superintendent Fulton County Public Schools (404) 768-3600 wilsonj1@fultonschools.org

Charles Loudermilk, Chairman and CEO Aaron Rents (678) 402-3334 Charlie.Loudermilk@aaronrents.com

Michael Robinson, Principal Creekside High School (770) 306-4300 x122 or x124 robinsonmh@fultonschools.org

Darron Franklin, Principal Bear Creek Middle School (770) 969-6080 franklind@fultonschools.org

By Medawg

January 22, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

There is nothing wrong with rewarding your kids for good grades, especially if it helps to motivate them. However, the problem with this plan is that its rewarding only the kids that were doing poorly, and then without being tied to increased performance. At least rewarding your kids for good grades is tied to performance somehow. This may be one of the DUMBEST things I have heard of in a long time. I just don’t understand what this is hoping to accomplish. Giving mediocre students more spending money?

By Sam

January 22, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Long-standing and currently prevailing research can help us understand there is much wrong with rewarding kids for good grades, etc. no matter socioeconomic status. Check out these…

For Best Result, Forget the Bonus

The Folly of Merit Pay

By Tony

January 22, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this

If this is a legitimate “study”, which Institutional Review Board gave approval? This does not sound like the kind of study that should get approval. Is there a control group? Was there a randomly selected group of students who get nothing in return for going to class? Perhaps the control group should be the students who make A’s and B’s without having to be bribed.

Sam is absolutely correct in asking everyone to express their grave concern over this “study” by writing to the leadership involved.

By decaturparent

January 22, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, I always thought of a trip out for ice cream to be along the same lines as going out to dinner with my husband to celebrate one of us getting a promotion or a big bonus or sth. I never really looked at it as a bribe.. just a celebration of success.

I guess it’s because a scoop of ice cream isn’t such a big deal to my kids that they would really change their behavior to get it. We go out for ice cream for no reason at all sometimes.

Or maybe it is that big of a deal. Now I am in a quandry.

Now, giving cash for grades feels a lot like a bribe. So does buying a car or clothes or sth. However, a little ice cream or a hot chocolate and some conversation time doesn’t seem so bad.

By LM

January 22, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this

Wow…has Mr. Loudermilk met any of the kids he is going to be paying $8/hour? What a waste of money.

If the kids don’t get it during the day, they probably won’t get it after school - if they stay. I saw TONS of kids staying for after school programs at a middle school at which I used to work, and those kids wasted the time of the adults as much as their own time. Kids who are not willing to work/learn at school are just that - unwilling. Give them $8 an hour, and watch it just disappear.

By autoteacherman

January 22, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

I the real world of work people learn what they must and what they want to learn. Why would I want to learn something just to pass a test you say is important? If I do feel it is important I will use my memory to memorize the facts and give them back to you as requested. If you think that is learning then you are the fool. We only learn what we care for; example “bike riding” “swimming” etc. These learned are not forgotten. I tell my students there is no difference between ” I don’t know and I forgot” We must teach “Learning, not for the Test!”

By Steve

January 23, 2008 5:47 AM | Link to this

I don’t know what to think about this. I drive past a low performing high school that is in a low socioeconomic area. In the packed parking lot I see many new cars including Escalades and Lexus. So, how do schools get the students to value an education? I know a student teacher that got a content degree to teach and learned that it is not about content but about babysitting. Kids caught during tests texting answers to each other in a gifted class and parental response floored me - “my child has a right to carry a cell phone despite your rules” and “it is just kids being kids” and then getting upset when their child earns a zero grade for cheating - almost costing the principal their job. Kids failing and then getting placed in the next grade - but do you really want a 16 year old boy in class with your 12 year old daughter? I really do not know what to think and by reading the blogs there are a lot of great comments. I am looking for answers and do not see them. How do you fix this realistically? So many passing fads get dumped on education and no real fixes. I am becoming seriously apathetic. I do see one person trying to fix in their own way and I applaud that. How do teachers get a child to value something when parents reward kids with ipods, cell phones and an Escalade just for “coming of age?” Any realistic suggestions? One caveat - a student cannot learn if they are not in the chair. With your solution - remember that this is all about politics and special interest. Ask King Roy or Sonny.

By Katie

January 23, 2008 5:48 AM | Link to this

What a stupid idea Here’s a thought, if you don’t work hard in school, McDonald’s is waiting for your employment application.

By ron

January 23, 2008 7:37 AM | Link to this

By mom3boys

January 23, 2008 7:53 AM | Link to this

Hey, I know…if they won’t learn according to the standards, let’s lower the bar and make it easier for the poor babies….wait, we’re already doing that. ARGHHH!!!! THE INMATES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM!

By WFC

January 23, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

We live in a different world in 2008 but human beings haven’t changed much in 5000 years. Retired history teacher here.

I have no problem with paying students for academic PERFORMANCE. I have many problems with paying students to SHOW UP. Why are schools supposed to be different from other human endeavors? In the real world, you get what you pay for. Why not in schools? We try to con lower class kids with the “promise” that education is the key. However, we will pay them $8 an hour to flip burgers but nothing to put in the effort to make an “A” in calculus or physics. These students may be poor but most are not retards (or PC, “mentally challenged.”)

The notion that “you’ll have a better life down the road” is cold comfort to a kid whose life is rotten right now. The advocates of “deferred gratification” are usually people who “live well now.”

Alfie Kohn is a socialist. We know how well that idea worked out.

Pay all students for performance. If the system won’t, I will with my own son. Mother Theresa’s are few and far between.

By the way, the quality of teaching would really go to h*ll if school systems could only hire SINGLE people. Many great teachers persevere only because their spouses make the money.

By MOM

January 23, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

I pay $50 an hour for tutoring for my daughter once a week. I also review her homework and help her prepare for tests. The money needs to be spent on getting these parents to actually be parents. The problem is at home.

By Julie

January 23, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

Silliest thing I ever heard of! People of all ages should learn to take personal responsibility without being paid. Just one more messed up aspect of our current society where members already have an inflated sense of entitlement.

By Jason

January 23, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Isn’t this just preparing kids for the real world? Almost all of us in the workforce w******* ourselves out to the highest bidding employer. We aren’t interested in learning unless it directly correlates to higher earning power. That being said, how can we so hypocritically expect kids—who look to us for direction—to think any differently?

By SouthFultonMom

January 23, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

MOM I’m with you. I also pay for my daughter to have tutoring twice a week, even though her school failed to make AYP due to special needs kids test scores, I don’t qualify for the free tutoring provided by the school.

Parents need to parent! Stop expecting everything to come from the school system.

I am a teacher and many of my students have a welfare mentality already in place. This just continues the train of thought that they’re owed something.

Why can’t my child be paid for making A’s and B’s. She works her butt off in school and will watch those that are failing get paid to come to tutoring?! Gimme a break!

By catlady

January 23, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

I got (and later, my children got) VERY modest allowances. My parents insisted that part go to the church each week (through a pledge, made in advance). The rest I could use as I wished (at most it was $3 per week, when I was in high school—very modest even back then). The rest of my needs and wants—if it was important, my parents would furnish it, or I could babysit or do yard work in the area if I solicited the jobs. I was also expected to volunteer.

With my own children, if I wanted help with something above and beyond, like waxing the car, I let them know I was looking for help and would pay X amount. If someone wanted to earn that money, that was fine. If not, I would do it myself.

Mostly, my parents expected, and I expected, that my children would tend to business (schoolwork, church youth group, volunteer activies, sports/music, and family chores)and not be chasing after time and money wasting activities.

In my mind, there is a difference between a bribe and a reward. A reward came occasionally, not every time something good happened. It was expected that good things happening would be the norm. I knew to try hard all the time. A bribe is set up before hand—IF you do this, then you will GET this.

We have a lot of students who want to know “what will you give me for it” and I think that is a stinking shame. I tell them (even if I had planned to reward them, I will not reinforce that attitude) that I will give them a round of applause and a hearty handshake of congratulations.

By Where is my check?

January 23, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Wow and to think, I had to go to school, learn and actually make good grades because my parents made me. I was not offered money for making the honor roll. The honor roll just kept me off punishment and better yet, away from a belt. Where on earth is my check for having to attend tutorial sessions during my lunch break? Wow, I guess, my check came when I went to college, got my degree, and got a job. I guess my check came when, I got my raise for being able to do my job, because I can read, write, and even do a little math. Not because of a check from school, but because I had freakin parents who did their JOB and did not depend on the county to bribe me.

By Where is my check?

January 23, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

This is why we have lazy, unproductive kids running around in society. No one forces them to do anything or better yet, be held accountable. This generation is make me nervous about “my” future. We have a responsiblity to make them accountable and believe it or now, the old way was not bad. Many of us and I’m a “Gen X’er” came out okay, prior to IPods and IPhones and the internet. Technology is great, but we have to realize that technology is raising our children and not us. Pull them away from the video games, music downloads and see how many of your children will go into withdrawal, it is a drug and it is hurting everyone. This really has a lot to do with why our gov’t feels bribing our children will make them attend school. They (children) have the wrong babysitters and role models. The attention span is shot to you know what…and we have to figure out a way to get these kids back into the real world. That way should not include money or other gifts, it should include a sense of self pride and developing work ethics.

I work retail part-time and turn around for our young employees is crazy. They lack the drive to want to learn, show initiative, or find out how a lowely job in retail came be the best thing on their resume. All they want is a check and store hours that do not require them to do work while on the clock.

Scary.

By HB

January 23, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Catlady, it sounds like your parents and my mom had very similar parenting styles, right down to making a church pledge (when I was in high school and not particularly fond of my stepfamily’s church that we ended up in by default, I chose to give to a children’s charity instead). I maxed out at $5/week allowance and babysat to make extra funds, 10% of which also went to charity.

We have a lot of students who want to know “what will you give me for it” and I think that is a stinking shame.

So sad isn’t it? I think many (thank goodness not all!) kids have never learned to feel proud of their accomplishments just because they achieved — so many are being taught only to value the material goods that pile up. Earlier someone mentioned cheating — another result of valuing the grade and rewards over the actual learning. I can honestly say I never wanted to cheat because I never wanted a grade, good or bad, that wasn’t mine.

By Why Not?

January 23, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

WHY NOT? What is the difference between your sons and daughters earning extra money to help with chores around the house? Shouldn’t they just be ‘part of the family” and do this anyway? Until you can join forces with this group and formulate a solution or create one on your own - don’t put them down. They are trying to improve the situation, while most of us just read about it and post a comment. Do I totally agree with the program? No [$8.00 is more than minimum wage!]. Do I applaud these folks for TRYING to do something about the situation? Yes. We know that the students will be enticed by the money at first, but they will also (hopefully) have the opportunity to be exposed to excellent mentors and positive students that will have a meaningful impact on them in the long run. It’s a PILOT program people. We will see what happens in the wash! Do you want them on the streets after-school doing who knows what (either idle with no purpose/guidance or roaming with the wrong crowd). I don’t. $8.00 to participate in after-school program? WHY NOT?

By MrHughes

January 23, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

It’s funny to read the feigned outrage from people who have likely never taught in a classroom. They don’t know what it means to teach to the masses. They don’t know that you have to reach the trouble makers to truly teach or you will lose all the kids. They don’t know what it’s like to see kids warehoused with outdated books and substandard equipment. They don’t know that teachers today act as parents, social workers, counselors, and nutritionists.. They have no idea how much teachers have to come out of their own pockets for supplies and teaching materials because schools are so under funded. They have no clue about dealing with pressure from parents who want their children’s grades inflated, so they can receive HOPE or go to a good college. They have no clue of what it means to deal with administrators who want you to teach to a standardized test or do these draconian lesson plans filled with buzz words rather than actually teaching.

Guess what, the best teachers have one quality in common. They inspire. I really doubt all of ya’ll had this outrage when Michelle Phieffer was giving out candy, dinners at fancy restaurants, and trips to amusement parks in Dangerous Minds. Did you know that movie was based on a real person? Her job was to motivate and she did it in the best way she saw fit. Education is its own reward, but sometimes people need something tangible to motivate them. Ever heard of monetary bonuses based on performance? That’s all this is!! It happens in the real world too friends. Maybe some of you all should try using the things your kids want as a means to motivate them to work harder rather than spending like drunken sailors for birthdays and the holidays. You’d have a child that knew what an isosceles triangle is rather than one that doesn’t know the meaning of ironic and had overdeveloped wrists from playing their Nintendo Wii. Guess what, all those things mentioned in that Alannis Morrisett song aren’t ironic. That Wii, iPod, or Razr isn’t going to help you child when they can’t compute simple interest. The simple fact is that kids are not working as hard as they can. Kids can always be motivated to work harder and the large majority of parents are not doing it. Unless all of your kids were valedictorians with perfect scores on their SATs there’s room for improvement. It’s a study… The control group is the rest of the kids. And, they are not just going to hand out checks for kids to show up and sleep. Kids are getting incentives based on attendance and performance. Kudos to the school for trying something different. Real leadership is about looking at problems in new ways rather than panning something before it’s even been attempted. Ya’ll act like the status quo works… It doesn’t!! Georgia should be no where near 49th in SAT scores when you look at the number of Fortune 500 companies and institutions of higher learning here. Speaking of institutions of higher learning… it’s pathetic that there are children in college in this state that do not know how to write a simple essay. We are talking about a 5 paragraph essay with a simple thesis statement!! That should be mastered by middle school. America as a whole are behind in terms of competency in math and science. We live in a state where people question evolution with a straight face. They actually put sticker in textbooks!! I went to one of the best public high schools in this state about 10 years ago. I went on to the most selective college in this country. I’ve taught in a public school. And, I applaud them for trying to reach kids to get them to put time into their studies.

btw: I’d like to see all you good people sign your xmas bonus checks back to your employers since you had already performed your duties as they were described to you and you had no right to expect or accept anything extra. That goes for overtime wages also. We should do things like they do in Japan where you stay extra time to benefit company for the company’s sake. Yea right!! What hypocrites you all are!!

By catlady

January 23, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

• And, I applaud them for trying to reach kids to get them to put time into their studies.*

The goal is not the problem; the means to the goal is. I have been teaching for 34 years, have BS, MS, and Phds in education. I have taught at almost every grade level, all in schools with high numbers of poor students. I can tell you this program is not likely to cause anything but a short term gain, at the very best, for a very tiny percentage of the students. The students who have the aptitude and desire and self-discipline will “get it” during their class times. Remember, we are not talking about a student who just needs additional explanation on a calculus problem.

In addition to being of little help educationally to the students chosen for the program, it is not helpful to them in other ways in terms of the big picture. And it is a true slap in the face to the other kids who work hard, even with poverty staring them in the face, and succeed. Is that the message that is wanted?

Finally, I agree with Tony: how can this be called a research study without the controls he mentions, and how can it have gotten by Institutional Review? And what will SACS think of it? Paying SOME students to go to the class but NOT PAYING others? I mean, surely these classes are not just open to the students chosen to get the bribes? Schools are supposed to have programs to help all the students. Otherwise OCR gets very upset!

By ironmaiden

January 23, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this

I’ve been told by the admin-types that it is not the job of the classroom teacher to teach “responsibility”. Silly me, I thought our whole way of life depended upon that concept. Anyway, it is a minor concern compared to what we are teaching students so very successfully - “IRRESPONSIBILITY”!

By becky mattix

January 24, 2008 6:21 AM | Link to this

Oh, this is beyond ridiculous! Let’s also pay the kids to show up everyday, let’s give them money if they conform to a dress code, let’s pay them if they meet their curfew, etc… T%his school gets title 1 money, all kinds of perks that non-title 1 schools get and still it’s not enough. I have a novel idea, let’s reward the students that make good grades, stay out of trouble and are good role models.

By MrHughes

January 24, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Okay Ms 34 years/ BS, MS, and Phds in education, What’s your solution? Someone that’s spent this much time in the educational system should have thought about this before. Clearly, we agree with the ends. Our differences are regarding the means. Also, you can’t say what this program would result because you’ve never done it. What you have is called a hypothesis. Based on your education and experience you are making a guess on the outcome. I and others see it differently. Also, what school are you teaching in? Most students do not get “it” during class time. Most students may have a basic understanding of concepts, but truly mastering a concept requires study outside of class. This is the main reason why so many of Georgia’s students are behind academically once they get to college! Education is not an 9-5 where you toss your hard hat in the truck and head to the bar because you are done with the heavy lifting once the last bell rings. You should put in at least 2 hours of study time for every hour of class time. I dare to say that your attitude is part of the problem. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise. Teachers can’t reach every student during the lecture. Some students require indivdual instruction after the lecture to get them up to speed. What about students that learn in a different way than how the concept was presented in lecture? Other students require large amounts of indepent study with a tutor in order to get concepts. I’ve been on both sides of the spectrum. Again, the point of this is to get kids that are not performing well to perform better through an incentive. Students are offered incentives for good grades and attendance via governors honors, scholorships, grants, free movie rentals, free meals, tickets to sporting events, discounts on auto insurance, and the like. There’s nothing wrong with these programs. And, I bet the vast majority on here has taken advantage on at least one of these. Why the outrage over this proposed one? It’s about time someone proposed a program to reach and motivate the children that do not respond to the normal methods and are also underperforming to their detriment. Isn’t the goal of education actually educating all the kids? The free movie may work for one kid, while the Braves tickets may work for another. A potential scholorship may work for a child that dreams of going to college, but know their family can’t afford it. Don’t all of those things cost money? I’ll put it like this… Would you rather reward these kids now, for what they’d earn at a part time job, that likely advances them in no real way, and teach them the value of education, or have them fill up the rolls of our jails, prisons, graveyards, and public assistance programs?

The choice is simple to me…

btw… I’m still waiting to hear any idea from you about how to reach these kids. It’s wrong to criticize others ideas when you offer no solution of your own. It’s like that phrase, “If you are not part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem”. Ms 34 years/ BS, MS, and Phds in education… Please don’t be part of the problem!!! Offer some solution that doesn’t just apply to the kids that “get it in class”.

By *sigh*

January 24, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

MrHughes, I think you’re missing part of the point: the kids who would be a part of this program have already demonstrated that they are NOT the kinds of kids whose needs will (likely) be met with simple after-school tutoring. They need MORE than that … nevermind the fact that the reward of cash for doing what they OUGHT to do anyway is contrary to everything we know about rewards, adolescent/child development, education, and so on and so forth. So it’s a double-whammy of why this program is so porrly thought-out. (As per usual from the top-down management of the state. See today’s newest blog topic for more on that.)

By wwww

January 24, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Mr Hughes: It seems from your posts you work in education, are close to someone who does, or are just very passionate about the subject. Either way, I think you might like to know some of the information you are discussing in more than one post is not as dire as you predict. Please go back and read my earlier posts about the fallacy of using SAT scores to rank state education systems.

By Mrs. G's class

January 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

From the kids point of view:

CHP: It’s acutally a great idea. CMT: It should come to Taylor Road. UU: If it came to Taylor Road, I would join. CMT: We would all join it. CHP: We would work harder, if we were paid.

ACB: Right now we’re being asked to work really hard without being paid. You shouldn’t listen to the people above. Because it’s really not a bad idea. UU: If I were failing, I would definately join. CMT: Even though some kids are doing really good, they should still join and they’d still get smarter. Mrs.G: I think it’s an excellent idea. What would it hurt to reward kids? Pats on the back, or “good job”, works for me sometimes, but when the work gets hard…I need more to motivate.

By A. Dupin

January 24, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t this seem like a papier-mache solution to a concrete problem? Shouldn’t we put our education dollars to better use, like, say, to help willing and motivated kids pay for college? Maybe this school district and Mr. Gingrich should check out a few reasonable education plans: text to be linked

By Johnny

January 24, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

Cool blog. For anyone who wants to read: WorldWideBlog

By Allison

January 25, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this

Thanks Fulton County for a wonderful example for my psychology students. We have been talking about operant conditioning and schedules of reiforcement. My students had no problem explaining what would happen to the students on a fixed ratio schedule. When the reinforcement stops, the behavior stops. I teach some bright 12th graders and they are willing to serve as consultants for the Fulton County BOE. Sounds like they need all the help they can get.

By Mrs.G's class 1st

January 25, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

AH: I think I could join. CJ: I would, depends on how much money and what time it ends.AF:I think it’s a good idea, because the kids would actually come to school more.

By Willy

January 25, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

WTF!! This is really crazy! Why do society keep giving parents excuses not to do there job. There are many people in Aaron Rent that are grossly underpaid, but the company have extra income to spend on this program! Horrible

By fedup

January 25, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

More WELFARE! It hasn’t worked yet and it ain’t gonna work this time. Throwing money at it ain’t gonna fix it.

By mntb

January 26, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

One issue that’s not been raised is the methodology by which students who will participate have been selected. If it’s not a completely random sample of students with low grades, how can the supporters of this “study” claim that any results can be extrapolated?

For example, if the students participating were selected by their teachers as those who would be likely to benefit from extra attention because of family socioeconomic issues but who have not had discipline issues in their classes and who don’t have diagnosed learning difficulties, you have a population targeted to increase the probability of success and this experiment may have positive results. However these results would not likely be duplicated in a general population of low-performing students in these schools.

I haven’t seen any information on how the students were selected in any of the promotions of this program.

BTW, As a high school faculty member, I am highly skeptical of the efficacy of this plan on a large scale. I would advocate that instead these students have some academic strengths identified - relative as they may be - and that they be paid to tutor elementary or middle school students in those subjects. This would reward them for an actual job, strenthen their core skills and might motivate them to work harder in their weaker academic areas.

By R. Beale

January 26, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Hasn’t anyone heard of Federal Work Study? Federal aid for college students, financed by taxpayers?? This is practically the same thing!! I just graduated from college and utilized the work study program for four years. While some on-campus jobs actually require ‘work,’ most (and the highly sought after ones) are merely sitting at a desk and doing homework. I spent an entire semester earning $8 an hour for 10-20 hours/week by monitoring the entrance to our athletic center. I got more homework done there than in the library. I also had jobs where I was doing lame administrative work, but I was quick to leave those and find the ones with less work and more study.

By catlady

January 27, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

mntb makes great points as does tony earlier, about the “study”. Carefully hand-picked students might show some improvement. Some of the improvement might even carry over to when the money stops. It would not, however, be a valid study of the efficacy of monetary rewards for increasing achievement. Even if it is “successful”—and you can be sure some success will be spun out of it—will the cost/benefit analysis make it mean anything at all? If, for example, 6 students improve of the 40 that start the “study”, is that worth the expenditure of up to $23,200? (Plus teacher salaries and building overhead).

I told my daughter about it (recent dual BAs in math and astrophysics) and she thought it was great until she found out it would not be open to all students. As an honor student, she took every opportuntity to improve her work in high school. When she found out students would be screened to bribe only those not doing well, her take was the same as many on the blog, “Why pay people to study who do not seem to have already taken full advantage of the opportunities they have during the school hours? Let people who want MORE be rewarded for trying to increase their achievement.” Of course, those kids don’t have to be paid.

Mr. Beale has had a different Work Study experience than I or members of our family have had. Our college work study required constant work and certainly did not pay $8 per hour! Heck, as a grad asst working on a PhD, I am not sure I got paid that well! And at any rate, during work study you do not have an instructor at your call to explain your classwork, even if you had any time to study! Perhaps we went to the wrong universities.

Perhaps next time Mr. Loudermilk or Mr. Gingrich would speak to members of the educational research community who could assist them in more specifically targeting and designing a program to accurately test their hypotheses. Based only on what has been in the paper, that has NOT happened yet.