Get Schooled

By jim d

January 7, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this

I agree that contract policies should be looked at and possibly changed. I think more importantly though we need to look at who we are contracting to teach our children.

According to the U.S. Department of Education, one-quarter of English teachers do not have a major or minor in English, literature, communications or journalism. One-third of life-science teachers do not have a major or minor in biology or life science. Fifty-six percent of physical-science teachers do not have a major or minor in physics, chemistry, geology, or earth science. More than half of history teachers do not have a major or minor in history. Fifty-nine percent of math teachers do not have a major or minor in mathematics.

More than 4 million students take physics, chemistry, and history from teachers who are not prepared to teach these subjects. Those are the cold hard facts about our teachers. As for our children, 40 percent of students across the nation cannot read at a basic level.

By JustMe

January 7, 2008 8:09 AM | Link to this

jim d- Your jump to conclusions is very very wrong (and typical). One can be qualified to teach a subject without ‘majoring’ in that subject in college.

The GA PSC requires a minimum number of college course hours in a given subject to certify someone to teach in that subject. And, this is how it should be. It should not matter the ‘major’ that a person has.

For example, a person that ‘majors’ in physics must usually take 6+ courses of higher level math (calculus, diff. equ., etc.). So although that person didn’t ‘major’ in math, they could and should be qualified to teach high school math.

So therefore, one must look deeper into the numbers to draw any real conclusions. Try it - you may find out something! Go to the GA PSC web site (I know you love to do those internet searches) and see how many college courses are required for the various teaching certificates. You may be surprised.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

JM,

And your reading comp has once again failed.

Major or MINOR

Just my opinon of course that teachers should be trained in the discipline they are teaching if we truly are looking to improve education.

Of course, you too are entitled to your opinon regardless of how wrong you are.

By Joy in Teaching

January 7, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this

Legally, teachers do not have to return contracts until late in May. (Sorry….can’t remember the exact date.) However, because teachers are mostly kept in the dark about education laws, most of us don’t even realize that. We are simply told to “return the signed contract by X date or forget about returning next year.” And then, the contract is deliberately vague without saying what will be taught, where, or even the exact amount of salary because the General Assembly may or may not approve a cost of living raise.

I know that non teachers all shake their heads at this sort of thing and say, “you teachers are treated like that because you ALLOW them to treat you that way.” And you are partially right about that. We work in a broken system that strives to hold teachers accountable without giving them any real power in order to affect a change.

When I started teaching 20 years ago, I did so with a fire in my belly that I wanted to teach kids how to think, how to reason, and how to acquire new knowledge. After 20 years of being told that my teaching methods are not good enough and that I must try the latest trend that comes down the pike, my priorities have changed. I simply try to reach the few kids who want to be reached instead of trying to change the world. And I feel bad about that, honestly.

Teachers go into teaching because they like kids and want to see them become successful, thriving adults. The system that we’ve inherited is wearing us down to the point where we are so busy making sure our lesson plans have all the bells and whistles on them…that they leave us with little energy to do much else.

Personally, I wouldn’t encourage anyone to into teaching these days. It’s easy to say, “well, if you don’t like the system, then you should change it.” But until you actually work within that system, you will never understand how truely impossible it is to do that.

By Retired

January 7, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

The whole “merit-based” pay scale doesn’t take into account the fact that a teacher teachers upper level and AP classes will seemingly be doing a “better job” than a teacher who is teaching basic or below level classes. Both teachers may do an excellent job of teaching the material. However, when students miss 2 or 3 days a week their grades and test scores are not indicative of the type of teacher at the front of the classroom. There are many teachers out there who give out easy grades in lower levels because they want to look good on paper. I know because I’ve taught with them. They are not interested in what the students are learning, but rather the paycheck at the end of the month. Teachers are only paid for 190 days of work. If you take their salary and divide it by 190, they don’t look so “underpaid.” Let’s suppose a teacher makes $50,000 a year. That’s $263.16 per day, or $33.89 per hour. Not bad for teaching 5 classes and being home by 4:00 every day! Don’t let teachers snow you into thinking they are underpaid. Sure they get a paycheck in the summertime, but it is ONLY BECAUSE THE STATE WITHHOLDS IT FROM THEM DURING THE YEAR. IN OTHER WORDS, TEACHERS GET THE MONEY THEY EARNED IN AUGUST-MAY IN JUNE AND JULY.

By Jeff

January 7, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

Joy:

Those last two paragraphs pretty well sum up all the problems I had in the classroom and why I finally decided to leave it.

I think MOST teachers that wind up leaving the profession would say the same.

By Jeff

January 7, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

Retired:

Two comments here:

1) Let’s just say - and this is fact - that I was still getting paid by Randolph County through April - and I had stopped working there at the end of January. Whereas if I left my current job right now, I’d get ONE more check worth roughly half of my normal check due to the checks being one week behind the actual pay period, as is normal in the ‘real’ world.

2) Most teachers don’t make $50K. Matter of fact, first years make 30K, MAYBE. That’s $19.73 an hour. Now, you’re going to say that that number is not that bad. But $19.73 divided by 30 kids is 0.65 cents per hour per kid, or $5.26 per per kid per day. BABY SITTERS get paid more than that, not to mention actual day care centers!!!

By jim d

January 7, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

But Jeff,

They do “get summers off” (LOL)

By jim d

January 7, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Seriously, if you think teacher entry level pay is lacking. Try being a state cop. Entry level there is less than $30,000. Of course you do get to carry a loaded weapon!

By priscilla

January 7, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

In most professions you have X amount of paid holidays per year. In the teaching profession, you have none. Teachers are paid for a 190 day contract. There are no paid holidays such as Christmas, vacation, etc. True we have a lot of days off, but these are not paid holidays. Our pay is divided so that we are only paid for the 190 days we actually work. Any days off are unpaid holidays. How many corporations give no paid holidays and vacation time?

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Joy, I am going to copy and paste your comments because I think they are 100% dead-on.

I taught in Gwinnett, and when I actually asked to take my contract home and read it, the secretary actually had to ask if I was allowed to do so!!! We were also TOLD EXPLICITLY that we had 24 hours to sign and return the contract.

I signed my contracts every year with a little “ud” next to my name. No one ever questioned it…

jim d — I understand your concern about unqualified teachers, but it is possible to be entirely qualified and not have either. Just Me gives a good example about physics majors taking math. I was an engineering major and became certified to teach math (I also, because of electives I took in college, initially had certification in both physics and biology. I let those certificates lapse because I didn’t want to teach those subjects.) In my case, I think I was able to give a broader sense of the “hows and whys” of the math I taught, because I had actually USED it. When I taught trig, for example, I could explain how trig was used to build electronics, because I had done it! I would wager that most math-major math students would not have had that experience — and that to some extent, it made me a better teacher than I might have otherwise been.

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

I’d like to add some comment about merit pay for teachers. I too worked at a private school where we had a merit-based system and we could negotiate our salaries (to some extent) like “real world” jobs!

My point is short: most people on this blog tend to associate merit pay for teachers with an implied tie-in to student performance. In my experience, the two were not directly related.

Merit pay was based on professional behavior; preparation for the classes; appropriate assessments; appropriate communication with both parents and students AND staff; involvement with school activities/committees; professional development; responding appropriately to requests, etc. In other words, we were expected to do all the things that good, interested, caring teachers ought to do. HOW your students did was considered to be a product of WHAT you did otherwise — and your salary/raise would reflect your involvement and “care” measured by those other indicators.

Test scores were NOT a line item on our evaluations, but the merit system worked fairly well.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

HS too,

I just did as JM had asked and went to find the requirements for Georgia teacher certification in particular fields of endeavor.

What I find alarming is that there are a couple of areas even I could attain certification for, and that just ain’t right!

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

Oops. In my first post, I meant that I was copying and pasting Joy’s comments to save for later. And at the end of that post, I meant to say math-major math TEACHERS, not students.

multi-tasking isn’t working for me! hah hah

By Private School Guy

January 7, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

In regards holidays and leave. One of the greatest disadvantaces is lack of increase in vacation time for years worked and that there is no choice of vacation days.

My spouse in her 20 year career had accumulated six weeks of paid leave in that time, a teacher has the same number of non working days the first year of their career as the 20th year. The lack of flexibility in vacation time is also a a reason to demand good pay. While many other businesses have certain times during the year such as Christmas in the retail business, that they cannot take leave but for educators there is no choice. Forget going to Europe in the Spring or Fall, or doing a ski trip in January. I can only travel now at the peak season and that is a drawback and an expense. The fixed leave schedule may be required but it should be considered in the cost of paying educators.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

HS too,

Let me just ask for an honest answer here. Do you honestly believe that coming right out of college with an engeneering major, no math minor, that you would be nearly as qualified as you apparently are now to teach math even if you qualified under current state requirements?

(just a side note; I think the Praxis II exams are a bit of a joke.)

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

Jim d,

Fair enough, and I do see your point about letting grossly unqualified people teach. I just wanted to show that there are ways — legitimate ways — to be apropriately qualified without having the major/minor. So, I treat about blanket statements like that with concern. But thinking about it, I believe that requirements typically say “or equivalent” to allow for examples such as Just Me (and I) gave.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

PSG,

You have just made one very strong argument for Year Round School.

Thanks.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

HS too,

“letting grossly unqualified people teach”

Was that a shot? LOL

By Jeff

January 7, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

jim:

Even I would allow for academic vs applied differences. Such as I wouldn’t mind a generic engineering major teaching math - assuming their college required a lot of math-based classes for the degree. As HST2 said, they have the foundation from an applied side, and I really have no problems with that. I would PREFER the academic side qualifications, but my main concern is that you know the topic at hand, and if that knowledge comes because you designed a 200’ bridge in an earthquake-prone area, heck, feel free to teach my kid trig!

Regarding PRAXIS II: Dude, I took that test, and I’m here to tell ya, It’s like pimpin’: IT AINT EASY!! Honestly, I got through one of the two tests because on the major component, where you can choose one of two questions to answer, one was a Modern Algebra question that we had just recently covered in the Modern Algebra class I was taking at the time and I had thoroughly enjoyed (re: I knew it backwards, forwards, upside down, and twice on Sunday) the very issue the question addressed.

The other test - multiple choice - was similar to the MC tests I designed: if you didn’t KNOW your crap, you stood ZERO chance at passing that sucker. (Example: It the answer was 1.34523, the other three choices would be 1.34522, 1.24524, and 1,24533, or worse!!)

By jim d

January 7, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Ok, jeff,

But my point is that I would prefer to have someone who had spent considerable time (in college) studying a subject and who really understands the subject matter, teaching the subject, rather than someone that has crammed for a couple of months to attain enough knowledge to barely pass the test for their certification.

Granted, there are other methods of certifcation. The question is not really one of highly qualified but more one of “better highly qualified”

Not to say that the only road to education is college, but it certainly is a plus.

I think what I find somewhat disturbing is the pure numbers reported by the DOE. We are talking (in several instances) over 50% of teachers not having even a minor in the subject matter they are teaching.

By JustMe

January 7, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

jd -

I guess you have discovered for yourself on the GA PSC site and also from the others posting here, that my reading comp is NOT lacking. What I said was true - to be certified to teach requires a college diploma and a minimum number of hours in specific areas.

No - IMHO this does not mean that someone unqualified can teach. A college diploma SHOULD mean something. And if that person took enough college courses in a subject, they SHOULD be able to teach a high school course in that subject, or more likely an elementary class. IMHO that DOES make them qualified.

Are you saying that a college physics major that took 6+ college math courses up to advanced calculus is not qualified to teach elementary algebra in middle school? Or addition and subtraction in elementary school?

Give me a break!

With all due respect, your initial response is representative of the general public that does not understand the process of certification. And, the process that you are going through to learn everything does not happen with the general public.

By the way, the Praxis for any core high school area is no joke! Which is why GA did away with it and decided to make their own. The Praxis is no longer required FYI.

By Jeff

January 7, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

jim:

I guess this is what the difference between us boils down to:

I know enough at a high level of detail that I can independently quiz (nearly) anyone on (nearly) anything. Now, while I typically don’t do this, I COULD, and probably WOULD, if I felt a teacher that taught my kid was unqualified.

Those subjects that I DON’T know as well, I have friends and/ or former colleagues that I can turn to for what to ask/ the responses I should get type issues. (Or, except in the case of Advanced Calc or Chem, I can go teach myself enough to get myself in some pretty deep crap! Note that even with Calc, I understand the ideas of what is going on, even when I don’t always know exactly how to solve the problem!)

By Hick from the Sticks

January 7, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Jeff—

I must disagree. We usually see eye to eye (which may be a question of my mental being after returning from our winter “break”) on most things, but the Praxis is nothing at all like pimpin’.

Trust me—neither my floor lenght fur coat, nor my pseudonym of Huggy Bear was accepted.

By V for Vendetta

January 7, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

LOL, Hicks.

Some interesting points on this blog, but allow me to proffer an opinion on some of these issues:

Perhaps a better solution is what Jeff proposed yesterday: require that ADVANCED degrees be in the subject(s) you intend to teach. I think that makes a great deal of sense.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

JM,

“Are you saying that a college physics major that took 6+ college math courses up to advanced calculus is not qualified to teach elementary algebra in middle school? Or addition and subtraction in elementary school?”

By no means. What I’m saying is that one would generally assume that a teacher that had at least minored in math might be a better qualified candidate to teach math. I will give you that it may not always be the case. I’ve seem some great mathmaticans who held PHD’s that were unable to “TEACH”

Keep in mind that my origional post is discussing teachers on a national level and not specifically Georgia. My mention of Praxis was based on the many states that still do use it. But after reviewing the sample questions on the GACE test (history), I’m not convinced either one is too tough.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

V,

How receptive would you be to requiring a beginning teacher to teach in the area of education they studied, only allowing them to test for other certifications after they had demonstrated the ability to teach?

By Jeff

January 7, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

V:

Actually, the idea EX3 and I were hashing out the other day would mean subject-based degrees for UNDERGRADS and virtually eliminate Colleges of Education. The basic idea was to eliminate ‘free’ electives for those who wish to teach and replace them with the three EDUC-type undergrad classes that actually MEAN something: crash courses in Child Development, Exceptional Children, and BASIC classroom management/ motivation.

Other than this, the major/ minor would be subject based, and the prosepective teacher would be required to fulfull all obligations of a non-teacher in their subject major, PLUS the additional burden of having no actual ‘free’ electives.

Upon graduation, the person would be qualified to go into industry OR teaching. If the person still chooses teaching, some unit of the University’s Career Center would help place the person in a one year paid internship as a full teacher. This internship would be monitored only by the administration at the school and a mentor teacher assigned to the intern. The University would have NO MORE to do with the person once the placement is made.

At the end of the year, if the school would typically offer this person another contract, s/he is instead given his/her full certificate and allowed to independently find a job - possibly exactly where he/she was interning, possibly somewhere else.

By Private School Guy

January 7, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

One method of working out merit pay would be to leave it to site administrators with some system approval and oversite. The pricipal could be given X amount of dollars to give out as bonuses. If they squander the cash on coaches and friends then they would suffer the consquences when their schools fail to show improvement.

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

jimd, sorry I stepped away for a while.

Absolutely not. But I did have the appropriate math training, and I am not convinced that being a math major would have made me any better qualified in that area. (this is how we engineers looked at it: math majors took the math classes to get content knowledge. We didn’t take the classes, but were expected to have or quickly acquire the knowledge to do well in our engineering classes.) What I needed in addition to the math classes were pedagogy classes, child psych, adolescent development, etc. I took those AFTER I got my undergrad.

As for the Praxis, I sat there with a man who announced that it was his EIGHTH time taking it. And Lord knows, if he passed it, he’d be hired to teach. Gulp.

But there is another intangible we’re leaving out here, and that is the DESIRE to teach (not just to “be a teacher” for whatever perks one thinks it has), and a special talent/skill/whatever you want to call it to be ABLE to teach. That’s an essential part (I might argue THE essential part) of being a good teacher, and having it (or not) won’t depend on what you majored in in college!

By V for Vendetta

January 7, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

JimD, Understood, and I absolutely DON’T disagree with your idea of starting a teacher off in the subject he/she is most familiar with. That makes perfect sense.

I don’t know if the problem is that the PRAXIS (GACE, now) is too easy, but rather that people can take it as many times as they want. I think if you fail to pass it on the first two attempts, you might need to consider another line of work. (Or at least put a moratorium on how soon it is before they can take it again.) In my group that took the PRAXIS, there were at least four or five people that were taking it for the 3rd + time.

I think JimD is finding that kind of lackluster performance unaccpetable. I can’t say I disagree with him one bit.

By V for Vendetta

January 7, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

JimD, Understood, and I absolutely DON’T disagree with your idea of starting a teacher off in the subject he/she is most familiar with. That makes perfect sense.

I don’t know if the problem is that the PRAXIS (GACE, now) is too easy, but rather that people can take it as many times as they want. I think if you fail to pass it on the first two attempts, you might need to consider another line of work. (Or at least put a moratorium on how soon it is before they can take it again.) In my group that took the PRAXIS, there were at least four or five people that were taking it for the 3rd + time.

I think JimD is finding that kind of lackluster performance unaccpetable. I can’t say I disagree with him one bit.

By Martha

January 7, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Hey!! I am a veteran teacher and I’d gladly swap some $$ in pay for a loaded Glock. Bet I wouldn’t have to use but one or two bullets before things got much better, much faster. g

I threatened my own two children with no financial support during college (they both received the HOPE grant) if they majored in education. I re-iterated that promise many times during their school careers. No way would I put a child of mine in today’s classroom.

By Martha

January 7, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Hey!! I am a veteran teacher and I’d gladly swap some $$ in pay for a loaded Glock. Bet I wouldn’t have to use but one or two bullets before things got much better, much faster. g

I threatened my own two children with no financial support during college (they both received the HOPE grant) if they majored in education. I re-iterated that promise many times during their school careers. No way would I put a child of mine in today’s classroom.

By Martha

January 7, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Hey!! I am a veteran teacher and I’d gladly swap some $$ in pay for a loaded Glock. Bet I wouldn’t have to use but one or two bullets before things got much better, much faster. g

I threatened my own two children with no financial support during college (they both received the HOPE grant) if they majored in education. I re-iterated that promise many times during their school careers. No way would I put a child of mine in today’s classroom.

By Martha

January 7, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Hey!! I am a veteran teacher and I’d gladly swap some $$ in pay for a loaded Glock. Bet I wouldn’t have to use but one or two bullets before things got much better, much faster. g

I threatened my own two children with no financial support during college (they both received the HOPE grant) if they majored in education. I re-iterated that promise many times during their school careers. No way would I put a child of mine in today’s classroom.

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

So - in what specific way is your employment contract outdated? It might be nice if someone here actually addressed the issue that was raised in the headline. Is it the timing? I’d rather have it presented to me early in the year for my own planning purposes. You’d be screaming for sure, if they waited until the summer, and I imagine that the school system is trying to get an early look at the numbers of returning teachers in order to plan their recruitment. That’s evil, for sure. If they need teachers as bad as we are all led to believe, then you’ll still have a job if you take time to read and understand your contract before you sign and return it. There is, of course, always the off chance that a teacher will not be “invited” back, and of couse you’d want to know that post haste, but from what I can see that must be rare. Quoting from above a teacher who was told “for twenty years that her teaching methods were not good enough” - well if you can hang on for twenty years doing a poor job, then are you really worried that they won’t want you back next year? They’ll probably promote you. Are you complaining because the contract is standardized? Do you want a special one written just for you?

The specific complaints in the blog and the responses don’t really have anything to do with your employment contract. Issues of pay rate/pay for performance/merit increases/major or minor studies etal don’t really have anything to do with your agreement to work next year. However, it does give teachers an issue to tee off on - and let the complaints fly. I really love to hear teachers feel sorry for themselves. It can be hilarious when they attempt to figure out their pay per child, complain that they are “kept in the dark on education laws”, (is that a right or left wing conspiracy?), whine that spouses work 20 years to get 5-6 weeks of vacation when teachers are restricted to the same schedule forever, and try mightily (and unsuccessfully) to construct a way to explain their pay/hours worked that will support their contention that they are underpaid. If the school systems want to improve their contracts, they should include a clause restricting your ability to identify yourselves as teachers in any blog, post, or other public arena because it just supports the negative view that I and others have of most of you.

And if you could make more babysitting - why don’t you?

By tonyac

January 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Leigh,

If you have such a negative view of teachers, why are you here? Because to have a negative view of teachers is to view education in itself negatively—at least when used with the derigative tone you set forth in your post.

If you took the time to REALLY read the blog entry, the comments here are for the most part just what the conversation should have been. It is the teaching contracts that constrict both teachers and administration for addressing a very many teaching concerns and issues. Not one teacher here asked for a personalized contract, just one that allows some bargaining from both sidesin regards to rewards for good effort and performance.

By tonyac

January 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Leigh,

If you have such a negative view of teachers, why are you here? Because to have a negative view of teachers is to view education in itself negatively—at least when used with the derigative tone you set forth in your post.

If you took the time to REALLY read the blog entry, the comments here are for the most part just what the conversation should have been. It is the teaching contracts that constrict both teachers and administration for addressing a very many teaching concerns and issues. Not one teacher here asked for a personalized contract, just one that allows some bargaining from both sidesin regards to rewards for good effort and performance.

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

I believe you mean derogative.

By jim d

January 7, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Gotta go,

Thanks all for the conversation today. Especially you JM, you made me go do a bit of very enlightening reading.

ta,ta for today.

By tonyac

January 7, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Leigh,

Yes, I did. Thank you for being my spellcheck. But the greater message is a lot of teachers have very valid complaints regarding this aspect of their careers. Without them, no society would succeed.

Disagree with methods or reasoning, but don’t put down an entire profession that is the foundation for everything we know.

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

I will certainly revise my thinking. now that it has been pointed out to me that the teaching profession is responsible for life as we know it. Oh well, perhaps it is.

By Martha

January 7, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

No, Leigh, teachers are not responsible for life as we know it, but they did give you the luxury of being able to read this blog and throw in your two cents worth. Or, are you one of the geniuses who taught herself how to read with absolutely no help?

I love my job and I am good at it. But, I do not like where I see education headed in the very near future. And, until educators are paid a reasonable salary for all the work they do—in school, at home, or during that fabulous 2 month vacation—I don’t see much chance of recruiting outstanding people to teach our most valuable asset, our children.

And may I also throw in here that until colleges of education tighten entrance requirements for education programs, we will continue to get borderline teachers. I don’t expect every teacher to be able to do higher level math or college level physics (unless those are their areas of emphasis), but I would like to see all teachers able to speak a grammatically correct sentence, write a paper reflecting their ability to organize their thoughts and express themselves coherently, manage a classroom and set a positive example through their own public lives. Wooo-hooo, that sentence is way too long, but perhaps my point is clear.

With my education and experience, I could leave teaching and double my salary—easily. I choose not to do so because I do love my job.

And do let me add that I’ll gladly compare my working hours to non-teachers. I am in the classroom all day, take work home at night and for the weekends and during the summer I attend classes, at my own expense with no reimbursement for meals/lodging/travel. I don’t have a phone on my desk, can’t use my cell, can’t just walk out and get a cup of coffee or a breath of fresh air (students are never to be left unsupervised), and so on and so on.

Sorry this is so long and it is certainly not my best effort, but I have at least 3 hours of work to do tonight. No time to proofread and correct it.

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

No education discussion would be complete without the obligatory paragraph reciting (1) hours worked, (2)work taken home nights and weekends, and (3)required additional schooling that is not compensated. Thanks for correcting this oversight.

Not that it is particularly relevant to this discussion, but I did read prior to kindergarten, but I will give you guys credit for my math skills, such as they are.

By luvs2teach

January 7, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

And, Leigh, no education discussion would be complete without someone who is not a teacher complaining about our complaints! As if we should just lie down, take it all and then some, because we’re publically paid employees and have the summers off.

For the record, I worked in the ‘real world’ and I heard a lot of the same complaints from my co-workers there - I think complaining is a national pasttime. However it really seems as though teachers are supposed to be thankful we have a job - that we work at your good graces - and not say anything as we get bashed over and over and over again.

I love my job and I’m not unhappy with my compensation, as such. Yet, as a science major (not science ed - my ed certificate was an add-on) I could make a lot more in the real world, but I love what I do. How do we get more people like me - people qualified to make more with the passion to teach to come do this crazy thing we do?

Maybe you missed the threads of the past few days, as we discussed education needs some changes, some “out of the pencil box” thinking as it were. And changing the way teachers are hired, paid, and retained could be one of those ways.

Please stay and discuss your valid thoughts with us, but if you want to be a snarky teacher basher, go over to Wooten’s blog - they’ll love you there.

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

So, we’ve been admonished to get back to the topic of contracts. Today’s blog topic, you will note, did not provide an explicit question as much it provided a spring-board for conversation. The conversation, as it often does, meandered and eventually settled on a few diverse topics. Yes, some of them are belabored. So what? There are plenty of days when I read this blog and think, “oh, not again,” and I simply don’t read any more of the entries.

What one poster here seems to be missing is that the teachers on this blog who do comment on the hours, the pay, and whatever other item in the parade of horribles may present itself, are almost without exception saying that they, too, are tired of having to explain (either side of) that particular issue to people. And most of the teachers do not state those issues AS COMPLAINTS. They state them as facts that you will note do NOT drive the teachers from their chosen profession. Most of the teachers on this blog continue to teach because they have a passion for it. Isn’t that what we all want from our teachers, after all? Qualified people who love what they do, and continue to do it despite the carousel of imperatives imposed upon them? My goodness, I couldn’t stand myself if I had to wake up in the morning and trudge to work. I feel bad for folks who live such a life!

As for contracts, more than a few of us talked about contracts today. The fact that someone brought up the FACT that many teachers are (blissfully, in some cases) unaware of their rights was NOT a call for a pity party. It was yet another statement of fact, and a consideration of whether such FACTS contribute to the arguably antiquated contracts process. It is a fact to say that there are teachers who are ignorant just as it is a fact to say that there are smart people in prison. We can lament each all we wish, but simply stating the facts doesn’t mean we wanted to feel sorry for either group.

I will say, as I said earlier, that the contracts ARE, in my experience, thrust at teachers with a mandate to sign it on the spot. Most teachers expect to be back, want to be back, and know that ultimately, they don’t have any bargaining power to effect a line-item change in their individual contracts. So, in turn, they sign. The rationale is that it doesn’t matter, anyway. And if that’s true, then why not just cut to the chase and be done with it? Can’t fault a person for efficiency.

I didn’t do that. I took the time to read my contract, and not liking all the terms — but knowing I had no practical say in revising those terms — I signed it with a “u.d.” next to my name. (For example, for years, contracts in Gwinnett County were issued with either incorrect or BLANK salary lines! Imagine signing a contract that said I would work for an amount to be determined later! No, thank you!)

There was intermittent conversation today about merit-pay systems. I wish that had taken root because it might have been a very interesting tangent.

Perhaps tomorrow.

And, perhaps tomorrow our critics will contribute something more constructive than bald criticism. I’m all for criticism, but please — offer a solution as well. That’s how conversation is really enriched. I think Leigh might have a lot to offer us here on this blog, if only Leigh would attack less and explain more.

I’ve got cases to read. Good night, everyone.

By catlady

January 7, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this

One thing I DO find funny is that there is, for a favored few, contract negotiation for some teachers. Witness: the BOE offers very favorable terms for highly sought after coaches and administrators or other “special” people. (The coach gets paid a full salary for only teaching 1/4 of the day, plus a large stipend for his coaching duties; the asst. principal’s wife gets a position that she may not have the certification for currently; another coach’s wife is allowed to pick her school (that she is not certified for) work half-time, and set her own ground rules; a BOE member’s daughter sets up her schedule so that she gets full time pay but over 7 planning hours per week (the rest of us get 25 minutes a day). I could go on and on.

So there IS negotiation possible, if you have the pull to make it happen.

By catlady

January 7, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

BTW, what do we ECE/elementary teachers major in? I can truly say I have had one or more “how to teach” classes in EVERY subject you can imagine: music, art, science, health, social studies, math, reading, language arts, as well as student development training, assessment training, sp ed, linguistics, reading remediation, the list goes on and on. Then add 34 years of professional development. I guess I can teach anything, except I don’t know anything about anything, right?

On the Praxis, at least for lower grade teachers, it was a joke. Much worse than HSGT. However, we had a teacher at our school who had to take it 5 times to get past the math part. Now, THAT is scary.

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

I do believe you should be grateful to have your job (as should anyone who has a stable position these days in any field), and I do believe that you work at the pleasure of your employer. That’s the set-up in a nutshell — you are hired and paid by the taxpayer to educate the county’s students. I believe that all your complaining is just an extra perk for those of us who enjoy its predictability.

And I believe you meant publicly.

By Dennis

January 7, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this

As a retired teacher (33 years), and the parent of five so-called “gifted” children, I feel qualified to say a word or two here (although not the LAST WORD!).

First, public education is the backbone of this country, not the Pentagon, not industry, not Wall Street.

Public education is the biggest bargain this country has. It tries to do a job that is impossible because it is set up to be impossible to achieve the results that those who complain about it want to see.

IF IT WAS POSSIBLE, THOSE WHO ARE COMPLAINING WOULD BE IN THE CLASSROOM TEACHING.

Are there some teachers who fail to do a good job…(are there some CEOs who fail to do a good job but still get a tremendous separation package)?

If we should put into public education the same kinds of billions of dollars we have put into a failed war in Iraq, the Right Wing would be screaming bloody murder, their taxes are too high and government is wasting money.

The failures are not always the teachers nor the parents. Sometimes it is the kids, who see more value in watching television and playing computer games or dream of becoming the next O.J. Simpson or Ms. America than in education. Every child is not going to be “saved” until that vision is changed.

A good first step to improving education would be to toughen the requirements for becoming an administrator. Not less than ten years in the classroom before becoming an assistant principal, six more years before becoming a principal and nothing short of twenty years before becoming a superintendent.

And as the costs of living go up, so should the funding for public education in an equal amount or more.

As to “merit pay”, if a teacher of the “gifted” raises the test scores of the class by fifteen points and the teacher of the (being politically correct, here) “slow learners” raises the test scores of the class by six points, who gets the merit pay?

As one who was successful enough to have earned it (had it been in vogue during my tenure) throw merit pay out the door.

Poor construction material is thrown out the door. We can’t do that with kids.

As for Leigh, (above) I once taught middle school for eight years from the time it was instituted in our school system, and then we were told that were was not qualified because we had not taken a class called “The Nature and Nurture of the Middle School Learner”, a new class that had just been created at the local university. Teachers, too, have to put up with a lot of crap.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

Leigh, lest you forget, teachers are taxpayers, too — and tend to live in the counties in which they teach.

You’ve made quite the introduction for yourself on this blog today, for better or for worse. Primarily you’ve been complaining that teachers’ complaints are not novel, and if I may paraphrase your posts, you’re a little sick of it all. To you, with your taxpayer-as-employer whines, I say, “likewise.”

Now, please, can we engage in some real discussion? What are YOUR thoughts on teacher contracts? On merit pay? How would YOU change the system? What experiences have you had with the school system that have given you the staunchy negative views you’ve alluded to in your posts today?

I’m all ears. (Or eyes, as the case is.)

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dennis. These are great thoughts. But you did miss several obvious opportunities to CAPITALIZE.

By HS Teacher Too

January 7, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

staunchly

By luvs2teach

January 7, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

Leigh - Indeed I did mean publicly - I’m a terrible typist and my thoughts flow quicker than my fingers keep up.

I’m glad your spelling is good, because your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. I didn’t say I wasn’t grateful to be employed and I didn’t say that I didn’t believe I worked at the pleasure of my employer - the taxpayer (and might I remind you that as a taxpayer, I pay a portion of my own salary! Since I live in my district, I have a particularly vested interest in a job well done).

What I said was that those things did not exclude us from having complaints (although I should’ve used the term concerns) about the conditions of the job we do and the public perception of said job. It also doesn’t preclude us from discussing them on a public forum like this one.

My point, which you clearly missed, was that we would love to hear your valid contribution, not your predictable bashing (which is very old hat to most of us here).

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

Gesundheit.

By luvs2teach

January 7, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

As I was driving home, I thought about the issue of contracts and I thought what I Teach Media is proposing is very similar to how pro athletes are compensated: doing a good job? Multi-year contract with performance bonuses. Coming to the end of your career or not performing as well? Single-year contract. You not sure what you want to next year? Single-year contract. Coming out of Emory with a 4.0 and excellent student teaching evaluations? Multi-year with a signing bonus…and so on. It would put a necessary element of competition into the field.

I like it - it rewards good teachers who want to stay in a system with which they’re happy. It could address some taxpayer criticisms with the step pay scale. Merit pay could be incorporated as bonuses - and not just for student achievement but for things like securing grant money or being a mentor.

As far as the Praxis II goes, I thought the HS science was a pretty good assessment. It was in 2 parts: multiple choice and essay. It covered all the branches of science in decent depth. I only had to take it once (I scored very well on the MC part - 192 out of 200; the essays were graded differently, but I did very well on those, too). I knew people who had to take it 3 and 4 times, and that should be a huge concern. I like the idea of limiting the number of times someone can take it, or making them wait a certain amount of time in between. I also think we need to raise the GPA for admittance in the colleges of Education - if for no other reason than to silence critics who say “education is the easiest major.”

jim d - don’t let the sample questions fool you - the science samples are deceptively easy compared to what was actually on the test - history may be the same.

HS Teacher Too - your school’s merit-based system is exactly the type I could get behind - it looks at all the teacher’s responsibilities and focuses on aspects of performance of which the teacher is in control.

catlady - I couldn’t teach elementary ed to save my life - you have my props on that one.

To all - since we have a spelling and grammar nazi lurking, forgiveness is requested ahead of time for any spelling and grammar mistakes made in the heat of the discussion (and my bad typing). Hopefully the medium won’t get in the way of the message.

By ironmaiden

January 7, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this

The state expects teachers to work 30 years for full retirement eligibility. However, my county provides step increases only up to 21 years. So I am expected to work almost one-third of my career with infrequent raises only authorized when the governor wants to get re-elected. These raises are beneficial for about a year when the increase in healthcare premiums eats them right up. I would like to know why the most experienced teachers in the work force are not being financially encouraged to stay in the profession. Some of us are very good at what we do, but the disregard, and ridiculous political agendas, are an almost irresistible pull, no push, to just get out! Negotiate contracts?? I was given an “Intent Form” to sign today. Wouldn’t it be nice if it came with some monetary recognition?

By ironmaiden

January 7, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

The state expects teachers to work 30 years for full retirement eligibility. However, my county provides step increases only up to 21 years. So I am expected to work almost one-third of my career with infrequent raises only authorized when the governor wants to get re-elected. These raises are beneficial for about a year when the increase in healthcare premiums eats them right up. I would like to know why the most experienced teachers in the work force are not being financially encouraged to stay in the profession. Some of us are very good at what we do, but the disregard, and ridiculous political agendas, are an almost irresistible pull, no push, to just get out! Negotiate contracts?? I was given an “Intent Form” to sign today. Wouldn’t it be nice if it came with some monetary recognition?

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

One innocent German reference and now I’m a nazi?

I believe I meant Nazi.

By C.R.H.

January 7, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

Wow, sounds like Leigh had a parent conference not go her way today! Do teachers complain? Oh, sure. But some people need to act grateful that they continue to show up for work every day. I got fed up with the BS and walked away, one less science teacher in Georgia. BTW, I have advanced degrees, was educated in the midwest and also scored well on every stupid certification test I had to cough up good $$$ to take. If every teacher that complained did the same, Leigh would probably be stuck at home with her own ungrateful offspring (and wishing the teachers would come back)! Some people who want teachers to stop complaining might want to be careful what they wish for…they just might get it!

By Leigh

January 7, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

Please check with your county. You absolutely should be receiving monetary recognition. Typically it should come to you monthly via direct deposit. Contractually.

By ironmaiden

January 7, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

Leigh, I certainly hope you have an amorous adult experience this evening.

By Lee

January 7, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this

Jim D, regarding your first few posts, thought you might find this link to Ga Professional Standards Commission degree / certification matrix interesting.

By luvs2teach

January 7, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this

Funny, I know I meant nazi as in “grammar nazi” or “spelling nazi”…a slang term usually uncapitalized.

And yet, with no reference to anyone’s name, the German language, German culture, or anything German, someone still responded…hmmmm….

Auf weidersein!

By Dennis

January 7, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

By Leigh January 7, 2008 7:20 PM “Thanks Dennis. These are great thoughts. But you did miss several obvious opportunities to CAPITALIZE.”

Gee, just like I forgot to mention that teachers also have children in school. However, their hands are tied by those in government who control the purse strings. But the teachers get the blame.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By V for Vendetta

January 7, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

LOL, L2T.

And just when things were going so smoothly … .

Leigh must have been abused by an English teacher at some point. How unfortunate!

By dave

January 7, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this

ironmaiden you are the greatest. And I really mean that !!!!!!

By Jeff

January 8, 2008 5:17 AM | Link to this

I just can’t resist pointing out that someone is being antagonizing and for once it isn’t myself, jim d, Lee, or some combination of the three!

:P

Good mornin’ y’all!

By WFC

January 8, 2008 6:38 AM | Link to this

The aspect of teaching contracts that would never fly “in the real world” is the fact that the teachers’ duties are spelled out in detail but the Boards of Ed duties are notoriously vague. For example, for the last 15 years or so in Fulton County, our contracts did NOT include our salaries. The contract said something like: “at a salary to be determined by the Board of Education.” Yeah, that’s a real contract!

By JustMe

January 8, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

Regarding teaching contracts….

They are complete bunk. Their only true purpose is to hold an employee over an academic year under the threat of losing their State teaching certificate. It does nothing for the employee, but only protects the employer.

In the ‘real’ world, such a contract would be laughed at.

This is similar to the teaching ‘labor unions’ such as PACE, GAGE, MACE, or whatever. They have very little power under GA State law to really do anything for an employee. The only real benefit to any of them is legal insurance, which an employee can get on their own any way.

By Joy in Teaching

January 8, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

Our letter of intent for next year had to be returned by December 14th.

It doesn’t bode well when the BOE is trying to hire for the next school year when this school year isn’t even halway completed.

By Joy in Teaching

January 8, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this

Just a thought…

I’ve discovered that the majority of teachers are not familiar with educational laws or with laws that protect them as teachers. In 20 years of teaching, I’ve taken endless methodology and content courses, but I’ve never had the opportunity to take one in school law which tend to be offered to those who have ambitions to be administrative types.

By JustMe

January 8, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

Joy -

I think that you have hit on something. IMHO, every teacher should take education law - it should be part of the requirement to become certified. Too many teachers really don’t know their rights. I only know of some of them because I have a sister that is an administrator. And, she has helped me at times a great deal!

I know of administrators that use the fact that teachers DON’T know their rights to their advantage - thus abusing the teacher(s).

By posterchild

January 8, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

I Teach Media:

I am working on becoming a Media Specialist. I’d love to chat with you sometime!

By Todd

January 8, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Well, there are many jobs that pay just as teachers are paid. I am in the reserves and a teacher, so I know at least one other. In the Army, we are paid by rank and years in. As a teacher, I am paid the same way. By rank (education level reached, i.e, T-4 through T-7) and by years in.

So are teacher salaries screwed up? I think so. By by arguing that, you must argue that military pay is screwed up when you pay an Army infantry major the same as you pay an Army quartermaster major.

By Jeff

January 8, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Todd:

Without that quartermaster, the infantryman doesn’t have supplies to do his job.

I don’t know your rank or MOS, but surely you haven’t been schooled in classic combat doctrine. Otherwise you would know that the single best way to defeat an army - particularly an army of superior strength - is to cut their supply lines.

By Clark

January 8, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Kinda like polishing the brass on the Titanic.

Maybe the wealthy elite of the 17 & 18 centuries were correct.

Education should be a privledge, not a right.

By Vet Teacher

January 8, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Jeff, As a 3rd year teacher and 20 year vet MOS 11B4XV retired 2000 how does one “get schooled” in classic combat doctrine? I think what Todd was tring to say was that all jobs or MOSs in the army gwt the same pay based on rank and years in service. Not to get into a whose job is harder arguement but take it from me, combat arms ecspecially the infantry is much more demanding and stressful then any logistics MOS would be.

By Jeff

January 8, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Vet:

At least a combat arms soldier is trained to fight.

That quartermaster AINT. So when HE gets attacked, I’m thinking the stress is FAR worse on him than the guy that is trained to respond to an attack…

As far as learning classic combat doctrine: I’m pretty sure it is taught at the various service academies, almost absolutely certain the basics of it are taught in the various OCS programs (hence my comment about not knowing his rank), and heck, even a CIVILIAN can learn classic combat doctrine simply by being an avid student of history! (Doesn’t hurt that one of my primary interests in history has always been military history… I’m not one of the guys that is interested in the history of farming, for example!)

By Vet

January 8, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Jeff All Soldiers and Marines are trained to fight; its called basic training. After that you train for whatever your job is going to be. For a grunt, marine or army, its another 2 months training.

By Edu2

January 8, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this

I seldom post, preferring instead to lurk and learn, but I must make a simple observation: Leigh is a troll. Don’t fall for his/her/its calculated remarks. Ignore [it] and maybe it’ll go away.

As for the contract discussion, I am open to merit-based, multi-tiered, scaled contracts. This one-size-fits-all contract system is ridiculously unfair to effective teachers as well as to ineffective ones. Why should my pay be the same as Joe Blow down the hall who uses every possible sick day, breaks all the rules, and hands out As like candy, when I’m teaching rigorous honors classes, advising several extracurricular groups, bringing in grant money, and implementing new programs? Should we be paid the same because we have the same education level and number of years in the system? Of course not. How ridiculous. It doesn’t work that way in the corporate world. (I worked in corporate America for 14 years before turning to education.) I want to be compensated for what I do, for what I bring to the table, as it were, not for merely putting in my time.

I’m all for change. Bring it on.

By the way, our letters of intent are due tomorrow. To the poster who suggested that earlier contract signing dates are helpful for planning purposes, I say they’re helpful if you’re planning to stay in the same system. If not, it locks you into a contract before other systems are ready to hire. If you want to jump ship, you have to do so without a life jacket, while hoping there’s a vacancy in your field.