Get Schooled

By thomas

December 28, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

It’s funny. The media and conservatives for the past twenty years have taken every opportunity they could to smear public education, teachers, and schools. This business about “troubled teachers” is just much to do about nothing. These are simply the most egregious offenders who could not make a deal with the school system. There are far more horrid examples of lousy teachers out there whose name is not on any database. Many of these people have never been disciplined by an official state educational authority. Most of the lousiest teachers are allowed to leave at the end of the school year, retire, or eke out an existence at the worst schools in the system.

By catlady

December 28, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

Many become coaches, and move on to another system.

By catlady

December 28, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Now could we have one called “Tracking Troubled Students”? ‘Cause I can assure you, there is more danger in the troubled students that are shifted from school to school and system to system than in the troubled teacher set. Funny thing is, teachers are not notified that they are trying to teach a student who has been involved in violence, etc. at a former school. So, could we get a database on the students?? And make it assessible on the internet? And be sure its existence is published in all the papers?

By jdaniel

December 28, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

Why not make public troubled doctors?Seems they can and do often cause a lot more damage to the population than a troubled teacher. The AMA is a lot more powerful than any teacher union or organization and protects its doctors at almost any cost.

By Lee

December 28, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Cry me a handful. You can go to the Ga Secretary of State’s web page and search any number of professional licenses. I searched my name in the Accountancy section and it gave me my full name and address and if I had any disciplinary actions taken against me, it would have provided that history as well.

A CPA doesn’t have children under his/her care and custody for eight hours per day, but my information is out there for anyone to see. Teachers cry foul when their info is made public. Hmmmmm….

By Biff

December 28, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this

Lee, your information shouldn’t be out there either.

By Karen Parker

December 28, 2007 9:10 PM | Link to this

My criticism of NCLB has been that individual teachers are not accountable. A teacher has to basically assault a student (physically or sexually) before they are terminated. I question whether education employees are even randomly drug tested. Teachers should be held to the highest standard possible given they are accountable for children and given unlimited access to them. Given they are role models, I’d like to know they haven’t stolen anything, either; but I had a superintendent and HR director almost verbatim tell me that our church’s preschool director probably would not have been barred from employment with the Polk County school system as a parapro even if her felonious theft had been reported. That was great news!

By Lee

December 29, 2007 1:08 AM | Link to this

Sorry Biff, but I disagree.

Like I said, you can go to the Ga Secretary of State website and pull up information on 47 different professions such as Accountants, Cosmetologists, Dentists, Electricians, Contractors, Optomotrists, Pharmacists, Plumbers, Used Car Dealers and Vetinarians.

I then went to the Ga Professional Standards Commission website and tried to find out information about a teacher who is with my child 7-8 hours per day.

Nothing, nada, not a damn thing.

So, ask yourself why there is a cloak of secrecy about teachers. I think we parents have a right to obtain this information about someone who is in direct contact with our children on a daily basis.

I agree with Thomas in that there are many violations of teacher ethics that go unreported or the schools simply do not renew a contract or allow the teacher to quit/retire rather than go against their certificate.

A common scenario is that a complaint is made against a teacher and the PSC allows the school system to “investigate” and report their findings back to the PSC.

For all their talk about ethics and professional standards, the PSC is a paper tiger.

By SET

December 29, 2007 2:21 AM | Link to this

Much ado about nothing. Criminal and Violent students are far more dangerous to staff and students and no one seems to care that all their scary information is made a state secret. Cat Lady is right.

As far as anyone spreading misinformation about teachers - around here (CA) teachers would have their lawyers and private investigators posing as prospective employers recording statements made about their client. They wouldn’t hesitate to sue is someone is spreading false or misleading info or even true info that is protected by CA’s higher than national privacy laws.

As time goes on former employers learn the hard way to be judicious in mouthing off about a former worker. Our juries love to issue large awards against institutional defendants and their officer’s personally.

By WFC

December 29, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

As usual, there are two sides to every story. Sure, there are true “teacher-predators” who abuse students and deserve to be in prison. But, for every one of those there are ten teachers who are run out of the profession for political or personal reasons. For example, a child has a 54% average in a class but her parents are “well-connected” downtown. It’s a simple matter of dredging up every criticism ever made against the teacher and instituting a “star chamber” hearing in which the teacher has no rights and “the system” has all the power.

Now, what happened? The teacher belatedly acquired a good lawyer and the school system’s “case” magically disintegrated. Three “witnesses” openly admitted that they had been badgered into their “testimony” by the school system “investigator” and refused to testify in any school system hearing, leaving only the poor 54% “student” as a witness. The school system realized that their “evidence” would never hold up in a fair court of law as opposed to their own rigged hearing. They caved and the teacher was allowed to retire as he was planning to do anyway.

What’s the point? Politics. The school system was dealing with two cases at Alpharetta HS in which teachers had actual sex with students. The system looked bad and needed to show how “tough” it was. They decided that the teacher whose only crime was telling bad jokes was an easy mark in their campaign to convince the public that they were “on the job.”

Reality can be confusing.

By L.King

December 29, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

I do not agree that minor ethnic violations should not be recorded like defaulting on a student loan or minor traffic violations. As a teacher I think it should be a list for serious violators who have abused children or committed serious crimes. I also think we should be tested for drugs because those teachers do not need to be teaching. But we have to be careful not have all of our personal business that everyone can look up and that includes all professions, not just teachers.

By Larry

December 29, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

What we need is a nationwide effort to make child molestation a crime. That way, instead of relying on voluntary reporting, a criminal background check would identify known sexual predators. This method seems to work pretty well for everyone else on the planet.

I’m starting to have nightmares about calling 911 and hearing Alvin’s voice on the other end. I wake up in a sweat with mental images of an unarmed MKM leading a SWAT team through a crime scene littered with gunshot victims, muttering “that’s nice.”

It is now clear why the girls at Hooters never ask me if I want anything else, but if I NEED another drink. They have a much clearer understanding of reality than the public at large.

Incidentally, Bridget et al, the list published by the source double-crossing scum at the Herald-Tribune includes people who did nothing wrong. Initial allegations were proven false not in some kangaroo court by preponderance of evidence, but in a court of law beyond any reasonable doubt - and don’t let Walker tell you otherwise.

The reprehensible, immoral and largely un-criticized decision by the Herald-Tribune to publish information acquired in confidence is yet another example of the most prominent problem faced by today’s kids.

They lack decent adult role models.

By Biff

December 29, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Lee, I’m not doubting that you can go and find that information. My point was that information that can compromise someone’s identity should not be publicly available. I assume you know about identity theft.

And if you have concerns about a teacher, you need to raise them with the district. They are the ones who are responsible for doing background checks, getting fingerprints (yes, that is done), etc.

By Jeff

December 29, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

A) As has been pointed out, many people’s careers have been RUINED over false allegations. Particularly as a male teacher, you walk on egg shells at all times because you KNOW that all a student has to do is get mad at you and run their mouth to the right person and your career can be SHATTERED - without you even even THINKING anything wrong, muchless actually DOING anything wrong.

B) NO ONE has ANY right to put out a person’s name and address online without their consent unless they have been PROVEN guilty in a Court of Law for certain very specific crimes. Alleged misconduct is just that - ALLEGED. Until guilt has been PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt, the accused is INNOCENT, and the matter is no one’s business outside of the two partied involved, their lawyers, and the court.

By catlady

December 29, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this

I have seen 3 teachers (2 males, 1 female) who had their careers ruined by specious allegations (students on vendetti) that were poorly handled by administrators. What is more, the students making the allegations were never disciplined! Things like that make many teachers very, very cautious.

I think publishing the list approaches, at the very least, libel for anyone not convicted of the offences.

School systems need to make careful choices. They are the ones responsible, however, for those choices. They need to be honest with each other about these issues, IF THEY ARE FOUND TO BE TRUE.

True story: In Alabama, 40 or so years ago, homosexuals were required to register with the state. The state proudly proclaimed that there were no homosexuals in Alabama, since none had registered! Not sure how that applies here, but I think it is interesting to look at how things have changed over the years.

By Lee

December 29, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

Most of us already have name and address information widely distributed. Phone books, property tax rolls, voter registration, etc. Need I go on?

I just find it ironic that I can look up disciplinary actions against a plumber or a barber, but the school system says “trust us.”

Sorry, I don’t.

By catlady

December 29, 2007 7:00 PM | Link to this

Lee, some of your mistrust is well founded. Schools routinely pass among themselves teachers that have problems of one kind or another, some of them occasionally serious. Because systems don’t have their act together (not enough documentation or whatever) or because they are afraid of lawsuits by the teachers, they don’t let the next system know. They give good recommendations. It happens within systems as well. We have a teacher at our school this year who came highly recommended by the school just down the road. Problem is, they wanted to get rid of her because she is a fruitcake! But rather than document, etc, they have passed her on to us. This happens frequently. Our principal will be hard pressed to get rid of her, due to several years of those high recommendations from her former schools.

With administrators, those not doing well are frequently moved on (with high recommendations) or kicked upstairs to the central office, where they screw up even more. Eventually they retire.

However, until a conviction or admission of guilt happens, allegations of misconduct in any field should be kept private, not displayed on the Internet, IMHO.

By Biff

December 29, 2007 8:20 PM | Link to this

How about date of birth, Lee? That was exposed by the FL newspaper. That is one of the cornerstones of identity theft. I’ve known several people who have suffered through that. Consider yourself lucky.

By dondon

December 30, 2007 8:06 AM | Link to this

Sex offenders needs to be kept away from kids, but being a lousy teacher is not a crime. If a teacher commited a crime then consider them posted, but not for stupid stuff.

By Lee

December 30, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Good grief, this list only posted disciplinary actions taken against a teacher’s CERTIFICATE. To get to that point, there was an entire review process that had to have taken place.

Having worked in an audit group that conducts investigations, I can tell you that you would be amazed at the amount of information available to the public - especially if you subscribe to an online service which searches public databases.

The only piece of personal information that should not be posted is a Social Security Number. Everything else is fair game.

As a side note, a lot of the privacy laws and regulations have made it harder for law enforcement to investigate identity theft cases. In years past, a simple phone call or letter from a detective requesting information was sufficient. Nowadays, most companies require a subpoena in order to release information to the police.

Good intentions having unintended consequences.

By Biff

December 30, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Lee, you’re still not getting it. Nobody is debating whether the information is out there. We know it is, so you don’t need to keep reminding us of that. The people who steal the identity of others know it as well. These databases you speak of are used for ruining peoples’ lives. The fact that you are okay with it is part of the problem. People think nothing will happen to them. I hope you never have your identity stolen.

By Lee

December 30, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Biff, you keep bringing up identity theft as the reason you don’t want this list published. I merely keep bringing up the fact that your information is already out there. Hell, you write checks don’t you? You would be surprised what someone can do with your checking account number and routing number, both of which are listed on the bottom of the check.

Personally, I think that a teacher’s performance appraisal should be disclosable information to parents.

Sunshine is a great disinfectant.

By Biff

December 30, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Lee, I don’t write checks anymore. I pay all my bills electronically, which is much safer. The reasons you mentioned are why I don’t write them. I’m glad you admit that it is not difficult to be a victim of identity theft.

And the either the state legislature or your local school board makes policy which determines what you can see about a teacher in GA. If you dislike their policies, then you have the right to complain to them and vote against them.

By JustMe

December 31, 2007 4:17 AM | Link to this

I am very torn on this issue….

On one hand: these are children and they should be protected.

On the other hand: adults deserve their privacy. What other profession does this sort of thing? Is there a published list of doctors that have had their licenses reviewed/revoked? How about lawyers? I would bet not. In addition, there is already a teacher shortage.

In any case, nothing should ever be ‘published’ any where unless there is definite guilt found.

IMHO, this is another reason why GA needs a strong, real labor union - to protect the rights of teachers.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 8:15 AM | Link to this

JM,

I think we agree in part on this one.

My only major concerns are the loop holes in many states laws that allow misconduct cases of teachers to go unpunished allowing teachers to continue being in the classroom, to the possible detriment of the students.

There was an AP article back in the fall that touched on how loopholes in the laws keep teacher misconduct secret.

I’m not saying we should crucify teachers due to unfounded alligations, but I do believe we could do more in some cases to better assure the safety and well being of students.

All too often the records will only record “Teacher misconduct” as a reason for dismisal, not report the seriousness of the offense and never go to a court of law. Often times there is no conviction, or if so a plea of no contest will allow a teacher to return to the classroom in another school district. Note also that an out of court settlement will often keep the teacher from being convicted in a court of law. Hence no conviction and the teachers just moves to another area. We definetly need to close some of these loopholes.

Oh yeah—And Happy New Year!

By jim d

December 31, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

JM,

Let me point out that yes other professions do publish lists. Several states actually publish a list of licensed contractors that have been charged with code violations.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

Jim:

Again:

If the person in question is PROVEN guilty in a Court of Law for certain very specific crimes, by all means do whatever you want to them. The more publicly draconian, the less chance of someone else doing it.

HOWEVER, if the above condition is NOT met - for ANY reason - as far as I am concerned it never happened and it is NOT the public’s business.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Yeah Jeff, you would feel that way.

a little reading

Here’s a bit more you might disagree with

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

Jim:

Again:

2500 incidents NATION WIDE. There are over 100K teachers in GA ALONE.

We discussed this at one point previously, and I remember estimating - based on GA’s population/teacher ratio and using that same ratio across other states’ populations from Wikipedia - that there were something like 10-15 MILLION teachers nation wide.

Even at 5 million teachers, 2500 incidents - counting every incident as from a unique teacher, which is not always the case - equates to 0.05% of teachers.

Even using the AP’s number of 3 million, you’re looking at 0.083%. And this assumes three MAJOR things that more than likely are not true: 1) That every one of the 2500 incidents was with a unique teacher, B) That they all happened in a single year and C) That over the course of 5 yrs there were a COMBINED 3 million teachers.

Again, the story doesn’t hold water.

Just like it didn’t when we discussed it in October.

And further note what I’ve said all along: If you can get a CONVICTION in a COURT OF LAW, feel free to do whatever. Even though I do feel that the occassional innocent man is convicted and that many times - particularly in the sex/ child abuse areas - laws are too vaguely defined, I generally trust the Court system.

Heck, I trust the Court system FAR more than I do the Kangaroo system that is educational politics.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

I give up Jeff,

If you see nothing wrong with these numbers then you are hopeless and I can only pray you never return to a classroom.

A 2004 report prepared for the U.S. Department of Education found, in many cases, that school leaders often failed to turn over cases to authorities.

The report prepared by Charol Shakeshaft, a professor at Hofstra University in Huntington, N.Y., examined scores of studies in the document titled “Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature.”

One revealed that in 225 cases of admitted sexual abuse by educators in New York, no teacher was reported to authorities and only 1 percent lost their licenses.

Of those who received a negative consequence, 15 percent were fired or not rehired, and 20 percent got a formal reprimand or suspension. Another 25 percent faced basically no consequences for their actions and nearly 39 percent left the district with positive recommendations and/or retirement packages in place.

“The studies, which include documentation of the consequences of educator sexual misconduct, primarily focus on what happens after allegations are made. Most document the ways in which schools and districts fail to remove abusers from the classroom,”

Personally I find this appalling and quite unacceptable.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

jim:

At least I am being consistent in my support of the Constitution, the Rule of Law, and Individual Rights.

You are trying to strip people of their Constitutional Rights, even though you come down just as hard in SUPPORT of those very same rights in regards to other issues.

I see you’ve been drinking the water again, my friend.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Indeed Jeff, you consistantly ignore a persons right to be safe in their person just because they are young.

Tell me this my friend—exactly which part of this didn’t you grasp?

in 225 cases of admitted sexual abuse by educators in New York, no teacher was reported to authorities and only 1 percent lost their licenses.

So in your mind, since they admitted the incident, thus avoiding prosecution and conviction, it is ok?

Man you need to get some help.

Let me ask you this.— If and when you and your wife are blessed with children, and said offspring are female. Were anyone to molest them, do you think you would be ok with nothing being done? Personally after reading many of your previous blog entries, I don’t think so. Matter of fact I doubt seriously if they’d ever find the body.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

Do you know if Lancaster risks losing his teaching certificate? or does his resignation protect it, even if convicted?

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

jim:

Rest assured, if someone does something to my kid, it will be kept between the two of us. I won’t let it go public.

But I’m still going to let the courts get the first crack at them. If the courts prove them innocent, I will begin looking in other areas for the perp - and looking at my child to make sure there WAS a perp.

Now, if the courts get it wrong, and I’m faced with a Double Jeopardy situation… I’m going to support my own Constitutional Rights and plead the 5th on this one.

BTW: In the case of the teachers admitting it: Prosecutors LOVE confessions. Makes the trial that much smoother. If the school system KNOWS the person did it - whether this knowledge comes due to an investigation or by confession - the school system has the DUTY to see the prosecution through in the courts.

That is the ONLY acceptable way to ‘get tougher’ on these situations. FORCE the School System to turn over data to the local DA. The DA then prosecutes in the Courts, and the Court notifies any applicable liscencing agencies upon conviction.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

The question was; “shouldn’t more be done?” My response was, and is a resounding YES!

You are the one my friend that said, and I quote “if the above condition is NOT met - for ANY reason - as far as I am concerned it never happened”

Glad to know, at least, if it were child you wouldn’t feel that way.

By Lee

December 31, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

After reading all the previous posts, it seems to me that the real culprit in all this mess is that school administrators have long ago abdicated their responsibility in ferreting out the screwballs and the scumbags in the teaching profession who would do our children harm.

And not just the sexual predators. I’m also talking about the abusive teachers, the not-worth-a-spit teacher, the teacher who just goes through the motions on a daily basis.

I have posted on many occasions that one of my pet peeves is lack of effective performance management by school administration. If you have a poor performing employee, you must decide whether they are salvagable and if so, work with them to bring them up to speed. If not, you’ve got to get them out of the organization.

One of the reasons my hometown’s middle school is so bad is that for years, we had a high school principal who was very “old school.” He didn’t put up with any nonsense - from the staff or the students. Teachers who couldn’t cut it were put on the road — only to find their way to our middle school. Hence, the problem with our middle school.

Unfortunately, he retired several years ago and I see the high school starting to degenerate.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

Lee,

I agree, the system is set up to protect these predators. These policies must change.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

jim:

There is a difference between knowing what a teacher did (or did not do) to YOUR child vs knowing what a teacher did (or did not do) to MY child, and that difference is where the boundary line between my stances lies.

You see, in the case of YOUR child, I am the ‘general public’. And my stance stands: Until conviction, I don’t need to know.

In the case of MY child, YOU are the ‘general public’. I am one of the parties (legally) involved. It is my right, indeed my responsibility, to make sure that the truth comes out in a court of law. What happens is none of YOUR concern until a judgement is rendered and it is GUILTY.

In EITHER case, I hold that the school systems need to be FORCED to turn over any evidence (pointing towards either guilt or innocence) gathered in its own internal investigation to the local DA and that the local DA needs to do their job. (That job being to present evidence to a grand jury and if the grand jury returns an indictment of guilt to prosecute the case with all zeal and haste.)

What CURRENTLY happens is that school systems do NOT do this and allow the teachers to get off scot free OR (in the case of innocence) allow the teacher’s good reputation to be SHATTERED by an ALLEGATION.

Guilty or Innocent, put it before the Courts. That is why we have them. Kangaroo Courts meting out discipline outside the Constitutionally-proscribed Court System should be ruled illegal, their proceedings dismissed, and all who run them should be summarily jailed.

By Bridget Gutierrez

December 31, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

jim d: Good question. I believe the school system is obligated to report him to the PSC, regardless of his resignation.

By Lee

December 31, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

Jeff, there are a multitude of things that should get a teacher fired that would not be considered criminal. And yes, ANYTHING that goes on in a classroom potentially affects my child and as such, I think I have a right to view the information and determine for myself if further action is warranted.

In case you forgot, PUBLIC schools means that you work for the taxpaying PUBLIC and as a result, the PUBLIC has greater access to information. Don’t like it, go to work for a PRIVATE employer.

Of course, I guess if I got drummed out of a teaching job mid-year I would want my personnel file sealed as well.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Lee:

Your libelous comments are getting old. You sound like a broken record already.

As I have stated MANY times, I was NOT ‘drummed out’. I served my full contract and decided - on my own - to move on.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Lee:

You’re wrong. Dead wrong.

If the teacher has not committed a crime against a student, they have not done anything to a student that would warrant dismissal. Now, if they are late, insubordinate, etc, that falls under normal employer rights. But to remove for actions regarding a student, it MUST be criminal to warrant dismissal. And even then, it must go through the courts and have the courts return a guilty verdict before said employee can be dismissed - or even put on leave-without-pay.

Secondly, in regards to your so-called ‘rights’ as the general public:

Quite honestly, my place of employment does not matter one iota. If it isn’t right for a private business to do it, it isn’t right for the government to do it.

Again, if guilt is not PROVEN IN A COURT OF LAW, the general public does NOT have the right to access ANY records

By jim d

December 31, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Ok Bridget,

So lets just say for some ungodly reason the PSC fails to find a reason to permanently pull his teaching certificate and he is subsequently convicted and serves time. Or that they do find reason to suspend it for a period of time that runs concurrently with any sentence he might get for a conviction.

He would then be able to go to any other system and all that might show up would be a report that showed he resigned and that the PSC pulled his certificate for some “MISCONDUCT”.

Indeed there must be more done to keep sex offenders out of our schools.

By jim d

December 31, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I agree—again to a point.

That point being that unless the case is turned over or reported by the school it is rather difficult to gain a conviction. In that case I do believe the public has a right to know that an accusation was made, regardless of the outcomes.

I also believe that when one accepts a publicly paid for position—-be it a teacher or a garbage collector—- that these public employees surrender a portion of their privacy.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

jim:

Why is a woman’s right to murder one of our most innocent citizens considered ‘private’, and yet an adult must surrender their rights to even face their accuser when they take certain jobs?

Again, I FULLY support forcing the School System to turn over to the local DA any evidence gathered in any investigation they do.

What I CANNOT support is considering PRIVATE information public BEFORE a conviction in a court of law.

You do NOT have the right to know someone was ACCUSED of something.

IF that person is CONVICTED and it somehow affects you or something you are legally responsible for (anything from your dog to your wife), THEN I could support letting YOU - but not the unaffected public - know.

Do you know how much evidence it legally takes to ACCUSE someone of ANYTHING?

Answer: NONE. I could right now accuse you, jim d, of murdering Benazir Bhutto. I have ZERO evidence, and I’m quite sure you have ample evidence to prove your innocense. But I could still make the ACCUSATION.

According to what you are saying, your name should now be published in every newspaper in the world as the killer of Benazir Bhutto.

You haven’t been PROVEN GUILTY of ANYTHING, and yet now the world knows you as a murderer of a very prominent political figure. Even though there was NO POSSIBLE WAY you did it.

Still think your statements make sense?

By Lee

December 31, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff, the bottom line is this:

You can either allow public disclosure of certain information and allow the facts to speak for themselves, or

you can hide and cover up and allow the unofficial grapevine to flourish.

I am coming from the perspective of a parent who has filed a complaint against a teacher and then witnessed the system go into a cya mode.

Like I said earlier, sunshine is a great disinfectant.

By Are you sure?

December 31, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

But to remove for actions regarding a student, it MUST be criminal to warrant dismissal. And even then, it must go through the courts and have the courts return a guilty verdict before said employee can be dismissed - or even put on leave-without-pay.

Jeff…just wondering. Where did you get this information?

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

AYS:

That is what I’m saying SHOULD happen.

Unfortunately, this is not currently the case.

By Lee

December 31, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

Hahahaha. Nice backtrack there Jeff.

AYS, as to where Jeff gets his info, nobody knows.

However, I suspect a misuse of mushrooms might be one source.

Alice in Wonderland and all that.

By luvs2teach

December 31, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Although I generally lean towards a right to privacy stance, I also agree with the statement that “your rights end where mine begin.” In the case of my money, my health or my child’s education and well-being, that line is often enforced by professional certification, be it medical, judicial, financial, or educational. The state or other governing/issuing bodies are saying that they are enforcing certain standards for the given profession, whether it’s in preparation for or conduct during employment.

Therefore, I think that the governing bodies have, not just a right, but an obligation to make available pertinent information concerning certification or licensing problems - key word being pertinent.

For example, in the case of a doctor or lawyer, it would be proven malpractice; a CPA, proven financial mismanagement, or a teacher, proven serious misconduct. What ever information is available should be explicit as to the charge, as well as the outcome. I don’t think that personal information, such as birth dates or addresses should be available and I don’t think that it should be published in a newspaper - a searchable database is sufficient.

I know we’ve been talking about bad teachers being shuffled around, but that type of CYA cover-up is not exclusive to education - you see it with bad doctors and lawyers as well - read a year’s worth of Reader’s Digest’s and I guarantee you’ll see at least one or two stories. I think compassion (at best) or fear of lawsuits (at worst) override people’s common sense and good judgement.

Like I learned on The Brady Bunch - caveat emptor!

Happy New Year!

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Lee:

Again, the libelous comments!

I consider it a STRONG point of honor that the only non-doctor prescribed drugs to ever enter my body are caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol. (Though I also admit to far too much of those three!!)

Anyone that knows me can tell you that if you made that comment to my face, you’d be on the ground about a split second after it came out of your mouth. I do NOT tolerate people insinuating I’ve used drugs.

By Are you sure?

December 31, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

OK…let’s think about this. It is not illegal to flirt. However, it is unethical for a high school teacher to flirt with a student. So, while a teacher who flirts inappropriately with a student would never be found guilty of anything in a court of law, I don’t want that person - male or female - teaching children.

On the other side of the coin, I know some excellent teachers who have been accused of inappropriate conduct toward a student (no sexual contact was involved) and received warnings on their certificates that will be there for the rest of their careers - regardless of what really happened. And these folks will be on “the list.”

I do believe that we “pass the trash” way too much in education, but I also believe we have to give folks an opportunity to fix their mistakes when the issues have nothing to do with the safety of a child. I hired a young lady this year who was not renewed at her last school. She was a first year teacher and had some real problems. With a lot of guidance and mentoring, she has made great progress and will be a wonderful teacher.

Now, Jeff, I have to ask another question. I have been reading this vent for quite a while. If I remember right, you left Randolph County shortly after the first of the year last year. You have made some rather libelous statements about the superintendent there, so I am not sure how your defense against Lee’s statements holds much water.

How can you say you fulfilled your contract when you left before the end of the year? If I remember, you were allowed to resign. That doesn’t mean that you fulfilled your contract. It means you resigned so that you wouldn’t have to answer “yes” to the question of dismissal that is standard on most school employment applications.

I hate to tell you this, but your experience in the classroom does not make you an expert. Those of us who have been around almost as long as you have been alive could probably teach you a few things.

By Are you sure?

December 31, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

One more comment…the way I understand it, this database is not for folks who have been accused, but those who have been found guilty of through investigation by the PSC (or appropriate governing body).

In Georgia, if you are a HR person in a school system, there is a database in place that will allow you to see any sanctions against anyone holding a GA. certificate. You can also see what the sanctions are. So, if I choose to hire someone who defaulted on a contract, I can find out why and make my decision.

I can also find out if there was inappropriate conduct toward children. We don’t have the same information about teachers coming from other states.

This information is not made available to the general public but to registered administrators from each Ga. system.

Parents can, by law, ask to see documentation on any teacher that is used to determine if that teacher is highly qualified. Schools are supposed to have certification documentation on file. However, this will not indicate any sanctions against that teacher.

OK…that is my two cents worth for the day. Time to celebrate the new year.

Have a safe New Year’s Eve.

By Zeke

December 31, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

So who determines if something if considered flirting? I’ve seen cases where simply smiling at a student is misinterpreted as flirting.

By Lee

December 31, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

So, it sounds like we are still back to square one.

The school system says “trust us, we will police ourselves.”

Parents say “sorry, but we don’t trust you.”

Maybe if we were not inundated by a worst case scenario (ie, sexual misconduct) on a routine basis in the news, we parents might not be so skeptical.

I don’t allow any non-prescription drugs in my body…. well, except for all the nicotine, caffine, and alcohol. Don’t believe me, ah’ll whoop yore a55. LOL Jeff. You continue to amaze me.

By Are you sure?

January 1, 2008 6:50 AM | Link to this

Zeke, You are right. I would like to say that systems investigate and that rules are applied equitably, but we both know they are not. I was just trying to help Jeff to see that his idea of being found “guilty in a court of law” might not be the answer.

Lee, I can certainly understand your concern. I wish those stories never happened. But for every one of those, there are dozens and dozens of dedicated teachers who work hard to do what needs to be done.

I don’t think there is an easy answer. However, I do think some systems could do a better job of helping to weed out those who need to find another career.

By Jeff

January 1, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

AYS:

The end date on my contract was Feb 2, 2007. If you don’t believe me, you can ask Lisa B and maybe Old School, as I am quite sure I asked them about it privately.

I know that is weird, which is why I asked them about it.

That date also happens to be exactly one month after Bobby Jenkins’ daughter graduated college with an education degree.

When I decided not to come back after my contract was up, she was my replacement.

Every single thing I have said about Bobby Jenkins is proven by the facts of the events between April 2006 and February 2007.

Would it hold up in a court of law? Probably not. The case is highly circumstantial, and I’ll give Jenkins enough credit to say that he is smart enough to not document anything that would actually come back to bite him in the tail.

But there IS (or was) an ongoing investigation by the local DA into Jenkins’ corrupt business practices.

I also find it HIGHLY ironic (and this is also supported by the facts) that of about 10 white teachers that were hired at the time I was, plus a couple that were already in the system, NINE have moved on.

I don’t make libelous comments about Jenkins. I tell honestly of my hatred of the man and his actions towards me. Everything I say about my time at Randolph can be supported by the facts, some of those facts I still carry on my body in the form of scars.

By Lee

January 1, 2008 8:09 AM | Link to this

AYS, you are correct in that there are a lot more good, dedicated teachers than there are “rotten apples.” I would surmise that they are no different than any other profession in that the competence level follows a normal distribution.

However, if you’ve ever had the misfortune of having your child placed in a classroom with an incompetent or abusive teacher, get ready for the fight of your life.

Been there, done that. Got to the point where we had to decide to get a lawyer and continue to fight the system or put my daughter in private school. We chose the latter.

Yes, I think school systems can do a better job of performance management and weed out those who need to find a new career. I also think the system sets teachers up for failure.

By Are you sure?

January 1, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am not doubting your word, but with the way you spin a story, you should get into politics. I remember the stories that you shared about Randolph County and it sure sounded like you thought you were being forced out at the time. Maybe hindsight has given you a different perspective on the situation.

Bottom line, if you signed a contract with a February 2 end date, you should have known from the beginning that you could be leaving in February. I don’t remember that being mentioned when you were talking about your problems with students, parents, and administrators. But maybe I missed it.

Lee, I hate that you had that experience. I wish there was some magic way to get rid of all the bad ones. As a mother, I understand the need to do whatever it takes to take care of your kid!

I always ask myself this question: Would I want this teacher to teach my own child. If the answer is “no,” then I have a responsibility to either help them become better or get them out. The sad thing is that for every horrible story of sexual misconduct that makes the paper, there is at least one teacher, that while they would never engage in immoral behavior, are doing a different kind of harm to many more children. Those are the kind you seem to be talking about - the ineffective, ill-prepared, incompetent folks who believe teaching is an easy profession. Unfortunately, these teachers would never be included in a database! This is the true “pass the trash” crowd.

By Facts Remain

January 2, 2008 7:43 AM | Link to this

R U Sure,

Ah yes what a difference time makes in the minds of some.

By Jeff

December 31, 2007 1:31 PM

“As I have stated MANY times, I was NOT ‘drummed out”

From the archives—- January 17, 2007 06:52 PM

“The Superintendent has asked for my resignation, and put me on three days administrative leave”

By Jeff

January 2, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this

Facts Remain:

He never got it though. Instead, I told him to his face that I would serve my remaining contract.

Again: I was NOT ‘drummed out’. Bobby Jenkins did everything he could to make way for his daughter taking my job, but in the end I was too stubborn to allow it. The ONLY reason his daughter had my job on Feb 6 is because he had a backup plan from the beginning.

Bobby Jenkins KNEW he could not ‘drum me out’. He had done everything he legally could - and quite a few things he legally could not do - but in the end, it was only his backup plan that succeeded.

The FACT that I have scars on my body that the students responsible for were NOT punished and the FACT that 9 of 10 (literally. there were only 10 white teachers in the system)white teachers in that system did not return the next year both speak VOLUMES about the man that Bobby Jenkins is.

By jim d

January 2, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Happy new year, Jeff. Hope you and Mrs. Jeff had a safe and joyous holiday.

Just a question of curiosity.

Any idea why your resignation would have been asked for just two weeks before your contract would expire?

I find that rather pointless and even you must admit that it gives an appearance of being drummed out.

Would the contract have automatically renewed?

By wwww

January 2, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

jim d:

No, as a new teacher in a county, your principal (or I guess in this case the Superintendent?) has the option to not renew a contract the first three years you are new to that system. So, you can’t necessarily get “fired”, but instead they can not renew your contract and not give you a reason. In this case, I believe that they don’t have to jump through any hoops and drown in documentation to get rid of you. They just simply don’t renew your contract. I’m not sure if this is the case in Randolph county; however, I’m fairly certain this is a state rule. So why they would’ve asked for Jeff’s resignation 2 weeks before his contract expired doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, because they could’ve just not renewed it. Then again, there are a lot of things that don’t make any sense going on every day in public school.

By jim d

January 2, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Thanks wwww,

It does make sense that a school system might only offer a contract for one semester to a new hire to assure a fit.

You are right though that requesting a resignation doesn’t make sense in Jeff’s case when the system held the option of simply not renewing within such a short period. Which would appear to make the claim that moving on was totally his choice, something less than 100% accurate.

By Tony

January 2, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

jim d, there are a number of reasons a person may be given a shorter-termed contract. The reasons usually have to do with the wait time for fingerprinting and/or certification issues. School systems may also enter into short term contracts with teachers to cover specific time periods - such as teaching a one-semester specialty course. There are other reasons, too.

Regarding non-renewal of a contract, there are specific requirements a school system must follow regarding notification to the teacher involved. I’m not sure how those rules apply to someone on a temporary contract or short-term contract, though.

Regarding the background checks for teachers, it is my practice to check not only the references listed on an application, but to check with others that know the candidate. When selecting teachers who will be responsible for the education of the children who walk through the schoolhouse door, the principal must be diligent to assure quality.

This database that was released by the Florida newspaper makes for juicy gossip and speculation and the newspaper’s purposes for releasing the information are very unclear. I suppose they consider it a public service. However, I think you’d find that their hits on the web-page increased tremendously when the information was released. This would be a boon to advertisers on their web-site. In Georgia, teachers are protected, by law, from having their personal information released. There may be some recourse for the teachers within Georgia who were affected by this breach.

With the influx of new teachers in this state, it would be impossible to detect all predatory people who may seek positions. It is important for parents to maintain good communication with our children and with teachers. If we begin to suspect things aren’t as they should be, a conference with administration is in order. Things like this database, fingerprinting and background checks work to give us a FALSE sense of security.

By Zoe

January 2, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

The three years/four contract rule had been in effect in Georgia for years. It was called “right to fair dismissal” NOT tenure, as so many referred to it. Basically, it said after a school system offered a fourth contract, a reason had to be provided for getting rid of a teacher. A new teacher, that hadn’t been offered that fourth contract, could be let go without reason. One of my friend’s had his contract not renewed because he was low man in the Social Studies department and the school had hired a head football coach that was, you guessed it, certified in Social Studies.

Under Gov. Barnes, “right to fair dismissal” was banished, there was no four contract rule. This was part of the reason for the backlash against him from the teachers. Various school systems have put “fair dismissal” back into board documents to make teachers feel better.

This fair dismissal doesn’t mean anything. If a school wants to get rid of a teacher, they can get rid of a teacher. Change the teacher’s schedule, move the teacher from a room to a trailer, move the teacher from a room to floating, make the teacher a collaborative teacher all day. The list goes on. The school isn’t doing anything illegal (technically) but enough to let the teacher know maybe it is time to move on. In a state with tenure (or unions), all of those actions could be challenged with grievances and probably the teacher’s complaints be validated. In Georgia, most teachers leave for another system since they can always get jobs somewhere else.

Bottom line, no need to file disciplinary measures, the school used its own methods to get the teacher out.

By jim d

January 2, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Tony,

thanks.

As for the motives for the press releasing the information? I’m not too sure it really matters if this information is available through an O/R or FOI request.

By Marc

January 3, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

Tony, the fair dismissal act was restored during Sonny’s first year in office. He learned the lesson from Roy’s defeat.

Yes, please tone down this (and all other AJC forums). I got so tired of the few forums which were a non-ending attack on personalities, one in particular. As educators, we need to keep each other informed about the laws, trends, and perhaps surprises in education.