Get Schooled

By Jeff

December 26, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

As always, my position on this is simple:

Base my pay on ONLY factors that I can control.

How a student does on a test is NOT a factor I can control.

Volume of discipline referrals is RARELY a factor I can control.

Basically anything is based on a STUDENT’s actions is RARELY something I can control.

Now, getting additional in-field degrees? Getting industry certifications that apply to what I teach? (ie, I’m not promoting English teachers getting Cisco certification) THOSE are factors that I can control.

By holdingAJCaccountable

December 26, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

Of course tying students’ scores to teachers salaries will motivate teachers; motivate them to cheat. That’s a natural consequence of tying pay to factors a teacher can’t control.

If you really want to “motivate” teachers give them the authority over their classrooms in direct proportion to the “accountability” you’re trying to impose on them.

But that would involve a real “real change;” addressing discipline, which is something that Jones herself would have to “get off her soft sofa and become uncomfortable” with, as she tries to explain how the party that advocates “rule of law” and “personal responsibility” is as spineless on discipline as the “liberal Democrats” that were in power before her.

By mindy

December 26, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

I find the whole idea of merit pay highly insulting. I am teaching with everything I have got now. I am not holding out my efforts waiting for a bribe. Sen. Jones may operate that way but I don’t. If I were to accept money for my students achievement I would have to be willing to take a cut when they don’t. I do my best all the time but the students are ultimately responsible for their own success. I shouldn’t be blamed or rewarded for what it out of my control.

By lopro

December 26, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

I’m not a teacher (but married to one!) The politicians need to realizie that these so-called standardized tests are not indicators to be valued.

Standardized tests cannot be truthfully and effectivily employed untill classroom behavior, parental involvement/responsibility, and classroom size, among other factors are equlaized among all schools andn classes. This of course is impossible.

What happened to just letting teaching teach a subject with real-world application and value to society. All we are doing is mandating these teachers teach towards a single, end result: the end of year test.

Manipulating the inputs to meet a certain output will never work. Politicians need to relaize that there are many variables of great influence in education independent of the teacher.

By just a teacher

December 26, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

In a word, no. Basing my salary on test scores would motivate me to leave the profession. I would probably stand to make considerably more money, of course, because I teach in an affluent area and personally have an excellent “pass rate” already. I would leave, demoralized and disgusted, knowing that the soul of education had finally shriveled up and died. Besides, if I was willing to w******* myself, I’d make a lot more money as a consultant.

By catlady

December 26, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

• Besides, if I was willing to w* myself, I’d make a lot more money as a consultant.*

…or, as a part time legislator getting full time benefits and retirement…..

Mandate that doctors and dentists get paid based on whether their patients get cavities or become obese. Pay legislators on the worthiness and importance of the bills they pass, or on their (lack of ) oversight on bonuses and payouts for the Ga Lottery Corp. I could go on and on…… Others can come up with their own analogies.

Give me complete control to get rid of disruptive students, have severe consequences for students who do not do homework or classwork, make it easier to get underachieving students the testing and help they need, opt out of stupid “cure de jour” dreamed up by “superiors”, fine or haul into court parents who do not do their jobs, and THEN we’ll talk about “merit” pay.

GRRRR!

By Lee

December 26, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

While a frank, honest discussion on teacher pay NEEDS to occur, it will never happen in today’s political environment. In my semi-rural county, the school system is the county’s largest employer. You’re not going to get any politician willing to buck that constituency.

The current Years of Service x Degree Level payscale does little to motivate teachers - other than to get additional degrees to boost compensation. This is why we are paying additional salaries to have PE teachers with Doctorates and Pre-K teachers with Masters.

This salary structure also ignores the market realities. Let’s face it, science and math majors have opportunities outside of teaching that other majors (Early Childhood for example) do not have. In order to lure these people away from the corporate world, you’re going to have to compensate them accordingly.

But perhaps the biggest obstacle to a merit based payscale is that it would require schools to have administrators who are competent and respected by the teachers. Too many principals are neither, IMHO.

As far as tying a teacher’s salary to test results, I think it should be ONE of many factors used to gauge teacher competence.

One thing worth considering is for parent feedback (think customer survey) to be used to evaluate teacher performance. By the same token, teacher feedback should be used to evaluate a principal’s performance.

One last thing, if I ever had an employee tell me that they would work a lot harder if only they were paid more, I would tell them to start looking for another job. I don’t need them. You should be professional enough to give 100% whether you are paid $30k or $50k.

By popcornular

December 26, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

It’s amazing to see these lousy teachers get raises year after year. Many of them can’t open their email without help, and are hopelessly behind the times. It’s time to end this all-girls club which discriminates against boys, and whose members pat each other on the butt and tell each other how smart they are. Education is not exactly the hardest degree to obtain, and the profession is rife with mediocrity, at best. Most have no real world experience whatsoever, instead hiding within the walls of an archaic educational system that stays the same despite the revolutionary changes going on around it.

By holdingAJCaccountable

December 26, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this

Well if Maureen Downey is going to hold herself “accountable” to the same standards she wants to hold teachers accountable to, then of course her next editorial will be her public resignation letter, seeing as her “test scores” (AJC subscription rates) are sinking faster than the water levels of Lake Lanier.

Of course what she’d call “excuses” for teachers (the lack of emphasis on reading, the rise in television watching, the Internet, video games, etc.) she’d call “realities” if anyone were to question her performance based on her, and the AJC’s abysmal “test scores”.

I guess those who can teach; those who can’t write editorials about it.

By thomas

December 26, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

When I read this blog entry, I almost SCREAMED!!!!!!!!!!!!

SCREAMED!!!!!

I almost screamed because the question is- “Teachers, are you motivated?” I work at one of the worst elementary schools in the state of Georgia. It is on the Needs Improvement list. There are only 35 elementary schools, out of 1277, in Georgia on the NI list. It is the WORST school I have ever worked at. Most teachers there are some of the most selfish, unmotivated, uncaring I have ever had the mispleasure to work with. They do not care not one d_ about their students and could care less if they learn a wit. All they care about is themselves and their petty wishes. By the way, this is NOT some horrible school in the ghetto. But the schools in Atlanta, Clayton, and Fulton outshine this school.

What people don’t realize is that most teachers, regardless of where they teach at, where they come from, their socioeconomic status, race, or gender, come from the bottom-feeders of the college world. Most of the people who go into teaching (myself included) went in because they wanted an easy diploma and a guaranteed check. Especially the “gurls” who make up the elementary ranks. They go into education because they can’t and are not smart and/or ambitious enough to make it in the real world. We have some real sad sacks working as teachers in this country.

Neal Boortz was right. I didn’t realize it until after I had actually worked in education as a teacher in four different schools. I consider myself a good, motivated teacher. But it took me years of work, sacifice, studying, reworking and revamping to become close to be a half decent widget worthy of being the presence of the most lowly student. Most of these teachers, unless they happen to be working in one of the top schools in Georgia, are unmotivated, semi literate “gurls” who just are in it for a paycheck and time off.

I realize that now. Unless these people are in front of a group of the “smartest” and “most prepared” (i.e. the upper middle class), there is very little motivation. They do only what they need to do and no more.

As for the degree issue, advanced degrees are bascially worthless when it comes to actually improving teacher quality. WORTHLESS. All they are good for is an extra $5,000 a year salary. So, so, so, so many ignorant, useless hacks call themselves going back to college to get a master’s degree and come out as dumb and stupid as they were going in. They still are the same mediocre teacher they were before the “degree”. Heck, the man was right. Most of these people are getting diploma mill degrees. They aren’t going to classes. It’s all “online”. The folks just dish out $10-15k, whittle away a year or 2 and call it a degree.

And the children, our future, suffer.

By luvs2teach

December 26, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this

This is a sticky, sticky topic…

First, as a science teacher with a science degree, I would love to have some bonus/incentive/pay grade increase based on my degree - the whole “market forces’ argument is definitely in my favor on that one. However, you couldn’t pay me enough to go to first grade and be responsible for teaching those kids to read - are elementary teachers really less valuable?

I think a good compromise would be to offer signing bonuses for hard-to-fill subject areas, as well as longevity bonuses to help keep them.

Second, on the automatic raises for any Master’s degrees (and up)…I wouldn’t mind seeing those modified or eliminated. I have worked to get two endorsements to my certificate, gifted and ESOL, by doing as much work, if not more, than I see some of my colleagues in their Master’s programs. I get no extra money for either of those. There are two additional endorsements that teachers can earn, Reading and Teacher Support Specialist (to be a trained mentor) - the Reading endorsement carries no extra pay, but you might get extra money for a TSS, depending on your system and whether you have a teacher-mentee or not.

Why did I choose to work on the endorsements, rather than pursue a Master’s? Because at this point in time, that was what my school needed, and that was what I wanted to work on for my professional development.

Then there is the topic of a National Board Certified teacher - most systems only pay extra if the teacher works in a needs improvement school - the process is extremely time-consuming and rigorous - easily as rigorous as many diploma mills - shouldn’t they merit a raise?

I would like to see that aspect of the pay scale changed to reward meaningful staff development, whether it’s post-grad work, endorsements, bilingual training, or National Board Certification. There is a school system in California that does something like that.

Finally, on the topic of merit pay - I wouldn’t object completely, however, I want it based on more than test scores - particularly test scores that don’t reflect the work I’ve done with a student. When you look at my 8th grade science CRCT scores, they cannot be compared properly to either the students’ scores of those I taught last year (to measure my effectiveness) nor my current students’ 7th grade scores (to see their growth).

Why, you ask? Well, if you compare my students this year to my students last year, you are looking at two entirely different groups of kids - one group may have been better prepared, more interested, what ever. It’s not a valid comparison for my effectiveness. If you look at the difference between their 7th grade and 8th grade CRCT scores, not only are you looking at two different teachers, you’re looking at two different subjects - it would be like judging the Chemistry teacher by looking at the Biology teacher’s scores. You can’t see growth.

So, sure, give me merit pay, but base it on something valid, and include my annual evaluation, extra duties, and whatever else…there is a school system in colorado that does something similar.

Two final thoughts;

One - aren’t government employees, the military, and elected officials paid on time in, too? Can we change theirs to a merit pay - you know, give the guys in IRAG $100,000 and some lame-duck senator $23,000?

Two - the educational establishment needs to change more than just how teachers are paid - they also need to change how teachers are trained - and they need to start holding students accountable, not just the teachers - that’s part of the dirty little secret I’m not seeing editorials written about - it’s not politically popular to discuss, either.

By linda

December 26, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

Still not sure why the DOE just doesn’t do what it takes to attract an appropriate applicant pool. That is to say, stop letting kids and their parents run the show so that rigor can return to classrooms. It makes absolutely no sense to believe that (most) intelligent people will pretend that the laziest students earned those A’s. (Thankfully we have a few intelligent teachers willing to put up with the nonsense.) Intelligent folks have a healthy respect for rigor, so bring that back and you’ll improve the applicant pool tremendously. When the losers in charge realize this it may be too late. I wonder at this point where a group of young teachers who are willing to truly teach will come from. College age students now are obviously unfamiliar with the concept of earning a grade. A return to taking education seriously needs to happen immediately if there is any hope of hiring capable, difficult teachers to get things back on track.

By L.King

December 26, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

I would like to see some form of pay for performance. The only problem I see is being responsible for the apathy that some students display towards test. What would be the guidelines for students who miss instructional time for absences, school activities, etc?

As a teacher, I am offended by the negative comments made about teachers on a daily basis. I would like to get paid more (just like any profession) but I am motivated because it is my job!

For the blogger that mentioned about the majority of education majors taking easy classes and that they are low performing students, please speak for yourself!

By jim d

December 27, 2007 7:55 AM | Link to this

You know I love y’all but there is a real need for all of us to become informed about some of these issues and to figure out what we do or do not support.

You might start by checking here checking the side bar for Presidential Candidate Education Platforms to get a bigger picture of what is to come.

By jim d

December 27, 2007 8:10 AM | Link to this

Yo King,

Grow some tougher skin! Negative comments surround every occupation. You think teachers have it bad? Hell try being a cop, a lawyer, a doctor or a dentist. Electricians, plumbers and even auto mechanics don’t fare much better and reporters seem to catch a lot of crap as well. So why is it that “some” teachers so often need third party recognition for doing what it is they are being paid to do, and generally claim to love doing? GET OVER IT!!

By WFC

December 27, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

Oh my! Thomas, though you make some good points, I screamed to myself when I read your blog!

I am not and never was a “bottom feeder” in college! I chose high school teaching as a profession for two reasons:

I published an article on merit pay in March 1979 in the prestious journal, Phi Delta Kappan (“Would Bear Bryant Teach in the Public Schools?”) The points I made then are just as valid today.

I’m SO tired of the “can’t make it in the real world” BS. I learned the fundamentals of real estate investment in the early 1980’s and began investing. This was on top of teaching five history classes (mostly AP) and coaching football, basketball and baseball AND starting a family. Don’t tell me that teachers are “worthless drones.” Results? I’m comfortably retired from teaching, OWN a nice home in North Fulton, OWN a Mercedes, have a great son who takes REAL classes (calculus, AP organic chemistry, Honors physics, Latin, AP US history, AP American Lit.)

I’m tired of people dogging on HS teachers.

By Joy_in_Teaching

December 27, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

I put in over 60 hours a week in my classroom. This week, I took a three days off and today I’m back to working on those darned Learning Focused lesson plans the county is making me do so that I can prove that I am teaching students.

Bleh. And to think that a few want to base my salary on what how current crop of students compare to the crop of students that I had last year.

Doesn’t even make sense, unless I have a class full of repeaters.

By L. King

December 27, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Yo Jim,

If I did not have tough skin I would have been out of teaching a long time ago. I was trying to blog about the topic. I have never been a complainer or have complained about being paid my salary.

I was stating that just like any other profession, everyone would love to get paid more money. It seems to me that people in the public think that teachers do not earn their pay. That is why I wrote my comments.

And Jim, I enjoy reading your opinions and respect them, please respect mines.

By luvs2teach

December 27, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

jim d - I’d like to add to L.King’s comment that the negative talk about teaching goes beyond “lawyer jokes” - it extends to politics and becomes public policy - it also keeps good people out of a profession looked upon as lesser (check popcornular’s post, for example).

I, for one, despite being drawn to teaching, opted to go a different route because of the negativity surrounding the profession. Unhappy in my cubicle, I took the plunge (and a substantial paycut) and never looked back. I work harder, but I’m happier. I still get annoyed at public perception, though - particularly when it becomes bad public policy like NCLB.

One of my students - probably the biggest pain in the butt I have - said that being a teacher has to be the easiest job in the world. I(quite incredulously) asked why. He said because we have the summers off. Wow. Well, I truly hope and pray he becomes a teacher - for the summer’s off - and has a classroom full of kids JUST LIKE HIM! Payback’s a B——, LOL!

By erica

December 27, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

I think that some of the school systems that are applying to become charter systems will be going to merit pay. They are mostly small city systems with schools that are similar in demographics from my understanding. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

The solution is not merit pay. It is school choice. That way, if families are not happy because there is not enough rigor… they can walk and go to a rigorous school. If they want to whine b/c their kid has too much work… they can walk and go to a school where everyone gets As for breathing.

That way, if teachers aren’t doing their job they don’t have to worry about not getting merit pay.. they will just get laid off when their school finally closes for lack of students.

That’s the way it works in the real world folks… you know… the part of the world where the government does not have a monopoly and a captive audience.

By jim d

December 27, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Yo King,

MY BAD

The unfortunate thing about blogging is that you are not face to face and are therefore unable to hear tones. I read it as whinning. Again I appologize.

L2T, Just making a point. Do you know anyone that loves the dentist? Well anyone other than the ones he supports.

See, I like many teachers. Those that do their job to the best of their ability. But I don’t like dentists regardless of good they are.

By holdingAJCaccountable

December 27, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

“Erica” has hit the nail on the head! Not merit pay but school choice. Think about it, who would be the ones deciding on who would get “merit pay”? The exact same politicians and educational bureaucrats who got us into this mess in the first place.

Of course if we base it all on “test scores” they everyone wins. Students cheat, teachers cheat, administrators cheat, parents, politicians and bureaucrats turn a blind eye because (yippee!) test scores are up!

Of course no one knows how to read, or do basic math for that matter, but isn’t that a small price to pay for “improved schools”?

By thomas

December 27, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

“Tired of people dogging high school teachers”? WFC, I am talking about ELEMENTARY teachers!!!!!!!

You see, I am an elementary teacher. Although I am not a self contained classroom teacher any more, I still teach six classes a day.

The basis of my comments stem from about 10 years of experience in education- from substitute teaching ,to college/student teaching, to teaching elementary students everyday, and even teaching summer school. I have worked in majority black schools, majority white schools, and majority Latino schools. I worked in schools made up of mostly poor and working class people to ones surrounded by $600 and $700k homes. The opinions come from actual life experience, empirical and quantitive research, and observation.

My college experience taught me that many of the people who went into the early childhood and middle grades programs were not the best and the brightest. They went in knowing just how far they had to go and how far they would be pushed. They knew what to expect in order to pass through the program and get their degree. They knew what the paycheck and the work hours would be after they got a teaching job. And many even planned on what school system they would work in after graduation. They all choose “good” schools/school systems, of course.

The reality is that not all teachers go into teaching for the altrustic motives romantically escribed to teachers. Like I said before, you are mostly likely to find the happy, motivated teachers working in the upper middle class (and usually majority white/Asian) schools. These are the schools where the students and parents are the most motivated and groomed for success. These are places where one literally has to be godawful and totally incompetent not to have success.

What I resent is people taking up a teaching job doing nothing with it. Not teaching reading. Not teaching grammar. Not teaching writing. Not teaching math. Not teaching social studies. Not teaching science. Not teaching students how to interact with each other appropriately. Not respecting students, their parents, or their culture. We are talking about people who do nothing but simply come to work everyday, walk around arrogantly, belittle and degrade students and their families. Belch and scream demands at students. Do nothing to try to teach and deliver effective lessons and then blame the student and their parents for the effects of poor instruction.

Real school change starts with the teachers, principals, and county administration who is tasked with the responsibility of teaching.

By old-db

December 27, 2007 6:19 PM | Link to this

I’m very motivated as a teacher. I make less money than most teachers. Why am I so motivated? I’m motivated because I teach in a private school where students want to learn, discipline is cherished, and work ethic is rewarded. I can fail students without worry of reprimand. In fact, I’m encouraged to fail students that don’t do their work or work up to their potential, and I would be reprimanded if I didn’t give students poor grades when they deserve it. Imagine that! I’m encouraged to write detention hours. I’m fully supported when a mother or father wants to make his kid the exception to the rules. The parent hardly ever wins. Therefore, the bad parents are powerless and end up going elsewhere. I’m held accountable for my behavior and my teaching, just as it should be. And students are held accountable for their behavior and effort. I must say, I love teaching, and I’m passionate, which is contagious.

By popcornular

December 28, 2007 12:22 AM | Link to this

Read between the lines of some of these ‘teachers’. It’s all about control.

By lopro

December 28, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

The whole “upper-middle class” concept that implies that the students are something to behold is a load of crap. I came from an upper-middle class school and my wife teaches in one in a totally different area. I can tell you that these kids from this particular demograhic area are quite possibly the worst due to lack of motivation, lack of parental involvment for students and/or teachers, lack of dicipline, and the total apathy instilled in them from a previous “me” generation that has further encouraged the new “super me” generation. Their heads are so far up their cell phones by the 5th grade that nothing else matters because they know there is no consequence to their bad behavior and poor academic performance.

My wife teaches 6th grade and has kids who cannot spell because they know they don’t see a reason to becasue they know that the asinine CRCT tests don’t require spelling as the teachers are forced to “teach for the test” rather than for real world knowledge. Also, they just don’t care anyway because they feel no instant gratification from spelling correctly. It’s a sad time when the smart kids have to pretend they are dumb to be socialble in school.

I can relate. I slacked off in school but woke up in college. (I’m 26 so I’m not far removed from all this mandated mediocrity) I wish I had woken up earlier and not floated by because I knew better than to work hard in middle and high school. I was always smart and capable enough but the culture of the upper-middle class schools and government mandates of teaching for a test allowed me to look back with some academic regret. At least i’ve made up for it now.

BTW. my “lazy” teacher wife and her “unmotivated” teacher sister are at their school on their Christmas break working on lesson plans and setting up projects. Do you think they get merit pay for this?

By thomas

December 28, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

Old-db,

You are teaching in heaven. God bless you. You are one of the rare few.

By ironmaiden

December 30, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

While working for the Montgomery, AL school district in the 1980s, I found that the state would not compensate teachers for advanced degrees unless they were in the same field as the actual teaching position. The compensation was also much less when awarded. On a brighter note, teachers were given full retirement after 25 years of service. Now that is a topic worth addressing!!!!! The job is so much more intense that double retirement credits should be given for every year of classroom service. If education isn’t making satisfactory progress here in the GA, there are plenty of ideas out there - even some nearby. There’s Just No Excuse for dumb-a$$ bureaucratic decisionmaking!

By Private school guy

January 3, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

Allow administrators to dole out the merit pay as they desire. If they use it to attract and maintain quality staff, whose work improves the school then give the administrators merit pay as well. If they give the funds to friends and popular coaches and the school declines in educational quality then fire or demote the administrators