Get Schooled

By jim d

December 19, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

We don’t, and while we’re at it let’s eliminate the testing which compares this years crop to last years. (how stupid is that)

Then there is all the benchmark crap that only tells us what any teacher worth their salt already knows.

Shall I continue?

By catlady

December 19, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

Why, indeed?

Well, I like to look at the ITBS because I trust its results a WHOLE lot more than the CRCT, which many of us believe is subject to manipulation. In addition, I want to know if Ga kids are keeping up with other kids nationally, which the ITBS would measure. I mean, they may ALL being going to h3ll, but in relation, how much closer to h3ll are Ga students’ achievement?

By catlady

December 19, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Part of the trouble about testing, for many of our students, is making them CARe enough to give it their best shot. Inaccurate data is worse than no data. I’d like to see beginning/end of year comparisons, but the whole problem of student motivation taints the results.

In our county, kids don’t care much about the CRCt because EVERYONE is passed on anyway. EVERYONE. Why doesn’t the state question this, Dana?

By jim d

December 19, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

Allow me to answer your question with a question.

why do we need the ITBS at all?

Someone is profiting??

By decaturparent

December 19, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Our district is getting rid of the ITBS and doing MAPP (MAP?) testing instead. I’m not thrilled b/c from my understanding MAPP testing will not tell me how our system/schools are doing. I really want to know where my kid stacks up nationwide. I know it’s not perfect, but it’s better than nothing.

Apparently MAPP tells teachers more… but I really need some information too.

I don’t have a scientific sample - but from folks I know - math scores are down here too. Again, I only have a very small sample so I may be wrong.

The new GA math curriculum for middle/high school is a joke. I just hope DOE recognizes that before it’s too late.

By JustMe

December 19, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

Boiling all of the testing crap down….

Testing is done mostly for administrators (school, school system, and/or State) to cya. They want some quantitative way to show numbers to their bosses (and the general public) and these tests provide that. They are not done for the students benefit. They are not done for the teachers benefit. They are not done for the parents benefit.

Yes, teachers already know which students are really learning the content and which are not (the parents should know this as well as the students themselves). Yes, teachers know which students are prepared to move up to the next grade and which are not….. but who ever listens to the teacher?

These tests (CRCT, EOCT, GHSGT, benchmark assessments, etc.) are a farce. They cost the tax payers millions of dollars and don’t benefit the students.

By RJ

December 19, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

Since I don’t have enough time to share all of the problems with public schools…I’ll stick to the topic.

We need to know how our kids measure up against other kids in the country. However, the ITBS test needs to be updated. If there are other tests that are better, then they should at least be examined.

Standardized testing has become an obsession in our country. Do we need it? Yes. But we rely too heavily on it to determine where a student is. It’s the only instrument used to evaluate students which is the real problem. There are students that won’t test well, but they are still bright, talented kids.

By just a teacher

December 19, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

You know, I teach English, not math, but I went to a research institution to earn my little teaching degree, and I’m pretty sure that the way averages work is that there will ALWAYS be 50% above and 50% below. That’s not a design feature of the ITBS; that’s statistics. Now, if the argument is that the ITBS is not as useful as a minimum skills test with a set standard of mastery, that’s one thing, but suggesting that a normed test is somehow flawed is missing the point.

But to answer the question, I think the biggest problem is the misuse of test data. There are some useful tools out there for measuring many things, but using the ITBS to measure the success of new curriculum is inappropriate. It’s like, say, using statewide scores on a college entrance exam to evaluate all public schools in that state. Oh wait….

By decaturparent

December 19, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Bridget, can we get the same type of report that DeKalb has for other metro area districts?

By JustMe

December 19, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

catlady makes an important point….

Why should the students take these tests seriously? There are no real consequences if a students does poorly on the CRCT - the student gets promoted anyway. Are there any consequences if the student does poorly on the ITBS? I know of none.

Even with the EOCT, a student can fail the EOCT miserably and still pass the class. So what does this show or prove?

The only one that really means anything is the GHSGT because a student must pass it in order to graduate. However, to please the masses, this test has been dumbed down so much that a 6th grader can pass it!

If you were a student, would you take a ‘test’ seriously if it didn’t mean anything to you?

By Teacher, Too

December 19, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

In order to qualify for gifted education, I believe students must score at least on the 90th percentile on a nationalized normed test, such as the ITBS. It is relevant information to see how our students are performing in relation to other students.

By Bubba

December 19, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

I feel that we need the ITBS to see where our students stand compared to the rest of the nation. The CRCT shows whether the student learned the Georgia curriculum for that grade - a basic skills test - but the ITBS provides a measure to see if the advanced kids are staying advanced, the average kids are staying in the middle and whether the below average kids are catching up - Bridget’s explanation about the percentiles is a little inaccurate - the test is renormed every couple of years on a very large national sample - if an asteroid hits the Earth and millions of children suddenly sustained a traumatic brain injury then yes, everybody might do poorly on the test but short of something like that, a child is not going to rise to the top percentiles just because they did slightly better than the majority. The ITBS provides some useful information - it is not everything, just as the SAT, is not everything but it is useful to measure how the children in the state are doing as well as monitoring your own child’s progress.

By Zac Crosby

December 19, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Any assessment that we do in our public schools is valuable. Let me explain my position. When we give these assessments, we are looking at a two different things. First, we are reviewing whether the content is being taught in a manner that is effective for the students. If a number of students miss a question or do not understand a specific segment of material, we want to have the opportunity to reteach the material so that true understanding takes place.

Second, we are reviewing the data to see if an individual student has a weakness. This allows us to get the student up to speed before they reach a point where they are so far behind that catching up may not be possible (especially with mathematical concepts).

If you aren’t sure about scores that you receive regarding your child and any assessment that they take, you should contact that school immediately. Any normed assessment should come with an explanation as to what it means for your child so you can get the help they may need to become accomplished learners.

By Truth Filter

December 19, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

I’m a little confused: If an 8th-grade student took an 8th grade test at the beginning of the year, they wouldn’t do very well on it would they? So how can you judge a curriculum based on the results of a test given before that curriculum is taught?

By Lisa B.

December 19, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

We need to keep the ITBS. Students should take a norm-referenced test to measure actual performance and be compared to other students nationally. As was said above, the ITBS, not the CRCT is used as partial of the criteria to be placed in gifted programs.

The CRCT is a state test, and is therefore subject to political pressure.

The objective of the tests are differnt. The CRCT is supposedly used to test students on mastery of skills taught during the school year. It is also used to derive school report cards, AYP, and to label schools (Needs Improvement, etc). Eventually, all students must pass the CRCT so schools can achieve 100% profienciency as mandated by NCLB.

Because Georgia has no control over the ITBS, or other national, norm-referenced tests, those tests will never be used to determine AYP. Because Geogia can’t tweak the ITBS, I have more faith in the results.

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

December 19, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

If you lower the benchmark….where are you????

If your child is behind because the school has somehow been neglectful…then you as a parent need to pick up the slack…..

come on!

If they are in 8th grade……. then some tutoring is needed……

By Lisa B.

December 19, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Testing students at the beginning of the school year and then again at the end is the only true way to determine teacher and student performance. If 8th graders are tested at the beginning of the year, and by the end of the year all but two students in a class improved and gained at least a year of skills, I’d be pretty confident in the teacher’s ability to teach. I’d need to look at the two students who failed to achieve and try to figure out what happened. We they frequently absent, disruptive, etc.? Were they struggling, and if so, what interventions were put in place?

I like the idea of testing the same students at the beginning and end of each year. It doesn’t help me much to compare a teacher’s class scores from last year to the scores of his or class this year. The class contains completely different kids.

By catlady

December 19, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Observation on an earlier thread: I am pretty sure math scores will go down because our CO folks are telling us to “expose” kids to the concepts instead of teach to mastery. Right now we are “exposing” 4th graders who cannot add and subtract to 20 without using their finger how to do double and triple digit multiplication and—da da da—THEY DON’T GET IT.

By catlady

December 19, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

“using their finger”

Oops—should have been using their fingerS. Some are quite good at using their finger.

By ron

December 19, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Does anyone equate low test scores with poor teaching?If a student fails to learn,a teacher failed to teach.I was an instructor in the Army and they told me ,with no exceptions,If your student fails to learn,it’s because you failed to teach.Seemed pretty simple to me.

By Jeff

December 19, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Ron:

All living beings learn best through pain.

Unfortunately, teachers are not allowed to use ANY form of pain - not even the pain of a failing grade - anymore.

The result is that all students pass, yet no student learns ANYTHING.

By Bridget Gutierrez

December 19, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

decaturparent: That information came directly from DeKalb’s Web site, which has a section dedicated to test score reports. Fulton County also has its scores posted online. If your system does not do this, you can always request the information from the central office.

By JustMe

December 19, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Zac Crosby - So then, per your recommendation, school should be assessments every day? Where is the time for instruction? My point (and other peoples point on here) is that we already do more than enough assessing to get the data and information that we need. The problem is that the administrators refuse to (or don’t know how to) read and use the data properly. So, their solution is to do more assessing.

For example, if a student passes all high school classes, and also has passed all EOCT, why in the heck should they also be required to take the GHSGT? Another example - if a student has to take the EOCT, and the class tests, quizzes, and other assignments from the teacher, why the heck do they also have to take a ‘benchmark assessment’ every two weeks?

Lisa B. - Actually, judging a teacher based on the students score (or even improvement of score) is very unfair to the teacher. As a teacher of many years, there are classes that I have had that would have shown tremendous improvement, and there are classes that I have had that would likely show no improvement. There increase in scores (or lack thereof) is NOT a reflection on me as a teacher. It however IS a reflection on the particular mix of students that happen to be sitting in front of me for that class.

If we implement what you suggest, then I can easily see how some administrator that ‘hates’ a teacher for whatever reason would put all of the lower kids in their class to screw over that teacher…… regardless of how ‘good’ of a teacher they may be. Is that what you really want?

A teacher has absolutely no control over the type of student that walks through their door. And, the student likely has issues outside of the classroom that a teacher has zero influence on and simply cannot control. Yet, you want to judge a teacher based on that students scores?

Doing what you suggest would only serve to drive people out of teaching thus creating an even worse teacher shortage.

By LydiasDad

December 19, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Yep, and a basic parenting test, and a basic driving test, and a basic knowledge test for voting privileges, a basic drug test for welfare benefits, and so on.

By educatorX3

December 19, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Just a couple of points to make:

JustMe: I agree with Zac Crosby, although I am not sure we are talking the same thing. YES, ASSESSMENT should take place daily. As a teacher for many years and at many levels, daily, on-going assessment is what tells me if I am doing my job with my students. did they get it?

Standardized test measures and assessments are not the same thing. Can we? should we? are we? using standardized test measures in the appropriate manner? Not in all schools. Certainly not under the guidance of the federal law. If you want to know if my students have learned what they are supposed to learn, and therefore, I have taught what I am supposed to teach, then we need to test students at the beginning and the end of the school year.

However, I can identify trends in instruction based on comparative scores. I can look for instruction that goes above and beyond when comparing students to a nationally normed test. If the system is fortunate enough to do a group ability test along with the achievement tests, I can use the scores to make many recommendations for monitoring students.

The tests themselves are not the evil - the way we use the scores is often the problem.

I would love to teach an assessment and measurement class to those who are making some of the decision makers!

By David

December 19, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

I think that the worst thing about these tests are they force the teachers to teach the students how to past the test rather than teaching real Knowledge!

By Curious Observer

December 19, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

A quick correction for the teacher who understands that 50% of students will always be above the average and 50% below it. That’s true for the median, but not for the average. Let’s say you have five scores—100, 35, 30, 20, 15. The average is 38, but 80% of the scores are below it.

By educatorX3

December 19, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Wow…that last sentence was a mess of errors! Sorry…what I meant to say was I would love to teach an assessment and measurement class to some of the decision makers!

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 19, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

I am thankful for the ITBS, as I do not really care how my kids are doing in relation to others in Georgia, however, I do care how well they are learning on a national scale. I do not trust the Ga. Doe to determine proficiency, given their latest concept of math education for high schoolers.

Our school gives the ITBS at the beginning of the year so that they do not have to answer to parents when asked “why did Johnny score a 32%?”. Instead, they can simply say, “We tested Johnny to know what we should teach him this year.” Also, many schools are applying for Charter status to keep from showing where their students are on a national level (they can choose not to require the ITBS). Smoke and mirrors.

About the days of instruction: Why are my kids spending this week in front of movies and at parties? Isn’t that valuable instruction time? I have one in HS, MS, and elem. Great townhall.com article by Walter Williams, today, entitled Academic Slums. Read it and weep.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 19, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

By the way Bridget - my gifted 8th grader scored a 32% on the math computation portion of her ITBS, after six years in “reform math.” (Reform math is everyday math, connected math, terc, Cathy Cox’s new math, etc.) My daughter’s gifted math teacher said that it didn’t matter, anyway, because “these kids can think on a much higher level.” (But can’t make change at McDonald’s). Our system bought into the “reform math” concept many years ago, and an entire generation of students are performing below level in math, because of it. (Keep in mind, with the “gifted,” we are used to 99% on the ITBS).

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 19, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Catlady- Makes you want to beat your head against a wall, doesn’t it? They truly “don’t get it.” THey being the educrats and teachers who have fallen for this ridiculous “reform math” garbage. We will also see a decline in in-state students accepted to Georgia Tech, once the new Georgia curriculum is in full gear. Surely GT will not lower its’ acceptance standards!

By Lisa B.

December 19, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Just Me,

Point taken. Still, I like the idea of monitoring gains made by students, rather than setting an arbitrary pass/fail bar. I also don’t like having test scores of this year’s class compared to last year’s class. Last year I had a hard-working group, as opposed to a lazy group the year before. All things were not equal.

There really isn’t a fair way to judge teachers by test scores, and I am opposed to doing so.

By Foobs

December 19, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

It’s no wonder to me why many kids can’t add and subtract today. It’s because they no longer have to learn skills like listening, paying attention, following directions, staying under control, reading above a 3rd grade level, and doing things that don’t pay off within 30 seconds. The sad truth is that kids today can blame everyone else for their shortfalls. There are no more expectations. The entire system is geared toward making everything easier, showering kids with compliments when they don’t deserve them, and placating the loudmouth parent who created a monster of a kid, not embracing good parents and shunning the bad ones. Until we have higher behavioral and academic expectations for our students(and their parents), nothing will happen. We will continue to have morons that drop their jaw and starting counting their fingers when you give them $21 if they ask for $10.50. You can only make excuses and feel sorry for everyone for so long. We need to start requiring everyone to pull their own weight.

By Foobs

December 19, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Direct quote from this article: “My sons cannot add and subtract fractions and decimals, which are skills they should have learned in fifth and sixth grades,” she wrote.

If you ask me, the primary problem lies with the parent, not the school. This is a perfect example of a parent blaming schools. I’m sure they did teach it in school. However, the kid probably did horribly or never paid attention, or whatever. And the teacher probably gave good grades for fear of backlash. Our whole system has seriously dropped expectations for everyone is happy. Besides, the kid should have learned fractions from parents by the age of 7. We expect far too little from our kids. And too many parents have the accountability all backwards. If my kids couldn’t add or subtract fractions by 5th grade, I would be all over THEM until they can. When my kid comes home with bad grades, I feel great because I know the teacher has some expectations. It really isn’t that tough for them to suck it up and deal. Unfortunately, these days when kids struggle, the first place parents look is the school or the teachers. We’re creating a bunch of whiners that can’t do anything for themselves.

Fractions at grade 5 or 6? Are you kidding me? Where do you people go to school? Where I went to school, we were doing algebra by then.

By decaturparent

December 19, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Rural GA Mom, we have the same problem here in urban GA. We have gifted kids scoring low on “teachable” things like spelling and math computation. Sure, their critical thinking skills are great - but it doesn’t matter much if you can’t add or spell.

Our system is also going to a smoke and mirrors assessment system (MAP)(and part of the way to get there is charter status). Apparently it tells the teachers what is going on with each student but it tells the parents nothing about whether the school system is doing its job. The teachers should know what is going on with the students by being in the class with them. Isn’t that what “tests” are for!?

I couldn’t give a rip about how my kids do on a test of what GA thinks my kid should know. The CRCT is CR-P. I want to know how my kids stack up against the other kids in the nation that they will compete against for college slots and jobs!!

Now I won’t know that until they take the SAT, and then it is too late.

By Foobs

December 19, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

Teachers are now forced to be entertainers that satisfy kids with instant gratification, and then they have to placate parents by showering their kids with undeserving compliments, i.e., grades. As a result, many good teachers that hold their ground end of quitting or getting fired. It’s really hard to be a passionate teacher these days. Gone are the days when teachers can hold high expectations and make kids meet them.

By Attn: Clayton Parents

December 19, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

I see AJC reporters will come on here to address questions about test scores. Why, ESPECIALLY given the AJC’s coverage of SACS investigation won’t they come on here to address why they haven’t covered the story of a Clayton board member’s wife illegally double dipping? Given the EXTENSIVE coverage of the SACS story is it not legitimate to ask why they haven’t covered a story that can, (and has) been CONFIRMED through an Open Records request?

Is there ANYBODY out there who can make the argument that this isn’t a LEGITIMATE question to ask, again ESPECIALLY in light of the AJC’s coverage of the SACS investigation?

By yesiamworried

December 19, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

The short answer to the question is yes — we need the ITBS.

To all DeKalb parents, especially those in South DeKalb, please wake up and smell the roses. Your schools are not performing well — it may be because you are crummy parents, but that can’t explain it all.

Only 5 DeKalb middle schools (plus DSA which only has 8th grade and has minimum ITBS scores to be admitted) had average ITBS scores over 50 percent and this includes Tucker middle which had average scores in the low 50s and Shamrock where the 8th grade average was 49. The other schools with higher scores were Peachtree, Chamblee (houses the magnet program) and Henderson. It is very scary. The averages at McNair Middle was 25 percent across the board.

It is time for these communities to demand more of their students, parents and the school. (Or please let DeKalb split in half.)

By catlady

December 19, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this

I was an instructor in the Army and they told me with no exceptions,If your student fails to learn,it’s because you failed to teach

ron, PLEASE spend half a day at any but the most choice schools. Please.

Big difference: in the Army you had folks who wanted to be there. They were motivated, if only to escape the discipline their instructors could and would impose. Please go see what real, average public schools are all about before you type something like that again.

Discipline is the key. Without discipline (internal and external for those who need it), learning does not happen. True story: I had a first grader, years ago, a fairly bright kid. Everything at home was done for him, and that followed him to school. I suggested to his mother that he needed some chores—not for money, but because in the real world we all have responsibilities we have to take care of. She looked at me like I was insane, but within weeks there was improvement. Years later she said, “Johnny never would have learned to read if you hadn’t told me to have him start making his bed.”

Many, many schools have no followup for discipline problems, large or small. I am not talking about chewing gum, either.

The teachers at our school instruct EVEN WHEN KIDS ARE LINED UP FOR THE BATHROOM. They stand on their heads, they bleed. They perform “explicit instruction” all day—there is no time allowed for any contemplation. There is no time allowed for mastery. We must move on! We must “expose” the students to the subject! If the student does not prepare, THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES ALLOWED! No lowering a grade, no staying in at recess.

Please, investigate!

By catlady

December 19, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this

why do we need the ITBS?

Because, Bridgett, on one version of the 3rd grade CRCt last year, there were 3 (THREE) questions that dealt with the most important topic of THE GEORGIA STATE BIRD and other such earthshaking “skills”!!! (Instead of on things that have a real bearing on understanding the world.)

Look at the “correlations” (using the word very loosely) between CRCT and ITBS. Your kid can know a world of Sht, (the CRCT, a very easy test) and have very limited academic skills, as measured by a test comparing them to other students nationally.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 19, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

Glynn County schools officials had asked for a reprieve from giving eighth-graders the science and social studies portions of the tests this year because they needed more instructional days.

The movies my three kids have watched in Georgia public schools, this week, alone: The Rookie, Ratatouille, Of Mice and Men, Johnny Q, Freaky Friday, Best Christmas Pagent Ever, A Christmas Carol, The Polar Express, with additional movies expected tomorrow (Thursday). And to think that they use ‘loss of instructional time’ as an excuse for not letting parents see how far behind the nation this state’s education system actually is! The first requirement is to move the ITBS back to the spring of the proper grade year and stop trying to fool the parents.

By blurb-o-mat

December 19, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

Foobs, you have it all wrong, at least as far as the math goes. Under the math curriculum implemented by the Georgia Department of Education three years ago, students are not taught multiplication and division of fractions to mastery. As Rural Georgia Mom explained, this new-new math does not spend time teaching basic skills to mastery; instead, it teaches children how to use calculators — starting in kindergarten — because that is the more efficient way to solve problems. As Decatur mom mentioned, the curriculum is strong on critical thinking skills but weak on the basics.

By C.R.H.

December 19, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this

Videos have their time and place in classes…but showing several at the end of the year is too much. Having said that; the “instructional time” that teachers speak of is the time BEFORE the EOCT or CRCT, not after the test. That leaves about 2 weeks at the end of the semester for teachers to do something and typically they have “covered” all the curriculum (too quickly & not indepth) by the time the tests come. What this means is that the students get ripped out of 2 weeks of instructional time and the teachers are too exhausted to go back and remediate…not that it would matter, most kids think the year is over when the tests are done anyway! And there would be no point in remediating; it won’t help those oh so important test scores. I really agree with Jim D. - the teachers get exactly what they deserve because they don’t have the ba!!s to DEMAND that they be allowed to actually teach instead of test.

By C.R.H.

December 19, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this

Videos have their time and place in classes…but showing several at the end of the year is too much. Having said that; the “instructional time” that teachers speak of is the time BEFORE the EOCT or CRCT, not after the test. That leaves about 2 weeks at the end of the semester for teachers to do something and typically they have “covered” all the curriculum (too quickly & not indepth) by the time the tests come. What this means is that the students get ripped out of 2 weeks of instructional time and the teachers are too exhausted to go back and remediate…not that it would matter, most kids think the year is over when the tests are done anyway! And there would be no point in remediating; it won’t help those oh so important test scores. I really agree with Jim D. - the teachers get exactly what they deserve because they don’t have the ba!!s to DEMAND that they be allowed to actually teach instead of test.

By JustMe

December 19, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this

educatorX3 - You are mixing informal assessments with the topic at hand - the standardized tests which are formal assessments. At least I hope that you are confusing them. I cannot really believe that anyone would really like the idea of students taking formal standardized tests every day, thus minimizing any chance for instruction!

yesIamworried - As a DeKalb teacher, I would love the idea of splitting the school system into two parts. I feel this is desperately needed because it is now too large and unmanageable. The County implements sweeping policies that ALL schools must follow - but not ALL schools in DeKalb are the same. The smaller halves of the School System could be more focused on the individual needs of the school.

Rural GA Mom - There is no excuse for showing movies like that in school. However, I would like for you to place yourself in the teacher’s shoes for a moment…. At this time of year, the standardized testing is over for the semester (be it EOCT, CRCT, or whatever). Parents are wanting their kids to make A’s (this is NOT the same thing as parents wanting their kids to learn). And, the kids are not wanting to be at school at all, much less learn a darn thing - their minds are on Christmas. If you, as the teacher, were to push/challenge the kids to learn they would inevitably resist and complain - they would whine that they already took the EOCT (or whatever) and so what is the purpose of learning this stuff? You, as the teacher, would be totally at odds with the students, and this is not pretty. So, you resort to doing whatever you have to do to survive. You come up with goofy things (showing movies) to pacify the kids and simple assignments (to help improve their grades) to pacify the parents and administration.

As an experienced teacher, I fully understand this (although I don’t agree with it). Teachers are human, too, and we wear down from students whineing and parents complaining that the work is too hard, there is too much homework, my grades aren’t high enough, and so on…. and this doesn’t even include discipline/behavior issues! I can understand when a teacher throws up their hands and says, “Fine! I’ll just show a movie!” It sure would be nice to have some support from somewhere to help teachers!

Foobs - You hit the nail on the head! Teachers are expected to be entertainers. I recently had a student tell me that they were bored and I should be more exciting. I told him that I am a teacher and not an entertainer - I am not trained to tap dance, sing, or act. I told him it was my job to present the content and it was his job to learn the content….. and that is how I really feel. Now before anyone jumps on me here, understand that I do a variety of teaching methods in my classes every day - so please don’t go down that path!

By Lisa B.

December 19, 2007 8:27 PM | Link to this

Wow Rural GA Mom, we were told NO movies would be watched, even on the last day before the break. Above elementary, NO parties are allowed. At the elementary level parties can only be held the last 45 minutes of the day. In fact, students have tests the last day before the break. Grades are not due in until we return in January.

As far as mastery of multiplication facts, my siblings and I learned ours in the car while running errands with my mom. That’s the same way my now 13-year-old son learned his. We also memorized spelling words at home, competed vocabulary definitions, and practiced all sorts of other skills as homework. Rote memory work is done at home, while conceptualized thinking skills are taught at school. I don’t have a problem with that. I WANT school to be rigorous.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 19, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

Lisa B. - I agree that parents should work on memorization items at home. However, my eldest literally forgot the majority of her multiplication facts after three years of Connected Math in middle school. You cannot imagine the frustration of this parent of academically gifted children - as I watched her admit she did not know how to draw a division bracket, nor did she know which number went where on the bracket, nor how to “bring down” the numbers. We were both in tears as she tried to guess at the multiplication facts that would help her solve the problem. THREE YEARS of calculator use resulted in an unbelievable loss of basic math skills, thanks to “reform math.”

By educatorX3

December 19, 2007 9:38 PM | Link to this

JustMe Go back and read what I wrote….of course I know the difference between informal assessment and standardized testing - that was the point I was making. Assessment should take place every day. I was responding to your statement: *Zac Crosby - So then, per your recommendation, school should be assessments every day? * I didn’t say anything about taking standardized tests everyday. In the vernacular of my school, the words testing and assessment are not interchangeable. But then again, I think I work in one of the best systems/schools. Our focus is on instruction and assessment - the test scores are the result of good teaching.

By ironmaiden

December 19, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

Some of you are missing some very critical comments made by “Catlady”. How can any test provide valid info if the student taking it cares nothing about answering questions accurately?? Those of you who do not work in the public school system would be shocked at just how many students fall into this category. Last spring, I was required to tutor kids for the 9th-grade English, End-Of-Course Exam. Sessions occurred before and after school, 3 days weekly, for 2 to 3 months. When I started checking student records, I found that many of those in the tutoring sessions did not pass language arts in 6th, 7th or 8th grade. Additionally, they did not pass the 8th-grade CRCT in the subject area. But here they were in the 9th grade, and I was working my a$$ off. Kids aren’t stupid, and they don’t bother if they don’t need to. Wake-up all you arm chair statisticians!!

By ironmaiden

December 19, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this

For 2007, Startlingly Astute Comments:

“What I want to fix your attention on is the vast overall movement towards the discrediting, and finally the elimination, of every kind of human excellence — moral, cultural, social or intellectual. And is it not pretty to notice how ‘democracy’ (in the incantatory sense) is now doing for us the work that was once done by the most ancient dictatorships, and by the same methods? The basic proposal of the new education is to be that dunces and idlers must not be made to feel inferior to intelligent and industrious pupils. That would be ‘undemocratic.’ Children who are fit to proceed may be artificially kept back, because the others would get a trauma by being left behind. The bright pupil thus remains democratically fettered to his own age group throughout his school career, and a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval’s [of the same age] attempts to spell out A CAT SAT ON A MAT. We may reasonably hope for the virtual abolition of education when ‘I’m as good as you’ has fully had its way. All incentives to learn and all penalties for not learning will vanish. The few who might want to learn will be prevented; who are they to overtop their fellows? And anyway, the teachers — or should I say nurses? — will be far too busy reassuring the dunces and patting them on the back to waste any time on real teaching. We shall no longer have to plan and toil to spread imperturbable conceit and incurable ignorance among men.”

C. S. Lewis 1898 - 1963 quoteworld.org

By Lisa B.

December 19, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

Rural Ga. Mom, I am not sure why calculators are used for anything other than high-level math taught in upper grades. My 8th grade son does some work with a graphing calculator in Algebra. However, students can’t use calculators on the CRCT, so why create the dependancy? I agree with you that calculator can be harmful. I, too am frustrated that my son is a guinea pig with the new math implementation. As a 9th grader next year, he’ll be in the first class to take Math I instead of Algebra. If the math hadn’t changed, he would have taken Algebra I this year, as an 8th grader. Current 7th grade students will get to be the first to take the additional-but-not-yet-approved End of Course Tests. I think my son is going to miss out on some of that!

Something had to be changed in Georgia’s education system. It is early yet to tell if the changes underway will improve education as expected, but I hope so.

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 5:59 AM | Link to this

Math teacher here (retired). (For those that know me, look the definition up. It fits.)

1) Calculators: Not even needed for Algebra 1. Only when you get to the advanced conics of late Geometry/ Algebra 2/ Trig/ Calc are calculators needed in math class AT ALL. And at that point, you don’t need a weak ‘scientific’ calculator. You need a full fledged graphing calculator, TI-84 or equivalent. Why teachers even THINK of allowing ANYONE (and yes, I include SpecEd kids here) to use them before that level is beyond me. It really does go back to my comment about pain.

2) The new GA HS math curriculum is EXCELLENT - if it is executed properly. Ive commented about it several times, but to those who object to it: do you also object to multiple methods of creating art (painting, sculpture, modeling, drawing, etc) being taught in art class? Because that is really what is going on. Math can be seen through different ‘lenses’, and it is important that we teach all lenses together. An idea that may not ‘jive’ for a particular student in one lens may become routine when seen through another lens. (Such as parabolas. Initially, I could manipulate them FAR easier algebraically than geometrically. But the knowledge of how to do both was ESSENTIAL.)

By WFC

December 20, 2007 8:10 AM | Link to this

Retired (after 31 years) history teacher here (last 5 years at Northview.) My son took AP Lit this past semester. The EOCT test counted as the final exam and 15% of the grade. I asked him about the test. He laughed out loud and said that the test was a joke.

During my last year of teaching A.P. American history, I had 40 students in my AP classes and the lowest score on the EOCT test was 91%. Many of my students never scored higher than 75% on my real tests.

This should tell you something about the “one size fits all” mentality of public schools.

By jim d

December 20, 2007 8:21 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the chuckle Jeff,You really are a funny guy.

A better descriptor than retired might be refired though. :-)Ya only missed it by one letter.

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

jim:

Laugh all you want, but I was never fired.

I served my full contract in both systems I worked for and moved on.

Without that work, and without moving on, I could not be where I am now.

Again, I was never fired. I moved on exactly when I needed to, of my own volition.

Hence, retired fits.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 20, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

Lisa B. and Jeff- Large portions of the Everyday Math and Connected Math textbooks are devoted to teaching students how to use the calculator. Both of these curricula are “reform math.”

Also - my 9th grade daughter is actually in the first group to start the new HS math curriculum, although she had algebra 1 in 7th, and geometry in 8th (and passed the ridiculously easy EOCT with over 90% in both), she is now sitting in MATH1 at our high school, which chose to roll out the new program a year early. She is watching classmates learn geometry for the first time while she chats with friends who took the classes in middle school with her.

By jim d

December 20, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

My bad, I forgot that teachers rarely get fired—they “just move on”. Generally to another system. Sorry.

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

Rural:

Neither of the two curricula you mentioned are GPS. (Georgia Performance Standards, the new State curriculum.) While both may be used to TEACH GPS, neither actually IS. In other words, if I were you I would become active in my community to get my local board to drop these programs. GPS CAN be taught without a calculator. And more importantly than that, if you feel so strongly that your kids not be allowed to use a calculator, do two things: 1) Teach them at home. The basics of arithmetic are such that virtually EVERYONE my age or older (I’m about to turn 25) knows it. If you need help, there are several resources at your nearest bookstore. 2) Tell your child’s teacher directly that your child is NOT to use a calculator.

Regarding your freshman: I agree that the state has not done a good job in working out the kinks as far as students who are more advanced than their grade level indicates. Heck, I myself took A1 (Algebra 1) in 8th grade, so I understand your frustration. There is a but here though…

BUT the standards in the new curriculum are slightly different than the old, and - if the teacher has been trained properly (a big IFF in some situations) - the teaching style should be at least slightly different. Quite honestly, the old style of teaching with QCC (the old curriculum) does not lend itself well to the new standards.

Furthermore, while I will frankly say that I favor more drilling - particularly at the basic levels - it has NOT been truly abandoned. In fact, I would say that it is still NECESSARY. GPS’s weakness is that it does not acknowledge this and tries to downplay any needed drilling.

I’ve held - and this is one of the factors that led to me leaving teaching - that without drilling the basics (arithmetic, including whole numbers, fractions, and decimals), the more advanced ideas CANNOT be mastered. I can NOT teach someone what a real number is until they have a firm grasp on basic arithmetic, including fractions and decimals. Furthermore, one cannot teach the intricacies of the relationship among whole numbers, fractions, decimals, and percentages without the student first understanding how to manipulate these ideas in the concrete form. (This was my main philosophical difference of opinion at Randolph, and one of the reasons I gladly left when my contract expired.)

Again, that said, GPS - including the new HS math classes - IS a FAR better system overall than QCC. I LIKE the fact that for the first time in my lifetime, the State of Georgia has ordered that students be taught the intricacies that were missing - and in some cases, pivotal - when I was a student under QCC.

By JustMe

December 20, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

educatorX3 - So then…. when you wrote your posting about ‘doing assessments every day’, you were aware that you were introducing informal assessments with the topic at hand (formal standardized testing)? And, you were mixing the word “assessment” (informal and formal) in order to confuse , or maybe to berrate, or maybe to tell me that I, as a teacher, am doing something wrong? What was your intent/purpose for this?

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

jim:

Actually, for most teachers, “moving on” means leaving teaching altogether. Hence the teacher shortage.

And in my experience, the teachers that are driven out of teaching are roughly 80% of the time the very ones we need most IN the classroom.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 20, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

Thanks, Jeff- I have been battling reform math for six years in our district, but my primary problem is that none of the decision makers enjoyed math as students. The EM and Connected Math textbooks use problems which require a calculator, or the student cannot finish the problem. (When better textbooks include a problem with a square root, for example, the problem will be square root of 81, rather than square root of 24.6 *3.45.) The problems simply aren’t solveable without calculators - on purpose. The elementary school gifted teacher explained to me that this generation of students will have throw-away calculators as adults and do not need rote memorization skills. I am an engineer - can you imagine my frustration with these people? EM and Connected Math are reform math curricula used by many schools up through 8th grade. The Texas school board recently refused to use tax-payer money to fund EM. Washington State is really battling the reform math theology on a state level. Here is a great youtube by a meteorologist in Washington explaining calculator-pushing textbooks: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI&mode=related&search=

By Lisa B.

December 20, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

For a number of years, my school system moved away from spending time during the school day to drill math facts (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, decimals, and student achievement in math fell. Now my school system is committed to ensuring all the students know their math facts. Kids are periodically given speed drills, and if they are lacking in skills, remediation is provided. This is implemented all the way through 8th grade. Believe it or not, we still run across a few 8th graders who can’t complete speed drills in multiplication. Kids are remediated before school, after school, during breakfast, during lunch, during PE and other exploratory classes, but not during the regular class. Some children become highly motivated to practice math facts at home when they tire of missing PE. Whatever it takes. Our math scores are improving system-wide. I expect the trend to continue.

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

Rural:

Shoot me an email at ajc_jeff@yahoo.com Several of the bloggers here live in rural GA, and I may be able to help and/ or turn to them for advice.

I’ll agree that without math geeks in SOME position of authority (even an ASST Superintendent as a math geek could be beneficial, or a math geek on the local board), calculator abuse will abound.

What is kinda ironic about ME in particular is that I didn’t really become a math geek until my later college days (when I actively worked towards a Math Ed degree). Prior to that, math classes represented some of my LOWEST grades (and my absolute lowest grades in HS!!).

Now, however… I’m a programmer and a computer scientist. My field would not exist without mathematics! (I could go into CS history and tell you about group theory, ring theory, discrete mathematics, and the like - the mathematical foundation of the multi-billion dollar industry called computing - but it would bore far too many people to tears!!)

By Lee

December 20, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

So, Jeff is calling himself a “retired” teacher. ROFLMAO.

Mr. Reality, meet Jeff. Y’all two really do need to get acquainted.

Since we’re on the subject of Math, here is a story that is making the email circuit. Enjoy.

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $3.58. The counter girl took my $4.00 and I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies. While looking at the screen on her register, I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried.

Why do I tell you this? Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s.

Teaching Math In 1950:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

Teaching Math In 1960:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1970:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

Teaching Math In 1980:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math In 1990: A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers.)

Teaching Math In 2006:
Un ranchero vende una carretera de madera por $100. El cargo de produccion es $80. Cuantas tortillas se puede comprar?

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

jim:

‘semi’ retired at that!

See, the difference is that even though I’m not currently in the classroom, it IS my intention to go back - though this time I’ll be going to the post-secondary lecture hall rather than a K-12 classroom.

BTW: That story, in its variants, has been going around for YEARS. Still slightly funny, and still all too true, but really old nonetheless.

By Lisa B.

December 20, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Ahhh, the kids don’t need math facts because they’ll have throw away calculators as adults. In my early years of teaching elementary school, I was told not to waste time teaching cursive writing because children would one day all carry laptops around with them. Well, it hasn’t worked out quite that way, has it?

By jim d

December 20, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

Geez,

As I recall—flash cards worked!

By Lee

December 20, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Lisa B, and I remember in the 1980’s the personal computer would “render the paper industry obsolete.”

By DB

December 20, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

Ugh — calculators!! I hate ‘em in the lower grades. My kids hated me, too, when they were in lower and middle school, because I refused to allow them to use a calculator at home to do their math homework. I told them they had brains that needed exercise, and that using a calculator to do a math problem was like using a car to drive to the next-door neighbor’s house. They whined, pouted, sighed and complained for several weeks until they figured out that this was one subject that Mom wasn’t going to budge on.

They thank me, now, but it was an uphill battle all the way. I even had a math teacher ask me why I wouldn’t let them use their calculator at home (yes, my kids tattled on me!). She smirked a bit when I explained why, and then superciliously said “Well, some parents just aren’t comfortable with technology …” To which I replied, with freezing scorn, “Honey, I networked five home computers and run a database management company from my home. Do you really want to get into a technology argument with me?”

A few years back, I read an intriguing article that claimed that American math mastery was falling behind compared to Japanese math students because Japanese math was taught fewer concepts, but drilled them mercilessly. American math teachers, according to this article, tended to do buffet style, with a little of this, a little of that, and not enough of anything to promote true mastery. It hink they were on to something.

By Rural Ga. Mom

December 20, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

The ITBS is a proven way for Georgian’s to know where the students in Georgia stand in relation to the rest of the nation. Getting rid of the ITBS would benefit the educrats in the state, providing them with yet another way to hide lack of learning occurring (or not occurring) within the state schools. The new HS math curriculum entitled Math 1, Math 2, etc. is another way to blur the lines of failure within the state schools, leaving everyone confused.

By educatorX3

December 20, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

JustMe, I am sorry you took my post personally. I was simply responding to what you had said. There was no intent to berate or confuse. I was trying to make the point that the standardized tests that we are required to give are only one of many measures. They have a purpose and a use - when used correctly. However, I do believe that the daily assessments that we do are the true measure of our value as teachers and the learning that takes place in the classroom.

I’ve read and reread my post and am sorry that you thought I was in anyway being rude or belittling you as a teacher.

By JustMe

December 20, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Why are some posters here so hung up with Jeff being retired or even semi-retired? I know of many teachers that left the profession, and may very well return to the profession.

If you don’t like the term ‘retire’ or ‘semi-retired’, what would you call that?

I ‘retired’ from the corporate world before teaching. I had plenty of years in, had plenty of money, had enough of the corporate world BS, and so I left. I went into teaching as a way to keep busy, stay involved, help young people, and so on (yeah, the insurance helps and the meager salary is a nice ‘extra’). Would you call that ‘retired?’

By Lee

December 20, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

JustMe, maybe it’s because those of us who have frequented this blog are aware of the circumstances that Jeff has posted regarding his employment history and think that him refering to himself as “retired” is a bit disingenuous.

Drummed out, run off, or quit before getting fired might be more descriptive.

On the bright side, he may have a bright future as an author of fiction novels.

By Jeff

December 20, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Lee:

You may want to hold off on libelous statements like that.

The FACT of the matter is that I fully served both of my teaching contracts. I then left teaching of my own volition. (Hence I can claim I ‘retired’ from teaching.)

By Tony

December 20, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

ITBS or another nationally norm-referenced test needs to be included if we maintain our fixation on CRCT. Tests - no matter what kind it is - give only a snapshot for a student. An otherwise diligent student could have a bad testing day. Teachers and parents should never put so much emphasis on testing results that we forget we are teaching children.

It is very sad to see how quickly some people draw conclusions in this blog. The 30%-ile score in math computation does not translate into ineffectiveness in teaching mathematics. It means a child has not been trained to be extremely fast in some calculations. If I recall correctly, there are about 45 problems in the computation section and the child is given 10 - 12 minutes to complete the section. I for one am not interested in how quickly a child can crank out answers. I expect my children to understand what they are doing. If we turned our energy to computation, we would sacrifice problem solving skills. Everything comes at a cost. So, when I prioritize math skills I would rather shoot for the skills that make a long-term difference.

By Lee

December 20, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Yeah, yeah, and Clinton “…didn’t have sex with that woman…”

I can tell you from my experience in the corporate world and as a business owner, it’s a lot simpler and cleaner if you can get an employee to quit or ‘retire’ rather than fire them.

By Lisa B.

December 20, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Tony, you make a good point. Many students do not or cannot complete the math portions of the ITBS in the time allowed. Some students get correct answers for most of the problems completed, only to earn a low score because they didn’t work quickly enough to answer all the questions. On the CRCT, the students have MUCH more time to complete each section. Even my very slowest working students over the years always completed every part.

By JustMe

December 20, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Lee - You are so very pessimistic! When I ‘retired’ from the corporate world, my then boss tried to get me to stay by offering more money, and other ‘perks.’ Even now (years later), I continue to get calls from my old company as well as head hunters with job offers to lure me back into the corporate world.

Not everything nor everyone is negative and bitter like you seem to be.

By Lee

December 20, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Negative? Pessimistic? Bitter?

Where in the name of reading comprehension did you get that from?

Oh, nevermind.

By catlady

December 20, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Semantics, folks. Most of us think of retirement as a)voluntarily stopping work and b) after having done it for a long time—decades. I would not, for example, claim to have retired from something like leaf-raking, which I did a number of falls for money, nor babysitting, nor working at the bookstore nor working at a daycare center. If I had done one of those for thirty years, however….

I have 34 years of teaching under my belt. When I no longer teach, I will RETIRE from teaching. I won’t quit. Others might see it other ways.

Re: math. Are any other pre-high school teachers being told to “expose” the kids instead of t