Get Schooled

By Jeff

December 11, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

OK, I know what I’m about to say won’t hold true in Metro ATL or even in many of the Regional Cities, but here goes:

T and I were talking last night about her work, and she told me that she had figured out why one of her students is constantly sleeping in class.

It turns out that he wakes up around 2-3a most mornings before school and goes out hunting, then comes home, grabs a shower, and goes to school.

Now, it would not surprise me if this kid one day forgot to take his gun out of his truck.

Yet, if it happens and he gets caught, he gets expelled.

Not because he was one of the wackos. Indeed, knowing that he goes hunting I’m willing to say that he would probably be one of the ones trying to STOP a wacko. But because he simply made a human mistake, akin to forgetting to put his book bag in his car.

So what IS the right solution? I would say instead of expelling them on the spot, confiscate the gun and hold the kid in the office until you can get a parent there. Tell the parent what happened and turn the kid over to the parent, MAYBE send them home for the day, if you must.

Note that I’m only applying this to weapons found in a student’s car. If it is brought into the school building, I go the other way and say shoot to kill on sight. At that point, the kid in question simply poses too much of a danger.

Bridget, is there any way you could find out where/how most of the weapons in question are found??

By Truth Filter

December 11, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Actually the question is: CAN anyone do anything about it, other than parents? The answer is “not really.” You’d have to convince kids that guns are not “cool,” and that is well beyond the abilities of the schools or the government.

By a reader

December 11, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

What if the a troubled kid stumbled upon the forgotten gun, Jeff? Owning a gun is a responsibility. If you leave it where it does not belong, you face the consequence. Expel the kid. Arrest the gun owner who did not secure the gun. Why the heck is a kid going out hunting on a school night anyway? If a teacher “forgot” to remove a gun from a car, the teacher would be fired, yes? Guns, weapons, etc. have no place on school grounds.

By Bridget Gutierrez

December 11, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Hi, Jeff. Unfortunately, I can’t find the 2007 statewide data at the moment. (You can access disciplinary data for 2007 through this website, but it lumps all the weapons data (knives, handguns, rifles, etc.) together and does not provide overall state figures.)

According to the State Department of Education data that I do have, in 2006 there were 150 student disciplinary incidents involving handguns or rifles. The highest numbers of cases occurred in these school systems:

Clayton County 22

Cobb County 13

Atlanta Public Schools 10

Pelham City 10

Douglas County 9

DeKalb County 8

Fulton County 8

Gwinnett County 6

Richmond County 6

Clarke County 5

Newton County 5

Most systems (about 130 or so of 181) did not record any gun-related incidents that year. The remainder had four or fewer cases.

By Old School

December 11, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Jeff, it is my understanding there is a “safety zone” surrounding schools within which firearms are prohibited. I think it extends 1000 feet beyond each campus (which, in the case of our high school and most elementary schools, includes neighborhoods.)

I understand where you are coming from with your hunting story but I also know that responsible hunters would safely put away their guns follwing a hunt in a manner that would leave them ready for the next outing. That does NOT include storing them in a truck or car.

While I agree that the administration should have some discretion in handling these cases, the law is still the law. Are we going to continue to just look the other way because someone “forgot?”

By WTF?

December 11, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Whaaaatt? Where’s the bashing and calling this child a thug from the wrong side of the tracks?!!! Is it being assumed that because this was a Cobb Co. school, that this can’t possibly be true? We all know if the child had been in a City of Atlanta, or South Fulton or Clayton County school there would be nothing but those types of comments. HA! Maybe the little Cobb County thug needs some home training!!!!!!!!!

By Jeff

December 11, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Old School:

1) It isn’t ‘looking the other way’. The school is still dealing with the fact that the kid brought a prohibited weapon onto school grounds. My method simply allows the kid to admit he made a mistake. Again, if the gun is found in his car, he clearly poses no immediate threat. Have a security officer confiscate the gun and lock it in their office. Have the student brought to the Principal’s office, where he is to remain until his parent gets there. Once the parent shows up, explain the situation and have security escort both off the premises, handing the gun to the parent once they are safely away from campus. The kid still misses class, so he is still being punished. He isn’t getting away scot-free. But neither is he being permanently punished for a brain fart.

2) Your ‘halo’ raises certain questions: If guns are illegal to have within this halo, yet the halo includes private residences, are the residents denied their Second Ammendment rights???

By Lisa B.

December 11, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Many questions must be addressed. WHY do students take guns to school? Why do they think gun use is the best way to handle a problem? How are students getting their hands on guns?

We have guns in our home, but they are locked in a gun-safe, and my husband has the key.

If students feel unsafe at school, that needs to be addressed. I know that bullying is a major problem in schools, and that despite anti-bullying laws, bullying continues.

There is a tendancy to blame violence on television, video games, and rap music. I think there is more to the problem.

I don’t think there is one simple answer. Gunslinging kids are a sympton of much bigger problems.

By Tony

December 11, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

WEAPONS HAVE NO PLACE ON SCHOOL CAMPUSES! If parents were held responsible for their kids behavior and YDC was utilized for weapons charges, I think it would help. We certainly do not need another social experiment added to the burden schools already bear.

By OldSchool

December 11, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I was a little bewildered at the 1000 foot thing as well because of the neighborhoods. Then a “neighbor” fired off several rounds in the air from his home across the street from an elementary school and I realized that all it takes is one freakish incident to get your attention. No one is going into houses and gestapo-ing guns. I think it is simply the lawmakers’ attempt to do something to keep kids safe.

I still say responsible hunters put their guns away properly and if a kid “forgets” his rifle is in the truck, he’s not so very responsible…is he?

Kids today have a very strong sense of entitlement. They take great latitude in assuming they are right and will push the envelope whenever it is to their advantage. The “Oh, my bad!” excuse for “forgetting” a hunting rifle is a load of bunk. It is as irresponsible as sleeping in class because he is tired from hunting.

By HB

December 11, 2007 5:47 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I grew up in rural GA, and the scenario you described happened several times in our area back in the mid to late-80s, before zero tolerance laws and safe zones and school shootings. They were expelled on the spot by principles who were hunters themselves. All the adults I heard talking about it thought it was the right decision, and these were gun-totin’, NRA conservatives. It may have been an accident, but it was a dangerous one, and while the 2nd amendment was held dear by the community, gun safety was taken extremely seriously. A kid careless enough to leave a gun in a vehicle, usually in plain view on a gun rack, wasn’t cut any slack because the risk of a someone breaking into the vehicle posed a huge risk.

By Lee

December 11, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

My, my, how times have changed…

• Back in the 70’s, come deer season, half the vehicles in the parking lot had an old 30-30 or shotgun in them, either in a gun rack in the rear window on laying in the back seat. No big deal back then.

• My old high school had a competition rifle team. We shot .22 calibre rifles on school property.

• Of course, even back then, if I came onto campus with a loaded pistol, I would be dealt with. How severely, I don’t know.

• Zero tolerance. Ya gotta love it. Kid gets expelled for drawing a picture of a gun. But yet, a bus load of complete strangers can come on campus toting ball bats. Go figure.

• Two people get in a fight. One has a knife. The other has a ball bat. Put your money on the ball bat every time.

• I don’t like the “gun free” school zones. Bad guys will ignore it. Good guys make a mistake and get their lives ruined.

• Zero tolerance usually means zero common sense. Principals love it. Means they don’t have to make a decision.

By Lee

December 11, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

Here is the law related to gun free school zones. Yes, there is an exemption for those who work or reside within the 1000’ mark.

So… why have it in the first place?

§ 16-11-127.1. Carrying weapons within school safety zones, at school functions, or on school property

(a) As used in this Code section, the term:

(1) “School safety zone” means in, on, or within 1,000 feet of any real property owned by or leased to any public or private elementary school, secondary school, or school board and used for elementary or secondary education and in, on, or within 1,000 feet of the campus of any public or private technical school, vocational school, college, university, or institution of postsecondary education.

(2) “Weapon” means and includes any pistol, revolver, or any weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, any other knife having a blade of two or more inches, straight-edge razor, razor blade, spring stick, metal knucks, blackjack, any bat, club, or other bludgeon-type weapon, or any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain, or any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or any weapon of like kind, and any stun gun or taser as defined in subsection (a) of Code Section 16-11-106. This paragraph excludes any of these instruments used for classroom work authorized by the teacher.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, it shall be unlawful for any person to carry to or to possess or have under such person’s control while within a school safety zone or at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school any weapon or explosive compound, other than fireworks the possession of which is regulated by Chapter 10 of Title 25. Any person who violates this subsection shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000.00, by imprisonment for not less than two nor more than ten years, or both; provided, however, that upon conviction of a violation of this subsection involving a firearm as defined in paragraph (2) of subsection (a) of Code Section 16-11-131, or a dangerous weapon or machine gun as defined in Code Section 16-11-121, such person shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000.00 or by imprisonment for a period of not less than five nor more than ten years, or both. A child who violates this subsection shall be subject to the provisions of Code Section 15-11-63.

(c) The provisions of this Code section shall not apply to:

(1) Baseball bats, hockey sticks, or other sports equipment possessed by competitors for legitimate athletic purposes;

(2) Participants in organized sport shooting events or firearm training courses;

(3) Persons participating in military training programs conducted by or on behalf of the armed forces of the United States or the Georgia Department of Defense;

(4) Persons participating in law enforcement training conducted by a police academy certified by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council or by a law enforcement agency of the state or the United States or any political subdivision thereof;

(5) The following persons, when acting in the performance of their official duties or when en route to or from their official duties:

(6) A person who has been authorized in writing by a duly authorized official of the school to have in such person’s possession or use as part of any activity being conducted at a school building, school property, or school function a weapon which would otherwise be prohibited by this Code section. Such authorization shall specify the weapon or weapons which have been authorized and the time period during which the authorization is valid;

(7) A person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10, when such person carries or picks up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school or any weapon legally kept within a vehicle in transit through a designated school zone by any person other than a student;

(8) A weapon which is in a locked compartment of a motor vehicle or one which is in a locked container in or a locked firearms rack which is on a motor vehicle which is being used by an adult over 21 years of age to bring to or pick up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school, or when such vehicle is used to transport someone to an activity being conducted on school property which has been authorized by a duly authorized official of the school; provided, however, that this exception shall not apply to a student attending such school;

(9) Persons employed in fulfilling defense contracts with the government of the United States or agencies thereof when possession of the weapon is necessary for manufacture, transport, installation, and testing under the requirements of such contract;

(10) Those employees of the State Board of Pardons and Paroles when specifically designated and authorized in writing by the members of the State Board of Pardons and Paroles to carry a weapon;

(11) The Attorney General and those members of his or her staff whom he or she specifically authorizes in writing to carry a weapon;

(12) Probation supervisors employed by and under the authority of the Department of Corrections pursuant to Article 2 of Chapter 8 of Title 42, known as the “State-wide Probation Act,” when specifically designated and authorized in writing by the director of the Division of Probation;

(13) Public safety directors of municipal corporations;

(14) State and federal trial and appellate judges;

(15) United States attorneys and assistant United States attorneys;

(16) Clerks of the superior courts; or

(17) Teachers and other school personnel who are otherwise authorized to possess or carry weapons, provided that any such weapon is in a locked compartment of a motor vehicle or one which is in a locked container in or a locked firearms rack which is on a motor vehicle. (d)(1) This Code section shall not prohibit any person who resides or works in a business or is in the ordinary course transacting lawful business or any person who is a visitor of such resident located within a school safety zone from carrying, possessing, or having under such person’s control a weapon within a school safety zone; provided, however, it shall be unlawful for any such person to carry, possess, or have under such person’s control while at a school building or school function or on school property, a school bus, or other transportation furnished by the school any weapon or explosive compound, other than fireworks the possession of which is regulated by Chapter 10 of Title 25.

(2) Any person who violates this subsection shall be subject to the penalties specified in subsection (b) of this Code section.

(3) This subsection shall not be construed to waive or alter any legal requirement for possession of weapons or firearms otherwise required by law.

(e) It shall be no defense to a prosecution for a violation of this Code section that:

(1) School was or was not in session at the time of the offense;

(2) The real property was being used for other purposes besides school purposes at the time of the offense; or

(3) The offense took place on a school vehicle.

(f) In a prosecution under this Code section, a map produced or reproduced by any municipal or county agency or department for the purpose of depicting the location and boundaries of the area on or within 1,000 feet of the real property of a school board or a private or public elementary or secondary school that is used for school purposes or within 1,000 feet of any campus of any public or private technical school, vocational school, college, university, or institution of postsecondary education, or a true copy of the map, shall, if certified as a true copy by the custodian of the record, be admissible and shall constitute prima-facie evidence of the location and boundaries of the area, if the governing body of the municipality or county has approved the map as an official record of the location and boundaries of the area. A map approved under this Code section may be revised from time to time by the governing body of the municipality or county. The original of every map approved or revised under this subsection or a true copy of such original map shall be filed with the municipality or county and shall be maintained as an official record of the municipality or county. This subsection shall not preclude the prosecution from introducing or relying upon any other evidence or testimony to establish any element of this offense. This subsection shall not preclude the use or admissibility of a map or diagram other than the one which has been approved by the municipality or county.

(g) A county school board may adopt regulations requiring the posting of signs designating the areas within 1,000 feet of school boards and private or public elementary and secondary schools as “Weapon-free and Violence-free School Safety Zones.”

HISTORY: Code 1981, § 16-11-127.1, enacted by Ga. L. 1992, p. 1315, § 2; Ga. L. 1994, p. 543, § 1; Ga. L. 1994, p. 547, § 1; Ga. L. 1994, p. 1012, § 4; Ga. L. 1995, p. 10, § 16; Ga. L. 1999, p. 362, § 1; Ga. L. 2000, p. 20, § 6; Ga. L. 2000, p. 1630, § 4; Ga. L. 2003, p. 140, § 16.

By SET

December 11, 2007 7:21 PM | Link to this

I like Lee’s comment. In a different world if a kid had his gun in his vehicle and the principal found out about it they could just compare guns - the principal would have his in the office closet.

That world is gone and it’s not coming back.

In the urban CA schools there are guns all over town. The San Francisco Chronicle newspaper is now doing a series about the mortality rate of black male youth - this Sunday there was a front page photo of a black male teenager cadaver on a autopsy table. (Never seen such a photo in a major CA paper before least of all on the front page.) I believe the SF paper is largely writing about Oakland CA (across the bay) which has a phenominal death rate of black boys from “lead poisoning”.

Our urban schools can’t have guns brought in by the students. Thus the zero tolerance policy - which I normally don’t approve of. The schools have made a policy decision that if the students can’t get that rule right they don’t want to work with such a student anymore. They are expelled and do to the ghetto continuation school and if they get kicked out of that they go to a locked day school where they body search the kids or whatever.

It’s their schools. I see their point.

One important point the Chronicle series of articles made - the teens commonly have handguns which are collectively owned and hidden in hiding places in abandoned houses or basements. The communal gun(s) are available whenever a teen feels the need to commit a murder or an assault, largely to make a point involving respect or wounded pride.

The teens can arm themselves very quickly whenever they feel insulted and in need of emotional support.

These boys are largely raised by women - thus the rouge elephant syndrome.

Prison awaits. We try teen children as adults for gun violence. And the penalties are life altering even if they don’t kill - 10 yrs added for carrying a gun during a crime, 20 for pulling the trigger even if you don’t hit someone, and 25 to life added to the crime if you hit someone with a bullet regardless if how injured they are. This is added to the underlying crime sentence which could be as low as 16 months for grand theft or minor felony.

My family always had handguns in the home and I shot bottles off a log at age 5 with everybody else. We were not allowed to play with them but they were never locked up. My neighbors growing up were generally armed. I have a loaded handgun in my home and so do most of my friends. Carry permits are not rare in this part of CA although they are rare in major urban (democratic controlled) areas which prefer their citizens be disarmed and criminals armed.

I prefer Florida’s policy where universal armament and carry policy is such that you never know if someone walking down the street is legally armed. An armed society is a polite society.

Much of the proletariat is legally disarmed because of automatic gun prohibition for common misdemeanors and all felonies.

By V for Vendetta

December 11, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

Holy crap, there are some asinine answers to this one popping up … .

Look, I’ll be honest here: I’m pro-gun, I’m pro second amendment (which can be hard these days, what with all the shootings and all), but what I’m NOT is pro guns anywhere in the same freaking time zone as a school. OK, a bit over the top I know, but let’s get real here. Guns have NO place anywhere around a school — PERIOD.

Jeff and Lee, drop the macho posturing. I may be pro-gun, but I can’t STAND when people assert things like:

“Well, maybe if there had been someone with a gun there Virginia Tech never would have happened.”

“You know, maybe if there was someone in that mall there, that shooting never would have happened.”

“Perhaps if there was someone with a 50 cal. sniper rifle there, World War II never would have happened.”

Look, that kid just shot up a mall, a PUBLIC PLACE, and I didn’t see loads of men running to the front lines, guns drawn, to stop him.

Lee, your comparison to baseball bats was especially silly. Look, I’m a big guy, and I’m pretty sure I could make a convincing argument for wielding a stapler as a weapon, but that doesn’t mean ANYONE, at ANY TIME, should have a gun on a school campus. The only person allowed to carry a firearm on a school campus is a cop — end of story.

As men, we’d all like to play the “what if” game and pretend that we would ninja kick the bad guys into submission and then save the known universe. The truth is (hopefully), we would do what most people do in that situation: we’d get as many people to safety as possible and get the he11 out of there.

Yes, it’s true, “zero tolerance” is a spineless way for principals to avoid decision making — counties, too. That having been said, as a teacher, I’d rather have a rigid law in place than a flaccid wet noodle proviso.

Enough with the macho crap. No guns in, around, near, on, (insert preposition of choice here) schools.

By catlady

December 11, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

Hey, Lee, you gave me a laugh (bus load of complete strangers on campus with bats)—thanks!

SET, you did too. Did you really mean rouge elephants? Is that lady elephants with blush on? Whether you did or didn’t mean it, it gave me a belly laugh. And actually I have seen some big ole mamas come down to the school and try to take a poke at anyone they think dissed their child.

The reason for zero tolerance is NOT the spineless administrators. It is because of parents who demand that their child had extenuating circumstances behind his assault of another kid, and thus should not be punished. So if you want to blame someone, blame the parents. Professional educators would love to use their discretion, but too many people said that it was race, class, etc. driving the decisions. Now everyone is tarred with the same brush.

By Lee

December 11, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this

V, macho posturing???

Here’s my point about the ball bat. Zero tolerance weapons policies have gotten Eagle Scouts expelled for camp axes in the bed of a truck, honor students expelled for a steak knife, and nine year olds expelled for tweety bird keychains. But yet, we freely allow a ball bat onto campus. A ball bat which is a much more lethal weapon than a common pocket knife.

Most of us can rationalize about the gun free zones. They were taken to the extreme after one of the school shootings. They may have had good intentions. What’s that saying, the road to He11 is paved with good intentions.

BTW, churches shouldn’t have to have security guards either, but that security guard put the gunman down and saved countless lives in Colorado.

By SET

December 12, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this

Catlady: That’s rogue elephants… Typos creep in as I type on the fly between dealing with things on this end.

I’m following the SF Chronicle series, you can find it online. The photo of the boy on the autopsy table is chilling. I wonder if the writers will discuss the role of Oakland Unified School District in the death tally.

Or perhaps I’m the only one who believes the public school system is supposed to exist to prevent some of this chaos from happening.

I know the parents are defectives. I still think a strong public school system can take ghetto children and prepare them for military service, maid service, honest work or higher ed.

But you might have to break the ghetto dwellers’ self esteem first and the libs in the SF Bay Area don’t want any of that. Even if the student’s families are trash, the students don’t have to be.

Brave New World.

By Larry

December 12, 2007 6:05 AM | Link to this

Does Cobb have a lot of seventh graders old enough to drive?

This kid was carrying concealed AND on school property. Even if he has a Georgia Firearms License (now we have 21 year olds in seventh grade) it wasn’t legal.

This is a law enforcement issue. It really doesn’t matter what school policy says, what this kid did wasn’t legal.

I wish people would stop using public schools to enforce laws; they are not trained or equipped to handle these situations.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 7:20 AM | Link to this

Larry,

Finally a voice of reason on this blog topic. I was wondering if anyone would speak on the legallity of this issue or not. This student actually committed a FELONY and should be charged and tried as an adult for his actions.

I am one of the staunchest supporters of our liberties in this country,(including our right to bear arms) but we are not talking about tweetie bird key chains here folks we are talking about a carrying a loaded/concealed weapon without leagl authorization. Duh, you or I as adults can be imprisoned for doing this in just about every state in the country, forget that it happened in a school.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 7:46 AM | Link to this

Larry,

one point though.

The supremes were the ones that ruled that schools have not only a right but an obligation to enforce laws.(one case that comes to mind is one that happened locally back in the early 70’s, I believe it was FRANKLIN v. GWINNETT COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS)??

By jim d

December 12, 2007 7:52 AM | Link to this

Lee,

As to the lethal base ball bats. Anyone bringing one to a gun fight wouldn’t have much of a chance.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

Larry,

one last comment on schools having trained people on staff to enforce laws.

many states if not all require applicants to qualify as a School Resource Officer Practitioner and have the following requirements:

The individual must have been employed as a certified law enforcement officer for a minimum of two years.

The officer must have successfully completed the SRO Basic Training Course (40 hours).

The officer must have completed an additional 90 hours of law enforcement courses applicable to the role of a SRO obtained through courses offered by the state.

It would appear to me that these individuals are highly trained.

By Vicki

December 12, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

As a mom of a middle schooler in a nearby county, I want to know where this kid going to go to school now?

By V for Vendetta

December 12, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this

Whew, thank you Larry and JimD for appearing and adding some freaking sense to this topic. Like JimD said, I, too, amd I all for personal liberties and people’s rights, but this kid committed a CRIME. A FELONY no less. There is no excuse for his actions. Period.

Too bad one of the admins or the SRO didn’t ninja kick him into submission, though. I would have liked to see that. Ninja kicks all around!

Lee, we all know about the idiots who try to kick kids out of school for having a tweety bird key chain or what not, but that is a far cry from having an AXE in the back of your car. Sure, the kid who had a knife in his glove box got a raw deal, but the rule is in place to protect kids. I wish the admins and county boards would use a little more common sense when the case comes before the inevitable discipline panel, but them’s the rules.

Besides, this is nothing new. Heck, when I was in school here in metro Atlanta, I knew that having anything that could even be construed as a weapon on campus was one of the “seven deadlies” as my old principal used to say. It’s not hard to NOT have a weapon on campus. There’s an exception to every rule, Lee. That’s why they’re called exceptions.

By Jeff

December 12, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

jimD, V, and Larry:

Note what I said earlier: If the weapon is in the car, away from students, it poses no danger. Confiscate it, bring the kid to the Principal’s office, and send him (and the weapon) home.

If the weapon is either inside the school or on the person of a student on school property, I consider it an imminent lethal threat and I say shoot to kill on sight.

Even better, for my ‘hunter-forgot-to-take-gun-out-of-car-before-coming-to-school’ scenario, have a guarded gate that ALL must go through, similar to what military bases have. Search the car (cursory). If you find a weapon, send the person home without allowing them on the grounds in the first place.

At that point, I would consider any weapon that made it onto school grounds an imminent lethal threat, and I would say anything between permanent expulsion and shoot to kill is authorized.

My primary concern here is that we don’t permantently penalize kids that would have no intention of hurting anything not on four legs because they made a stupid mistake and forgot to take the gun out of the car.

(Oh, BTW: My scenario of simply turning them around and sending them home at the gate is something that actually happened to ME at the alternative school. I had put my pocket knife in my pocket not thinking about it one day. At this school, you had to empty your pockets after walking in the door and submit to a wand metal detector in front of the ISS teacher (who was administering it), the Principal, and a secretary. When we saw the pocket knife, they simply told me to go home and put it in my house and come back. I did, and nothing else was ever said about it. No harm, no foul.)

By V for Vendetta

December 12, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Sorry Jeff, maybe in alterna-world that would work, but not in this little thing called “real life.”

We all make mistakes, sure, but forgetting to take a LETHAL WEAPON out of a car is a slightly bigger mistake than a slap on the wrist is appropriate for. I don’t care if it IS an accident; if you’re going to handle firearms (or any type of lethal weapon), then you must be more responsible than responsible. You must be uber-responsible, over-the-top safe, and more-than-the-next-guy concientious.

That’s how my dad taught me, and I don’t remember ever forgetting my guns in my trunk, glove box, or anywhere else. That’s just a stupid excuse.

We have enough excuses in society these days, we don’t need any excuses when it comes to weapons.

By Richard

December 12, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

jim d,

Congrats, you are the first fool to compare a ball bat to a gun. When the ball bat was originally brought up, it was compared to a pocket knife. It was a brilliant idea. Yours sounded like one of the foolish calls to Neal Boortz saying, “Not everybody…”

Lee, As a side note. When I was in school I had a friend who was having a squabble with a bully. As tensions mounted of many days, he heard that the bully was going to jump him as he walked home from school. So, he took another route home and avoided it. The bully had the regular group of spectators. While they waited for the victim to arrive, the bully was showing off a large knife. Word of this got back to my friend, so he prepared himself for school the next day.

After school the next day, while walking home, my friend gets shoved to the ground from behind. He then pulls out the 12 inch pieces of iron pipe he had rubber banded to his forearms. He knocks the bully’s feet out from under him and proceeds to beat him within an inch of his life. He was arrested and sent to reform school. But the bully’s parents did NOT press charges. That probably had to do with the statement he made to the effect of, “I didn’t mean to hurt him that bad. I was scared and adrenaline took over. I’m just glad I didn’t bring my dad’s gun like I originally considered. I was thinking that I would only have to show the gun, but with the pipes I’d have to use them. But now that I know what adrenaline does, I’m afraid of what would have happened with that gun.”

Lee, I image that a 42 inch 36 ounce bat would do even more damage than a 12 inch piece on natural gas line.

By V for Vendetta

December 12, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Richard, JimD didn’t bring up the bat, Lee did. And your friend is a coward.

Using a weapon, when the other person is unarmed, is just about the most cowardly thing I can think of. I don’t care how big the other guy is.

Maybe your friend should have been a man, stood his ground, and fought the best way he could think to fight — with his fists. Instead, he just sounds like an opportunist and a gutless wimp. Great story. Why did he beat the kid with a pipe when the bully was unarmed? (You mention a knife, but not when the actual attack happened.)

By JustMe

December 12, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

jim d sounds like Boortz folks…. Hummmmmm - it all seems to make sense to me now.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Richard,

But you’re not the first fool failing to realize bats are legal—-loaded / concealed hand guns generally aren’t.

If you’d wish to change that and make concealed hand guns an equipment item for the sport of football, I’d bet you’d get a huge amount of support from some of the football booster clubs that would give anything for a victory.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Obviously where we differ is in opinion. weapon is in the car, away from students, poses no danger.?

I’m afraid it posses an immanent danger. Just how long would it take any student to break the class in a vehicle enabling them to wield a loaded weapon?

Bottom line Jeff, IT’S THE LAW. Don’t like it? Work to change it—— but in the mean time I suggest we all ABIDE with it!!

By jim d

December 12, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

JM,

IT WOULD!

By jim d

December 12, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

JM,

You truly are a master of disambiguation. One who defies what Darwin described as “natural selection” and what Herbert Spencer referred to as “survival of the fitest”.

Please consider (upon your demise) donating your body to science. For I am confident that you alone may be capable of disproving the theory of evolution.

By JustMe

December 12, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I want to ensure that no weapons are allowed on school grounds at all - and that includes in the parking lot. I don’t care if the gun is locked in the trunk, it simply doesn’t need to be there, period, end of discussion.

In case any adults don’t know, kids tend to be knee jerk in their actions/reactions and rarely think through their actions or consider the consequences. Even in high school, students will blurt out something on thier mind and then immediately realize that what they said makes no sense, but it is too late. When a weapon is readily available to immature kids it is very very dangerous - they could pull the trigger and then it is too late. One cannot ‘undo’ a death.

In (almost) every instance when someone says that they brought in a weapon for ‘protection’ they obviously weren’t too worried about their protection because they didn’t say anything to an adult (teacher, administrator, or at least their parent). Including an adult would/should allow for a rational mature person to deflate the issue before it gets out of hand. In any case, a weapon at school is not the answer!

I don’t care if little Johnny ‘forgot’ that he had a loaded pistol in his pocket. I don’t care if Sally ‘forgot’ she had a pocket knife in her purse. I don’t care if Tom was fishing the night before and had a hunting knife in his car. There is no excuse, period.

All students and all parents should be very well of the law by now. It is printed in every student handbook and/or code of conduct. It has been on the TV news. It has been in the newspaper. There simply is no excuse.

Not adhereing to this law is major. And, there should be major consequences. Cobb County did the right thing (did I really just type that?).

By jim d

December 12, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Larry,

Perhaps I was wrong.

When we have teachers making comments like this, “As a teacher, I want to ensure that no weapons are allowed on school grounds at all”, you might be correct in saying ” I wish people would stop using public schools to enforce laws; they are not trained or equipped to handle these situations.”

By Tony

December 12, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

REgarding educators enforcing laws: we sign an oath along with our annual contracts. The oath affirms our allegiance to support the constitutions of the state and nation, and the laws of the state and nation. If we do not enforce the laws, we are subject to loss of our license.

By jim d

December 12, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

Tony,

that would be well and good if y’all were aware 1) of what the laws are and 2)if you had recieved the training that a law enforcement officer had.

The point being that many if not all teachers have recieved neither and yet you are signing an agreement to enforce that which you have little knowledge of. Hmm, sounds like a law suit, waiting to happen, for violating someones rights,especially since more than a few teachers here do not believe students have ANY rights.

By Lee

December 12, 2007 8:20 PM | Link to this

Egads Holmes, I’ve done it again…

I make a simple comparision and by the time I read all these responses, I’m thinking “What the hell was I talking about?”

I brought up the ball bat for one reason. That is, kids, good kids, not troublemakers, are getting in trouble for bringing everyday items to school. We have a law in place creating weapons free school zones. However, this law allows a ball bat, which is probably one step below a firearm in terms of lethality, to be brought onto school grounds.

A simple penknife will get a student put into jail but another student can carry a ball bat with impunity.

Now, I’m not advocating outlawing ball bats from school, I’m just saying a little common sense needs to be used here.

By Tony

December 12, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this

Jim D, enforcement of the law at the level of involving police action and court is not what we do. Teachers and administrators do not have to have law degrees, criminal justice degrees, or POST certifications to understand what our jobs entail regarding enforcement of the law.

By V for Vendetta

December 13, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

THIS JUST IN

Schools in Walton (I believe) were shut down on alert when two boys were seen walking down the street with shotguns across their arms. Their excuse: They were out hunting in the morning.

In my book, this is NOT an excuse, and the kids should feel the full effects of the law. Only a complete moron doesn’t know where his local schools are, and only a complete moron would bring anything even resembling a gun near one. I don’t care if it was an honest mistake; I say drag them across the coals.

Until people are actually held accountable for their actions, we will continue to have the same problems as a profession, a society, and as a country. We live in a pathetic time right now, where parents complain when their kids are disciplines for breaking rules; where people see something they want, so they decide to steal it; where human life is valued little if at all.

I say nail these two morons to the wall. Because of their age, and the fact that they really weren’t doing anything violent, they should get a major slap on the wrist, community service, and possibly a little time in the YDC. Fine. Good.

It’s called “life”. You learn from your mistakes. I bet they’ll never even dream of doing something like this again. Accepting the consequences for your actions? Imagine that.

By jim d

December 13, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this

V,

You might be jumping the gun a little. :-)

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14831026/detail.html

By jim d

December 13, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

Tony,

As a young man graduating from high school over 40 years ago I elected to forego a formal college education (while having a free ride) and took up a trade that I am still active in today. One thing I learned along the way was that I would continue to learn and swore to make it a goal to learn at least one thing every day.

Today you have provided my opportunity to learn something I suspected but didn’t really know. You have my sincere thanks.

Allow me to share what I’ve learned today.

Unless Ga. Teachers contracts have changed since 1997 (latest rev. I was able to find) the oath that y’all sign simply states;

“I,_______________, a citizen of _______ and being an employee of ______________ and the recipient of public funds for services rendered as such employee, do hereby solemnly swear and affirm that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of Georgia.”

The key word here being support.

Support used in this context means to uphold or defend as valid or right. In my opinion support in this instance could be teachers simply abiding by the tenets set forth in these documents. This would constitute support.

I would also note that there is no mention of enforcing laws. The very documents you have sworn to support nowhere mentions that teachers have a responsibility to enforce laws (see article VIII of the Ga. Constitution.)

Tony, to reiterate most teachers are not trained nor or they equipped to enforce the law. I don’t believe anyone really expects y’all to confront and disarm an armed student. I really don’t believe that is or was the intent of the oath y’all sign.

Granted I may be taking the word enforce a bit literally, however I am using Webster’sdefinition which generally includes the use of force.

Again, I thank you and hope you are having a blessed holiday season.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

The Walton County situation only emphasizes my point.

Mass hysteria over NOTHING. The kids didn’t even bring the guns on campus!!!!

Again: If the weapon is on campus, ON THE PERSON, shoot to kill.

If the weapon is on campus in the car, confiscate the weapon, get a parent on campus, and send both the weapon and the kid home under parent custody.

If you spot a kid walking towards the school with a weapon, send him home and tell him to put the weapon up, then come back. (I might allow for a police escort to make sure this happens… just in case.)

By threedeep

December 13, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this

I have a question that is a little off topic, I am sure most of you are familiar with the 6 high school students that went on a crime spree during Thanksgiving. The school is now looking at possibly disciplining them, I did not know a school could discipline a student for illegal activity done off campus. If the legal process places them in jail, then of course they will not be in school. I do not think much is going to happen anyway, when close to 150 cars are broken into and the kids are only charged with 11 counts which I do not believe are felonies.

Side note; do you think if a gang of kids in South Fulton or the City of Atlanta had broken into 150 cars it would be looked upon as “youthful fun” and “a bad decision by good kids”? Let’s be honest. Would the AJC devote a whole story on a teen from Clayton county that illegally gave prescription drugs to another student in hopes to get her off with a slap on the wrist? Just wondering aloud….

By jim d

December 13, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

In this case the system worked as it should. Ms. Mcknight reorted it and the police responded as they should. The weapon was not on campus nor apparently within the weapon free zone and no one really got in any trouble. It could easily have been a problem though and the responses were well handled.

By V for Vendetta

December 13, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

JimD,

Thanks for the clarification. Early reports said they might have been in the school zone, but apparently that was not the case. Since they were not in the zone, you are absolutely correct: the response was appropriate and proportionate.

Jeff,

Seriously dude, I try to remain calm and collected when dealing with ignorance, but this is getting a bit silly. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GUNS! GUNS IN THE HANDS OF STUDENTS! There is no acceptable excuse, reason, or act of divine intervention that can explain having a gun in a school zone. I don’t know how, as a former teacher, you can even begin to consider giving a kid a break when dealing with firearms. All a loophole does in that situation is allow a kid to be like: “uh, yeah I ‘forgot’ it was in there, sure, ‘forgot’ … “

C’mon man, get a grip! And enough of this “shoot to kill” crap. Yes, we all know you’re soooooo tough. Sorry, normally I ignore this kind of silliness, but I’m just a little tired of hearing it today.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

Jim:

No, the response was FAR OVERBLOWN. It is the equivalent of sending a III nuclear missile (capable of putting around 1 megaton of nuclear detonation on target) after a mouse.

What happened here was that thousands of people were frightened, possibly traumatized by the fear, over two kids walking on the side of the road. The weapons never made it to campus, and were never intended to be brought on campus. At MOST, the two kids in question were a possible danger to people driving down that road. And even THAT is debatable!!!

By jim d

December 13, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Your inability or unwillingness to recognize the potential danger here amazes me. But I do respect your opinon regardless of how wrong you are. :)

HAGD

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

V:

Even as a former teacher, I know enough about tactics/ scenarios to know that a gun in a car poses no danger (ok, minimal may be a better word). A gun in the building, I consider a much more viable threat.

At most HS’s I know, student access to their cars is SEVERELY limited during the day, and anyone caught in the parking lot faces a decently severe penalty. I can support that. I could even open up my position on guns in the car to allow for a semester long expulsion if a student is found in the parking lot during school hours and a weapon is found in his car. Even if he was going to grab his Physics book he forgot, I would be willing to say that it could be reasonably assumed that he posed a danger at that point because there was a weapon in his car, regardless of stated intent for being in the parking lot.

Any gun owner out there knows that a gun out of arm’s reach is useless, and that the further it is away and the more difficult it is to get to, the more useless it becomes. In the post-Columbine HS world, a gun in a locked car in a parking lot is about as little of a threat as you’re going to come by. I consider the normal American teenager a MUCH more serious threat WITHOUT a weapon than one with a gun locked in his car.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

jim:

The keyword in your last is potential.

Live much?

We LIVE in a world of ‘potential’ danger. Nearly every move you make every day has the POTENTIAL to kill you.

Yet we don’t lock down an entire school system because someone is plugging in a light, do we?

Heck, any of those cars in the parking lot hold the POTENTIAL for ramming through a door and running over more people than have EVER been killed in school shooting.

Yet we don’t lock down an entire school system because some 16yo that just got their driver’s liscence is having a hard time parking, do we?

What about the visiting baseball team? This is a BUSLOAD of strangers with BASEBALL BATS. As Lee has pointed out, assuming no guns are on campus, these are the next most deadly weapon - and we allow them on campus freely and openly. We don’t lock down an entire school system because the baseball team from two counties over is on campus. Do we?

Wait.. Oklahoma City was a delivery-style truck. The very same kind that bring the supplies to the cafeteria nearly every day (as well as office supplies and other materials). Do we shut down an entire school system because a delivery truck is on campus?

And in EACH of the aboev scenarios, the weapon was ON CAMPUS. In the Walton County scenario, the entire school system was shut down because two idiots were walking along the side of the road!!!!

By SET

December 13, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

Have the readership considered that “gun free” zones are in fact killing zones for any predator that wants to go there and take pot shots at people?

Maybe your state is some kind of peaceful Disneyland, but around here the general rule is that criminals are armed, period. Gang members are armed, on drugs, and pretty deranged. They are always in court and the jails have collapsed, they know it. We have mass releases of criminals from our county jail daily (due to court ordered limits on jail population) and the State of CA is facing likely court ordered mass release from the state prisons.

I’m not (yet) saying that schoolchildren need to be armed. I am saying that armed guards are required on the campus of any CA urban high school to have any peace of mind sending your kids there.

It’s not the lone crazed gunman we are worried about, it is the everyday gang member, their friends and enemies, and out-of-control narcissistic male angry at being “dissed” we worry about.

Maybe this hasn’t happened in your town yet. Good for you.

The same policy goes on in our Jr Colleges which is where most of the prole education actually takes place nowadays. All of them have uniformed & armed police departments with Tasers - and sometime dogs roaming the campus. They protect the students, staff and the automobiles (major problems with auto burgs and thefts). Our Jr Colleges can have campuses of 20,000 students going till 10pm. There would be no school without the resident police force.

By DirtyBird

December 13, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Did that article state the kids “stashed” the gun in the woods. Now that’s people who should be carrying firearms… I’ll just hide this loaded shotgun here and come back and get it later…

The right to bear arms and georgia law does not give you the right to walk down a public road with a shotgun…walk down peachtree rd with a shotgun and see what happens…

who the hell goes a huntin before school anyway…

By jim d

December 13, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Life teaches us many things. Among the things I’ve learned over the years (maybe the most important) is to just say Yes Dear!, when I realize a discussion is leading nowhere.

So Jeff——Yes Dear!

By jim d

December 13, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

“The right to bear arms and georgia law does not give you the right to walk down a public road with a shotgun”

Indeed it does.

By a reader

December 13, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Jeff…Kids and guns without responsible adult supervision are a bad mix. They proved it themselves by not securing the gun after use. So, they may know how to operate the weapon, but they sure do not understand gun safety. The school system did not over react.

Are you saying these kids did the responsible thing, hiding the gun in the woods? No, the responsible thing would have been to bring it home and lock it away. If that would have made them late for school, tough. Face the consequence for not doing the right thing in the first place. There is no excuse for anyone, other than law enforcement, to ever have a gun anywhere on school property.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

reader:

I’m saying the proper response in this scenario would have played out like this:

Concerned citizen driving down the road sees kid carrying gun walking toward school. Citizen calls 911, reports what he has seen.

911 locates the nearest patrol car and tells them to book it to this location and ask the kids what they are doing.

Nearest patrol car arrives, spots kid carrying gun walking toward school. Officer steps out of vehicle, draws gun and orders kid to drop gun. As long as kid is compliant, cop asks kid what he is doing, where he is going, etc. Cop finds out kid has just been hunting and is about to be late for school. Cop takes kid home and has him secure the weapon in the house. Cop then drives kid back to school.

Cop files report, noting kid’s name and address.

Later that night, night shift secretary gives parents a call and reads cop’s report to parent, just to advise them of what happened.

School system never finds out. Kid wasn’t on school property, and therefore wasn’t the school system’s concern at the time.

No harm, no foul, and most importantly, NO MASS HYSTERIA.

By V for Vendetta

December 13, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I don’t want to get in a verbal war with you, but I really hope that you are more mature in real life than you seem on this blog. The fact that you can’t grasp the difference between something like a gun (sole purpose for creation: to kill) and a car (sole purpose for creation: transportation) simply baffles me. All of the items you suggested CAN be used as a weapon, but a gun can ONLY be used as a weapon. Big difference.

Like I said, I’m not going to debate someone who can’t seem to understand logic. As Polyphemus said: “You are a ninny, or else you come from the other end of nowhere.”

You just can’t reason with people like that. I’m all done.

By Joy in Teaching

December 13, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Um….Jeff.

Walton County teacher here.

The entire school system DID NOT SHUT DOWN. My school sure didn’t. Five schools did shut down for three hours, however, because two armed people were seen by a motorist in the vicinity of a school.

In my opinion, locking down the schools until the two people with guns were located was a completely reasonable response especially if it was to make sure that no maliciousness was going on there. We were very lucky that it didn’t. We like to feel as if our children in Walton are too precious to gamble with.

I’m sure that the good people living near Columbine would have loved to have been given the chance to spot two armed gunmen near that school on that fateful day and report it. Maybe it would have changed history.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Joy:

Unless they were already on school property - I may allow if they were already within the ‘halo’ - there was NO REASON to inform the school system and cause mass panic. Send a patrol car or two to intercept them, and proceed as I indicated earlier.

In my mind, it is all about ‘relative danger’. Two kids with a shotgun are NOT a danger to a school EVEN ON THE FRINGE OF THE HALO. The car driven onto campus by a 16yo that just got his liscence is MUCH more of a threat. (Especially these insane parents that give their kids 4x4s with 8” lifts for their 16th birthday!)

My position is simple: Either lock down school COMPLETELY, so that NOTHING ‘dangerous’ is allowed on campus, or be reasonable about the ‘danger’ posed by things.

Even with a .50 cal sniper rifle, your ‘normal’ teen sniping someone on school grounds is a 1 in a thousand shot - at best. (Using ‘one shot, one kill’ as my definition of ‘sniping’.)

HOWEVER, even my ‘94 2 door Civic could probably bust down the door and run over some people in the main entrance of MOST schools I’ve been in.

Again, yet we allow teens with cars on campus every day…

By jim d

December 13, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

your scenario leaves out one little factor jeff,

Time the cops get there children aren’t to be found. What next? forget about it or do the reasonable thing of locking down the schools they were seen near until they can be located?

I’m afraid sir, you’re just being difficult today.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

jim:

OK, appropriate reaction from the school supposing a ‘suspicious person’ is near the school and has yet to be located by the cops:

Put admin/security staff/janitors (all of whom have radios as part of their job anyway) on the perimeter of the grounds. Once the person in question is spotted, they radio in to the office, who then radios to both the security staff of the school and the local PD. Security staff and PD respond as indicated earlier.

Students and teachers NEVER know, as they were NEVER in any danger.

Situation handled. No harm, no foul, and no mass panic.

By jim d

December 13, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Son,

Have you read the reports or listened to the news?

Hell, they didn’t find the kids until they were already in school.

Had they taken the gun in don’t ya think it would’ve been just a little bit late to throw up a parameter defense? That’d be like closing the barn door after the cows got out.

By jim d

December 13, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You decide here my friend.

Mass panic?

or

mass dead students?

Which would you prefer?

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Jim:

If the kids were found AFTER they were in school, WITHOUT the gun, refer to my original point about guns in cars. (And actually, in this case, I would probably just give them a warning and an assurance that if they EVER brought it on campus, they would be dealt with the UTMOST severity. After all, they never actually brought the gun on campus in this situation.)

And BTW: The only report on this I’ve seen is the WSBTV article you posted this morning, which was rather skimpy on details.

By Joy in Teaching

December 13, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

• FACT: Brenda Ann Spencer killed eight people at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, California on January 29, 1979.

• FACT: Eighth-grader David F. Lawler shot two of his classmates then killed himself at Parkway Sough Junior High School in St. Louis in January 20, 1983.

• FACT: Eric Houston held 80 students hostage in a classroom on the second floor of the school’s C building after opening up fire at Lindhurst High School in Yuba County, CA in 1992. He killed 3 students and a teacher and wounded many others in his rampage.

• FACT: Jamie Rouse, age 17, killed two and seriously wounded another at Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee on November 15, 1995.

• FACT: Mitchell Johnson, age 13, and Andrew Golden, age 11, killed four female students and a teacher and wounded ten others at Jonesboro Middle School in Craighead County, Arkansas, on March 24, 1998.

• FACT: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed twelve students and a teacher and wounded 23 others before committing suicide at Columbine High School in Jefferson County, Colorado on April 20, 1999.

And those are just a few of the school shootings that have occurred in the United States in the past century. The worst school disaster in the United States had nothing to do with a gun, but a bomb. On May 18, 1927, Andrew Kehoe (a school board member) planted three bombs in Bath Township in Michigan which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades. He was upset by a recent vote for property taxes which he felt would lead to the foreclosure of his farm.

I haven’t been able to find any incidences on school campuses where students rammed the building with a car in order to kill others, although it probably did happen somewhere.

Jeff, I do think that you just aren’t thinking rationally today.

By jim d

December 13, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Do ya know how to google? Some people get upset when I provide links.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Joy:

In each and every single instance you named, the gun was found on the person of the student in question. (Clearly!!)

In such an instance, my point has been consistent: Shoot to kill.

Once the gun is FOUND IN THE DIRECT POSSESSION of the student, I really don’t care what you do with the student. By ‘direct possession’, I mean on the person of or in the locker of. And the only reason I allow for in the locker of is because most schools don’t really restrict a student going to their locker, nor is it a suspicious activity. Meaning that a weapon hidden in a locker poses an imminent threat, as it could be used at any moment.

My point of contention all along has been weapons found AWAY from a student’s direct possession, as I do not view these weapons as threats until they come into the direct possession of someone.

Point blank: A gun in a car is NOT a threat to ANYONE until the student gets in the car.

By Jeff

December 13, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Joy:

BTW: No one (except Tom Clancy) thought of a passenger airplane as a dangerous weapon until September 11, 2001….

By jim d

December 13, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Yo jeff,

And an open container in a vehicle posses no real danger either—right?

IT IS SIMPLY THE LAW!, so get over it or work to change it and quit telling us it posses no danger.

By jim d

December 13, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

Thanks Bridget!

By HB

December 13, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

Ok, so I read about the Walton thing and read everyone’s comments here, and here’s where I’m confused. Jeff, where did anything say that the lockdown caused mass panic? It’s my understanding that it is pretty standard procedure when trouble might be afoot to say, “Hey, we’re not sure what’s up, but it’s possible someone dangerous is in the neighborhood, so until we know who they are, we’re locking down the school.” What’s the big deal?

And I love how you seem to know exactly how many administrators, admin staff, maintenance workers are on duty at every school and that they will be sufficient to set up a security perimeter on every campus (and that all those individuals have radios at each and every school).

What a joke your plan would be at my high school with its 5 administrators for 10 buildings that cover 2 city blocks! I’m pretty sure they would want teachers on alert taking care to notice if anyone suspicious walks past their classroom window.

But of course, you know what proper procedure would have been for the Walton schools and any other school system. After all, you were there, right? You knew the details of the report at the time it happened, right? You know the layouts of their schools and neighborhoods? And of course, you know their teachers and students are prone to panic if asked to stay in their classrooms for a little while.

By Lia

December 13, 2007 9:25 PM | Link to this

I am a teacher in one of the Walton County Schools that went under lock-down. Even though we don’t have actual locks on the classroom doors, LOL, we did the “lockdown” as instructed and there was very little panic. It would be nice to have actual locking doors just in case there ever is an actual gunman! I guess we can only hope there never is.

By Tony

December 14, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

Jeff, what happens at the end of the school day when all the students are dismissed? Don’t they all go to the parking lot? Doesn’t that create a crowd of people? Isn’t the confusion of dismissal a prime opportunity to exact revenge? A gun in a car on a school campus poses a real danger and there is no argument that can excuse the possession of a gun by a student whether it is in the car by accident, on purpose, or other circumstances.

By Jeff

December 14, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

Tony:

So implement the military base-style entrance gates that I recommended earlier.

Guns are going to get on campus REGARDLESS. I’m simply trying to a) do something about the mass hysteria that ALWAYS erupts when it is RARELY warranted and b) trying to prevent some kid from getting permanently punished for a brain fart.

Nothing anyone else has recommended does anything to address these two concerns.

By Joy in Teaching

December 14, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff…

What’s with the “mass hysteria” that you keep bringing up? We who live and teach in Walton County didn’t see any of that the other day, but apparently you did from your comfy computer chair.

Jeez, dude. Get a grip. Maybe take a walk and observe how the real world and not “Jeff World” works. You might actually notice a difference.

By Jeff

December 14, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

Joy:

The fact that it even made the news tells me SOMONE was panicked.

The fact that FIVE SCHOOLS were shut down tells me SOMEONE panicked.

Need I go on???

By Jeff

December 14, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

Joy:

Furthermore, the ‘witness’ saw these kids in a NEIGHBORHOOD!!!!

Even when taking into account that they were supposedly ‘crossing Highway 11’ at the time, there are TWO schools in that area. NOT FIVE. The closest schools outside that immediate area are at LEAST 2 miles away, according to both Google maps (one of which was provided by the school system on their website) and my own Google Earth research.

Add to that, it was a GRANDMOTHER who has stated that she was ‘concerned for her grandchild’ who phoned in the 911 call.

Typical elderly hyper-worrywort over reaction. In fact, in the 11-alive article, this overly reactionary grandmother blatantly states “I really didn’t know what in the world these children were doing with this gun.”

In closing, let me say this: No one EVER do ANYTHING suspicious - including driving your car, as she may think it was stolen - around Lillie McNight of Monroe, GA. She’ll have every cop in the County looking for you.

Shame on you Lillie McNight! SHAME!!!

By Joy in Teaching

December 14, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

Jeff….

I give up. You should be crowned king of the world as you apparently know everything there is worth knowing. Oh wait…apparently you define “mass hysteria” as one lady making a 911 call and with both law enforcement and school officials making the proper response with what information they had at the time. And you really do understand people—both adults and students very well. Oh wait…you’ve been spouting off that people are more dangerous behind the wheel of a car rather than with a loaded gun near a school. And you really do know everything there is to know about education as you managed to teach for several months before being fired.

Time to up the meds, Jeff.

By tony

December 15, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

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