Get Schooled

By catlady

December 7, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

Since I support the strengthening of requirements, I am not unhappy or surprised about the lower numbers eligible. However, even with this change, grade inflation is rampant at the high school level. There are still many, many kids winning this “scholarship” who have not done scholar-level work. I’d like to see it continue to be refined so that eventually so many do not lose the award after their first year. On this blog there have been many good suggestions on how to achieve this—see jim d (previous) and others. Mandating that all HOPE scholars take similar courses (for example, all must take and do well in math at least through trig) would be a big help. Requiring students to prove themselves, and then getting HOPE retroactively, is another idea, although it could have serious reprecussions in terms of access and equity for lower and lower middle income students.

As I have pointed out previously, each of the prepared AND unprepared HOPE “scholars” that go to state colleges costs the taxpayers because of the taxpayer subsidy of student tuition. Weeding out students of frivilous intentions or unprepared to do college level work would increase the academic levels of the colleges in general.

Since we have such an abundance of money (enough to give outrageous bonuses to officers in the lottery), I would like to see the HOPE targeted to graduate students showing great promise. Of course that is a pipe dream. Targeting undergrads gets their parents’ vote. Targeting grad students gets only the grad students’ vote. Or perhaps, increase the book allowance to something nearer reality. I am not sure that HOPE still really means Outstanding, and I believe we are still giving false hope to students who are used to getting A’s and B’s for just showing up, or for “working hard”, which is not the same as achieving.

By catlady

December 7, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

And, Bridgett, I am not sure the title is correct. The students did not “lose” HOPE; they never got it.

By Tony

December 7, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Just a few weeks ago, this blog discussed the percentage of lottery funding going towards the educational purposes. In that article, politicians were bemoaning the “crisis” in HOPE funds. There is no crisis in HOPE scholarship funding.

With that said, the HOPE scholarship should have more factors than GPA to determine a student’s eligibility. SAT results, levels of courses taken and other stringent factors could be used. For instance, students who take higher level AP and IB classes could receive bonus credit. Currently, a student could make straight “A”s and take the lowest possible level of courses and earn the HOPE scholarship. Students who earn really high SAT or ACT scores should be eligible regardless of their GPA.

Finally, the original purposes of lottery funds have been abandoned. Technology was one of the three main emphases in the original plan. There have been no lottery funds used to update technology in recent years.

By Tony

December 7, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

and one other thing - 16,480 students did not lose HOPE. They did not have it to start with.

By mathmom

December 7, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

I think HOPE should be retroactive for the first year. So you have to pay the first year and HOPE will reimburse you (if you can’t afford it there should be a loan program available at very low interest). If you maintain your grades at college after 1 year then it starts paying in advance. We need to use HOPE dollars for kids who are serious about college.

By Bridget Gutierrez

December 7, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Folks, the headline was a play on words. As in, they lost hope for a scholarship. Lose HOPE. Get it?

As I clearly explained in the blog: “That’s 16,480 students who might have qualified under the old rules that didn’t this year.”

By Bob

December 7, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

I have no problem with stricter requirements for The Hope Scholarship.

There does need to be a way to make sure that individuals in schools who aren’t as good as others have a chance at HOPE but are not guaranteed the free ride if they can’t cut it.

And, yes, the scholarship should have more funds for books, especially in subject such as Micro-Biology where more books are needed.

By mikeholl12

December 7, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

to the person who commented, “Students who earn really high SAT or ACT scores should be eligible regardless of their GPA”, when does being smart and lazy get you anywhere in life.

By cara

December 7, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

MathMom,

I think that is a great idea. My daughter has a learning disability and works very hard for B’s and C’s. She takes AP classes that really are difficult for her but she tries nonetheless. Unfortunately, she won’t qualify because of the new rules. It won’t stop her at all but I think that many kids who are very serious about school miss out on scholarships all of the time.

By Tony

December 7, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

Sorry Bridgett, I have a tendency to take things literally.

By Tony

December 7, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

mikeholl12 - It is quite possible to earn a very high SAT score, a GPA that is slightly below 3.0 and not be lazy. Some kids choose to take harder classes where they run the risk of earning a C rather than take the easy A classes.

By lizzie

December 7, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

The stricter guidelines sound great for HOPE recepients. I still can’t get over the bonus amounts paid to the GA lottery employees, are they the same people changing the guidelines, do they have any say in that, as it seems to me the stricter the guidelines the more money left for their bonus? I’d like to work there.

By Lisa B.

December 7, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

I wonder how many students who went to college on HOPE, then flunked out, ended up going back later. I can think of some examples of kids from rural Georgia, who had never been anywhere in their lives until they attended college because of HOPE. Without HOPE, there is no way they would have ever attended the first college class, but because of HOPE, they moved to places like Athens or Atlanta. Though they flunked out, their perspectives were forever altered. They went back to college on their own, some locally, and finished. I don’t think they would have done that if they’d never has the taste of college obtained through HOPE.

I don’t believe HOPE money is wasted when students flunk out. Certainly, society would benefit more if all HOPE students completed college, but I still think there is value in exposing people to a world past that of their neighborhoods. Perhaps that one sememster of college helps some future parents see some value in education. Maybe we’ll see some of that reflected in their children. We’re trying to change a culture. That’s the bigger picture. If a student flunks out and loses his or her HOPE, and least we tried.

I am obviously having one of my more optimistic days. It is Friday, after all :-)

By erica

December 7, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

Cara, I feel for your daughter and I’m sure she tries hard. However, the scholarship is for kids who show academic promise… not for kids who try hard. If your kid has a disability, there is a ton of money available to her to help her through college. There are hundreds if not thousands of scholarships for college bound kids with disabilities.

Money shouldn’t be spent on kids who can’t make the grade no matter what the reason. It sounds harsh, but if we start paying for any kid who “tries,” it will be nothing but a welfare program rather than a program designed to keep the best and brightest in Georgia where they can benefit the state.

I’m sure your daughter is a great kid and that you love her dearly, but that doesn’t mean that the state should pick up her tab.

It’s a scholarship, not a pat on the back - they give enough of those in public school as it is.

By PTCMomma

December 7, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

I think have both a gpa and an ACT/SAT minimum score requirement would be helpful in making sure the scholarship goes to those who are likely to succeed. The Hope was never meant to be for every high school graduate. It is meant to be for those who have the ability to FINISH college.

By Ed

December 7, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

Maybe this will lower the percentage of students who lose their HOPE scolarship within the first year of college because they were not prepared in the first place. I unerstand the failure rate is 50 percent. Somebody correct me on that if necessary but this is telling students and parents that they need to adjust their prioirities and focus on their future.

By HS Teacher Too

December 7, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

I’ll step out on a limb here speak for Catlady and myself (can’t speak for Tony, b/c I am not sure if he is a teacher; and I hope you don’t mind, Catlady!) when I say that we are hyper-sensitive to hearing “lose the HOPE.” Even though you meant it as a play on words, we hear it misused so often that we cringe. And what’s worse is that 99.9% of the time (your case being the 0.1% not included), people truly believe that they/their child has lost the HOPE. Some of those misguided folks then go gunning for someone to blame, to boot. So we high school teachers are definitely sensitive sobs about “losing” the HOPE.

I once had a parent call me — at home!! — the summer after her son graduated to let me know that I “lost” her son the HOPE. Mind you, I had him when he was a junior…

As to the topic at hand — HOORAY!!! Doesn’t anyone think the system isn’t working when more than half our students qualify for a scholarship? I don’t think it needs to be so elite as to be single digits qualifying; but I am very pleased to hear that there are fewer students earning what is purported to be a merit scholarship. Let’s keep that in mind: it’s supposed to be a scholarship, not an entitlement.

That being said, I do think we ought to make some accomodations for students who take higher-level classes, which is something I have said on this blog many times. The system as it is currently rewards students for taking the easy way out. (We can see that some of the consequences of that phenomenon are the number of students who DO lose the HOPE once they get to college; and the number of students who, although they earn the HOPE, end up in remedial classes in college. Some scholarship!)

Since the state pays for all students to take the PSAT in 9th or 10th grade, I would support tying the HOPE at least in part to those PSAT scores. (That will ensure that those students who can’t afford to take the SAT aren’t excluded, which I think would be a concern otherwise.) What’s more, it will encourage students to take this whole “college thing” seriously a little sooner than 11th grade!

My two cents.

p.s. to Tony: I agree! I was one of those students whose GPA was a perfect 4.0 until I took AP Calculus BC. (Even my other AP classes were all A’s, and yes, the grades were substantiated by 5’s on the exams.) But I hit calculus, and I got my first-ever C, first quarter of senior year. Not only do I agree that it is possible to not have all A’s and not be lazy, I’d go a step further and say that it really should be COMMON if our students were taking classes appropriate to their abilities. As for falling below the 3.0, though? That would mean an awful lot of C’s (or B-’s) and maybe that would be indicative of being in classes a step HIGHER than the student ought to be? I’m not sure how I feel about that — I haven’t thought it entirely through — but I’m not sure it’s altogether bad. But that’s another day’s topic …

By catlady

December 7, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

*I don’t believe HOPE money is wasted when students flunk out. *

I agree, Lisa. Not HOPe money—that is lottery money and I don’t have to play the lottery. What I am concerned about is TAXPAYER money wasted when students flunk out. Each student, worthy or not, who goes to public college in Georgia has their tuition subsidized by the taxpayers. Students only pay a small portion of what it costs to deliver the classes. ANY student flunking out wastes our money. HOPE is culpable when it encourages students who do not have college skills to go to college and waste our tax money. (Here is how you get a bit of a handle on how much we subsidize each student each year: look at the amount out of state students pay for tuition at Georgia public colleges. Subtract how much the in-state tuition is. You will be surprised at how large the difference is.)

There is data available on return rates for HOPE dropouts. It does not seem to be widely published, however. Wonder why? I know there are lots of Aunty Em stories about students who went to college, flunked out, got their priorities straight, came back to college, and did well. The question is, how often does that happen? 5% of the time? 10%? Are you content with paying (subsidizing) $12.000 (my guess) per year per student, only to have them not prepared and drop out? Is it worth $12,000 per year to expand students’ horizons and get them out of their small town (or ghetto)? Multiply that by all the students who flunk out. Is it worth it? Perhaps joining the armed forces would be more cost-effective. Unfortunately, lots of the information that SHOULD be out there is not. Seems to be closely guarded. About all we get for “evaluation” are the numbers of students awarded, amounts awarded, and the like—no real, well-done, EVALUATION of the program.

Sorry, Bridgett, I think it would have been a better play on words not to have capitalized the word ‘hope”. JMO, however.

By Ken Roberts

December 7, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

I am very happy about this standard finally being adjusted. It is ridiculous some of the “weighting” standards that go on in High Schools. At my graduation ceremony, people were confused because students were graduating with 6.0’s!

I agree that we should raise the standards on kids to obtain the HOPE scholarship. This is valuable money that can otherwise be used elsewhere.

By Ken Roberts

December 7, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

Tying it to the PSAT? No way. The kids take that test at took young of an age. I remember I rushed through the sections so that I could take naps during the test! Later, I score a 1420 on the real SAT.

By Ken Roberts

December 7, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

Tying it to the PSAT? No way. The kids take that test at too young of an age. I remember I rushed through the sections so that I could take naps during the test! Later, I score a 1420 on the real SAT.

By catlady

December 7, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this

Until there is a standard, perhaps by course levels tied to SAT or some other score less open to manipulation at the state/local level, we will continue to have students rewarded for mediocre work.

Of course, you and I know that the kids who take the “lump-lump” level courses to fatten their HOPE GPA are really shooting themselves in the foot for the future (when they cannot do college level work because they are unprepared), still there is that heady year before they lose HOPE when there are significant costs to taxpayers, those pesky student loans (if necessary), and lost opportunity costs as students who would be better served with other plans waste time “broadening their horizons” on a college campus.

Lisa, I am not really quibbling with you about the importance of HOPE as a vehicle for getting kids out of their comfort zone. I live and teach in a very rural area myself. It would be better, however, if we targeted it more in a realistic way. Kids who ” aren’t cutting it” because they are overplaced, at any age level, turn to more destructive pursuits.

And about the lottery: it is a blatant conflict of interest, IMHO, for lottery officials to use lottery money that is supposed to go to scholarships, prek, etc., to sweeten the pot so more people will play, which enhances their take in bonuses!! They are using student money to make money to get bigger bonuses, and that should be stopped. The 35% should be enforced (legislators, where are you?) and the money should be recouped from the lottery officials who have profited by this deception, all the way back to the past officials who were in charge when this theft began. Has anyone heard any of our legislators speak out about this?

By HS Teacher Too

December 7, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

Ken,

Good point, and I am sure there are many students with similar attitudes toward the PSAT. Thinking out loud: I wonder if letting kids know that the PSAT mattered for the HOPE would dissuade that type of behavior — which might, in turn, serve two purposes.

Just a thought. I know that wasn’t the point of what you said, but it made me think a little about that aspect.

By PJ

December 7, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

Let the Georgia colleges and universities come up with a Hope scholarship test. They write it (according to the knowledge and skills they want incoming freshmen to have), they administer it, they score it. Inflated grades from high school won’t mean diddley.

By Tony

December 7, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this

PJ - but the colleges have a vested interest in receiving the HOPE scholarship money. That would create a huge conflict of interest.

By Lee

December 7, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this

I’ve said it before and I’ll just have to keep saying it….

Make HOPE a reimbursment program where the student pays his tuition up front, takes the class, and then gets reimbursed by HOPE upon successful completion of the class.

That’s the way that many corporate educational reimbursement programs work - including the one that I went to college on…

By Hope Graduate

December 7, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this

I went to college on the HOPE scholarship and graduated with HOPE. 50% of my classmates who also went to college with HOPE didn’t have HOPE after the first year and only a fraction of those actually graduated with HOPE 4 years later.

I do think that stricter standards are important but when I look at the percentage of students who qualified in the county I live in now (Henry) as compared to the percentage of students in Clayton County, it’s obvious to me that there are grade inflations going on; How in the world can Henry graduate a higher percentage of students than Clayton but have a lower percentage who earned HOPE? Because some school districts hand out higher grades. There is no standard on how grades are earned so it doesn’t matter how much you raise the standards if some schools are going to hand out grades. The state already spends tons on the HS exit exams so why not put them to more use and create a standard using them (versus just a pass/fail or creating ANOTHER test) and use them in conjunction with GPAs?

I actually do think reimbursement is not a bad idea… I think it should be based on a 0% interest loan for the school year; if you earn your 3.0 GPA, HOPE pays off your loan for the current year and extends another for teh next year. If you don’t qualify, it’s a loan you must pay back. If you aren’t willing to put your money on the line for your education, you’re usually lacking in motivation to get good enough grades to earn the 3.0. If you are motivated and still lose HOPE, chances are you’re willing to take on the loans to finish school anyway.

By AverageJoe

December 7, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

If you think that SAT scores and GPA’s determine how successful one will be in college, you need to actually go out and meet people. I graduated from high school with a 2.5 GPA. My SAT score 20 years ago was a 860. I went on to finish college, although it took 5 years. I received my master’s 6 years later. I own my own business and consider myself pretty successful.

This is lottery money, not tax dollars. A “C” student has a right to HOPE because they probably won’t get a scholarship any other way. Also, just because you make c’s doesn’t mean that you’re not a hard worker or that you won’t succeed in college. Gimme a break!

By jim d

December 7, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this

this may be another slant on it.

“Gotta pay for those bonuses somehow!”

By Cactus

December 8, 2007 1:38 AM | Link to this

Average Joe: consider yourself an exception, as I consider myself. I did not graduate from college but was able to operate my own company making more than my college educated friends. My children were always saying how well I did without a degree, I keep telling them I was lucky. I spent long hours working, many away from my family. Nothing can take the place of a degree. Not many people will be able to suceed with out a degree. So you young people need to excell in math, sciences, english, and a second language. Oh and high tech.

By Cactus

December 8, 2007 1:46 AM | Link to this

I have known five kids who took advantage of “Hope”, only one finished her 4 year degree. Thats not a very good average. Being a model student in high school does not mean you will excell in college. You are no longer being coddled, you have to work for your degree.

By gosouthgohard

December 8, 2007 2:02 AM | Link to this

I think that one of the most unfortunate aspects of the HOPE scholarship is the name, and the connotations of “losing HOPE” in particular. To lose hope (no capital letters) is a deeply sad thing, one of the saddest things, and should not be associated with making a 2.97 in college.

By Ken Roberts

December 8, 2007 2:05 AM | Link to this

People keep saying this is not tax money, but it is. It is just a very indirect and well targeted method of taxation. We need to treat this money with just as much scrutiny as we do other funds, otherwise we risk wasting it.

Another poster was correct in saying that the true cost of a college education in Georgia is on the magnitude of $15,000 per year. If a student does not qualify for HOPE, they still get the vast majority of their education subsidized. They can take out a few loans and reapply for HOPE after a year, if they are determined. If they are not determined… well, then we should not pay for them.

Grade inflation is also a major problem in schools around the state. We need to take this issue very seriously, as do most colleges and universities. At Georgia Tech, professors are closely scrutinized to make sure they do not give away too many A’s and B’s. A professor under certain circumstances can get fired for having too high of an average GPA. Such a system should be implemented statewide, in my opinion. It forces students to compete against each other, which is often the way in which we learn the most.

We could give schools a certain amount of flexibility on this, but the overall goal is important and should be considered. A school can graduate 100% of its students and have 100% HOPE, but still have taught their kids absolutely nothing.

By Ken Roberts

December 8, 2007 2:08 AM | Link to this

To add to my previous post, I think class ranking and standardized test scores would be an excellent way to remove some of the ambiguity of GPA’s.

By Michele

December 8, 2007 7:45 AM | Link to this

The HOPE scholarship is a joke. The money that is made from the lottery is atronomical compared to what is used for the HOPE. From first hand experience of my straight A student daughter winning the HOPE and my personal dealings with not only the Board Of Regents and politicians after she graduated was enough to say no one should ever count on the HOPE unless, you are un-wed and pregnant,a single parent on welfare or in the military (which by the way will pay for your college)and you depend on your money to help you pay for your bills. My daughter graduated and was awarded the HOPE, she decided to move to Florida and start a new life, she went to college (paid for by her) lived on her own, paid her own bills never dependent on her family money. She decided to move back and contacted the Board of Regents about using her HOPE Scholarship they advised her yes she could she would just have to wait for residency to “kick in”. She enrolled in college again paid for by her and waited the year for residency to kick in and went to use the HOPE only to be told she did not qualify. My question was and has always been how in hell can you not qualify for something you have worked for, earned and were awarded? The HOPE is for life - well it is if you are an unwed pregnant or raising a child on or off welfare as a single parent or if you are in the military. If you are no longer dependent (because you are an adult) on your parents to support you and you choose to no longer live with them and are a responsible adult who is not with child , living on their own with out the aid of welfare and have choosen not to go into the military then ole well you loose. I fought with the Board , the governors office,Senators, Congress to be told the same thing. So I say this to you Georgia yes maybe raising the grade average is a good idea, however you need to look at what you are promoting when it comes to the other rules. Because my daughter CHOSE to be a responsible adult you penalized her, however that did not stop her from continuing her education, Making the National Dean’s List and pursuing her dreams. I wonder though if Georgia is loosing money on the HOPE what happen to the 4 years of college funds that you awarded my daughter that you would not let her use - was it used to line someones pockets or better yet pay for a pregnant unwed on welfare irresponsible person.

By WFC

December 8, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

The HOPE scholarship is a great idea and God bless Zell Miller for pushing it back in the day. Some problems have creppt into the system, though.

• Grade inflation. There is tremendous pressure on teachers to give “HOPE eligible” grades even if they are undeserved. Younger teachers are most susceptible to this.

• Average students want to avoid demanding as opposed to easy teachers. I was demanding and pushed into retirement from Northview High school by politically well connected parents.

• The “reembursement” idea is worth exploring.

• Not everyone is cut out for the academic life even if smart and hard working. Push tech school for these worthy students.

• The courses a student takes in high school should be more of a factor in awarding the HOPE. My son, currently a junior t Northview, is easily HOPE eligible so this isn’t an issue for us. His current schedule of classes will prepare him well for higher education: calculus, AP organic chemistry, latin, honors physics, AP American history, AP literature. Strength of schedule should really be considered. It’s truly an indicator of how well a student is likely to do in college.

• The HOPE is designed to help less wealthy children have the chance to ACHIEVE in college. It IS NOT intended to provide children to go party for a year and flunk out. We had lots of those at Northview when I taught there.

By gamtwoman

December 8, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

My daughter majored in PE and chorus in high school. She never took any high level math, science, or foreign language classes. Her SAT scores were pitiful. Not ready to join the work force, she enrolled in a community college. Apparently, then the light went on! She completed her first year of college work with a 3.8 GPA. After many remedial courses in math, my daughter will be graduating from UGA in March, with a 3.6 GPA. She has already applied to graduate school. Who has paid for all this? After her first year, HOPE has funded her entire education. Her parents, retired and living on Social Security, could never have afforded this. HOPE has made our dream come true. Our daughter will not face a future asking “Do you want fries with that?” Let’s remember, when students go off to college, they are mere babies. Let’s give them a break. My child had hidden talents that even her parents didn’t see. There are lots of other late bloomers out there! And HOPE is often their only hope!

By red

December 8, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

I just found out this week that my honor student does not qualify for HOPE under the new rules. We always believed that a B avg. is all he would need, and he has that. After 22 honors courses in high school, gifted program since 2nd grade, 20 college credits, and president of his high school student council, with an 85 avg, this honor student is denied hope. Not to mention, why didnt someone along the way tell us the rules had changed? I met with the principal and counselor this week, who basically just said, you should have tried harder, not gotten so many low grades, etc.

It is almost as though he is being penalized for taking the harder courses. Had he dropped out of honors, and taken the regular courses, then his grades certainly would have been higher, but he was strongly encouraged to take the harder honors classes, so it would look good on his transcript. Also, this year, his senior year, he was forced out of the gifted program, because he is taking joint enrollment classes with the local college, instead of AP classes. So, sorry, you are no longer a gifted student. Then what the hell was the purpose of all those honors classes?? We are not sure what we will do at this point. We are a low/med income military family, with not alot of resources.

By mom3boys

December 8, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

Someone mentioned they’d like to see HOPE approach reality on books…I did not see it pay even for a notebook last semester. In fact, when checking my son’s account at UGA the other day, I saw because he’s taking so many lab courses next semester, he owed money above HOPE. I love HOPE; no complaints about a system that automatically pays the school for my son. It would be nice if they wanted to kick in a little for the $600-800 for books, but considering all I’ve paid for a year at the flagship state school is around $6K, I don’t really feel I have room to gripe.

I hate when I hear talk of lowering the bar of expectations. We do that in the school I teach at and I hate it!Raise the standards, let the kids work hard, and reward the ones who do. That is what the program is designed to do. I know many kids go off and lose HOPE due to excessive partying or whatnot. These kids will learn a lesson at the school of hard knocks—another great school, IMHO.

By Allen

December 8, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

To the guy that argues

“to the person who commented, “Students who earn really high SAT or ACT scores should be eligible regardless of their GPA”, when does being smart and lazy get you anywhere in life.”

Without being a smart-a* - It got me a paid for 2 million dollar house in buckhead and a seven figure annual tax bill.

By tmjm3714

December 8, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Red, if you son has a true B average, that would put him at the 3.0 needed to qualify for HOPE, you might want to check into that. Even if he still doesn’t qualify for HOPE, with his credentials he should have no problem finding other scholorships. You might have to actually, you know, look for them instead of having them handed to you, but they do exist. In fact, as a military family you might have access to military funds to send him to college.

My point is that too many families have become too dependant on the idea that HOPE will be there for their kids. HOPE is not the only schlorship or avenue of paying for college guys. If you’re not motivated to seek them out, well then may be the whole “college thing” isn’t for you.

By PJ

December 8, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

Tony: The colleges are going to lose the money anyway when the “overinflated” kids flunk out.

By Andrew

December 8, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

For all the old people complaining that kids are being handed money, college costs A LOT more now than it used to.

The NEED to cut out all of the kids who se parents make enough money to pay for them to go to college. I though the whole thing was to help middle to lower income families pay for their children to go get an education (which would benefit everyone).

I guess a few more kids have to be cut out so they can have those salary bonuses.

By not quite

December 8, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

Atlanta will just dumb down the grading so that the kids will meet the new “tougher” requirements.

By Tony

December 8, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

PJ - A large freshman class enrollment is a boon for universities. The students are herded into large venues for the courses and taught by graduate assistants. I don’t think it is a loss for universities to have freshman flunkouts. The large influxes of cash support the upperclassmen through their programs of study.

By Sam I Am

December 8, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

62% means BELOW average students are getting government scholarships.

The other problem is that a lot of HOPE money goes to wealthy families who could have paid for college. One CBS Sports writer observed about UGA female students, that HOPE Scholarship money has allowed college savings to be diverted to cosmetic surgery in the pectoral area. Are there families in Georgia so wealthy that thy don’t apply for HOPE? Maybe but I don’t know any.

By Bob

December 8, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Florida’s scholarship program is grade and SAT based. It’s also a two tiered program. In order to receive the higher tier (100 percent of tuition and fees + 225 dollars per year) a student must score 1270 or higher on the traditional portion of the SAT, have a 3.5 GPA in certain subjects, and they must complete at least 75 hours of community service.

By geez

December 8, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

“Folks, the headline was a play on words. As in, they lost hope for a scholarship. Lose HOPE. Get it?” Gosh, she’s rude. Be nice, please~!

By catlady

December 8, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

Andrew—there will never be an income cutoff on HOPE again. That is how they co-opted all the staunch S. Baptists, Methodists, etc. to vote in favor of it. It would be political suicide, as would any efforts to do more than marginal tinkering with it.

Did you know that originally, for several years, there was a NEGATIVE income cap? If you made BELOW $x, you could not get HOPE because you were presumably eligible for Pell. So Suzie, with straight A’s and a family income of $90,000 DID get HOPe but Jamie, with the same, or higher grades and a family income of $28,000 did NOT get HOPE. Took several years to fix that one. (Lower income folks don’t vote or show up at meetings like upper and middle class folks do). In fact, as I recall, the upper limits that were in place originally came off before the lower limits! Surprised?

Any award based on “scholarship” should demand true scholarship, complete with certain course demands, GPA, and SAT/ACT (an independent indicator divorced from the self-serving grade inflation). Now, an earlier poster listed courses his high schooler is taking, which is terrific. However, at many high schools 3-4 APs are all that are offered, so course selection should be pretty narrowly tailored. School systems would thus be “encouraged” to offer these courses so that their students COULD be considered for HOPE.

HS2, thanks for trying to explain to Bridgett about the “Losing HOPE” thing back earlier in the blog.

By jim d

December 9, 2007 5:38 AM | Link to this

HOPE?

Not anymore. It is simply another Government entitlement to keep the commoners in their place.

HOPE was in fact meant to do exactly that. Keep kids in state that might otherwise escape to a school in another state and not return. Which is what the smart kids are doing anyway. You might be amazed at the number of ways to recieve a college education out of state without spending a fortune.

By ageofpaper

December 9, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

No one said life was fair, that being said, the kids from wealthy families can afford tutors and have a stronger tax base which means better schools, teachers etc. The Hope was not supposed to be for rich kids, who have little need of money for school, but alas the rich kids are taking over the programs funds. If a kid is in a poor area with terrible surroundings he may not be able to reach his potential, but as the other blogger stated bloom when he is given new surroundings. I noticed that all the teachers with kids thing the rules should be more stringent, gee what a surprise that is. Every kid with a ‘c’ average should be given chance for the first year, if they fail then so be it. Don’t worry if you middle class or poor kid does make it through college, the rich have arranged to use credit now to keep the kids from good jobs. Rich kids run up a credit card and mom and dad pay it off, and tell Buffy don’t do it again. Imagine a world where only the wealthy keep power, oh crap we have that now.

By Evelyn

December 9, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Instead of putting so much energy into figuring out how to make less students eligible for financial assistance, Georgia needs to work on how to keep more kids in high school, and promoting the importance of education, including college education for as many as possible.

The drop out trends, and this latest news of inelibility for HOPE is greatly disturbing. Hard times usually bring high crime rates, when the general public is largely uneducated. We all have a stake in making sure as many kids get as educated as possible.

By Northview Teacher

December 9, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

WCF is exactly right about Northview. The AJC should take a look at some of their practices, which would make for some eye-opening reporting.

Any AP teacher at Northview who tries to teach a true college course with college-level expectations, demands, and requirements does not last long. The parents here, with their Republican political connections, move against teachers frequently. They will get what they want, any way they can—and our Admin is spineless, always ready to accede to any unreasonable parent demand. There’s a “joke” among the teachers at Northiview that we should simply send out a form to the parents at the start of the year asking what grade they would accept.

Parental interference extends even into the football program. Look at what happened to Coach Savage this year.

Northview students get AP classes, which are not really college classes. since no one qualified actually teaches AP for long here, and, as WCF points out, many of the students graduate woefully unprepared for the rigors and demands of college (even on the level of, say, UGA). I’ve heard that many end up coming home to sleep on Mama’s couch for a few more years.

The irony is that those who most easily could pay for their children’s college educations demand a free ride—and Fulton County Schools bends over backwards to comply. Woe to the teacher who has any belief in doing what’s right in the classroom. It’s all about placating parents.

Socialism for the wealthy! Capitalism for the poor! What else could we expect from Ashley Widener and company?

By HS Teacher Too

December 9, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Northview Teacher and WCF, same thing happens in Gwinnett.

I have actually seen students earn A’s and B’s in their AP classes only to get 1’s and 2’s on the AP Exams. Anyone think anything is wrong with that? Nope — the parents want the A’s and B’s because THAT’s what goes on the GPA. (And these kids aren’t applying to “real” collges — yes, I’ll say it — who would look at the discrepancy with disdain.) So, try to do your job and make a “c” in the class comparable with a 2 or 3 on the exam, and you’re pushed out faster than you can say “AP!”

I’m on your side. The anti-rigor phenomenon is rampant, and not just at your school (and not just in AP classes, either).

By HS Teacher Too

December 9, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

HAH! An unfortunate typo: I just re-read my earlier post and saw “So we high school teachers are definitely sensitive sobs about “losing” the HOPE.”

err … should have said “sensitive to sobs about “losing” the HOPE.”

Makes a difference in what the sentence really means. What a flub!

By tTinaTeach

December 9, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Using SAY/ACT scores might not work so well. My own SAY scores were low (1050 old SAT). My GPA in high school was 3.78 taking ACP or AP classes. My math skills have never been good (this is why I teach a foreign language). Anyway using SAT/ACT scores could seriously put smart kids at risk who simply don’t do well on standardized tests.

By Lee

December 9, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

A few observations:

• There is a lot of “wealth envy” going on in this blog. Maybe if the tax burden wasn’t hovering around 80%, we middle class and above parents wouldn’t need HOPE to send our kids to college.

• Schools all bemoan the lack of parental involvement. When we do get involved, they call it parental interference. Make up your damn minds.

• Make HOPE a reimbursement program and the pressure for high schools to inflate grades is significantly decreased.

• My oldest had straight A’s for twelve years, took every Honors and A/P class available to her (never scored high enough to get credit though…), and graduated fourth in her class. Went off to college and started making B’s and C’s. Mr. Reality is one tough hombre…

• Trying to get the high school drop out rate to 0% is counterproductive to good schools. Let’s face it, schools would be better off if you could run a few of the troublemakers off.

• According to Vollmer’s statistics, schools in the 1950’s had dropout rates around 50%. When was the golden era in public education? Oh yeah, in the 1950’s. Coincidence???

By ageofpaper

December 9, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Tax burden of 80%? OK except you forgot the write off for your house, your summer home, the office in your house, your husbands and your cars being part of the practice which is also a write off, and oh yea the boat. Class envy, you bet, you are the same person crying about the cost of malpractice insurance while on vacation in Greece. Save it for the country club. The vast majority of the wealth goes up and up to the fewer and fewer, even the President says that the gap between rich and everyone else is becoming a problem. Run off the trouble makers? That’s great idea as long as you don’t have to walk to your car alone. Heck all we need are more gated communities. Give Hope to everyone for at least a year whether in trade school or higher education. Less bonus money for the fat few and more to the kids. If they don’t make it the first year then out.

By ageofpaper

December 9, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

The easy way to fix this would be to make the military service mandatory for everyone for two years out of high school. If you drop out you get to go on your 18th birthday. It would insure that all the kids are equal no matter the family’s money, and the powers that be would be less inclined to go to war. Kids that are good students would be able to get government money for college or trade school, and the ones that are trouble makers would get some discipline and self esteem and perhaps better themselves. The rich mans war and the poor mans fight. School should not be for the well to do only, and if you live in a poor area with cruddy schools you will be at a disadvantage to get the Hope money.

By catlady

December 9, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

HS2: Actually “sob” is one of the nicer things we are called…I really thought that was what you meant (but were speaking more plainly than we are usually allowed to) : P

By catlady

December 9, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

Lee—have to disagree with you about the “wealth envy” part. I think what you hear are (mostly) teachers bemoaning the watered down nature of what we are allowed to teach, and what a disservice it is to students and parents to allow them to think they are getting something good when they are not. Not to mention a waste of money.

I personally have no problem with the fact that lower income folks are the ones who largely supply the money for the middle and upper class students to go on HOPE. Playing the lottery is a luxury I cannot afford (my pay on the teacher scale is at the bottom right hand corner: max degree and max experience, I own my house and car free and clear, and have no credit cards so have relatively few bills), and I always feel surprised that others with much lower incomes than I have feel that they can afford it. But they make the choice, and they live with the results. Others may disagree.

*Schools all bemoan the lack of parental involvement. When we do get involved, they call it parental interference. *

I think it is that we have different definitions of “parent involvement”. Truly. At my school, many of the involved parents manifest their involvement by doing their child’s homework and coming in to clean out their child’s desk periodically.

Good for your daughter. Sounds like she is a woman of grit, unafraid to go after the tough stuff. Mr. Reality is a rough, demanding taskmaster. Sounds like she is getting ready for the Real World, and will come out miles ahead.

ageofpaper: On the HOPE for everyone idea: some merit. That way, we don’t continue to PRETEND it is a scholarship. Either it should be a scholarship with scholarly expectations, or it should be called something else. Right now from where I sit there is too much “reward” for mediocre work in undemanding classes, and too many reasons for the schools to continue to water it down.

On dropouts and chronic misbehavants: they should be put directly into boot camp, so they can develop some real skills and discipline, and not be preying on the rest of us. Dropping out due to pregnancy: similar thing, plus mandatory birth control until earning, child raising, and life skills are demonstrated. A couple of years ought to do it (to convince students to stay in school and out of trouble).

By Thank You Zell Miller

December 9, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

All I know is that I flunked out of college the first time ‘round in my early 20s. I was laid off a couple of years ago and as part of my severance package my old company paid for my first year back at school (had to get in 30 credit hours before I could receive HOPE, being a nontraditional student.) After that, I went on HOPE and have been on it ever since. I’ve worked long and hard for my grades and my GPA shows it. I am going for my Masters when I finish up with my B.S.

I am of the same mind as Ageofpaper, give the average kids a chance the first year and if they don’t make it, then there’s nothing like a couple of years at McDonald’s to straighten them out. There are many, many scholarships out there for high performing kids to go after and very little for the C+ \ B- student (besides those awful student loans.)

While perusing the employment ads I’ve seen some companies requiring their admins to have a college education before hiring them; everyone needs a shot at higher education in this day and age in the U.S.

Finally, thank you to Zell Miller for pushing the HOPE program. You’ve certainly made college more accessible to me and mine. It’s not easy coming up with the funds for college these days and HOPE has made that a lot easier for us.

By skc

December 9, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

Kids lose the hope but the lottery officials get hundrends of thousands in bonus money. Yes thats our government in action. I will not buy another lottery ticket. Its meant for our children but once again, government is involved so its not run properly. The lottery is a bust. I wish I had never voted for it now.

By catlady

December 9, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Well, 35% is meant for the students. According to that AJC story, it is at 26% and dropping. Why aren’t heads rolling?? Where are you, legislators and those charged with overseeing this??? When will they and you be accountable?? And when do we quit rewarding lottery administrators for higher sales when they are using the money that is supposed to go into HOPE/Prek to inflate the bottom line (by “keeping the interest up”), and thus their bonuses? When do we recoup the money taken from the fund? Thinking people want to know!

It is kind of like giving big bonuses to principals and teachers whose schools/classes do so much better on the CRCT, only to find out the lower-performing children are being shot behind the school. (horrible analogy, but similar).

By Barb

December 9, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

Michele

I hear a lot of rage due to your daughter not getting a hope scholarship she earned when she graduated with the required GPA at that time. I’ll let my ignorance show here I was not aware that we subsidized hope scholarship recipients. I was under the impression that lottery player footed the bill. The tax money that you pay goes to support all schools kindergarten thru college. The government is not going to let you keep the money. So Instead complaining about young women who had sex and end up with an unplanned pregnancy and chose to keep the child instead of taking an innocent life. You should be glad your daughter did not end up in that situation. That is unless you’re saying she is a virgin! There is a thin line that separates those who get caught and those who do not. I would say these young women are living up to their responsibility and going to school to better their life and the life of their child. Rather than having someone dependent on welfare we have a future tax payer. Why not complain about corporate welfare? I’m sure all the tax breaks our government gave Exxon and the other big oil companies could have supported a lot of students. What about that war were fighting to “free the Iraqi people” or is it “the war on terror” I forget the amount of billions were into now that certainly could have improved our whole school system K thru 12th. Then we would have students who could truly compete on a level playing field. Rural, inter-city and suburban schools would all be well funded. A system with the ability to provide a quality education to those wishing to get one. I urge everyone to hold their legislators accountable for passing bills that pay to attract quality teachers. Fund the education system and remove problem children who disrupt and are dangerous in the school environment. Spend less time arguing over issues that do not affect the life of the average Georgian.

By JustMe

December 9, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this

IMHO, HOPE isn’t a right, it is a gift. It is a gift that is earned by showing that the student is capable of success. This means that the student must have done well in high school.

If the ‘average’ kid wants a HOPE scholarship, they simply must work hard in high school to show that they are academically worthy. It really is that simple.

As a high school teacher, I regularly see kids that think that HOPE will be there for them no matter what - that it is an entitlement. Some really do not understand that it is tied to their grades - their academic success.

If an ‘average’ kid, or any kid for that matter, wants the HOPE scholarship, they should work their tail off in high school and in college.

By comp133xi7y

December 9, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this

So…let me get this straight.

Most HOPE money comes from lower-income folks. It’s low-income people who play the lottery the most, after al.

Lower income children are less likely to succeed in high school than middle-class and upper-class kids.

Upper-class kids don’t need HOPE. Their parents can pay for school - no problem.

Middle-class kids generally need a combination of HOPE and other subsidies to go to school.

Lower-class kids are less likely to do well than their middle-class and upper-class peers.

So…we should penalize the children of the very people who are pouring the most money into HOPE becuase we continue to cling to arrogant and contemptuous ideas about who can and can’t succeed in school?

Seems to me that the kids who are getting cut out of HOPE are the kids that need it the most.

If we want to compete in a global economy, we need to make it possible for as many people to succeed in higher education as possible. But hey - if you would rather attack kids who come from low income homes and condemn them for being stupid, more power to you.

Jesus loves you, right-wing trash. Really.

By yesiamworried

December 9, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/09Rparenting.html?_r=1&ref=education&oref=slogin

By Zoe

December 9, 2007 9:32 PM | Link to this

Red- Your child was not forced out of the gifted program- If your child is gifted and is taking joint enrollment classes, the school is actually claiming gifted FTE monies for him. Joint Enrollment/ACCEL is considered one of the ways to serve gifted children. In fact, our county is pushing it because AP classes actually costs the county more than sending them to the local college.

I also have bad news for you, if he is enrolled in a state or public university- he is currently using HOPE hours. Students are limited on the number of credits they can take using Hope and even if he isn’t qualifying now, if he ever qualifies later, the classes he is taking now count towards the hours HOPE pays for.

(this was on the Ga Perimeter Website but it applies to all public colleges/universities and their Joint Enrollment Program) HOPE funds the ACCEL Program and pays for tuition and some mandatory fees and also provides a book allowance of $150.00 per semester for students registered for six or more credit hours or $75.00 for students registered for less than six hours. All credit hours for which students receive payment under this program will be included in the maximum total number of credit hours of payment they can receive from the Hope Scholarship Program after they graduate from high school.

The HOPE rules changing were in the paper a few years ago. I know I started telling the class of ‘07 when they were freshman how the rules were changing and that they needed As and Bs, not just an 80 average to skate by.

People complaining about the drop in the number of students receiving the scholarship don’t seem to realize that this is basically making the kids who would have lost HOPE after the first year, find other ways to go to school. Also, it is not like HOPE is gone, they just have to put in effort, earn at least a 3.0 GPA and then they will qualify. Also, the Technical schools don’t have the same qualifications for HOPE, kids that want to be something that doesn’t require a BS or BA, can use that route. This includes auto technicians, HVAC training, plumbing and other trades that earn way more an hour than I do as a teacher.

By Carolyna

December 9, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this

You know, the average kid who studies hard and actually cares about school should have no problem achieving a 3.0 GPA. Why should anything below that be considered eligible for a SCHOLARSHIP? I went to college on Hope for my first 2 years before transferring to a northern school. Everyone up in PA was shocked that I got a free ride my first 2 years and said they’d do anything for a program like Hope. Kids in Georgia need to realize how lucky they are to have such an opportunity and if they really do care about their futures, they need to learn to work for them.

By Katie

December 10, 2007 5:37 AM | Link to this

Going to college/university is like getting a drivers license—it’s a privledge not a right. Not everyone can or should go to college—it’s the American way. Some aren’t smart enough, some can’t afford it. It’s a fact.

By ageofpaper

December 10, 2007 7:24 AM | Link to this

“Going to college/university is like getting a drivers license—it’s a privilege not a right. Not everyone can or should go to college—it’s the American way. Some aren’t smart enough, some can’t afford it. It’s a fact.” Hey snob how much money do you thing the government gives to the colleges in this country, even though these schools have billions in reserves. They get grants for research for every stupid pet trick the administrators can come up with and that’s fine but with the free money should be some help for those that are not affluent. The schools and corporations are now run by those that dodged the draft with college deferments during Vietnam (Vice President) and see the great shape our country is in with their brilliant leadership. If only the rich go to college things will get worse not better as there will be no balance or input from those on the other side of the fence. The country will be run by Buffy and Biff with Uncle Dick and Cousin Paris. Expand Hope so more can get in.

By jim d

December 10, 2007 7:33 AM | Link to this

Absolutely Katie,

And for those that are up to the challenge scolarships abound.

My kid (a senior in HS) has applied at 5 different schools and has recieved preliminary acceptance already to his 2nd,4th and 5th choices. Only his 5th choice being in state. Yet he is finding ways to pay for his education through grants and scholarships that will make it affordable or at least allow him to do his undergraduate studies leaving him with a minimal debt upon graduation.

The fact that so many students are dependent upon HOPE for their college education is really a shame. It limits their options and shows little self initative. I’m not too sure I’d be interested in hiring anyone that limits themselves in this fashion.

By red

December 10, 2007 7:34 AM | Link to this

Zoe

please tell me what you meant that my son is “not forced out of the gifted program”? That is what the school told me. Called me up and said if your child does not take any AP classes, then you are out of the gifted program. I argued that he is a joint-enrolled student for the 2nd year now, but she said it didnt matter. They dont count the joint enrollment as gifted. So, you me how am I supposed to remedy that? BTW, What is FTE monies? THe GFTC (I think) told me that my county is only 1 of a few counties that forces students to commit to a full year of an AP class, even you are are flunking and want to withdraw, you are committed to 1 full year, or they can give you an F and you can drop. That is what they advised my son to. He wanted out the first week of class when he realized that he was not prepared for AP chem, but they said you have to flunk out, here let me give you an F and you are out. NO DISCUSSION WITH THE PARENTS, NO MEETING WITH GUIDANCE COUNSELOR, NO NOTHING.

yes I know the Accel/joint enrollment is counting towards his HOPE hours, but so is the college credits he has earned. So the 20 hours he has now, will be transferred to any college he ends up at, as he took the core classess that will transfer.

By red

December 10, 2007 7:42 AM | Link to this

I agree, Hope should not be our only way to fund college, but when you were counting on it,and then denied, it hurts. yes, somehow, I will find a way for my son to go to college. Most of the scholarships I have looked at require a 3.0, so I am not sure if his 85 avg is a real 3.0. (I am not a college graduate myself) My son is a first generation high school graduate and first generation college student, so I am trying to figure it all out as I dont know much about the grading system. We are waiting on the SAT scores now, and hope they will improve his chances of other scholarships. I welcome any suggestions or advice and can be emailed at wrhsdmns at hotmail.com

By jim d

December 10, 2007 8:06 AM | Link to this

Red,

Don’t know what to tell you other than I did tell mine that if he was interested in an out of state school that he’d have to find a way to help pick up the tab. I really can’t afford the 50 grand a year out of state tuition for the colleges of his choice. He has gone on line and found the scholarships available at each school and done all the paperwork, he’s also applied and interviewed for an ROTC scholarship, as he intends to do military service upon graduation. (The military offers a pretty sweet deal if one has this type of ambition)

By Katie

December 10, 2007 8:12 AM | Link to this

I didn’t say anything about the rich. Some rich kids are stupid and shouldn’t be in college/university just because their parents have money. My reasoning is this:

If everyone in the US had a college education who would take the jobs that the illegals currently work. In order to weed out the illegals we have to replace them with hard working Americans. So, it’s beneficial to this country to have Americans who aren’t as well educated as the doctors, lawyers, bankers or other college educated positions. There’s nothing wrong with good hard honest work, such as farming or other laborous jobs. You seem to think that college educated people are ‘better’ than un-college educated and that is not true. Education doesn’t make anyone better than anyone.

By zoe

December 10, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Red- here is the Georgia Gifted Manual, see page 8

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/documents/curriculum/instruction/giftedregulations.pdf

FTE monies are the Full Time Enrollment monies the state provides the schools. Gifted and SpEd kids bring in extra monies to offset the smaller class sizes.

By zoe

December 10, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Red- I just read why they didn’t want your son to drop AP and take ACCEL- the school lost his FTE monies. They are probably trying to keep all the gifted kids at school to pull in more money. I can tell you can you can lodge a formal complaint with the State DOE- Linda Andrews is in charge of gifted education.

By red

December 10, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

Zoe, I spoke with the dir of gifted in my county this morning, and she told me that accel/joint enrollment is not counted as gifted, so yes he is out of the gifted program as of his senior year(this year) What I shame! And no, the school is not able to collect the fte monies, that is why they want them to stay in AP. My main issue with her, is what must a student committ to a yr long class, not knowing if he is capable of not? They would not let him out of the year commitment, so he took an F to flunk out, without involving me or the counselor. That is not right. You are able to withdraw from any other classes with no penalties, excpet the AP classes(money!. That F hurt him tremendosly. She seemed like she would make an effort to address some of the issues for future students. My other son will be entering high school this coming year, and I believe I wont let him stay in the gifted program, as it also could hurt his grades. Plus, what is the point if they kick him out as soon as he begins joint enrollment anyway?

By zoe

December 10, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Is there a written board policy that dropping an AP class means an automatic F? If he isn’t enrolled in the class, how can they put it on his transcript? I would say you need to work your way up the ladder on this one.

By red

December 10, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

no written policy that says dropping an AP class means an F. The policy is backward, in that the only way to drop is to take an F, otherwise you are committed to the class for the entire year. He was actually passing the class, but didnt feel he could continue for both semesters, so he and the teacher agreed to an F so he could get out of it.

By jim d

December 10, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Red,

In response to your question re: AP classes.

Unless I’m mistaken this is a DOE policy that is enforced evenly statewide. I would suggest you go to the DOE site and send them your questions. They are pretty good at getting back to people that ask questions regarding policy.

Best of luck!

I’d be interested in the response.

By jim d

December 10, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Oh and Red,

Once gifted always gifted. He will be encouraged to take some honors, gifted and IB as well as AP classes in high school. This in no way means he must take them. Only that he may. I suggest you talk to your child, encouage him to challenge himself but not to overload himself with classes that he may really struggle with. Mine was mature enough to make some wise choices, He took a couple of honors classes—a couple of gifted and 1-AP class but had a pretty full load of electives (no sluff classes)and the rest were all CP. In May he will get his diploma (College-Preparatory Seal with Distinction) And like I said earlier he has already recieved prelimary acceptance at 3 colleges.

By zoe

December 11, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Red- did you sign paperwork withdrawing your son from the gifted program? If not, the school may be claiming FTE funds for the AP class he supposedly “dropped.” Gifted kids have to take at least one Honors/Gifted/AP or IB class a year to qualify for services. If a student doesn’t take it, the school system is out of compliance with the student’s gifted IEP. This whole situation sounds very strange and I still think if you push it, you can get this class taken off his transcript, especially since he has been attending college and not been on the school campus. I don’t think the school can legally count him as enrolled on campus if he is not.

By red

December 13, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

zoe, I spoke with the gifted dir for county. The college courses off campus do not count towards the gifted program, so since he “failed” out of the AP class, he is no longer in gifted. He is on high school campus part of the day, and college campus the rest of the day. I cant get it off his transcript, because that might start a precedence. Besides, he has enough C’s that the failing grade wont matter much. As I told him many times to drop the honors/gifted classes and he could make A’s, but he chose the harder ciriculum and it didnt pay off. His grades suffered, and it keeps him from HOPE and from the better colleges that he would like to attend. As I told the gifted dir, my middle schooler will probably drop the gifted program when he enters high school next year.