Get Schooled

By Jeff

December 4, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Well, today’s kids could learn a thing or two from the Apostle Paul.

When dealing with the ‘saggy pants’ issue of his day - eating meat sacrificed to idols - he argued for individual liberty, but concluded ‘if my eating meat causes a weaker brother to sin, I’ll eat no more meat’.

IOW, do what is best for the common good and put your own ‘style’ on the backburner.

School is telling you that you can’t wear such and such while on their property or at their events. It is the schools prerogative to do so. Same thing as when your employer states that you can’t wear such and such while at work.

As with the employer, once a student leaves campus and is off school property - including the buses, as they are owned by the school system - they are free to do as they wish within the laws of their community.

By WTF?

December 4, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

I wish someone could abolish the desire to wear this mess from their minds altogether!!!!

After all, don’t teachers and parents still teach kids it’s not appearance that matters WTF??? Are you serious? Of course appearance matters (not WHAT you’re wearing so much, but HOW you’re wearing it!), much more for some than others!!!

By Erin

December 4, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

One word for you: UNIFORMS.

In the state and town I live in, school uniforms are very common and work very well in keeping the school atmosphere as it should be.

By Teacher, Too

December 4, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Is wearing baggy pants the only way to show individuality? If this is true, then we have rather limited students.

However, before we start on the students, we need to get our teachers dressing professionally and setting the standard. I see teachers wearing clothing that students are not allowed to wear- see-through blouses, spaghetti-straps, off-the-shoulder blouses- sometimes I think the teachers are dressing to go clubbing rather than to teach.

Once we get the teachers dressing professionally, then we can get the students’ dress code enforced.

Finally, there are many ways to express individuality other than by whether your pants sag and bag. Plus, it’s rather gross to see boys grabbing their crotch all the time because their pants are falling down!

By SET

December 4, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Appearance does matter and the schools should be teaching that. Children do not need to be “expressing themselves” any way and anytime they want - schools should be teaching that also. Actions have consequences, sometimes the consequences are not obvious - Schools can teach that one also.

The prole children would be a lot better off and safer if we had them in uniforms. There will be lots of time for individualism later after they are trained to make it in this brave new world we have created for them - where they can become a casualty any day because of their “individuality” and choice of appearance.

Uniform appearance is especially valuable if you want the prole children to pass into higher society, as is ability to speak standard English.

There is nothing so sad as seeing an 18 year old corn-rowed, baggy pantsed, black boy in Jack In The Box dropping off a job application with the Hispanic/Philipino “manager”, watching him leave and the application get tossed. What’s wrong with this picture? No one in that workforce looks like him anymore. I saw this 2 weeks ago while stopping before work.

Reminding people of the past again, I remember when the public schools issued work permits and actually helped place students into their first jobs. The counselors knew who needed one and knew the likely employers. And they made sure the kids (if the parents didn’t tell them) knew to show up looking like those already working there. Like the school nurses, the counselors have been cut way back.

The kids are so drunk with their individuality that they can’t get started in life. I blame the public schools and their rotten value system which teached the kids they are the center of the universe.

The corn rows identify with prison class, drug using, promiscuous culture - at least around here. They are as helpful in job interviews as a gang tattoo another expression of “individuality” we see in prole children).

By SET

December 4, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Big time typo above - “teached” was supposed to be “teaches”! Sorry..

By JustMe

December 4, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Give me a break! Teenagers today have many more avenues to express their ‘individuality’ than at any other time in the history of the US.

Baggy and oversized clothing in schools should NOT be allowed. Why? Well, try to forget that it is an eyesore (who wants to see someone’s underwear?), but you still have to deal with the fact that oversized clothing allows for places to hide drugs, weapons, and so on. A student could walk down the hall right past a security guard with a gun hidden and the guard won’t have a clue.

I am personally all for going to a school uniform. That would eliminate so many distracting things from our schools….. no peer pressure to wear the most expensive pair of shoes….. no embarrasment of not having good clothes….. no decision on what to wear that day….. and many other things.

By Jesse's Girl

December 4, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Don’t teach kids that appearances do not matter!!! Talk about setting them up for failure in the real world! In a perfect world…no, appearances would not come into play. However….I’m sure you’ve all noticed….a perfect world it ain’t. The image one projects matters a great deal. Right or wrong, if you look like a thug or trash….you will be treated as such by certain people. And all too often, those “people” are the ones that can give you a hand up or a slap down.

By V for Vendetta

December 4, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Here’s the bottom line:

School’s prepare students for the real world, or at least, they should be preparing students for the real world. By allowing students to act and dress like thugs, punks, hooligans, criminals, and outright morons, the schools are ultimately doing the kids a disservice.

I agree whole-heartedly with Erin: uniforms should be put into place at schools where the dress code needs enforcing. It’s a simple matter, really. You really can’t go wrong with tan slacks and a golf shirt; it is pretty much impossible to wear them incorrectly. If a student were to wear them incorrectly, he or she would be relatively easy to pick out from the crowd. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that it’s not the dress code that’s the problem … .

The enforcement of the dress code at my school is pathetic and ultimately unclear to both students and teachers. I’ve had multiple students that were clearly dressed inappropriately (based on our school’s dress code) get sent back to me with a note from an administrator saying “it’s not that bad.” One admin had the nerve to say on her note “I’m really too busy to deal with this right now.” Until the counties, schools, admins, and other teachers grow something even remotely resembling a spine, we can never hope to solve these types of problems.

Nothing will ever be accomplished as long as we are bound by a system that fears parents. Back in my day, it was the students who feared the parents, not the schools. Remember what that was like?

By amanda

December 4, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

I agree that schools have the right to make and enforce dress codes. In addition to the 3Rs, schools are preparing children of whatever age for the real world when they get out. Individualism can be expressed other places and times. BUT, I also think it is the parents responsibility to say “that is not appropriate dress for the occasion” and not allow it.

By Tony

December 4, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

As I read the remarks today, one question comes to mind. If all the kids are “sagging” then where’s the individuallity. A few years ago there was a clever lukovich-styled cartoon that demonstrated the point.

Appearances matter. They are a reflection of the person’s standards for life. Laziness and sloppiness are not traits I want in the workforce I am responsible for hiring.

The other point that caused deep thought for me is this. If how these kids are dressing is a reflection of their culture, why is it that schools get singled out and blamed for the kids failures? It is because there are too many people who want something for nothing. Schools alone can not fix this problem. Parents, communities, schools, churches, politicians and business leaders must work together to generate better attitudes from our kids who are growing up in these conditions.

By Lisa B.

December 4, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Way to go Atlanta BOE! Even when they style is banned, some kids will persist in wearing baggy pants long after they should have gone out of style, just to make a statement.

By mayretter local

December 4, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

big time typo indeed: prole chilluns? huh?

just messing with you SET, it was too easy after you corrected the “teached /teaches” thing…

those baggy pants sure do make it tempting to ask for some bootay, since that’s where it originated, right? prison men draggin their drawers to signal they needed some lovin. if they got a dose of what they’re asking for, maybe them drawers would fit better the next day. punk’d again due to uneducation.

and by the way, if some elementary or middle school kid is wearing it, the style is already passe’. be alone in crowd and THINK for one’s self.

Eat a Peach for Peace!!

By Lisa B.

December 4, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t understand why schools these days fear the parents. Who cares if Mommy and Daddy pull the trouble-maker out of public school? I don’t want these people around anyway, if they think rules don’t apply to them.

I love the idea of uniforms. I wish my son’s school had them.

By Just Looking

December 4, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Teacher Too, Where do you see teachers dressed for clubbing? I want to move there.

By GW

December 4, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Where I teach butte crack has been pretty much replaced by cleavage but still too much of both to have school.

By Teacher, Too

December 4, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t want to reveal myself (no pun indtended), some days I am just embarrassed to see what my colleagues are wearing. Not that I’m a prude- sexy dress is fabulous in the proper time/place— but certainly not around middle school students who, at best, have hormones flying out of control!

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

December 4, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

You know what? It’s parents who need to enforce and take responsibility for their children…and the school does as well. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and don’t let it just go because it’s easier. Thank GOD my kids wear uniforms……. it’s more economical and they aren’t worried about what the other kids are wearing and they can concentrate on school and what really matters.

The issue here really….is PARENTS having pride in their family and actually worrying about what their kids are wearing and doing.

By Erin

December 4, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Uniforms, uniforms, uniforms.

As much as I would have hated it at the time I was in the DeKalb County School System, I must say now I’d welcome them …

But V is also absolutely right … enforcement just isn’t happening as it should.

I live in New Mexico and I remember one small-town school board meeting I attended where there was a HUGE long debate among the members regarding what constitutes “baggy,” when it comes to pants and how “short” should be defined in terms of skirts.

It IS complicated, unless you have uniforms. Then the only thing is, making sure you have the right colors of polo tops and deciding whether to go with khaki, navy or black pants or all three!

In the town I currently live in, the uniform thing works quite well, as I said before. It’s all a matter of each school picking its colors.

The only thing is, the schools go with uniforms only through middle school. I’ve been hearing about some of the dress code issues they have in the high schools here and I’m really wondering when the school board will, if ever, change the policy to include the high schools, when having THE “it” brand or jeans or shoes, or having the “right” or “cool” logos or styles is considered the biggest deal among kids.

By Teacher, Too

December 4, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Oops- I mispelled “intended”. I do know how to spell!

By E.J.C.

December 4, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

I AM HAPPY THIS HAS CAUGHT SOMEONES EYES TO HAVE RESPECT FOR WEARING YOUR CLOTHES I LIKE THIS ONE (SMILE)

By V for Vendetta

December 4, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

GW:

The uniforms would fix ALL of the problems. It would contain the saggy pants, girls’ cleavage/exposed thongs, and inappropriate shirts worn by all students. Why this hasn’t yet been enforced is simple — the schools are scared. They’re scared of the backlash from parents complaining about their kids’ precious “rights.” Newsflash to parents: your kids “rights” are limited within the confines of the school building, they must abide by the rules set forth for them, just as any employee must abide by his companies policies and rules.

Bridget - this same lack of backbone is the reason schools can not confiscate students’ electronic devices. We have been specifically told at my school that we are to turn in the device (cell phone, ipod, PSP, handheld) to the administration. What do they admins do? THEY GIVE THEM BACK TO THE STUDENTS. Their reasoning is simple. They claim that it is a legal thing, and the parents could hold the school responsible for the cost of the device. I say that if the rule clearly states that all electronic devices will be PERMANENTLY confiscated, what legal grounds do the parents have to stand on? Put it in the handbook at the beginning of the year and have the parents sign it. You’d see iPods and game systems disappear QUICKLY.

Then again, that would require some balls — big brass ones, in fact. You won’t find many of those around any of the school systems in metro Atlanta. Oh, sorry Tony. Was that too offensive? :-)

By Erin

December 4, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

One last comment and I swear I’ll shush …

I agree with Atlanta Pearl Girl about parental responsibility, but kids are sneaky and WILL find ways around parents, including wearing a parent-OKed outfit out the door and changing later at a friend’s house or in the school restroom?

Which is why schools really NEED to enforce the policy … it’s just too bad they either can’t or won’t for whatever reason …

LOL … just reading through this here and gee, aren’t I opinionated today?! Hehehe

Erin

By hotlanta

December 4, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Jessee Girl-excuse me in the real world you need to come to my office and she how some of these folks dress. One person had on a velvet jogging suit with flowered flip flops last Friday. In the summertime you will come to my office and probably think you were at Piedmont Park. These folks are not of the baggy pants generation. What is their excuse and excuse me this is the real world.

By HS Teacher Too

December 4, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

To answer your question, schools take away an area — not one of the few, I would argue — where kids can express themselves because kids are not doing so appropriately. By appropriately, I don’t mean that we ought to censor and define what is appropriate TO express; but rather HOW to express it. For example, we don’t say that people can’t feel dislike for each other, but we do limit how they can express that — we don’t let them fight or swear, etc.

That being said, appearances DO matter. When parents and teachers say appearances don’t matter I think we are trying to teach children to look beyond appearances to the person. But at the same time, children also need to learn and understand that first impressions are almost impossible to overcome. So we need to teach students on the one hand to not “judge a book by its cover,” but on the other hand to present anappealing cover, so to speak. It’s an interesting tension between the two, certainly, but not an impossible one.

Personally, I don’t know that I would rule out “baggy” clothing in general, but I would certainly stand by the ban on the baggy pants with a rule that said more clearly, undergarments are not to be visible. I once taught at a school where the dress code required all shirts — yes, even sweatshirts and sweaters — to be tucked in, and all pants with belt loops needed to be worn with a belt. That combined with a rule that says no pyjamas, and no sweatpants, and I think the too-vague “baggy clothes” issue goes away — and no one would dare argue that showing your underwear is in any way appropriate!

By Hick from the Sticks

December 4, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Strangely enough, I just had a discussion with my class on this topic yesterday.

Their point was the same as your question: the expression of the “individual”.

If physical appearence expresses who we are as a society, we have truly hit rock bottom.

Furthermore, how is the sagging of one’s pants individuality when such a massive horde of teenagers engage in it? Does that not make them a collective group?

Or, should I say, a uniform group?

Thoreau would be proud.

Different clothing promotes different social cliques. Nothing more, nothing less. It is the individual that wears said clothes. A child will still be the proverbial turd (err…shining, delicate lamb) no matter what clothes he/she is in.

School is (or should be) a microcosm of society. My dear mother used to remind me constantly that “you can’t polish a turd”.

When the kid gets out in to the “real world”, then feel free to sag your pants five feet below the street’s surface, if that truly dictates who you are as a person.

Don’t become irate and bent out shape, however, if someone targets you for something you are not.

By everyone's gotta learn to follow rules

December 4, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

In this world we follow rules if we wish to succeed. Whether we agree with them or not is immaterial. End of conversation.

By Dee

December 4, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

I agree with several of you in that your comments are right on: of course, APPEARANCE definitely MATTERS but the young folks today do not seem to understand that at all. When one observes a young person sleezing around in clothing that’s 8 sizes too large, to me, it sends the message ” I don’t care and you cannot make me care”… it sends many negative messages and very bad first impressions, such as laziness, non-caring, and definitely not too concerned with attention to details…..And, the same goes for the young women — seems like the young ladies and teenage girls insist on showing WAY too much cleavage and tend to wear their jeans too tight - very unsightly, especially when the attire is designed for “perfect figures” and their bodies are imperfect… I hate to see a young girl with cleavage bursting out all over the place, AND rolls of unsightly belly fat hanging over the low rise jeans waistband.

** Hey, I’ve even had this conversation with my own adult daughter! Knowing her “outlook on self expression and individuality” I’ve had to remind her to be sure to dress appropriately for certain job interviews - but, instead of following my sage advice, she actually got angry at me…!!! I’m afraid she’s another one who insists upon being allowed to show her individuality even to her own detriment through her manner of dress. On more than one occasion, she simply “cut off her nose to spite her face”… she may have “proved her point” - that she will dress anyway she feels like it, BUT she also did NOT get what she went top the interview for in the first place - an employment offer! This defiant expression of “individuality” through her manner of dress has cost her several good employment opportunities, I am convinced; those potential employers had been very interested in her credentials until they meet her and see her “unspoken attitude” picked up from her manner of dress… and then they decided that she would not be a “good fit” after all. !!! Sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes. My daughter is extremely intelligent, has a college degree from the UGA, but also has a huge problem with immature thinking that causes her to refuse to “go along with the program, just even long enough to get her foot in the door on a job”… and, in doing so, continues to undermine her success. Unfortunately she will continue to get “passed over” until such time her outlook and thinking matures AND her manner of dress becomes more in tune with and appropriate for the occasion at hand. And, for the record, my daughter was taught the importance of dressing appropriately, professionally, and that one must at least try to “look the part” just get a foot in the door, combined with good employment references, education, experience and other credentials.

By Nicole

December 4, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

I think that there are a number of different takes on this issue. The first issue is that as parents why are we allowing our children to own clothing that sags and shows their underwear. The second issue is that like someone earlier in the conversation said I think the school system setting standards is great. When the children get out in the real world and into the workforce they will be told what they can and can not wear and they will have to adapt to those business mandates if they want continued employment as such I think it is totally acceptable for the school to do so as well.

By LydiasDad

December 4, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Now, THERE’s a contradiction: “My daughter is extremely intelligent, has a college degree from the UGA”.

Couldn’t resist.

By Dee

December 4, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

LydiasDad — you must be a GA TECH fan - that’s cool —-

By shirleypenn

December 4, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

well AJC I will try again to make a comment. For some unknown reason you did not “approve” of my comment concerning illegals. In all these comments, I was surprised to find most people do realize the “Sloppiness and dirty looks” are not proper in out society. I am so glad people are bonding together and hope the schools, and school board will not be afraid to have the “instinal fortitude” to comply with what is really appropriate for this cruel world we live in, where God has been left out……

By mel

December 4, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

I wish every school would make students wear uniforms. No fights, no stealing of stuff, no gan colors, no saggy pants, me not being put into a position to look away just so that I don’t stare at your pants and your showing undewear.

Appearance does matter. Let’s say these kids get out of school, graduated by some miracle. An then, lo and behold, another miracle, they get a job interview. Just how will they be taken seriously in the working world if they try to be individuals? Wearing innapropriate clothing, like that its not likely to get them anywhere. If I were the boss, I would give one warning only. The next time I would fire anyone that obviously does not respect my position and authority enogh to do as he or she is ordered.

By NParry

December 4, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

UNIFORMS are the way to go. School boards are simply spineless and afraid of some “freedom” toting and ignorant parents.

By Vee

December 4, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

I heard this profound statement from a certain metro-Atlanta superintendent: The kids are not getting dressed at school. Quite frankly, he was paraphrasing the whole, “Charity begins at home” saying. Not only are parents allowing their “babies” to leave their houses wearing the too big pants, they’re buying that crap, too. The even sadder part is that some of the parents are wearing the too big pants and other attire that makes them look like they just got off from work at a local strip club.

There was a time when the only embarrassment was when your mother showed up in a bathrobe and pink hair curlers to pick you up from a party or skating rink. (Yes, I’m a 70’s baby.) Haha! In today’s time, I’m afraid, some of the parents have lost their sense of decorum and couth.

At my school, the saggy-pants dilemma is solved by requiring the “offenders” to wear rope to keep the pants up or putting hard plastic ties through pants loops. Yes, it does work and is legal. I can’t remember the last time I’ve had to tell any student to pull up his pants since this solution was implemented.

By Jay

December 4, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

“I don’t understand why schools these days fear the parents. Who cares if Mommy and Daddy pull the trouble-maker out of public school?”

Since they’re public schools, students can claim their civil rights were violated and sue. That’s the source of the fear.

By catlady

December 4, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

My children can express their individuality by deciding what to eat for breakfast, or which subject to do homework in first. Enough said. Appropriate decisions. I used to include “what to wear” on the list but stopped when parents began to completely lose judgement in what they allow their children to buy for school. And, teachers, have you ever noticed that the students with the worst behavior are the ones whose parents say it is their child’s “right” to wear green hair or tshirts with bad language? Cause/effect, anyone?

By FCM

December 4, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

UNIFORMS……public schools or private….everybody gets a school uniform.

By The Essence of Taste and Sophistication

December 4, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Absolutely amazing …

Johnny can’t read or write, and yet the author of this blog is worried about him being able to express his “individuality”.

Oh, well, at least Johnny will be “an original” as he stands in the unemployment line.

On second thought, maybe he won’t.

By Jesse's Girl

December 4, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Hotlanta…..bad taste can infect anyone. There is a difference in being a tacky dresser and dressing like you don’t have the sense the good Lord gave you.

By michele

December 4, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Baggy pants should be banned because I don’t want to see your underwear & I can’t be alone in that.

Now turn the question around & ask if girls can’t wear clothes that show their bra why should boys get away with showing their underwear.

By James

December 4, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

In Douglas County, there is a strict dress code that is enforced daily.

School is not the place to express your individual creativity through dress. Show it through your school work.

Clothes should not be a distraction in the class room. Since not all people can apply reasonable judgment to what is or isn’t acceptable or offensive - policies are in place to keep student dress out of the big picture of education. It is designed to be fair, keep students safe and ensure a productive learning environment - because they are there to learn!

My daughter wears a uniform. Sure at first there was a little grumbling, but she now likes the ease of getting dressed in the morning, and since everyone dresses similarly - there isn’t a division between the haves & the have nots. The uniform has successfully allowed the focus to be on education - not socializing - at school.

They do have and can earn dress down passes - which allows opportunity for personal expression on occasion.

By Tony

December 4, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

V-The offensiveness comes when we degrade our discussions into the terms from the gutter. We don’t have to let our interactions sink to that level. These expressions are nothing but emotional statements and contribute nothing to the arguments being presented. Metaphors such as “backbone” are quite sufficient.

Your remarks today are certainly backed up with reason. Parents (with the backing of court orders) have in some cases eroded the authority of teachers and principals when enforcing discipline codes. The comparison you used today with electronic devices is disturbing to me. The point that bothers me is that teachers are told to enforce a standard then the administration turns right around with double-talk and undermines the authority of the teacher. The other point that disturbs me is that electronic devices are the wave of the future and we as educators should be tapping the resource rather than listing the tools as contraband.

By Sld

December 4, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

So tell me: If you want a teenager to learn and grow and become more mature, why take away one of the few areas where they can express their individuality? After all, don’t teachers and parents still teach kids it’s not appearance that matters, but rather the character within?

Appearance does matter. And children have too many oportunities to express their individuality. In fact, they express themselves so much that we can’t even control the little monsters anymore. My fourth graders like to wear their pants in that style too. I put zip ties on them and tell them that when they see me walking around with my panties showing then it will be okay for their underwear to show. They think the idea of seeing my underwear is repulsive and I find seeing theirs repulsive especially when I see the same ones day after day. Gross! Instead of being so gung-ho on individuality why don’t we teach respect? We are destroying our nation with catering to everyone’s feelings. Just think, those are the people who will one day lead our nation and make decisons for us! I’m more than a little concerned about that.

By HS Teacher Too

December 4, 2007 6:47 PM | Link to this

Tony,

Ah, but there’s the rub — these “tools of the future” are often at a level of technology with which many teachers are not familiar. (And with no harm; a 50-year old teacher may truly not need, or want, an iPod!) However the technology that is contained in some devices allows for disruption and cheating if not monitored. So we have students potentially using devices to bypass the teacher and the teacher is unable to prevent it because he/she is unaware of either the fact that it is happening, or of a method to prevent it.

Now, that said, do I think there is a place for technology? Absolutely. But we must be careful to use it wisely — and I believe that it is policing the potential negative aspects that schools try to do when they make blanket policies that disallow the technology at all. I also — and perhaps this is short-sighted — can’t see a valid reason for needing to text message during class, or a valid way to incorporate text messaging into a meaningful class activity (in more than an occasional sense).

One thing that students often asked me was why they were not allowed to wear headphones and listen to their iPods, cd players, etc.. The students’ logic was that they were quietly listening to their own music (or at least, usually — but surely teachers could request that they turn the volume down, if not), and they were working quietly. The best answer I was ever able to get from the administration was two-fold: one, they can’t monitor what students are listening to, which creates a potential liability if parents were to come back and say, “you let my kid listen to x,y,z with x,y,z profanity,” (etc.) Two, if students have on their headphones they may not be able to hear instructions in an emergency — or even potentially to realize that there was an emergency.

I’m not sure I agree 100% with either of those rationales, but in this day of litigiousness, I can understand )if not agree with) schools’ efforts to err on the side of protecting themselves.

By angie

December 4, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

“Essence”, that’s hilarious! I couldn’t agree more!

By ironmaiden

December 4, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

OMG! Since the late 1980s, the “students’rights” movement has been in control of the baggy pants issue. I feel some hope that a consensus could be emerging that will put the screws on offensive school attire. And what could be more offensive than UNDERWEAR?? Certainly not t-shirts with the Confederate flag or Malcolm X. You mean high school is actually not supposed to be a teen “day club”, as opposed to a “night club”? The argument is, “They’re just my gym shorts”, usually layer upon layer. I don’t care about seeing anything below the level of the jeans, thank you! And plueeze tuck those bosoms under something before they freeze and fall off.

By Music Prodigy

December 4, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

In my school, many students wear the baggy pants that show something we do not care to see. To me, that shows a sense of disrespect and an attitude that says they don't care. Dress codes can be a huge help. Some kids may take it to the farthest advantage and wear the tightest clothes that show everything or the really loose clothes as in this case. In the hallways, I see kids all of the time having good taste in style and also bad cases. I don't think we should have to wear uniforms because our style is a part of us, students. We want a part of us to show who we are. Character stands through your outside actions. Clothing is one way of showing your character. No, I do not agree with the baggy pants or the tight clothes, but we shouldn't have to have no voice of opinion in the clothing we wear. My thoughts say that children need to do learn how to dress appropiately. If we have to get a little stricter, than that is fine. Even then, I still think we should have our own opinion. School is suppose to be a learning environment and not a hang out place. Sometimes, I look down the hallway and I see children chatting away to their friends. Not only that, but then they are late for class. Because the point of waking up in the morning on the weekdays is to go to school, I think kids need to be more serious about it. At times, children take education for grant it. Most of the kids in Africa and the Middle East don't even have a notebook and a pen, and we are always begging for more items and never doing our work. Children need to take school more seriously. Clothing can sometimes be a problem and I understand that. Many children want to wear whatever and violate the dress code. Those children should get punished, but not the entire county. As long as children dress the right way, I don't see how the dress code is a problem. I like wearing my type of clothing, Christian t-shirts and clothing from my selected stores. Many students probably feel the way that I do. All of the students have their own way to dress. When it becomes a problem, then we should do something. The baggy pants hanging to the knees needs to stop, though. Nobody wants to see all of the extra skin. Some of the clothing that kids choose to wear is absolutely not appropiate at all. They like to wear the strangest clothing and then they don't care what they do with their attitude or education. That is where this situation becomes a problem. I believe that children should have their own mind, but not take what they have for grant it. Clothing can be a problem, but also a way of showing your character. Your character does matter in the inside, but part of that is what actions you do on the outside. When the dressing becomes a violation, then we should crack down on it. Other than that, I believe that we should all have our own mind and opinion.

By ironmaiden

December 4, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

My school Learner Support Strategist announced, unequivocably, in professional development meeting that is is NOT the teachers’ job to teach the students responsibility. What has happened to our society?

By HS Teacher

December 4, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

I am in a school system that makes it hard for teachers to enforce policy and rules. Students know the tiger is made of paper.

I love it when students come back to visit me after they graduate. A lot of them are wearing some kind of uniform and ID. The very thing they rebelled against is required AND enforced.

Uniforms would be a good idea. The system should start with Elementary and add a grade each year. Those who do not want to participate will have time to move.

By Tony

December 4, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

Yet the tools of the future are the keys to the jobs these students will be seeking. It behooves educators to stay in touch with technological advances.

Back to dress codes: our district’s policy has a phrase in it I really like. “The principal has the final say of what’s appropriate.” I have had kids wash the silly colors out of their hair (if temporary), called parents to bring changes of clothes for too short shorts or skirts, given oversize t-shirts for students with tops too skimpy, and used rope or belts to secure saggy pants. Schools do not have to put up with such blatant disregard for decency and in Georgia, the law is on the schools’ side.

By steven

December 4, 2007 8:28 PM | Link to this

Anyone who says appearance doesn’t matter has not had to make a living in the real world. Instilling a dress code, and calling on students to look presentable is a good lesson that when you are on someone else’s time, you should look presentable.

By Lee

December 4, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this

I seem to recall similar statements being made about the kids in the 60’s and 70’s…..

Long hair on the boys. Bell bottoms. Tube tops. Hip hugger jeans. Sideburns.

Ya’ll all goin’ to He11. lol

Is it any surprise that things have gotten worse. Heck, you have to monitor what’s on the Disney channel a lot of the time.

My daughter goes to private school. They require uniforms. We love it. After the first month, she likes it. No more running around putting on outfit after outfit in the morning.

The previous comments about preparing the kids for the job market are very relevant. Not too long ago, I was on a selection committee for a staff accountant. Now, to get to the interview stage, you have the credentials to pass the initial screenings. One young lady was doing very well, but I noticed she seemed to have a slight speech impediment. I overlooked it until I saw the tongue piercing. Needless to say, she didn’t get the job.

Really though, this dress code thing is just one more indicator that schools are no longer relevant. If a principal cannot enforce a simple dress code, how is he going to handle the more complicated stuff…. like Tweety Bird key chains….

By sassyann_00

December 4, 2007 9:11 PM | Link to this

I am all for ‘individuality’, but let’s be real. Severly sagging pants make you look like a hoodlum. You need to present yourself in a self-respecting manner if you want to be respected.

As far as being a distraction in school, I can see how that would be possible. Please be yourself, but have enough respect for yourself and your peers to not show your ‘drawers’…

By Mama J

December 4, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Just thinking back, and remembering that I got sent home in the era when just wearing pants to school was a no no, heaven forbid showing some underwear or a bra strap. Though I wholeheartedly agree with uniforms,the biggest obstacle at my goddaughter’s high school is the enforcement of the dress code.The kids see other kids wear non uniform items so they push the envelope, but it depends on who you are, as to whether you will be sent home for wearing something not on the list. And, as another blogger mentioned,some of the teachers’ dress is deplorable too. The last I heard, children learn more from what you do than by what you say. Dress for success—yeah right!!

By Rach8

December 4, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

I am a student and see this problem in both ways. First of all, I don’t agree with uniforms at all. Clothes are a way we express ourselves. I don’t see how we will perform bettre in uniforms. I have never worn them,so I don’t how they really work, but I enjoy wearing what I choose.

Clothes are one thing, btu baggy pants and drawers hanging out is another. I don’t find it a huge problem. There are more important things than shorts, but I think it is wrong how some guys get to let their boxers hang out and go done to their ankles, when other parts of dress codes are enforced so much more. skirts, short shirts, and ohter things are given much more attention than guys wearing shorts. When a girl is wearing a skirt just alittle too small they get a warning or get in trouble, but guys have stuff showing that we don’t wnat to see and don’t have anything said to them.It seems a little unfair. Like I said I don’t worry about it and don’t really care, but i do think there should be some sort of limit.

By gateacher

December 4, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

As an educator, here are my thoughts on the positive things about school uniforms: 1) Uniforms would help blur the socioeconomic lines that exist between groups of students. Students would come closer to seeing and treating each other as equal peers rather than looking down at those who don’t wear clothes as expensive as their own.

2) Uniforms would eliminate most of the dress code problems that schools encounter. No more cleavage or plumber’s crack.

3) Uniforms would help students be more focused in class and less focused on the outfit that Sally is wearing today

4) Uniforms would reduce the amount of money parents spend on clothing, especially for those teens who can’t bear to wear the same thing twice.

5) Uniforms would reduce the amount of time it takes for a teen to get ready in the morning. Sally wouldn’t have to model 5 outfits before she decides what to wear to school.

By John

December 4, 2007 11:10 PM | Link to this

The virtual absence of dress codes in schools and in some places of employment have contributed to a decline in discipline, respect and performance more than any other factor. Shorts, baggy pants, jeans, t-shirts, strapless tops, flip flops, piercings, tattoos and sandals should be banned from every school, office, hospital, courthouse, etc. This is the biggest no-brainer in the world. Anybody who questions it doesn’t deserve to work in any of these environments. What’s on the outside does matter.

By Ron

December 5, 2007 4:41 AM | Link to this

When I joined the Army,I watched a lot of strange hair arrangements hit the floor.Some of these baggy pants boys will be changing to olive drab uniforms,some will opt for the burgundy of KFC,others for Burger King garb.Still others will go for the orange jump suit.If McDonalds can have a dress code,why can’t a school have one?

By Katie

December 5, 2007 5:41 AM | Link to this

I’m all for uniforms—as long as the tax payers don’t have to pay for them. Let the parents pay!!!

By jim d

December 5, 2007 7:20 AM | Link to this

I really have to work today (believe it or not) so don’t have much time to comment.

This one has been blogged to death already and I’m sure almost everyone knows how I feel about dress codes. But for those that don’t, let me say I feel that proponents of dress codes have the an intellect rivaled only by garden tools.

By Old School

December 5, 2007 7:52 AM | Link to this

I, too, am completely for uniforms…especially in our high school. I even have the perfect design and color options: bright orange jumpsuits or black & white striped jumpsuit. Neither would have pockets and students would be required to keep them zipped to the top. This would eliminate sagging and cleavage (although cleavage prevention would require a little more vigilance to enforce.)

School is every student’s primary job and every job has dress requirements. Let them express themselves after “working hours.”

I wish parents would realize the money they would save with school uniforms. Khakis and golf shirts in school colors would free up lots of bucks for their free time.

By V for Vendetta

December 5, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Rach8,

Interesting perspective, but the problem we as teachers face is enforcement. It is very difficult to enforce a “this is OK, but this is not,” rule when you’re dealing with upwards of one thousand students. Furthermore, that difficulty is compounded by spineless teachers and administrators (of which I’m sure your school has at least one or two) who refuse to enforce some, if not all, of the rules. The easiest way to solve the problem is a complete and thorough dress code. I personally don’t like the idea of a dress code, but the reality of the situation supercedes my feelings on personal liberties. That having been said, I also feel a student’s personal liberties, or “rights,” have been blown WAY out of proportion in 2007.

Blame our overly litigious society, blame administrators and principals with no backbone, blame dress code policies that are asinine to begin with: just know that it is easier to institute a dress code than it is to fix all of those problems.

I, for one, dress like a slob when I’m not at work, but come 7am on a weekday … .

As Atticus said: “We can’t always have our druthers.”

By DB

December 5, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Hooray for uniforms!! I love them, and even my children admitted, sheepishly, after 12-13 years at their private school, that they preferred having a uniform. No decisions in the morning: Khaki? Or Khaki? Green shirt? White shirt? End of discussion (and don’t forget your belt!) And it’s a LOT cheaper. Of course, you still have those who try to push a status symbol line by indulging in overpriced purses and shoes, but for the most part, it keeps things pretty much on an even keel.

No one is saying that they can’t express their individuality on their own time. But school is NOT their own time. It is school time. When they grow up and get jobs, they will encounter dress codes that they will have to comply with, or else find themselves out of a job or relegated to the bottom of the promotion heap.

Meanwhile, their “job” now is to learn and prepare themselves to be contributing members of society. In many schools, that means that this “job” has a dress code, too. Unless they are attending a school of fashion design, that does NOT include “expressing their creativity” by showing their butt cracks, their boobs or their underwear.

jim d, if I have to be a garden tool, can I choose to be a pruning shear? :-) It’s ok to disagree with me, but I really did think you were a step above name-calling. :-(

By Mitch

December 5, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

Baggy pants is not the problem. we need the same, if not more energy applies to ensuring our leaders are doing what they need to do to keep the money in our schools and not in someone elses pocket. Baggy pants will take care of its self. Of course, if you can’t think of any thing else to improve, then jump on our youth, and then say baggy panys, like Afro pick, like hip hugger panta, like stack heels, like so many other things in the past that did past…

By OldSchool

December 5, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Ever notice how differently most kids behave when they are wearing dress clothes? We used to call it “Sunday best” but with many churches going casual…well.

Kids act differently when they are dressed up. We all do. It’s like our attitudes adjust to suit our clothing style and we are laid back and casual when our clothes are. Go to a Senior Prom and watch how kids behave in tuxes and gowns (just not on the dance floor!) I’ve seen heckraisers become gentlemen and smart-mouths become demure with just the addition of formal clothing.

I have always believed in the adage “clothes make the man.” I still think school uniforms could be a source of pride and encourage more focus on getting an education.

By jim d

December 5, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

ok here’s the deal DB,

Been there with uniforms.

1) did not save money

2)children didn’t have any more respect for adults just because of the cloths they had on.

3)kids that wanted to get in trouble did regardless of the dress requirements

4)The students still knew who was at what status.

5)students were no more focused in class

All uniforms did was eliminate a means of IDing a kid at a distance since they all looked alike.

By Janine

December 5, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

When discussing this topic, my wise old auntie’s admonition comes to mind:”If you want to move up in the world : Dress for the job you want….not for the job you have”! Not applicable in all situations, but applicable in many.

By Lisa B.

December 6, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

I don’t feel strongly about this issue one way or the other. I don’t think uniforms would be less expensive for me, because my son likes to dress in cheap, torn rags, when permitted. He looks much nicer in khaki pants, polo shirts, and loafers, which is what he wears to church. However, I can’t say that attire is less expensive than his preferred rags and worn, el cheapo sneakers. I put my energy into ensuring my son earns excellent grades, uses nice manners, and acts like he’s got some sense.

By ABVR

December 7, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

Re. “dress codes prepare kids for the ‘real world’”

Fair enough, but if we’re going to use that argument on kids we should be honest enough to admit that “real world” dress codes generally are about overwriting individuality with symbols of a particular corporation (the fast food worker’s smock) or profession (the banker’s dark suit). That doesn’t make them illegitimate, but there is a trade-off involved (individuality for group solidarity). The corporations and professions that impose a strict dress code have, for reasons that make sense to them, made a choice. We should treat it as such.

We should also recognize, and acknowledge, that other corporations and professions make different choices. Those where the message to new hires is not “this is how we do it” but “show me something new” (science, the arts, advertising, broadcasting, journalism, higher education, high technology, etc.) have far looser dress codes. They, too, have made a choice.

We do students (and their defenders) a disservice when we pooh-pooh their arguments about individuality, and muster no better arguments for dress codes than “we say so” and “that’s way it is.”

By SET

December 7, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

ABVR: You have your head in the clouds. It is a typical liberal problem.

Most American students, and all the proletariat children, will be employed in closely supervised lightly trained occupations. They will not be in casual dress working in Silicon Valley. They will be working in uniforms, many with their first name pinned to their shirt (when they are fired it’s easy to switch the name and reissue the shirt).

Don’t tell us about how children need their individuality to get ready to work, quite the opposite.

Raising proletariat children to mouth off whenever they want and wear attention seeking “individualistic” clothing tends to make them unemployable. Liberal schools and staff who themselves couldn’t keep a job in the private sector think it’s cute to crank out these students and don’t care how they are going to compete for jobs and spouses.

There is time to get individualistic later after you have education and a career. School is to prepare students for work and if they are advanced enough, for higher education.

In this our public schools are failing. We are especially failing our minority students who now have historically high chanced of early death and prison - which is what happens when you are never trained to fit in to society, jobs, and the economy.

By jim d

December 7, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Set,

I’m afraid you place too much emphasis on children conforming to dress codes when in fact the issue at hand should be their education, a development of a love for learning, not on conformity. They have a life time to conform but only a few years to explore being a child and doing childish things.

By Old School

December 7, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Our local chamber of commerce head spoke to my CTAE department recently and shared comments made by employers in the area about what they wanted/needed in potential employees (not in any order.): 1. Show up for work on time. 2. Return from lunch on time. 3. Show up for work on Mondays. 4. Work safely. 5. Get along with others. 6. Follow instructions. 7. Show up for work at all.

Notice nothing was said about skills brought to the job but just showing up has become very important. How can we teach dependability if parents are letting their kids come when they want and leave when they want. Just yesterday I had a senior take the restroom pass and return with an early dismissal. His mom is a teacher.

And down here at least, student attitudes and clothing choices are pretty well matched. Sloppy is as sloppy does. The higher achievers don’t sag nearly as much and most tuck in their shirttails.

By jim d

December 7, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

Old school,

I concur that the largest problem emploers have is employee punctuallity followed closely with their inability to pass that simple little test that only requires a bodily function.

I see dress codes in the work place as being totally different from dress codes for students though because in the work place you have a choice, not so in school. (well until you’re 16 anyways)

Let me just say that I actually do diaprove of the baggy—showing crack/underware— fashion of the day. However, I totally support anyones right to look as stupid as they wish. It does me no harm.

By SET

December 7, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

Jim D. My references are high school students. I think of them less as children than I do as workers, potential parents, and criminal defendants.

Your references to love of learning has me thinking of grades 5 through 9. By the time students are in high school it’s later than they (and we) think and it’s time to get ready for work, the army or college. The first two options where most of the students and all of the proletariat go require uniform dress and conformity to survive. So yes I believe conformity needs to be taught in public high school (to some large degree).

The readers of the blog have at least two camps. I am interested mainly in the high school products that go to work, military and prisons. They are the one I believe depend on the public schools for their very survival in this brave new world.

Those students who go to Ivy League Colleges down through the Jr Colleges I believe are less dependent on the public school system. They are more programmed by their parents and by private schools. Not a perfect fit I know but you get the idea.

Concepts intended for the college bound don’t help or work with the larger proletariat class.

By Lee

December 7, 2007 8:24 PM | Link to this

At the end of the day….

This debate about dress codes is simply one more indicator that school administrators and teachers have lost control of their schools.

By won't be enforced

December 8, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

You didn’t mention the most important quote of the entire article - the one in which the school custodian says he wonders if the rule will really be enforced.

That’s the most important thing to discuss here, esp. since we’re talking about APS.

The rule will be made - and they will talk about it enough to get it in the AJC. From there, it disappears.

I take that back - some teachers will try to enforce it. But once they get the kids to the office and the parents complain, it won’t be the kids who get in trouble - it will be the poor teachers who were trying to enforce the rule, which is nothing more than a publicity stunt by the Board.

Even the custodian is trying to tell us!! I can see the poor teacher now in the principal’s office: “Oh, dumb Mr. Smith!! You didn’t actually think we were supposed to enforce that, did you? Get out there, apologize to the parents, and hang your own pants down, too! What did you think? We were here to read and further ourselves????? Ha ha ha ha ha!”

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December 9, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this

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By JJ

December 11, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

YEAH ATLANTA SCHOOL BOARD!! I am so sick of looking at my 12 year old’s dirty underwear and watching his jeans fray at the bottom, wondering if there is any chance he’ll get a job at age 14, let alone after high school with this look. Time to pull up your socks and your pants and pay attention to the only chance at education that you’re ever going to get free!

By Jim

December 11, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

Dress codes are in place for a reason to prevent the students from getting side tracked from what’s important at a learning institution. Who said students are suppose to show individuality at school or through what they wear at school. How about a rule is put in place for the greater good of the learning institution, so that the main focus is on learning and not on what we should wear tomorrow. How was Washington DC?