Get Schooled

By jim d

October 29, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

when large numbers of students aren’t learning: Is it the teacher or the child who is to blame?

Gee, I don’t know but my guess would be “C”, an alternate choice you convienently left out.

(C) “might it be the mandated methods of teaching required by the local schools in efforts to meet AYP as required by NCLB?”

By jim d

October 29, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

students aren’t learning

By whose standards? We see many students failing to learn when in fact they have made vast improvements over where they were just a year before.

With the whole, bogus testing method of determining who has learned by comparing with an entirely different group of students from the previous year, there really can be no actual measurement of what a child has accomplished or of how good a job a teacher has done.

Anyone with but a little intelligence can tell you in order to really find out we simply need to test at the beginning of the year and then test, the same student, again at the end of the to determine what progress has been made.

Teaching and learning are happening in every classroom across the country every day, it is merely the bogus measure that would indicate it isn’t.

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

October 29, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Think of it as an interconnection with Teacher/Student/PARENTS.

The worst case example I can give is Atlanta Public School Systems. From counsellors to students to teachers to parents…… someone has dropped the ball horribly.

The one who suffers in the end? The kids who then become welfare adults and it’s just a viscious cycle.

Learning is an incredible experience.

Atlanta Pearl Girl

P.S. Lifelong student here!

By Lisa B.

October 29, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Some children are more difficult to teach than others for multitudes of reasons; illness, low IQ, behavior problems, etc. etc. Some teachers are more skilled than others. Few teachers reach all children, and some children work well for one teacher and not for another.

I have always said that until a student learns, teaching hasn’t happened. If one of my students can’t identify the parts of a sentence, he didn’t learn it. I tried to teach it to him, but was unsuccessful. In that situation, I keep trying new ideas until the child learns the skills, or we run out of school days. Sometimes it all clicks into place for the child the next year, with a different teacher.

I can’t make them all care, or come to class prepared. However, I believe we can help most of them. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I just don’t believe people set out to fail. Many poor performing students just don’t know how to succeed unless someone teaches them how.

By jim d overload

October 29, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

jim d, Is there an education blog you don’t comment on?

By Tony

October 29, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

The responsibility is joint: parent, teacher/school and community.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Not if I can help it. :-)

By Erin

October 29, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I think it’s a combination of a LOT of things: Teachers not being able to reach everyone, some teachers just not caring, students who either don’t care or don’t even try, TESTING issues (don’t get me started on my opinion of NCLB) and of course, discipline issues in the classroom and out of the classroom, home life issues for some kids, parents who just don’t care or who don’t value education themselves, but most of all, it really comes down the individual student.

If the student has the desire to learn, he or she WILL learn. If the student just doesn’t care, for whatever reason, no amount of coaxing, prodding and legislating will make a difference.

By Erin

October 29, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I think it’s a combination of a LOT of things: Teachers not being able to reach everyone, some teachers just not caring, students who either don’t care or don’t even try, TESTING issues (don’t get me started on my opinion of NCLB) and of course, discipline issues in the classroom and out of the classroom, home life issues for some kids, parents who just don’t care or who don’t value education themselves, but most of all, it really comes down the individual student.

If the student has the desire to learn, he or she WILL learn. If the student just doesn’t care, for whatever reason, no amount of coaxing, prodding and legislating will make a difference.

By iconoclast

October 29, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

There is no magic teaching dust that can be bought to be consistently applied by most teachers to create self-control, effort, and motivation for their students. Much more often than not, parents have the sole power to motivate, guide, and prepare children for a successful adult life. Or not.

On average, students will get the schools (and education) their parents deserve.

By gb

October 29, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

I’m beginning to learn that the stupid testing required by NCLB is interferring with real learning. My child at a Magnet school in Dekalb is ‘required’ to participate in the upcoming Social Studies Fair. My real disappointment was the 30 minutes devoted to learning how to write an outline. I am appalled. In the ‘old days’, we had to read and create well over 10 outlines for a grade. No one can learn my watching a teacher write something one time. Heaven help the future of our children.

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

There are some bad teachers. These people just shouldn’t be in the profession. Either they don’t know the content, they don’t know the pedagogy, they don’t like kids, or a combination. Usually these people find out quickly that they don’t belong in a classroom.

There are some bad students. These people don’t want to learn, don’t care to learn, don’t want to be in school - for a variety of reasons. They are a distraction in the classroom and tend to ‘bring down’ the entire class, disrupting others from learning. These students are NOT the LD students. Most LD students are very sweet and try very hard to learn (in my experience).

IMHO, problem teachers usually remove themselves from the classroom. They change careers because they find that they hate their job. Problem students remain in the classroom from year to year and nothing is done (or at least rarely). That is why I think problem students are more of an issue than problem teachers.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

But when large numbers of students aren’t learning: ?

Bridget,

Do you have some numbers you’d wish to share and the measure used to determine they aren’t learning?

By Sam

October 29, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Two points; #1. I taught for years in an NCLB failing school….Labeled Failing because of the method of testing, not because the students weren’t learning. [ Refer to jim d @2:19 regarding the *bogus testing methods.] In addition to the NCLB crazy testing, we did what jim d mentioned…..beginning of year/end of year testing of SAME students…Rarely was there a student who didn’t show significant improvement.

By high school teacher

October 29, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

It is the responsibility of MTV, Nintendo, Gameboy, XBox, Playstation 1,2, and 3, and every athlete who gets paid a million dollars per game, impgregnates 3 different women in a two-year time span, but can’t write a complete sentence.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Good point JM,

problem teachers usually remove themselves from the classroom.

And if it were not for compulsory education keeping the bottom feeding students in the classroom I believe many of them would remove themselves from the classroom as well. .

By Lori

October 29, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

It is no one’s responsibility for a child’s learning other than that child’s parents. If the teacher or school isn’t adequate for your child, get involved or change schools. The governent is not responsible for your child. You are!!

By jim d

October 29, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Lori,

maybe I’m just an old hard nosed parent, but It isn’t my responsibility to see my child learns. It is my responsibility to assure he is given the opportunity to learn. What he makes of that opportunity is entirely up to him.

By hotlanta

October 29, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

My daughter is a teacher and she said if a LARGE number of kids would put down their Ipods and cellphones maybe they could learn something. She makes them do book reports because some of them can’t do a complete sentence and think for themselves because they are texting all of the time. If she gave them a book report they will go online and print it out and give it to her. She will give them an “F” because she tells them that going to a website and clicking a few times is not reaearch. She makes theme go to the library.

By Mrs. Warren

October 29, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

Wow. How crazy is it that I am writing a paper for one of my Master’s in Education classes on this very subject at this exact moment?!!!

By linda

October 29, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

Learning is obviously the responsibility of both the student and the teacher. How might one tell if the teacher is doing his job? If any students at all can demonstrate learning then the material was taught. At that point the students who cannot demonstrate understanding have to take responsibility for not doing their part in the learning process. The way to tell if a teacher is not doing his job is when the good students (those who are doing their part - listening/asking questions/homework/etc.) do not learn. Sadly this is sometimes the case, as in the valedictorian on Oprah who could not keep up in college. She was simply not taught. (The disgusting reason being that standards at that school had been dumbed down to the point where higher level information wasn’t offered, though as I recall it was presented as such in “AP” classes that were a joke.) If the teacher presents the information and students don’t learn it then it is only the fault of the student. Including when the teacher is boring! We need to end the idea that teachers should be entertainers (this is why we are ending up with a lot of clowns) but certainly should be able to articulate their subject matter clearly and understandably.

By linda

October 29, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

P.S. - If there are no students worthy of being called students in a particular class, that is when it is very hard to tell if a teacher is teaching. No baseline.

By Mrs. Warren

October 29, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

One thing that does scare me a little…I just started my Master’s in Elementary Education. There are students in my class, teachers, who cannot spell, write a paragraph correctly or put a question mark at the end of a question. No wonder we are having problems with teaching and learning.

By Jay

October 29, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Most students don’t want to learn because they’re not convinced learning is important to their success. We keep feeding them this “you can be anything you want if you apply yourself” lie, and not surprisingly, as a result, they mostly want to become musicians, actors and pro athletes. Academics, as evidenced by Britney Spears, Michael Vick, etc., aren’t really relevant to making millions of dollars in those industries.

Parents, do yourselves—and society—a favor and tell little Cameron and Brielle they’ll never become famous entertainers, so they need to study hard and get into a good college to make decent money.

By Stacey

October 29, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

I think it depends on the situation. I had a teacher (in college) who knew the material but simply could not teach. He could lecture and write on the blackboard all day long but I heard Charlie Brown’s teacher and (as far as I was concerned) he wrote using Chinese characters. I took advantage of the tutoring program offered on campus and was able to make it through.

On the other hand, I had (required) subjects that I simply wasn’t interested in and I did the absolute minimum to keep a B average. I could get A’s and B’s with very minimal effort but my sister gave 110% and rarely had above a C average. We simply learned differently and had different abilities.

By Lori

October 29, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Jim d

That will work with older kids, but as a mother of a 4 year old, I was thinking more of the early years of education. For those first few years of school, it most certainly is the parents responsibility.

By high school teacher

October 29, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Teachers can’t shake off all of the blame. Thanks, Linda, for you support of teachers, but a teacher’s job is more than to present the information. Anyone can present information (leading a horse to water). It takes someone special to make it interesting. In the old “you can’t make the horse drink” analogy, a good teacher is one who makes the horses thirsty (in spite of the distractors!). Am I this good teacher? Not yet, but I’m trying!

By Rita

October 29, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, since the inception of NCLB, teachers do not have the time or leeway to teach students how to learn. We must force-feed them facts/information in order to ensure they are “prepared” for the CRCT. We have pacing charts, checklists, standards, and Level 1 plans that must be followed and documented or we face admonishment. Learning can be fun. Teaching facts is boring. If you can teach a child how to learn he/she can be successful. In the classroom…and in real life.

By linda

October 29, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Warren - those soon-to-be “teachers” in your class should do more than scare you, they should really p*ss you off! The fact that school systems put up with their ilk continues to repel more qualified candidates. (Granted, a couple of intelligent people I know can’t spell and have poor grammar but they are not and should not be teachers.) Colleges of Education need to steer these so-called teaching candidates to other fields. Alas, colleges are in business to earn cash and we foolishly allow them to be our educational gatekeepers. There’s a REAL chicken-and-egg conundrum Bridget; how to cut the bull and attract a more talented teaching pool. (We all know what needs to be done, but how to actually get there?)

By DK

October 29, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

Good grief! The excuses! Let’s blame NCLB (seems as if the union got the message out). Before it was class room sizes, lack of technology, not enough pay, yada yada yada! (less developed countries with less money, no tech, and larger classes are kicking out education butts!)

My mom was instrumental in getting me to read before going to K-school. Once in school, we did memorize facts, such as time tables, alphabet, historical dates/activities, chemistry tables, the infamous weekly vocabulary tests, etc. You need a foundation before you can get to critical thinking, decision making, etc.

When they are young, it should be about getting the basics. It may be boring, but seems like we need to return to the 1950’s education model (you, know the system that brought us all the fine people who started our tech boom) where kids were disciplined, challenged and no excuses. I buy older textbooks and I am amazed at how dumbed down the new ones are!

As a property owner who is sick of paying higher taxes for educational failures, time to get back to the basics and tell the parents to get on board or be prepared for little Johnny to live with them forever.

By linda

October 29, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

If making a subject interesting (as much as possible) is a criteria for teaching then there should be videos for class material. Not every teacher has great delivery, and if good enough isn’t cutting it and we actually care enough to do something about it then why don’t we have “Ken Burns AP History,” etc. with teachers there as support for classwork. Like SET says, we have to look at the actions of schools, not what they say. Seriously, I learn a lot more from Ken Burns that I ever did in history class, a lot of which is admittedly my own fault. See, lack of learning CAN be the fault of the student!

By Lisa B.

October 29, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

DK, I am also sick of excuses!

I am tired of teachers making excuses for why they can’t teach, students’ excuses for why they can’t learn, parents’ excuses for why their kids can’t/didn’t/won’t learn. I was raised by a father who preached that “can’t never did a thing.” DK referred to life in the 50’s. The Greatest Generation was GREAT, because they didn’t make excuses. They just rolled up their sleeves and got the job done; whatever it took. We seem to have lost that in this country.

By Bridget Gutierrez

October 29, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

jim d: Why don’t we consider the number of students who drop out every year?

According to the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement, about 4 percent of the state’s high school students dropped out last year. That amounted to about 20,513 kids.

Would you consider those large numbers of students who are not learning, or not?

By luvs2teach

October 29, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

All right kids, my comment today is coming right out of my Master’s level cognitive psych class (which is about how the brain learns - and is not an education class, but a psychology class, and was one of the toughest I ever had, thanks to a no-nonsense professor).

First, teaching and learning are not synonymous. Learning can occur without teaching. Teaching can occur without learning.

Learning is not passive absorption of knowledge - it’s not osmosis, and it takes more effort than watching TV (this, IMO, is where we lose lots of kids…they pay the same type of attention to a teacher as to a tv show, and they expect to pass a test…hey want to be edutained).

Learning requires two main components: attention and motivation. IMO, it’s up to the teacher to plan a lesson and manage a class to maximize attention - parents can help by dealing with their children’s behavioral issues (you know the comments:talks too much, distracts others,cell phone in class etc).

While as a middle school teacher I feel that establishing a positive relationship with a student can help with motivation, I believe it is 90% the parent and child’s job to develop both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. If a parent never checks report cards, never rewards or punishes appropriately, the child will probably never learn any kind of motivation for learning for himself or for others. If the parents show no value for education (and this exists in our society), then the child will likely not develop it either.

We also need to do a better job of teaching kids how to teach themselves (or learn). We threw the baby out with the bathwater when we got rid of memorization - what better way to train your brain than to learn all the state capitals, your times tables, and the prologue to Romeo and Juliet?

I have to teach my kids about the difference between working memory and long term memory, and why copying their notes from the board doesn’t mean they’ve learned a thing (and that’s not on the CRCT, either).

I have to teach them memory tricks and mnemonics to help them to remember - I developed those for myself as a student - my current students have no knowledge of how to do that.

Unfortunately what we seem to have now is an adversarial relationship between parents and teachers - meanwhile the kids are sitting back grinning because they think their off the hook for their own learning.

Ultimately, who is responsible for learning? The LEARNER…with a little help from parents and teachers…that starts strong and is weaned off as they get older.

By thomas

October 29, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

As a man who has been involved in education since 1998, I can tell you this- you’d be surprised at what really goes on classrooms/schools. I have taught in both elementary and middle school. I have taught in lower end, working class and poor schools and in well to do schools surrounded by $600 and $700,000 homes.

You’d be surprised at the kind of people who work in schools and their attitudes towards parents and children. It did not dawn on me until I left the classroom as a regular teacher and had a chance to look at things from a more rational perspective. For every person who should be in a classroom, there is another who shouldn’t be.

I can honestly say that if I had children of my own, I would home school them, unless I just couldn’t afford to do it. Sure the socialization aspect of school is beneficial, but poor instruction and bad attitudes of other students, teachers, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, etc. isn’t all that worth it. I know of teachers, working in schools right now, who are just cruel. This to seven, eight, nine, and ten year olds. Pure mean-spirited bullies. People who don’t care a flip about a child. Will put them down and degrade them for pleasure.

Public school is something else.

By OldSchool

October 29, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this

Parents really need to send their kids to school with the right tools: adequate rest/nourishment, many nights of bedtime stories, family suppers, parent/child interaction, solid set of values, curiosity honed by patient answers to the millions of questions and chances to explore, etc.

Kids really need to come to school eager to learn, with the understanding that life isn’t always fair, that failure can be a learning experience, that you don’t have to like a teacher to learn something valuable from them, that textbooks are pretty good guides, that learning takes time, practice and effort, that success feels good but you have to keep working, that the easy way isn’t always the best way, and that kids (teachers, parents) aren’t always automatically right.

Teachers need to face their classes rested, eager, prepared, flexible, open-minded and open-hearted…with a bag of skills to set the stage for learning from many directions, and confident in the support of the administration and parents.

Mutual respect, open minds, open ears, open hearts should be the uniform of every person on the educational team: parents, kids, teachers, administrators.

I firmly believe that parents/grandparents/and others significant adults are the first teachers every child has. Teachers build on the foundation established in the home and students must embrace their own responsibility.

It takes the team to educate the child.

By luvs2teach

October 29, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this

OMG - before the blog grammar nazis arrest me…

“they think their off the hook for their own learning.”

…should of course read “…they’re off the hook..”

Yes, I know the difference. I was in a hurry.

By Janine

October 29, 2007 8:01 PM | Link to this

Bridget…RE your question to jim d ….

”* about 4 percent of the state’s high school students dropped out last year. That amounted to about 20,513 kids. Would you consider those large numbers of students who are not learning, or not *.

IMHO….those drop out students cannot be cataloged and relegated to a cubby…as “students who are not learning”….There are probably a number of reasons for their dropping out…[1]family problems which may require that they stop school and become wage earners [2] unable to function successfully in the classroom due to being “passed on” in in earlier grades [3] lack of self discipline an motivation to do required work. [4]Maybe legal issues….Probabley others not mentioned. It is my guess, however, that most GA drop outs are a result of poor preparation resulting from “passing on”/social promotion in earlier grades. We all know the so called rules about retention of those students who are unprepared to move on…..and we all know that all students advance without meeting criteria for advancement.

By College Professor

October 29, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this

Currently, the entire responsibility for educating today’s youth falls on the teachers and the TAXPAYERS. Therein is the biggest problem with public education: parents and students have been relieved of all responsibility. If a property owner fails to pay his/her taxes, negative, some serious, consequences follow. If a teacher fails to fulfill his/her responsibility in the classroom, negative, some serious, consequences, follow. If a parent fails to fulfill his/her responsibility as a parent, no consequences for the parent ensue. Somehow, in some way, parents must—repeat—must fulfill their responsibility to their children. No more excuses! Teachers and taxpayers can’t do it all.

Frankly, I’m sick of life forms sitting in my classrooms masquerading as college students who can’t read. I don’t blame teachers. I blame students and especially their parents.

By luvs2teach

October 29, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this

Hopping onto Janine’s point - it is possible for a child to choose not to learn, and for the teacher, no matter how good, no matter how dedicated, to not be able to help.

This isn’t a negative excuse I tell myself to feel better about the kids I can’t reach. This is something I know in my heart because I experienced it first hand.

I was that child.

My sophomore year was a tough one for me, and there were many things going on at home (divorce, mother’s mental illness, neglect). I ultimately ended up getting sent to go live with my grandmother. Neither she nor the wonderful teachers who tried to work with me (by giving me extended time on assignments, opportunities for makeup work, extra tutoring to catch me up on the material I missed skipping class) could help me at that time. I simply did not want to be helped. I was angry at my life and the world, and learning was not an important thing to me at that point. I went from #1 in my freshman class (no kidding) to almost failing 10th. No “strategy” or “learning contract” or “response to intervention” was going to help. I had to work it out myself.

And I did. Eventually. And I got myself back on track.

I will do a lot of things to help a child. When I see that things are not working (and I’ve referred them to the counselor, called home, etc), I have a chat - I ask what’s going on, and if there is anything I can do to help. I might share my story, and I’ll ask them, point blank, “Do you want my help? Is it going to make a difference?” If they say no (and they have), I tell them that I hope they work it out, and that I’m there for them when they are ready. At that point, I have to let it go. I can save some, but I can’t save them all.

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this

I want to comment on the blogger who said that part of a teacher’s job is to make the content interesting. I think this is bull. I am not an entertainer. An entertainer is paid way more than my meager salary and lives a life style way beyond my wildest dreams.

I am a teacher. I provide lessons that enable learning. This does not mean that I wear costumes or sing songs. This means that I explain the content and make it relavent to today’s world. That is my job and I think/hope that I do it well.

If students want to be entertained, they can go to the theater.

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this

An interesting interaction to ponder….

A “good” student will learn in spite of a “bad” teacher.

A “bad” student will not learn, even with a “good” teacher.

By luvs2teach

October 29, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this

JustMe - I’m not sure whether you were referring to my comment about edutainment and teachers needing to plan to maximize attention.

I don’t think all edutainment is good thing (fine on the Discovery Channel, not always great in a classroom) - kids expect learning to be something done for them as passive recipients.

What I meant by maximize attention was not a song and dance, but to plan the lesson well and make them work in such a way that they can’t mentally check out.

No Ben Stein intoning “Bueller, Bueller…antone…” or a teacher like Ditto from Teachers who was so uninspiring he died and class went on as usual.

Someone said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink - well, you can present the material to a student, but you can’t make him think.

By catlady

October 29, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this

I would add that local policy decisions can severely impact learning. Example: our system does not allow more than 30 minutes homework (total, all classes put together) per school night below high school level. (Some influential parents of lazy kids got tired of doing so much for them.) Children who don’t do their homework cannot suffer any negative effects (no staying in at recess, certainly no lowering of grade). Unfinished classwork cannot be sent home for homework with any consequences attached (see above). Children cannot look words up in the dictionary (I swear that is the directive we got!) No spelling tests. I expect that writing the times tables will be thrown out momentarily.

We have been directed to “make” students successful. This is in a classroom with regular kids of all skill levels (we also never hold a student back, no matterhow badly they fail the CRCT), children with behavior disabilities, MI and MOID kids, ESOL kids, kids who are absent, kids who are pulled out for interventions, kids who cannot see the board, etc. So we dumb down the expectations until we find something the child can do successfully.

Now they tell us the SST process is at a standstill. We cannot even begin the referral process to meet until we have a minimum of a month of daily data on all the interventions we have done (dates, length, who was in the group, what we did, what the results were)(when do we have time to teach?). If we do get an SST, it doesn’t matter anyway. Unless a child is obviously severely handicapped, they will be placed in the “succeeding” tier and not eligible for additional services or testing.

I am now to the point of being unwilling to refer any child. I will just pretend, as does our central office, that they are all just fine. Welcome to Lake Woebegone, GA!

The fact that we have 5th graders who cannot subtract 8 from 10 without using their fingers is a sad testimony to how well this “works”. And this isn’t even the bottom math group!

By Janine

October 29, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

Justme….you hit on one of my real issues with education today….“I am not an entertainer.” In all of my years of schooling….and Lord knows there were a lot of years….I NEVER EVER experienced a teacher who did any more than, as you say.. provide lessons that enable learning. My teachers/professors/instructors presented material. No one ever dressed up and made even the slightest attempt to grab my attention. That was my job…to ATTEND to the lesson. We had texts , paper, pens, libraries.

In fact, my colleagues and I have often thought that one of the reasons students have such a difficult time in high school[often dropping out] and college [unable to make it] is because of the elementary/middle school strategies that are encouraged by educarats and lean heavily on Entertainment!

By Sam

October 29, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

PRIVATESCHOOL/HOMESCHOOL/PRIVATESCHOOL/HOMESCHOOL/PRIVATESCHOOL/HOMESCHOOL!!!!/NOT BECAUSE OF THE QUALITY OF THE TEACHERS ….[TEACHING IS LIKE ALL PROFESSIONS, THERE ARE THE GOOD AND THE BAD]…. BUT BECAUSE THE TEACHERS ARE FORCED TO CATER TO THE DISINTERESTED ,UNMOTIVATED, UNPREPARED STUDENTS SITTING ALL AROUND YOUR CHILD,,, AND THE CURES DU JOUR PROMOTED BY THE EDUCRATS.

By high school teacher

October 29, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

I was the blogger who posted that teachers need to make it interesting. I was also the blogger who said that we need to make the horse thirsty. I have never tried, but how hard is it to lead a horse to water anyway? If our job is simply to “present material to a student,” then why are we complaining about our pay? How hard is it to write notes on an overhead and put it in front of the studnents? Anyone can do that, and they don’t even need a degree!

You can make school stuff interesting without being an entertainer. You can at least establish a relationship with the kids so that they think you are interesting. I never liked math until I had Mrs. Heckman in 8th grade, who made things interesting. She let us know that she cared about us. Because of that, I cared about her class.

I don’t wear costumes or sing and dance in the classroom either (well, maybe during homecoming :). Granted, there are some things that you can’t spice up. There are only so many ways to teach the quadratic formula. But I know that there is more to teaching than simply presenting information. I don’t think we should have to go to college for four years just to present information.

Please understand that I am not saying that students are not absolved of responsibility. I am saying that teachers need to quit looking at the other excuses for their high failure rates. Maybe there is something that we can do to help motivate a student to want to learn.

By Real MS Teacher

October 29, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

Please excuse any typing errors in this as I am writing it quickly in order to move on to my other obligations.

My teachers/professors/instructors presented material. No one ever dressed up and made even the slightest attempt to grab my attention. That was my job…to ATTEND to the lesson. We had texts , paper, pens, libraries.

Get real!!! The above comment is naive at best. This is the 21st century. We aren’t going back to the “good old days” no matter how they are idealized. We sat in those classrooms in a different era. Today’s world is 24-7 and high-interest driven. The very fact that you are engaging in this blog is proof of that. Times change….and people must as well. I’m not an entertainer, but I am one who believes authentic engagement is critical to real learning. I have the test scores, accolades, and students using their knowledge in future years to back this up.

I read this blog frequently, but I am unable to post because the posting hours do not coincide with my teaching responsibilities. I find that odd since this is a blog about education. If people put half as much energy into creating meaningful, engaging learning experiences ALL of our students would come out ahead.

I fully expect to get attacked by the faithful bloggers on this post. Never fear, the teachers in my school that students & parents detest (both becuase of their attituded & archaic instruction) also be-little me! :-)

By Janine

October 29, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

RE: If our job is simply to “present material to a student,” then why are we complaining about our pay? How hard is it to write notes on an overhead and put it in front of the students? Anyone can do that, and they don’t even need a degree!

I don’t really think anyone can do that, HST. Like other professions, you can’t teach what you don’t know.. no matter what kind of rapport you have with students. [And BTW, back in the day, I never had a teacher who used an overhead!!!! Not in any grade nor college.] My parents and I paid big tuition for me to learn what my professors knew. Now granted, I was not an Ed major, so I cannot speak for that area. However, after the 3rd or 4th grade, my teachers [and later my professors] presented by lecture or example, gave instructions, guided practice, corrected errors, evaluated performance…. If I had not already had practice in learning in this way from the early grades, I am not sure I would have made it.

By Sam

October 29, 2007 11:23 PM | Link to this

• I have the test scores, accolades, and students using their knowledge in future years to back this up.*

I would venture to say that all teachers on this blog who have been in the profession for a reasonable amount of time could say the same…..even those who might not consider authentic engagement [to use the edujargon of the day] to be a part of their strategy.

By luvs2teach

October 29, 2007 11:51 PM | Link to this

I think people are confusing meaningful and engaging lessons with entertaining the students.

In my class, I typically use an LCD - no overhead for me, no thanks. If I’m lecturing (which is maybe 20-40 % of the time) I use powerpoints (written by me) often with diagrams, animations, and video clips (also sometimes made by me) embedded. I use those things to keep it interesting - and it gives me a break. While the video segments run (typically 5 minutes, tops) I can monitor and make sure that they are taking notes on the lecture and not writing notes to their friends. I couldn’t do that when I was attached to an overhead. I may also do a demo if it’s something that’s either too dangerous or complicated for the kids to do themselves.

I keep the talky-talky part to 15 minues or so, and then get the kids involved - mostly in a lab or some kind of discovery activity. Sometimes it’s working on problems that they then present to the class from their own whiteboards. No one gets off scott-free from paying attention. That’s the point. I love Bill Nye the Science Guy, but everyday in a science class can’t be that way.

By Vernon Catron

October 29, 2007 11:51 PM | Link to this

Yes, there is a difference between learning and teaching. You can not force students to learn at school if their parents are not actively involved in their education process. For children to be successful parents need to teach their children to be accountable for their actions, to respect adults and their fellow students. It might be a shock for some parents but, your child is a disrespectful and obnoxious brat who thinks the rules do not apply.

The current state of education is dismal where teachers can not teach and guide students. Teachers in public schools have to teach students to pass state mandated tests and be administrators. In looking at the usual information on the state tests they do nothing for the real skills needed in today’s world. Many students can not perform simple math needed to balance a checkbook, write a grammatically correct Email, or speak in a coherent and understandable manner.

I have worked as a substitute teacher in middle and high schools. I really do know the subjects that I taught algebra, trig, calc, general math, English, earth science, chemistry, and business courses. Several people in previous replies stated many students do not know how to learn, I agree. I believe the reason many do not know how to learn is the fault 1st their parents, 2nd the education system dummying down of the school system. In my humble opinion there still needs to be 2 tiers of public education vocational and college preparatory. Not everyone is suited for college, and yes we still need people schooled in trades. A tiered system is not discriminatory and does require parents, students and teachers to work together to find the best fit (not based on race, color, creed, sex or disability).

By john

October 30, 2007 4:55 AM | Link to this

It’s the teacher’s. They want to blame everyone but theirselves. Low pay, get another job or shut up. Too many student’s in the class, grow up and become a real teacher. Our teachers had 25 to 30 in a class. Year round school is what most teachers want. It gives them the off time thru out the year instead of just the summer.

By serafino

October 30, 2007 6:07 AM | Link to this

I don’t know who to blame. I only know that my brain damaged child just made Honor Roll again. No, the school system we live in doesn’t have a record of this kid’s diagnosis. They only see the thick glasses and the ‘willing to keep trying’ attitude. We watched as another kid got labeled with an IEP and then got shuttled from grade to grade, with excuse after excuse made about why we couldn’t hold the little darling back until material was mastered. Neither kid may ever live an independent life, but they will be proud graduates of public education. Heaven help the rest of you depending on this system. If your kid is “average” or “normal,” please do them a favor and do whatever it takes to get them an education not judged by NCLB.

By jim d

October 30, 2007 7:10 AM | Link to this

I sat last night sipping a scotch and watching the only thing worth watching on TV on a monday evening when it suddenly occured to me that learning really is the responsibility of one being.

Our Maker.

Watching stars attempting to learn to dance reminded me that we each have natural abilities and limitations based on brain activity which is unique to each of us. As is our ability to learn certain concepts.

Some of us will be scientists and others will be, say, teachers. Is one more valuable than the other? Is one more intelligent than the other? Perhaps, but only by our measure.

The bottom line here is that some of us will learn to dance and others will have two left feet. And that really is ok if we can learn to accept, no, embrace those differences.

By Lee

October 30, 2007 7:18 AM | Link to this

I think we can all agree that the ideal situation is for all three (parents/teachers/students) to be fully engaged in the learning process.

As to the question of who is responsible, I think that depends on the stage of education the child is in.

For example, in the pre-school years, the responsibility falls almost exclusively to the parent. Once the child enters school, the teacher assumes a large percentage of the responsibility for the formal education. By grade twelve, the student should be self-sufficient and primarily responsible for his/her education.

The biggest problem I see is that the transition to self-sufficiency varies from student to student (aptitude, intelligence, environment etc all play a role) but the schools want to base instruction by age/grade grouping.

By cg

October 30, 2007 7:28 AM | Link to this

It’s the frickin regulations. Once you get designated as something at a public school, that’s it you’re that regardless. It’s like an actor being pigeonholed into certain types of roles, if you’re special ed now, than you will always be special ed even if you don’t need the services anymore. If you’re gifted you will always be considered gifted and given those services and privileges even if you can no longer do the work.

We teach way to much to the test now. We are teaching students to regurgitate facts, one of the reasons they run to the web for their reports, not to think for themselves. It used to be you had to show an understanding of the material by building upon it, now you spit out a few facts and you’re done. It’s funny watching kids come home from college and hearing how they are being asked to think now, not just regurgitate.

By Old School

October 30, 2007 7:33 AM | Link to this

Wow, John (at 4:55 a.m. this morning) It sounds like you know exactly what is going on in my brain. Do you actually KNOW that ALL teachers feel this way? Have you actually read the posts by actual teachers (mine included) and speak from undisputed fact?

I’ve never complained (in 33 years of teaching) about my pay. I’ve had another job (cartography, plant engineer). I AM grown up…57 years old and a grandmother. I can’t shut up because I need to cover some new material today. I’ve never blamed “everyone but theirselves” (which should actually be himself or herself because “everyone is singular.) I have consistently taken responsibility for my actions and shortcomings. I have no problem with being evaluated or having parents spend time in my lab. I’m not a fan of year-round school but choose to adapt to whatever the calendar approved each year in my school system. I would rather have a large class than a small one but some students have discovered they can fly under the radar in a large class and I admit to losing some of those over the years.

I appreciate your expertise on what ALL teachers know, do, want, need, whatever. And I REALLY appreciate the teachers who managed to reach you during your school days and teach you something useful…but maybe not so much the English teacher who tried to improve your grammar, sentence structure, and composition. That person gets my heartfelt sympathy.

By jim d

October 30, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

OUCH!!

Old School,

Are we having a difficult morning or did john just really hit a nerve?

Smile sweetie. :-)

By Jeff

October 30, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

My points have already been made, most notably by JustMe.

I will, however, reiterate:

Individuals not learning is a problem caused by the individual in question and possibly the parents. I say possibly the parents because there are in fact great parents of students who flat out refuse to do anything, no matter the consequences from the school or the parent.

Large groups of individuals not learning seems to me to be a symptom of a society-wide problem. (Namely, not TRULY valuing a solid education. Sure, everyone gives lip service to it, but what do your ACTIONS say you value??)

As far as “edu-tainment” goes: My lectures were (and will be, when I go back to post-secondary) some of the most detailed and informative lectures you could ever POSSIBLY be presented with. I strove to make it on your level, but just out of your grasp so that you had to put in the effort and not simply sit there. But that was mostly for my “A” level students, as a former professor of mine would put it. My lectures would also contain enough of the step-by-step so that if you wanted to sit there, pay attention, and not think, you would still learn enough to make a C in my class. Not that I would ever recommend you for a job in the field that I was teaching, but you would at least know the basics.

The student reaction to this? Well, it was pretty well documented on this blog. Basically, apathy and whining at best. Outright physical assaults at worst. Most somewhere in between.

The parent reaction? Quite a few good, the more vocal ones (with one or two exceptions) quite bad.

Again: Sure you give “valuing a solid education” lip service. What do your ACTIONS say you value??

By V for Vendetta

October 30, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

Depends on the scenario:

Overall failure to learn: Blame idiotic educrat “flavor of the month” teaching styles and standardized tests.

Class failure to learn: Blame the teacher. That’s right, I said it! If there is a class problem (or multiple classes in the case of high school), it is most likely an ineffective teacher at fault.

Individual failure to learn: Blame the PARENTS, not the student. The students, like all human beings, are products of their environments. If education was paramount in their homes, they will understand the importance of paying attention and working hard. It if wasn’t, they will fail, not try, and their idiot parents will come to their defense.

Failure of a county to learn: Blame the super and associated board members. Please. Someone.

Failure of a state to learn: Blame the DOE for instituting asinine new teaching methods such as the “new Math” BS.

Failure of a country to learn: Blame NCLB, the Dems, the Republicans, and the fools who elect them.

Failure of a society to learn: Blame organized religion.

Failure of a blogger to learn: Blame me, I’m sure I had something to do with it.

By WFC

October 30, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

I’m retired after 27 years of teaching and four years as an administrator. Here is what I’ve learned:

By jim d

October 30, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

WFC,

I’m just old and what I have learned in this lifetime was best explained by Will Rogers.

“Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects”

By high school teacher

October 30, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Luvs2teach, great contrast of engaging vs. edutainment! V, good job of stepping on toes (which needs to be done every once in a while).

By Old School

October 30, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

Actually, jim dear, I just have an overwhelming urge to take away everyone’s broad paint brush.

Learning styles differ. Teaching styles differ. Supervisory styles differ. Blogging styles…well, you get my point.

There’s never going to be a perfect “fix” for Georgia’s educational woes. South Georgia life is different from Metro Atlanta life. Family values differ from family to family. Nobody is completely right and nobody is completely wrong.

I found this statement from V to be very interesting. “If you produce a child, make that child’s happiness and success your NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.” AS I SEE IT, too many young parents don’t know how to accomplish this except by giving their children STUFF instead of themselves. Our goal in raising our own children was to help them attain the tools they would need to be successful and lead happy, productive lives. They always knew it was up to them. We just modeled our expectations by living the kind of lives we wanted them to have. Education was a priority as were family meals. It was hard work and it wasn’t hard…it was worth it.

And I’m smiling and happy down to my toes!

By mmm

October 30, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Old School. Amen!

Many of us have become short-sighted.

Planning for the drought. Testing factoids rather than teaching kids how to learn and than having the adults show that learning is important. Wanting to win the war with extremists with only force, rather than recognizing and figuring out the most effective balance or force, ideas, and restraint to increase the number of people that are attracted to our behavior rather than their rhetoric.

Our fixes must come from our individual actions day to day.

By jim d

October 30, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Old School,

Taking away the brush I understand, my fear was for what you may have wanted to do with them. :-)

Here’s hoping your day is better than mine.

By SET

October 30, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

THE SCHOOL. I don’t care how dull the kid is, how bad the parent is, etc. The school is the part of this triangle that has the money and the facilities.

US Public schools and the Catholic schools have been educating the lower classes - and that is who we are talking about (the professional and upper class can take care of themselves) for over a Century. They have managed to educate millions of immigrants, blacks, Mexicans, you name it - all the way up to 1960 without the problems we have now.

They did so by IQ testing, tracking, segregation, corporal punishment - whatever, but they educated. it didn’t matter that the parents didn’t speak english, that the father was away to war and the mother worked, all the excuses we have now we had then.

If the schools would stop worrying about self esteem, stop peddling political correctness, stop trying to forcibly integrate, and in general stop trying to remake people into little utopian robots maybe they could again teach kids to read and write.

Kids do as they are expected. They are natural born conformists. If the schools put out an unambiguous message that you perform at certain reasonable levels (for you) or you go to the locked facility on the other side of town, MOST kids will comply.

By Gail

October 30, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

I’m a parent and I take issue with the poster who said that as long as the smart kids learned something, then the teaching was adequate. All kids do not learn the same way and I think a teacher is doing a disservice to students if they believe they can teach the exact same way to every child and expect every child to learn the same information. Did it ever occur to that poster that the smarter children might have already learned the information before they came to class? In that case, the teacher might not have taught anything to those students.

Not that I’m trying to bash teachers, because they have a big responsibility and don’t usually get enough credit. However, as the parent of a child with a learning disability, I have to spend a lot of extra time with my son making sure that he is “getting it” in the classroom. Over the course of his schooling, I have found varying degrees of willingness from his teachers to “go the extra mile” to make sure he “gets it”.

By JustMe

October 30, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

I guess one topic that needs discussion on this blog is this….

What is the responsibilities of a public school (K-12)?

Maybe you think that schools should do a combination of these?

And, whatever you do think that the school’s responsibilities are, how can they get the appropriate resources to accomplish what you want?

By V for Vendetta

October 30, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Can’t take credit Oldschool! That was WFC that said that.

Agree with your comments, though. Broad brush comments are easily spouted, but usually far from reality. As is the case with many topics on here: a case by case study is needed.

By Old School

October 30, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Sorry about that V, I guess all that speed reading I took in B’ham public schools has me zooming right past vital information!

Maybe if parents were required to spend a few hours substitute teaching, they’d have a clearer picture of some of the challenges we face daily.

By jim d

October 30, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

Actually JM,

John Taylor Gatto did a piece that touches on the purpose of Schools that is a rather interesting point of view. Titled “Against School”

In part he states: “if we wanted to we could easily and inexpensively jettison the old, stupid structures and help kids take an education rather than merely receive a schooling. We could encourage the best qualities of youthfulness-curiosity, adventure, resilience, the capacity for surprising insightsimply by being more flexible about time, texts, and tests, by introducing kids to truly competent adults, and by giving each student what autonomy he or she needs in order to take a risk every now and then.”

Feel free to google it and read the entire thing.

By JustMe

October 30, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

JD-

So then, from your post, are we to gather that you feel that schools should exist to simply impart content?

By Old School

October 30, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

“…encourage the best qualities of youthfulness-curiosity, adventure, resilience, the capacity for surprising insight….”

We had a reading clinic for our CTAE instructors and an interesting point came up. Many kids don’t seem to have “movies” in their heads when they read. You know, an imagination that draws them into the book and then reappears in “…curiosity, adventure, resilience, the capacity for surprising insight….” They just intone words because they recognize them.

A possible explanation for this is the instant gratification from the internet and other sources that don’t require imagination because that has been supplied. I have students who ask “to look on the internet for something to draw” when we have a few minutes of class left before the bell. My animation students don’t seem to be able to create their own background scenes or characters but instead will duplicate and maybe slightly alter one from “the internet.”

“The Easy button” instead of “the road less traveled” just might be one of the problems in Georgia education.

By DB

October 30, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Old School, I think you’re on to something when it comes to the instant gratification that kids have come to expect from the internet dampening imagination. I’ll even take it a step further, and say that the instant gratification extends to cell phones, music, etc. Everything is at the tips of their fingers, and there is no discernment taught. I don’t think it’s curiosity that sends kids to the internet to find out things — I think it’s the thought that no matter what they could come up with, someone else has probably already done it better, so why reinvent the wheel? (especially in this age of Hope Scholarships and expectations of above-average performance.)

Kids (and most adults) don’t realize that learning is a process, not a task. Skip part of the process, and you lose the valuable cognitive exercise that helps you succeed on a later task. Too much emphasis on facts, and not on HOW to learn.

By jim d

October 30, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

JM,

Your comprehension never ceases to amaze me. Please re-read what I posted “Gatto did a piece “—-” that is a rather interesting point of view”. I did not expound or interject any other thoughts other than it was interesting.

Main Entry: in·ter·est·ing

Function: adjective

Date: 1768

: holding the attention : arousing interest

By jim d

October 30, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

DB & old school,

I’m not too sure I agree.

jmho,

A teacher that has grown with the technological changes over the years might be able to come up with a lesson plan that uses tools like computers and cell phones, text messaging, etc. to reach kids that seem isolated and wrapped up in this technology.

By DB

October 30, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

jim d, yes, a teacher might be able to come up with such a plan. I, in social mode, tend to discourage further dependence on such isolating factors such as text messaging, etc. As I told my daughter, “If you have something to say, SAY it, stop typing it!” Kids seem to go to great lengths (IMming, texting, etc.) to avoid situations that ideally require conversation and face-to-face communication skills. I worry that this form of communication, especially starting at an early age, will adversely impact their social interactions and isolate them even more.

I’ve noticed that kids seem to have a great deal of trouble with synthesis. Don’t know whether it’s just the age group I’ve substitute taught (middle school/lower high), but kids will seemingly spend HOURS looking for ONE comprehensive source, instead of collecting the same information from a variety of sources and coming up with a synthesized conclusion of their own. Lazy? Too many years of being spoon fed? I don’t know, but I do know that when their history teacher limits them to ONE internet source, and requires 6 other additional sources (i.e., books, magazines, etc.), I cheer!

By jim d

October 30, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

“when their history teacher limits them to ONE internet source, and requires 6 other additional sources (i.e., books, magazines, etc.), I cheer!”

ME TOO! but then I’ve always encouraged my children to check and recheck their sources and not to take any one source as gospel, to make up their own mind as to what was.

By Old School

October 30, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Business and industry use standard English in their communications. This paper (for the most part) also uses standard English as do most all print media. Textbooks, novels, technical manuals also use standard English (although those written by some other countries have an interesting take on that). Students are communicating in shortcut forms and it’s creeping into their writing. Too many seem to rely on grammarcheck and spellcheck offered by their computers. Too few have handwriting that is legible. Fewer still read solely for pleasure. And when are students challenged to do math in their heads?

Technology is a wonderful tool but the brain is far more amazing…when it is used. Is it so wrong to want kids to think? to have a vivid imagination? to question? to simply make an attempt, fail, and try again…and WANT to?

By Lisa B.

October 30, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Old School, Sorry about the lousy handwriting. Many elementary school teachers, my self included, quit teaching cursive and penmanship years ago, especially when we had to focus all energy on getting kids to pass THE TEST. I haven’t taught cursive in years, though cursive WAS added as a GPS standard in lower elementary. Still, if its not on the CRCT, I see little focus on penmanship.

By coffeeaddict

October 30, 2007 8:01 PM | Link to this

The responsibility lies with the parents. Notice I typed “parents” with an “s”. This is because it is the responsibility of the two people that created the individual. If every parent accepted the responsibility, school systems would not need to spend millions indoctrinating teachers in the latest educational fads. Teachers should be able to walk in and present the information for the day. Parents should place a high value on education. Parents taking on the responsibility for learning would also take care of the discipline problems in schools.

By OldSchool

October 30, 2007 8:47 PM | Link to this

Hi, Lisa B! I find it interesting that there is a written portion to the SAT now and we all know that the SAT is the holy grail of testing.

In a recent “Writing to Win” session, it was shared with us that when students “print” their responses to essay type questions on the SAT and other tests, those responses are shorter and use simpler language. They also lack depth of thought and do not fully develop a central idea or theme. I’m convinced that there is some elegant connection between the hand writing in cursive and the brain that manuscript (printing) just doesn’t make. (I’d love to know how keyboard responses stack up.)

I wonder what else we’ve lost to technology. No word document is as powerful looking as the handwritten Declaration of Independence or the original Constitution. (By the way, one of my hobbies is calligraphy.)

By high school teacher

October 30, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this

Interesting, Old School! When the SAT writing part was first introduced and I went to a few inservices, many of the model essays were in print. That’s weird!

By C.R.H.

October 30, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

It doesn’t really matter who is responsible for “learning” because it is the teachers who will be held accountable. If the students do not wish to learn they shouldn’t be forced to sit in these terrible conditions at schools. They should be allowed to move on into those high paying (not to mention glamorous and FUN) jobs that are just waiting to be filled by the functionally illiterate, lazy, unskilled, unable-to-follow simple instructions, unmotivated, chronically tardy/absent little darlings that find school so very difficult! BTW, I’ll bet if we linked those gov’t checks, section 8 vouchers, welfare and other “goodies” we hand out to school attendance, behavior and PERFORMANCE, we would see some changes. Imagine a teacher making a phone call to the welfare office to get a check withheld because a student hasn’t turned in homework in a week! I’ll bet that kid brings some work in the next day!!!

By DB

October 30, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

Did anyone see the research that was done in 2005, by the MIT writing director Les Perelman? His study found that the length of the essay had a direct correlation to the score — i.e., the longer the essay, no matter HOW badly written or full of factual errors — the better the score! At least 400 words is best. You can believe THAT study made the rounds. Many students were being told “Don’t worry about what you’re saying — just keep writing as fast as you can, as much as you can, before the time is up.” The guide for SAT scorers tells the scorers that essays should be graded according to their writing quality, not their facutal accuracy. As many English teachers bemoaned: Great — now even writing is “taught to the test.” “Never mind, kids, whether what you write is garbage. As long as it’s written beautifully, it doesn’t matter!” Scorers have about 4 minutes per essay to read it — so no time for re-reading.

Ironically, just holding up an essay to a scorer for a quick glance ended up with a similar correlation on score — the longer essays were graded higher than the shorter essays.

So … I wonder if someone writes in cursive, it takes up more space than writing in print … and seems longer? :-)

By high school teacher

October 31, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

I know that I am digressing from teh topic, but the first SAT writing portion was administered until Fall 2004 or Spring 2005. I don’t think that the Perelman study applies to the SAT essay - students only have 25 minutes to write it. The Scoring Guide for the essay is at the College Board website.

By high school teacher

October 31, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Sorry! That should read, “was not administered until…”

I haven’t had caffeine yet this moring.

By SET

October 31, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff’s Comment: “Individuals not learning is a problem caused by the individual in question and possibly the parents.” Is incorrect. What is happening in the public schools is supposed to happen. The schools are designed to produce exactly the results they are producing.

Many of the readers here are shocked, shocked! at what is happening in the urban schools. I’m not. The results we see are no accident.

If the schools really wanted to educate, which they don’t, they would be using the tactics that result in education. The public schools are not here to educate students, they only pretend to do so. The parents but into the pretense because they are themselves clueless, the want to believe and they have their attention elsewhere.

Those parents who are realists have already removed their kids from the Public Schools.

The teachers don’t get it for the most part. They are working their lives away in non-schools.

The public school kids are the last people to blame for the poor results. they have no control over where they go to school and they have no frame of reference to understand what is happening to them by virture of the school their family selected for them to attend.

For the most part the students are doing exactly what is expected of them. They are conforming to their herd.

By DB

October 31, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

high school teacher, Perelman was in a position to evaluate essays due to his position as a director of undergraduate writing assessment at MIT and by attending a writing conference in the spring of 2005 that featured the new exam. At that point, the exam had been given at least twice — in the fall and in the spring:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/04/education/04education.html

By high school teacher

October 31, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

DB, I stand corrected! However, I would not encourage students simply to write a lot either.

By DB

October 31, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

high school teacher, I can see where some English departments would definitely encourage kids to write until their little fingers were nubbins. After all, if they are getting great SAT writing scores, the school must be doing a good job teaching such a fundamental skill, no? At least, that’s what they can claim! I do know that this article was a hot topic of conversation the month before my son took the SAT in the spring of ‘06, because a teacher brought it in and, just for fun, his class wrote 400 words out just to see how long a 400-word essay looked handwritten (since most are typed these days) :-)

By Susan

November 1, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

Expect the drop-out rate to go way up in the next few years. Starting in the 08-09 school year, many high schools will only offer college prep diplomas. It seems Georgia will be following the lead of Texas - where Bush claimed such an improvement in the SAT scores - but it was because so many kids dropped out because a college prep diploma was either 1) not what they wanted or 2) not realistic. We need students to be able to take technical classes by 10th grade to prepare them for a trade. Until we realize and accept that there are many students who will be perfectly suited for jobs as mechanics, plumbers, day care workers, LPNs, and so on, we will be facing high drop out rates. What a waste.

By jim d

November 1, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Ahh yes Susan,

The Texas miracle where drop out rates decreased and graduation rates increased, with fewer kids actually getting a diploma.

Yep, that should work here too!

By luvs2teach

November 1, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Despite the fact that I think teaching and learning are not synonymous, and that I think students need to taught to be responsible for their own learning and then take over the job themselves, I do recognize my role in helping to achieve that successfully.

That being said, let me present some real-life (right-out-of-my-school scenarios - although not necessarily this year) and pose a question: whose fault is it this child isn’t learning?

So, who is responsible for the learning of these children?