Get Schooled

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

I’m going to hold the same line here that I did on the original Germs topic earlier this week:

Except in the case of known aggressive students, personal privacy should be the rule, and NO ONE has ANY reason to violate that.

By SET

October 26, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Too bad I’m not wrong, but I maintain that the public schools are not in place to educate of to care for the kids, they are there for other reasons - at least based on the results we have nationally from the public schools.

So accordingly their approach to this problem will be along their demonstrated real mission. Keep the money flowing and the Educrat jobs secure, while indoctrinating the new proletariat to be a permanent underclass. So where does (any) disease control fit into this? It doesn’t.

They won’t do anything to scare off the sheep, and they don’t care a bit about the safety of the students or employees (they will claim to, but actions speak stronger than words). Thus I predict that the schools will minimize the danger and do little to warn anybody about anything - except management personel they don’t want to have to replace (who will get the better briefing).

I feel confident about that prediction.

Until people die in a particular school district, or worse, get permanently disfigured by surgery and come back to class so everybody has to see them everyday - Schools will minimize the problems. When the disease becomes embarassing the schools will implement highly visible cleaning excercises while simultaneously minimizing the danger.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Sorry Jeff, I disagree.

In the case of communicable or contagious ( example, AIDS, tuberculosis etc.) diseases, I think the health of the public at large should override the individual privacy rights.

And since our government has basically abdicated it’s responsibility to ensure that our borders are secure to prevent the unhealthy aliens from spreading their diseases to the general population, this issue becomes even more important.

Due in large part to the 12-30 million illegal aliens (depending on whose estimate you beleive), diseases such as tuberculosis, polio, etc, which was once almost totally eradicated in the United States, are now making a comeback.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with infectious diseases, be my guest. I prefer a little more information.

By SET

October 26, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Public Health law has been around for almost as long as human history. Your privacy notions are quaint, eccentric, and not based anywhere in human legal history.

Do you remember the story of typhoid Mary? The flu epidemic in the early 20th century and how many people died - how fast? The syphillis epidemic in the USA prior to WWII?

Prior to the discovery of anti-biotics the US alone has some really interesting Infectous Disease outbreaks. We also had some really interesting cities. Cities & Disease are an interesting syndrome. Once people live in high density, disease can run like a fire.

If you want your privacy you need to go live on a barren ranch in isolation. If you live in a city where the right conditions can kill 1/3 to 1/2 the population in a few months, you have to accept the requirement of a strong public health system that overrides privacy whenever medically required.

Or your cities occasionally get snuffed out.

Put it his way. firetrucks can drive on your lawn, smash your fences and tear it up your property to put out a fire at a neighbor’s property. they own you nothing, no compensations for damages, when they do so. Disease control is no different.

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Once again, you show your own ignorance. AIDS is only communicable by contact with bodily fluids, and it is common sense to avoid such contact in the first place. (And disinfect yourself thoroughly if such contact is made through no fault of your own.)

Matter of fact, most of the deadlier diseases are spread through the same mechanism.

Here is the best you’re gonna get from me:

Treat EVERYONE as if they have whatever disease you are afraid of. Then, the precautions are already in place and you don’t have to violate their privacy to find out if they do, in fact, have it.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

With your experience, you should have figured out by now that schools do as they please and answer to no one. Until this changes nothing else can nor will it.

By SET

October 26, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Jeff: Only someone not experienced in medicine and disease control can make an argument like you do about AIDS. There is no escape from HIV by “virtuous” people. Once you have a population - as we do in CA - infected with HIV you now have a second wave of infectous disease (tuberculosis, for one) riding on the immunosuppressed HIV population to spread to everyone else.

The cities cannot have a herd of untreated AIDS patients running around and say “it’s just them”. Those compromised patients now can incubate and carry and spread secondary deadly infectous disease that normal people don’t.

There are additional arguments as well. Suffice it to say that when it comes to disease control, civillians are not entitled to an opinion. You follow medical advice or suffer the consequences. That’s why we have Public Health Officers with powers beyond that of even the judiciary. And the Health Officer doesn’t have to explain it to you either.

In CA it’s a crime to violate written orders of Health Officers re:disease control and people are jailed very fast on that. They can conscript people for service, quarrantine individuals or towns, and seize any materials they require - such as take the inventory of an entire pharmacy or drugstore - when they declare an emergency.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Jeff, we don’t care about your hemorrhoids or your gall stones. However, if your blood, saliva, or breath etc. can transmit a potentially lethal disease to myself or my family, I do care.

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

SET:

The Founding Fathers were WARY of any group of people having that level of power, and so should we be. To the point that they specifically created a “BALANCE of power” in the government of their new country.

I find it hilariously funny: When it comes to murder (abortion), the “its my body and you have no say” (medical privacy) is the common argument in favor. Yet when it comes to genuine privacy issues - such as being discussed here - the very same people come out saying “Well, wait a second, you don’t have a right to medical privacy after all.”

By mmm

October 26, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

I want to know, and given the frequency with which head lice alerts have come home in the Friday memo’s, I do have some reasonable confidence that the needed info about the other stuff will happen. But then, the school nurse is also the receptionist—and it is a charter school that cares about the kids, rather than just being CYA.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

When anyone (adult, student, etc.) finds out they they have this staph infection, the doctor will most certainly isolate them from the population until it is safe. In addition, the doctors would try to find the origin of the infection to kill the residual germs. Also, the doctors would determine if others may have been exposed and act accordingly.

This being said, I don’t know what part the school should take. If the school simply announces that “someone” got it, this would only serve to cause panic and unnecessary reaction. For all the school knows, that “someone” might have gotten it in a movie theater or elsewhere.

The reality of the situation is this… If a student is absent, their friends usually know why. And, it is their friends that would be most likely exposed to that staph infection and therefore should take proper actions. Why bring an entire school population into it?

I agree that individual privacy should play a role in this decision.

Regarding this staph infection… each one of us should take logical precautions. Avoid places where viruses live (community hot tubs, etc.), don’t touch other peoples sores, wash hands frequently, etc. You can do a lot to avoid catching this and it is your individual responsibility to do so (and also to teach your children).

It is not the responsibility of schools to be in charge of your health.

By mmm

October 26, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

BTW There were two cases of kids with repeated low fevers that persisted and have resisted the typical antibiotics recently. When I called in to say that my son had a fever two weeks ago and I would keep him home—-since it is the nurse that also takes those calls—she told me about the other cases she knew of, and we discussed the symtoms to watch out for. It turns out my son rides to the same bus stop with one of them. I am absolutely certain that that Mother wouldn’t mind my knowing—and would, in fact, welcome a “how are you doing” call.

By DawgPile

October 26, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

mmm -

That type of communication is expected and welcome. The communication was private between a health care provider and you.

But imagine if the Principal had to announce to the school over the intercom that your son is sick. Would you really want that?

By SET

October 26, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Abortion and birth control for 11 year olds is a great topic I’d love to get to sometime.

A law degree is a history degree. If you want to debate the founding fathers and the constitution - I can do that. Most people nowadays would be shocked, shocked! about history not being at all what is being taught in the public nuthouses.

You are wishing in the palm of your hand if you try to argue away Public Health powers by appealing to the constitution or the founding fathers. The PHS powers are firmly rooted in US and world history. What we have here, and your position is not unheard of in this brave new world, is an exagerated opinion of where you and the individual fit in the scheme of society and the world.

I tend to be liberitarian but I have to work with the legal system and the society that we are all stuck with. Any claim that Public Health Officers don’t have the powers they have, is - eccentric.

The danger we face as a society that based it’s economy and it’s population in cities is that the current crop of female social worker type Public Health Officers will not act in time to prevent an Infectous Disease disaster from becoming a catastrophe. Some of the CA PH Officers are RN’s not Drs (not many). As a rule they are never trauma surgeons or MASH unit experience battlefield medics.

I am more than familiar with Bird Flu disaster planning. I don’t believe for a minute that if things hit the fan the PH Service will contain or manage the problem. They will lose control of everything because they have no intention of using force - they have never in their lives used force of the kind contemplated and they have no emotional preparation for the scenarios they are told to prepare for.

Again, I was in Orange County during the Rodney King Riots and I saw how the government decided to allow the mob to attack people at will. Katrina utterly reinforced my low opinion of US federal, state and local willingness to use force to protect people or property.

Back on point to the school thing. My prediction is that on hell of a lot of people will have to be hurt before the Educrats will do a (substantial) thing. Only the local public health officer stands between the disease and the staff and students of the public schools and PHS tends to want to be liked and loved so they won’t do anything drastic should that be needed.

Brave New World

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

SET

Your tangential rantings and ravings from a CA perspective has again gotten out of control.

Brave New World

By Public Health Nurse

October 26, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

The statement made by “JustMe” at the end of his post warrants a response. To some extent, especially in the situation of MRSA, there is some school responsibility here. Those kids who are playing contact sports are at greatest risk in the school settings of acquiring this type of infection. This is why there are rules for skin inspection in place (even in the NCAA)!! The schools need to reassure parents who have children involved in these activities that they are maintaining the required infection control standards in regularly disinfecting equipment such as wrestling mats (do your research - MRSA has been spread this way), football pads and helmets, etc. Been in a high school athletic locker room lately? What you see might surprise you. And it is a known fact by those of us who deal with public health issues regularly that getting educational messages out to parents who do not follow the news media outlets is very difficult - schools are often our biggest resource in helping to inform parents of risk and how to protect their families. So, while I agree that protection of privacy is a must, schools can still protect privacy while offering general education and reassurance to students and their families.

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

PHN:

Even I am all for a blanket acknowledgement “someone in this school has __”.

Where I am against is in forcing a person to reveal their medical information and/ or naming names (or giving such information that the person in question can be easily identified). Again, with the exception of known aggressive students.

Note that even in my allowable example, I still feel it should not specify the person in question’s role in the school. Simply a generic “someone”, rather than even a generic “student” or “faculty member” or “staff”.

Also, in my allowable example, it is only for those things which may be reasonably spread at school, such as an air-borne pathogen or your athletic material example. Note that in the case of athletic materials, I feel that only those students and parents that actually use the equipment that may have been exposed to the specific pathogen should be informed. (Such as if it is a wrestling mat, only the students on the wrestling team or those who may have used the wrestling mat in PE class should be informed.)

By Stacey

October 26, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

As a parent, I want some kind of notification when there is something contagious going around in the school (especially when it’s potentially deadly). No, I don’t expect it to say “John Brown in Mrs. Smith’s homeroom has been diagnosed with_”. Even if the infected student is on the wrestling team and my son isn’t, I still want to know what it is and what to look out for. If a disease can be passed along from a wrestling mat, can it also be transmitted from desk top? I know a lot of you think that’s a dumb question, but I often hear about new/worse strains of diseases. While I’m not in a panic, I don’t deny being concerned and I examine my son just that much more closely now.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I’m trying to figure out your thought processes here.

In one paragraph, you state that a “generic someone” rather than a “generic student, faculty member or staff.”

Then you say it would be okay to notify just the “wrestling team”.

You’re one step away from naming the student.

Let me tell you, as a parent, if your kid is on the wrestling team, you would want to know and I would argue that you have the RIGHT to know.

By Bentley

October 26, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

All,

Honestly, it is not the privacy of one that should matter here. For the benefit of all concerned, students and teachers, everyone should be made aware if there is a communicable disease in their school and if they have been exposed.

Jeff - get over the privacy issue. There are children and teachers involved here and they have RIGHTS also.

As far as only notifying the students who have been exposed, how do you rule out where the exposure ends? Tommy plays football with Joe and Joe has a staff infection, so Tommy is exposed. Well Tommy goes out with Sally and they are together everyday after football practice. Sally is now exposed. Sally is a cheerleader and she hangs out with 15 other cheerleaders practicing in a hot sweaty gym everyday, now Sally and all of the cheerleaders are exposed. Each teacher and coach of these students are also exposed. The families of each of these students are exposed. I think you get my drift. You have to notify anyone and everyone who might have came in contact. What if the equipment is not cleaned thoroughly and is used by 7 classes the next day - you might have 30 kids in each class - that’s 210 potential cases of staff. The only way to stop the spread is to educate everyone around.

I am so tired of hearing about privacy rights. If you aren’t doing anything you should be ashamed of, then you shouldn’t fear what is known about you. I agree, there are some things (such as personal financial information) that should not be shared, but my God, if I had measles, aids, staff, etc. and I exposed anyone to my infection, I would feel morally obligated to let them know. Heaven forbid that they died because I was too prideful, selfish and egotistical to alert them because I have PRIVACY RIGHTS.

By DB

October 26, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff: After 15 years of receiving notices from school regarding this and that, I can confidently say that I have NEVER received a notice that compromised the privacy of any person. Most are exactly as you describe: “We have had a reported case of chicken pox in the Elementary School population” etc.

Now, of course, it’s a small community, and we all figure it out pretty quickly. Usually, the parent themselves will tell their friends, so that everyone can be on the lookout for symptoms. But it didn’t come from the administration.

I daresay some smart lawyer could make a case for reckless endangerment if it could be proved that a school knew that its population had been exposed to a potentially lethal pathogen and had done NOTHING to notify the families or to curb the spread.

By Stacey

October 26, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Bentley…I agree. As someone else pointed out, your gall stones are private but your TB, MRSA, Chickpox, etc. shouldn’t be if it has the potential to infect others.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

PHN -

While the school does have a responsbility for keeping stuff clean, IMHO, they do not have a responsibility for spreading news about who is sick with what. And, of course schools should keep all equipment clean.

However, schools cannot and should ever create a false sense of security that they can make everything absolutely safe and absolutely healthy. As an individual, you can do a better job of that than any school or organization by washing hands, etc. That is what I meant when I said that schools are not responsible for your health, you are.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

This just in — “NEW YORK (Oct. 26) - School officials urged parents to report any signs of antibiotic-resistant staph infections after middle-school student Omar Rivera apparently died of the “superbug.”

We’re not dealing with simple colds or bugs that can be eradicated with medicated shampoo. We’re talking about stuff that can kill.

Jeff, your “Give me Liberty or give me Death” chant might mean a little more if you say it at the point of a bayonet. Otherwise, it will be interesting to see the change in your attitude if were are all still blogging here in a few years and you have a couple of kids at risk.

By bec mattix

October 26, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Try to find out if your schools are cleaning the bathrooms and lockers rooms with bleach and water. Only that will kill this staph.

By Public health employee

October 26, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

While I am not a nurse, I work in a public health setting and am bound, as all helath workers are, by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, which has a strict privacy requirement for all individual identifying information (“protected health information” or “PHI”). You will not hear the name of a specific infected student from the school staff because that information is protected by law. Relax, Jeff, you’re getting yourself worked up again. When you start backpedaling like you’re doing, it’s time to take a chill pill.

By Erin

October 26, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

“Try to find out if your schools are cleaning the bathrooms and lockers rooms with bleach and water. Only that will kill this staph.”

But they’d also have to wash down every surface, including every single chair, desk, table, locker, floor, etc.

Every single surface that a student who was exposed to MRSA would have to be cleaned … just doing certain places won’t get rid of it all.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

Stacey and others,

A common cold is contagious. Should a school send out a notice to all parents about that?

Where does the school’s responsibility start and stop. Who decides? Who says which contagious illness is worthy of a notice from the school? A cold can kill, also.

IMHO, the responsiblity of the school is to educate - teach the content. That is enough for a good school to do well. The more of this other stuff we require of schools will only dilute the education goals. And, IMHO, that is the main reason why we see education standards declining in the US - because we expect schools to be everything to everyone and this diverts attention from it’s one true goal.

If a sickness is of concern, get the medical community involved. Most every City has a CDC office. Let the medical community make the contacts, release public statements, issue warnings, etc…… not the schools.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

JustMe, if a school’s administration cannot figure out the difference between a common cold and a life threatening pathogen, then you are absolutely correct — the school has no business doing a damn thing other than trying to teach 8th graders 2+2=6.

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Lee:

If my sports case, the notification would be along the lines of “The wrestling room was potentially contaminated with _.”

As far as your “at the end of a bayonet” speech: Been there. Done that. Kept my mouth shut. (In the case I experienced, I was being pressured to reveal information about another person. However, I would be even more stringent if the information were about myself or my family.)

Two cases to consider here: 1) How many pictures of Tim McGraw and Faith Hill’s kids have you ever seen? They are INCREDIBLY sensitive about their kids not being in the limelight, and will practically draw a gun on any photographer who even THINKS about snapping a pic of their kids. I hold the same level of privacy as far as officials go. If I volunteer it to people, fine. (As I have obviously done with many details of my life on the blogs here.) For an official to tell everyone against my will (such as if certain individuals came forth with certain records pertaining to when I was a K-12 student in North GA schools), they have crossed the privacy boundary. Furthermore, for an official (such as a judge) to demand information regarding areas of my life I consider strictly off the public record (many of the DETAILS surrounding the aforementioned time period), I will - and have - flat out told them that such details are none of their business.

The second point to consider: Watch The Contender with Joan Allen. In that movie, an issue comes up that it would be EXTREMELY beneficial to her character to simply publicly address - either direction, confirm or deny. Instead, throughout the entire movie, she never once addresses it publicly, and only once - at the end of the movie - privately.

By PatC

October 26, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Universal precaution should be used by all.. schools and work environments should be cleaned on a regular basis and folks should utilize common sense.. wash your hands!

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

After a great deal of thought on this one, I guess I’ll have to agree with Jeff and JM.

Indeed it’s not the schools job so we should all go about our business and send sick and contagious kids to school so the schools can continue to make AYP.

Who knows, if it were to become bad enough it might even take out a few of the bottom feeders we have teaching in the schools. You know—like the ones that molest children.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Lee,

I can just about here the outcry by a few here if a sick child came to school and infected a teacher and the teacher were to die.

We’d be hearing all about “your liberties end where mine begin.”

Know what I mean?

By Lee

October 26, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Good grief,

Comparing two country and western singers not wanting pictures taken of their kids to whether or not schools have a responsibility to inform parents of life threatening diseases??

I’m sorry that I haven’t risen to your obviously higher level of intellect, but I don’t see the connection.

SET said it best in an earlier post. Schools will keep denying culpability and responsibility for these things until one day, you have an entire school or system wiped out.

……And we still won’t see a picture of Faith Hill’s kids.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

EOCT Time!!!

1: The responsibility for public health belongs to

(Please circle one)

a) the school systems

b) the public health departments

c) the dumb a$$ parents

d) all of the above

I believe even our kids could guess the correct answer to that one!

By Lee

October 26, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Jim D, yeah, it’s sorta ironic that schools want to control just about every aspect of a student’s life…..until it really is about a student’s life.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

Well put Lee!

By catlady

October 26, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Two comments: the Universal Precautions are just fine IF the child follows it also; ie, does not vomit on you, does not stand at your side dripping blood from a nosebleed, the sp ed kid with hepititus does not bite you, etc. The problem is, kids don’t just vomit in the trash, or bleed only on cue when you have on latex gloves. So I think I should know if a specific kid has a serious disease. Any idiot can see a kid has a cold. We are talking about more serious stuff here. As it is, I never know so I cannot adequately protect me or my students.

I have had to be hospitalized twice, at a cost of thousands of dollars plus missed work, from catching an illness from a child who was sent sick to school for the parents’ convenience. I have also be infested with lice by children who are sent to school infested, hugging on me or leaning over my desk. It is not at all pleasant. I haven’t yet (knock, knock) gotten scabies (the itch) from a kid. Teachers are exposed every day to quite a few illnesses that crop up, without children being sent to school already sick.

It would be nice if common sense was common, and if consideration of others was expected. However, at this point it is me, me, me.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

Cat, I say give credit where credit is due.

So leave us not forget to thank Dubya for NCLB which punishes schools where children get sick and stay home.

By Janine

October 26, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

I am of the opinion that parentsand students should be notified about the presence of a serious communicable disease in the school..Not who has it, but that it is there. RE JustMe@3:09 ” And, of course schools should keep all equipment,etc. clean…& As an individual, you can do a better job of that than any school or organization by washing hands,”

Totally agree. However, if a student is to protect him/herself there is a need to be warned/reminded that the desk he/she sits in in the next class is a potential hazard. And yes, I know that’s always the case….esp. with colds and flu, but the warnings and reminders take on an exceptional importance with serious and potentially deadly germs. If the infected person is not named, I see no conflict with Privacy rights.

By Stacey

October 26, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

JustMe…Common Cold and even Influenza are things that any logical person would expect their kids to be exposed to. Drug resistant bacteria, virus, infections, etc are not in the same ballpark. That’s just my opinion…you are certainly entitled to disagree. I’m not saying that the school is responsible for notifying the public of all health threats, but I do want to know when my child had likely been exposed to a deadly, contagious disease. For the record, I would also like to know the same of my coworkers. My opinion, no more, no less.

By Janine

October 26, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t a desk infected with one of these very contagious and potentially life threatening germs be just as dangerous as infected sports equipment?

By Janine

October 26, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

I am kind of hung up on the importance of notification placed on the “athlete/gym ” thing. Doesn’t that same athlete sit in the desks in the classrooms and possibly cough, sneeze, drool [while napping,of course]?

By jim d

October 26, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

janine,

More so.

By Janine

October 26, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Bridget! In case my answer to your original question was not clear…ABSOLUTELY! Parents AND students should be notified and there SHOULD be a definite procedure [Systemwide and/or Statewide} for doing so with all deliberate speed. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Privacy rights. No names required.

By HB

October 26, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

Janine, my understanding is that this superbug is carried on the skin and most likely to be spread by sweaty bodies sharing the same machines, soap bars, etc (apparently worse than drooling on a desk). That’s why more cases have popped up among school athletes and outside of school in private gyms (Dateline or one of those shows did a story last year on superbug dangers in swanky gyms where they swabbed a bunch of exercise bikes to show how they were dirtier than your average toilet), so wiping down equipment and using liquid soap are being pushed as good prevention habits.

Certainly classrooms should be a concern too and I’m all for good cleaning of all areas, but fewer cases seem to originate there, probably because kids are less likely to be sweaty and have often less skin exposed to spread or pick up the germ. So yes, a contaminated desk is dangerous, but a desk is less likely to be contaminated to begin with than sports equipment. Athletes may also be more susceptible because they often have open cuts and scrapes after a game. They hit the showers, use a MSRA tainted bar of soap to wash off a scraped knee, and bingo — really nasty infection.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

I think that it is too funny that the very posters on this blog that complain about school’s taking away the individuality, the “constitutional rights”, and so on, of students are now advocating that schools take action to also control health issues for the students.

Can’t have it both ways. Well, I guess you can - it is called being a hypocrite.

Stacey - That is exactly my point. Today, drug resistant viruses are becoming more and more common. Soon, they will likely be more common than the “common cold.” There is really nothing to do about it except to try and reduce exposure. That does NOT mean that the problem is a school problem. It is a medical problem. Each person individually must do whatever they can to reduce exposure. Organizations (schools, churches, etc.) can wipe things down, spray things, etc., but it is ultimately an individual responsibility.

Question: If we find that some of the kids that have contracted this in the Atlanta area got it in movie theaters, would everyone yell that this is a movie theater problem? Should the movie theater be responsible for notifing all movie goers if one person that was there a week ago contracted this?

The answer is NO! The CDC would be involved and tract down those people. The CDC would provide the legal privacy required and see if others were infected.

So then, why is it that just because some kids may have contracted it in a school there is a different answer? Shouldn’t the medical community still be in charge? You people that seem to hate public school administrators really want them to be in charge?

I cannot get past the hypocrisy of you all.

By catlady

October 26, 2007 6:48 PM | Link to this

Here is a corundum: As a teacher, I am notified if a child has diabetes, hemophilia, seizures, or severe allergies—serious, life-threatening conditions FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL CHILD—yet I am not told if a student is under treatment for TB, which has a larger layer of implications for fellow students and me. Why?

At our school, such notifications as are made are made to the school at large “Parents, be aware that we are seeing increased incidents of lice. Signs to watch for include….Procedures for handling lice include…..”

By SET

October 26, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

JustMe: I saw your out of control comment. It has been a rather difficult week over here. Sometimes I do enjoy the rant too much. Or maybe I’m trying to bait an exchange on a point that looks like fun, to delay making a decision here.

Darn, nobody took me up on the women as enforcers point…

Odd thing - I am seeing and hearing about people at the courthouse who have had surgery to treat skin staph infections. One of them is a lawyer I see all the time who almost died earlier this month. The infection started in the back of the neck, they don’t know the source. He was away at a beach and upon return what they thought was an insect bite turned into a life and death struggle. His Dr hospitalized himn right away, he was put on IV antibiotics, then they operated. He is wearing bandges around his neck and is apparently disfigured underneath. The other person is a local barber I haven’t met. No connection between the two.

Have a nice weekend…

By Pam

October 26, 2007 7:53 PM | Link to this

IS THIS REALLY A PRIVACY ISSUE? Why not:
1) Provide a notification to all classmates and teachers of the affected student of possible exposure - including the contagious student. No one would need to know who that individual was. 2) Would this advise students who came in contact with this potentially contagious student? No. However, would “most” be better than “nothing”? Hopefully the parents of of that potentially infectious student would be responsible enough to notify those friends personally.

There is no perfection in this world, yet we also strive to find a “perfect” solution. Maybe there is one out there. However, in the interim, do what is right for the majority and do what you would want to have done for you.

By Lee

October 26, 2007 7:55 PM | Link to this

JustMe, the difference between a school and a movie theater is that attendance to a movie is purely voluntary. If my child goes to a movie, the theater owner has no authority over my child other than to kick them out of his establishment if the need arises.

Schools, on the other hand, do have authority over it’s students. For most parents, attendance in a public school is not optional, it is mandated by law and if their kids do not attend, a guy with a badge and a gun will show up at the front door.

Schools then take these students and cram them into crowded classrooms and trailers, which are essentially incubators for every kind of pathogen imaginable.

As a result, the schools DO have a responsibility to limit exposure of communicable and contagious infectious diseases of the student population. This responsibility includes notification at the proper level. For select few diseases, I think proper notification includes naming names.

For a teacher to say otherwise is disingenious.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 8:28 PM | Link to this

Lee, So then, you are an advocate for schools to take more and more ‘control’ over kids lives? And, this includes their health?

First, how can a school know if a kid has ANYTHING unless the parent or kid tells them? Their doctor would know, of course.

So, are you suggesting that doctors should be required to notify schools, who then notify other kids/parents? How stupid is that?

Schools should always keep things clean. That is the end of their responsibility.

Doctors, the CDC, and the medical community should handle health issues. This includes notifying the public, as needed, and also isolating patients, if needed. Don’t put schools in the middle of it!

Principals are not health experts and should not be expected to act as such. Heck, most of them cannot handle their own job!

By SET

October 26, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this

Lee; I agree with you that the schools have a fiduciary duty to the students beyond that of a typical premises operator. The schools have been traditionally thought of as in loco parentis - in place of parents. I believe that should still be the standard. And I think it should remain so because so many of the Public School kids have no parent(s) or unfit parent(s).

The public schools domesticated the early 20th century immigrants to the USA where their parents could not. It was the schools that taught them US tradition, mores and standards as well as English. It was the public schools that made it possible for the children of immigrants to rise in US society. We are running that machine in reverse. The products of our urban public schools are created not to belong in US society and to be stuck in the proletariat underclass. Even in the 70’s an employer of mine told me they only hired Blacks from the Catholic schools, not from Oakland Unified. I think things are worse now.

I want to see a return to the previous performance levels we had regardless of race. So I do believe the school is responsible for the health and safety of the kids as if the Educrats were parents on duty. That is an anethma to the educrats. They will use every silly argument to avoid the responsibility to have physical safety at school, clean bathrooms, or the kids learning proper english or deportment.

I believe the large urban schools should have a School Nurse like they used to. I believe the public health service should be all over outbreaks actual or threatened and that includes forced testing and innoculations at the schools. I have a terminal problem with HIV & HPV spreading through the black teen population while the Health Officers smile and say they won’t scare or offend anyone. I have another problem with Mexican/South American invader children not knowing their TB (skin test) status and not getting the education they need to deal with the various diseases that is endemic in Mexico.

As far as the Staph infection situation - it is a killer is you get hit with it. Poor school kids don’t get to a Doctor - the emergency room is their Dr. If this new danger reaches the frequency of, say teen drunk driving deaths (pretty high here) the schools should have in service training for the staff and students and implement whatever sanitation measures are Medically imposed for the duration - Up to and including canceling wrestling/football/swimming season.

By SET

October 26, 2007 8:51 PM | Link to this

Just Me: I do agree with you that the County Public Health Dept is primarily responsible for setting terms for IDC. Our Education code specifies what school kids require re: innoculations to be let into school. Not only should that be enforced but sick (includes dental carries and mentally ill) kids are supposed to be barred from class until medical clearance and treatment. It seems that the schools addiction to the ADA money, as you would expect, often results in ignoring health standards.

Staff can really only look for what they can be taught to recognize as trouble. Public Health has to tell the school what they want to be alerted to, and PHS can inspect the place and sample the bathrooms, etc.

Schools are not hospitals. And teachers aren’t nurses. They won’t know the kid has hidden medical conditions if no one tells and screening won’t unearth the condition.

But if they ever do learn of a problem they aren’t free to ignore the issue - they have to do the right thing and the safety of the staff and students is as important or more important than the interests of an individual student.

What do you do with a HIV Positive student? A good subject for another blog!! A public school teacher relative has had in her class HIV + crack baby retarded students (more than one!) in diapers in grade school special ed. The teacher was told, but I doubt the other student’s families were ever told a thing.

By Jim D

October 26, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this

JM,

To borrow a phrase from “another blogger” from a past blog.

You stupid idiot

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

JD - I’m still waiting for you to clarify your position from the previous blog….

By Lee

October 26, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

Oh JustMe, where to begin….

“So then, you are an advocate for schools to take more and more ‘control’ over kids lives? And, this includes their health?”

The gist of this blog is about the proper level of disclosure to parents in the event a student contracts a infectious disease which has the potential to spread to other students.

“First, how can a school know if a kid has ANYTHING unless the parent or kid tells them? Their doctor would know, of course.”

I don’t know — the puking in the trash can and 105 degree temperature might be a clue.

“So, are you suggesting that doctors should be required to notify schools, who then notify other kids/parents? How stupid is that?’

You’re right, of course. The schools should do nothing until a couple of students die.

“Schools should always keep things clean. That is the end of their responsibility.”

Keep the school clean, yes. End of their responsibility, hardly.

“Doctors, the CDC, and the medical community should handle health issues. This includes notifying the public, as needed, and also isolating patients, if needed. Don’t put schools in the middle of it!”

Like it or not, schools are in the middle of it. The close proximity and interaction between the students is a key factor in the spread of infectious diseases.

“Principals are not health experts and should not be expected to act as such. Heck, most of them cannot handle their own job!”

No one is asking them to diagnose patients. We’re asking them to place the health and welfare of the student body, staff, and teachers above political correctness and worrying about hurting someone’s “feelings.” Their jobs include the dissimination of information to the school, that includes health related issues. If they can’t do their job, that is another matter.

By high school teacher

October 27, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

So, are you suggesting that doctors should be required to notify schools, who then notify other kids/parents? How stupid is that?

When my brother was in middle school, my parents got a phone call at 11:30 pm one night. A classmate of his was diagnosed with bacterial meningitis. My parents were instructed to take my brother to the health center immediately so that he could receive medication. When they got there, they saw all of my brother’s cassmates, also awaiting the vaccination.

I was in college at the time, and because I had been home the previous weekend, I had to come home again so that I could receive medication. The whole town received the vaccination for meningitis.

Guess who made the phone call to my parents? My brother’s teacher.

Sometimes, privacy is not the most important issue.

By SET

October 27, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

JustMe: You are clearly on the losing side of the debate about schools being directly involved and directly responsible for warnings about ID. As the above post reminded us in the case of Meningitis, schools on occasion are the vector for transmission of rapidly spreading, fatal outbreaks like that one or Multi-Drug Resistant TB, or Staph Infections. I could throw in HIV as another. Once the school knows that the bug has landed and is spreading it must warn the families with kids in the school. And in some cases they must tell who has fallen ill in order to ensure that persons exposed to that victim watch for and react quickly to symptoms while there is still time to save themselves. Meningitis is the best example. The school does not have to be told by PHS about this duty to warn. This is the same fiduciary duty - duty of loyalty - that is involved when the schools are accused of not warning of a shooter on campus.

Frankly a babysitter has the same duty of care. And the schools are professional bebysitters so to speak.

No amount of liberal nonsense about privacy rights can change this. Any privacy rights are secondary to life and limb.

Of course the PHS must react when the find out Meningitis is occurring on the wrestling team or whatever but the school has an independent duty that cannot be delegated. Moreover the teachers have a personal duty which cannot be countermanded by any school administrator. You are not free to fail to warn or protect a student in your class from deadly peril by claiming that the principal told you not to. That just gets you in the dock alongside the principal.

By Tony

October 27, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

A theme that disturbs me about many of the posts on this topic is that people want someone else to be responsible for their own health and safety. Good hygiene practices are the best defense against most of the communicable diseases discussed. Staph is a very common bacterium lurking about EVERYWHERE! Washing with soap and water, keeping things clean, and other good practices will severely curtail the spread of the bacteria. Teach your children to wash their hands frequently, not to share personal effects, eat or drink after others, and clean your athletic equipment. This will prevent the spread of the germs.

By Gross!~

October 27, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

When I taught for Atlanta Public Schools, my student had a ringworm spot on him (not under clothes) w/ a 2” diameter! No response from school nurse - a social worker finally responded. The nurse told me not to tell. Oh, the Lysol I went through(Does that even help?? It made me feel like I was helping.) The school could have cared less.

By Rita

October 27, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

I taught for many years with a teacher who has a suppressed immune system due to a kidney transplant. I am sure that there are quite a few children who may also have a suppressed immune system. If these people “pick up a bug, virus, or bacteria” it is much more serious. Personal safety should be the top priority.

By JustMe

October 27, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Lee and others…

You guys talk in circles.

First, you say that (and I now quote Lee) “I don’t know — the puking in the trash can and 105 degree temperature might be a clue.” So, are you suggesting that anytime any student has a fever and/or pukes that the Principal should notify all parents? Are you serious? Simple food poisoning can cause those symptoms. The Principal may as well send out an automated voice message every day to every parent!

Then, you say (and I quote SET here), “Once the school knows that the bug has landed and is spreading it must warn the families with kids in the school.” Well, that brings me to my previous question that YOU didn’t really answer. How is the school going to know? Many of the illnesses that you mention have no obvious symptoms. And, some of their symptoms are like common things, like colds. So then, how can you hold schools accountable for something that they didn’t know? And, if your answer is “once they know”, then aren’t you really just encouraging school officials to be active in their ignorance (if they never know, they won’t have to do anything)? And how can you expect schools to know? You think Principals can read minds? The first to know is the medical community, NOT THE SCHOOL.

As I have said REQUIRING SCHOOLS TO DO THE WORK OF THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY IS ASKING FOR TROUBLE. If an individual teacher or an individual Principal takes on the responsibility of notification, then that is on them (and they risk the law suit personally). But we should NOT expect for schools to be all things to all people all of the time.

Trust me, as a teacher I am 100% certain that some of the kids that go through my classroom have all types of illnesses: HIV, colds, pneumonia, influenza, etc. As individuals, we have to protect ourselves by practicing good hygiene and good life practices. Expecting others to take care of us is wrong, espcially if they are not the experts.

I regularly spray Lysol around the room and also wipe down surfaces with antiseptic. This is for my protection as well as my students.

If you place your health, or the health of your child, in the hands of your employer. or your child’s school, you will be sorely disappointed.

That is all I have to say on this subject. I am certain that there will always be people that want schools to do everything (then they are shocked to see their property tax bill).

By SET

October 27, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this

tony: While you have a point about self responsibility and hand washing your are missing the point here. Q school is a notorious vector for infectous disease. So notorious, that schools are normally closed at once during an outbreak (1918 killer flu epidemic, etc.).

The operators of a “school”, public or private, have a duty of loyalty to the students (and staff I contend) to warn and physically protect from direct threats to life and limb. That is not negotiable or delegatable. Certain infectous diseases are so deadly, so fast and so forseeable that whenever the school and it’s staff have knowledge of their presence they must give warning fast enough and specific enough for the students (& staff) to save themselves.

It is an absurd thought that general admonitions of handwashing are talked about when a teacher or principal gets info at 12 noon that, for example, a member of the wrestling team has been Dx’ed with Infectous Meningitis.

At 12:05 you would phone every single parent of the team members, telling them who was Dx’ed with what and that their child has to get to the ER at the first sign of symptoms. Also a warning to the entire school’s parents would usually be done by TV and radio - you name the patient - anybody in contact is at risk. I have seen these broadcasts here, for Meningitis.

You do these things because you have to - it’s the only way to uphold your duty to the students.

By Tony

October 27, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this

SET, I am quite familiar with protocols for the extreme cases of infectious diseases. The majority of conversations in this topic have been about staph - a very common bacteria.

One of the exceptions to notifications of parents is if there is a child infected with HIV. There is no notification to the school community. NONE.

Twenty years ago, my grandmother nearly died of bacterial meningitis. We were told that hand washing, no exchange of body fluids, and cleaning the house from top to bottom were the most important things to do. Yes, we provided a list of recent contacts my grandmother had and they were notified.

Arguing the legal points can be important, but the scientific information is just as important to prevent the spread of infection.

By SET

October 27, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this

Line two above has a typo, should read “Public Schools are notorious vectors for infectuous disease.* Sorry!

By Tony

October 27, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

JustMe, spraying Lysol can be effective in killing bacteria and certain viruses. Make sure you spray the surfaces and materials. Spraying into the air is not effective. Principals and teachers can not be held liable when notifying parents of in important illness. As long as procedures are followed according to law and policy, they are acting in an official capacity.

By college parent

October 28, 2007 6:30 AM | Link to this

Colleges won’t tell parents their children’s grades, but will about health on campus? What about privacy? What concern is it to the parents????? (Irony?)

By Debbie Shilobod

October 28, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

In the state of Pennsylvania, there is not a law requiring notification of healthcare facilities or public schools to report staph infections in particular. However, there are rules governing healthcare institiutions to report the “infection rate”. I am a RN practicing in PA. I have also started my own nurse consulting business in response to the desperate need for “correct infectious disease control information” in our communities. I agree public & private schools & colleges are not responsible for educating students and parents about infectious diseases, such as staph infections and MRSA. Because our own healthcare systems are not responding to the communities needs, I am trying to hold seminars for our community members and schools that teach about staph infections, MRSA, hand hygiene, good personal hygiene, about MRSA risk factors, diagnosis, treatment options,& prevention measures. I have also found an extremely good antimicrobial shield product that is cost-effective, EPA approved and can be used on towels, athletic equipment/gear, locker rooms, gym mats & even artificial turf. But, I have found that schools are trying to handle MRSA information via their school nurses, who are overwhelmed. In addition, school nurses & parents are finding it difficult to get the schools to provide the proper equipment,i.e. alcohol rub hand dispensers and proper disinfectants to clean athletic facilities, since money usually is not budgeted for these items. Parents are going to have to start providing their children with alcohol based hand rubs and teach proper hygiene. This goes for adults, too. There is alot of public education needed. There are products out there that can help PREVENT MRSA. Please visit my website for more information about free seminars and antimicrobial products. www.premierhealthcareconsulting.net or email me at infectioncontrol@premierhealthcareconsulting.net There is alot of work to be done to educate. MRSA is very preventable. Thank you.

By catlady

October 28, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

OSHA requires that workers be notified if there is, say, asbestos in the building (altho we are told it is safe and no cause for concern). OSHA requires that workers be aware of other dangerous situations, and that the employer take steps to safeguard the workers. Why are our schools any different?

By susan-a teacher

October 28, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

I would like to comment on the privacy rights issues about infections such as staff. My son goes to a private school where four students have contracted staph. I work in a poor school which has no hot water and no soap. Teachers ask parents at the beginning of the year for donations of soap. Also there is no hot running water anywhere but in the school cafeteria. You can’t clean hands very well that way although we do encourage washing with soap and cold water because it’s better than nothing. I buy my own antibacterial sprays for my classroom and daily spray my desks and chairs between classes. I provide this because my school won’t. I do this to make my children aware of how important it is that we recognize germs can make us very sick. Plus I’m concerned for my safety as well as theirs. If children in a decent private school can get staph, think what is running around my school undetected. Two of our teachers contracted staph over the last three years. They continued to work with staph, however, because they had to. The administration was informed, but the day to day operations of operating the school went on as usual with no notification to anyone.Personally, I value my health and that of my students and with what’s coming from some of homes my children live in, we are all at risk. Unfortunately, I do love what I do and will stay doing what I’m doing. Plus, I need a paycheck!! I’m not so sure that these privacy regulations should apply to communicable diseases when it effects the health of a whole group of people. Something surely could be compromised on here.

By catlady

October 28, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

I love the comments about spraying with Lysol; valid and true I am sure. However, what about times when hand sanitizers, Lysol spray, etc. won’t do any good? Like the kid sitting next to me coughing (not covering) day after day. I happen by the nurse’s office, and see him taking medicine. What’s up, I say. The child says, “I am taking my TB medicine!”

The kid with Hepititis having the “nerve” to run up to my desk, nose pouring, with a nosebleed. It is on my hands, in my lap, before I can pull out the gloves. Lysol isn’t gonna help me much ex post facto. The mentally retarded kid, also with hep, who gets angry and spits or bites me or his classmates: Hand sanitizer may not help much on that, either.

Parents, your kids are not given masks or rubber gloves. They wouldn’t have sanitizer or tissues or spray unless I buy them, either. Is this what you want? And I am sorry to say, the risk is amplified with children who are here from other countries who have not had the benefits of clean water and other things we take for granted.

I come out in favor of complete disclosure on an as-needed basis. And if I am working with the child, or sharing a room with someone working with the child, I have a need to know. ‘course, this makes the school liable, doesn’t it?

By Lee

October 28, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this

JustMe, read Catlady’s posts above — child sitting in nurses office taking TB medication.

The school knew this kid had TB and still stuck him in the general population to potentially infect every student he came in contact with.

The school did not even think enough of the teacher to notify her.

Back in the 50’s, when common sense still ruled, a student who was diagnosed with TB would be quaranteened in a hospital ward.

Here is the state of public schools today — a kid can draw a picture of a gun and get suspended. That same kid can be infected with AIDS, Hepatitis, tuberculosis, and a host of other pathogens, and the schools will do nothing.

Makes that $15k I pay for private school tuition seem like a bargain. At least there, all students have to have their shots up to date before they are allowed in the door. Public schools cannot even do that right.

One of these days, one of these “superbugs” is going to go through a school and kill a good number of students. Maybe the parents will take comfort when the principal comes up to them after their kids funeral and says “We knew about this weeks ago, but it wasn’t our job to tell anyone.”

By JustMe

October 28, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

To clarify my position further (sorry for not including this point earlier)….

I have no problem with notifying parents. In fact, the entire community needs to be notified, and not just parents with kids in schools.

I have a problem with WHO does the notification. The notification should come from medical professionals and not from school officials.

The medical professionals need to determine what the medical problem is (diagnoses), if it is a danger to the community, how it is contracted, how to contain it, and when/how/who to notify. I really just cannot believe that so many here want to leave those decisions up to people (school administrators) that have no training in medicine whatsoever.

Lee - Do you think that your high-priced private school will do any thing more than a public school about this (a student getting some contageous illness)? Don’t fool yourself! I would bet that your private school would even let in a student with HIV if paid enough money.

By Jim D

October 29, 2007 4:13 AM | Link to this

jm,

I will agree that health officials need to be the ones that determine When notification is required, but still feel the who should in fact be the schools.

Look at it this way. In high schools many parents sign up to keep the school from divulging any personal information (generally meant to keep it from military recruiters). So the schools are legally bound and may not give that personal information to anyone. Yet they do have the information and know how to make emergency contact.

So the question is really one of “does the school system have any moral obligations to the public they serve?”

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

JD -

So then you must be in favor of some legislation that REQUIRES doctors to notify schools? Currently there is no requirement. So then, HOW can schools possibly know WHEN to notify parents of this type of thing?

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Lee -

Regarding TB…. I guess that is why you are not a doctor. There are highly contagious forms of TB, and there is TB that is not contagious (see the recent news about an Atlanta man with TB flying to Europe). Some TB requires quaranteened and some does not. I believe it all depends upon the type of TB, on the severity of infection, and also on the stage that the TB is in.

Are you proposing that parents be notified even when it is not a contagious illness? Any illness at all would require notification?

By ion environmental

October 29, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

You can help fight the reduction of MRSA. Maintain your indoor air and surface quality 99% MRSA free (Univ tests to prove). No harmful toxins, chemicals or ozone. www.ionenvironmental.com

By jim d

October 29, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

JM,

Actually NO. I do not advocate more unnecessary legislation. This could be accomplished with a simple mandate from the CDC for doctors to report just like many other diseases.

Since neither the doctor nor the CDC has any information regarding who has been exposed to a potentially contagious child, the CDC could easily contact the school and request they notify parents and teachers—thus providing information that might even be proven to save a few lives.

I really don’t understand why you would have a problem with saving teachers and students from dying

By jim d

October 29, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

ion,

you might wish to make people aware of the Warnings About the Use of Ionizers.

http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm

By SET

October 29, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Just Me: Saw your last post. You still don’t “get” it.

The duty of loyalty/protection that school and teacher have to the students is not delegatable. Thay are unable to wait for anyone else to make decisions. Once they are on notice of a significant threat to life and limb (for example - meningitis on a Friday afternoon) they have a personal duty to specifically warn their students & families. They have no right to delay, to get second opinions, or tell someone else to deal with it. Or to consult any lawbook. It’s called “RESPONSIBILITY” which is something you have not addressed in your musings about what should happen.

Meningitis is a great example because of the way it’s spread and the need to get to the ER at the first sign of symptoms, - symptoms which otherwise would not be taken seriously. It’s the knowledge of possible exposure that makes the difference in reaction to the subtle signs of the impending fatal course of disease.

I assume you are female. Your position on this sort of problem is the syndrome I referred to earlier where women and men differ greatly on protective reactions. I believe it’s just the way people are built which is why we have women in protective careers as an exception.

Women want consultations when instant battle is required. When you are faced with imminent disaster you must act reflexively. You don’t have that reflex.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Set,

I agree. JM’s contention as to who should make contact makes no sense when it involves life.

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

SET -

It is you that doesn’t “get” it. You are the type of person that makes blanket decisions without any understanding of the details it involves. You think that you are right and there is little anyone can do or say to change your mind.

I’ll try one more time, with specific examples (if that’ll help) to show why you are WRONG….

Again, the first to know of a proper diagnosis is the DOCTOR and the DOCTOR should be the one to officially and immediately communicate to others, NOT THE SCHOOL.

If the school had jumped in at any point in the above scenario, and there really was no ‘super bug’, then think of the reaction that would have occurred. Parents would have kept their child home unneccesarily. Teachers would have been freaked out for no reason. Chaos would have been at that school for over a week until the word finally got out that there was no ‘super bug.’

Gee, I wonder what would then happen. Ya think that other kids would giggle and want to continue causing chaos week-to-week in the school?

The “protective actions” that you refer to should come from the medical professions, not from untrainned education administrators. If the medical professionals deem that the school should be shut down, so be it. If the medical professionals deem that the every student be examed, so be it. If the medical professionals deem that the school be quarenteed, so be it. But do not expect administrators to make medical decisions.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

JM,

Why are schools systems responsible?

I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that it is just perhaps because they have assumed the responsibility through their own policies.

I would also suggest that one might want to pick up a copy of their school systems “School Health Resource Guide”, which should explain the process and procedure to be followed in just about any type of health issue.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

JM,

I just gotta ask. Are you my wife? She’s never wrong either! :-)

By JustMe

October 29, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

JD - No, I am not your wife. I have higher standards.

By jim d

October 29, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Oh, you must like the submissive type.

By SET

October 29, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

Just Me: Good discussion,

Go back to the Duty of Care. If the teacher/school ever learns of an imminent threat to life or limb they must act. Regardless of the issue, a shooter on the campus, a Staph infection problem.

Your what if questions attempt to find the line between threats to life and limb being ripe or not. Knock yourself out.

It’s always possible to come up with a hypothetical that is not ripe. My hypo previously given was ripe.

Your base statement is that the duty to warn is not with the school and staff. I read that is 1> incorrect and 2> I take this as your saying that you just don’t see yourself- as a teacher - having any responsibility towards the students.

You think that it is some higher official’s duty. You think that some Dr or Public Health figure is the only one a Grand Jury could confront about a failure to act.

Good Luck.

By SET

October 29, 2007 7:47 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

Shutting down for the day here, looked at your hypos again. Your biggest fear seems to be jumping the gun on a problem that is not real.

My hypo had the teacher/school on notice on a Friday that a student, maybe a wrestling team player, was Dxed with Infectous Meningitis. Your hypos have a teacher seeing something that may or may not be a medical problem. So we are not on the same page.

Once the teacher/school see the train coming they have to get the kids off the train tracks. Maybe that’s not the best way to put this. You are not free to walk the other way to the lemonade stand while your kids are on the tracks and you hear the train.

That doesn’t mean you call Defcon One when somebody has a red arm or coughs in class. We are adults. We are expected to use common sense in recognizing deadly danger - and in knowing when to have a talk with the school nurse or the public health physician. But if deadly danger is clear you have to act. Yes, you.

Go back to the Meningitis hypo on a friday afternoon. Or maybe you just don’t have a clue about Meningitis.

Maybe you just have to wait for someone else to make this decision. Some people just can’t cope. Fine.

But if you fail to use the judgement of a reasonable person and children in your charge are harmed and that harm was avoidable by the excercise of ordinary care, you are looking at criminal charges under the laws of most states. And regardless of that you are personally liable for damages and your employer along with you.

Reasonable care can include calling 911 for an ambulance under certain circumstances. I can’t tell you every instance where that line is reached. You are an adult and are held to adult standard of care & duty under criminal and civil law. Remember that when you decide what is not your job at school.

By Anonymous

November 1, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

I think the pivotal thing you fail to grasp is WHEN a disease is indeed reported to the local health departments and then the state. From my understanding, cases of SEVERE community associated MRSA and cases of CA-MRSA resulting in death are to be reported to the State no matter how many cases a facility has. Now with MILD cases of CA-MRSA, those have to be reported ONLY when there are instances of clusters and outbreaks. The reason behind this? Mild cases of CA-MRSA typically resolve on their own with proper dressing and treatment.

While your column offers a great argument about when a disease is notifiable, I think you missed out on an opportunity to provide key information to the public about when schools and other healthcare settings are to report a notifiable disease to the local health department and then the state. I think they also have a State issued notifiable disease reporting poster that may help educate YOU on this issue and when it is reported.

By Bridget Gutierrez

November 2, 2007 12:02 AM | Link to this

Anon: If you read my story, which I linked to in my blog post, you would see that I explained the nuances of when MRSA is supposed to be reported to the state health department.

You also would have learned that the director of public health in Fulton County expects that all cases of MRSA be reported — regardless of severity or whether the cases occur in “clusters.” So there’s obviously a disagreement there among some public health officials when it comes to MRSA reporting.

Also, if you’d like to check it out, you can find a link to the state-issued notifiable disease reporting poster, which you referred to, above.