Get Schooled

By Jeff

October 25, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

This is one where my “personal liberty” side kicks in again.

I say clearly define (and force admin to support) RIDICULOUSLY HIGH expectations.

Inform the kids of the effects of the sugar and caffeine. Tell them that a well balanced meal of SOME sugar, combined with bread and meat is FAR better for them and will give them an energy level that is more sustainable. (I say this after having toast with grape jelly and bacon, with apple juice for breakfast all last week on the cruise, but while I have 2 20oz Mountain Dews on my desk right now!)

Then let them decide.

This is one area where I simply believe that giving the kids choices does no overt harm yet allows them to make decisions on their own and learn to accept responsibility for those decisions.

Much better to learn the effects while in school than while on the job!

By DB

October 25, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

Time to sound like a fuddy-duddy: We didn’t have snack machines in any school while we were growing up, and somehow, I managed to make it through the day. ADULTS have trouble by-passing the tripe that gets sold in those machine, so why do we think that impulsive kids should have a higher degree of discretion and judgement when it comes to an impulse purchase of a pack of crackers that are about 180 calories of nothing but fat?

We’re talking out of both sides of our mouth when we bemoan childhood obesity, and yet tolerate putting this c**p in our schools while at the same time eliminating much-needed physical education activity. Talk about mixed signals!

Sorry, Jeff (welcome back, BTW!), but I’ll have to disagree with you on this one. Personal liberty for a teenager does not include the access to the trash that passes for food in these machines during the school day. Plus, it would eliminate a source of trash that seems to litter the halls and grounds of so many public schools. The only “pro” I can think of is income for the school — and that’s just not a good enough reason.

By Jeff

October 25, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

DB:

To make an analogy to something else I am familiar with:

The argument for pulling these things out of schools is ULTRA similar to the argument in the Christian community for pulling kids out of public schools:

There are too many negative influences, so we must remove the negative influences from our kids’ view.

Granted, in the public v private school example, the kids themselves get removed (the “good” is removed from the presence of the “bad”), while here we are talking about removing the “bad” from the presence of the “good”.

I hold that the similarity is striking, and that the logic in both situations is inherently flawed.

Kids cannot learn to make good decisions when good decisions are the only options. They MUST learn to make good decisions when bad ones are also options. This teaches both good decision making and personal responsibility. The other option, of having only good decisions available as options, does NEITHER.

By Old School

October 25, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Take the vending machines out of the schools and high school students will still come on campus consuming fast food “breakfasts” and swilling soft drinks.

Vending machines are a cash cow for schools…no doubt about that…but students and their parents will still make their own food choices regardless.

I think schools would have better luck limiting options for younger students who are “captive audiences” (don’t drive themselves.) Maybe good choices CAN be taught/made available. Who knows, maybe some kids will actually develop better eating habits because of it.

By Janine

October 25, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

I’m with DB here. I am a proponent of the “action first, understanding follows” in this instance and in most instances in which rearing children is concerned. Adults make decisions for children…not giving them the right to be wrong concerning behavior that affects their health and well being. No choices about what time to be in the house, or whether or not to stay home from school, no choice as to whether to pack an Oreo, Chips, and Coke lunch. Children will hopefully develop their ability to make good choices by first having good choices made for them. [We talk about this parenting thing here all the time, don’t we?] Allowing even Middle school and high school students to make poor choices….to have these poor choices on every corner of the school is a mistake bordering on negligence, NOT a lesson in decision making. The hope is that after years and years of being guided toward a certain behavior ..and even forced to behave in a certain way, that the behavior will become a part of the child and then he/she will make good decisions by themselves. Making good decisions sometimes comes from experiencing negative consequences…but in things affecting health and well being, adults must ensure that the temptation to make bad decisions is limited…..thus…a parent would not allow her 16 year old to drive the family car full of other teens.

By Jeff

October 25, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

Old School:

I like your proposal. How about this:

Instead of removing “bad” things all together, require that an equal amount of “good” things be similarly priced and made available directly beside the “bad” things.

Again, it would teach CHOICES and RESPONSIBILITY.

For example, if you have a coke machine that dispenses 5 different kinds of canned soft drink for $0.65, you would be required to have a water machine that dispenses 5 different kinds of canned water for $0.65 right beside it.

If you had a snack machine that sold various “bad” snacks for between $0.50 and $1, you would be required to have another snack machine right beside it that sold various “good” snacks for the same prices. Note that you would further be required to offer the same amounts of snacks at the various prices (ie no loading the “bad” machine with cheap things and loading the “good” machine with only the more expensive things).

What do y’all think about that???

By jim d

October 25, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

I really don’t have an opinion on this one. But here’s an interesting observation

Bloggers who have become rather irate, whenever I have suggested that students be treated with more respect towards there ability to make choices, are some of the same ones that feel children should have the liberty to choose what they eat and that the schools have no obligation to assure what they are offering is healthy foods. Amazing isn’t it?

By jim d

October 25, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

I don’t generally apologize for my spelling errors since this is merely a blog. However, since I am acutely aware that more than a few bloggers here have a pet peeve regarding the use of “there” and “their”, I sincerely apologize for my error in the previous post.

By Lee

October 25, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Hmmmm….

• 30+ years ago, we had coke machines and vending machines in our high school. There were many days that I had a Coke and crackers for lunch, ignoring the lunchroom fare. I don’t think you can pin the blame for obesity on vending machine food at schools.

• I haven’t read any scientific data on the subject so this is purely my opinion, but I am a firm believer that much our society’s problems with obesity is due in large part to the growth hormones and other additives that are contained in livestock food, which are ultimately consumed by us humans.

• Of course, when I was in elementary school, we had two 15 minute recesses and one 30 minute recess. I also do not think we had 2+ hours of homework every night like my kids had.

• Society was different. We came home from school and we were in someone’s yard playing ball, running, jumping, swimming in the creek, etc. Most of today’s kids don’t have that.

• Television. Probably the number one cause of obesity in America.

• Growing up, the nearest McDonalds was 25 miles away. Today,……

Bottom line, there are a lot of factors at work.

By Jeff

October 25, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Jim:

Ever hear the quote - from Jefferson, I believe - “In matter of style, swim like the fish. In matter of principle, stand like a rock.”?

I believe it applies here. You say students need more respect across the board, and as a principle I say this is not the case. However, it is also a principle of mine that students need to be allowed to make choices in limited cirumstances in order to teach decision making overall.

This is such a limited circumstance. There really is no educational principal behind forcing students to eat certain foods. Indeed, as I have pointed out, you are stifling good learning opportunities.

Now, when it comes to other issues where schools dictate a student’s every action - such as demanding obedience - there are, in fact, solid REASONS for enforcing this standard.

By DB

October 25, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

jim d, don’t sweat the small stuff :-) I was at a competition a few weeks back and saw a t-shirt iron-on decal for sale that said, “Clap when their finished”. I was aghast, and asked the vendor, “Umm … did you know you had a misspelling on that decal?” The vendor looked at it and said, “No, there isn’t!” “Yes, I’m afraid so — ‘their’ should be ‘they’re’.” The vendor glared at me and informed me that I was WRONG. Oh, well … shrug.

Jeff, if there was an opportunity to teach choices, then I’d agree with you. But there are no “teaching moments” in front of a vending machine. There’s simply hunger, impulse and —whoosh!— go a few quarters. The Reeses Cups are the first to go, and long after everything else in the machine is decimated, the granola bars will sit there, alone and unloved. :-) One doesn’t put garbage in front of a kid and then chide them for eating it! It is not an abridgement of their constitutional rights to NOT sell snack food at school. They are free to pursue happiness after school at the local QT. :-)

I learned the value of a decent breakfast the hard way (sometimes the only way I can learn!) as a senior in high school. Every day of my life up to that point, my mom had fixed breakfast — eggs, bacon, toast, orange juice, milk. Or pancakes. Or French toast. Or grapefruit and cereal. Whatever — I had to eat breakfast, end of story (she was a teacher, and knew well what low blood sugar meant at 10 am!) Finally, my senior year, I rebelled and declared that I would NO LONGER eat breakfast, I simply did NOT have time! Wisely, my mom just said, “OK.” About a month later, it finally dawned on me why I was tired and cranky around second period and dragged around all morning. In October, I meekly asked my mom to please include me in the family breakfast again … she just smiled and set another plate. Now, if vending machines had been at school, I would have been all over them, trying to find something to “tide me over to lunch.”

And yes, I, too, have fixed breakfast for my kids every single day of their school life. :-).

By V for Vendetta

October 25, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

LOL Lee, meat hormones … yeah right.

Look, no matter what anyone says schoosl won’t take the vending machines out. I had a similar conversation with an admin that I actually respect (I know, right!?) here at my school, and he told me how much money the school makes off of the machines. The amount blew me away, it was in the MULTIPLE hundreds of thousands — get used to the vending machines!

The real problem is nutrition education and physical activity. Because many of the middle school phys ed. programs are such a joke now, kids are growing up with no respect or understanding of physical education. It’s sad, and as others have said, it is far different from how it was not too long ago.

There is nothing else to blame it on, it’s a cultural thing. I had a TV in my room, a computer, video games, telephone, and a CD player, but I played outside religiously and participated in very high level sports. I never sat around and watched TV because I knew my dad would throw all of that stuff out on the driveway and back over it in the car if I wasted my life on it (he said as much).

How many parents say things like that today? How many parents EXPECT fitness from their children? How many schools actually EDUCATE the kids on the REAL effects of malnutrition and obesity? I’d wager not very many.

To this day I still work out religiously, and I’m in better shape than nearly every student-athlete at my school. THAT’S NOT A BOAST, BECAUSE IT SHOULDN’T BE THAT WAY! What is WRONG with these kids? Do the not have any PRIDE in their appearence or abilities? I can’t understand it.

Perhaps all of the people who say that you should love yourself no matter how you look should amend that to say you should love yourself, but you could stand to lose a few pounds. :-)

By JustMe

October 25, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Question #1: Since when it is the school’s responsibility to provide snacks (vending machines) to students to purchase? If students require a snack, let them bring it from home. That way the PARENTS can decide what the snack should be. Or, if the parents want to allow the kids to decide (like so many do these days), they can choose to do that AT HOME.

Question #2: Why are kids roaming the halls eating during class time? Shouldn’t there be some security guards and/or cameras that catch these kids skipping class? Just because the teacher may have given a pass to use the rest room, it was NOT a pass to go to the vending machine and eat in the hallway. Where are the administrators? The teachers are in the class rooms doing their job, why can’t the security guards and administrators do their’s?

Question #3: Do you really think that kids will absorb any real information that is provided, or do you think that they will do what they want to anyway? Trying to explain the harmful nature of that Snickers candy bar to a 10 year old is like trying to make a chicken fly - can’t be done. The kid wants the Snickers bar, so the kid will eat the Snickers bar - no thought process involved. That is WHY THEY ARE KIDS! Kids need adult guidance and supervision. They cannot make the right decisions that is in their best interest. They do not have life experiences and they do not have the knowledge that adults have. If you can find a 10 year old that can ponder the pros and cons of that Snickers bar and make the correct informed decision that is really in their best interest, I will show you a kid that is wise far beyond their years.

By HB

October 25, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

High school students are old enough to decide what they want to eat. But in my opinion, that has nothing to do with whether or not schools should have vending machines. Can they get junk food elsewhere? Sure. Will removing vending machines remove junk food from their lives? Of course not.

The fact is, though, that teaching good nutrition while making a profit from selling junk simply sends a bad message — they’re going to eat it anyway, so why not make some money instead of letting the 7-11 across the street reap all the profit?

If it were a matter of having a machine or 2 around like in the olden days, I wouldn’t think this was that big of a deal. I visited my old high school recently. When I was a student, we had one juice, one coke, and one snack machine all in the same spot and by state law, they were not turned on until after all lunch periods had ended. Those machines are still there by the gym, but now there’s also a line of 5 or 6 coke, candy, and ice cream machines at the entrance to the cafeteria that are turned on for the entire day. That crosses a line from having a snack available to purchase primarily for students involved in after school activities, to actively pushing the sale of junk food and putting it in direct competition with the line lunch. My second high school put in a food court not long after I graduated, complete with a Pizza Hut. Sales soared and both the school and the restaurant profited, but at what cost? Kids who didn’t like the previous offerings would have had a hard time packing even an unhealthy lunch that matches the calorie and fat count of a greasy personal pan pepperoni pizza.

Students should be allowed to make choices, and I think it would be wrong to ban junk food from campus. They should have the option of eating a healthy school lunch or bringing in their own food, healthy or not. It’s simply wrong, though, for schools to try to make a profit by providing unhealthy options.

By JustMe

October 25, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Argueing about the kid’s decision is useless. The true root of all evil is money.

The school wants money. An easy source of the money is from the vending machines. The vending machines don’t complain, they don’t sue, they don’t cost a salary, they just sit there and make money for the school.

If the school really cared about the kids, there won’t be those machines. But, their priority is money and not the kids. And, when I say “their,” I mean the administration (primarily the Principal).

And, that is the bottom line.

That vending machine money can go (and usually does) to a slush fund that the Principal uses however they see fit. That money is not accountable by the school system, so it is basically “off of the books.” If you were a Principal, won’t you love those vending machines?

Why in the world would a Principal want to remove them?

By jim d

October 25, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I’m confident the very same Thomas Jefferson made the following statement.

“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences of too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”

By SET

October 25, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Lee has a point. Sugar Soda’s were around when I was in school also, and perhaps when my parents were in school. Most everybody managed to keep things in balance.

If the kids are declining it may have somehing to do with 1>Really bad eugenics and 2>Failure Factories they spend time in and lastly 3> POS parents.

Not all kids are having problems. The CA public school kids I’m especially worried about. The children of the rich seem to be taken care of.

By JustMe

October 25, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

SET

You are correct. Not all kids have this problem. Sodas are cheap surgar water. Wealthy kids drink the fad drinks like green tea (much more healthy).

However, it is the schools that provide the opportunities for kids to drink the surgar water that are at fault, IMHO. Should schools also provide the opportunities for kids to buy other things known to be bad for them?

jim d- If alcohol was legal for minors, do you think it would be okay for schools to sell alcohol out of vending machines in the hallways? Your answer will be telling…..

By HB

October 25, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

SET and Lee, you’re right that junk food has been around for a long time, and it’s balance that seems to be gone now. It’s important to note, though, that current school vending machine offerings tip the balance further than before with larger portion sizes. Sodas have changed from 8 oz glass bottles way back when to 12 oz cans to the current 20 oz bottles. Same is true of chip bags. Those big grab bags are over twice the size of the snack bag I grew up with. What was once a 250-calorie afternoon snack after school is now an extra 500-calorie meal in a day that likely doesn’t include P.E.

Schools alone can’t be blamed for the rise in childhood obesity (as you correctly pointed out, sedentary lifestyles outside of school are a huge part of the equation) and shouldn’t be expected to fix it, but they certainly should work on setting a good example and lessening their own contributions to the problem.

By gary furman

October 25, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Clearly, vending food is junk that reinforces bad eating habits of students. “Justme” is absolutely correct in that funds are used by the principal. However this is borne of desperation, and here is why: in poor, mostly rural, districts (because poor urban districts get Title I funds), the “pay low taxes” attitude of the public barely covers employee salaries and benefits. There is NO money for computers, paper, lab equipment, texts, votech materials, etc. Virtually ALL this money comes from vending machines and school moneymaking projects like bake sales and carwashes. The principal can also use this money to give employees a lunch or two each year, or to offer college scholarships to motivate students. Without vending and fundraiser monies, the school would be forced to operate like one in a 3rd world nation. I went to a great high school in a great suburb in Michigan where people DID adequately support the school, but rural communities lack the types of household incomes and pro-education ideals that upscale suburbs do.

By jim d

October 25, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Just me,

That question doesn’t even warrant an answer but I’ll give you one anyway.

Not no but H3ll No!!

It is legal for adults to drink but I don’t allow it here at work or even in my vehicles.

By Lee

October 25, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

HB, good point on the size of the servings nowadays.

I remember when Coke came in 6 and 10 oz bottles and 12 oz cans. Most people preferred the bottles because the cans “tasted funny.” Double Cola had a whopping 16 oz.

Today, 20 oz drinks are the norm. Also, I went through a Wendy’s the other day and was thirsty, so I ordered the “Medium” size meal. The drink had to have been 32 ounces.

Nowadays, when my wife and I go out to eat, we often split the entree and get an extra salad.

The portions are that big (plus it’s cheaper).

By Tony

October 25, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Junk food has been around for quite some time. Machines in schools have also been around selling stuff to kids. To make the tremendous leap and conclude that junk food in schools is making kids fat is utterly ridiculous. Come on, y’all. Kids need to exercise more and this is not the school’s responsibility alone. Parents must enter the equation. Besides, isn’t it the parent who gives money to the child to feed the machines?

Let me take issue with the guest bloggers remark about “money-grubbing administrators.” Teachers, students, and communities like having good amenities for their schools. There are many extras that are expected from teachers that do not come from the general budget of the school. If principals take opportunities to generate funds that can be used to enhance the quality of a school, does this make them “money-grubbing?” I have worked with many fine administrators in my career and have been lucky enough to see in each one of them a passion for their students. Enough of the unfounded attacks on school leaders.

By ironmaiden

October 25, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

Not so many years ago, it was acceptable to hold a graduation ceremony in the football stadium. When I taught for Fort Worth, ISD several high schools even shared a centrally located stadium for athletics. Now the ceremony must be held at a large rented venue. Perhaps administrators are not money-grubbing, but trying too hard to meet the demands of the public for showmanship. But I believe it is certainly beyond the boundaries of what one should expect from an institution whose focus is education. No such problem exists in most of Europe where schools are open for scholarship only, and extracurriculars are the private, or community, domain. Our education system has spread itself too thin and requires too many $$.

By Lisa B.

October 25, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

Teach your kids what to eat. For the last 6-7 years, the State of Georgia has continued with Austerity Cuts to schools, despite the economic upswing. Every year local school systems are forced to find money from other sources, including increased property taxes. If kids put their money into school soda machines instead of the soda machine at the gas station, so be it. The kids who drink soda, are going to drink it anyway. When purchased at school, at least the school gets a cut, which helps purchase printer cartridges, printer paper etc.

I refuse to fight the battle over what kids eat. We rarely eat chips, drink soda, etc., at my house. When away from home, my 13-year-old son choses water over soda, doesn’t like chips, etc. (He adore Skittles, which aren’t available in school machines).

I do appreciate healthier choices in vending machines. Students especially like bottled water. The money helps strapped school budgets. PLEASE don’t insist that vending machines be removed because kids can’t resist them. Shall we remove beer from the grocery store in case an alcoholic can’t resist it? How about Twinkies? Should we remove all temptation from the food addicts?

Give me a break. Sheesh!

By Lisa B.

October 25, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this

I am concerned that schools are expected to make so many decisions for kids. Parents are supposed to raise their kids. Schools provide education, extra-curricular activites, etc. I don’t think any child becomes overweight merely because of food intake at school. I also know that “smart” kids, don’t become smart just because of school, and the “not smart” children don’t owe their entire failure to the school either. The parents of my students don’t know me from Adam when their kids are placed in my classroom. I try my very, very best to teach them all to reach their highest potential. I’ll never, in the hours I spend with them daily, be able to (nor do I want to) replace their parents.

By Lisa B.

October 25, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this

Lee made valid points that our society has changed. Thankfully, I live in rural South Georgia, and we spend time boating, water-skiing, bicycling, hiking, camping, etc.

I can’t believe the blog is still open for comments this late. Normally, by the time I catch up on the reading, comments are closed. I love reading all your posts, even when I can’t reply.

By luvs2teach

October 25, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe the commenting is still open either…

I have more of a problem with the fat-laden crap that passes for lunch than the vending machines. Nachoes? Corn dogs? Please.

I remember when pizza was an every-other-Friday treat, and not a daily choice.

I don’t have a problem with the machines that serve juice, water, or other healthy snacks at the middle school level and I don’t have a problem with schools profiting from the money per se.

It does bother me that I have kids who are on free or reduced lunch throwing down a buck or more on vending machine water (when the water cooler is right next to it). One of the first budget suggestions for people watching their pennies (or quarters, as the case may be) is to stay away from vending machines.

Junkier junk food should be reserved for high school students (and the teacher lounge,lol) IMO.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 8:00 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Let me understand your position here. I am a bit confused….

You believe that kids should be able to make their own decisions. You think that kids should be able to decide between things that are good for them and things that are bad for them. You feel that they have maturity and knowledge and you seem to have faith that they will make the right decisions.

However, when it comes to adults that you work with (or they work for you), you have rules restricting their choices? You don’t have faith that they will make the right decisions? You don’t think that the adults are mature and knowledgeable to make the right decision?

Do I understand your position properly?

By Jeff

October 26, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

In case anyone hasn’t yet heard, the rapist thug Genarlow Wilson was just ordered freed.

Talk about activist judges!

By jim d

October 26, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Are you a crack-head?

By Lee

October 26, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Jeff, the Genarlow Wilson case has it’s own blog It doesn’t belong here.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

jim d-

If I do not have your position properly stated, please correct me by telling what you do believe. Name calling is not needed.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

once again you have failed to comprehend.

Exactly when and where did I call a name? I merely asked a question. Your response to my question is indeed quite telling.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

jim d-

However, you never responded to correct any mis-statement I made regarding your position? Hmmmmmm.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

JM

that is simply because a response wasn’t warranted in my opinon and whats more, if it were, you would have failed to grasp the answer as you have so frequently done in the past.

By JustMe

October 26, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Double talk without any real response - typical.

By jim d

October 26, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Yes indeed—I’m learning from one of the best——YOU