Get Schooled

By Zoe

October 22, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

It isn’t what the schools can look like, it is the schools letting kids know what they need in order to be what they want to be. Too often I have discussions with students advising them on classes they need to be what they want….and they are shocked! You would be amazed at the number of students that didn’t know they needed science classes to be doctors and vets. I have students that want to be dancers and have never taken formal dance classes in their lives. Students that want to be actors that refuse to try out for the school plays because it is “beneath” them, and no, they aren’t performing anywhere else either.

By Zoe

October 22, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

It isn’t what the schools can look like, it is the schools letting kids know what they need in order to be what they want to be. Too often I have discussions with students advising them on classes they need to be what they want….and they are shocked! You would be amazed at the number of students that didn’t know they needed science classes to be doctors and vets- and then after I show them the requirements, some think they can just “get around it.” I have students that want to be dancers and have never taken formal dance classes in their lives. Students that want to be actors that refuse to try out for the school plays because it is “beneath” them, and no, they aren’t performing anywhere else either. Many students don’t realize being a lawyer or president involves social studies since both require a need to understand the past, whether from court precedents or why the US has gone to war.

For everything you listed above, the classes are there in schools, but it is up to the students to put the effort in to achieve. At some point, we need to put the onus of responsibility back on the students.

By JustMe

October 22, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

One word answer: fantasy-land.

Children have these dreams because they do not know what is involved in accomplishing them. Once they mature and see what it really takes, they mostly change their mind.

I cannot count how many times a student says that they want to be a doctor/surgeon. Then, when I tell them the amount of college/education that they must complete and the subject content that they must learn, they quickly change their goals.

I do not believe that we should foster fantasy, but be real about what it takes to get there. There is already enough fantasy for kids these days: X-box, nintendo, etc.

By HS Teacher Too

October 22, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Zoe, that problem is true in high schools as well. Ask kids where they want to go to college and their answers are unrealistic. I once did a project where my sophomores and early-juniors had to research five colleges in terms of their average SAT scores, class ranks, etc. I thought my kids would have their eyes opened a little, perhaps work a little harder towards achieving a goal. Instead, SOME of the kids did that — but others just thought they’d be the exceptions. I guess this is the same phenomenon you describe.

How can we work toward making this phenomenon lessened, though, to answer Bridget’s question? I think we need more “reality checks” more frequently, and earlier in our kids’ schooling. Guest speakers who tell the truth. College admissions reps visiting middle schools and even elementary schools. And for goodness’ sake, let’s quit it with the self-esteem junk that means no kids get cut from teams, all teams get trophies, and everyone makes chorus or the school play. Realistic “cuts” and having winners and losers will show students the realities of what comes later in life — and what they need to do to achieve their dreams. If nothing else, a kid who gets cut from the basketball team may either learn what he needs to do to make the team next year, or perhaps decide to shelve the NBA-star dreams. (And if they shelve them but decide to, say, pursue coaching or reff’ing … even better— they stay within their dream!)

By SET

October 22, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Just Me and HS Teacher Too couldn’t have said it better. A good school does not let it’s students walk around with their head in the clouds. A Bad School does.

I have done the career day speaking thing. And I make it clear that one can become an attorney - even with a drug habit, an alcohol habit, criminal family, etc etc. I’ve gone to law school or worked with all of them. You don’t have to be especially smart although it helps a lot. Other careers may have similar issues - I only spoke for my profession. Now at this point the classroom is thinking, this isn’t so bad after all.

Then I get to what you do have to do and a lot of the students drop off.

In a nutshell you have to grow up, take care of #1, lose your loser friends, postpone and delay marriage and childbirth, limit interpersonal commitments (including parents and their wishes) because your career comes before anything and anyone else (at least until you have a career - bar passage). And stop running around expecting people to love you, agree with you or pat you on the head. You also have to take on some (non dischargable) debt matching your ambitions, and read a LOT, and take part time jobs that relate to your career plan. And these rules start in high school because each step on the way leads to the next and the path you would be taking deselects anybody without the requisite dedication.

The interesting part is to see which students say “absolutely not” and which ones say “I’m in”. Believe me there is a reason why gender and race factor in to those who make it. Rigorous Career Paths may require you to chose yourself and your interests over making other people happy.

That’s why it’s always easier for the children of Drs and Lawyers to become Drs and Lawyers. Their families have a clue of what’s required and they don’t hold them back with the pats on the back.

If the kids want something with a shorter path there is always the Prison Guard Academy - or any of the Jr. College Vocational programs. And there is no classroom work (or reading and writing) required to say “would you like fries with that?”

By jim d

October 22, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Head in the clouds? Unrealistic dreaming? Perhaps, but great things begin with small dreams. Anyone willing to pay their dues and strive for greatness can make those dreams a reality.

I’m with ZOE and JM on this one. Explain what will be demanded and encourage the students to GO FOR IT If they want it bad enough they will make it happen.

By John in Tampa, FLA

October 22, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

My mother always told me she wished if i had kids they would grow up just like me.

That scared me so much i had a vasectomy.

I grew up making good money with virtually no responsibilties.

It works for me.

By Mrs. Warren

October 22, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Too many parents want a free ride for themselves and thus set the example that stuff should just be given to you. I can’t stand those people and I am losing my patience with them. I worked my butt off to get where I am, despite of lousy counseling in high school. I’m working on my master’s to become an elementary teacher. I hope I can set an example for these kids that they can do anything they want, but you have to work for it or you’ll end up working at the Buy and Bag or McDonalds.

By catlady

October 22, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

they don’t hold them back with the pats on the back.

SET, such truth in so few words…..

By Uh-oh

October 22, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Don’t start sounding like Prince Charles! He got in trouble for trying to speak about what was actually “achievable,” remember!

By Stacey

October 22, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, some parents’ dreams/goals for their kids are also unrealistic. I had a “conversation” recently with my sister-in-law who is livid that her 11th grade son is being encouraged to pursue a trade instead of a university. He is a really good kid who gives 110% towards whatever he does. The problem is he’s slow (we thought for years that he was autistic) and simply isn’t able to comprehend on the necessary level to succeed in college. He’s been fortunate enough to be able to attend schools that afforded him the help available to “get by” in a regular classroom. His mother seems not to understand that that help isn’t available at a university. I believe that he can be trained to be a successful, productive member of society but not as a surgeon.

I don’t have a problem with “encouraging” their dreams when kids are young. Right now my six year old know that he’s going to be doctor, a football player and Pokemon master…he’s just not sure which one to do first. My husband told him that Pokemon Masters aren’t real and his reply was “Daddy, I know the ones on the cartoon aren’t real but I can be one in real life.” For now, I’m just happy that he has dreams.

By SET

October 22, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

I just thought of something - children who have never been called on in class - put on the spot and expected to deal with it publicly - are at a big disadvantage in “becoming a lawyer” compared to kids who have such experience from an early age.

My classmates and I in primary school were expected to be called on in class, stand up and say something appropriate to answer the question(s). The Nuns would let you sit down when they thought you’d had enough or were enjoying it. If they didn’t like your answers they might stride down the row of desks and kick you. If they were satisfied with your performance you could sit down.

This was very good training for Law School where similar tactics were employed (minus the physical kicks but lots of verbal kicks).

When I speak at public schools I make a point of getting the clas roster and calling on the students by name without warning. They act as if I was committing tresspass. These kids are just not being taught to be competitive.

It’s wrong to baby them and then have them talking about how thay are going to be (insert fantasy). I’d prefer the teachers to tell them that when teacher gets through with you, maybe you can go on to be whatever.

By Lee

October 22, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

He11, I’m 50 years old and I still don’t know what I want to do with the rest of my life.

Of course, buying a red corvette and running off with the receptionist ranks high on the list, but unfortunately, the little Missus knows where I hid the butcher knives. Something about the way she said “you gotta sleep sometime” keeps this old tomcat in line.

But seriously, when I was in middle school, I think my goals were to become a cowboy or a race car driver.

On one hand, its nice for them to know what they want to do and to know the reality behind what they have to do to achieve those goals.

On the other hand, planning on what to do for the rest of your life is a mighty tall order for a twelve year old.

By jim d

October 22, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

I don’t know Stacey,

My senior is working on getting admitted to college with aspirations of a major in criminology and doing pre-law, do NROTC and become an officer in the US NAVY.

He’s got a long way to go to make a decision on what he wants after that and how or if his education will play into his future. I say encourage them to go for their dreams but don’t push them into making or cementing decisons now that will change down the road.

They have a lifetime to decide and things do change.

By jim d

October 22, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Warren,

“I can’t stand those people and I am losing my patience with them.”

“I’m working on my master’s to become an elementary teacher.”

You’re gonna fit right in. (lol)

By I don't wanna grow up

October 23, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

Ah, college! They say you change more over the course of your four years than you will over a lifetime. (Who is this proverbial “they” anyway?) College is a time for growth and maturity. By the time you bid farewell to this fine university, diploma in hand, you’re expected to be an “adult,” or at least act like one. (As if a diploma signifies one’s emotional maturity?) The scary but inevitable “real world” awaits you. If you’re a senior, the career world is imminent. First years, I envy you, as you have three and half years to enjoy the college lifestyle. However, first years and seniors alike, there is hope! The solution: act like a kid again!

There is a theory in modern psychology that claims that the more we age, we tend to revert back to our childhood tendencies. Many coeds have responded to this harsh realization by trying to savor these last few years of permitted immaturity. Reverting to the comfort of one’s childhood routines is a common phenomenon. College is supposed to be the best four years of your life. Why waste it by worrying about the frightening reality that lies ahead?

This childlike behavior is evident in our daily routines. Think about it. You wake up late for class (or maybe you’re too lazy to shower and get dressed) so you head to class in your pajamas. Just as a child is permitted to wear night attire in public; this behavior is excusable, even accepted in a classroom setting. Most professors don’t seem to mind this lack of professionalism; rather it’s just part of being a college kid.

And what about naps? I know for many of my friends that a twenty-minute siesta is an essential part of the day. Remember the days when naps were mandatory? Your mother would force you to lie down so you weren’t cranky. Now a good nap is something to be envied!

The college diet is another example. Kool-aid and Kraft macaroni and cheese become staples. Need I mention entertainment? My roommate’s favorite network seems to be the Disney Channel. Reruns of Sister Sister and Boy Meets World are something to get excited about. Don’t forget about the “old school” Nintendo or Super Nintendo! We live for our late-night Super Mario games! A certain game involving ping pong balls, cups and libations seems rather childlike. Remember when you used to play ping pong in your neighbor’s basement? Beer pong is just the college version of this juvenile game.

Yes, it seems we simply don’t want to grow up. However, I’m convinced that we need these four years to get it (immaturity) out of our system. We have the rest of our lives ahead of us to be serious, level-headed adults. Why not have a little fun while we can? That, my friend, is truly the college experience—naps, Kool-aid, Nintendo and all!

So don’t rush us!

By Janine

October 23, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

What would school have to look like for more children to realize their dreams when they grow up?

Individuals who have realize[d] their dreams are just that…individuals..They come from all kinds of families[or no family at all], all places, all manner and forms of schooling [or no schooling at all.] The one thing they have in common [if anything]???? SET’s omnipresent and pervasive… potential, intelligence, or as SET has so often pointed out…IQ. Not the MENSA IQ, but , let’s say, an adequate IQ. {I am excluding “savants” }. And so, I think the answer to your question is , while schools may have influence, they are not the determining factor.

A personal note: My children attended a small high school [long closed] in the Emory, CDC area. For a long time, I was convinced that they and so many of their classmates became successful doctors, lawyers, entrpreneurs, business owners,etc. because of the nature of the school. However, I have since re-thought the issue. I am now leaning again toward the ‘quality blackberries produce quality blackberry jam’. THe processing plant has a role, but not the determing one.

By SET

October 23, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

I agree that IQ is what matters, not “dreams”. Actually I’m tired of educators even using that word. Promoting “dreams” is like promoting “lottery tickets” as an “investment”.

Planning makes the difference between the haves and the have nots. Being in the right place at the right time may have helped but planning to be ready to take advantage of what comes along is important and keeping all your options open is simply not taught in the public schools.

Day by day the public school kids limit their options in life. They (tend to) don’t read, they develop messy personal lives, they limit their interpersonal network to their own tribe, they refuse to learn how to pass in society, etc. Before you even get to academics they have avoided a range of occupational and education possibilities by getting too comfortable whatever ghetto they have to lie in. In my experience most supposedly middle class 18 year olds don’t even have a suit. If you want to take them somewhere you have to dress them yourselves to make sure they don’t show up in pjs, track suits, or whatever else they expect to walk around in. Comfortable clothes, get it?

Maybe it’s all about comfort - my generation was kept a little uncomfortable, what with VietNam and the revolution going on (we thought it was a revolution anyway). So when that dot.com company came along we figured it might just be interesting. Ever try to hand a hot new job prospect to public school graduates lately? The hustle is missing.

These kids are not brought up to look for “interesting” as much as “comfortable”. I don’t agree with making adolescents comfortable and I sure don’t want them to have a lot of self esteem. Self respect yes, self esteem no.

They can have self esteem when they are paying my bills and pushing my wheelchair. And by then I’ll ask them what to do instead of the reverse.

By V for Vendetta

October 23, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

All I know is that I had a girl last year who was failing every class declare that she wanted to be a doctor. I told her she would be lucky to find a job at Arby’s. Her response: you’re not being very supportive of my dream.

Shame on me!

By jim d

October 23, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

V

Could it happen? Could she become a doctor? Who would any of us be to say not? Sure it would be difficult, and maybe even highly improbable, but the fact remains that it wouldn’t be out of the realm of reality for her to get the necessary education to actually succeed.

I’m not saying fill these kids minds with unrealistic pipe dreams, to the contrary, introduce them to reality by explaining what they would have to do and encourage them to go for it if that is what they truly want.

While it may be true in this case that the young lady in question might be quite fortunate indeed to land a job as a fast food clerk, Explaining what it would take for her dreams to materialize may have been a more positive means of support.

By Janine

October 23, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

SET…YOu may have something there with the “comfort” thing. My generation ….never comfortable in class, no matter how smart! Always afraid of no knowing the right answer, and often being teased by the teacher [I wont go so far as to say humiliated, though it was close.

By WFC

October 26, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

Dreams are sometimes at least partially fulfilled in unexpected ways. My dreams of being a historical hero and professional athlete came to fruition in my career as a teacher of history and high school coach. Close enough!