Get Schooled

By jim d

October 18, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Indeed I have.

And the only point I would bring up is that yes a poor teacher may be the sole reason a particular student fails to succeed.

As has been pointed out here before, there are even some posting to these blogs, that other bloggers are thankful are not teaching their children.

By Janine

October 18, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

RE:Although there are a few bad teachers (just like any profession). It has been my observation, that because, IN GENERAL, the education classes in most colleges and universities are much less stringent than other majors, perhaps more of the less competent students are attracted to the field. For example, instead of Chaucer’s tales, ed majors are often taking “Kiddie Lit”…Other students often make quite a bit of fun of ed majors. Many good teachers do emerge from these programs, but one can’t ignore the attraction that a less demanding program has for less competent, or even just lazy students.

By Janine

October 18, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

One of my professors during my M ed. program was in a so-called real subject area..[ outside of the education dept.] He made no secret his feeling that the M ed. degree program did not hold a candle to the MAT degree program, which indeed required many more classes in subject areas outside the education dept.

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

All professions have some people in them that are not good at their job. And, this includes teaching.

What is different in education is that ALL people fully believe that they are EXPERTS in education. Why don’t ALL people fully believe that they are experts in construction, or in computer programming, or in……?

The general public needs to understand that ALL people are not experts in education. Heck, even SOME people with education degrees are not experts!

But, SOME news people, SOME parents, even SOME students fully believe that THEY know best in education. THAT is what is screwy to me.

As a teacher in front of a high school class every day, yes, I have had few students think that I am not a good teacher - they have a right to think that. However, I point to my student scores on tests (standardized and otherwise) to show my success. I realize that these scores not only reflect my success as a teacher, but also the student success as a good student. I am not claiming to be the sole answer or solution. But heck, give credit where credit is due.

I have had parents and administrators visit my classroom. Without exception, the adults have shared with me that they wish they had me as a teacher when they were in high school. For me, that means a great deal because they have life experiences and have seen plenty of teachers in K-12 and in college.

IMHO, before any parent complains about any teacher, they should be REQUIRED to sit in on that teachers class to really see what’s going on. Too many students are immature and quickly lie about a teacher to cover for their own short-comings (especially to their parents). And, too many parents believe whatever their child says no matter what.

My first year teaching, a few students felt empowered to complain about me to their parents. The parents got up in arms and complained to the Principal. I quickly had an activity that required a video camera and had the opportunity to video tape both my teaching and also those students behavior in my class. Once the parents saw the tape, I never got a single complaint since.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Janine,

An interesting article, touching on THE IMPACT OF NCLB ON EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP, appears on the NET site.

Here’s the link to it. look about mid page.

http://www.natedtaskforce.org/NCLBresponses/LeadershipNCLB_response.htm

By jim d

October 18, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

JM,

Allow me to point out that not even ALL educators agree. That SOME parents will tend to agree with differing views expressed by SOME educators. In your opinion does that make ALL those parents wrong?

By jim d

October 18, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Dare I try that link again?

http://www.natedtaskforce.org/NCLBresponses/LeadershipNCLB_response.htm

By jim d

October 18, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

ok let’s try it this way.

First part— http://www.natedtaskforce.org/NCLBresponses/Leadership

Second part— NCLBreponse.htm

By Janine

October 18, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

jim d…Can’t get to that link.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

I surrender,

if anyone wants to read the article you can place an underscore ahead of the N and after the B of NCLB.

Cut and paste the whole thing together.

By diva

October 18, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Education has three players on its team: student, parent and teacher.

By Lisa B.

October 18, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Got it jim d. Thanks!

By Grace

October 18, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Months ago I was listening to a radio show host who had planned to do his entire 4hr show about how under appreciated teachers are today. The first 3 calls were in support of teachers & what they go through especially in urban areas. The next 50 calls were parents bashing teachers. He lost control of his own show & turned it into, “THE REASON BLACK BOYS HAVE A 50% GRADUATION RATE IS BECAUSE THE TEACHERS DON’T CARE”

My best friend is a teacher. She is constantly telling me what she go through with parents. If single mothers are already depressed about bad choices they made in their life, it doesn’t take much to set them off to the point that they come up to the school & physically challange my friend. I see how uninformed my coworkers with kids are everyday. They can tell you everything that is going on in Beyonce, Jay-Z and Britney’s life, but can’t tell you anything that is going on in their community. It’s like they all got together & made up the same sorry universal excuse……..I DON’T WATCH THE NEWS CAUSE IT’S DEPRESSING”.

By Camille

October 18, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

I’m in my oldest son’s classroom so much (he’s in 4th grade) that when I hadn’t had time to visit this week, his teacher upon seeing me drop him off this morning said “Good morning. I haven’t seen you lately.” (with a smile, I must add). I make sure that I maintain contact with my children’s teacher, and since he is in a new school this year (he’s not attending a private school), I have been there a lot more often than I would have been before because I want to make sure that he is up to speed with the other students and make sure that I do get the teacher’s help with any issues that I may see that he is having. But, I try to be there at least once a week, to touch base with the teacher, but to also do some volunteer time. And, I must say, that I am so glad that we did have the opportunity to send him to private school because he has excelled at a much greater rate this year than my husband and I thought that he would, so he is doing so much better now than he did at the public school. Now, I am a very involved parent, but no matter how “good” his public teachers were, getting him through the school years were a struggle. And, to be honest, it may not necessarily be because of the teachers, but because of the school system and how the teaching has to be implemented. I see a huge difference in him now, in how he is actually excited to be at school, his teachers now spend the extra time during the day and after school to help the kids that need it, and most importantly, my son says that he is actually having fun while learning. And, I think that may be the biggest thing, is that at this school, the teachers are allowed to employ non-traditional methods to make sure that the kids learn the information, but to where they think that it’s fun. So, yes, it is a combination of the student, parents, and teachers that allows a student to succeed. But, without some changes in how learning actually takes place (and/or in how teachers are allowed to approach it), there may always be this parent versus teacher issue because for some of us, what is an educational system problem appears to be a teacher problem. And, unfortunately, the teachers may bear the brunt of it.

By HS Teacher Too

October 18, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

IMHO, before any parent complains about any teacher, they should be REQUIRED to sit in on that teachers class to really see what’s going on. Too many students are immature and quickly lie about a teacher to cover for their own short-comings (especially to their parents). And, too many parents believe whatever their child says no matter what.

Hmm. This cuts both ways. I once had administrators invite a parent to do exactly that, when her child was flat-out a disruption and distraction in my classroom and we all wanted to show the parent how mistaken she was about blaming me for her child’s issues. The plan was that she was going to spend three days in my room. The first day, we happened to be reviewing a quiz that the class had struggled with. The MOM asked EVERY student around her, “what did you get, what did you get?” Despite repeated attempts to get the class to quiet down and pay attention, it was the MOM who engaged the students around her in conversation, forcing them to choose between their friend’s mom and their teacher. She was MORE of a distraction than her son had been and what’s more, took the OPPOSITE message from what the day’s lesson was: I took time to do a much-needed review to get my class back on solid footing, reviewing and re-teaching material that required it. She interpreted it as “a lousy teacher and a lousy quiz,” and relayed her opinions to the 15-year olds around her. At my lunch break, I went STRAIGHT to the administrator who had arranged the whole thing, and said days two and three would NOT happen or I would call in sick. Apple, Tree.

My point is, this idea can just as easily backfire as it can work.

By Camille

October 18, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

That’s funny about the “excuse” of not watching the news because it’s depressing. However, I don’t watch the news either for the same reason, but I also don’t know much about the lives of any “celebrity.” I don’t watch the news because it is depressing, and I would prefer to hear more positive news stories than to hear about who got shot, raped, killed, stabbed, kidnapped, went to jail, went into rehab, lost their children, etc., all in the 1st 15 minutes of the news broadcast. But, the difference between I and the people being described is that I read. I read news sources online (from multiple sources), which allows me to select the stories that I would be interested in. So, I am still able to keep up-to-date on current events without having to listen to all the garbage that is being dished out these days as news. And, yes, I have kids, ages 9 and 2. Even my oldest son noticed that I don’t watch the news anymore and asked me why, and I gave him the same response. And, I won’t start watching again until the format changes.

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

Grace,

Thanks for hitting the nail on the head. The ‘new generation’ of parents are part of the ‘me’ generation. Note that these are NOT the same parents that are now in their 50s and beyond. These are parents where they come first and their kids fall way down on their list some where.

Their kids are after thoughts and they are very distant from their kids lives. If their kids fails a class or has some trouble (in school or otherwise) most seem to immediately blame any outside entity because of course it couldn’t be THEM or their kids.

Society, in addition, makes this difficult. Our economy is such that most households must have 2 incomes (father and mother must work). To make it more difficult, single-parent households mean that the parent is that much more busy.

Things can be tough….

By Mi, uh, Jones

October 18, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

I’ve taught for many years. When a parent is involved and supportive of the teacher, the student behaves better and tries harder. The parents who jump to the conclusion that the reason “little Joey” is failing is the teachers fault (and often voices that opinion in front of little Joey)are the ones whose children are a problem in class. And those are the parents complaining most of the time, publicly and often. Please, go sit in a classroom and witness that dealing with 28 students, who are at diffent learning levels, (some special ed., some gifted in the same class)who have various degrees of decent behavior is a difficult job. Then imagine doing that daily and having people complain about you! I say, why can’t I go to a parents office, call their boss, threaten them, then tell them how bad I think they are? Please, everyone is not a genius. Some of you have ill-behaved children. Don’t blame everyone in education for your bad parenting. Nine times out of ten, they had the same problems the year before, and the year before. And it’s MY fault???? Go figure.

And why would someone read Chaucer in their ed. program when they’ll be teaching 1st graders?

By teaching is not for cowards

October 18, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

As a FORMER high school foreign language teacher, whose teaching career lasted just four years due to bitter disillusionment and unbelievable pressure, I completely support the teacher who posted this topic. People have no earthly idea what is demanded of teachers and how little they have to work with - little support, little validation, little approval, not to mention the people they are working with. I would say most teachers went into the profession to make a difference in the lives of their students and the disappointment is beyond comprehension when the cold reality of what teaching is actually like hits them in the classroom. Remember GIGO - “garbage-in garbage-out”? You can only do your best with what you’re given to work with. The very first thing we learned in our education courses was that everyone and their brother, non-educators of course, are constantly trying to change public education, and does it ever really improve? No, of course not. The entire public education system in this country needs to be overhauled. It’s based on a decades-old model of respectful students in a classroom all coming from common values - you respected the teacher and went home and did your homework, and the parents were involved in and supported the process. This is somewhat different from what exists today. We should reduce class sizes, utilize computers and one-on-one more, and so much else. Anyone who points the finger of blame at teachers ought to try teaching and see if they can do it any better.

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher, Too

Good point. Luckily I haven’t had an experience like yours. Hopefully I will never have.

By decaturparent

October 18, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

Justme, I don’t think that parents believe that they are experts at education. What they do know is that they are experts on their own kids. Public school is designed to accommodate the lower middle of the classroom. That is only a small segment of students.

Often parents are unhappy because their kids are not lower middle and school policies and teaching practices do not fit them well.

Teachers are experts at educating the masses. They are not experts at educating my kid b/c they don’t know my kid like I do.

By Teacher, Too

October 18, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, but I wanted to ask you all- did any of you watch “Oprah” yesteray? She had Bill Cosby on- I didn’t get to watch all of the show, but I did read the recap on the Oprah website.

Okay - it’s off topic, and I apologize for that, but I think what he had to say was/is valid and important to all- parents, teachers, students, citizens…

On topic, though, I think we’ve been down this road many times. Teachers need to freedom to teach- not worry if an essential question is posted or if the standard is listed. (Funny how private schools have success without teachers having to post an EQ or a standard)

Parents need to parent. This includes making and sticking with tough decisions sometimes. Learn how to say “NO” and mean it.

Students need to be held accountable for their learning. If a child fails, let him/her fail. It’s a tough lesson, but passing a kid doesn’t do him/her any favors. Hard work brings rewards- students need to learn the value of hard work and overcoming challenges.

Finally, the school board and administrators need to get a backbone. Teachers and administrators need to have the authority to discipline when necessary. Parents may not always agree with the consequences, but that too can be a lesson.

Threatening lawsuits because you don’t like the way your child was disciplined (unless it’s illegal or involves duct tape) is silly.

Having said that, I wouldn’t mind a class-action lawsuit against NCLB for leaving behind the gifted kids and the high achieving kids. Probably not allowed, though.

We have the power to change education, but we must use our voices and our votes. Don’t like the way things are going, run for the school board. Get involved. Go to school board meetings. Effect change!

By jim d

October 18, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Teacher, Too

We have the power to change education

Not really. The reality is that meaningful change will only happen with freedom of choice. But then that’s another topic.

By Lynette

October 18, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

I am a hands on Mother. Too hands on for most. I have high expectations for my child and her educators. Ironically her 7th grade administrator was one of my teachers in Middle school.

My issue with a few educators I have run across is their penchant for promoting their own political, ethical, moral, religious, or social agenda. I feel teachers should adhere to the curriculum mandated by the school system.

By FultonTeacher

October 18, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

For the record, not all teachers were education majors. I have a degree in music, however I took education courses so I could teach. If you think music is an easy major, well, try it for yourself!

The African proverb “it takes a village” rings quite true in our society. It takes all of us working together to get kids on the track of success. I’m amazed how some of you actually berated education majors while in college. You obviously had too much spare time on your hands!

My kids teachers know me by face and name. I’ve met with them and discussed my kids progress. I am always available to them when it comes to my kids.

This is my final year teaching. I’ve had enough of the disrespect by kids of ALL socio-economic backgrounds. And the paperwork has gotten to be ridiculous. But you can bet that I will continue to support my kids and their teachers until graduation!

By HS Teacher Too

October 18, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

JustMe,

I should have prefaced my little anecdote, because other than pointing out the potential for backfire I agreed with what you were saying.

What I have taken to doing lately is to whip out my cell phone —or the student’s — and call the parents right then and there from the classroom. I ask them to explain to their parents why they don’t have their homework, etc. We may have talked about this last week on this blog, now that I am thinking about it — in any event, it heads-off the between-classes calls to parents so that I don’t end up with REACTIVE parent calls at the end of the day.

All this being said, how often does something like this happen? Maybe once a semester? Maybe? Sometimes not even. :)

By jim d

October 18, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Mi,

Not too sure I agree.

The parents who jump to the conclusion that the reason “little Joey” is failing is the teachers fault (and often voices that opinion in front of little Joey) are the ones whose children are a problem in class. And those are the parents complaining most of the time, publicly and often.

After being away from having children in school for 18 years and then starting over, I’ve been greatly disillusioned by Some of what I’ve seen in our schools with my current 13 years of re-involvement and have spoken out frequently both publicly and privately without it having affected my child’s behavior. I would also point out that if parental Silence were the magic tool, teachers would have few disruptive students in as much as most parents don’t get involved. (well according to this blog)

In this particular 13 year stretch I’ve witnessed Some teachers that were total incompetent boobs that had no business in a classroom and while management did manage to rid themselves of these supposed educators once their contracts expired, the children still suffered through for a year. That my friend is my beef; a lost year in just one subject can have a devastating affect on a child.

So how do we fix it and assure we have the best teachers money can buy? Here are a couple of thoughts.

Why don’t we spend some money training teachers, eliminate many of the testing requirements by going to a nationally normed test and eliminate the high stakes which cause teachers, or anyone else for that matter to teach to the test and fudge results that could adversely affect their job. Let’s encourage young people to go into teaching by providing a competitive salary base. Then let’s offer in school support for teachers.

We can in fact improve things if we have the intestinal fortitude to do what needs doing.

By parentof4

October 18, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

With four children I am still involved in all their classes. First I “test” my children when they come home, to see what they have learned. If I have any concerns then I would go and see the classroom. I had one child, who is quite, be passed in the class because he was not a disruption. When after my “testing” at home, he was not where I thought he should be the teacher told me “I will find out what he doesn’t know at the end of the year and then help him.” To me that is unacceptable. If he is lacking in some area, alert the parent and request extra help at home. Do not wait until the end of the year to tell me. Another child who was allowed to play dumb the entire year, took an extra year to get the DUMB out of him. So if you ask can teachers fail the kids. Yes, especially in the elementary school. But also if the parents are monitoring the school, since it is the parents responsibility to rear the children, this can be fixed. All teachers are not bad teachers, but not all people who past those written test should be teachers.

I understand that teaching is hard and underappreciated, but teachers need to try and work with the parents in the beginning. I never recceived a phone call about either boy. I had to stumble across this myself. Then after they are confronted about it, they consider us “problem” parents. I never stated that they cannot teach, I stated that they should have informed me in the beginning. That is why we have conferences. I write letters to the teachers all the time, just write one. Child having problems. End of Vent.

Yes I have been in a classroom and frequent them. But some teachers really cannot and should not teach. Just like some people should not be waiters, doctors, lawyers, police officers….

By mi, uh, jones

October 18, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

jimd, my point was, if your child is failing, and we have shown you we have “modified” over and over, without the authority to “modify”, such as SST’s, please don’t troll the community trashing your child’s teacher. I’ve had it happen to me and hear about it often. It’s discouraging. Yes, change the way we test, etc, etc. But parents, and I am one with school age children, PLEASE take responsibility for your by-products. Yes, we all concede to the fact that some teachers are bad. It is in no way a majority. I’ve taught in 3 different school systems, and have encountered many more good teachers than bad. But I’ve encountered the same bad behavior from parents in all three counties as well. I’m getting down to a basic classroom level, not testing practices and NCLB, and national scores. If my son’s teachers says he misbehaved, I’m on my son, not the teacher. If he has a bad grade, I am on him, not the teacher. I am simply pointing out that SOME parents are quick to point the finger at everyone but themselves and their children.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

And while I’m at it here’s a couple more.

And we might end the arbitrary and unrealistic AYP requirements used to punish schools not on track to having all students score “proficient” by 2014 and simply require yearly improvement for each student – a realistic goal that teachers can meet whatever their student’s test scores were at the beginning of the year. This would encourage more good teachers to work at the schools that need them most, and would relieve schools from being blamed for the low scores of a new student whose poor performance is no fault of theirs.

Bottom line: We need do more than merely tweak NCLB.

“Assessment FOR learning, as opposed to assessment OF learning, has produced some impressive gains in student achievement in other countries, and ought to be tried here.”

Ok, now I’m off my soap box.

By mi, uh, jones

October 18, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

And jim d, we spend much money training teachers. I go to a training session for how to take attendance, use a gradebook, write an essential question, use my standards, etc. I just finished my masters in ed (it was not a cake walk either) and I heard the same things. Trust me, teachers are well trained. But a human can put up with an a* for only so long. WHy is it SOOO hard to say, there are rude kids and parents, and they are the ones we listen to the most. I make good money, I get 16 weeks off a year. that’s not a complaint. The benefits we want most is better classroom environments.

Ok, I’m getting fired up! I’ve got to get off this blog! jim d, you too!

By mi, uh, jones

October 18, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Yes, NCLB is a joke.

And if you “stumble” onto your child’s grade….

ok, NOW i’m done.

By Tray

October 18, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

From my experiences, it has always been more of a parental issue than a teacher issue. In my highschool, i was able to tell which teachers cared and which didn’t. I had a history teacher who was actually a football coach, but since football isn’t an all day class, they gave him history to teach as well. Long story short, he sucked. I remember he had us write how Wesley Snipes started his acting career as a janitor in a studio. What the hell did that have to do with history?? Anyways, i can’t remember any bad teachers in my whole school life besides him. Yes, there were ones i didn’t like, but that didn’t mean they were bad teachers.

It boils down to the fact that if the parent(s) don’t care, neither will their kids. If a kid blames the teacher for a problem, and the parent does find out that the teacher has issues, you can have his class changed, even in the middle of the year if you raise enough hell and go public about it. Therefore, if there is a problematic teacher, change your child’s class or instructor. However, if you’re not involved in your children’s life, you’ll never know about that problematic teacher until it’s too late (ie: report card time). That’s could have been the teacher’s fault that your child failed, but because YOU WEREN’T INVOLVED, ultimately, that responsibility falls on you-THE PARENT.

For the record, i think teachers should have a hell of a lot more disciplinary power over the kids. They should be able to spank little ones, and in high school, if you’re disruptive, a nice smack on the face will shut you up!

By jim d

October 18, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry Tray, A teacher smacks my kid on the behind and he would get it again when he gets home—-Smack him in the face? Well, to be honest we’d have a bit of an issue.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

MI,

Before you go help me out here.

If teachers were allowed to really teach, rather than meet some bogus standard, would discipline possably become less of an issue because y’all would be able to engage students more? I rather think so.

By ab

October 18, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

jim d i like your style. to all of the parents that want to blame me for their childs failure, i will take the blame. however, you have to give me credit for all of the success that the successful children have. i can’t do that? so what many parents are saying is that if the child fails, it is my fault, but if the child is a success, it is the child’s doing?

By ironmaiden

October 18, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Decaturparent suggests that he/she is parentally enlightened. Wonderful!But unless they visit the classroom frequently, how many parents really know how their child performs with a large group of peers and another authority figure’s expectations? As a teacher, I’ve had many parents tell me that their teenaged child would NEVER be involved in the described behavior. How do I respond to that? Am I being called a liar?? Parents now have access to internet grade programs that can provide daily updates on their students’ performance. Many times a parent has insisted to me that a report card was never received. They had no idea Susie was failing until the end of the semester. And, of course, she must be given opportunities to replace all missing work. Administrators now mandate that teachers make several contacts per student per semester. What a great deal more time we’d have if parents would check on grades when they read their emails. The burden of responsibility has fallen so heavily on teachers that they no longer have enough quality preparation time. I may sound like I am making excuses - but I have left the profession as well!

By mi

October 18, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

jim d just gotta get that last word in…

I really don’t have a problem with standards. We know that what needs to be taught is taught, and that all students are getting basically the same info. It is a necessary evil. My problem is behavior. Ask any teacher. Your majority answer will be the same.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

AB,

I’ve spent a lot of time working with young men between the ages of 10-18. Many of them the same ones that give teachers fits, I’m sure.

What I’ve learned over the years is that keeping these young men occupied and challenged usually results in less disruption and to be quite frank I’ve seen them become quite successful as leaders.

By NICK

October 18, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

If you want good teachers you have to “pony up the bucks” and send them to private school.

Public schools will hire anyone with a degree, which does not mean much these days………

By jim d

October 18, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

The bogus standards I refer to are sub par standards. Teaching to the middle or lower end of a class.

I feel pretty confident that most teachers would also agree that it isn’t the dumb students that are most frequently disruptive, it is as often as not kids of relatively high intelligence.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Right you are Nick. But leave us not forget to mention that teachers in private schools don’t even need a degree.

By ab

October 18, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

jim d

i completely agree. my motto/saying everyday is let’s go teach the kids. that has worked for me for the better part of a decade or so.

By HS Teacher Too

October 18, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

jimd, “If teachers were allowed to really teach, rather than meet some bogus standard, would discipline possably become less of an issue because y’all would be able to engage students more? I rather think so.”

I agree, from experience. Forget the standards argument and just go to common sense: An engaged student is too busy to get into trouble.

But we can engage students and still meet (even bogus) standards.

By HS Teacher Too

October 18, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

jimd,

I’ll agree with you AGAIN today and offer this: it’s often (not always) BORED kids who are disruptive. And who is bored? The kid who doesn’t get it, and won’t get it, and doesn’t belong in the class; the kid who doesn’t get it, and won’t get it, because s/he is un-prepared; and the kid who gets it, got it two weeks ago, and belongs in a class that is more appropriately challenging.

By high school teacher

October 18, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

For example, instead of Chaucer’s tales, ed majors are often taking “Kiddie Lit”…Other students often make quite a bit of fun of ed majors.

While I stayed away from Chaucer’s tales, I took “Shakespeare: Part I” and “Shakespeare: Part II,” “Restoration and 18th Century Drama,” “The History of the English Language,” “Early American Literature,” “Early American Poetry,” and “The Twentieth Century Novel” before I ever got to “kiddie lit” and the first education course. I only have a bachelor’s degree, but this was the required program for my English Ed degree at UGA - 7 content classes, 8 education classes, 4 of which were English education.

Knowing content does not make one a good teacher. The worst math teacher I have ever seen was a Ga Tech grad with no education background (took the Praxis and passed).

Granted, my study time was not the same as my roommate who was a genetics major, but that doesn’t mean the she is smarter than I am. She has different areas of interest.

Incompetent and lazy students don’t succeed in an education program either.

By mom3boys

October 18, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Last year I met with a parent to discuss her son’s performance. Although very bright, he had D’s and U’s in every class. I suggested she remove the computer, TV, video games, electric guitar, iPod, and cell phone from his room until such a time that his grades improved. The mom said to me, “I can do that?”

Most students who are performing poorly do not care about school. Some of them are from homes where education is not valued. Some of them are from homes where they are not valued. Most, however, are from homes where the parents are not in control; the kids are. Parents, if you do not know how to have authority over a 13 year old, you have bigger problems than a D in algebra!

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

HS II,

So how do we get around the standard of teaching “a” today and “b” the next day when some students are already at “C”? Got any ideas that sped folks wouldn’t kick up a fuss over?

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

jim d-

I have no problem with extending help to teachers that need help. But do NOT have blanket ‘staff development’ where ALL teachers have to sit through crap.

Also, if it is your idea to help struggling teachers, why don’t you also have the idea to help stuggling parents? Should you also be in favor of requiring “bad” parents take classes on how to parent?

You have to either be in favor of both or neither, right?

By L.King

October 18, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Great posting everyone. I wanted to wrie this blog for a long time. I did not write the blog to blame anyone, just like one blogger mentioned education invloves three people, the teacher, student and parents. I am so sorry for the parents and students who may have had bad teachers. But from my experience, I have seen far more good to great teachers. To the blogger who mentioned that education classes are not hard! That is the kind of comment that divides our educational society. As a education major we have take classes that relates to the level of sudent we will be teaching. Primary education majors have to take children literature classes so they can teach a child how to interpret and analyze literature! Secondary ed major are more content driven because we have to be master’ in our craft. Once again I appreciate everyone that chimed in for good conversation. The point of the blog is to bridge the gap between the parents, students and teachers. Teacher we have to make sure that we are handling our business and prepared everyday to teach our students! We own them that! Parent, all educators want is for you t0 probe the mind of your child to ensue that the lesson extends to home. And Students we need for you to open your minds and let that great body of knowledge led you to great things. I believe this can occur, so teachers I salute you !

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

HS teach

Knowing content does not make one a good teacher.

AMEN The smartest mathmatican I ever met couldn’t teach. Granted he only lasted one year, but what a year of h3LL at home assuring the kid got what he needed. That and a lot of tutoring from one of his previous math teachers.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Then there was a math teacher comming to public schools after many many years of teaching private school. (another near disaster) Gifted students barely scraping by but scoring in the 90% on nationally normed tests. That one didn’t last either.

By forsythparent

October 18, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

it would be nice if the adminstrations welcomed parents with open arms, but in forsyth county— that rarely happens.

and often— we are prevented from visiting the classroom.

but we do talk to the teachers anyway.

teacher/parent communication is critical despite what the educrats want you to believe.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

JM,

Struggling parents deserve what they’ve raised. As far as I’m concerned they’re on their own.

I worked through it with one of mine that ended up going back for a GED and has only changed jobs once in 15 years. Went from an assistant editor of a (major) city magazine to an auditor for an acounting firm that performs many government audits.

If I got through it —- They can too.

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

decaturparent -

I will not address YOU and YOUR child. But I can say with absolute certainty that not ALL parents are experts with THEIR child.

Besides, even if you know your child, you likely do NOT know the various pedagogies available. And, you likely do NOT know developmental issues regarding learning. These are the types of things that are taught in education courses in college and unless you took those (or learned them on your own) then I do not believe that you know those.

You know your child, okay, fine. I challenge that you likely do not know anything beyond that (unless you are omnipotent).

By JustMe

October 18, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

mom3boys -

You are right on with your last post!!!!!!

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

OMG,

Reckon how parents without a collge degree can ever learn thar yunguns anythang?

By jim d

October 18, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Is that a bit of confidence you are showing or arrogance?

By b white

October 18, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

First - If it ain’t broken don’t fix it!!! Education in America was excellent until 1971, but someone tried to fix it! In 1971 integration caused two high schools to become one. I graduated from high school in 1972 with police officers in the hallways. We were forbidden to speak in the halls, and all extracurricular activities were stopped. That was it!!! It’s been going down hill ever since. Now it’s too late.

By catlady

October 18, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

Decaturparent—I am sure you DO know your child. A teacher should draw upon the wealth of knowledge you have. I think you should realize, however, that you don’t know your child in the same way the teacher does—as a vital member of a group of students. When you have a few children at home, the dynamics are quite different from when your child is one of 25 or 30, all with sometimes complimentary but frequently quite contrasting needs and abilities. (For example, your child thrives on abstract, creative activites but most of the class needs hands on, concrete instruction). Quite often the home environment can be adapted to suit the personalities and strengths of the few children. At school it is quite a different story.Times 28 or 30.

I have had the experience that WHEN I can get a parent into my room to observe, their attitude/perceptions undergo quite a change. For the observation (and parents are welcome anytime, but if they are disruptive they are removed), I set the parameters (not interacting with other students, for example). So far (34 years) I have never had a parent who did not leave telling me that they now understand what I was saying. However, it has become increasingly difficult to get parents to come into the school and stay with us. I’d like a way to remedy that. It would not help 100% of the time, because frequently the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, but I have seen that parents tend to believe everything Johnny says, and parents don’t have a clear vision of what is expected and how woefully inadequate their child’s work is, until they stay with us awhile.

One of the greatest gifts a parent gives his/her child is being involved with the school life, and supporting it; questions to be asked adult to adult outside the child’s hearing, with open minds and a positive attitude. I can work with almost anybody to help their child, if that is what they really WANT.

By jim d

October 18, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Cat,

I’m with you. Personally in this day with the technology we possess every classroom should be available via webcams to parents at all times. It would be a simple matter to do so. Privacy? not an issue give parents a password good for their students class whenever said student is there.

This is something I’d love to see. Opening communications and offering both students and teachers a little more security.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

October 18, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this

When LKing says teachers aren’t the “sole” reason students aren’t doing well, LKing is being FAR too generous to the administration of APS.

Maybe APS teachers could implement those “best practices” Hall and co. like to spout about if they weren’t having to deal with physical assaults on students AND STAFF that Hall and company pretend don’t exist by FALSIFYING the data.

The South Atlanta teachers, according to APS, had ZERO incidents of violence, but the cops were called to the school over FIFTY times. Maybe the cops were interested in seeing those “best practices”. Or maybe the PTA had a WEEKLY donut sale.

Or maybe someone is lying because they KNOW the AJC isn’t going to follow it up.

By MannyT

October 18, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this

As a Junior Achievement volunteer, I get to visit several classes in my kids’ school 5 times each.

My biggest concern about the classroom is indirectly the teachers. I was in my kids grade over 30 years ago. However,the classroom looks far too familiar to me. Aside from the teacher’s laptop (and the clothes), it could be the 1970s.

With all of the newer technology that we use in the world, why isn’t classroom education more modern? I do not expect teachers to become the geek squad, but it would be great if the school systems could help them to integrate common technology into lessons. It could be using a cell phone to teach a concept or flashing the internet on a screen with a kid looking up some interesting information in preparation for a field trip.

By Ronda

October 18, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

I am in private school and even then I see some of the laziness that some parents have. For example…every year we give a manual about the class…sort of a yellow pages. It is by no means a war and peace. We actually manage to get down what you need to know within 3 pages typed with large font. It describes such things as if your child is the leader of the week, they bring snack. This is also written in a monthly calendar we send home and reiterated on parents night. It is also a school wide policy and this child has been at the school several years. Well, a stay at home mom didn’t send snack and in a note said she didn’t know that this was the policy.

Another instance, a parent asked me what they could do extra with their child because they didn’t work with them but did with the older child (it should be embarassing to even admit that to a teacher). Each week I send home letter books with extra pages for extra reinforcement work. In the beginning of the year I stated that the books go home with the last page highlighted of the pages you can work with to help you child with classwork. It was obvious that the parent didn’t read my oh so short note.

How can you be involved and in tune as a parent if you can’t read a few notes sent home that keep you abreast of school?

Some parents also have high expectations of how much time you can dedicate to little Johnny to do trivial things such as reminding him to put his ziploc snack container in his cubby when he is done everyday. I spend the entire day either teaching, working on art projects, cleaning up, disciplining or getting ready for the next day. Its laughable that as teachers we get desks since we rarely get to sit at them.

Each day I check my own child’s folder for any notes from the teacher and if the teacher tells me my child misbehaved - I am going to discuss it with my child. Not run up on the teacher assuming they were to blame. Teachers don’t always get it right when addressing classroom problems, just like some co-workers and bosses don’t but you have to decide that you as the parent will be the adult and go through the proper channels.

By MannyT

October 18, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

link for jimd 10:30-11 AM post

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

jim d-

OMG, read my post again. Maybe you will comprehend a sentence that I wrote that goes something like, “These are the types of things that are taught in education courses in college and unless you took those (or learned them on your own) then I do not believe that you know those.”

Maybe you should consider a reading course in college?

By V for Vendetta

October 19, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

Yikes Jim!?

Cameras in classrooms? That’s a scary thought. Of course, then you’d say “what do you have to hide?”

Right?

Well, I don’t disagree with the concept in theory, but I’d be afraid such a practice would open a floodgate, one that we would have a difficult time stopping. How long would it take before cameras started popping up all over the place? Privacy laws get bent, molded, broken, and trampled. Scary thought, indeed.

Also, it would be logistically impossible. You’d have to have a consent form signed by every single kid’s parents in the school before it could be put into practice, and that would never happen.

The “what do you have to hide” argument scares the heck out of me. It’s just that type of argument that will lead us into an Orwellian state. Careful what you wish for.

Although, just to clear things up, I DO see what you’re saying JimD — in theory. Trust me, some days I WISH I had a camera in the class. It would work both ways! :-)

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 8:39 AM | Link to this

jim d-

Is it arrogant for a doctor to state that he has been college trained to treat your illness? Is it arrogant for a lawyer to state that he has been college trained to handle your law suit?

If you answer yes, then fine - I am arrogant.

By jim d

October 19, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

V,

They are already recorded in the hallawys at almost every school so I’m not sure your argument holds water.

Web cams in the classroom still sound like a good idea to protect teachers as well as allowing parents to pop in to watch their own childrens actions when they are not around. I firmly believe this would eliminate a good deal of disruption.

By OldSchool

October 19, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

JustMe: In addition to the college training, your doctor has quite a bit of hands-on experience under the watchful (I hope) eyes of other professionals. And don’t lawyers work in law offices in preparation for taking the bar exams?

Maybe that’s what I like about CTAE. We come from industry where we’ve learned/honed our craft. We undergo intensive training in lesson planning and classroom management and are paired with an experienced mentor instructor.

A classic school-book education provided me with a set of “tools” but the real world experiences I had in industry gave me the opportunity to refine, perfect, adapt, and develop those “tools”.

I am very fortunate in that many of my students’ parents do feel comfortable enough to drop by my classroom (announced and unannounced after checking in with the main office.) My students know it doesn’t bother me a bit and most barely even react to the door opening. I’m also very lucky to have some of those parents providing amazing opportunities for expanding the skill set my program provides. For example, one student is working for an area molding/trim company as a designer and he’s only a junior. Company reps are in and out and other students are beginning to take notice and work a little harder. We update our small town’s utility maps, keep cemetery maps up to date, and provide plans for small churches and home builders…all with the understanding that it is student work and needs professional oversight.

If I was not so open to parents and industry folk coming into my lab, my program would not be as dynamic and ever-changing as it is. C’mon down and visit us!

By jim d

October 19, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Is it arrogant to insinuate that some parents don’t know how to teach their kids and then state that even a dedicated parent that blogs here regularly isn’t capable unless they’ve taken college courses or the equivalent.

Yes indeed that comes across as a wee-bit arrogant.

By FCM

October 19, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

Yes I have. I went and read to a class this week. I did it on my ‘lunch hour’. Best lunch I did in a long time. I will do it again soon.

By Janine

October 19, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

jimd and others re: the “camera in the classroom”. There are quite a few private schools who do have cameras in the classrooms. Parens are give the site and the password and can tune in to the stream anytime.

By Janine

October 19, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

jimd and others re: the “camera in the classroom”. There are quite a few private schools who do have cameras in the classrooms. Parents are given the site and the password and can tune in to the stream anytime.

By jim d

October 19, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

Janine,

Like I said, I don’t see where it would be a bother. Well other than to the teachers that spend their day blogging instead of teaching, If you know what I mean.

By Lee

October 19, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

L King asks: “Why do so many people have negative feelings about teachers?”

I would say that it is not teachers per se, but the general state of public education.

Look at how many private schools have cropped up over the past twenty years. There is a reason for that.

We, the GOOD parents, are tired. We are tired of:

• Sending our well-prepared, well-adjusted student off to school, only to have them sit idly by while the teacher tries to deal with the special ed student still in a diaper, the meth-head baby who is tearing the room apart, the illegal alien who can’t speak a lick of English, and the ADD/ADHD acronym du jour.

• Hearing about principals who hide behind insane rules and regulations while they suspend honor students and Eagle Scouts for Tweety Bird keychains, Swiss Army knives in the glovebox of their car, camp axes in the bed of a pickup truck, and Midol in a pocketbook.

• Hearing about teachers and principals who will not retain a student, but rather passes them on from grade to grade.

• Reading about teachers having intimate relations with a student.

• Reading about PE teachers with Phd’s making $90k per year, while the science lab sits idle because they can’t afford supplies.

• Our Honor Grads going off to college and nearly flunking out because of rampant grade inflation.

Need I go on?

Sadly, I don’t think it’s hit rock bottom yet.

By V for Vendetta

October 19, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

Good point Jim, we DO have a lot of cameras in the halls. I wish that weren’t the case. But they are there to provide for the safety of the students and teachers in the school.

Again, I see your point, but I fear that such a practice would open a floodgate of undesirable consequences.

On a lighter note, it doesn’t mean that bad teachers will change, either. Have you seen how many people do dumb things on camera!?

By Janine

October 19, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

I have discussed the “parents involvment in the school” issue with friends and colleagues of my generation [I’m retired} so many times. Everyone agrees….’Back in the day’, at least in our day and experience, parents were almost never in the school and rarely discussed what went on at school with their children, other than “how was school today”, which elicited the traditional “okay” from the kids. HOwever, the kids knew that school was important and knew that if a teacher ever called their parent or if their parent ever had to interupt their day [even though most mothers did not work outside the home] to go to school, it would “hit the fan” for the kid. This was true of one parent homes as well as two parent homes. Do any of you posting here remember it that way? Were your parents “involved” other than with their expectations and/or attitude? Can you pinpoint the time when the parental involvment [ meaning more than expectations and attitude toward education] became expected/necessary/encouraged.

Just an aside. My school had many Asian students whose parents we were never able to get in touch with [we were required to contact parents of even excellent students]. The students told us they were always working late into the night and that we couldn’t contact them. Yet, these students were usually among our most conscientious and high achieving students. No parental involvment at all…just parental expectations.

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

jim d-

You said that I, “state that even a dedicated parent that blogs here regularly isn’t capable unless they’ve taken college courses or the equivalent”

Where do you get off saying that this is what I did? I did not! Show me where I said this? You cannot because I NEVER said such a thing. You continuously mis-read posts and that is why I recommnended for you to take a reading course.

By Lee

October 19, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Janine, re “Back in the day.”

I graduated in ‘76 and cannot recall my parents ever coming to the school for a conference or any other reason.

I think there were some expectations by my parents back then. They expected me to do my work and they expected the school to do their jobs.

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Re: cameras in the classroom.

This is so timely. I recently advised a new teacher to video tape their classes. Why? To show parents and the administration what is really going on. The kids are telling their parents lies on this new teacher, and the parents are then running directly to the administration to complain. It seems that video tape is the only ‘proof’ that is reasonable to support this poor new teacher. Sad, but true. The video tape will show both the behavior of the students and will also show the lessons by the teacher. It will show the good and bad of both the students and teacher.

I find it very sad that the parents do not support this new teacher. I find it even more sad that the administration does not support this new teacher.

There are cameras in the hallways of my school. The problem is that they rarely work and the school is too cheap to fix them.

By Lee

October 19, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

JustMe, maybe the kidS (emphasis on the plural) are telling the truth.

Think about it.

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I would also expect that your parents trusted the teachers and supported them as well. This happens rarely these days it seems….

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Lee,

You made great points on your post of 10:04 AM. However, I would suggest rather than yanking the kid out of public school and pay big money for private school, the GOOD parents should run for the school board, attend meetings, meet with Principals, and do whatever is needed to change things.

With GOOD parents running away, there is no one left to ‘fight the fight’ on the parent side. GOOD teachers are truely hand-cuffed in trying to make any real changes.

We (public schools) need you!

By jim d

October 19, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

JM,

Perthaps you should re-read what you wrote at 4:42 yesterday

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Won’t the video tape prove this, then?

By Lee

October 19, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

JustMe, we did try to fight the system. Unfortunately, it got to the point where we had to decide to pay money to a lawyer or pay money to a private school. We chose the latter.

As a side note, about a year after our dustup, the Superintendent was allowed to retire to “pursue other opporunities” and the principal, after having lost his golfing buddy and air cover, didn’t renew his contract and slinked off to another school system.

Unfortunately, the system doesn’t want to change unless you can get about 50-100 parents to pack the board meeting. Right now, the only person who can mobilize that many people is the president of the athletic booster club.

You have to remember Government Schools = Government Bureaucracy.

By Janine

October 19, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Just one more aside re the camera thing. It was often difficult for me to hide my laughter at some of the things my middles school students said and did… I used to tell them oftne that I really wished that we could have a video camera in my classroom and we would all be rich…because we could send one in to that show “World’s Funniest Videos” every week and without question we would win every week! They would offer to bring their own, begged to do it….I told them I would be sued and fired.They said they would bring notes from their parents.

One of my favorites : after a lengthy explanation of an assignment, with numerous examples, and after asking 2 or 3 times if everyone understood, if there were any questions, inevitably after everything was quiet for a minute or two, someone would speak up and say , “Now what did you say?”…The others would stop and look in asonishment….This was one of those video moments when it was hard not to see the humor…..This is Middle school!!!! nothing to get mad about, just the mind of the 7th grader is hard to focus sometimes.

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

Lee, Maybe it was BECAUSE of your dustup that the superintendent was “allowed to retire.”

Although I understand your decision to send your child to private school, it nonetheless saddens me. Public schools need involved and concerned parents like you so that we can make things better. Reasonable, logical, involved parents have more say-so than most realize. I have seen it in action at my school and my school has improved because of it.

By ironmaiden

October 19, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Regarding video cameras: School buses are equipped. My husband recently started driving the kiddos, and he frequently reviews the tapes. Several kindergarteners have been suspended so far - biting their seatmates, hanging arms out window, pushing into aisles. Yes, some parents were furious, but the tapes don’t lie. Parents do you really know your children??

Jim D - It is refreshing to enjoy a blog w/o the ravings of Jeff. Perhaps your occasional absence would be euphoric.

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

jim d-

This is what I wrote at 4:42 yesterday….

“I will not address YOU and YOUR child. But I can say with absolute certainty that not ALL parents are experts with THEIR child.

Besides, even if you know your child, you likely do NOT know the various pedagogies available. And, you likely do NOT know developmental issues regarding learning. These are the types of things that are taught in education courses in college and unless you took those (or learned them on your own) then I do not believe that you know those.

You know your child, okay, fine. I challenge that you likely do not know anything beyond that (unless you are omnipotent).”

Exactly where in those words do you see that I “state that even a dedicated parent that blogs here regularly isn’t capable unless they’ve taken college courses or the equivalent” as you described?

Again, you are persistent in your folly. Time to give it up, dude! Go take a reading course, already!!

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Janine - That is a common myth about video taping. A teacher can video tape students perfectly within the law without getting parental permission or even student permission (or administrator permission for that matter). However, a teacher cannot take that tape and publish it (such as send it to “World’s Funniest Videos” or even post it on the web) without permission.

By V for Vendetta

October 19, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

ironmaiden,

LOL, you didn’t really just compare Jim to Jeff did you? JimD might make some people a little hot under the collar, but I think it’s a FAR cry from Jeff threatening to beat everyone up. I’m sure Jeff is on his honeymoon right now, probably beating up the seagulls for constantly making noise or something … .

By JustMe

October 19, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta,

Is it possible that you hit on something? Could jim d and Jeff be the same person? Just a thought…

By thomas

October 19, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Personally I think that most of the parents who complain about teachers and schools have NOTHING to complain about. Many of these people who complain are middle class (or at the very minimum, working class) and their children have access to the best schools in the country. The argument over who is may be sitting next to their child in class or what they heard about a teacher in another state on the news is trifling. They spent their energy and voice griping about silly nonsense.

Let’s hear them complain about the 5,000 trailers they have in their district. Instead they will gripe about what day school starts on, given the fact that the children have been out of school ALL SUMMER LONG. TWO WHOLE MONTHS.

The people who do have something REALLY have something to complain about are the poor, working class, and lower middle class families. These people are served by the worst schools. First of all- the children are treated like crap. Like inhuman garbage. This treatment is reserved for black and Hispanic children mostly, very few whites. Their needs are seldom taken into consideration. Teachers could care less if these children learned anything or grew as persons. Most of these witches just work in these schools to get their foot in the door and after a year or two they’re gone. Funny thing is that when these witches leave the school, they are no more a better teacher than they were when they came in. This is because they didn’t TEACH while they were there or try to LEARN more about their trade. The others just want a easy paycheck.

I have had the sad misfortune of working in high minority schools during my teaching career. Because of what I do, most of the students I serve are minorities, hence the reason I work in schools with higher percentages of minorities. I have seen some of the worst things perpetrated by teachers and administrators. Things that you would NEVER see in a white upper middle class school. The place I work at now is like a plantation. It is almost as bad as the prison (school) I used to work at. Do you know we have children from kindergarten to fifth grade who soil themselves because teachers will not allow them to use the restroom? It happens on a regular basis here, but for the adults, life goes on.

Imagine what kind of instruction and teaching takes place at a place like that. But the parents here are non existent. I was walking down the hallway after school just recently and saw a parent and her son in a teacher’s classroom. It dawned on me that I NEVER see parents here at this school.

I believe that parents are not welcomed at lower SES (socio economic schools) and in fact encouraged, cajoled, and forced to stay away from school. The doors are not open to parent involvement. The presence of the parent is only desired when a student is misbehaving.

If you could only see what goes on in some of America’s classrooms. Blasphemous. It would make your blood curdle. It could make you angry. It could make you cry.

Our future is thrown away like garbage and nobody cares.

By jim d

October 19, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

V,

I wonder if it’s ok to tell someone Bite ME on this blog?

By Vicki

October 19, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

V for V - You know Jeff and jim d are two totally different guys. jim d makes me think and Jeff just pis*es me off with his holier than thou attitude. Besides the sea gulls, you know he’s kicking the crabs and the dogs off the beach.

Have a great weekend!

By Ernest

October 19, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

I detected a LOT of anger in your posting but in fairness, I have not walked in your shoes. Touching on one of the points your raised about teachers at schools with a lower SES, I’ve observed many of the new teachers are well intentioned however are not prepared for some of the social and discipline challenges they face. In yesterday’s USA Today (10/18), there was a mentioned of a young teacher at a Charlotte school that is succeeding despite the SES of the school All USA Teachers I have seen both cases, teachers trying their best despite challenges the face and those that seemed to have resigned themselves to the fact they cannot make a difference. Honestly, I’ve seen much more of the former than the latter.

I personally try to visit one of my children’s school at least once a month and as my schedule permits, I try to visit another ES in the area. IMO, ESs seem to appreciate volunteers more. I’ve been to some schools in which I did not feel welcome yet I insisted on performing observations (making sure I did not affect instruction) or helping in some way. There were some that thought I was an oddity, a male in the community offering to volunteer for a few hours. In all cases, I got something out of it and hope the schools felt the same.

JustMe:

I’ve blogged with JimD for quite a while. I can assure you that he and Jeff are not the same person. :)

By Ernest

October 19, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

I detected a LOT of anger in your posting but in fairness, I have not walked in your shoes. Touching on one of the points your raised about teachers at schools with a lower SES, I’ve observed many of the new teachers are well intentioned however are not prepared for some of the social and discipline challenges they face. In yesterday’s USA Today (10/18), there was a mentioned of a young teacher at a Charlotte school that is succeeding despite the SES of the school All USA Teachers I have seen both cases, teachers trying their best despite challenges the face and those that seemed to have resigned themselves to the fact they cannot make a difference. Honestly, I’ve seen much more of the former than the latter.

I personally try to visit one of my children’s school at least once a month and as my schedule permits, I try to visit another ES in the area. IMO, ESs seem to appreciate volunteers more. I’ve been to some schools in which I did not feel welcome yet I insisted on performing observations (making sure I did not affect instruction) or helping in some way. There were some that thought I was an oddity, a male in the community offering to volunteer for a few hours. In all cases, I got something out of it and hope the schools felt the same.

JustMe:

I’ve blogged with JimD for quite a while. I can assure you that he and Jeff are not the same person. :)

By ironmaiden

October 19, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Okay, jimd, maybe I was a bit harsh. Thomas - Can’t speak for younger kids, but many of the HS students from a particular social subgroup are barely teachable, when you can even get their attention. And they often require a level of emotional support that is too demanding to be consistently provided by anyone not vying for sainthood. Hence the burnout. Don’t blame teachers for not being Joan of Arc. I know my own four teenagers were often neglected because I was totally drained. Net loss for family; net gain for society??

By thomas

October 19, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Until you actually go to a low SES school and stay awhile, you have no idea of what it is like. This goes for elementary, middle, and high school. I have visited middle schools that are regularly on “lockdown”. Isn’t “lockdown” a prison term? So you mean that schools with large numbers of blacks and hispanics are really little prisons?

The question I have for most people is “do you really care?” That is the question one must ask when having discussions like this. Otherwise it is pointless to debate this.

By thomas

October 19, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Ironmaiden,

What you make not be aware of is that the problems start in elementary school. Children get turned off towards school and learning as early as second grade. Elementary school is where development of bad attitudes begins. Black youth usually get bad attitudes first, then the Latino kids. By the time these children get to fifth grade, then are in serious trouble both attitude wise, behaviorally, and academically.

Many teachers are not trained to teach/interact with minority youth. The reality is that many of these children do not come from upper middle class homes and home reinforcement and support of academic achievement and American middle class values, mores, customs, and culture. In fact many youth come to school speaking languages other than English and from homes where English is not spoken.

Now you have mostly young white females, with middle class values and expectations, coming to a school where they DON’T REALLY WANT TO BE. They come in and at the first bump in the road, they’re hands are up. It’s not entirely their fault. THE COLLEGES OF EDUCATION FAILED THESE PEOPLE AND OUR SCHOOLS. I WILL SAY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AGAIN- THE COLLEGES OF EDUCATION FAILED THESE PEOPLE AND OUR SCHOOLS.

They rammed liberal dogma and so-called “progressive” education theories (like whole language, “new math”, invented spelling, no textbooks, open classrooms, brain based learning, etc.) down our throats to the detriment of millions of children. Now tens of millions of children can’t read, write, spell, do basic math, or know basic history.

It’s just a tragedy all around. But the question is- Do we blame the victim (the children) for our mistakes?