Get Schooled

By mamaknowsbest

October 9, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Exactly, how did the graduation rate go from 39% to 68% in five years. Must be doing some magic. I hear other systems are doing some similar magic. I think the citizens of Georgia should be a little skeptical about the value of a high school diploma now-a-days. Don’t think it is worth the paper it’s printed on. Check out how many students are taking remedial courses in college- this will tell you a lot about the diploma. Check out how many current graduates can get a job and keep it w/skills and knowledge gained in high school.

By cara

October 9, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Why is this school district losing pupils if the schools are doing so well? It seems that things may not be as they seem.

By jim d

October 9, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but it would stand to reason that with declining enrollment figures, graduation rates would increase. Ga. computes grad rates based upon the number of students entering high school four years prior to each sr. class graduating. (which is pretty bogus in itself) And unless I’m mistaken they count GED’s as completion. Thus scewing the picture further

What needs to be implemented is a method of tracking each student throughout HS to attain a truer picture of what is happening.

As for the Atlanta BOE—no one ever claimed they were rocket scientists! Anyone with even a bit of intelligence would never run for the position.

By Dana @ DOE

October 9, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Jim d,

The graduation rate computation is basically the number of students who receive a full diploma (tech or CP certification) divided by the number of all students who complete (full diplomas, certificates of completion, special ed diploma, etc) plus the number of students who dropped out each of the past four years.

GEDs are NOT included (we don’t even administrate that program — it’s the Department of Technical and Adult Education). Neither are certificates of completion or special ed diplomas.

The “system” you talk about has been implemented. By 2010 or 2011, we shoudl have our first “cohort” graduation rate.

By jim d

October 9, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Dana,

Glad to hear it. I think it is long over-due. Has the issue of students moving out of district or state been addressed or will the numbers remain scewed?

By jim d

October 9, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Dana,

just out of curiousity. How are the figures arrived at for the number of students that dropped out over the previous 4 years? Is it basically a head count or are individual students tracked into other systems?

By mamaknowsbest

October 9, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

What is more important- the number of diplomas issued by the school/ state or the quality of the diplomas issued?

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

October 9, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

Falsified Discipline Data: Documented Physical assaults on teachers with no consequence to the students: Documented MASSIVE waste and mismanagement: Documented Repeated violations of teachers’ right to tribunal upon being physically assaulted by students: Documented Evidence of widespread, systemic cheating: Documented Abysmal test scores (despite the documented cheating): Documented

Yet the voters of Atlanta continue to vote for board members who not only tolerate this kind of performance, but actually reward it.

Thus one can conclude the citizens of Atlanta get the schools (and the unfortunate byproduct of said schools) that they fully and richly deserve.

As others pointed out, the free market is usually the best indicator of what is “spin” and what is reality. And despite gains in population, enrollment is dropping. Can’t spin that.

Eventually the truth comes out.

By 5th yr in HELL

October 9, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

aps teacher here- typing from my school issued laptop! I feel that Ms. hall is doing as best she can with the situation she inherited. I do beleive that some of those numbers are skewed. I also feel that the reason for so many less students is because of the DINKs, which I was called at a faculty meeting last year. Double Income, No Kids. The city is regentrifying, or moving the poor out so the rich can move closer to teir jobs an a nightlife. it’s not my student’s parents buying the $400,000 condos springing up all around my school….good luck Clayton Co.

By Ernest

October 9, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Cara raises a good point @ 10:12. It is a known fact that ATL is reducing the amount of low income housing in the core city with many of those residents moving to the outlying counties. Some may recall Clayton Commissioner Bell raising an issue about this recently. I don’t want to define anyone by their socioeconomic status however you can’t ignore this fact.

JimD’s idea is a good one. Tracking the child beginning at Pre-K with regards to the public schools they attend should shed some insight. At the end of the day, if the foundation is provided early on, it makes it hard for teachers in the later years to build upon it.

By SHENIKA

October 9, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

ME AN MY BABY DADDY BE MET WIF DAT MISRIS HALL ONCET CAUSE MY OLDES BABY HABCAUSED A STURBANCE AT HE SCOOL SHE NASTY

By Hugo

October 9, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Graduation rates and completion rates are not the same thing. GED’s are not included in graduation rates. It is determined by four years of high school and a traditional diploma after those four years. If a student finishes high school in five years or into their 20’s it does not count in the graduation rate figures. If Atlanta has increased its graduation from 39% to 68% that is remarkable. I always wondered what was supposed to be so great about the lady now I know.

By Dana @ DOE

October 9, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Jim d,

They are reported by the school when they drop out. As for out of state students, the new system will be able to track that.

Good questions.

By jim d

October 9, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

dana,

thats most EXCELLENT. how about if they enroll in a ged class?

By Pompano

October 9, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Jim d raises an excellent issue that Dana does not address. Did the number of students actually graduating each year double or thru fuzzy math did the number of students classified as “dropouts” get reduced?

I also suspect that Atlanta nuking the Public housing and sending the residents out of the city had more to do w/the statistical changes. Remember how the good old Atlanta Police dept manipulated their numbers is years past?

By jim d

October 9, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

I must agree. that the ever changing socio-economic culture of the city is playing a larger role in these improvements in education than anyone in power would like to admit.

Couple that with the growing number of private schools in fulton and dekalb co. which now total more than 60 and we can account for both the improved grad rates as well as the declining public school populace.

So in answer to your question Bridget, Is hall the one to get the job done? NO the one getting the job done is the same one that has had the largest impact on reversing many of undesirable trends in Atlanta for the past 7 years. ——-City of Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin!

By Former APS Employee

October 9, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

I use to work for one of the central office units in Atlanta Public Schools. I started my employment with Atlanta in 2000. In 2000, I was told that Atlanta had a student enrollment of 99,000 students. Now, today in the paper, it’s 59,429. Someone needs to check those numbers because I would not trust anything the school system reports.

Also, my question is how can a Superintendent be rewarded a salary of over 300,000 when the federal government is investigating the missmangement of 73 million in federal E-rate technology grants and local funds from 1998 to 2002 to wire schools for the Internet (according to an AJC article). Yeah, Dr. Hall came in 1999, but what about the funds spent in 2000, 2001, and 2002 during her tenure. Where is the accountability people…where?

By Pompano

October 9, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Shirley Franklin’s salary as mayor is one-third of Hall’s. School administration salaries are out of control - we grossly over-pay for very mediocre talent.

In the private sector, Hall would make 25% of what she earns.

By Jeff

October 9, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

I still have the Excel file listing the salary of every single Superintendent in this state (minus Cox), along with a basic per-student break down per system.

It shows that while some Supers get paid astronomically - such as Hall - it really isn’t that much on a per-student level (Hall is around $6 per student, if I remember correctly).

Others don’t make all THAT much, but at the per-student level it is astronomical. (One Super in particular - I forget exactly who/ where - made $400+ on a per-student level, though this Super’s pay was nowhere NEAR Hall’s (roughly $100K, I think))

If anyone wants it, email me at ajc_jeff@yahoo.com

It certainly was interesting to me!

By jim d

October 9, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Pomp,

Funny you should mention that as it was the very same Dr. Hall that explained the firing of a whole bunch of school employees in NJ. when she took the school system over in ?? was it Newark? as being they were over paid and would only earn about 25% of the salary they were being paid were they working in the public domain.

Ironic isn’t it that she is now the one being paid 4 times what the job warrrants? Think she’ll fire herself now?

By jim d

October 9, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Scuse me—“working in the private sector”

By jim d

October 9, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

one other small thing that we are all overlooking that may help accont for improved Grad rates.

**smaller class size”

8306 fewer students spread out over 89 schools would equate to roughly 94 fewer students per school.

By catlady

October 9, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I think our supt makes $30 per child! And that is JUST on salary, not including negotiated bennies like the county pays HIS share of retirement, HIS share of insurance supplement, a flat $7000 for mileage PLUS his expenses, HIS 401 K contribution, HIS disability share, HIS membership in professional organizations, and the stuff they pay for all employees, such as the percentage of retirement, insurance, etc. All told, it is closer to $50 per student. Don’t be fooled by the “published rates”.

By catlady

October 9, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

Oh, no, jim d: we have been preached to that class size does not really matter! (Tell that to our 5th grade teachers, with 28 students each).

By catlady

October 9, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

I believe there is a state law that the supt has to be the highest paid person in the school system. Since we have coaches (with master’s degrees) making $90,000, the supt’s salary HAS to beat that!

By thomas

October 9, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this

APS is a school system in decline. Many of its residents are being forced out due to gentrication, closing of the Atlanta housing projects, and the rise in home foreclosures (many due to calculated redlining). As a consequence, more and more poor and working class families, THE ONES WITH CHILDREN, are leaving the city of Atlanta. The ones moving in have no children or send them to private schools.

However I will tell you this— APS is getting all cleaned and gussied up for the new bunch of yuppies and middle class families moving into Atlanta. New schools are being built and old rundown hovels are shut down. The schools are looking good even in the ghetto. The city fathers know that one day all of these hoods are going to be run out and the “good people” are going to be in those neighborhoods. Even if it takes 5-10 years, it will happen. And when that happens, the school, along with the neighborhood will belong to the middle class again.

Nobody really cares about what happens to the children in these APS schools right now. All Hall cares about is looking good and padding her resume. Her legacy. “I took an floundering urban school system and after 8 years under my leadership,…………..”

By SET

October 9, 2007 7:40 PM | Link to this

After reading Thomas’ coment It seems that Hall is a really good educrat.

What do we expect, people? The standing ovation part is a hoot.

I don’t expect these systems (school districts) to educate proletariat children. It’s not what they are really about. When that day comes you will be able to tell by the jobs those children start taking upon departure from the school - and by the way the students carry themselves in public.

If you think things are interesting now, wait until millions of Mexicians move into your state (they are coming). And take every single service and hospitality job you have - and enroll all their children in your public schools. Your GA displaced proletariat will have a lot more to complain about then than just the gentrification of Atlanta.

By Lee

October 9, 2007 8:06 PM | Link to this

We’ve blogged about Hall’s salary several weeks ago. As I said then, if she ever gets out of education, she can have a stellar career in sales.

A standing ovation? Good grief.

You’ve got to take everything in context. Clayton is getting overwhelmed with Atlanta’s trash - and we see what is happening to that system.

By Confused

October 10, 2007 8:24 AM | Link to this

I just want to know why Ms. Hall can make as much money as she does and the students at Benjamin E. Mays High School do not have textbooks. The principal says they don’t have the money; however I pay taxes every year. I just want to know where the money is going?

By jim d

October 10, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

Confused?

Perhaps your elected school board representative can explain.

I’d love to read an answer, to the question, from said rep.

By APS Retiree

October 10, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

What a great job Hall has! She makes more than any other superintendent in Georgia and has the fewest students. As far as statistics go, everything can be manipulated. Don’t believe everything you read. Things are not well in the Atlanta Public Schools.

By Ernest

October 10, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Back to the question of whether Hall can do it, you can’t ignore that she has done a pretty good job changing the ‘perception’ of the school system, at least from a national perspective. Being that most of us are local, we have a different perspective. She seems to be forming the ‘right’ kind of partnerships to get APS the financial resources and partnerships it needs to move forward. This is conjunction with what Shirley Franklin is doing is helping the situation.

On the flip side, what would you pay for an urban school system super with the track record APS had prior to Hall accepting the job? What kind of candidates do you think would be interested in a job like that?

By jim d

October 10, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Yo!!! any words of wisdom for our friend Jeff?

visit the momania blog.

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/shared-blogs/ajc/parenting/entries/2007/10/10/whatmistakesh.html#comments

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

October 10, 2007 6:42 PM | Link to this

Ernest was right to use quotation marks when he said Hall has change the ‘perception’ of APS, because eight years into Hall’s tenure and it is still not uncommon for teachers to be physically assaulted with no consequence to the student.

That is a DIRECT result of Hall “signing off” on falsified discipline data and having Kathy Augustine deny it was falsified to the AJC by saying “…our reforms are working so well, there are no discipline problems to report.”

While the ‘perception’ has changed, the reality is that Hall maintains a corporate culture that says to students LOUD and CLEAR “If you assault a teacher, don’t worry about a consequence. After all, how can there be a consequence if there isn’t an incident? And there is no ‘incident’ unless we say so; and we won’t.” (And we KNOW we can get away with this, because we KNOW the AJC won’t follow up on any falsified discipline data we submit)

No wonder enrollment is dropping and teachers are leaving in droves. As long as Hall has nine lackeys who care NOT about students, but instead about ‘peception’ the citizens of Atlanta get the bottom dwelling schools they fully and richly deserve, as a DIRECT result of voting for board members who place ‘perception’ above reality.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

October 11, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

“5th Year In Hell” How can you say Hall is doing “the best she can with what she inherited” when she signed off on FALSIFIED discipline data on FORTY schools?! If you said there were discipline problems in those forty schools then you could make the case she “inherited” that.

But she did not “inherit” LYING about it; she INSTIGATED lying about it when she sent Asst. Supt. Kathy Augustine to the AJC to deny that there was falsified data, but in fact “there are no discipline problems to report” in those FORTY schools.

With that action, Hall created a climate where students KNOW they can physically assault teachers and get away with it, because the incidents will be swept under the rug.

That is FAR from doing “the best she can do”. Are you saying “5th Year In Hell” that falsifying discipline data, retaliating against teachers who want to press charges when they’ve been physically assaulted and repeatedly violating teachers’ rights to a tribunal hearing when they’ve been physically assaulted is “the best she can do”?

The message the board just sent to APS teachers is “We find it perfectly acceptable as part of your job that you will be subjected to physical assault and your rights to due process via the tribunal process when you are physically assaulted will be denied. We feel your physical safety is a small price to pay for the “perception” that Atlanta is making gains as a “world class school system”.

“5th Year In Hell” you of all people should know, APS teachers deserve better teaching conditions than THAT, if for no other reason than APS students deserve better learning conditions then that.