Get Schooled

By Lee

October 4, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Why is there so much distrust?

From a parent’s perspective, maybe one reason is that there is not a week that goes by that we don’t hear about some controversy. You know, a teacher having sex with students, elementary schoolkids suspended for Tweety Bird keychains, an Eagle Scout suspended for having a camp axe in the bed of his pickup truck from the weekend camping trip, an honor student suspended for Motrine or Tylenol in her purse, another student suspended for having a Swiss Army knife (you know, one of those things with a corkscrew and fork/spoon).

Even on this blog, I read about administrators who fail to discipline students, teachers who pass students along from grade to grade who can’t do the work, when teachers do recommend a student to be retained, the principal overrules her and passes the student on.

Without calling names, I have also noted a couple of alleged teachers on this blog who I would not allow within 100 yards of my kids. They have no business being in a classroom.

Need I go on?

By ward

October 4, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

Parents… Build a bridge and get over it. We are not a day care service. Teach your kids some manners.

By Buy Danish

October 4, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

Now we have no idea from the article exactly what the child did to lead to this kind of punishment — if it actually occurred. Of course, that didn’t stop parents or teachers from taking sides.

Excellent observation, Bridget.

Everyone has an opinion. No one knows the facts.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Simple: because many parents now are terrible, terrible parents. I’ll be open and honest here for the sake of making a point.

When I was younger, especially in elem. school, I was diagnosed as ADHD. The school wanted my parents to dope me up with untold amounts of drugs (whatever was the flavor of the month at the time) in order to curb my rather disruptive behavior. My parents refused. They were older types, and they believed that some hard justice could bring about a change in my behavior much more effectively than any drugs could. Throughout elem. school I endured harsh punishments, groundings, and, god forbid, myriad encounters with my dad’s hands, belts, and/or brushes. Then a funny thing happened.

By the time I reached middle school, the misbehavior began to taper off. The number of detentions I received fell dramatically after sixth grade, and by the time I reached high school, I was on the straight and narrow. I was in all gifted classes, maintained an A/B average in each class, and never received another detention through four years of high school.

Magic? I think not.

My parents realized that in order to make me behave, they COULD NOT BE MY FRIEND. They had to do things that were, at times, unpleasant but necessary. They always knew that the ends would justify the means. Honestly, there were times they went too far, and there are things that they did that strained the relationship between us for years, but in the end I turned out pretty good. Now I instill the same values in my child, always remembering who is the parent, and who is the child. Because my parents made mistakes, I have a firm grasp of what they did right, and what they did wrong. I am a better parent for it.

Long story short, many parents today have no concept of this balance or this relationship with children. Their punishments are ineffectual, their backbones soft, and their primary goal is to be a friend and not a mentor. The two cannot always co-exist. They should be less concerned with how their children perceive them in the short term, and more concerned with how they turn out in the long run. Plain and simple.

I’ll save my digressions and other rants for later, but the bottom line is this: many parents today simply do not know how to parent. And many teachers today wish they did.

By gwinnett educator (formerly dekalb)

October 4, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this

It has to be an honest and collective effort on both sides of the coin to ensure students are doing what is expected of them. I have been teaching since the fall of 1996 and let me tell you, if it is just 1 or 2 chatterboxes (the least of my worries) that go on and on and a teacher can not deal with that without tape, then the teacher has some issues with classroom management. HOWEVER, how do you deal with its 15 of 21?

I am currently teaching 1st grade and let me tell you, although I feel liim in HEAVEN compared to the Dekalb county school I just left, it is still something to deal with. I have parents that want me to make sure their child eats all of their breakfast, make sure their child gets his/her lunch from their book bags. I have dealt with MUCH WORSE issues, but that simply can not be done. How do you cope and do your job when majority of your parents what you to do that for their child?

Turn that to behavior, how can a teacher do his/her job effectively? How can we handle 10 out of 21 (if not nore) unruly children that we can not discipline? We can not touch the children (and I dont want to because I have my own) we can NOT put them out of class…so what gives?

It is not totally the parents’ fault nor is it totally the teachers’ fault.

By myway

October 4, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

Oh please I forgot Cobb County school teachers, administrators, etc are perfect and NEVER are at fault. They also, can justify their their reasoning, they are in charge, they enjoy their authority and will use it any way they can to make themselves feel better about themselves. THEY HAVE NO ACCOUNTABILITY only the the AUTHORITY

By Old Physics Teacher

October 4, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

From my perspective after 15 years of teaching, 25 years in the private sector (retail), and 40 years as a parent:

My first year teaching I was told by my principal that I must make contact AT LEAST twice with a parent before he would intervene with my classroom discipline. I was told that first-year teachers tend to “write-up” minor discipline infractions and send the child to an administrator for what should be handled in the classroom. As I was a first-year teacher at the ripe old age of 43, and the same age as the principal, he told me that most first-year teachers were assumed to be “well-disciplined” students when they were students and unused to “normal” children acting “normally.” All he was trying to do was to force the teacher to learn to handle small problems by themselves.

As a parent of 4 children, on more than one occasion, my wife had to go to the school and talk to an administrator about my children’s “problems.” When the children got home from school, then the real discipline occurred. This was how discipline occurred in my home, my parent’s home, and my neighborhood’s homes. Naturally, I assumed that all parents raised their kids like I, and my neighbors, did.

Unfortunately, I had my eyes opened quickly. I found out that most children (mind – these were 13 to 18 year-olds) I disciplined were astounded that I was meting out discipline for such a “minor” occurrence. I thought they were just faking. They weren’t! They actually were astounded that I was going to punish them for the “little thing” that they did wrong! When I called the parents – generally after 6:00 PM at night, I found out why they were astonished. They treated their parents worse than they did me!! In one case I had a student that just wouldn’t shut up in class. She would talk, talk, talk. Even when I was trying to correct this child-woman, she wouldn’t stop talking. When I called her father to talk to him, she kept interrupting him trying to talk over both of us. He never said one word to her to tell her to keep quiet. She actually cursed at him with no intervention from him whatsoever.

Now, she WAS an extreme case. There were parents that were horrified by what their children did, and I never had a second problem from those children. And, in general, my classes have very few problem children, but over my 15-year, and counting, career I have seen many problem children from ALL socioeconomical backgrounds – rich, poor and middle-class. In every case that comes to mind, when I had a real problem-child, I had a real problem-parent. I repeat: some were poor, some were rich, but in all my cases, a problem child had a problem parent. I’m sure most teachers have run into this same situation. That’s why you see here what you see here. The problem parents say they don’t have problem children; it’s the teacher’s fault. The teachers all say, “I would NEVER tape a child’s mouth shut. I would think it; I would visualize it; I would dearly LOVE to do it, but I wouldn’t do it… but I sure understand that “teacher’s” motivation. There but for the grace of God, goes me.”

So after this long story, the reason we are diametrically opposed is this:
1) the teacher’s are just as horrified as the normal parents. The difference is that we can deeply empathize with that “after school” teacher. We visualize doing that every day to the problem children.
2) The normal parents are horrified because they can’t conceive any caring individual could do such a thing.
3) The problem parents have no idea they are the cause of the problem in the first place – they think they’re “normal” parents.

Now I’ve used up my entire week’s planning time in writing this. I have to go to work and also work late tonight to make up for the lost time.

Later

By Parent

October 4, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Well said V! My son was having problems in one class in middle school. The teacher and I communicated several times over a few weeks about it. Later I asked her how he was doing. Her reply? “He’s doing great. I can tell when there are consequences at home. All I have to do is ask him if I need to call his mom and he straightens up.”

Too many parents today take the attitude that the kid is being reprimanded at school so they don’t “need” to do anything at home. I have a different point of view, believing that I want the poor behavior to stop so I want it to make it as painful as possible in order to discourage bad behavior. (I don’t mean physical pain here.)

By SCY

October 4, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

Back in 1983, when I was in the 3rd grade my teacher did the exact same thing. I was being talkative and the teacher idn’t hesitate when I wouldn’t stop talking. Well I stopped after that. I didn’t even think anything of it…I never even told my parents and even if I did rather than going to the school to complain, I’m sure my parents would have punished me for misbehaving in school. Today’s children have no concept of what is appropriate behavior in the classroom and parents will defend almost anything their child does, no matter how outrageous. I’m not excusing the teacher for taping the child’s mouth shut, I would probably object if someone did it to my child, but the teacher may have feared the parents wouldn’t deal with the child’s behavior. If my child misbehaves I most certainly will deal with it. I was once a teacher, but was driven off by disruptive children. I am not a child’s parent and didn’t sign on to be a teacher to assume the role of surrogate parent. I had students who cursed at their parents in front of me and naturally the parents did nothing. So what’s a teacher to do when children don’t even respect their own parents?

By lopro

October 4, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

Most parents are terrible about supporting the teachers their little heathens are required to “teach.”

How can any learing occur when the kids know they have the right, bestowed by mommy and daddy, to do anything they want.

I wasn’t the perfect student in school and was appropriately punished. And no, I am not an old fart. I just believe that education is synonomous with “day-care” for these spoiled brats of suburbia.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

There is NO excuse for an adult to duct tape a childs mouth shut. Yes, there are always two sides to every story. Bottom line this falls under corporal punishment and unless the adult(parent) authorized it then the school systems after-school program should be in a world of trouble. With all the technology available today—call the parents cell, blackberry, e-mail, fax etc. Generally speaking kids in middle and elementary school do not want Mom or Dad notified and will straighten up pretty darn quickly when told their parents will be called—but you have to follow through—don’t give empty threats-they are very bright and know exactly how far they can push the envelope.
I did not sign on to be my childrens friend—I am their parent and as the sweatshirt my daughter made for me last Christmas states: Mom’s Rules—1) Mom is Always Right and 2) When Mom might be wrong refer to rule Number 1. My sons gift—Was also a Sweatshirt it read: When Momma Ain’t Happy, Ain’t Nobody Happy. Words to live by.

By t

October 4, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

Problem is parents only concentrate on the negative. For example, if I send an invitation to a parent to attend parent conferences, I don’t hear a thing. However, when their child goes home and tells their parents I have scolded them about bad behavior then I hear all about it.

By Shell

October 4, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

A longtime teacher and coach in the Atlanta school system once told me, “You cannot nurture what you cannot discipline.” A wise man was Coach.

By One

October 4, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

I don’t get it, nowhere in the story does it indicate the child misbehaved! Even when the mother went to the school, it says nothing about the administrators/teachers saying the child had misbehaved. So where are you all drawing this conclusion from? But wait, it’s a given that since this happened, it had to be the childs fault, right? Because he’s bad, and his mama is ignorant for not teaching him any manners, right? Now don’t get me wrong, there are some badly behaved kids out there, and some trifling parents too! Aren’t there also some psycho people who will (attempt) to harm (rape, kidnap, torture, kill)children no matter how the act? So before we start ranting and raving and sounding really ignorant, please get the facts.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Jane:

Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? Either way accomplishes the mission of shutting your brat up, and I’m cool with either.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

A few bad apples really do spoil the whole barrel. This is true for the parents and for the teachers. And, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree!

The problem is that the ‘bad apple’ parents that raise the ‘bad apple’ children impact all teachers and not just the ‘bad apple’ teachers.

Some parents are horrible. Parents do not require training or certification or anything. They just have had sex to have kids.

ALL teachers must be certified and trained. Are ALL teachers perfect? No - all teachers are human beings and human beings have issues.

Comparing today’s society to yester-year, today’s kids in general get less parenting. They get much of their ‘home lessons’ from TV, video games, etc. Note that this is not ALL kids, but quite a few.

Many parents either don’t parent due to lack of time (working multiple jobs, etc.) or because they have no clue how to parent (they would rather be their child’s friend, etc.).

Schools and teachers should not be expected to parent. There is enough to do without adding the parenting responsibility.

By Dave

October 4, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

This incident, the debate surrounding it, and the generally armed and dangerous state of affairs between teachers and parents these days is disappointing. Parents do often expect schools to be the end-all of education and child warehousing. Teachers do often point fingers at parents. The only people consistent in the mix are the kids… they are consistently losing out on the benefits of a good education.

As a teacher candidate at KSU, I hope I can retain my professionalism in the face of whatever. I think I will, because I will always remember to consider that parents don’t intentionally raise children who are “un-.” Parents often work 2 jobs and have no idea what or how to raise kids, especially if they come from substandard families themselves.

If we are ever to break the education/poverty cycle, it has to be through understanding, empathy, best practice-based strategies, and a general love of the kids. Accountability is one thing, but finger-pointing is something completely different.

By will

October 4, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

From a veteran teacher with life certification in Georgia, I can tell you that many parent conferences end abruptly when it gets into a “he said/she said.” It becomes counterproductive and I don’t waste my time playing their game. Parenting is the hardest job there is! With little discipline at home, some parents just won’t accept that their child is a problem in school.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

I teach on a block schedule and am responsible for my students for a mere 90 minutes. I have no control over what affects them outside of my classroom. I have clear rules and expectations posted and a portion of their grade includes work ethics (because employers expect this.)

I’ve had students bring joy,anger, frustration, enthusiasm, sadness, angst, confusion, indifference, fear, and other baggage to class. All of it affects their work and behavior. But for an hour and a half, I try very hard to teach them some drafting and to model the kind of workplace manners, attitudes and actions I want them to develop.

I am also a parent. It is very hard to accept my child’s shortcomings. But I learned early on to listen and weigh as many sides to the issues as were presented. I did not automatically assume my child was right or wrong. I wasn’t perfect but I did understand there is “kid truth” and “teacher truth” and both are tinted by perceptions of all involved.

I choose to be non-confrontational…even when it is nearly impossible to be. I choose to listen carefully and really try to understand what happened and what might have caused it to happen from the standpoints of both teacher and parent. I tolerate (sometimes too much perhaps) some conversation and movement in my classroom but my students know my limits. It works for me…for that 90 minutes.

I am an imperfect person teaching the imperfect children of imperfect people in an imperfect environment. But mostly, for that 90 minutes we are safe and at peace.

By Jay

October 4, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Man, stories like these make me never want to be a parent or a teacher. Good luck! I’ll be in the Bahamas living in sin.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Dave:

Get the HADES out of the Ed program at KSU before you are too far warped to be of any use to anybody in anything.

There is not a SINGLE WORSE Dept at KSU, and that is saying something if you look at some of the other departments! (I’m talking speficially the College of Humanities here.)

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

You know when I first posted I said there were a couple of teachers who posted on this blog who I wouldn’t want within a 100 yards of my kids. I didn’t want to call names and get an argument going. That is, until I read this:

“Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? Either way accomplishes the mission of shutting your brat up, and I’m cool with either.”

The sad (and scary) thing is that this person was a teacher and had access to children on a daily basis until he finally got his a55 fired.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

What was the question again. Oh yeah,

Why is there so much distrust?

Exhibit A, Jeff’s post above.

By unclefast

October 4, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Dave, I remember being idealistic 33 years ago. You have a lot to learn, sonny boy. And what ARE “best practice-based strategies?” After teaching for 27 years, I’ve observed that none of that crap works. It takes tough parents, as well as no-nonsense teachers and administrators.

By MamaS

October 4, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

In the “Good Ole Days” parents supported teachers. If a child got in trouble at school, they got in trouble at home. Parents came to parent conferences and PTA members were attended by both groups. Teachers could hug a student without being accused of sexual abusers. Room mothers were VIP’s. Now, the parent (usually single) treats the school and teacher as a free sitter service. “I’m paying your salary, so the little rascal is your problem from 8 until 2. And every American is lawsuit crazed. My last year of teaching I saw an 8-year-old walking down the hall way too close to the wall. I said, nicely. “Honey you need to walk further away from the wall. If someone opened a classroom door, you could get hit!”
Her reply “If anyone hits me, I’ll sue!”

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I would’ve had your kid in Alternative School before you could even THINK the word.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Dave, follow your heart. Go into whatever situation with your eyes open but your heart open as well. Go back to your own high school and talk with the teachers who were hardest on you (you know, the ones who demanded and got your best no matter how begrudgingly you gave it.) Learn from them and use what works best for you given your own temperment and personality. Be secure in your knowledge of the subject matter, consistent in your discipline/consequences, diligent in documenting your successes and failures, and flexible enough to adapt your methods to those “teachable moments” that can and do arise.

Don’t go into any job, career, position starry-eyed and expecting to move mountains. Be realistic but open. You might be assigned a mentor teacher but stay aware of all the others. You can learn quite a bit from the good, the bad, and the indifferent. Learn the culture of your school and figure out how to fit into it and how to make your own statement.

Wow! I think I’ve cornered the cliche’ market but you get my drift.

I LOVE what I do. I have heartaches and highpoints. I’ve found what works for me and I’ve done just that for 33 years (with the requisite adaptations du jour.)

I’m glad you want to be a teacher. You won’t win all your battles but you’ll win enough that it will be worth it.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I don’t think so.

Tell you what, I have raised one child to adulthood, who is a college graduate and is now a successful and productive member of society. Her younger sister is an honor student at a top-notch private school and has a world of opportunity awaiting her.

You, on the other hand, have done nothing but spout hot air and got your a55 run off from a small, rural school system that was desperate for Math teachers. You know nothing about parenting and apparently, very little about teaching.

Come talk to me in a few years after you have actually done something.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Also, a note to Lee in particular and parents in general:

If you will discipline your kids at home, I won’t have to use “unorthodox” discipline methods at school, and we will ALL be happier!

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Come on, Old School. My previous post had more and better cliches…..

A bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

LOL

By Jane

October 4, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Jeff: My brat as you referred to him is nothing of the sort. He did his share of obnoxious items-however his teachers and I communicated. They did not have the Right to duct tape his mouth or to knock his teeth out. However, if I got called; he knew his behind was mine. I do not play-I believe in dicipline and one of the items referred to in my previous post the Christmas gifts-we chose to make our gifts to each other. My son is 29 and my daughter is 28 and both are wonderful adults and are raising their children with the same principles that they were raised with. No legal problems and they have 2 children each and are very much so hands on. so once again you show your ignorance by not knowing what you are speaking about.

By Sarah

October 4, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You’re such a tough guy..oooh, you’ll shut the mouth of some 5th grader. Wow, i’m sure you love to lord over the little ones.

You’re probably a twenty-three year old little punk, who loves playing the tough guy. Someone needs to toss you over their knee and teach you some discipline!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I’ve done more in 25 years than you’ve done in 50.

I don’t have to brag about my kids. I achieved great heights. I don’t have to live through my kids like a sniveling little coward of a boy.

In the words of a man who pretty much all acknowledge is one of the hardest workers in his industry, “You want some, COME GET SOME!”

By sarah

October 4, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I’m glad I know that this Jeff guy doesn’t work in the classroom. you’re right he’s exhibit A why you don’t automatically assume the teacher is correct.

A lot of the younger generation of teachers are not the lot we grew up., stern but fair older women with years of experience and their own families. Instead, we get kids who go home and play video games, justlike the kids they teach. Or go get drunk with their students on the weekend. Good lord, you want me to place the care of my children in their hands - WITHOUT QUESTION?

not gonna happen.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Aha JustMe! You’ve thrown down the gauntlet! The monkey is now on my back…let the chips fall where they may.

The game’s afoot!

You will notice that I painted my pictures with a far more narrow brush than most other posters. We all know every situation is different and while there are far too many bad parents, maybe we just don’t hear too much about the good ones (we don’t like to brag about our parenting skills.) The bad stuff sells papers despite our cries for “More GOOD news!” We really just want to pick at the scabs and get them to bleed a little more so we can blame somebody.

We teachers just need to do our best and we parents just need to do the same. One kid at a time…one class at a time…one whatever at a time. That’s how we’ll change the world.

You know…it’s like how you eat an elephant…one bite at a time!

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Dang, sounds like a bunch of thugs waiting to rumble………all over something you don’t know very much about!! Way to go people!! Now you’re acting just like the Rethuglicons in office!!!! Ahhh, the land of the free and the home of the berated!!!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Sarah:

You’re missing the point:

If you (the parent) will shut his mouth, I (the teacher) won’t have to.

Neither one of us WANTS me to have to shut his mouth. But unlike most parents these days, I actually have a pair and don’t mind doing things I’d rather not do if I am forced to do them.

Course, that goes back to single parents most often being mothers.

And boys like Lee that have to be their child’s best friend so that they can live vicariously through them.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

“Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? … I’m cool with either.”

“If you will discipline your kids at home, I won’t have to use “unorthodox” discipline methods at school”

Jeff, the more you post, the more ridiculous you appear.

Part of being a parent is to limit the exposure of your children to psychopaths and others who would do them harm. Thankfully, for all parties concerned, our paths have never crossed.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Jeff; Just curious-exactly what do you deem to be the: GREAT Achivements of your life. 25 years is not all that much and as they say—Boy do you have a lot to learn. I can only hope that you do learn and don’t continue to be the condesending arragont blow hard you are proporting yourself to be on this blog.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Dang:

I’m going to openly acknowledge that I really could use a good fight today, though I do need it to be physical.

FAR too much stress going on, mostly relating directly to the wedding.

I just have to survive the next 9 days. Problem is, it gets harder and harder every day! I can honestly say that I have NEVER been under this much pressure, and my life hasn’t exactly been the easiest around!

By Freddy K.

October 4, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Don’t really care one way or the other. If a child needs punishing then put it on them, if the deserve rewarding then put it on them. The rest is bullchit. WAH WAH WAH YAK YAK YAK. Bottom line be a parent, teach the children respect and the improtance of education. They have enough friends of their own.

By Freddy K.

October 4, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Don’t really care one way or the other. If a child needs punishing then put it on them, if the deserve rewarding then put it on them. The rest is bullchit. WAH WAH WAH YAK YAK YAK. Bottom line be a parent, teach the children respect and the importance of education. They have enough friends of their own.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you’ll end up in a body bag, or better, floating in some unknown body of water, if you try that mess with the right (or should I say, wrong) child! I’m sure that’s the “keyboard courage” talking! HAHAHA

By Old School

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I had a student back in ‘89-‘93 who believed every word I spoke…even on Wednesdays (my day for lying.) He never challenged anything and frankly, that scared me. His family was not dysfunctional nor did it fit any negative stereotype at all. His parents were involved and informed and raised him very well.

When I learned he wanted to attend Georgia Tech in Mechanical Engineering, I made it my goal to get him to stand up to me. I baited him everyway I could. I disagreed with him ESPECIALLY when he was right. I was worse than the worse student I ever taught.

One day he had evidently had enough. When I answered his question incorrectly, he YELLED AT ME! Shocked me into dead silence with my mouth hanging open! Embarrassed? I sure was but delighted as well. It had taken all 4 years but I was confident he could survive Ga Tech. The rest of the year was wonderful. We could argue/discuss/disagree and get the rest of the class involved. Some of my best moments occurred at top volume in those days.

He very much survived Tech and is doing very well.

Jeff, I sincerely hope you have found the career that best suits YOU. Teaching high school kids is my perfect cup of tea. Maybe it will be Dave’s too.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Monie:

I’ve defeated people more powerful than you with my eyes closed. Again, “you want some, COME GET SOME”.

Threatening death is something I’ve faced from people both better and more powerful than you, and at least they had the courage to do it to my face.

Talk about “keyboard courage”…

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Sigh, Jeff,

You’ve mentioned before that you have anger issues, and it’s not hard to see why. I’m not sure how you think these boastful comments and claims of intelligence help to support your claims (whatever they may be at the time). Physical taunts and threats don’t really mean a whole lot over the internet. Who knows, maybe JustMe is a ninja in real life and can kill you with one glance, or SET knows jujitsu and is a national champion. Calm down Jeff, and leave some of the extremism out of your posts.

To everyone else, You have to understand that teachers, at times, can be frustrated by students that exhibit very little discipline. While I would never condone a teacher who duct tapes the mouth of a child shut, I do agree that at times it is hard to not turn into a raging Vesuvius of anger towards some kids. There IS a discipline gap, that’s for sure, but I agree with what some others have said about the negative view of teachers (thanks to the news jumping all over ever report of corrupt or illicit teacher scandals).

I ask you this: As bad as those stories might be, compare it to the far superior volume of stories about bad parenting — children dying in hot cars, abandoned, beaten, neglected, orphaned, involved in gangs, and teen pregnancy.

Point made.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Jeff: Congratulations on the wedding.

I do wish you the best. I would appreciate your staying out of the schools as a teacher if this is your honest attitude toward children.

You need to remember that you were once a child and I am quite sure you did things that your parents were not 100% appreciative of however, they loved you anyway. Parents today are not only single Moms.

Single Dads deal with the same discipline issues however, as you stated they are not in the classroom and have to weigh what is being told from both sides of any issue. When a teacher wants to be right and the child wants to be right neither one is going to say anything that sheds themself in a negative light. This is where the parent comes in and listens to both sides-draws the conclusion that somewhere down the middle is what actually happened. Both teacher and child can be right and both can be wrong in varying degrees. Sometimes a third party’s view is needed.
I do not think the teacher is always right. I believe in hearing the views of the situation from both sides. And always will.

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff, hope it gets better for you. Or at least, find a non-violent way to relax, relate, release! Good luck! Woosah!!!!

By high school teacher

October 4, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Old School and Just Me,

Great comments. I concur with all you have said. As for cliches, well, my mind is slow today, so I’ll just throw in the towel! :)

I think that there is not as much of a battle between parents and teachers as the media likes to suggest there is. While I have had a few parent confrontations along the way, most of my students’ parents want the same thing for their child as I want.

That said, too often, some teachers forget that their job is to help students, not to trap them. Using duct tape to shut a child’s mouth is completely unacceptable (so is slapping their teeth out). Uncontrolled behavior is not a problem, but rather a symptom of a larger problem. Yes, it is our job to get to know our students to see why they act the way they do. Yes, it is ous job to help students. Yes, it is our job to make sure that they take their lunch out of their backpacks. Yes, it is our job to correct behaior and try to prevent the same behavior. YES, IT IS OUR JOB TO BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO HELP STUDENTS. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DO THAT, THEN FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, OR GO TEACH IN PRIVATE SCHOOL OR AT A COLLEGE.

Teaching is easy when all of the students want to learn. Making students want to learn (or at least making them understand the importance of an education) is the true art of teaching.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Jeff, WTF, dude I don’t know you (just like you don’t know me or anyone else here), so what does a face to face have to do with anything?! H$ll, go roll ya one and chill, cause you don’t know me like that!!! Puff, puff, pass…………sounds like you’ve already been dabbling!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jane:

I trust students as far as I can throw them assuming a 3 ton weight is tied to them.

In other words, I don’t trust students AT ALL.

Parents would be wise to do the same.

Most teachers do.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

And Jeff, just for the record, that wasn’t a threat dear, it was a PROMISE!!!! Ever cross my childs path with that attitude and you will see. But I doubt if that would ever happen, so toke away!!

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Why in hades are you a teacher again?!!! Sounds like you have way too many issues to be in the classroom, maybe you should work with lab rats or something. With that attitude (stress or not) you have no business being around anybody’s child (no matter how well behaved they are). Get a grip, or get some therapy!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

HST:

Nope. Teachers’ jobs is to present the lesson. And deal with discipline as they must.

NOTHING MORE.

If “as they must” means duct taping a kids mouth closed and hog-tieing him to his seat, I’m going to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt that nothing else could be done - though I AM going to want to hear the reasoning.

I don’t mind “unorthodox” methodologies if the reasoning is clear. My attitude always has been and always shall be “Get the job done.”

Again, if parents will do their job relating to discipline, the teacher’s job in that area is already done.

If the teacher can be “nice” about it and simply tell the kid “be quiet” and the kid complies, EXCELLENT.

If the teacher has to do anything short of sending the kid to the hospital, again, I’m going to want to hear their reasoning, but I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now, when a kid winds up in the hospital- at THAT point, the teacher has gone too far.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Jeff, your comments on this blog speak volumes about your maturity. I just hope your future bride has thought long and hard about marrying someone with such obvious anger issues.

As far as achievements? One day, maybe you will realize that buildings crumble, words fade from memory, but our legacy lives on through our children.

What will your legacy be? Will it be a house full of laughter and love or will you be a bitter old man still challenging people to a fight over the internet?

Think about it.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Jeff: your statement “I don’t trust students AT ALL” is one of the saddest things I have ever read.

You have forgotten in your 25 years what it is to be a student or a child. I am so very sorry that you do not have happy memories to look back on. Everyone should have somethng that they can look back on and have a chuckle/laugh about—something like a “Serious infraction—at least at the time—that now seems so minor in the grand scheme of things.

My advise for you find something positive/happy and look for those things. Yes, not everything is wonderful and yes, sometimes you have to take things/stories with a grain of salt. Parents know when they are being lied to—sometimes we even allow them to get away with it because their is a lesson attached—one lie begets another and after a while trying to remember who you told what to—just isn’t worth it.

I didn’t have very many rules with my kids but one was NO LIES. Yes, they both tried and got caught. Not again. WE discuss things, I give my opinion. When they were younger, knowing what they were thinking, giving options and knowing they were headstrong and going to do it their way anyway—it at least gave me enough time to be able to deal with the fall out and be there to help pick up the pieces.

I have let them be in charge of their lives with input since they were teens. Now they guide and mold their children by allowing them to make their choices and having to live with the consequences.

As I have told them over and over again—Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Monie:

I notice you’re not making any moves towards my office.

“Keyboard courage” indeed.

I don’t threaten to hurt people, let alone kill them.

I tell them exactly what will happen in a given situation and let them choose how to proceed.

And I’m telling you now: I have never fought someone that I did not defeat. If you want to be the next to try, come on down.

By disciplined

October 4, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

I encourage every parent and teacher to read Parenting by the Book by Dr. John Rosemond. This book will allow you to see how we have gotten into this situation. It gives helpful information on how to fix it. We need a parenting revolution. This book will help everyone see why school reform has not and will not work. If you are a frustrated teacher or parent this book is a must.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Jeff, how tall are you?

5’3” ?

5’0” ?

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. I’ll shut up now! I’m such a child sometimes.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

This debate regarding Monie, Jeff, and others highlights a real issue….

Teachers are supposed to somehow maintain classroom management without having any real authority to do so. The students know that they DON’T have to listen to the teacher or do what he/she says because the teacher has no authority.

In addition, when the teacher contacts the parent or even the administrator(s)….most of the time they side with the child and fault the teacher.

It is a no-win situation for the teacher in those cases.

This is paramount to a cliche used in industry….. “don’t give me the responsibility unless you also give me the authority.”

Some parents (and administrators) insist that teachers have the responsibility to take care of their child but do not give the teachers any authority to do so. It is just not fair to the teacher.

So, when a teacher finally does “snap” should we really wonder why? Won’t you “snap” after a while under those conditions? Teachers are human.

Personally, I loved that this child got duck tape on their mouth. As I understood it, the child had a choice and the child picked the duck tape. How is that the teachers fault?

By Lee

October 4, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

V, it doesn’t matter. Everyone on the internet is 6’-5”, 250 pounds of solid ex-special forces, hand-to-hand combat instructor, third degree black belt muscle.

Just like me. :)

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Jane:

From early on, the only true bright spot in my life was looking forward to meeting my wife at some point.

Now that I have, as then, my love for her is often the only thing that keeps me going. (Note that I didn’t say that SHE is - honestly, right now, she is a source of the stress!)

I have never been giddy-level “happy”, nor will I ever be. It is simply not in the cards for me. Instead, I live a life fighting the battles so that those around me can be happy. And I find contentment in knowing that they are happy.

There is much to be said for contentment. It is all I have ever truly sought after. That, and the love of my wife.

You may think from my posts, especially today, that I am some kind of raging volcano of anger. Truly, I am not. Truly, I would rather live in peace. To be able to at least SEEK happiness.

But I fight when needed. More accurately, I stand. If someone chooses to bring the fight to me, I prove that I will not be defeated. If they choose to leave in the direction they came, fine. If they choose to leave by continuing on, fine. But as Martin Luther said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

I wish I could become a relic. A forgotten warrior. But I cannot, because people won’t let me.

In Braveheart, William Wallace says “I came home to raise crops, and God willing, a family. If I can live in peace, I will.”

I left Atlanta because I was tired of the fighting. I wanted to do my job (raise crops) and find my wife and start a family. But the fights have continued, and so I know that they always will. I will never live in peace. I can only hope that someday I will rest in peace.

And that fact saddens me FAR beyond any other.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

LOL

“I have never fought someone that I did not defeat.”

I can type creative things, too.

“I often wrestle great white sharks to a standstill, and then let them go.”

“One time I did a backflip off of a moving car and landed in a giant pile of lasagna.”

“Angelina Jolie comes over to my house all the time, but nothing happens. I don’t want to ruin our friendship.”

“I invented the toothbrush.”

“If a tree falls in the forest, it actually sounds like Beethoven’s 5th.”

“The last time I ate Jell-o, I found that I had extraordinary jumping powers.”

“I am unable to say the word ‘banana’ without laughing.”

“2+2=4, except in Cleveland. Nothing makes sense there.”

“I made one of the guards at Buckingham palace talk by showing him a picture of a lemon.”

“I saw two tigers get in a slap fight once. The orange one won.”

By Keeping it simple

October 4, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Many of the teachers today are not well trained, have no incentive to be good teachers, too bound by policy and bureaucracy; and some who are downright incompetent.

Many of the parents out here today are too self consumed, detached, and uneducated themselves to the point that they are ineffective as it relates to their own children’s education.

I guess that about covers it.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Your future wife will not always be a source of the stress in your life. You could choose to look at the stress as a happy thing—your future wife wants everything PERFECT for both of you on your wedding day. Life is about perceptions. How we chose to see things and how we chose to take our stand.
I do hope that you will find the peace you seek. I will tell you from my own self discovery—you can not FIX everything for everyone—you only serve to make yourself miserable. If you are happy with yourself then those around you will also be happy.
I am sorry you felt the Atlanta area was not for you. I can honestly call myself a true Southern Bell or by the acronoym (GRITS—Girls Raised in the South). Happiness either is or is not. I do hope that one day you will find it. I will state that my life has had ups and true downs. I know it has made me the person I am today and I am a better human being for living through both. If you do not know truly bad times how can you accurately appreciate the good times?
Right now my good times and happiness include my husband, children, grandchildren-extended family and knowing that I have managed to reach most of the goals I set for myself.
My wedding wish for you is that you know True Happiness and Joy within your lifetime.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Keeping it simple,

You should have added “some who are downright incompetent” to your paragraph about parents, also.

By Kym-Mom

October 4, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Old School I agree with alot of your earlier comments. No parenting is not like it was when I was a parent. But I really laughed when I read yur comments on teachers preparing these children for the workforce. Right now in the workforce there are three different generations, with three very different ideas on work ethic. We live in a blame everyone but me society. Where people (adults) will not take responsiblity for anything they do wrong. Everyone is looking to place blame. I mean look at the comments on this blog. Teachers will easily lay the blame at the feet of the kids or their parents without frankly looking at their own track record. I mean teaching was considered a noble profession but now it is a job that anyone with a degree in basket weaving could do. Forgive me, but I hold those who feel “the calling to teach” to a higher standard. It is pretty simple for me. I am giving you charge over the greatest gift God has given me for about what 40 hours a week? I expect you to recoginze that what you say or do at the front of that classroom has just as much impact as what I do at home. If you are having a bad day, your hip flask is empty, didnt get laid the night,whatever the problem maybe..then I still expect you to suck it up and do your job. There seems to be a whole lot of whining and less teaching going on everyday.

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Here’s another thing, because I agree Kym mom:

Teaching is a calling, and there are many of us who are passionate and do a (d-mn) good job. To that end, our job is NOT simply to present the lesson. Our job is to be role models. To set good examples. To nurture, where appropriate. To make our classroom a safe haven. To understand that there is more to the kids’ worlds than the hours (or minutes) they spend with us each day. So share more than subject-matter knowledge, but also a sense of how to act, how to speak. I teach as many life lessons as I do math lessons. And by God, I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!

By Tired of Teaching

October 4, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Where do I start? Hmmmmm…………

I’ve been teaching for 11 years and over this time I’ve become more frustrated with every passing year by the outright disrespect of children. I’ve changed school systems but that doesn’t help. Now, I will say that when I taught in a small private school, I was in hog heaven, but I was being paid barely over minimum wage.

I am the parent of two kids. Nope, they ain’t even close to being perfect. My son, who is ADHD and gifted, is a handful to say the least. My daughter, well, she’s older but still talks too much. As a parent and a teacher, I fully understand both roles. And they are the most difficult jobs that exist. I rarely get any “real” teaching done because I am disciplining kids all day. Wake up parents! Some of your kids are unruly and disgustingly disrespectful. And stop blaming teachers because your kid is failing when they don’t DO any work!

I give! It’s the only way I can keep my sanity and raise my own children.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom

And I, as a teacher, expect that YOU would have first done YOUR job BEFORE your child walks into MY room. That means teaching them to respect authority and adults, have common manners, know to obey rules, have ethics and morals.

If YOU have done YOUR job, then I can do MY job.

Secondly, I expect you to support me, the adult and authority in the room, unless there are extreme circumstances. Otherwise, you will be undermining my authority and my ability to do MY job in MY classroom.

Finally, I expect for YOU to ensure that YOUR child does THEIR work and THEY study in YOUR home as assigned by me. Otherwise, don’t complain to me that their grade isn’t as high as you would like.

If you can do those things, I promise to do my part and we will get along just fine. In addition, I would assure you that your child will learn the content as prescribed by the State of GA.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Tired of Teaching: I commend you for knowing that you are tired. I wish you the best in your future endevors.
Last year my grandson had a teacher that was tired/fed up/should have resigned and didn’t—needless to say we have been spending a lot of time reintroducing him to the concept that Learning is Fun.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

JustMe, and on the other end of the spectrum, we parents can do everything right and then our child walks into the classroom from he11 with a psychopath like Jeff for a teacher.

Bridget asks why is there so much distrust. I say blind trust is a dangerous thing.

By dave

October 4, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

The problem ALL is with the parents….junior or missy does not get a good grade….they make a “stink” about it….

But the teachers in GA don’t get off scott free….why is GA always at the bottom of the barrel with test scores (SAT’s)…..

Ther are schools in the Bronx (NYC) that get better test scores and have higher graduation rates then some of the best schools in GA….trust me…if I had a child…when they would get to school age…I would move to the North East….the South is a “joke”….can’t figure out why….but it is…and it’s NOT getting better….it’s EXACTLY the same as it was 12 years ago when I frost moved here……tell me why….

By dave

October 4, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

The problem ALL is with the parents….junior or missy does not get a good grade….they make a “stink” about it….

But the teachers in GA don’t get off scott free….why is GA always at the bottom of the barrel with test scores (SAT’s)…..

Ther are schools in the Bronx (NYC) that get better test scores and have higher graduation rates then some of the best schools in GA….trust me…if I had a child…when they would get to school age…I would move to the North East….the South is a “joke”….can’t figure out why….but it is…and it’s NOT getting better….it’s EXACTLY the same as it was 12 years ago when I first moved here……tell me why….

By Old School

October 4, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Kym-mom, you may not be aware of this but CTAE instructors are required to have Advisory Committees comprised of folks from business and industry. Members of my own committee are employees and employers from area industries. Each school year they complete a survey that gives me feedback on what skills, knowledge, work ethics they expect of potential employees. We meet twice a year (more often if they desire) and I visit their workplaces several times each year. This keeps me current and realistic. I am also a member of our area technical college’s program advisory committee which puts me in contact with even more industry reps. I am very aware of the changing workplace. I am also required to keep abreast of the changing technology in that workplace. This I do by attending workshops and classes offered by industry.

Learning is a life-long commitment by those of us who honestly try to give our best to our students. Where I am deficient, I have no problem bringing in experts. Example: civil engineers have volunteered their time in my class as I have limited surveying experience.

I do not presume to speak for all CTAE instructors though. And I encourage you to hold ME to the highest standard. I expect nothing less from my employers…the taxpayers of Georgia. I will continue to “…suck it up…” as you so eloquently put it and do my job.

And as for “If you are having a bad day, your hip flask is empty, didnt get laid the night,whatever the problem maybe….” I am offended. Comments like that are uncalled for. You do not know me nor I you. There are myriad other ways of stating your opinion without that.

By high school teacher

October 4, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Old School, my husband is a CTAE teacher. We academic teachers could learn a thing or two from the CTAE teachers.

By Kym-Mom

October 4, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

As prescribed by the State of GA.

That always amazes me. Teachers who love to teach but I will only teach what they tell them to.

When I was in high school(back in the late 80’s) all of my teachers went above what the lesson plan stated because frankly they enjoyed teaching and wanted us to know more than just what the state prescribed. But JustMe..if you are only going to do just enough teaching…so that the kids will learn just enough to get by..then all you can expect from the kids you teach is just enough.

Trust me just enough teachers like you get on my nerves just as much as the too much homework parents of America.

By wwww

October 4, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Kym-mom:

Unfortunately, “as prescribed by the state of GA” is not the choice of most teachers, but instead what we must do - remember nclb? We are asked to teach to that child, the one that would otherwise be left behind. Don’t get me wrong, I think that’s what we should be doing and what most teachers have always done. The difference now is that we are held to unreasonable standards based on those students instead of on how well we challenge the on-level and gifted kids. I’m sorry, but a score on one test at the end of the school year doesn’t even scratch the surface of what we’ve done for the last several months.

I agree with you on some of your points, but most of the time, I feel I’m d-mned if I do, and d-amned if I don’t.

This isn’t whining, or throwing myself a pity party, becasue overall, I really enjoy my job. I am looking forward to the day we can get back to teaching instead of preparing for the test. Big difference.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Dave: Don’t lump ALL parents into one basket and I won’t lump ALL teachers into one basket. I did have some wonderful teachers that proved learning was fun and as a result I have a love of learning—oh yes, by the way I am also from the SOUTH-Georgia to be specific and I hold a MBA. Lumping people into categories proves ignorance. My children both learned-differently because they are different individuals and they have different ways of learning.

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom,

I am not sure where you live, but let’s talk a moment about the 80s compared to today. In the 80s there were no QCC as they exist today, and (in Gwinnett) no AKS. I have said this before, but the pacing guide I had for a geometry class I taught actually went TWICE as fast as the TEXTBOOK AUTHORS SUGGESTED!!! Throw in losing NEARLY 20 DAYS for testing, and many teachers — especially new ones — who stick to the pacing guide don’t have time to even teach what they are supposed to.

I didn’t stick to the pacing guide, but I also am not a new teacher and I knew my kids would be fine.

The system is broken in this regard. But to the extent that is is broken, don’t blame the teachers. In fact you might pity the teachers who try, without anyone to back them up, to take a stand. I took a stand, but many teachers won’t, thinking they can’t. Where’s jimd today? He talks about this all the time.

By thinking about teaching

October 4, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

I have a question that is unrelated to this topic, but Old Physics teacher’s post has made me want to ask.

I’m a 46 year old mom of older school age kids. I have a BS in accounting. My own children are super well behaved, straight A students, and their teachers love them. So I’ve never been a parent on the other side of a bad conference with a teacher.

I substitute teach 3 or 4 times a week in my local middle school and have for about 2 years. I love it! Some days I have classes that have behavior problems and I go home really tired and sometimes disgusted. But 90% of the time, I really enjoy the kids and I think I do a good job. I even enjoy the special ed kids most days. The kids tell their teachers they like me too. (Though often the really bad kids hate me.) Several people in the school have asked me if I was a teacher once, because my classrooms are usually pretty well under control. (Though not always.)

Because of my happy experience with subbing, I’ve been thinking about doing a post bac teaching certificate. But I’m worried that substitute teaching is very different from real teaching. Right now, I