Get Schooled

By Lee

October 4, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Why is there so much distrust?

From a parent’s perspective, maybe one reason is that there is not a week that goes by that we don’t hear about some controversy. You know, a teacher having sex with students, elementary schoolkids suspended for Tweety Bird keychains, an Eagle Scout suspended for having a camp axe in the bed of his pickup truck from the weekend camping trip, an honor student suspended for Motrine or Tylenol in her purse, another student suspended for having a Swiss Army knife (you know, one of those things with a corkscrew and fork/spoon).

Even on this blog, I read about administrators who fail to discipline students, teachers who pass students along from grade to grade who can’t do the work, when teachers do recommend a student to be retained, the principal overrules her and passes the student on.

Without calling names, I have also noted a couple of alleged teachers on this blog who I would not allow within 100 yards of my kids. They have no business being in a classroom.

Need I go on?

By ward

October 4, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

Parents… Build a bridge and get over it. We are not a day care service. Teach your kids some manners.

By Buy Danish

October 4, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

Now we have no idea from the article exactly what the child did to lead to this kind of punishment — if it actually occurred. Of course, that didn’t stop parents or teachers from taking sides.

Excellent observation, Bridget.

Everyone has an opinion. No one knows the facts.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Simple: because many parents now are terrible, terrible parents. I’ll be open and honest here for the sake of making a point.

When I was younger, especially in elem. school, I was diagnosed as ADHD. The school wanted my parents to dope me up with untold amounts of drugs (whatever was the flavor of the month at the time) in order to curb my rather disruptive behavior. My parents refused. They were older types, and they believed that some hard justice could bring about a change in my behavior much more effectively than any drugs could. Throughout elem. school I endured harsh punishments, groundings, and, god forbid, myriad encounters with my dad’s hands, belts, and/or brushes. Then a funny thing happened.

By the time I reached middle school, the misbehavior began to taper off. The number of detentions I received fell dramatically after sixth grade, and by the time I reached high school, I was on the straight and narrow. I was in all gifted classes, maintained an A/B average in each class, and never received another detention through four years of high school.

Magic? I think not.

My parents realized that in order to make me behave, they COULD NOT BE MY FRIEND. They had to do things that were, at times, unpleasant but necessary. They always knew that the ends would justify the means. Honestly, there were times they went too far, and there are things that they did that strained the relationship between us for years, but in the end I turned out pretty good. Now I instill the same values in my child, always remembering who is the parent, and who is the child. Because my parents made mistakes, I have a firm grasp of what they did right, and what they did wrong. I am a better parent for it.

Long story short, many parents today have no concept of this balance or this relationship with children. Their punishments are ineffectual, their backbones soft, and their primary goal is to be a friend and not a mentor. The two cannot always co-exist. They should be less concerned with how their children perceive them in the short term, and more concerned with how they turn out in the long run. Plain and simple.

I’ll save my digressions and other rants for later, but the bottom line is this: many parents today simply do not know how to parent. And many teachers today wish they did.

By gwinnett educator (formerly dekalb)

October 4, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this

It has to be an honest and collective effort on both sides of the coin to ensure students are doing what is expected of them. I have been teaching since the fall of 1996 and let me tell you, if it is just 1 or 2 chatterboxes (the least of my worries) that go on and on and a teacher can not deal with that without tape, then the teacher has some issues with classroom management. HOWEVER, how do you deal with its 15 of 21?

I am currently teaching 1st grade and let me tell you, although I feel liim in HEAVEN compared to the Dekalb county school I just left, it is still something to deal with. I have parents that want me to make sure their child eats all of their breakfast, make sure their child gets his/her lunch from their book bags. I have dealt with MUCH WORSE issues, but that simply can not be done. How do you cope and do your job when majority of your parents what you to do that for their child?

Turn that to behavior, how can a teacher do his/her job effectively? How can we handle 10 out of 21 (if not nore) unruly children that we can not discipline? We can not touch the children (and I dont want to because I have my own) we can NOT put them out of class…so what gives?

It is not totally the parents’ fault nor is it totally the teachers’ fault.

By myway

October 4, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

Oh please I forgot Cobb County school teachers, administrators, etc are perfect and NEVER are at fault. They also, can justify their their reasoning, they are in charge, they enjoy their authority and will use it any way they can to make themselves feel better about themselves. THEY HAVE NO ACCOUNTABILITY only the the AUTHORITY

By Old Physics Teacher

October 4, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

From my perspective after 15 years of teaching, 25 years in the private sector (retail), and 40 years as a parent:

My first year teaching I was told by my principal that I must make contact AT LEAST twice with a parent before he would intervene with my classroom discipline. I was told that first-year teachers tend to “write-up” minor discipline infractions and send the child to an administrator for what should be handled in the classroom. As I was a first-year teacher at the ripe old age of 43, and the same age as the principal, he told me that most first-year teachers were assumed to be “well-disciplined” students when they were students and unused to “normal” children acting “normally.” All he was trying to do was to force the teacher to learn to handle small problems by themselves.

As a parent of 4 children, on more than one occasion, my wife had to go to the school and talk to an administrator about my children’s “problems.” When the children got home from school, then the real discipline occurred. This was how discipline occurred in my home, my parent’s home, and my neighborhood’s homes. Naturally, I assumed that all parents raised their kids like I, and my neighbors, did.

Unfortunately, I had my eyes opened quickly. I found out that most children (mind – these were 13 to 18 year-olds) I disciplined were astounded that I was meting out discipline for such a “minor” occurrence. I thought they were just faking. They weren’t! They actually were astounded that I was going to punish them for the “little thing” that they did wrong! When I called the parents – generally after 6:00 PM at night, I found out why they were astonished. They treated their parents worse than they did me!! In one case I had a student that just wouldn’t shut up in class. She would talk, talk, talk. Even when I was trying to correct this child-woman, she wouldn’t stop talking. When I called her father to talk to him, she kept interrupting him trying to talk over both of us. He never said one word to her to tell her to keep quiet. She actually cursed at him with no intervention from him whatsoever.

Now, she WAS an extreme case. There were parents that were horrified by what their children did, and I never had a second problem from those children. And, in general, my classes have very few problem children, but over my 15-year, and counting, career I have seen many problem children from ALL socioeconomical backgrounds – rich, poor and middle-class. In every case that comes to mind, when I had a real problem-child, I had a real problem-parent. I repeat: some were poor, some were rich, but in all my cases, a problem child had a problem parent. I’m sure most teachers have run into this same situation. That’s why you see here what you see here. The problem parents say they don’t have problem children; it’s the teacher’s fault. The teachers all say, “I would NEVER tape a child’s mouth shut. I would think it; I would visualize it; I would dearly LOVE to do it, but I wouldn’t do it… but I sure understand that “teacher’s” motivation. There but for the grace of God, goes me.”

So after this long story, the reason we are diametrically opposed is this:
1) the teacher’s are just as horrified as the normal parents. The difference is that we can deeply empathize with that “after school” teacher. We visualize doing that every day to the problem children.
2) The normal parents are horrified because they can’t conceive any caring individual could do such a thing.
3) The problem parents have no idea they are the cause of the problem in the first place – they think they’re “normal” parents.

Now I’ve used up my entire week’s planning time in writing this. I have to go to work and also work late tonight to make up for the lost time.

Later

By Parent

October 4, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Well said V! My son was having problems in one class in middle school. The teacher and I communicated several times over a few weeks about it. Later I asked her how he was doing. Her reply? “He’s doing great. I can tell when there are consequences at home. All I have to do is ask him if I need to call his mom and he straightens up.”

Too many parents today take the attitude that the kid is being reprimanded at school so they don’t “need” to do anything at home. I have a different point of view, believing that I want the poor behavior to stop so I want it to make it as painful as possible in order to discourage bad behavior. (I don’t mean physical pain here.)

By SCY

October 4, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

Back in 1983, when I was in the 3rd grade my teacher did the exact same thing. I was being talkative and the teacher idn’t hesitate when I wouldn’t stop talking. Well I stopped after that. I didn’t even think anything of it…I never even told my parents and even if I did rather than going to the school to complain, I’m sure my parents would have punished me for misbehaving in school. Today’s children have no concept of what is appropriate behavior in the classroom and parents will defend almost anything their child does, no matter how outrageous. I’m not excusing the teacher for taping the child’s mouth shut, I would probably object if someone did it to my child, but the teacher may have feared the parents wouldn’t deal with the child’s behavior. If my child misbehaves I most certainly will deal with it. I was once a teacher, but was driven off by disruptive children. I am not a child’s parent and didn’t sign on to be a teacher to assume the role of surrogate parent. I had students who cursed at their parents in front of me and naturally the parents did nothing. So what’s a teacher to do when children don’t even respect their own parents?

By lopro

October 4, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

Most parents are terrible about supporting the teachers their little heathens are required to “teach.”

How can any learing occur when the kids know they have the right, bestowed by mommy and daddy, to do anything they want.

I wasn’t the perfect student in school and was appropriately punished. And no, I am not an old fart. I just believe that education is synonomous with “day-care” for these spoiled brats of suburbia.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

There is NO excuse for an adult to duct tape a childs mouth shut. Yes, there are always two sides to every story. Bottom line this falls under corporal punishment and unless the adult(parent) authorized it then the school systems after-school program should be in a world of trouble. With all the technology available today—call the parents cell, blackberry, e-mail, fax etc. Generally speaking kids in middle and elementary school do not want Mom or Dad notified and will straighten up pretty darn quickly when told their parents will be called—but you have to follow through—don’t give empty threats-they are very bright and know exactly how far they can push the envelope.
I did not sign on to be my childrens friend—I am their parent and as the sweatshirt my daughter made for me last Christmas states: Mom’s Rules—1) Mom is Always Right and 2) When Mom might be wrong refer to rule Number 1. My sons gift—Was also a Sweatshirt it read: When Momma Ain’t Happy, Ain’t Nobody Happy. Words to live by.

By t

October 4, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

Problem is parents only concentrate on the negative. For example, if I send an invitation to a parent to attend parent conferences, I don’t hear a thing. However, when their child goes home and tells their parents I have scolded them about bad behavior then I hear all about it.

By Shell

October 4, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

A longtime teacher and coach in the Atlanta school system once told me, “You cannot nurture what you cannot discipline.” A wise man was Coach.

By One

October 4, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

I don’t get it, nowhere in the story does it indicate the child misbehaved! Even when the mother went to the school, it says nothing about the administrators/teachers saying the child had misbehaved. So where are you all drawing this conclusion from? But wait, it’s a given that since this happened, it had to be the childs fault, right? Because he’s bad, and his mama is ignorant for not teaching him any manners, right? Now don’t get me wrong, there are some badly behaved kids out there, and some trifling parents too! Aren’t there also some psycho people who will (attempt) to harm (rape, kidnap, torture, kill)children no matter how the act? So before we start ranting and raving and sounding really ignorant, please get the facts.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Jane:

Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? Either way accomplishes the mission of shutting your brat up, and I’m cool with either.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

A few bad apples really do spoil the whole barrel. This is true for the parents and for the teachers. And, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree!

The problem is that the ‘bad apple’ parents that raise the ‘bad apple’ children impact all teachers and not just the ‘bad apple’ teachers.

Some parents are horrible. Parents do not require training or certification or anything. They just have had sex to have kids.

ALL teachers must be certified and trained. Are ALL teachers perfect? No - all teachers are human beings and human beings have issues.

Comparing today’s society to yester-year, today’s kids in general get less parenting. They get much of their ‘home lessons’ from TV, video games, etc. Note that this is not ALL kids, but quite a few.

Many parents either don’t parent due to lack of time (working multiple jobs, etc.) or because they have no clue how to parent (they would rather be their child’s friend, etc.).

Schools and teachers should not be expected to parent. There is enough to do without adding the parenting responsibility.

By Dave

October 4, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

This incident, the debate surrounding it, and the generally armed and dangerous state of affairs between teachers and parents these days is disappointing. Parents do often expect schools to be the end-all of education and child warehousing. Teachers do often point fingers at parents. The only people consistent in the mix are the kids… they are consistently losing out on the benefits of a good education.

As a teacher candidate at KSU, I hope I can retain my professionalism in the face of whatever. I think I will, because I will always remember to consider that parents don’t intentionally raise children who are “un-.” Parents often work 2 jobs and have no idea what or how to raise kids, especially if they come from substandard families themselves.

If we are ever to break the education/poverty cycle, it has to be through understanding, empathy, best practice-based strategies, and a general love of the kids. Accountability is one thing, but finger-pointing is something completely different.

By will

October 4, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

From a veteran teacher with life certification in Georgia, I can tell you that many parent conferences end abruptly when it gets into a “he said/she said.” It becomes counterproductive and I don’t waste my time playing their game. Parenting is the hardest job there is! With little discipline at home, some parents just won’t accept that their child is a problem in school.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

I teach on a block schedule and am responsible for my students for a mere 90 minutes. I have no control over what affects them outside of my classroom. I have clear rules and expectations posted and a portion of their grade includes work ethics (because employers expect this.)

I’ve had students bring joy,anger, frustration, enthusiasm, sadness, angst, confusion, indifference, fear, and other baggage to class. All of it affects their work and behavior. But for an hour and a half, I try very hard to teach them some drafting and to model the kind of workplace manners, attitudes and actions I want them to develop.

I am also a parent. It is very hard to accept my child’s shortcomings. But I learned early on to listen and weigh as many sides to the issues as were presented. I did not automatically assume my child was right or wrong. I wasn’t perfect but I did understand there is “kid truth” and “teacher truth” and both are tinted by perceptions of all involved.

I choose to be non-confrontational…even when it is nearly impossible to be. I choose to listen carefully and really try to understand what happened and what might have caused it to happen from the standpoints of both teacher and parent. I tolerate (sometimes too much perhaps) some conversation and movement in my classroom but my students know my limits. It works for me…for that 90 minutes.

I am an imperfect person teaching the imperfect children of imperfect people in an imperfect environment. But mostly, for that 90 minutes we are safe and at peace.

By Jay

October 4, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Man, stories like these make me never want to be a parent or a teacher. Good luck! I’ll be in the Bahamas living in sin.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Dave:

Get the HADES out of the Ed program at KSU before you are too far warped to be of any use to anybody in anything.

There is not a SINGLE WORSE Dept at KSU, and that is saying something if you look at some of the other departments! (I’m talking speficially the College of Humanities here.)

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

You know when I first posted I said there were a couple of teachers who posted on this blog who I wouldn’t want within a 100 yards of my kids. I didn’t want to call names and get an argument going. That is, until I read this:

“Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? Either way accomplishes the mission of shutting your brat up, and I’m cool with either.”

The sad (and scary) thing is that this person was a teacher and had access to children on a daily basis until he finally got his a55 fired.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

What was the question again. Oh yeah,

Why is there so much distrust?

Exhibit A, Jeff’s post above.

By unclefast

October 4, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Dave, I remember being idealistic 33 years ago. You have a lot to learn, sonny boy. And what ARE “best practice-based strategies?” After teaching for 27 years, I’ve observed that none of that crap works. It takes tough parents, as well as no-nonsense teachers and administrators.

By MamaS

October 4, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

In the “Good Ole Days” parents supported teachers. If a child got in trouble at school, they got in trouble at home. Parents came to parent conferences and PTA members were attended by both groups. Teachers could hug a student without being accused of sexual abusers. Room mothers were VIP’s. Now, the parent (usually single) treats the school and teacher as a free sitter service. “I’m paying your salary, so the little rascal is your problem from 8 until 2. And every American is lawsuit crazed. My last year of teaching I saw an 8-year-old walking down the hall way too close to the wall. I said, nicely. “Honey you need to walk further away from the wall. If someone opened a classroom door, you could get hit!”
Her reply “If anyone hits me, I’ll sue!”

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I would’ve had your kid in Alternative School before you could even THINK the word.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Dave, follow your heart. Go into whatever situation with your eyes open but your heart open as well. Go back to your own high school and talk with the teachers who were hardest on you (you know, the ones who demanded and got your best no matter how begrudgingly you gave it.) Learn from them and use what works best for you given your own temperment and personality. Be secure in your knowledge of the subject matter, consistent in your discipline/consequences, diligent in documenting your successes and failures, and flexible enough to adapt your methods to those “teachable moments” that can and do arise.

Don’t go into any job, career, position starry-eyed and expecting to move mountains. Be realistic but open. You might be assigned a mentor teacher but stay aware of all the others. You can learn quite a bit from the good, the bad, and the indifferent. Learn the culture of your school and figure out how to fit into it and how to make your own statement.

Wow! I think I’ve cornered the cliche’ market but you get my drift.

I LOVE what I do. I have heartaches and highpoints. I’ve found what works for me and I’ve done just that for 33 years (with the requisite adaptations du jour.)

I’m glad you want to be a teacher. You won’t win all your battles but you’ll win enough that it will be worth it.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I don’t think so.

Tell you what, I have raised one child to adulthood, who is a college graduate and is now a successful and productive member of society. Her younger sister is an honor student at a top-notch private school and has a world of opportunity awaiting her.

You, on the other hand, have done nothing but spout hot air and got your a55 run off from a small, rural school system that was desperate for Math teachers. You know nothing about parenting and apparently, very little about teaching.

Come talk to me in a few years after you have actually done something.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Also, a note to Lee in particular and parents in general:

If you will discipline your kids at home, I won’t have to use “unorthodox” discipline methods at school, and we will ALL be happier!

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Come on, Old School. My previous post had more and better cliches…..

A bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

LOL

By Jane

October 4, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Jeff: My brat as you referred to him is nothing of the sort. He did his share of obnoxious items-however his teachers and I communicated. They did not have the Right to duct tape his mouth or to knock his teeth out. However, if I got called; he knew his behind was mine. I do not play-I believe in dicipline and one of the items referred to in my previous post the Christmas gifts-we chose to make our gifts to each other. My son is 29 and my daughter is 28 and both are wonderful adults and are raising their children with the same principles that they were raised with. No legal problems and they have 2 children each and are very much so hands on. so once again you show your ignorance by not knowing what you are speaking about.

By Sarah

October 4, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You’re such a tough guy..oooh, you’ll shut the mouth of some 5th grader. Wow, i’m sure you love to lord over the little ones.

You’re probably a twenty-three year old little punk, who loves playing the tough guy. Someone needs to toss you over their knee and teach you some discipline!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Lee:

I’ve done more in 25 years than you’ve done in 50.

I don’t have to brag about my kids. I achieved great heights. I don’t have to live through my kids like a sniveling little coward of a boy.

In the words of a man who pretty much all acknowledge is one of the hardest workers in his industry, “You want some, COME GET SOME!”

By sarah

October 4, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I’m glad I know that this Jeff guy doesn’t work in the classroom. you’re right he’s exhibit A why you don’t automatically assume the teacher is correct.

A lot of the younger generation of teachers are not the lot we grew up., stern but fair older women with years of experience and their own families. Instead, we get kids who go home and play video games, justlike the kids they teach. Or go get drunk with their students on the weekend. Good lord, you want me to place the care of my children in their hands - WITHOUT QUESTION?

not gonna happen.

By Old School

October 4, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Aha JustMe! You’ve thrown down the gauntlet! The monkey is now on my back…let the chips fall where they may.

The game’s afoot!

You will notice that I painted my pictures with a far more narrow brush than most other posters. We all know every situation is different and while there are far too many bad parents, maybe we just don’t hear too much about the good ones (we don’t like to brag about our parenting skills.) The bad stuff sells papers despite our cries for “More GOOD news!” We really just want to pick at the scabs and get them to bleed a little more so we can blame somebody.

We teachers just need to do our best and we parents just need to do the same. One kid at a time…one class at a time…one whatever at a time. That’s how we’ll change the world.

You know…it’s like how you eat an elephant…one bite at a time!

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Dang, sounds like a bunch of thugs waiting to rumble………all over something you don’t know very much about!! Way to go people!! Now you’re acting just like the Rethuglicons in office!!!! Ahhh, the land of the free and the home of the berated!!!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Sarah:

You’re missing the point:

If you (the parent) will shut his mouth, I (the teacher) won’t have to.

Neither one of us WANTS me to have to shut his mouth. But unlike most parents these days, I actually have a pair and don’t mind doing things I’d rather not do if I am forced to do them.

Course, that goes back to single parents most often being mothers.

And boys like Lee that have to be their child’s best friend so that they can live vicariously through them.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

“Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? … I’m cool with either.”

“If you will discipline your kids at home, I won’t have to use “unorthodox” discipline methods at school”

Jeff, the more you post, the more ridiculous you appear.

Part of being a parent is to limit the exposure of your children to psychopaths and others who would do them harm. Thankfully, for all parties concerned, our paths have never crossed.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Jeff; Just curious-exactly what do you deem to be the: GREAT Achivements of your life. 25 years is not all that much and as they say—Boy do you have a lot to learn. I can only hope that you do learn and don’t continue to be the condesending arragont blow hard you are proporting yourself to be on this blog.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Dang:

I’m going to openly acknowledge that I really could use a good fight today, though I do need it to be physical.

FAR too much stress going on, mostly relating directly to the wedding.

I just have to survive the next 9 days. Problem is, it gets harder and harder every day! I can honestly say that I have NEVER been under this much pressure, and my life hasn’t exactly been the easiest around!

By Freddy K.

October 4, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Don’t really care one way or the other. If a child needs punishing then put it on them, if the deserve rewarding then put it on them. The rest is bullchit. WAH WAH WAH YAK YAK YAK. Bottom line be a parent, teach the children respect and the improtance of education. They have enough friends of their own.

By Freddy K.

October 4, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Don’t really care one way or the other. If a child needs punishing then put it on them, if the deserve rewarding then put it on them. The rest is bullchit. WAH WAH WAH YAK YAK YAK. Bottom line be a parent, teach the children respect and the importance of education. They have enough friends of their own.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you’ll end up in a body bag, or better, floating in some unknown body of water, if you try that mess with the right (or should I say, wrong) child! I’m sure that’s the “keyboard courage” talking! HAHAHA

By Old School

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I had a student back in ‘89-‘93 who believed every word I spoke…even on Wednesdays (my day for lying.) He never challenged anything and frankly, that scared me. His family was not dysfunctional nor did it fit any negative stereotype at all. His parents were involved and informed and raised him very well.

When I learned he wanted to attend Georgia Tech in Mechanical Engineering, I made it my goal to get him to stand up to me. I baited him everyway I could. I disagreed with him ESPECIALLY when he was right. I was worse than the worse student I ever taught.

One day he had evidently had enough. When I answered his question incorrectly, he YELLED AT ME! Shocked me into dead silence with my mouth hanging open! Embarrassed? I sure was but delighted as well. It had taken all 4 years but I was confident he could survive Ga Tech. The rest of the year was wonderful. We could argue/discuss/disagree and get the rest of the class involved. Some of my best moments occurred at top volume in those days.

He very much survived Tech and is doing very well.

Jeff, I sincerely hope you have found the career that best suits YOU. Teaching high school kids is my perfect cup of tea. Maybe it will be Dave’s too.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Monie:

I’ve defeated people more powerful than you with my eyes closed. Again, “you want some, COME GET SOME”.

Threatening death is something I’ve faced from people both better and more powerful than you, and at least they had the courage to do it to my face.

Talk about “keyboard courage”…

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Sigh, Jeff,

You’ve mentioned before that you have anger issues, and it’s not hard to see why. I’m not sure how you think these boastful comments and claims of intelligence help to support your claims (whatever they may be at the time). Physical taunts and threats don’t really mean a whole lot over the internet. Who knows, maybe JustMe is a ninja in real life and can kill you with one glance, or SET knows jujitsu and is a national champion. Calm down Jeff, and leave some of the extremism out of your posts.

To everyone else, You have to understand that teachers, at times, can be frustrated by students that exhibit very little discipline. While I would never condone a teacher who duct tapes the mouth of a child shut, I do agree that at times it is hard to not turn into a raging Vesuvius of anger towards some kids. There IS a discipline gap, that’s for sure, but I agree with what some others have said about the negative view of teachers (thanks to the news jumping all over ever report of corrupt or illicit teacher scandals).

I ask you this: As bad as those stories might be, compare it to the far superior volume of stories about bad parenting — children dying in hot cars, abandoned, beaten, neglected, orphaned, involved in gangs, and teen pregnancy.

Point made.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Jeff: Congratulations on the wedding.

I do wish you the best. I would appreciate your staying out of the schools as a teacher if this is your honest attitude toward children.

You need to remember that you were once a child and I am quite sure you did things that your parents were not 100% appreciative of however, they loved you anyway. Parents today are not only single Moms.

Single Dads deal with the same discipline issues however, as you stated they are not in the classroom and have to weigh what is being told from both sides of any issue. When a teacher wants to be right and the child wants to be right neither one is going to say anything that sheds themself in a negative light. This is where the parent comes in and listens to both sides-draws the conclusion that somewhere down the middle is what actually happened. Both teacher and child can be right and both can be wrong in varying degrees. Sometimes a third party’s view is needed.
I do not think the teacher is always right. I believe in hearing the views of the situation from both sides. And always will.

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Jeff, hope it gets better for you. Or at least, find a non-violent way to relax, relate, release! Good luck! Woosah!!!!

By high school teacher

October 4, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Old School and Just Me,

Great comments. I concur with all you have said. As for cliches, well, my mind is slow today, so I’ll just throw in the towel! :)

I think that there is not as much of a battle between parents and teachers as the media likes to suggest there is. While I have had a few parent confrontations along the way, most of my students’ parents want the same thing for their child as I want.

That said, too often, some teachers forget that their job is to help students, not to trap them. Using duct tape to shut a child’s mouth is completely unacceptable (so is slapping their teeth out). Uncontrolled behavior is not a problem, but rather a symptom of a larger problem. Yes, it is our job to get to know our students to see why they act the way they do. Yes, it is ous job to help students. Yes, it is our job to make sure that they take their lunch out of their backpacks. Yes, it is our job to correct behaior and try to prevent the same behavior. YES, IT IS OUR JOB TO BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO HELP STUDENTS. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DO THAT, THEN FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, OR GO TEACH IN PRIVATE SCHOOL OR AT A COLLEGE.

Teaching is easy when all of the students want to learn. Making students want to learn (or at least making them understand the importance of an education) is the true art of teaching.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Jeff, WTF, dude I don’t know you (just like you don’t know me or anyone else here), so what does a face to face have to do with anything?! H$ll, go roll ya one and chill, cause you don’t know me like that!!! Puff, puff, pass…………sounds like you’ve already been dabbling!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jane:

I trust students as far as I can throw them assuming a 3 ton weight is tied to them.

In other words, I don’t trust students AT ALL.

Parents would be wise to do the same.

Most teachers do.

By Monie

October 4, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

And Jeff, just for the record, that wasn’t a threat dear, it was a PROMISE!!!! Ever cross my childs path with that attitude and you will see. But I doubt if that would ever happen, so toke away!!

By Dang

October 4, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Why in hades are you a teacher again?!!! Sounds like you have way too many issues to be in the classroom, maybe you should work with lab rats or something. With that attitude (stress or not) you have no business being around anybody’s child (no matter how well behaved they are). Get a grip, or get some therapy!

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

HST:

Nope. Teachers’ jobs is to present the lesson. And deal with discipline as they must.

NOTHING MORE.

If “as they must” means duct taping a kids mouth closed and hog-tieing him to his seat, I’m going to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt that nothing else could be done - though I AM going to want to hear the reasoning.

I don’t mind “unorthodox” methodologies if the reasoning is clear. My attitude always has been and always shall be “Get the job done.”

Again, if parents will do their job relating to discipline, the teacher’s job in that area is already done.

If the teacher can be “nice” about it and simply tell the kid “be quiet” and the kid complies, EXCELLENT.

If the teacher has to do anything short of sending the kid to the hospital, again, I’m going to want to hear their reasoning, but I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now, when a kid winds up in the hospital- at THAT point, the teacher has gone too far.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Jeff, your comments on this blog speak volumes about your maturity. I just hope your future bride has thought long and hard about marrying someone with such obvious anger issues.

As far as achievements? One day, maybe you will realize that buildings crumble, words fade from memory, but our legacy lives on through our children.

What will your legacy be? Will it be a house full of laughter and love or will you be a bitter old man still challenging people to a fight over the internet?

Think about it.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Jeff: your statement “I don’t trust students AT ALL” is one of the saddest things I have ever read.

You have forgotten in your 25 years what it is to be a student or a child. I am so very sorry that you do not have happy memories to look back on. Everyone should have somethng that they can look back on and have a chuckle/laugh about—something like a “Serious infraction—at least at the time—that now seems so minor in the grand scheme of things.

My advise for you find something positive/happy and look for those things. Yes, not everything is wonderful and yes, sometimes you have to take things/stories with a grain of salt. Parents know when they are being lied to—sometimes we even allow them to get away with it because their is a lesson attached—one lie begets another and after a while trying to remember who you told what to—just isn’t worth it.

I didn’t have very many rules with my kids but one was NO LIES. Yes, they both tried and got caught. Not again. WE discuss things, I give my opinion. When they were younger, knowing what they were thinking, giving options and knowing they were headstrong and going to do it their way anyway—it at least gave me enough time to be able to deal with the fall out and be there to help pick up the pieces.

I have let them be in charge of their lives with input since they were teens. Now they guide and mold their children by allowing them to make their choices and having to live with the consequences.

As I have told them over and over again—Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Monie:

I notice you’re not making any moves towards my office.

“Keyboard courage” indeed.

I don’t threaten to hurt people, let alone kill them.

I tell them exactly what will happen in a given situation and let them choose how to proceed.

And I’m telling you now: I have never fought someone that I did not defeat. If you want to be the next to try, come on down.

By disciplined

October 4, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

I encourage every parent and teacher to read Parenting by the Book by Dr. John Rosemond. This book will allow you to see how we have gotten into this situation. It gives helpful information on how to fix it. We need a parenting revolution. This book will help everyone see why school reform has not and will not work. If you are a frustrated teacher or parent this book is a must.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Jeff, how tall are you?

5’3” ?

5’0” ?

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. I’ll shut up now! I’m such a child sometimes.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

This debate regarding Monie, Jeff, and others highlights a real issue….

Teachers are supposed to somehow maintain classroom management without having any real authority to do so. The students know that they DON’T have to listen to the teacher or do what he/she says because the teacher has no authority.

In addition, when the teacher contacts the parent or even the administrator(s)….most of the time they side with the child and fault the teacher.

It is a no-win situation for the teacher in those cases.

This is paramount to a cliche used in industry….. “don’t give me the responsibility unless you also give me the authority.”

Some parents (and administrators) insist that teachers have the responsibility to take care of their child but do not give the teachers any authority to do so. It is just not fair to the teacher.

So, when a teacher finally does “snap” should we really wonder why? Won’t you “snap” after a while under those conditions? Teachers are human.

Personally, I loved that this child got duck tape on their mouth. As I understood it, the child had a choice and the child picked the duck tape. How is that the teachers fault?

By Lee

October 4, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

V, it doesn’t matter. Everyone on the internet is 6’-5”, 250 pounds of solid ex-special forces, hand-to-hand combat instructor, third degree black belt muscle.

Just like me. :)

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Jane:

From early on, the only true bright spot in my life was looking forward to meeting my wife at some point.

Now that I have, as then, my love for her is often the only thing that keeps me going. (Note that I didn’t say that SHE is - honestly, right now, she is a source of the stress!)

I have never been giddy-level “happy”, nor will I ever be. It is simply not in the cards for me. Instead, I live a life fighting the battles so that those around me can be happy. And I find contentment in knowing that they are happy.

There is much to be said for contentment. It is all I have ever truly sought after. That, and the love of my wife.

You may think from my posts, especially today, that I am some kind of raging volcano of anger. Truly, I am not. Truly, I would rather live in peace. To be able to at least SEEK happiness.

But I fight when needed. More accurately, I stand. If someone chooses to bring the fight to me, I prove that I will not be defeated. If they choose to leave in the direction they came, fine. If they choose to leave by continuing on, fine. But as Martin Luther said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

I wish I could become a relic. A forgotten warrior. But I cannot, because people won’t let me.

In Braveheart, William Wallace says “I came home to raise crops, and God willing, a family. If I can live in peace, I will.”

I left Atlanta because I was tired of the fighting. I wanted to do my job (raise crops) and find my wife and start a family. But the fights have continued, and so I know that they always will. I will never live in peace. I can only hope that someday I will rest in peace.

And that fact saddens me FAR beyond any other.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

LOL

“I have never fought someone that I did not defeat.”

I can type creative things, too.

“I often wrestle great white sharks to a standstill, and then let them go.”

“One time I did a backflip off of a moving car and landed in a giant pile of lasagna.”

“Angelina Jolie comes over to my house all the time, but nothing happens. I don’t want to ruin our friendship.”

“I invented the toothbrush.”

“If a tree falls in the forest, it actually sounds like Beethoven’s 5th.”

“The last time I ate Jell-o, I found that I had extraordinary jumping powers.”

“I am unable to say the word ‘banana’ without laughing.”

“2+2=4, except in Cleveland. Nothing makes sense there.”

“I made one of the guards at Buckingham palace talk by showing him a picture of a lemon.”

“I saw two tigers get in a slap fight once. The orange one won.”

By Keeping it simple

October 4, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Many of the teachers today are not well trained, have no incentive to be good teachers, too bound by policy and bureaucracy; and some who are downright incompetent.

Many of the parents out here today are too self consumed, detached, and uneducated themselves to the point that they are ineffective as it relates to their own children’s education.

I guess that about covers it.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Your future wife will not always be a source of the stress in your life. You could choose to look at the stress as a happy thing—your future wife wants everything PERFECT for both of you on your wedding day. Life is about perceptions. How we chose to see things and how we chose to take our stand.
I do hope that you will find the peace you seek. I will tell you from my own self discovery—you can not FIX everything for everyone—you only serve to make yourself miserable. If you are happy with yourself then those around you will also be happy.
I am sorry you felt the Atlanta area was not for you. I can honestly call myself a true Southern Bell or by the acronoym (GRITS—Girls Raised in the South). Happiness either is or is not. I do hope that one day you will find it. I will state that my life has had ups and true downs. I know it has made me the person I am today and I am a better human being for living through both. If you do not know truly bad times how can you accurately appreciate the good times?
Right now my good times and happiness include my husband, children, grandchildren-extended family and knowing that I have managed to reach most of the goals I set for myself.
My wedding wish for you is that you know True Happiness and Joy within your lifetime.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Keeping it simple,

You should have added “some who are downright incompetent” to your paragraph about parents, also.

By Kym-Mom

October 4, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Old School I agree with alot of your earlier comments. No parenting is not like it was when I was a parent. But I really laughed when I read yur comments on teachers preparing these children for the workforce. Right now in the workforce there are three different generations, with three very different ideas on work ethic. We live in a blame everyone but me society. Where people (adults) will not take responsiblity for anything they do wrong. Everyone is looking to place blame. I mean look at the comments on this blog. Teachers will easily lay the blame at the feet of the kids or their parents without frankly looking at their own track record. I mean teaching was considered a noble profession but now it is a job that anyone with a degree in basket weaving could do. Forgive me, but I hold those who feel “the calling to teach” to a higher standard. It is pretty simple for me. I am giving you charge over the greatest gift God has given me for about what 40 hours a week? I expect you to recoginze that what you say or do at the front of that classroom has just as much impact as what I do at home. If you are having a bad day, your hip flask is empty, didnt get laid the night,whatever the problem maybe..then I still expect you to suck it up and do your job. There seems to be a whole lot of whining and less teaching going on everyday.

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Here’s another thing, because I agree Kym mom:

Teaching is a calling, and there are many of us who are passionate and do a (d-mn) good job. To that end, our job is NOT simply to present the lesson. Our job is to be role models. To set good examples. To nurture, where appropriate. To make our classroom a safe haven. To understand that there is more to the kids’ worlds than the hours (or minutes) they spend with us each day. So share more than subject-matter knowledge, but also a sense of how to act, how to speak. I teach as many life lessons as I do math lessons. And by God, I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!

By Tired of Teaching

October 4, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Where do I start? Hmmmmm…………

I’ve been teaching for 11 years and over this time I’ve become more frustrated with every passing year by the outright disrespect of children. I’ve changed school systems but that doesn’t help. Now, I will say that when I taught in a small private school, I was in hog heaven, but I was being paid barely over minimum wage.

I am the parent of two kids. Nope, they ain’t even close to being perfect. My son, who is ADHD and gifted, is a handful to say the least. My daughter, well, she’s older but still talks too much. As a parent and a teacher, I fully understand both roles. And they are the most difficult jobs that exist. I rarely get any “real” teaching done because I am disciplining kids all day. Wake up parents! Some of your kids are unruly and disgustingly disrespectful. And stop blaming teachers because your kid is failing when they don’t DO any work!

I give! It’s the only way I can keep my sanity and raise my own children.

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom

And I, as a teacher, expect that YOU would have first done YOUR job BEFORE your child walks into MY room. That means teaching them to respect authority and adults, have common manners, know to obey rules, have ethics and morals.

If YOU have done YOUR job, then I can do MY job.

Secondly, I expect you to support me, the adult and authority in the room, unless there are extreme circumstances. Otherwise, you will be undermining my authority and my ability to do MY job in MY classroom.

Finally, I expect for YOU to ensure that YOUR child does THEIR work and THEY study in YOUR home as assigned by me. Otherwise, don’t complain to me that their grade isn’t as high as you would like.

If you can do those things, I promise to do my part and we will get along just fine. In addition, I would assure you that your child will learn the content as prescribed by the State of GA.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Tired of Teaching: I commend you for knowing that you are tired. I wish you the best in your future endevors.
Last year my grandson had a teacher that was tired/fed up/should have resigned and didn’t—needless to say we have been spending a lot of time reintroducing him to the concept that Learning is Fun.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

JustMe, and on the other end of the spectrum, we parents can do everything right and then our child walks into the classroom from he11 with a psychopath like Jeff for a teacher.

Bridget asks why is there so much distrust. I say blind trust is a dangerous thing.

By dave

October 4, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

The problem ALL is with the parents….junior or missy does not get a good grade….they make a “stink” about it….

But the teachers in GA don’t get off scott free….why is GA always at the bottom of the barrel with test scores (SAT’s)…..

Ther are schools in the Bronx (NYC) that get better test scores and have higher graduation rates then some of the best schools in GA….trust me…if I had a child…when they would get to school age…I would move to the North East….the South is a “joke”….can’t figure out why….but it is…and it’s NOT getting better….it’s EXACTLY the same as it was 12 years ago when I frost moved here……tell me why….

By dave

October 4, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

The problem ALL is with the parents….junior or missy does not get a good grade….they make a “stink” about it….

But the teachers in GA don’t get off scott free….why is GA always at the bottom of the barrel with test scores (SAT’s)…..

Ther are schools in the Bronx (NYC) that get better test scores and have higher graduation rates then some of the best schools in GA….trust me…if I had a child…when they would get to school age…I would move to the North East….the South is a “joke”….can’t figure out why….but it is…and it’s NOT getting better….it’s EXACTLY the same as it was 12 years ago when I first moved here……tell me why….

By Old School

October 4, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Kym-mom, you may not be aware of this but CTAE instructors are required to have Advisory Committees comprised of folks from business and industry. Members of my own committee are employees and employers from area industries. Each school year they complete a survey that gives me feedback on what skills, knowledge, work ethics they expect of potential employees. We meet twice a year (more often if they desire) and I visit their workplaces several times each year. This keeps me current and realistic. I am also a member of our area technical college’s program advisory committee which puts me in contact with even more industry reps. I am very aware of the changing workplace. I am also required to keep abreast of the changing technology in that workplace. This I do by attending workshops and classes offered by industry.

Learning is a life-long commitment by those of us who honestly try to give our best to our students. Where I am deficient, I have no problem bringing in experts. Example: civil engineers have volunteered their time in my class as I have limited surveying experience.

I do not presume to speak for all CTAE instructors though. And I encourage you to hold ME to the highest standard. I expect nothing less from my employers…the taxpayers of Georgia. I will continue to “…suck it up…” as you so eloquently put it and do my job.

And as for “If you are having a bad day, your hip flask is empty, didnt get laid the night,whatever the problem maybe….” I am offended. Comments like that are uncalled for. You do not know me nor I you. There are myriad other ways of stating your opinion without that.

By high school teacher

October 4, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Old School, my husband is a CTAE teacher. We academic teachers could learn a thing or two from the CTAE teachers.

By Kym-Mom

October 4, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

As prescribed by the State of GA.

That always amazes me. Teachers who love to teach but I will only teach what they tell them to.

When I was in high school(back in the late 80’s) all of my teachers went above what the lesson plan stated because frankly they enjoyed teaching and wanted us to know more than just what the state prescribed. But JustMe..if you are only going to do just enough teaching…so that the kids will learn just enough to get by..then all you can expect from the kids you teach is just enough.

Trust me just enough teachers like you get on my nerves just as much as the too much homework parents of America.

By wwww

October 4, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Kym-mom:

Unfortunately, “as prescribed by the state of GA” is not the choice of most teachers, but instead what we must do - remember nclb? We are asked to teach to that child, the one that would otherwise be left behind. Don’t get me wrong, I think that’s what we should be doing and what most teachers have always done. The difference now is that we are held to unreasonable standards based on those students instead of on how well we challenge the on-level and gifted kids. I’m sorry, but a score on one test at the end of the school year doesn’t even scratch the surface of what we’ve done for the last several months.

I agree with you on some of your points, but most of the time, I feel I’m d-mned if I do, and d-amned if I don’t.

This isn’t whining, or throwing myself a pity party, becasue overall, I really enjoy my job. I am looking forward to the day we can get back to teaching instead of preparing for the test. Big difference.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Dave: Don’t lump ALL parents into one basket and I won’t lump ALL teachers into one basket. I did have some wonderful teachers that proved learning was fun and as a result I have a love of learning—oh yes, by the way I am also from the SOUTH-Georgia to be specific and I hold a MBA. Lumping people into categories proves ignorance. My children both learned-differently because they are different individuals and they have different ways of learning.

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom,

I am not sure where you live, but let’s talk a moment about the 80s compared to today. In the 80s there were no QCC as they exist today, and (in Gwinnett) no AKS. I have said this before, but the pacing guide I had for a geometry class I taught actually went TWICE as fast as the TEXTBOOK AUTHORS SUGGESTED!!! Throw in losing NEARLY 20 DAYS for testing, and many teachers — especially new ones — who stick to the pacing guide don’t have time to even teach what they are supposed to.

I didn’t stick to the pacing guide, but I also am not a new teacher and I knew my kids would be fine.

The system is broken in this regard. But to the extent that is is broken, don’t blame the teachers. In fact you might pity the teachers who try, without anyone to back them up, to take a stand. I took a stand, but many teachers won’t, thinking they can’t. Where’s jimd today? He talks about this all the time.

By thinking about teaching

October 4, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

I have a question that is unrelated to this topic, but Old Physics teacher’s post has made me want to ask.

I’m a 46 year old mom of older school age kids. I have a BS in accounting. My own children are super well behaved, straight A students, and their teachers love them. So I’ve never been a parent on the other side of a bad conference with a teacher.

I substitute teach 3 or 4 times a week in my local middle school and have for about 2 years. I love it! Some days I have classes that have behavior problems and I go home really tired and sometimes disgusted. But 90% of the time, I really enjoy the kids and I think I do a good job. I even enjoy the special ed kids most days. The kids tell their teachers they like me too. (Though often the really bad kids hate me.) Several people in the school have asked me if I was a teacher once, because my classrooms are usually pretty well under control. (Though not always.)

Because of my happy experience with subbing, I’ve been thinking about doing a post bac teaching certificate. But I’m worried that substitute teaching is very different from real teaching. Right now, I can send a kid out of the class for talking and they go straight to ISS. (I don’t,but I can. And they know that.) I also do not deal with parents ever. I have none of the tedious paperwork required of teachers. All I do is teach someone else’s plans. Its the teaching that I enjoy and the kids. And I have none of the bad stuff I read about here to deal with.

Should I do this, or is subbing so different from being an actual teacher that I can’t even really compare the two? Is it laughable to real teachers that a person who subs and enjoys it thinks she knows enough about teaching to give it a try? I hope this makes sense. Thanks for reading it. I appreciate your advice. I am on the fence.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Kym-mom:

I took a stand against Bobby Jenkins. And I was made an example of.

It is interesting to note that less than half of the RCMS teachers from last year are there now…

Also, as far as “just enough” goes: A) Here’s an idea: MAKE YOUR KID DO HIS HOMEWORK. It’ll save a TON of class time! B) As has been mentioned, in the days of NCLB, you really can’t do anything that isn’t on the test. C) Due to parents like you, kids are flat-out lazy. If you try to introduce a new concept that you find interesting, their first question is “why do we have to do this?”. Again, thinking that they don’t have to listen to the teacher. I always tell them “Because I’m going to test you on it at somepoint, and the more you complain about it, the harder that test will be.” And yet they take the hardest tests I can devise!

By jim d

October 4, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Just a couple of thoughts on this blog.

1) jeff—eat something and then take your meds.

2) most children do not act at home the way they do at school. Expecting a parent to be there to guide them is as unreasonable as asking the teachers to do the students laundry.

3)parents and teachers alike shoulder the responsability of teaching our youth, so both sides need to quit b-itchin and “git er done”

4) jeff—-TAKE some MORE meds. and chill dude. You’re gonna stroke out by the time you’re 30.

By WhataJoke

October 4, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

If a Parent had duct-taped her childs mouth she would be hauled off to jail. Why do you people support a teacher, when you would be outraged if a parent had done the exact same thing.

I think the teacher should be charged with cruelty to children and have his/her teaching credentials revolked.

What are you say to the child? My teacher can be cruel to me, but my parents aren’t allowed.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

jim:

Welcome back. And I did eat. Now I have a massive headache, so I AM about to take some meds.

I swear though, surviving these next 9 days may be the single biggest achievement of my life, and considering some of the other things I’ve survived, THAT is saying something!

By educator

October 4, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

current teacher,

I see it everyday, no respect, cursing, lying, fighting, talking, refusing to sit and learn etc….. Students for the most part do not care. Parents, remember what your role is, then we can better identify if it is the students or professionals. I walk in the building to cursing and leave to it. There was a student today that called a teacher a bit**. No respect and the longer I teach the less respect I have for parents.

The only reasons that the politicians will not call out the parents is for fear of losing votes. Maybe the politicians will realize that most of these types of parents do not vote so CALL IT THE WAY YOU SEE IT PERDUE and all other government officials.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff: You took a stand against Bobby Jenkins and were made and example of???

By ITP Mom

October 4, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

JustMe: As usual, your broad sweeping generalizations undercut your arguments. For example, you said, “In addition, when the teacher contacts the parent or even the administrator(s)….most of the time they side with the child and fault the teacher.”

I can’t respond regarding the administrator(s); however, I disagree with your comment that most of the time the parents side with the child and fault the teacher and most of the parents I know would disagree with you as well.

Personally, I contact my son’s teacher(s) at the beginning of each school year and either have a face to face or phone conversation regarding his behavior and any problems that we may have had in the past (i.e., my son likes to talk and also gets so excited when he knows the answer that he shouts it out without waiting his turn). I ask the teacher to let me know immediately if she is having a problem with that behavior or another one. Last year the teachers and I came up with a consistent reward/removal of priviledge system that really worked. My son’s behavior is much improved this year.

Finally, I am so grateful to all of you teachers who are doing a great job and teaching children everyday. I know you have a very hard job and I am so thankful that you chose to be a teacher. I know that several of my teachers made a difference in my life and I respect you so much for what you do.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

WhataJoke:

Actually, I read today’s article where it specifically said that a magistrate judge had ruled that “no crime occurred”.

Personally, when it comes to parents disciplining their kids:

As long as the kid doesn’t have to go to the hospital, I don’t even question it. If the kid has to go to the hospital, I question it and possibly send the adult involved there if need be.

By jim d

October 4, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Actually Jeff, the next nine days will be a piece of cake compared to what you will endure for the next 50-60 years. :0, (i didn’t say that out loud did I?)

CHILL DUDE—it ain’t nuthin but a thang.

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Bobby Jenkins == the Superintendent of Randolph County Schools, where I worked.

I called him out on some of the idiotic things that happen in that system. (More accurately, I began talking to the community directly about why these things were idiotic and how we could change them. Only after he made the fight personal did I begin ACTUALLY calling him out specifically.)

He (obviously) didn’t like this, and made an example of me by making my life a living HADES the last few months I worked for him, before I finally had enough and told him he could take the job and stuff it where the sun don’t shine.

Didn’t help matters that he wanted my job for his daughter from the get-go.

By Janine

October 4, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Thinking about teaching I did exactly what you are contemplating. Although I was not a sub, but a paraprofessional, 5 days a week, but still not as much responsibility as a classroom teacher. I decided to go back and got a Masters and went to teach in middle school [I had been in elementary as a para]. I triple loved it for years and years. I loved the kids, the job, the colleagues. In my subject [reading] my kids were ALWAYS give pre and post tests to see if our methods were successful. There were very VERY few cases in which there was not tremendous progress after instruction from August til May. Then, ENTER NCLB and my life and the life of my students [all students] changed forever. Before I could blink an eye, the pre and post testing was done away with,and the NCLB testing was law.We were no longer teaching the love and value of reading, using great literature…but I was reading from a script and the students were responding [in unison/ on the cue of a dog training clicker!!!!! After the 3rd year of this, the meeting for those teachers planning to retire numbered 500…and many more just moved on. Sad, so sad!!!!

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

I tried to post this earlier but got some strange error.

Back on topic …

I usually love most of my parents, but I have been burned on occasion. When that happens, it can be overwhelming, but there is no excuse to take anything out on the students. Ever. To see that a teacher duct-taped a child’s mouth is not surprising – but it is horrifying. (There are always going to be people who can’t do a good job, who can’t maintain discipline, etc.) The problem is that teaching is a profession where all of us would like 100% rates of teachers who can maintain their cool and clearly that won’t always happen.

On the more general topic of parent-teacher interaction, 99,9% of the time I have had good experiences. But there are always overzealous parents, and how they manifest that (good intent) can sometimes create a big breakdown. I try to step back and remember that even the parents who have been horrific were still trying to be their child’s best advocate — which is, after all their job.

In my career, I have had two kinds of bad experiences. The first kind is a parent/set of parents for whom I am just “next in line.” They have a particular issue that they have, for, whatever reason, taken up again and again (sometimes rightfully so, I might add.) It stinks being on the receiving end, having your job threatened, etc., but in my experiences the administrators have always told me that it isn’t me – there’s been a list before me, and surely will be a list after me.

The other kind of “bad” parent experience, for lack of a better way to put it, is the overzealous parent/set of parents who, for whatever reason, don’t understand that their child may not always get all As, and that I DO still have their child’s best interests at heart and I WILL always err on the side of the student in terms of fairness. (This is especially a problem for me because I tend to teach the “gateway” courses where kids really do struggle for the first time in their academic careers; it is also problematic for teachers of 9th graders.) In my experiences, this type of parent situation is especially hurtful when parents team up against me – it has happened – because I was the “new teacher,” and my reputation was not yet established. I think there is a trust issue — parents don’t want to wait until it’s too late to find out they ought have acted sooner, and we can’t blame them for that! – and yet teachers feel attacked when parents don’t step back and let them do their jobs. (I don’t want to say all this and have some of you thinking I am a horrible person and a worse teacher. I have great successes teaching and my colleagues and most of my students would say I am a good teacher who cares, who works hard, who makes class enjoyable, and yes, who makes the kids work hard, but they leave my room having learned.)

In any case, I am the first to say that there can be animosity; but I also suggest that we hear too many horror stories and fail to remember that most teacher-parent relationships are what we all hope them to be.

Sorry that I forgot to write with lots of clichés.

p.s. to Jeff – stress is never a good excuse for failing to behave like an adult.

p.p.s. There might be a third category of parent/teacher interactions, which is to say the genuinely bad parent or the genuinely bad teacher. The parent who is out to get the teacher; or the teacher who takes things out on the student in response to parental contacts. This is never good for anyone.

By Becky

October 4, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Back in the day, I didn’t get in trouble at school..I was afraid of what would happen to me at home. I agree with a lot of posters that say, parents should be parents..

By jim d

October 4, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Dear educator,

There is absolutely no justification for abusing a child. Again let me point out that the parents you blame may not even know what is going on in as much as these kids may not display this type of behavior at home.

Kids are funny creatures. They push our buttons as parents all the time. To think they will not do the same to a teacher is a bit niave.

By Janine

October 4, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Oh…and thinking about teaching…that’s when the teachers who used to LOVE it came up with the mantra:*The first 10 years you teach, you think you can save the children….The 2nd 10 years you teach, you think you can change the system…The 3rd 10 years you teach, all you want is to get the H—-out of there and hope your grandchildren go to private school!!!!

By BYUGRL

October 4, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Teachers, If you have a problem with my child mouthing off or being dis-respectful. Let me know, I’ll deal with him appropriately. If you tape my child’s mouth shut, I’ll tape yours shut. I believe in an eye for an eye.

By Jane

October 4, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Sounds like you are better off, out of a situation that you didn’t like, you no longer have to deal with the individual in question. Unfortunately, it happens in all walks of life not only teaching, in corporations also. You are not alone and you are not the only individual this has happened to—if you had concerns and were asking the questions as a concerned adult and not phrasing it as idiodic situation especially to the powers that be.
Count your blessings and move on—that which does not kill us only makes us stronger.

By Kym-Mom

October 4, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

WWW I understand NCLB…it is why I supplement my kid’s lessons at home. Learning about Greek and Roman culture at school, guess what he is on his way to the Greek fest this weekend. Learning about fossils in science..lets go to Fernbank. We pull information off the web or take a trip to the library. I simply can not accept that even with NCLB(God help us all) there is not more that can be done to supplement a child’s education other than the endless worksheets(what the heck happen to textbooks) that come home. My kid is in middle school and because this is such a critical time in his life I really have little tolerance for the excuses. Here is a quote..”Want something done right do it yourself.” If only I could homeschool. “sigh”

By Dick

October 4, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

NEWS FLASH!!!!!! Your children are not perfect. Teachers are to teach, not raise a child. parents get your fingers out of your butts and raise you child. A child should be able to sit down and shut up when they enter a class room, end of discussion, period. Dont want to hear it. Aint’ gonna listen.

By Blind Homer

October 4, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

So sad to see Jeff is still off his meds and not receiving therapy. Please tell me you aren’t about to subject some poor woman to your alternatively angry and whining tirades? Poor parenting perhaps? On subject, as a parent only I’d say it’s at least 80-20 bad parenting, probably 90-10. The single largest social ill of our time is that those unwilling and/or unable to parent have some of the highest birth rates. I try to make sure my daughter has the skills to live in the future among the undisciplined. Just another reason for you to consider anger management class Jeff, along with logic and moral and ethical philosophy.

By HS Teacher Too

October 4, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom,

You are asking some great questions and I fear they are getting lost in today’s blog. They are the kinds of questions that I wish we would hear from parents more often — because we can clear up miscommunications before they become misconceptions!

For example, you ask about worksheets compared to textbooks. I use the textbook, but I also tend (especially in my lower-level classes) to assign worksheets, because I have found that worksheets will make it home and back more dependably than will a heavy book — especially if there are lots of books to go home that night and the student has to make a choice. So that might be one issue playing a role. But if you don’t ever SEE the textbooks, I’d suggest asking the teacher what their thought is… you might be surprised by what you hear, and if nothing else, you’ll know what they are thinking, even if you disagree.

By BiteMe

October 4, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Jeff - No offense hon, but I really don’t understand how you can go off spouting all this crazy talk and then expect sympathy for having a bad day! WELCOME TO REALITY - I know it’s difficult, but you’re only 25 - Pretty much just a child yourself. I hope your wife knows karate. Sounds like she might need it.

Parents - Kudos to all of you, and also, shame on you all. Your kids are pretty much total brats, and most of you could CARE LESS. You expect the teachers to take total control. In retrospect, teachers, kudos to some of you…..but the majority of you just could CARE LESS.

I went to school in East Cobb County, and there was only 2 teachers who EVER touched me in realizing that someone DOES give a sh*t, with my ADD and all (they shared a classroom - Thank you Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Whitfield from Mt. Bethel Elementary School! You guys were great). But that was in 5th grade!!! You know, when most kids are happy and not in clique’s yet, and all should be well with the world (which it was for me, anyway)…..

But then middle school approached, and I gotta say from that point on, I could only help notice that most of you teachers that I had in Cobb were more concerned about “fitting in” with the kids and wearing the latest fashions! “Um, teaching? Sorry, what’s that??? OH, well….Like my new GUESS JEANS I bought over the weekend???” I can’t tell you how many “suck-up” teachers I saw, they were all in a popularity contest to see who can get the kids to like them the most, and they were just as relentless in teasing kids as much as the “popular kids” did. It was SICKENING, and I’m not the only one who has witnessed this. They were just as bad as the parents were……Most of the parents were snobs themselves, thus raising little brats to carry on their legacy. They literally thought their kids could NEVER do ANYTHING wrong, and they would always blame someone else for their children’s lack of good behavior. That is why the kids had such sh*tty personalities, and to this day, still do! They are still miserable people, just like they were when they were miserable LITTLE people.

That was the problem then, and it’s the problem now! Lack of caring on BOTH ends. What kills me most is that this was at Dickerson Middle and Walton High, which at the time were both considered the best public schools in GA - HA! What a joke, they were the most pathetic schools I EVER had the displeasure of going to. Even the gym teacher at Walton would get caught hanging out at the local Taco Mac with the football team, buying beer for the boys who weren’t even 21. (You know who you are, Buckey…..) LOSERS!

So, plesae quit blaming each other. You are ALL TO BLAME in some small way.

Sorry for the long blog. Have a nice day!

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom:

You are oh so wrong. It is not that I personally ONLY want to teach what the State of GA says. The fact is that I can get into big trouble if I deviate from it.

Teachers are dictated as to the content to teach. We don’t have a choice in the matter.

How dare you call me a just enough teacher. You don’t know me. However, I will do what I must to keep my job and my certification.

ITP Mom -

I made no ‘broad sweeping generaliztions.’ I used the terms “many” and “most.” These mean a part of and are not sweeping nor broad. May I introduce you to Webster?

By Jim

October 4, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

You know, any parent who hears a story about another parent who chains a child to a radiator or a bed and reacts with horror has never had a 16 year old in the house…

I remember getting put off the bus once when I was about 11. Walked home a mile and a half, in a blizzard. The bus driver checked to make sure I got home, but would not let me on the bus. My dad’s only reaction was, “so, what’d ya do?” I told him I got in a fight, his only response was to spank my rear end, and make me apologize to the driver for causing trouble.

I’ve tried to raise my kids the same way. In this case, I doubt if the child was permanently harmed, and he learned a darn good lesson. If it happened to my child, I’d just want to know what he did to prompt it, then deal accordingly. Most likely he’d get grounded too-for causing the problem in the first place.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Reading between the lines:

• The duct tape story is much ado about nothing. Initial news stories make is appear that a teacher slapped some duct tape over a student’s mouth to get him to quit talking. Later accounts indicate that the child was in an after-school program and was apparently in a “time out” for talking. The after-school ASSISTANT (not teacher) suggested that if the child couldn’t stop talking long enough to rejoin his friends in an activity, maybe he should tape his mouth. Anyone who has ever peeled duct tape from skin knows that to tape (or allow a child to tape) their mouth shut with duct tape is a bad decision.

• In all my years in business, I’ve had to fire about six employees. Every one of them tried to twist things around to make it sound like it wasn’t their fault - or that it was my fault. I always keep that in mind whenever Jeff waxes eloquently about his crusade against his former superintendent.

• Years ago, there were not worth a damn parents and kids who were troublemakers/slackers/idiots. Yet, they were able to educate the student body. The demise of our public schools is largely self-inflicted.

By Soulfinger

October 4, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Wow things are so different than when I was coming up. You acted up in school too bad and you received a wack with a ruler! Then, you got home and when the neighbors heard you were unruly they gave you a peice of thier mind. Then when mom and dad got home…LOOK OUT!!! Now, you scream at a kid and you have someone screaming abuse! Kids are having babies and not raising them and sending them to school in hopes that the teacher will do all of the hard work! Not once in that duct tape story did I hear anyone address the childs behavior. They would rather spend time investigating the teacher who probably had enough of the 10 year old who doesn’t realize even now that there is a time and place in school for chatter. There is a definate breakdown in the teacher-parent relationship but the bottom line is teaching starts at home!

By jim d

October 4, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

I think much of the problem is that some teachers as well as parents have difficulty accepting who is to do what. This in fact may be due to teachers that do have some students that recieve no education as to acceptable behavior—-and teachers assuming every student is the same.

Parents, self included, can become very defensive when approached by a teacher insinuating that we aren’t raising our children properly.

Is either party totally in the wrong? No, I don’t think so. Each party has a self interest and will defend that interest. So whats the answer? Ahh, communications might just be the key. Teachers and parents that are able to communicate can put much of this dissention to rest.

By Becky

October 4, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Jim, that is exactly what my Mom would of done..So, sounds to me like you are raising good kids. At the ripe old age of 45, I can say that my mother only spanked me once. My fault & trust me, I knew better the next time. Part of the problem, is that parent’s aren’t allowed to spank a child now, so children get away with a lot more..

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Lee:

Now that you’ve tied yourself to Bobby, it explains a LOT about you - more so than you’d probably like.

In my experience, there are quite a few bosses with a power trip (and ego trip to boot). They typically make life a living HADES for their employees and have high turnover.

Bobby lost half of his RCMS employees alone, at LEAST two years straight.

By JeffHatersClub

October 4, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

1) I think YOU need the duct tape

2) Teachers like you are why Georgia’s students are so stupid

By JustMe

October 4, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

jim d-

I mostly agree. Another aspect of teaching is that we are much more apt to be slapped with a law suit or fired at the slightest indication of improper behavior. Parents can get away with much more ‘crap’ before the government considers removing the children.

By Vic B

October 4, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

It appears to me that in this case the student and staff involved were wrong, and the parents are probably sorry. Regardless, the problem here is that we have allowed disruptions to take place too frequently in the classroom. Public schools are the only public place where disruption of the business at hand is tolerated. You can be in the local bar/club getting sloppy drunk, but if your behavior presents a problem with the other patrons, you will be “bounced out”.

Simply put, classroom disruptions should not be tolerated, period. The learning environment is too precious and sensitive for us to continue allowing it. In fact, state law supports a teacher’s right to have a disruptive student removed from class. This should be made common knowledge to all teachers and upheld at the local district level. Don’t touch them or tape them, just put them out.

By V for Vendetta

October 4, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Kym-Mom,

You are bringing up some excellent points and you can understand our frustration with NCLB, but you are also slinging a little bit of (superfluous) mud around. No need for all that.

Often times we do what we’re told, it’s as simple as that. When I feel like I can safely push the boundaries for the benefit of my students, I do. When I worry that it will bring the wrath of the (moronic) admins or educrats down upon me, I don’t. There’s really not a whole lot more to it. I just wish I didn’t have to make the choice.

SALIENT POINT ALERT!

Lee: “The demise of our public schools is largely self-inflicted.” Very true, indeed.

The bottom line is this: Bad parents or good parents, bad teachers or good teachers, it is all a moot point if there is not real teaching going on in the classroom. Sure, I believe that many parents (sweeping generalization?) are doggy doo poo compared to parents of the past (see my initial post), but at the end of the day discipline is only one factor we have to deal with.

The house of cards was already tumbling down, one mouthy kid didn’t cause anything that wasn’t already happening.

Oh, and did anyone happen to notice the BYUGRL who said she would tape the teachers mouth shut? An eye for an eye? Yikes! Them Mormons are fiesty these days! Reminds me of when Brigham Young had all of the settlers killed for crossing the border into Utah. Oops, did I just say that?

By Jeff

October 4, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Becky:

Just once? Lucky!! My dad’s workbelt and I became well acquainted over the years!

I turned out pretty well though. As angry-SOUNDING as I can get when talking or typing, I can honestly say that I haven’t actually HIT a person in anger since my mid-teens, if that late in my life.

Trees, rocks, lockers, walls, and other inanimate objects have not been so lucky, but hey, they don’t have feelings!

(One thing about Randolph that I actually LIKED and kept was something my principal told me: “Sometimes when ya get mad, you just gotta grab an ax and go chop a few trees.” This after I wanted to DESTROY a kid who had spit in my face - then had the cajones to go to the principal and tell him that I had spit in the kid’s face! -Note: This was yet another situation where Bobby tried to fire me, yet did nothing to the kid. This one was the LAST straw for me, however, as this was the point where I told him to go F himself. Though I did it in nicer terms. After all, I needed another job and they might ask him questions. Now that I truly no longer need him for any reason, there are days where I want to go back to Cuthbert, walk into his office, and say it to his face for real. But I don’t. He aint worth my time.)

By Dick

October 4, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

The problemn in school today is kids that don’t want to learn is taking valuabel teaching time from those who do. I say allow studetns to quit school at age of 15 AFTER they sign a legal affidavit stating they will not accept or expect any local, state or federal assistance when they find out they can’t make it in the world with out an education. NCLB is the worse thing to happen to education in years. Our elected officals in education then decided to allow parents and students to dictate what would be acceptable in our schools today. I say stop the daily operation of our parents/students telling administartion what to do.

By Blind Homer

October 4, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

V - Thanks for pointing out that diagnosed ADHD is little more than a parenting/discipline issue, huge pile of BS that is used primarily to justify abhorrent behavior.

By Lee

October 4, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I’m not “tying” myself to Bobby Jenkins, or anyone else for that matter.

From your own posts over the past year or so, I recall that in the final weeks of your stay in Randolph County, they took the extraordinary step of placing another teacher in your classroom and eventually pulling you out. I’m sure the teachers on this blog would verify that is an almost unheard of situation.

Personally, judging by your posts on this blog, I am glad that you are out of education and away from kids. It was just a matter of time before you lost your temper and did something stupid - especially the way you advocate “anything short of putting them in the hospital.”

BTW, the way you blame Bobby Jenkins for your troubles in Randoph County, what’s the difference between that and a student doing something wrong and blaming it on the teacher?

Not much, IMHO.

By ITP Mom

October 4, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

JustMe: I have a Websters. The definition of most: greatest; the greatest part of; the greatest amount, quantity, or degree; the largest part or number.

Given that, I stand behind my earlier comment and I continue to (respectfully) disagree with your original comment as it relates to parents: “most of the time they side with the child and blame the teacher.”

By Concerned

October 4, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Everyone has made a lot of interesting points here, but I think something is missing. Why is there such a disipline issue with kids today?

When I was in high school, kids were afraid of being sent to the principal’s office. He had a paddle and would use it as he deemed neccessary. Kids also had respect for the teachers because they too were not afraid of being physical when they needed to. Kids were well behaved at home too…because getting punished had true meaning back then.

When did this all fall apart? It fell apart when the “child abuse” craze began. Don’t get me wrong, I in no way condone child abuse. True child abuse should be dealt with. But it got to the point where parents were afraid to disipline their kids for fear they would be reported for child abuse and go to jail. The same for teachers. They took the authority away from teachers and school officals to deal with kids effectly. It didn’t take long for kids to catch on to what was happening. They began to realize they could do whatever they wanted and wouldn’t get punished. As kids will do when there are no boundaries, they ran with it. Now we have a mess to clean up.

Instead of pointing fingers, lets figure out a way to correct the situation. Authority needs to be returned to both parents and teachers. Kids have been in control long enough!

By high school teacher

October 4, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

Quoting myself from 11:27 - “Yes, it is our job to bend over backwards to help our students.”

Jeff’s reply at 11:42 - “Nope. Teachers’ jobs is to present the lesson. And deal with discipline as they must.”

Well, Jeff, I’m 36. I have taught for 13 years, and I have not been fired/run off by a superintendent, and I have not been spit on by a kid, so maybe I really do know what I’m talking about. If you just want “to present a lesson,” teach at a college somewhere.

You do not belong in any school with people under the age of 18.

BTW - you might be careful when you publicly reference people in high places. I think that you could be held for libel.

Also - like it or not, you DON’T bad mouth your superiors unless they have participated in criminal activity. An unspoken rule of teaching: during your first year, you don’t offer opinions, you don’t talk in faculty meetings unless spoken to, and you don’t confront your superiors. Heck, I still don’t confront my administration if I disagree. I just do as I’m told(unless it’s illegal). I like my job.

By Brenda

October 4, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

I am a divorced single mother of a 15 year old who will turn 16 at the end of this month. I was raised in the 60’s by a very firm/strict grandmother who had to raise all of her children after her husband (my grandfather) ran off and left her to do so. My grandmother has since passed but she never had to go to the police station, stand before a judge or go out at night to look for any of her children. Sadly, my mother was probably the most difficult of the 9 and she was the second oldest.

I learned values at an early age and my grandmother did not spare the rod and when my son was growing up, I didn’t do everything my grandmother did, but I surely didn’t spare the rod.

My son is a very bright, intelligent, and smart young man who has goals for college and a career. He is not perfect and even there are still times I have to remind him who the parent is. He tries to exemplify the values I’ve been trying to instill in him from the time he could comprehend what yes and no mean. His teachers and I are on one accord when it comes to his education and they know they can contact me anytime. I’m there if there no initial contact from them because I care about my son’s future. We are not friends, but we do have heart to heart conversations and when we travel, we listen to oldies and sometimes I’ll listen to his type of music and we both have a great time.

We are all we have and that matters to us. We are there for each other and support each other and that is what makes our relationship very close. It would be a wonderful thing if more parents spent quality time with their children and had those talks, even the uncomfortable conversations. It could make a world of difference in a child’s life. I don’t know if I’m doing everything right, but right now, everything is working just fine.

By JW

October 4, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this

If a teacher called my parents for any behavioral problems, my parents dealt with me at home and the problem was corrected. A teacher never called twice for the same reason - trust me!

What my parents did NOT do under any circumstances was to ask for my side of the story. They trusted the adult. It is truly a shame this is no longer a fact.

By MostlyIJustRead

October 4, 2007 6:12 PM | Link to this

“Get Schooled” bloggers: The time has come to just ignore Jeff. If you see something with “Jeff” in it, just move on. Unfortunately, this will cause us to lose out on any pointed commentary on Thomas Jefferson and the like, but its the price we gotta pay.

Crazy man walking down the street, talking to former employers who aren’t there, etc. Just give him space, leave him be, and let him go about his business.

By Old Physics Teacher

October 4, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

Thinking about Teaching,

Jump right in!! I’m making about 1/3 as much as I could make in the private sector, and I have a Ed. S. I don’t care. The is the worst job I have ever loved. The hours are awful. The stress is incredible. The good administrators (and they are few and far inbetween) are ignorant. I don’t want to even discuss the poor ones. Mainly if you are a poor teacher with tenure, you fail upward to be an administrator. But that’s another blog topic.

When you first start teaching, you get the worst classes. So what? In the first office job I got, my chair only had 3 legs. My calculator was broken, and my phone didn’t work. On the first sales job I was given, my custormer list were the slow-pays and no-pays. Everybody dumps on the new guy. Deal with it. The look on the kids’ faces when what you’re teaching sinks in, is worth everthing. Plus, I get to use the same jokes over and over from year to year, and the kids don’t know it :)

By V for Vendetta

October 5, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

JW,

Hit the nail on the head!

My situation was even worse. When I was in elem. school (and at my behavioral worst), my mom was teaching right down the hall! After school, I would sit in her room and pray my teacher didn’t walk in to talk about one of the (many) things I had done wrong that day. If she did, my mom wouldn’t even ask me a question, she would just inform me of the punishment.

That’s the kind of discipline — and support — that’s missing, these days.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

Lee:

Bobby doesn’t want me calling down the wrath of the Justice Department and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission on him. I have enough evidence to start several inquiries that will put him under the very microscope his power has been built around avoiding. I don’t want the hassle of having to go to court for years and testify against him. We have each other at an impasse, though the difference between the two of us is that my gun is loaded, his just has blanks.

All:

Lest you forget, look at who started this fight: LEE. His very first post started going after me “without mentioning names”. His second post called me out.

As I have consistently said: I will fight only in defense. I haven’t been the aggressor in any fight I’ve been in - on ANY LEVEL - in more than a decade now, and I do not intend to start with someone as cowardly as Lee.

By Lee

October 5, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Ok Jeff, I’ll type r-e-a-l s-l-o-w where you can understand.

The topic of this blog was the distrust between teachers and parents. I gave some examples of why I thought this occured and I also stated that there are some teachers who have no business being in the classroom. I didn’t mention any names and had no intention of mentioning names.

That is, until you posted your rant about “slapping the teeth” out of a student who talks.

I’ve read your “tough guy” rants until I’m sick of them.

Math teachers are in short supply in Ga. As a result, administrators will bend over backwards to retain a good math teacher. Yet, you managed to get run out of the classroom after about 5 months.

How bad of a teacher do you have to be to get run off halfway through your first year?

Also, I don’t know Bobby Jenkins - never heard of him until I read your many posts about him. I give him credit though, he saw through your crap and got you the he11 out of the classroom and away from his kids.

You open yourself up for criticism on these blogs with the things you post. Don’t want criticism, don’t post.

Better yet, take Jim D’s advice and eat something and take your meds. The rest of us are content just knowing that you are out of the classroom and away from our kids.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Lee:

Bobby Jenkins don’t like white people, to paraphrase Kanye West.

Simple fact. He hired 5 new white guys last year and ran every single one of them off, in addition to a couple of white guys he had already when I came in. (I know for a fact that one of them now works hundreds of miles away near the GA-Tenn border.)

This year, he hired ONE new white guy - out of roughly 30 new teachers.

Don’t believe me? Look at the picture on the main page of www.sowegak12.org, the Randolph County website.

He used the Set-Up To Fail Syndrome to get me gone because he didn’t like the color of my skin. EVERYTHING that happened to me there - including the Feb date of my contract expiring, the discipline issues, and the other teacher that was ordered to my room - is proof positive of that claim. Note that the other teacher ordered to my room was a black female who did almost the same EXACT things I did discipline wise, yet not a word was ever said about her.

Bridget, if you’ll run my “Set-Up To Fail” guest blog, I’m pretty sure Lee may start to get an idea of just how pervasive this really is in education.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Update?

Excuse me, but one can assume from the comments of the employee who did the taping that said employee may have hung the child to keep him quite, had the child agreed.

“Dillon said the boy was put in time-out for talking too much. The staffer told the boy the time-out could be cut short if he stayed quiet. But then the staffer suggested that the only way the boy would stay quiet would be to put a piece of tape on his mouth.”

“Dillon said the boy agreed.”

I ask you. Who was the adult in this case and who should be held accontable?

Oh, and Bridget—did I understand correctly that this was not a certified teacher merely a baby sitter for detention? If that is a correct understanding then your lead into the story and this entire blog were quite mis-leading.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

one other observation.

It’s interesting to note that the judge may have just ruled that child endangerment is no longer a crime in Georgia.

By SET

October 5, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Discipline issues again.

There was a reason that high schools has positions of dean of boys, and dean of girls - and the boys side was staffed by a man and not a woman.

Women do not know how to discipline boys, period. They can only try to guess at what works.

We should no more have women handling discipline of post pubescent boys than we should allow women to serve as on the floor guards in male prisons. When you do, you get chaos and problems for both the female staff and the males concerned.

10 is normally not pubescent, however puberty is dropping to as young as 8, especially in certain ethnic groups.

I don’t care for duct taping. There are more effective means. Getting women out of the way is best when dealing with bad boys.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

jim:

What exactly was this child “in danger” of?

He nose wasn’t blocked - he could still breath.

His hands weren’t tied, therefore in an emergency where he may need his mouth open (such as wretching), he could rip the tape off his mouth.

Therefore, I fail to see how this child was placed in any kind of “danger” other than the so-called “danger” of being embarrassed.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

A parting thought.

Not too long ago I kind of recall a case where a dog was found with its mouth duct taped and everyone was raising HeII about the inhuman jerk that would do something like that.

So reading this blog we can deduce that a dog is more importaant than a child to some bloggers. Very interesting considering this is an education blog with many bloggers we entrust our children to.

By Lee

October 5, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Jeff, in your own words:

“Would you rather me duct tape his mouth or slap his teeth out? Either way accomplishes the mission of shutting your brat up, and I’m cool with either.”

“If you will discipline your kids at home, I won’t have to use “unorthodox” discipline methods at school, and we will ALL be happier!”

“I really could use a good fight today, though I do need it to be physical.”

“You want some, COME GET SOME!”

“As long as the kid doesn’t have to go to the hospital, I don’t even question it.”

“Now, when a kid winds up in the hospital- at THAT point, the teacher has gone too far.”

There is more, but I tire of cutting and pasting.

Like I said earlier, your comments on this blog speak volumes about your maturity. Bottom line, I wouldn’t want you withing a 100 yards of my kids.

You want to make a federal case out of Bobby Jenkins running you out of teaching? Fine. Go ahead. All his lawyer has to do is get a transcript of this blog and not a jury in the world would blame him.

By Bridget Gutierrez

October 5, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

jim d: I never said the employee in question was a certified teacher, and I never referred to the person as such.

Neither did the article.

When I spoke about teachers, I was referring to those who were commenting on ajc.com about the story.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Lee:

His lawyer wouldn’t be allowed to use my comments here in court. Irrelevant to the case in question. (The case in question being his systematic denial of employement rights to white teachers and his blatant discrimination against white teachers.) In fact, the only reason I would even be on the stand is because I am the only one that left teaching all together, and therefore I am the only one that he can’t touch in any way.

Trust me, I’ve thought this through.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Jeffery,

Are we familiar with MSDS?

Here’s a couple of items from one on duct tape, and I just gotta say I don’t believe one of the recommended normal uses is listed as taping a kids mouth shut.

SECTION 10: Stability and Reactivity

Hazardous decomposition will occur only under fire conditions. Various harmful compounds could be formed during combustion. No hazards associated with normal use.

SECTION 11: Toxicological Information

Although hazardous chemicals may be used in this product, exposure to those chemicals and possible hazardous effects will not occur with the product in this form, in normal use. MSDS for individual hazardous chemicals can be supplied upon request by contacting Technical Service at the above number.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

jim:

Fire conditions do not apply. The kid would have ripped the tape off his mouth at that point.

Neither does tox apply. Keep the mouth shut, and nothing can enter. Again, in an emergency where the mouth needs to be open, since his hands are free he can simply rip it off.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Sorry Jeff but I beg to differ.

I am not a doctor but I do know that some people react differently to chemicals. One can even go into shock if they have a disposition to a given chemical. At which point they would not be able to remove the tape themselves.

Endangerment is a very broad term as well. Would the child have gagged and started choking due to having his mouth taped shut might he have been in danger? I think yes. Obviously the judge failed to see it that way.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

jim:

Thankfully.

We don’t need more cry baby whining sissies thinking about something that will happen less than one hundredth of one percent of the time in a given situation and banning it because it COULD happen.

To borrow a phrase I coined on Momania, “Stepford Suburbanite” indeed.

By jim d

October 5, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

“We don’t need more cry baby whining sissies thinking about something that will happen less than one hundredth of one percent of the time in a given situation and banning it because it COULD happen.”

So Jeff, you are ok with endangering a child as long as they don’t die?

C’mon man—you don’t really mean that!

By Lee

October 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Jim D, according to Jeff’s previous posts:

“As long as the kid doesn’t have to go to the hospital, I don’t even question it. Now, when a kid winds up in the hospital- at THAT point, the teacher has gone too far.”

Or, Exhibit A as to why school systems keep lawyers on retainer.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

jim:

You “endanger” a child every time you put him in a car. Does this mean we should leave kids at home 24/7??

THAT is my argument: As long as it is reasonable to expect that death will not occur, nor will hospitalization be required, there is no “endangerment” happening.

By Chris

October 5, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Closing off an airway unnessicarily is bad news. If the kid had a panic attack, allergic reaction or any of a dozen other conditions, it could have been fatal. While yes, it only happens in a very small percentage of the population, is that a risk you are willing to take with someone else’s children?

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Chris:

The short answer:

YES

Slightly longer:

You take someone elses’ kids in your hands every time you step into your car.

By Joy in Teaching

October 5, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

At the risk of sounding like a teacher,would it be possible if we stuck to the topic of this blog, please?

This is turning into Jeff’s private circus.

Isn’t there something in the AJC user agreement about the sort of antagonistic comments he has been making?

By Joy in Teaching

October 5, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Copied from the AJC Visitor agreement:

Specific Prohibited Uses. Without limiting the foregoing, we may immediately terminate your use of any Communications Service if you engage in any of the following prohibited activities:

•Uploading or posting any off-topic or irrelevant material to any chat room or forum;

• Violating any applicable local, state, national or international law, including, but not limited to (i) all applicable laws regarding the transmission of technical data exported from the United States or the country in which you reside (Libelous speech would be included here);

• “Stalking” or otherwise harassing another

• Instigating or encouraging others to commit illegal activities or cause injury or property damage to any person. (This would include threatening others or talking about knocking a “kid’s teeth out.)

Bridget, please do something about this guy!

By jim d

October 5, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

How asinine. Comparing driving a car to taping a childs mouth shut. I am beinning to have serious doubts as to if you will ever be able to raise kids.

By Lee

October 5, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

Note to Bobby Jenkins, Superintendent of Randolph County Schools.

I don’t know if you read this blog or not, but if you do, I just want to say THANK YOU for running this character named Jeff out of education. I have been reading this “Get Schooled” blog for some time now and there have been many with whom I have had a difference of opinion, but only one that I would not want around my children in any way, shape, or form… and that person is Jeff.

I am sure that your teachers and parents feel safer now that you have eliminated this psychopath’s access to your campuses.

Again, thank you.

Signed,

Lee, an AJC blogger.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

Joy:

Again, I point out that the only times I am overly antagonistic towards anyone is when they attack me first.

If Bridget does something about my posts, she must also do something about jim d and Lee, just to name two regulars.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

jim:

You’re the one that chose to bring up “endangerment”.

MULTIPLE studies have proven that there is NO GREATER SINGLE CAUSE of more childhood injuries and deaths than riding in a car.

My question holds:

Do we ban children riding in cars because it is “dangerous”?

By jim d

October 5, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Let me try to splain it this way Jeffery,

Child endagerment is a crime. Also note that Driving a vehicle with a child not in proper restraints is a crime.

So you see there are proper methods of restraint—— None, however, of which I know involve duct tape.

By Jeff

October 5, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

jimmie boy,

Even with the child in “proper restraints”, you are STILL endangering him simply by placing him in the car.

After all, literally HUNDREDS of kids every year are killed and injured even though they were in “proper restraints”.

Therefore, simply by placing your kid in the car - even in “proper restraints” - you are STILL guilty of your definition of “child endangerment”.

By luvs2teach

October 5, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Jeff, you said, “His lawyer wouldn’t be allowed to use my comments here in court.”

I beg to differ - a couple years ago I was subpoenaed to testify in a trial because of comments I posted here on the AJC.

Silly me, I put my real name on the post, and some legal eagle intern found me among all the others. It was a hot topic, too - hundreds of posts to sift through.

If it’s in print, it could construed as libel - courts may not have had enough case law to set precedent in dealing with the internet - hopefully you won’t be the first.

Maybe SET can give us some info on that?

By luvs2teach

October 5, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff, you said, “His lawyer wouldn’t be allowed to use my comments here in court.”

I beg to differ - a couple years ago I was subpoenaed to testify in a trial because of comments I posted here on the AJC.

Silly me, I put my real name on the post, and some legal eagle intern found me among all the others. It was a hot topic, too - hundreds of posts to sift through.

If it’s in print, it could construed as libel - courts may not have had enough case law to set precedent in dealing with the internet - hopefully you won’t be the first.

Maybe SET can give us some info on that?

By jim d

October 5, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

You have my email adress so please send me an address, after your first child is born, where I can ship a roll of duct tape to your bride to be. (she may need it)

By Bridget Gutierrez

October 5, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

OK, folks. This conversation has officially devolved. I’m going to shut down commenting now.

So step away from the computer, take a deep breath and relax. After all, it’s Friday. Go enjoy the start of your weekend.

I’ll see you all again bright and early on Monday.