Get Schooled

By JustMe

September 25, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Not.

Administrators are chasing their tails to enforce stupid rules on all teachers that do nothing to help learning. Example: Taking one day every two weeks for ‘benchmark assessments’. Losing one day every two weeks? Are they crazy? We cannot afford to lose any time out of instruction!

Administrators (and everyone else) know who the ‘good’ teachers are and what teachers get ‘results.’ Rather than sharing best practices (as industry does), they want to blanket enforce these silly rules to ‘look good’ to their boss….. See what I am doing as the administrator to help?

Let the ‘good’ teachers alone and let them teach the kids.

Help out the teachers that need help. Provide real support and real assistance.

The ‘poor’ teachers that are there to just collect a paycheck should be fired - not just moved to another school.

Finally, get the kids that are the trouble makers out of the general population, no matter what the parents say or threaten. Those kids do nothing but distract from those students trying to learn. Even a ‘3 strikes your out’ policy would be better than what we have now!

Doing those simple things would go a long way to improve education in GA.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

September 25, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

I give Bridget such a hard time about “being a silent co-conspirator in the academic genocide” of APS students (by not throughly reporting on APS malfeasance) that I thought maybe I should be the FIRST to laud her for telling it like it is when it comes to the alleged “historic progress” in Georgia’s schools in the press release by the state school stupidintendent (oops, those pesky typos :)

I hope you’ll use the same bullsh-t detector that you used on Cox’s press release in the future when reporting on APS.

By Janine

September 25, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

So,Bridget… will we see the info you posted above prominently [and appropriatly, I might add] adjacent to whatever space you give Cox’s press release declaring “historic” improvement??? Unfortunately, Ms. Cox is now just another politician!

By fed up

September 25, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Here is a link to the presentation from the GADOE with disaggregated data on the NAEP. Hope it works. If it doesn’t there is a link to it at the bottom of the press release.

http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/DMGetDocument.aspx/NAEP%202007%20results%20(final).pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F6149772B712FCEA35BBF1914D538F9D7E6D196D3F68267675&Type=D

By JustMe

September 25, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Watch how the real ‘educrates’ such as Cox find some way to spin this data!!!! Somehow, they will find a way to make it look good and also take credit.

By jim d

September 25, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Just my uniformed opinion. But in order to do either (lead or follow) one must stand.

Georgia has yet to do so. Until we do we shall just remain stagnant

By jim d

September 25, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

oops, before I’m blasted—Please excuse the typo. Should read uneducated / uninformed opinion. :)

By V for Vendetta

September 25, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

NOT.

Kick out the educrats, then maybe we can see the (beginnings of) progress here in Georgia.

Until then, we might as well be forever regressing into oblivion. Yes, I’m feeling a bit mellow-dramatic today!

By HS Teacher Too

September 25, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure anything could be said better than what JustMe said at the start of this blog.

Anecdotally, I’d like to share a little bit about “letting teachers teach.” I think I have said this on this blog before, but when I taught in Gwinnett we had list upon list of “AKS” (curriculum items) to say we were going to cover, to cover, and to prove we covered. We tried, as a whole, to cover too much too quickly, simply to be able to say “look what we do,” without any real thought as to how well we were doing it. (“we” being the system.)

I moved to New England and asked for my syllabi for my courses I was preparing to teach that Fall, and my department head said, “You know what [subject] is; teach it.” Our expectations were that we would teach the subject well enough to give our kids an appropriate foundation in the key concepts so that they would be successful in future courses, and have a solid understanding of the material we covered in our courses. There was no mandate to finish the entire book — to do weekly benchmarks, or aany of that. “Teaching to the test” was unacceptable. Teach the material, take perhaps some time to explain how the test works and how to take a test (strategies, etc.) but don’t teach simply for students to be successful on a test. Teach for them to learn.

Those were my best years teaching.

Sure, this works best when you have good teachers who do a good job; but the point is, when you let teachers teach, more often than not the other details (test scores, etc.) fall into place as a matter of course.

By Joy in teaching

September 25, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Amen, to JustMe and HS Teacher!

If the county would actually just let me teach instead of mandating that I spend time doing X,Y, and Z, I could actually begin to help my students make a serious improvement in their reading comprehension and writing.

The latest ridiculous idea here in Walton county is that teachers write the state standards in “kid friendly language” beside the essential question and by samples of student work.

Now I’m not really sure why that seems to be so important to the powers that be at the board office, but it is. Kids could really care less about the state standard and they are just tuning it out. My walls are so crowded now with the word wall, unit map, grading rubrics, samples of student work, essential questions, etc that ADD kids are literally bouncing off the walls when they leave my class.

By catlady

September 25, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

I have been alternately laughing and gritting my teeth all day about the editorial opinion today on Dr. Knapp’s committee’s proposal to improve education. Someone has been out of a real, k-12 classroom for too long(if they ever were in one as a teacher)!

By Jeff

September 25, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Teachers:

Get a CS degree. Turn into programmers. TRUST me, it’ll be the best move you’ve ever made!

By JustMe

September 25, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Thanks for the advice. However, I retired from a corporate job and turned to teaching as a ‘second’ career. Retirement is boring and I really wanted to find a way to better prepare students for college - to ‘give back’.

However, I have been horrified to find that teachers in GA have absolutely (or minimally) no say in the classroom. The educrates keep us so busy jumping through useless hoops that we cannot do what I wanted to do - really teach the students.

The students I teach routinely score way above the State average on all standardized tests. So, you would think that they would leave me alone? Heck, no. I am always being forced to change my teaching to conform - how stupid is that? Hmmmmm, wonder what will happen to my students scores?

By Jeff

September 25, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

Eh, when I go back to teaching - and that IS a when, not an if - it’ll be Tech school or higher. K-12 aint my thing. HOPEFULLY it won’t be as bad post-secondary!

By SET

September 25, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this

I think the readership believe that the current state of the schools is not unplanned.

It has been said that “there are no accidents”. If the state wanted different school performance or better schools, then they’d have them. The schools are doing exactly what they are supposed to.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist, just an armchair economist. I’ll say it again. If the state wanted something more from the public school system, the state would have it. It’a true here in CA also.

The degradation of public school systems in this country is no accident.

By Lisa B.

September 25, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I think you’d like technical college. My husband has been teaching at a local technical college 17 years and loves it.

In public education, we need to make the kids accountable again for their grades, work, etc. Nowadays, when a student fails, it is the teacher’s fault. That’s just wrong. Granted, some teachers are better than others. I had great teachers, good teachers, mediocre teachers and a couple of down right bad teachers. My parents expected me to make A’s, and I did. The same goes for my son who is currently in the 8th grade. He’s had teachers who ranged in quality, but his dad and I expect the outcome to be the same. He’s had teachers he didn’t like, and some I didn’t especially like, but that was no excuse for mediocre grades.

Kathy Cox and crew can mandate all kinds of standards, school improvement models, etc. When one looks at national test results however, Georgia students are doing much better now than five years ago. Now I hear a lot more about how its the teacher’s fault a child didn’t pass, or it’s the unruly child’s fault, or the bus driver’s fault, etc. Nothing is ever the CHILD’s fault.

Still, I will plug away and do my best. The pendulum always swings back again.

By ironmaiden

September 25, 2007 6:56 PM | Link to this

As much as Georgians like to banter about the inferiority of other Southern states, notably Alabama, I encountered a much higher degree of professional respect when I taught for both the Mobile and Montgomery school systems. I’ve experienced teaching in two metro counties that have micromanaged like a swarm of buzzards on fresh roadkill. We have serious administrative problems in this state- starting with Kathy Cox down to the local level. Why is it necessary for admin to police the teachers instead of the students?

By catlady

September 25, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

The comment about lack of professional discretion is on target. I have taught at the college level, and professors (even instructors) are accorded decision-making power over their courses. At the k-5 level, there is NONE. Occasionally teachers are given a chance for input, but then it is ignored and the administrators or county office does “what is best” for us.

Those of us who ARE professionals—treat us like we are! All the money in the world does not make up for being treated like idiots (scripted lessons, cure de jour, micromanagement, stupid duties).

By Lisa B.

September 25, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

I’ve always heard that what children do at school is a reflection of what’s going on is society as a whole. Lack of motivation, disrespectful behavior, lack of accountability, blaming others, violence, sexual promiscuity and aggressiveness, etc. I read recently that parents send us the best they have. If we give up, what happens to us all?

By WFC

September 26, 2007 8:25 AM | Link to this

The current approach to education seems to me to be a throwback to a fad of the early ‘70’s known as “teacher proofing” the curriculum. The idea was that “higher-ups” knew better how to teach children than the front line teachers. This fad quickly faded into oblivion and the present “micro-manage-test- mania will as well.

One of the hidden factors in the current school mess is how little true academic experience administrators (both building-level and central office) have. My last school, Northview, is run by a former band director who does a good job running the school but who is woefully weak in knowledge of instruction. Fulton County’s Assoc. Super of Curriculum and Instruction, Bob Burke, has no real academic experience and is bored to tears with issues of teaching and learning. I know this because I was an administrator under him for four years when he was principal of Chattahoochee High School. Whenever an instructional issue would come up, his eyes would glaze over.

With this kind of “leadership,” no wonder that even “good” schools are in decline. Unbelievable.

By jim d

September 26, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Cat,

Funny thing, that authority. Along with it goes accounatility.

Currently under NCLB teachers are being held somewhat accountable, so are the Schools, the school systems and eventually the state.

My question is if teachers were to be granted the authority they once held (back in the day), do you think they would be willing to be even more accountable for their results?

If I were teaching I’m not too sure I would want that kind of responsibility or extra work load that might result. I think that type of accountability would cull out the ones that really shouldn’t be in the classroom teaching but the catch 22 to all of this is that those of you who are capable and do such an extremely good job would end up being burdened with larger classes than you currently have, resulting in even longer hours, after hours, for planning and grading.

Another question that begs to be asked is would the few who realize their jobs were in jeopardy—out voice the majority of dedicated teachers?

By JustMe

September 26, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Teachers are held accountable regardless. We do everything we are told to do (or at least we try), and that includes instruction methods, etc., but if the students still do poorly it is our fault any way (according to NCLB, State of GA, parents, etc.). In GA, being a teacher is a no-win situation.

SET Your continued conspiracy theory is really getting old. Many New England States still allow teachers to teach (what a concept!). A friend of mine said that the first day on the job there, she was handed the materials and was simply told to teach - what a breathe of fresh air that would be! No mandated syllabus format, no mandated ‘word wall’, no mandated anything.

GA really needs to return to teacher-centered classrooms. This means to let the teacher make the decisions and do their job in the best interest of the students sitting in front of them. It is sickening that people in higher jobs can make decisions that have such a large impact inside of the classroom - especially when most of them never even taught in a classroom!

Question for all: including Bridget What is the State of GA legal limit size for science classes?

By SET

September 26, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Just Me - we’re obviously not talking about Yankee states and cities such as the New England States. Get a Clue! Those places are founded by Puritians and retain a bit of culture that actually intends it’s children to amount to something.

My complaining is directed at the large urban places that are failure factories for wage-slaves of the future. If you think this observation is a conspiracy theory - well, it’s really tough to see what’s directly in front of you sometimes. It’s happening all around us who live in CA - I’m not in GA but I can read.

My point again - if the people and government intended these rotten urban public schools to produce well educated young people they would do so. The fact that they don’t indicates that that was the intention all along.

This is true of the cause and effects in any large system. Winning WWII for example.

By jim d

September 26, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

just me is that a trick question?

By jim d

September 26, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Was that really a serious question?

The answer to your question may surprise a few people.

Rather than type it all out—here’s a link to 160-5-1-.08 CLASS SIZE. (if it doesn’t work please copy and paste into your search engine)

This was actually adopted on 8/9/07

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/_documents/doe/legalservices/160-5-1-.08.pdf

By Truth Filter

September 26, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Okay, I’ll bite, Just…according to DOE website, it’s 32 — but with local board approval, it can go to 34. (This was changed in the legislative session).

By jim d

September 26, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

It actually appears to be rather complicated. The whole thing is affected by grade, number of students with IEP’s, etc., etc.

By JustMe

September 26, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

SET -

If you really believe what you say, how can you account for those big city schools that are a success academically? In metro Atlanta, there is regularly a hand full of schools ranked tops in the nation. If what you say is true, wouldn’t ALL big city schools be ‘failing’ to create what you call the “wage-slaves of the future?” Why and how do they have these very successful schools? Are they ‘failing’ to create ‘failing’ schools?

By Truth Filter

September 26, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

I just assumed you were talking about High School (don’t know why…) Anyway, Jim d is right. It depends on the grade.

I do seem to recall there was some talk about having a lower class size in high school in science classes with labs. But that didn’t go anywhere.

IMHO, when it comes to teens with fire and chemicals, smaller classes might be a good idea!

:-)

By DB

September 26, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Perhaps this has been asked before, but I’m curious …

SET, you apparently live in California, and your educational experience is in California. Why are you so active on a blog that deals 99% with Georgia school issues? What’s the attraction? What drew you to this blog?

I truly am not saying this to be belligerent, but I’ve noticed that you post here frequently and I just wondered “what’s in it for you”?

By Janine

September 26, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Bridget RE the Laura Diamond article you mention…Did you see anything about what you said in your original post here…:None of the average scale scores posted in those three categories were statistically different from the previous scores; neither were the percentages of students scoring at the various achievement levels. As you say,“In other words, what little gains there were, don’t mean much.” Is the AJC planning to point this out or just let it slide???????

By HS Teacher Too

September 26, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

jim d — My question is if teachers were to be granted the authority they once held (back in the day), do you think they would be willing to be even more accountable for their results?

I can’t speak for all teachers, but speaking for myself: YES. I would even guarantee my kids would be absolutely fine. And I would NOT have to teach to the test.

Some teachers would take the perceived “lack of guidance” as stress and would teach even MORE to the test, I am sure.

How teachers would split overall would be interesting to see.

By SET

September 26, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

DB: I have generations of teacher relatives and was a sub myself very briefly after law school. This education blog seems to be the the most established one.

In my law practice I deal with - universally - the products of the public schools (victims/witnesses/jurors/defendants). Yet the people calling the shots such as the lawyers, judges, physicians, psychologists, and to some extent cops and social workers - all did not go to the public schools. My undergraduate work was largely in economic history and business.

I have made the connection here (CA) that public school, at least urban public schooling equals underclass and private school (usually Catholic) equals non-underclass.

I went to public high school and so did most of the relatives in my generation. Nearly none of the relatives in the my extended families’ youngest generation are going to public schools.

As mentioned above I don’t believe in accidents any more. events that transpire don’t have to be a conspiracy but they are an expression of concious will of the people involved. And I am convinced that primary and secondary education is key to the quality of our society.

I usually can’t vent about the havok I see in the California Criminal and Civil Courts on an individual basis but it bothers me. I think most of this pathology was avoidable. I think things are about to get much worse. And the pain is running differently in different populations.

Public school education is more important to quality of life as flouride in the water is to the level of dental carries. And the process works the same way. Yet somehow we abandoned what works in school in favor of operating failure factories.

I have the blog bookmarked and I can check it out while I’m thinking about what to do on a person’s case - or have just got through giving bad news to someone - or had a difficult meeting.

25 years ago I think it was easier to fix things for people. Now you can’t fix people’s problems as fast as they can make new ones. The price people pay for being improvident now is their lives. And that goes for the victims too. The one thing I see in the most screwed up people is that they got coddled more and got less intensive education. And I don’t mean grad school. Just going to a tough grade school allows the person to wear better throughout their life.

Sometimes I want to apologize for being abrupt on this blog - but I don’t because this is an exchange of ideas and policy not an interpersonal relationship thing. When I write it’s often because I’ve just come back from some kind of event and I’m annoyed. So I look up the education blog. Following the dialog here sometimes helps me delay making a final decision I have to make about somebody’s life that can’t be taken back.

While some people act out criminally because they are ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disordered), that is a small percentage of the total. Most of the people I see having problems have been conditioned and trained to behave a certain way because no one cared enough about them and their future to correct them. Then they run into CA’s 3 strike system.

Example: last night I stopped by a drugstore chain and a shoplifter had tried to fight his/her way out, turning a misdemeanor shoplift into a felony strike robbery. The cops were laughing about it - so did I. It doesn’t matter that the goods were $10, nor should it. This is how some people around here land in prison. Any felony with 2 strikes on your rap is 25 to life minimum.

I have seen 19 year olds plead to 50 to life when faced with 100 to life minimum at trial. These people probably cursed and struck teachers also.

By ironmaiden

September 26, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Jim D - I’m certainly willing to be more accountable for the students who come to class prepared to learn. Chronicaly absent? Dead asleep? Drugged out? No materials, except a honeybun via the vending machine? I’ve been in and out of the education system at the HS level since 1972, and I totally agree with the proposal that students need to complete regular academics at age 16. Let them prove worthy of additional taxpayer resources.

By jim d

September 26, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Iron,

I really had little doubt that the bloggers here would take the challenge and assume responsibility if presented the opportunity. I fear however, that there may be others that would quickly grab the power and attempt to lay the accontability off on others.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 26, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

Janine: My comments were limited to performance this year over the previous year’s. Laura’s story touched on test scores going back several years, which, when compared to this year’s, showed significant improvements in some — but not all — areas.

Of course, every reporter looks at a story differently and has the prerogative to report what he or she thinks is most newsworthy. Obviously I didn’t work on the story with Laura. If you have questions about her report, I suggest you direct them to her at ldiamond@ajc.com.

As for whether the Editorial Board will write about the scores, we’ll have to wait and see.

By DB

September 26, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

SET, thank you for answering my question. I may not always agree with all your comments (which is what makes blogs interesting, no?), but I almost always find them thoughtful and well-considered. I just couldn’t quite connect the California-Georgia dots in my head!

By holdingAJCaccountable

September 26, 2007 6:20 PM | Link to this

From SET “I have seen 19 year olds plead to 50 to life when faced with 100 to life minimum at trial. These people probably cursed and struck teachers also.”

And their mommas are the first one on the news crying “He was such a nice boy” when teacher after teacher after teacher tried to tell them about his lack of respect for adult authority figures.

Too bad it took a judge to say it before they both finally got it.

By JustMe

September 27, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

SET -

While I now understand your background and your current environment, please keep in mind that this blog is about Ed in GA.

I have come to realize that GA is very different from CA. Your comments, while may be true in CA, will likely not apply to GA.

Maybe if you start your postings with, “In CA, …….” ?

In GA, as an adult that has had a career in the corporate world and then in education, I have seen no such conspiracy that you continue to describe. Maybe it exists only in CA?