Get Schooled

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

I think non-discipline-related Alternative schools (including web-based and night schools) are the way to go.

I also had a junior at Newton who dropped out mid-semester and went to a program called Fauth Academy in either Conyers or Covington instead. It seemed to work for her. Another student did the same thing after her sophomore year (while I was at Randolph, I found out because she’s one of the ones I still remain in sporadic contact with), and again, it seemed to work. Note that this second student in particular doesn’t exactly have the best home life in the world. In fact, from what I have been told, it is barely better than an old friend of mine’s.

This particular friend was a student with me at the alternative school I went to, and at our mentor’s retirement ceremony she was the first success story he mentioned. Things that I knew about: had gotten involved with drugs, lived with friends (no adults in the house over 22 or so, if that), I picked her up a couple of times so she would have a ride to school, some teachers did as well. She has since not only graduated HS, but went to college and got her fashion design associate’s degree. According to her myspace, she works for some Atlanta company called Wendy-O’s. She lives somewhere around Midtown last I heard.

In other words, she overcame FAR more than I, and she is STILL making something of herself.

It takes a LOT of determination to pull yourself back up after being kicked down like we have. And I in particular had a lot of support that most like me don’t/ didn’t. This is one area where I think public schools have a valid interest in doing FAR more than they currently do.

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Sorry for the typo (the one I caught anyway!):

It should be “FAITH” Academy.

BTW: Here’s their website:

http://www.faithaca.org/Georgia/index.html

By jim d

September 20, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I concur that this is great for the kids it helps. However, after reviewing the schools web sites and their historical data, it appears it really isn’t helping many of them. Crim appears to be trying but Faith appears to be little more than a diploma mill for kids that don’t have an inclination to really work for a HS diploma through traditional means.

By JustMe

September 20, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

I will say this….

Trying to help troubled students is a double edged sword for schools. Try to help, and some people will say that schools are over-stepping their boundaries (jim d and SET come to mind). Don’t do anything, and some people will fault the school anyway.

Wonder why the kid is troubled to start with? Look at the parents. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The real question is…. does our society want the same people that screwed up the kid in the first place to be in charge of fixing the kid?

By jim d

September 20, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Actually Just me, I just gave a public school a compliment for trying. They in fact are making an honest effort to help these kids. They are not inserting themselves into the students lifes, merely offering them an opportunity to EARN a diploma.

Faith on the other hand appears to be handing out diplomas to anyone with the funds to buy one.

By Stacey

September 20, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

Fortunately, I don’t have any personal experience (as a kid or parent). I agree that it is crucial to reach these “at risk” kids as early as and by whatever means necessary but I don’t have the answer. The thing that concerns me about some programs though is that is seems that the incentives to “bribe” the at risk kids are better than the rewards offered to those who stay on the right path to begin with. To me, that somehow doesn’t seem right.

By SET

September 20, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Disfunctional kids should not be sitting next to normal kids. They should be removed from the campus academic students go to and sent to alternative schools. Requests to transfer back should be considered after a year or more.

Public schools are not mental hospitals and the vast majority of disfunctionals I see have a significant problem and it’s often genetic as well as social. Their families are often no good and dealing with the child typically involves dealing with the no good family also.

This doesn’t mean they are evil although some of these families are. It can mean they are dangerous to themselves and others. And the danger is subtle. They will introduce drugs, sex and risky behavior to others who are normally not into these behaviors. They may be psychopathic, come from psychopathic families (genetic!) and already have diagnosed conduct disorders by 11 years old.

You can’t run a good school with these people in it. They belong in special schools - reform schools come to mind.

And make no mistake. The racial distribution of these problem children are not equal. You will have disproportionate percentages (of the presence of Psychopathy) in the various races. It needs to be clear up front that it won’t matter to the school that the transfers will disfavor a certain group. Ethnic Gypsies will often not make the cut… Boo Hoo. Asians such as Chinese will have a lower percentage of psychopathy. The studies on these racial distributions go way back not that you need to reference them any more.

Because Canon Law for the public schools is that all men are created equal no matter what your eyes tell you - all effective discipline is blocked because it produces racially disparate results. So we have a race to the bottom on deportment. In the end the “minorities” who are being protected from discipline become worse than ever and the distain for them grows to unprecedented levels. That’s what we teach in public school.

Do I think turning this around is the school’s duty? Hell yes. It is the duty of the public schools to teach deportment. Regardless of the parent’s wishes or standards. If they are in the school the students are to learn how to walk and talk and sit.The parents can also teach the familiy rules so the kids can learn to switch between the US Standard behavior modes to their family/ethnic modes at will. They can do it with speech patterns also (code switching). This is no different.

The goal of all this - deportment and speech training - is to give the child at least a fighting chance to pass into the greater society and not to be trapped in the ghetto of the parent’s making.

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Stacey:

At the discipline-based AS I went to, TRUST me, there WAS NO “bribing”. (Other than the fact that we had a level-based discipline system where higher levels got more privileges. But you EARNED your way up (or down) based on both behavior and academics.)

As far as I know, I hold the record for attaining the highest level as fast as possible and remaining there the longest without dropping - even 6 yrs after HS graduation!

By V for Vendetta

September 20, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

There are some high schools set up for this sort of thing. I think it’s a great idea, but what I don’t understand is why the strict discipline code and rigid attendance policies at school’s like these are not spread around to ALL public schools. If one of the hallmarks of getting troubled kids on track is hard discipline and high expectations, you’d think that it would coincide with the goals of ALL schools. Too bad so many of the “normal” schools lack any form of backbone.

I’m all for helping people who want to help themselves, that’s a no brainer, really. The people in this world who want to descend into the darkness (willingly), however, well they can put a gun to their heads and spare us all a few thousand in tax dollars. If public schools had a backbone, we wouldn’t need special schools or programs for these kids.

Too bad that’s not the case.

By SET

September 20, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta: I believe there are many “normal” schools that do have a backbone.

Remember the earlier thread about people sneaking into other district schools? my high school had higher standards of deportment and academics than all the surrounding school districts. When outsiders snuck into the school - often because the parent talked them into it - they found that they couldn’t survive (or didn’t want to comply with) my school’s higher standards of performance and behavior. Most often they would leave willingly because it wasn’t working out at all.

Think of it as “Ghetto Repellant”. My school would punish for public displays of affection, not turning in assignments, tardyness, etc. Any insubordination to staff meant instant referral to the dean. Shouting or cursing another student, falling asleep in class, or annoying behavior got you sent to the office. You got punishment laps around the track at PE for the slightest unsportsman-like conduct, or just not moving fast enough when told to.

Our teachers handed out “Fs” and those students eventually got removed from their classes and either sent to alternative/continuation school or otherwise disposed of. If you couldn’t do the work you were gotten rid of.

None of the other Urban High Schools in the region were as militant on fighting disfunctional behavior. We had counselors and they did spend face time with students that were struggling. There were remedial classes (small) and there were special tutoring sessions for some people. If you defied authority or didn’t do as you were ordered you were out of there.

The parents were very happy about the school policies which were known to everybody before they went to the school (except the outsiders?). The school is the reason why people bought houses in that town because the houses were more expensive than the same houses across the district lines. And we were in a very small independent district in the middle of a gigantic urban school district. No one was there who didn’t want to be.

By Sam B.

September 20, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Pay now, or pay later….we are all going to pay one way…[schooling..] or another [prison and/or welfare payments] I , too , think these kids should be separated from the other students and given every opportunity to find some path that will lead to a life that makes some contribution to the general welfare of us all.

By Stacey

September 20, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Jeff…I’m all for the “bootcamp” type of schools (I’m a bring back the chain-gangs and build more prisons type of girl). A while back I read about an alternative school (I don’t think it was in Georgia) where the kids could earn incentives up to winning a car by staying out of trouble. That’s what I mean by bribe. I’m sure it’s not the norm, though.

By Tony

September 20, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Before becoming a school principal, I taught for several years in our school system’s open campus school. Here, students were admitted to earn credits at their own pace and took the courses required to earn a high school diploma. The students were there by choice and that made a huge difference in the effort they put forth. Some people are highly critical of programs like this that give kids a second chance, but I believe that communities should pull together to help kids make it in life. Schools like this should be established by local boards of education based on the needs of the community being served. There should be no mandate for such programs. I have seen the results of kids who earned their diplomas from the open campus school and the results are very good.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

September 20, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Gee, Bridget an AJC reporter does a story on discipline. What a novel concept! Perhaps you should try it as you cover APS. Let’s see, is it possible that falsifying discipline data in FORTY schools MIGHT be a story?

But that might make higher ups at the AJC upset, as the AJC is the public relations arm of Beverly Hall. Sure the AJC will tell “some” of the story; they have no choice if they want ANY credibility, but never the WHOLE story.

Ask Paul Donsky who wrote about the MASSIVE cheating scandal at APS. Better yet readers ask yourself “Why would a reporter who uncovered a MASSIVE cheating scandal not do a follow up?”

ANY reporter would love to attack that like a pit bull attacking a pork chop. UNLESS higher ups squash it, and that’s what happened.

It’s why Maureen Downey has NEVER written an editorial supporting teachers having the write to enforce discipline. It would make Hall look bad and THAT can’t happen when you’re the public relations arm of APS. Think Downey does a FULL DISCLOSURE that she has friends among APS personnel when she blames teachers but NEVER the system they work under? No, THAT would require the integrity to look at the ugly veneer beneath the facade that is APS and the AJC can’t have that.

Discipline; such a novel concept. Maybe one day Bridget will get some backbone and WRITE about it, not allude to someone else writing about it.

Course you can’t blame her if higher ups want to squash it like they squashed the Donsky story. Everyone’s got to make a living right?

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Stacey:

At my school:

Dress code: FAR more strict than the “base” school. Collared shirt, pants, belt, socks, shoes, shirt MUST be tucked in. When you walked in in the morning, you were scanned - including the bottom of your shoe - with a wand metal detector and your socks were checked for contraband.

Entrance: While it had 3 exterior doors, entrance was at ONE of them. This particular door was at the end of a roughly 15’ long hallway that jutted off from the main hallway and was right beside the main office. The ISS instructor worked the wand, the Principal checked attendance, and the lunch lady got your lunch order. All right there. After that, the MS kids went to one room and the HS kids went to another before classes began for the day.

LifeSkills: ALL students are required to take a “LifeSkills” class, where they teach a variety of things mostly relating to being a good, productive citizen.

Rest room breaks: At lunch ONLY. One at a time.

Contracts: Every student signs a behavioral contract prior to enrollment.

“Safety”: Several of us - myself included - had a “safety” clause in our contracts. The basic idea is that if you feel yourself getting so mad that you are about to do something that will get you in trouble, you simply tell your teacher as you are walking out of class that you are taking a safety and you walk down to the Principal’s office. He gives you a few minutes to calm down, and then he talks to you about the situation, calling in other people and meting out punishment as necessary - on ANY party, including yourself (the person taking the safety was generally given a lesser punishment due to the fact that he had done the more correct thing and walked away, however he was still held responsible for his actions prior to taking the safety).

Class structure: Depends on the student body composition at any given time. Since I was typically the only student taking my particular course, I was often self-study. However, I have seen cases of group study and even “normal” classes.

Levels: 1-5. Everybody starts on 3. Point based, based on grades and behavior. Each teacher rates every student, and the principal then compiles it into one list. 80% of possible points for two consecutive weeks gets you Level 4, 90% of your points for 3 consecutive weeks gets you Level 5. Drop below the cut off, and you drop out of that level. I personally - to the best of my knowledge - never got less than 95% of my points.

Level incentives: Level 5 got a pizza party once a month. Level 4 got to eat in a room away from everyone else once every couple of weeks. (Same food, you just didn’t have to be with the “common folk” :P). Level 3 was normal, no bonuses, but no sanctions either. Level 2 was essentially silent lunch in the hall, plus no coke machine priveleges. Level 1 was ISS. Technically, there was also Level 0 - OSS. Spend more than about 10-15 days in a semester on Levels 1 or 0, and you were “separated” - kicked out.

Max enrollment: They keep playing with these figures, but we only had one teacher per subject. Max enrollment while I was there was somewhere between 60 and 90 students. They typically had a waiting list of anywhere between double and triple that number.

Other things: One memorable occassion at the school was back when I was still under court-supervision (had to take an anger management class, no official “probation” or any such) my first semester there. They called all of us DJJ cases in to the lunch room. City cops came in and called one of the students to the front. The proceeded to slam him on the table right in front of us, cuff him (including ankle cuffs), and arrest him. Evidently he had broken his probation some how. (Think he had been caught with drugs again, but unsure.)

At my school, as in any such program, it basically boils down to “Who wants out?”. If you have the drive to do better, the people there will help you as much as they can. If you don’t, they’ll do what they can, but they readily admit that they will see you again soon, or you’ll be inside a cell soon.

By jim d

September 20, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

With that history, why in heavens name did you ever think of attempting to teach?

I’m not trying to be mean here, but you should have known you had serious issues that must be addressed before ever contemplating entering a class room full of kids.

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

jim:

A) You don’t know the full story of how/why I wound up there. Few do. And it shall stay that way.

B) While there (and, to a lesser extent, while at KSU), I learned to handle things FAR better than I had. It then became my mission to pass on what I had learned. To help others, and hopefully to prevent them from making at least some of the stupid mistakes that I had that had caused so much pain and suffering - for me and many around me. THAT is why I went into teaching. It is also why I tried working at the Wilderness Camp and why I went back at least once every couple of months until the Principal - who had become my mentor, and - for a season - more important to me than my own dad - retired to help out, tutor the kids, and try to give them hope.

By jim d

September 20, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

again no hurt intended. Far better just isn’t good enough when dealing with other peoples children in a public school setting especially when one is dealing with anger management problems.

By Jeff

September 20, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

jim:

You don’t get it. I have NO anger management issues anymore - and the court was just trying to say they did “something” anyway. All part of the story that you shall not be privy to.

We tend to have differing philosphies about things, but that is really the ONLY difference between the two of us. Indeed, of the two of us, I would go so far as to say that YOU are more likely to do serious, permanent violent damage to someone than I - THAT is how unlikely it is for me.

Indeed, the only times you see me going extreme - or really even engaging physically AT ALL - are in DEFENSE, either of me, ones I care about, or ones in my charge. I can honestly say that I haven’t thrown an OFFENSIVE (in terms of “of, relating to, or designed for attack”) since BEFORE my time at the Academy. (Indeed, every single time I went physical at Randolph was in defense of myself or another student!)

By V for Vendetta

September 20, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

SET -

You are absolutely right, some schools DO have a backbone, and a large one at that. What I was lamenting was the fact that many of the “good” schools around here are finding their backbones reduced at the request of the county and/or state educrats. Admittedly, this is far more common at the county level where older teachers who are used to strict enforcement of discipline find themselves in trouble because they actually ENFORCED a rule. Shocking!

I completely agree that there are a great many schools that are still shining examples of education and discipline, but there in the metro-Atlanta area the two “best” school districts — Cobb and Gwinnett — are presenting a front of ever-shrinking backbones. If I felt safe about enforcing the rules, I absolutely would!

That doesn’t seem to be the case these days, and until my school proves me wrong I will continue to watch my @ss and enforce as much discipline as I can get away with. Come to think of it, it’s really sad I have to put it way. Sigh.

PS - jimd, are you, perhaps, testing Jeff’s anger management skills? :-) Just kidding guys.

By WFC

September 21, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Should public schools be charged with attempting to reform “troubled youth?” Depends on what you mean by “troubled youth.”

By jim d

September 21, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

V,

Testing Jeff?

No indeed, just making an observation based on his previous posts re; his history and relating them to a few comments he’s made in the past such as,

“Toss a couple of YellowJackets into the mix. Or whatever they’re called… the plastic grenades they use in prisons”

“let me put it this way: ANYTHING short of lethal force should be used.”

”- go lethal.”

By Jeff

September 21, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

jim:

Gee, its great to know that you keep track of my comments…

sounds kinda like stalking, but I’ll take it as flattery…

By Jeff

September 21, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this

Jim:

One thing I do ask:

Show the FULL comment, IN CONTEXT.

I can take selected phrases from Mother Teresa and make her look worse than Hitler. But when the full comment and contexts are shown, it is obvious to all that she is truly among the Saints of Heaven.

By Terry

September 21, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Here’s a story for you— Brigitte I sent you this…..Please contact me: Who will protect the children in Forsyth County?

Special Ed Director Demoted Because She did her Job. She informed parents of their rights - helped children with aspergers, autism and many disabilities

If anyone knows Ms. Purdie, she is a well-respected and highly ethical educator. Truly a giant in Special Education. She did her job well and did it by the book. Yet Forsyth Schools has chosen to demote her to an ineffective position, even though she has consistently helped special education students in Forsyth County and has likely saved the district thousands of dollars on litigation.

I believe the State Superintendent of Schools needs to realize that the citizens in the community are getting wiser on how school systems choose to operate, often above the law and use retaliatory measures on the most ethical educators in the system. Georgia Public Schools act as if they are above the law and even violate many rules under IDEA, IDEA and 504 and other Federal Statutes. Sharon Purdie did her job so well, that the school system demoted her. This is happening all too often and the legislators in Georgia need to understand that Retaliation on ethical educators needs to stop.

Many in the community are tired of the power struggle between administration and the special education department, which greatly effects the special needs children and the special ed teachers.

There are lawsuits on the Forsyth School district for retaliation on the parents of special ed students. This is an abomination. In addition, now the district is retaliating on ethical educators. Too many educators are being ‘forced to resign’, demoted, re-assigned or fired. Our turnover rate for educators is very high for a system this size.

Please view this petition:

www.petitiononline.com/0928

and feel free to circulate. It is time the Georiga Legislators make school systems pay a heavy price for retaliation on ethical educators that follow state and federal education statutes.

When can we close the gaps on this nonsense? At the same time the legislation needs to close the gaps on school systems for unfounded claims and complaints to DFACS on parents. Yes, this happens too - All too often as a measure for school systems to thwart the efforts of parents who only want a 50-50 agreement with school systems for their special ed children in the Georgia Public School System. Georgia public schools will never rise out of the 40’s rank in terms of education unless the legislators effectively deal with the problems.

http://www.forsythnews.com/news/stories/20070920/localnews/197942.shtml

By jim d

September 21, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

It really isn’t necessary to track them jeff, they exist here, http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/education/entries/

Whether in context or not Jeff, Comments like these from someone who has proclaimed they “have had” anger management issues, is rather disturbing.

I would recommend nuclear weapons to break up fights

AMEN!! Send a kid to ICU - maybe even the morgue,

You put the fear of GOD into those kids

I will cop to the take no prisoners attitude, and I will even admit to having a very fiery temper.—— like detonating a nuclear weapon: INREDIBLY destructive if ever unleashed, and even a partial explosion and cause pretty heavy devastation,

We, as Americans, could not stomach the measures necssary to have true school security.

I am a middle school teacher in South GA. There is a LOT that the public thinks of as evil that you will hear me defending at the top of my voice.

If it was LEGAL for me to PERSONALLY garauntee security at my school, I would do it in a heartbeat.

my defensive methods sometimes could wind up with body bags being needed

Teachers are not allowed to have any form of weapon at school. Change that law, and my school will be secured

I can pretty much garauntee you how I would react, whether I have just my fists or a Colt .45 ACP

By Jeff

September 21, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

jim:

Again, partial quotes with no context. Even the link you provided does not help, as people have to know EXACTLY where to look.

Again, that you do seems to me to be a form of online stalking.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 8:05 AM | Link to this

In my ideal world, the public school should not be a place to ‘fix’ these ‘broken’ kids. They should attend a special school within the school system where they regularly see a therapist and get other professional help.

‘Broken’ students that are in the public school only serve to disrupt learning and it is not fair to the other students.

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

JustMe:

I will agree with you, in SLIGHT part:

These kids need some form of alternative school to go to, but “therapy” is rarely needed. (Well, at the non-discipline Alt Schools it may be more in demand.)

What IS needed in these schools are the “LifeSkills” classes that we took in mine. Honestly, while many of the lessons were things that I had already mastered, some of them were quite valuable. For those without the support/discipline structure I already had, they were even more valuable.

And then you have those that need more specialized services - teen pregnancy, drug abuse, abusive parents, you name it, I’ve known kids at the Alternative School that I went to that have had to deal with it. Some of them overcame their situations, sadly, many did not.

Unless you’re talking night school/ weekend school (things I also propose as valid options), when you get to the point where you need an Alternative School, it really tests you to find out exactly what you’re made of.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Actually Jeff,

Schools just need to exercise the authority they already have and much of the need for alternative schools would be eliminated.

Are you aware that in something like 22 states (including Ga.) corporal punishment is still legal?

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

jim:

The level of discipline needed in discipline-related AltSchools goes FAR beyond corporal punishment. In fact, in some cases, it goes close to even the line that I would draw, much less yourself.

Also, much of the problem in “mainstream” schools that creates the NEED for AltSchools (discipline-related) is because of parents much like yourself that complain that “you can’t do that to my kid” or “my kid has rights” or some other similar such nonsense.

But yes, I did know corporal punishment was allowed. I even had to witness it a couple of times at Randolph, being applied to both some of my students and some other students when I just happened to be in the office and the secretary was busy. (Chris Cooks is a man I can honestly say I would work for in any situation again. HIS boss - Bobby Jenkins - well, you know my feelings about Jenkins.)

By Jo

September 27, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

“Troubled” & “At Risk” are politically correct euphemisms for evil, Satanic monsters who deserve prison sentences. Too bad teachers aren’t allowed to beat those troublemakers. But, noooooo, we have to HELP them. Meanwhile, innocent kids are daily beaten & bullied for the “crime” of being different. I’m NEVER having kids!

By SET

September 27, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

In CA we use powerful psychotrophics to put these kids into “chemical” straitjackets. It gets the teachers through the day!