Get Schooled

By DB

September 19, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

Kids are definitely not getting enough sleep, that’s the main problem. When I was growing up, I was a senior before my parents accepted “must do homework!” as an excuse to stay up past 10:30 or 11:00 am, and that was with a school that started at 8:30 am three miles from my home.

Kids (and adults, admittedly) get lost in cyberland and lose track of time, and parents, many of whom are equally exhausted, don’t police their children’s time. Also, the rule of “cell phone gets charged in the kitchen, not the bedroom” went into effect when I discovered that she was going to bed at 11:30 pm — and then talking to her boyfriend for an hour. Hello? The kid has to get up at 6:15, which means she was getting less than 6 hours of sleep, and not getting home from band practice until after 7 pm?! No one can function well for a prolonged period of time on that little sleep.

I fully expect that many teen auto accidents are a result of fatigue, combined with inexperience.

Have fun with jury duty! I had to do it about a month ago and got selected for a jury pool — believe me, those chairs in the waiting room are a LOT more comfortable than those god-awful benches in the courtroom!

By jim d

September 19, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

DB,

I must take issue with your comment that “No one can function well for a prolonged period of time on that little sleep.”

Actually we can. I’ve been averaging about 4-5 hrs. since I was in HS myself.(back in the day)As a rule? well I suppose most people do require a bit more sleep. I assure you that my child does. He gets about 8 hours a night during the week and 12 on the weekends. Does he doze of in school? I’m pretty sure he does since some classes and even teachers tend to have that effect on people.

Want to put me to sleep? Just place me in a doctors office waiting room—Cutting ZZZ’s in 5 minutes.

By Lisa B.

September 19, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

My 8th grade son’s friends text him ALL NIGHT! I know this, because his phone goes into my bedroom at 9 PM, so he can read for awhile until he falls asleep. Upon waking, my son busily checks his text messages on his cell phone and computer as he eats breakfast. I now work in middle school, and know many of my son’s friends. I ask them what they are doing texting people in the middle of the night. Their parents aren’t aware of their escapades and think their kids are sleeping.

Take the computers, cell phones, electronic games and televisions out of their bedrooms. If my son occassionally stays up too late reading a “really good part” of a book, I can handle that. He usually falls asleep pretty quickly without all the distractions.

I agree with DB. The main reason kids fall asleep in school, is because they don’t get enough sleep!

Hopefully Bridgette, school isn’t as boring as jury duty :-)

By unclefast

September 19, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

I’m a HS teacher on my planning period checking the news. Just letting you know before I get flamed. I teach Juniors and Seniors. A huge number have after- school jobs…..some close businesses as late as midnight. More HS students work at jobs than did when I was in high school in the early ’70s. Others have Band, Football, other activities after school. I surprised more aren’t sleep deprived.

By Old School

September 19, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Cell phones and after school jobs, I’m not completely convinced students NEED either. There are a very few who need jobs to help their families but most are supporting their rides. For them school is an inconvenience and elective classes are for catching up on the sleep they missed the night before. My worst offenders are seldom seen actually carrying books or notebooks.

I totally agree with getting computers, tvs, dvd players, gaming devices, cell & landline phones out of their bedrooms. They need the dark and quiet to get some quality sleep and they need to stay awake in class…they might slip up and learn something.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

DB: True, the armchairs aren’t too bad for the first hour or so. After about three hours, though, I wouldn’t mind trying out the bench.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Lisa B: I hope so, too. But I can’t help but wonder how many classrooms out there might strongly resemble this jury room.

By SET

September 19, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Sleeping students need to be referred to the school office and put out of the classroom. I’d say school nurse but school nurses aren’t around anymore.

Yes they may be up all night texting. They’re children and haven’t learned self discipline. They will learn that when Mommy and Daddy are called at work to come get the kid at school - and if it keeps happing they should be excluded from class until medically cleared.

The way kids (and adults) grow up is having to pay the price for their indiscipline. Giving them a pass - overlooking poor performance - just makes things worse. The kids aren’t bad, they’re just learning. The job of school is to help them learn. Generations ago we helped kids learn quick and cheaply with a paddle. They learned very fast.

Now we do it much slower. We let children in public schools do what they want all their adolescence, then put them in state prison when they turn 18 and step over certain lines.

I’d prefer the public schools teach these lessons early and often. It saves a lot of pain later in life for the kids.

By Jeff

September 19, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

I’m sure T and I will disagree on this one, as we aleady do, to a certain extent.

She LOVES TVs in the bedroom. Indeed, there is one in our bedroom right now. She says she can’t sleep without it on. It has been an adjustment for me to sleep WITH it on!

Now, I’ll probably put my foot down on TVs/ computers etc in the kids’ bedrooms. No need. As has been said, books, cool. Even if you stay up literally all night - and I have been known to - at least you’re READING. I’ll probably allow a night light and a radio in the bedroom, but nothing else electronic (other than the overhead light of course).

Now, as far as after school jobs go: I got one back in the day so I didn’t have to beg mom and dad to do things. Their attitude was always one of “as long as you’re wasting your own money and not ours, we aint really gonna say too much”. I’ll probably be the same way.

Course, as Lisa knows, there isn’t much to do around where I live OTHER than extra-curriculars, an after school job, or getting into trouble. Of the three, I would MUCH prefer the first two!

By Jj

September 19, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

My daughter’s cell gets turned off when she is doing homework, and at bedtime. I realized she was staying up until close to 1:00 texting, as were her friends. I now take the phone into my room at 10:00p.m. and turn it off. She gets it back in the car on the way to school.

By lovelyliz

September 19, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

There’s an epidemic of teens talking on their cell phones at 11 PM on a school night. Then there are the ones who stay up way too late playing video games and watching movies on the television in their bedrooms.

I know as a former teenager and teacher that if school were to start an hour or two later, the students would spend that much more time the night before doing their stuff. They would be just as sleep deprived if school started at 9 AM as opposed to 7:30 or 8:00 in the morning.

By Tony

September 19, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Sleeping in class - wow. You cited two examples but omitted the most egregious - Doc Neese. He had the audacity to give a student the deserved grade and was fired as a result. School is a place for learning and one of the biggest problems is the amount of basic parenting that has been forced upon the institution. It should not be our job to police the sleepers - parents should ensure the children are rested and ready for school. It is so sad that many parents do not do their basic jobs. The examples cited of games, cell phones, texting, and TV just scratch the surface. Recently, parents want schools to provide FREE driving instruction.

Sleepers should be ejected from school. They are wasting precious resources that would benefit others. Unfortunately, schools are now penalized for low graduation rates. That means we have to keep the freeloaders in school and “motivate” them to graduate.

By Dana @ DOE

September 19, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Hey Bridget — maybe you were just a boring speaker! :-)

Enjoy Jury Duty.

By Stacey

September 19, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Back when I was in high school, the teachers would do things such as burst a paperbag, drop a book or pour water on the head of a sleeping student. I had a friend who would fall asleep in American Lit EVERY DAY (the class was immediately after lunch). I always woke her up when I noticed she was sleeping because she was known to snore rather loudly. One day when I was out sick the teacher and the rest of the students decided to teacher her lesson and didn’t wake her when the bell rang to change classes. Since it was Mrs. McKay’s planning period following that class, she turned the light off, closed the door and reported to bathroom guard duty. She left a note on the board for M to come get a hall pass when she woke up. M slept straight through the next period and did not wake up until Mrs. McKay’s 6th period class started filing in! LOL

By the way, M continued to fall asleep in class throughout high school. She is now an Asst Principal at an elementary school in AL. I would love to know how she deals with sleepers at her school.

By JJ

September 19, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

I believe that parents need to quit being afraid of their kids, and lay down the law in their homes.

Studies have shown that kids of high school age need AT LEAST 8 - 10 hours of sleep a day. High schoolers should be in bed by 11:00 on school nights. Middle schoolers, 10:00 and elems, between 8 - 9 p.m.

Parent your kid. Remember you are the boss in your home. Do not let your kids have control, they will run all over you!!!!!

By Sherman Dorn

September 19, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

I got to jury-room blogging before you, but I strongly suspect I’m not the first, either.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Tony: What I find interesting about this issue is that it’s not just a bunch of slacker students we’re talking about here.

In the case you cited, Larry “Doc” Neace was teaching physics — hardly a course for a high school flunky.

In the instances I cited, both groups were supposedly made up of highly motivated, college-bound kids. And both were instances where the students themselves presumably chose to participate — an elective SAT prep class and an off-campus student conference.

So how do you explain the classroom-slumber syndrome when it also afflicts the best and brightest?

By KEITH

September 19, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

WHO CARE BOUT ALL DEM WITE KIDS WASTIN ALL DEY TIME SLEEPIN IN SCOOL WHUT WE NEEDS IS LESS WITE MAN LAWS AN BE GIT VICK BACK ON DE FIELD SO DE FALCONS BE WINNIN SOME MO AN VICK BE GWAN GIT DAT RING NOE WHUT IM SAYIN

By jim d

September 19, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Yo Tony,

how about kicking out a few teachers that have a tendancy to put one to sleep as well? Sound fair to you?

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

Dana: I took comfort in the group of energetic kids who told me I was “awesome” as I was leaving the conference. Kind of reminds me of this blog: Some like it, some hate it. Go figure.

By recentgrad

September 19, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

The problem of sleeping in class has little to do with exhaustion and a lot to do with boredom. Sure there are a few who are just tired but that is definitely the minority. Most teachers today, at least in middle and high school, do not teach. Rather, they do little more than read from the assigned textbook. This is after the teacher has already assigned the text to read for homework and has allowed time for reading in class. It is so repetitve that drifting off to sleep is common. Maybe if the teachers gave the students incentives like new interesting info, the kids my stay awake.

By recentgrad

September 19, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

The problem of sleeping in class has little to do with exhaustion and a lot to do with boredom. Sure there are a few who are just tired but that is definitely the minority. Most teachers today, at least in middle and high school, do not teach. Rather, they do little more than read from the assigned textbook. This is after the teacher has already assigned the text to read for homework and has allowed time for reading in class. It is so repetitve that drifting off to sleep is common. Maybe if the teachers gave the students incentives like new interesting info, the kids may stay awake.

By Florine Crews

September 19, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

What about younger students in elementary school. Many teachers allow these children to sleep in class; especially if they are a bit talkative or disruptive while awake. As a recently retired kindergarten teacher, I recently received a call from the concerned parent of one of my former students. The child’s 2nd grade teacher allows him to sleep in class; which the parents know I would never stand for. A sleeping child cannot learn. I have taught students who were on various medications, nodding out from drug exposure, staying up late watching movies, and playing games, or running and playing in the streets at night. When I would see a child dozing, I would quietly have him/her stand until the sleepiness passed. Worked for us!

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

HEY, KEITH. TURN OFF YOUR CAPS. THEN CHECK OUT OUR FALCONS BLOG, WHICH IS APPARENTLY WHERE YOU SHOULD BE.

By Old School

September 19, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

Now Bridgette, even the best and brightest will text into the wee hours. They are still kids and still do kid things…maybe just at a higher level.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

Hi, Mr. Dorn. I figured I wasn’t the first on the Internet. But how about in Atlanta? Could you give me that?

By jim d

September 19, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Ms. Crews,

Great job of creative teaching.

I’ve always contended that if students don’t learn the ways teachers teach that teachers should be adabting to teach the way students learn. Sometimes their little bottoms just go to sleep from setting so long. Especially in schools that have eliminated recess. But then thats a blog for another day.

By DB

September 19, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

My mother taught for 35 years. In one of her middle-school math classes, she had a kid who sat in the back, tipped the chair against the wall (after repeated remonstrations), and one day fell asleep. Loudly and resoundingly asleep, with mouth gaping open. The kids in the class kept watching him, then watching my mother, to see what would happen. She continued on with her lecture, but moved to the desk, picked up a wad of Kleenex, and, continuing her lecture, moved quietly down the aisle to the child — who didn’t stir and kept right on snoring. Deftly, she popped the wad of Kleenex in his mouth, and moved away, continuing to talk. Of course, by this point, no one was listening to her, as they watched in fascination as the sleeper, in a groggy haze, realized that he had something in his mouth and woke up with a spectacular “Augh-augh!!!” and fell flat on his tush out of his desk … ever try to wipe wet tissue out of your mouth? Euw!!! He never slept again — there’s a lot to be said for public humiliation! :-)

By jim d

September 19, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Hey Bridgett,

While you’re down there try to keep an eye open for any of those APS folks that cover up discipline issues. You might get a story to silence one of your distractors.

:-)

By DB

September 19, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

jim d: It’s a well know fact that the elderly don’t need as much sleep. :-) (Ducking and running)

By DB

September 19, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

jim d: It’s a well known fact that the elderly don’t need as much sleep. :-) (Ducking and running)

By jim d

September 19, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

ooops, sorry about the double tt—finger spazzed out!

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

September 19, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

It all falls back on the parents. Make the kids go to bed earlier!!!!! Holy Cow. My kids are l5 and 10. We are ALL in bed by 9:30 at the LATEST.

By Life is tiring

September 19, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Just because a person’s had enough sleep doesn’t mean he’s not tired. Life can be tiring - work, study, chores, activities, illness, listening to lectures. Heck, I’ve been known to try to catch a secret catnap at my desk at the office. I know jury duty can be very boring and exhausting. In the law firm where I work someone put up a copy of a note written to the judge by a juror who apparently snapped after days of boring testimony. It was hilarious. Every time I report for jury duty and sit for an entire boring day without being chosen I get very annoyed, but maybe I should be glad because sitting on a jury is even more boring.

By lovelyliz

September 19, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Who do the sleeping students really bother? If they are a detriment only to themselves and the rest of the classroom can function, I would be incline to let the teacher make note of who is sleeping in class and conduct the lesson as usual. This way when the parents want to know why John/Jane Doe are flunking, the school can explain why.

Some teachers are boring, but some subjects are naturally on the boring side too. The boredom of the teacher should not be called into question if the rest of the students are engaged and learning.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Old School: I was responding to Tony’s assertion that these kids need to be kicked out of school. He seemed to suggest that only slacker kids or “freeloaders” as he called them fall asleep in class.

Obviously, that’s not true.

By Dana @ DOE

September 19, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I was kidding, of course, Bridget.

It’s ironic: It’s hard to get my 14 month old to sleep at all. But when he’s 14, I probably won’t be able to keep him awake.

So, did you get chosen for a jury? If you want to avoid it, just walk in and answer “HE’S GUILTY” to every question.

By Dave

September 19, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

I had a math class right after lunch. The room was always stuffy and hot. All the sugar from lunch would hit my system in that warm room and there was almost no way to fight the sleepies. I learned not to schedule anything after lunch that required thinking.

By Tony

September 19, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Sleeping in class is an inappropriate behavior regardless of the clientele with which we are dealing. Part of the problem with this and other behaviors is that we have too often made excuses for why it’s okay sometimes and not others. Sending a sleeper home to get rested so they can participate in school appropriately would send the message that staying awake at school is expected. Lowering a grade for a student who sleeps during class sends the message that it is important to remain engaged in class. Chronic sleepers absorb resources from deserving students. If there is a medical issue, the parents need to seek treatment.

Regarding the once in a great while dozer in class, well I guess I would wake up the student once. We should not excuse bad behavior in the form of sleeping during class.

By Florine Crews

September 19, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Mr. jim d, And when their little bottoms just go to sleep from setting so long, we would all get up and do jumping jacks, Jello Jiggle, Toy Soldier, or something. Yea!

By KEITH

September 19, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

YO BRIDGEET WHUT YOU SAYIN BOUT MY CAPS YOU CAN EVEN SEE ME AN YOU TALKIN BOUT CAPS WRONG WIF YOU GIRL

By jim d

September 19, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Anyone ever think about these kids just having a sleeping disorder? Or maybe the effects of the drugs schools insist they be given?

Then too you gotta admit some classes are so boring they put the teacher to sleep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_yvjHZg4mM&mode=related&search=

By Jill

September 19, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

It is amazing to me that my mom and dad raised four children. Four children who graduated from a four year university, two of us completed graduate school and guess what, we didn’t have a cell phone! Amazing , isn’t it? Oh yes, I know…I hear the arguements now how Jill and Johnny must have a cell phone to communicate with mom and dad. In reality a teen-agers cell phone is for one thing and one thing only, to communicate with other teen-agers. Seems to me like in many of your households, you’ve lost the upperhand to your teens. Great parenting.

By jim d

September 19, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

Wrong Jill,

Teenagers are quite innovative with their phone usage as you can see by going to utube and searching sleeping teachers.

You guys just gotta hate cell phone cameras. LOL

By Michael

September 19, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

Its now chatting, IM’s, checking myspace and youtube profiles Folks these students got to bed at 3:00 AM and get up at 6:00. Even a superman will drowse away

By teach 1

September 19, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

I few years back I had a 6 year old who could not stay awake. I tried everything. When I finally got to talk to mom, she had an explanation. The child was at a sitter until 11:00pm. The sitter would put the boys to bed around 9 pm but mom would wake them up, take them home and THEN do homework with them at 12:00. As much as I loved that mom was trying to be involved, we made some homework adjustments so the child did some homework 5-10 minutes with the sitter and then on the weekend, when mom was not working the evening shift she would do weekend homework. I realize this mom just wanted to be involved but it was crazy. Things got better. The child still was being woken up at 11 but at least he got to go back to sleep instead of waking up for a late night study session.

By Mood-Indigo

September 19, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

I had a bedtime all through HS and even in my senior year it was not later than 10:30. However, I habitually fell asleep in my first period class. It did not matter how much sleep I got the night before, I was not, and am not, a morning person. It is possible that some, not all but some, of the students who fall asleep in class have the same issue. I still have to sneak into the bathroom or to my car and grab a quick 10 minutes during my work day and I am 30 years old!

By catlady

September 19, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

In 34 years I have only had a couple of sleepers, but for both I strongly recommended seeing a doctor. Parents got the message, either it was something medical or something home schedule-related. Both kids turned out to have pretty serious, undetected medical problems that needed attention.

I currently push into a class with a frequent sleeper. Actually, it is one of the ways he disassociates himself and disengages. Much of the rest of the time his actions detract from the class. The temptation is to let him sleep, but that is a problem for three reasons: bad example to the class, child needs more self-discipline and fewer home-related excuses, and the teacher is evaluated on how well he does on CRCT. Sleeping is NOT a part of that test.

However, his disfunctional adult “caretakers” refuse to see there is a problem and are not interested in having him checked out by the doctor. That seems like child neglect to me, but our school system does not consider it an important enough problem to get the social worker involved…..

By Aubrey

September 19, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

My favorite teacher Coach Morgan (honors high school math)used a spray bottle to keep kids up. Of course we didn’t have text messaging in 2000 when i graduated high school so that wasn’t why we fell asleep. He used the squirt bottle he kept next to the overhead projector. I had an equally gregarious geometry teacher who would drop a pile of books next to your head. That was also pretty effective.

By jim d

September 19, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

Narcolepsy

Narcolepsy is a disabling sleep disorder that mixes the nervous system’s messages about when to sleep and when to be awake. Narcolepsy usually starts during the teen years or early adulthood and continues throughout life.

Narcolepsy may cause:

Sudden sleep attacks, which may occur at any time during any type of activity, such as eating dinner, driving the car, or carrying on a conversation. These sleep attacks can occur several times a day and may last from a few minutes to several hours. Sudden, brief periods of muscle weakness while a person is awake (cataplexy). The weakness may affect specific muscle groups or may affect the entire body. These periods of muscle weakness are often brought on by strong emotional reactions, such as laughing or crying. Hallucinations just before a sleep attack. Brief loss of the ability to move when a person is falling asleep or just waking up (sleep paralysis). Medications may help prevent sleep attacks and episodes of muscle weakness, but narcolepsy rarely goes away completely.

By jim d

September 19, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

Sleep problems affect virtually every aspect of day-to-day living, including mood, mental alertness, work performance, and energy level. Yet fewer than 3% of Americans are treated for their sleep problems.

By dukegirl

September 19, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

When I have a sleepy head in class, I make them stand up until they can stay awake. It’s very hard for a student to go to sleep while standing. I did make one exception one time. I had a student who was very sick and the parent wouldn’t come to school to pick her up. I let her sleep in my class until someone could get her. Other than that one time, I make them stand when they decide to go to sleep. Luckily it doesn’t happen very often. :)

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 19, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

Dana: Nope, unfortunately, I didn’t get picked to sit on a jury today.

What are the odds of getting called for jury duty in Fulton County twice and not having to witness a trial either time?

Apparently, pretty good!

By jim d

September 19, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this

Daytime Sleepiness Test

This questionnaire, as distributed by the National Sleep Foundation, can help measure your level of daytime sleepiness. The results are scored according to the Epworth Sleepiness Scale (ESS), which is used by sleep experts worldwide.

For each question, rate the likelihood that you would fall asleep during that activity on the following scale: 0 = would never doze; 1 = slight chance of dozing; 2 = moderate chance of dozing; 3 = high chance of dozing.

If you haven’t done some of these things recently, consider how they likely would affect you.

Sitting and reading

Watching television

Sitting inactive in a public place, for example, a theater or meeting

Sitting as a passenger in a car for an hour without a break

Lying down to rest in the afternoon

Sitting and talking to someone

Sitting quietly after lunch (when you’ve had no alcohol)

If you’ve scored at least 10 points, you may suffer from significant daytime sleepiness, which warrants a trip to your physician.

By jim d

September 19, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

Then there is the cafateria food.

Carbohydrates boost serotonin levels in the brain. After eating a meal or snack that contains mostly carbohydrates, blood insulin levels rise. Insulin reduces blood levels of most amino acids except for tryptophan. This gives tryptophan easy access to the brain. Once in the brain, tryptophan creates serotonin. This process works only when the last meal or snack you eat is almost exclusively composed of carbohydrate.

A recent study by Australian researchers suggests that carbohydrates with a high glycemic index may be best for inducing sleep. High-glycemic foods cause a large spike in blood sugar after being eaten. This leads to a higher blood insulin levels production, helping tryptophan to enter the brain. Examples of high-glycemic foods include jasmine rice, white rice, pasta and potatoes.

By jim d

September 19, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

So Bridget,

Perhaps you were not a boring teacher. It may have been the students diet.

Ya think?

By Sam B.

September 19, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

THere are lots of reasons for sleeping in class. The “regulars”….well, some get very little sleep, some are just totally disconnected from academics. I had a colleague when I taught Middle School who would spray the sleeping kids with water from an old Windex bottle to keep them awake. I would just let them sleep…right through the end of class bell..I would ask the others to be very quiet when leaving … the sleepers would wake up whenever….look around …and find their class had left and they were sitting in another class. HOw embarrassing!! It never happened to the same student twice.

By jim d

September 20, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

It never ceases to amaze me how smart some teachers are. While you are able to see the effects of cronic sleepers, I would have never guessed you were all qualified to make a diagnosis as to if it were health related.

Gee guy’s maybe you really are under paid!

By jim d

September 20, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

Let’s see—so far we have.

1) startling a kid awake with loud noises

2) spraying them with water

3)Forced standing

4)Humiliation

5) kick em out

6) stuffing TP in their mouth

Anyone else see a pattern here that would somewhat deplete the amount of respect students have for teachers? (just curious)

By JustMe

September 20, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

True story…

A student falls asleep in my 1st period every day. I met with the parents to discuss. The parents response?

“Well, we just cannot get him to go to sleep early. He ‘naturally’ falls asleep at 1 AM. He is just ‘naturally’ nocturnal. And, he just doesn’t want to wake up in the morning. He has to get sleep sometime, so we guess he gets to sleep in your class.”

Ya think they will be understanding when he fails the class?

I have also had parents tell me that they actually took their son to a ‘sleep specialist’ who told them that their son’s sleep cycle is “off.” Heck, I could have told them that! But, those same parents do NOTHING to alter that sleep cycle. Try throwing water on the kid in the morning!

By The Sleep Doctor

September 20, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

I think this is a great question and as a former Georgian, and sleep specialist let me tell you a bit about the research:

1) School start times are too early. In fact, the schools in MN are now by law required to start at 9am not 8am and they found that kids in the first 2 periods not only stay awake, but improved their scores by a full letter grade!

2) Teenagers are supposed to sleep late! It is hard coded into their biological clocks that they will naturally stay up late and want to sleep late.

3) TV and Internet are not helping. There has been recent research to show that late night Internet and TV can keep some studients awake.

This is a great topic for discussion!

Sweet Dreams,

Dr. Michael Breus, PhD

By JustMe

September 20, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Sorry Dr. Breus, I simply don’t buy it.

1) If the students DID stay awake in school, no wonder their grades went up. That part, I buy into.

By jim d

September 20, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Just me,

Hows that again?

teenager and teacher that suffers

I really am curious as to how the teacher suffers?

By HB

September 20, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

I do think school schedules are part of the problem with an early start being the least of their issues. The school day should be extended by twenty minutes with a 10-minute break added to the morning and afternoon when kids can walk around a little, chat, take a breather. In the workplace most of us get a 15-minute break every 4 hours — don’t kids deserve the same?

Lunch is a big problem too. I attended 2 high schools. One had 3 lunch waves, 35-40 minutes each, that took place during 4th period, so all students ate between 12 and 1:40 or so — worked well. My other school had a 7-period day with a full period (3rd, 4th, or 5th) for lunch. 3rd period lunch started at 10:30!!! Two-thirds of students had 4 classes with no break either before or after lunch. Such oddball schedules certainly hamper students’s ability to stay alert and engaged.

Somtimes sleepers are just slacking off or staying up too late (I suspect this was the case in Doc Neese’s class — how hard is it to stay awake in lab?!). However, I was a good student, and while I never slept in class, I zoned out or came close to nodding off many times from just having to sit still in lectures for hours on end. I do the same now, despite my best efforts to stay alert, in conference sessions for work on occasion if it’s too soon after lunch or just flat out boring. Both kids habits and teaching methods/school schedules should be considered in trying to address this problem. As for how to handle sleepers, some things mentioned here seem unnecessarily mean, but I don’t see anything wrong with the first 3 things jim d listed. Effective methods that don’t cross the lne in my opinion.

By DB

September 20, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Narcolepsy? Oh, jim d, please! For the vast majority, these are not kids that nod off while they are playing “Halo” or “Guitar Hero” at 1 AM. They are not nodding off while watching “24” at night. They are not nodding off at parties or while at the mall or while talking on the phone with their friends. For the most part, they only fall asleep in class because they are a) tired and/or b) bored, and c) have so little respect for the teacher to even fake it.

If teachers have “daily participation” built into their grading system, they can freely deduct points for those days that kids fall asleep during a lecture on the Versailles Treaty, and it directly affects their grade.

By jim d

September 20, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Hey doc,

You’ll never be right on this blog. We got educators here!

By jim d

September 20, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

DB,

I wasn’t insinuating that all sleepy students were suffering from Narcolepsy. Merely that there may be medical reasons that some kids fall asleep and that teachers do not hold the proper training to determine wheter the cause is “they stayed up late” or if in fact there are underlying medical reasons that are the culprit here. That humilation, hosing them down, forced standing and the like may not be in the best interest of the child and certainly does nothing to garner respect from the students.

By DB

September 20, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

jim d: I think hosing them down, etc., goes along with the quote from Young Frankenstein — “I decided that if I could not inspire love, which is my deepest hope, I would instead cause fear.” :-) True, in some rare cases, there may be medical reasons — but for the most part, I suspect that if a teacher guessed “lack of sleep”, they’d be right 95% of the time. The other 5% is the result of medication/drugs or something more esoteric, like narcolepsy.

Given that — how should a student be awakened when they fall asleep in class? Do you just leave them there? Do you gently shake their shoulder (oops, can’t touch students)?

By JustMe

September 20, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

jim d -

You asked, ‘how do teachers suffer’ when students sleep? Let me count the ways….

1) When administrators come into the classroom, all they really do is scan the room. They easily spot sleeping students and then blame the teacher. Because of course, a good teacher is sooooo entertaining that no student would ever fall asleep - right?

2) That sleeping student may very well have parents that expect them to pass. And at times, no matter what the teacher does, that student is determined to sleep which means they miss the lesson which means they don’g learn which means they fail the assessment. Who do you think that the parents blame? Not their precious student, but the teacher.

3) Finally, most teachers really do want to see their students succeed. When a student sleeps the teacher basically sees a train wreck coming.

By the way jim d - you never responded to my recommendations to you as a parent on what to do about your child not bringing home textbook(s). What did you think?

By the way jim d - as a teacher, I have a job to do. I really couldn’t care less if the kids liked me or not. I really couldn’t care less if they respected me or not (although they sure as heck better behave towards me as if they do). I do not beg for their approval nor do I cry at night if they were to shun me.

After all, they are JUST KIDS and know very little about people skills and the workings of the world. And that, my dear sir, is what you continuously forget in the majority of your posts! You want to treat KIDS like adults and they are not - it really is simple as that.

By jim d

September 21, 2007 8:11 AM | Link to this

You know we’ve had this discussion before, but what the heck—let’s have another go at it.

Generally speaking, the Constitution applies equally to everyone, regardless of age, color, race, religion, or any other factor. Granted some of these rights may be somewhat negated due to what you so astutely point out as “In loco parentis”.

An amazing concept “In loco parentis”. This Latin phrase basically means that while a student is in the custody of a school, the school can and should act as a parent. Keep in mind though that students in public schools are not stripped of their rights completely.

Also note that while you constantly complain that parents are the Devil and the root of all problems that “In loco parentis” places responsibility for these shortcomings on you as teachers as well.

I think we must agree that students in HS, while perhaps not adults in the eyes of the law, are not children either, they are simply young adults. It is a parent’s responsibility to prepare these young adults for real life, including but not limited to the concepts of actions and consequences. In accordance with “In loco parentis” this becomes your job as well. This in no way entails nor permits a teacher violating students rights to remain safe in their person. Teachers hosing down students with a water bottle may be construed as a physical assault in some circles.Your persistent narrow mindedness that students are children with no rights once they enter the school house is the type of thinking that could cost taxpayers millions of dollars in litigation.

As for your comments that your boss seeing a sleeping student and blaming you — is indeed a problem. I’m not sure as to what the answer to that one is other than to say it is a working condition that you have accepted in the terms of your employment and only you can change that. Personally while I object to many of the methods mentioned in this blog for awaking a student, I do support a teachers right to address this issue in the form of a lowered grade for non-participation in class. In other words, possibly failing the student. But then, that you can’t is another condition of employment that you have accepted as teachers. So we end back at my argument that not only do schools need to grow some backbone. SO do teachers! The fact that y’all accept sub- standard working conditions is no one else’s fault so I suggest YOU fix it.

Oh and BTW, my question was rhetorical.

By DB

September 21, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

So, jim d — how would YOU wake up a sleeping student, efficiently and with minimal disruption to the class? Not being a smart-azz, just curious! :-)

I follow your argument re: in loco parentis, but, given that, I will confess that, as a parent, I have been known to employ — ahem! —creative methods for “encouraging” slug-a-beds from their warm, cozy beds after an alarm has gone off and ignored and after a gentle wake-up reminder has been issued.:-) If my child was slack enough to nod off in class, then as far as I’m concerned, the teacher can have at them. It’s rude and counterproductive behavior, and is certainly not conducive to learning!

If a school is, indeed, in loco parentis, then there are a large number of behavioral, societal and moral issues for which you are charging to the school’s responsibility. It would appear, then, that we have the classic managerial worst-case scenario: The school has all of the responsiblity, but none of the authority. That, frankly, is one of the attractive features that led us to private school. The school is strict and unapologetic for its standards of expected behavior — it assumes the authority for enforcing expectations, the parents willingly back up that authority (after all, they chose to be there), and the penalties for not adhering to those expectations are understood by all.

By jim d

September 21, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

As I’ve said, allow them to sleep just lower their grade accordingly. I might even go so far as to install a video recorder and camera in the classroom so digital videos could be downloaded to parents on a daily basis. This in itself could be a pretty good deterent. I seriously believe that most parents would take an active interest. Those that don’t? Well I suppose their kids would just suffer another type of consequence (failing works for me)

By JustMe

September 21, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

jim d-

Your continued insistence to think that minors (children under-the-age) are adults and are therefore afforded all of the rights and priviges included by the law (to include the Constitution, Amendments, etc.) is plain ‘ol WRONG.

Minors are handled completely different under the law.

The reason the law does this is EXACTLY the reason that I continue to repeat - children do not have the life experiences, life skills, lessons learned, etc. to make good judgement decisions.

However, in your small world, you want to pretend that children are EXACTLY like adults. Enjoy your…..

SCARY SMALL IMAGINARY WORLD

By HS Teacher Too

September 21, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

Jimd, Anyone else see a pattern here that would somewhat deplete the amount of respect students have for teachers?

Nope. I think you’re lumping all of these individual ways to wake a student into one pile, and misunderstanding the number of times they are really put to use. In that regard it looks a lot more harsh than it is.

In my experience, I have spoken with students privately to remind them to be awake, but when that fails I have used an occasional technique in this list … which is to say, maybe ONCE a year I need to use ONE of these techniques for a student who is particularly problematic.

Don’t jump to conclusions Jim, we’re not all out to get kids!!!

By HS Teacher Too

September 21, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Oh , Jim d I just saw your post about cameras!!

In one particularly bad year, with one particularly bad child (17 years old, I might add) I did exactly what you said. Result? I was reprimanded, formally, and the parent took their complaint to the board in an effort to get me FIRED! All because I had taken digital photos of HER child, sleeping in class, and mailed the photos to HER and HER alone in response to complaints about her child’s grade in class!

According to the school officials, I had NO RIGHT to do that; I had no release, no waiver and risked getting sued and/or fired.

!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!

$#%^(&^(&#$*@@@#@$&&@^!&!!

And that’s all I have to say about that.

By JustMe

September 21, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Hey everyone, leave jim d alone. He is just an ignorant non-educated person that lives in his small world where the kids are treated like adults and the adults are treated like $hit. As he would say - it is always the teacher’s fault.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

It truly saddens me to see a highly qualified educator resort to 4th grade name calling when they are caught in a lie. (it speaks volumes)

Just me, you have consistently and blatantly lied whenever I have asserted that children do have certain rights, even when I’ve provided links to Supreme Court opinions that defended these rights. I’m willing to settle this discussion here and now if you are. Tell you what I’ll do. I will never again assert that children have any rights whatsoever provided you can prove me wrong. If you can’t then you must agree to STFU and stop lying. All you have to do is —— Prove me wrong.

Provide me just one, that’s right 1, sentence from the Bill of Rights that appoints the rights it guarantees to ONLY ADULTS. Hell, just give me one that infers that these rights do not apply to everyone.

Here, I’ll even copy you with them so you don’t have to go to the trouble of looking them up.

Let me caution you here, If I were you I don’t think I’d contend that children aren’t people or persons. First because you’d be wrong yet again and second because I fear it would destroy any shred of credibility as an educator that you may still have.

I anxiously await your evidence.

HAGD.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution; Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,* the right of the people* to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

jim:

Name the Constitutional basis for bans on child marraige and/ or child sex, child porn, or any such.

Because the basis of those laws is the same basis for justme’s position.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Oh my jeff,

As a constitutional scholar you should know that by ommission they are reserved for the states or the people. Others such as specifically mentioned in the first amendment are guaranteed.

If just me’s contention that children have NO rights were to be remotely valid then one would need to prove that children have no freedom of speech and that my friend can not be done.

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

jim:

There are FEDERAL bans on child porn. There are FEDERAL laws that state one must be 18 to view porn. There are FEDERAL laws that state that one must be 18 to act in porn. (Not sure about federal laws regulating age of consent/ age of marraige - believe those are, in fact, state level. Hence the reason I used porn in my illustration. Still dealing with sex, but I KNOW you have federal laws in this area.)

What is the Constitutional basis for these laws? Again: The basis for these laws and justme’s position are one and the same.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

So jeff,

You then agree that the constitution isn’t worth the paper it is written on. That minor children have absolutely no guarantee’s under this document in spite of decades of supreme court rulings stating they do?

WOW!!! maybe we should just eliminate the courts and set up a hot line called ask Just me and Jeff!

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

jim:

Name the Constitutional basis for the laws I’ve already mentioned. Name the Constitutional basis for child labor laws. Can you?

When the Founding Fathers said “every man”, they meant all white adult males. SOME meant white adult females as well, and others meant all adult males, but no females. The Fathers didn’t even trust the general adult white male to run the country effectively, and you contend that they meant the Bill of Rights for CHILDREN????

By jim d

September 24, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I simply refer you to this site.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Children’sRights#children.27srights:anoverview

Enjoy the read.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

jim d-

If you knew any history (and I do not mean simply quoting the Constitution and/or it’s amendments), then you would know the circumstances under which the Constitution and most of it’s amendments were written.

AT THAT TIME - not even women had any rights. There had to be a special amendment to give women the right to vote.

AT THAT TIME - not even blacks had rights. There had to be special amendment(s) to provide their rights.

AT THAT TIME - not even minor children had rights. Hmmmmm. Has their been an amendment to give them these rights? NO!

And that, my dear jim, it is the prove! Until you can show me some Federal Law or Amendment that affords minors these same rights, they don’t have them. Plain and simple! Otherwise, you need to STFU!!!!

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

jim d- Or, maybe we should provide a hot line for ‘ask jim d.’ Or may be not…. because according to jim d, anything goes. U r a joke on these blogs.

By Jeff

September 24, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

jim:

Two points here:

1) “Child” on this site does not always refer to minors, as we have been discussing, but rather a child of any age, including adult. Therefore not a valid site (and not a very informational one either).

2) You still haven’t given me the Constitutional basis for these laws.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Jim d-

LMFAO! Once again you provide a link to a broken page or to a page with nothing on it.

Simply by posting some link that is invalid does not help support your WRONG position.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

I have finally figured out that jim d is an uneducated boob that has learned to use the internet. He spends his days on these blogs sharing his uneducated opinions and searching on the internet for any site that may remotely support his uninformed position. More often than not the site he links to is invalid, uninformative, or doesn’t support his position at all.

How sad.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Just me—

Have you ever taken the time to read court decisions based on section one of the forteenth amendment?

Which actually only clarifies some of the previous ones. Please note that the drafters of the document in question never once wrote men or white men. They used the terms People and Person. The 14th clears any possible confusion of whether people can be property (including Blacks, Women, and Children) by stating “All Persons”.

And the courts have ruled that children are persons. Brown,

http://www.nationalcenter.org/brown.html

Tinker vs. des moines.

http://www.bc.edu/bcorg/avp/cas/comm/freespeech/tinker.html

And then of course we get into free speech on the internet and schools suspending students.

http://www.electronic-school.com/199903/0399ewire.html

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

thats funny,

the link works for me. you might want to have your school computer unlocked so you can access sites that your employer may not wish you visit.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

Just me,

It is quite unfortunate that your 4th grade name calling on these blogs reflects on many others of your profession.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

http://www.bc.edu/bcorg/avp/cas/comm/freespeech/tinker.html

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

http://www.electronic-school.com/199903/0399ewire.html

By jim d

September 24, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Just me,

Yep, don’t ya just hate this information age, with information at ones finger-tips?

By HB

September 24, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

“AT THAT TIME - not even minor children had rights. Hmmmmm. Has their been an amendment to give them these rights? NO!”

14th amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

No mention of age here. The 14th goes on to limit voting rights to male citizens 21 and over — later amendments gave women and citizens 18 or older the right to vote (and DC residents the right to vote in presidential elections). The lack of the right to vote, however, does not mean that person has no rights. As jim d stated, court cases have protected children’s rights, including freedom of expression. Tinker v. Des Moines, for example, states that public schools must demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. So obviously, children do have certain rights. Just Me, are you seriously trying to assert that children have NO constitutional rights, or have I misunderstood?

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

HB - What I am trying to assert is that children are not treated the same under the law as adults. It was jim d that brought up the Constitution.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

jim d-

I am all for available information.

However, what you do, as an uniformed and uneducated person, is to attempt to twist information to suit your position.

I must say that I am impressed that you can recognize ‘4th grade name calling’ since I highly doubt that you reached that grade at all.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

TEE Hee,

and I’m afraid it demonstrates to all the menatlity you are operating from.

And BTW, you have asserted that children have no rights once they enter your classroom. That is my point of contention. Well that and the fact you continue to lie.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Scuze me,

For the record here in part, from my post, is what started this discussion.

“Generally speaking, the Constitution applies equally to everyone, regardless of age, color, race, religion, or any other factor. Granted some of these rights may be somewhat negated due to what you so astutely point out as “In loco parentis”.”

And your follow up comment.

“Your continued insistence to think that minors (children under-the-age) are adults and are therefore afforded all of the rights and priviges included by the law (to include the Constitution, Amendments, etc.) is plain ‘ol WRONG.”

You may have assumed too much or perhaps just read my post as a 4th grader might have?

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

TEE Hee???? Talk about 4th grade mentality….

I have never, ever, wrote that “children have no rights once they enter your classroom.” I challenege you to find anywhere that I wrote that.

You will be unable to find it because I never wrote it. And THAT brings me to my point about how you TWIST things around to suit YOU!!!!! You twist my words around to suit what YOU want to argue against. How very very sad for you!

Also, I want to point out another one of your logic errors. You CANNOT fault ALL teachers because ONE says something or does something you consider wrong.

By HB

September 24, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Just Me, I just looked back through the posts, and I can’t find where he ever said they are or should be treated the same under the law as adults. He made several statements along the lines of this one: “Keep in mind though that students in public schools are not stripped of their rights completely.” He’s right, and as he has pointed out, courts have upheld the rights of children in many decisions.

Now personally, I don’t agree with everything jim d has said here. I think some of the methods brought up here for dealing with sleepers, such as having a student stand for a few minutes in order to shake off grogginess, are quite reasonable. His opinion, though, does not justify labeling him “uneducated boob that has learned to use the internet.”

And he may have been the one to bring up the Constitution, but you are the one who then said the Constitution does not recognize the rights of minors. As you can see, you are quite simply wrong about that, and that’s not based on information from some random website, but rather from the Constitution itself and decisions of jurists, so perhaps jim d isn’t so ignorant after all. But I guess when you are lacking knowledge, name calling is the easiest way to make your argument. Very sad.

By jim d

September 24, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Why not? you fault all parents on a regular basis here.

By JustMe

September 24, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

HB -

The frustration on my part is when someone like jim d strays from the topic at hand (a la bring in the Constitution) and then uses it and other ‘facts’ (a la links on the internet) to make a point that has nothing to do with anything. That is what I was calling him “twisting” facts to suit his opinion.

Fine. I am guilty for falling into his ploy/trap of bringing in the Constitution. But you must fault him for his incorrect logic regarding the actualy point at hand (students having equal treatment under the law).

I remain steadfast in my assertion that minors are NOT treated the same under the law as adults.

Finally, it was jim d that shared that he never went to college - and is therefore uneducated as such. And, I do describe him as a boob for his continued wrong posts here. And, I do call him uninformed because he, himself, admits to never being in the classroom as a teacher and so he has no informed experience to draw upon. So fine, I’ll just say that he is an uneducated and uninformed poster - feel better?

jim d - Again, you are wrong. I am VERY careful to ALWAYS say SOME parents. I also know SOME parents that are excellent.

By Lee

September 25, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

Justme, there is more than one type of education. Jim D, as I understand it, is a successful businessman, is articulate, and he most often provides data to supplement his opinions on this blog.

Of course, this emphasis on everyone must have a college degree is the root cause on a lot of our problems in school - as we have blogged about often.

Finally, yes, you do continuously blame parents for all the shortcomings in the school system. Hint, you (teachers) have the kids 7-8 hours a day and cannot seem to muster the will to maintain order. The biggest change since the 1960’s is the school systems, not the parents.