Get Schooled

By jim d

September 14, 2007 8:24 AM | Link to this

Depends.

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this

Assuming the teacher is fully prepared (as I was), then textbooks are unncessesary.

HOWEVER, it means that students must actually DO SOMETHING - namely sit down, shut up, and copy the notes.

The problem is that the students don’t believe they should have to do such basic learning tasks as copying notes and studying them, and all too often their parents feel the same way!

By jim d

September 14, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I would think it would depend upon a couple of factors.

1) where reading the text is required as in history or government classes.

2)for students that wish to challenge themselves to all the materials that are skipped over in the name of test prep.

Granted they may not be “necessary” but in the instances above they would certainly add to the quality of education a student recieves.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

Let me also say that as a parent, who has been out of school for well over 40 years, I find the books quite necessary for refreshing my memory so I may assist my child when there are problems with certain concepts. (particulary in some of the advanced math classes)

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

jim:

Anything that would be required reading in a history or government class is more than likely available through www.gapines.org (which about 99% of GA libraries are a member of now) or your local bookstore. I know for a fact that even Albany’s BooksAMillion has a pretty decent selection of histor-related tomes, including a few different renditions of items such as the Federalist Papers and other such documents.

The same applies for your second case: there is FAR more available in the library and/ or bookstore than even the BEST textbook is going to present. For example, I’m currently reading a treatise on the 1912 election pitting Taft (the incumbent Republican) against Roosevelt (Teddy, Taft’s predecessor and IMMENSELY popular figure at the time, who at this point is causing a rift in the Republican party by running as an Independent of the Bull Moose Party after he was snubbed by the Republican Convention and its bosses), Wilson (the Democrat who was the first to attempt to destroy bossism completely, beginning when he was running successfully for NJ Governor 4 yrs prior), and Debs (the Socialist who had started in the labor movement 20 years prior and had started a couple of moderately successful unions, led the 1894 Pullman strike, and eventually went toe to toe with Samuel Gompers, the chairman of what has now become known as the AFL-CIO).

While SOME of this information can be found in textbooks (though most certainly NOT at the HS level), it is an intense read FULL of information that even I - an American History fanatic - had not known. As a matter of fact, prior to reading this book, this is what I had known about the 1912 election: Roosevelt ran on the Bull Moose party. The election showed the face of Roosevelt’s New Nationalism. Wilson won. Debs recieved a million votes. Before reading this book, I couldn’t have really told you what New Nationalism was about (regulating trusts rather than breaking them up, essentially) or that it had a counterpoint in Wilson’s New Freedom (bust trusts to ensure fair competition and enhance consumer freedom).

Name a topic in American History, and I can more than likely go to the local bookstore and find a book dedicated SOLELY to that topic rather than the couple of pages - at a maximum - that a textbook would dedicate to it.

By JEff

September 14, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

jim:

Assuming the teacher is putting the notes on the board in a clear and logical manner (not always easy and not always done, admittedly), then your son should simply copy down EVERYTHYING on the board. (I once heard this from one of my teachers, and I told this to my students over and over: “If it is important enough for me to put on the board, it is important enough for you to put in your notes.”)

If this is executed the way it should be, no books required. You should be able to follow straight through your son’s notes. And that goes for ANY class.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 9:19 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You miss the point this morning. these classes are not designed to go into that much depth at the high school level. AND by requiring students to have to purchase books at a retail outlet you have in essence eliminated the “free” portion of a free and appropriate education, albeit my child does have an extensive personal libray he quite often depends upon for more in depth reading on historical events.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

LOL Jeff,

You have obviously not realized that penmanship is not a major focus of schools these days and I’m not sure I’m up to the task of deciphering my childs notes.

By RW

September 14, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

Books are necessary. Teachers almost never cover all of the material in class, but rely on students reading outside of class. Indeed, in the best classes, having read the text is assumed and lectures or other class activities begin where the text left off. Not having textbooks dumbs down classes.

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

RW:

I haven’t met a HS class yet where having read the text is assumed. College, most definetly. HS, never.

By RW

September 14, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

Jeff:

Reading before class is definitely not the rule (hence my limitation to the best classes), but I know it is assumed in my daughter’s magnet and honors classes. Students there are expected to be prepared to discuss the assigned readings each day, including the summer reading list when school begins in the fall. If this expectation was more widely held, public schools would be able to accomplish much more.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

You should set in on a few AP history classes my friend.

By Adam

September 14, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

…another useless article…

By jim d

September 14, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Had you read Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong

by James W. Loewen

You would have been aware of a truer record of our history. Pick up a copy, it may hold a few more surprises.

By SET

September 14, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

As far as I’m concerned the testbook shortage is not any disaster. It can be managed. For one thing the students can be directed to find their own historical references and cite them in classwork. Books can be shared and old books are not a problem either, history doesn’t really require annual updating except for the PC lies that change with the seasons.

By HS Teacher Too

September 14, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

The bookstore resources might be invabluable to YOU, but have you heard of copyright infringement?

Are you expecting each student to go out a buy a copy of these other books? Jimd hit that nail on the head earlier.

As a math teacher, I agree with Jim that often times it can be parents who rely on the textbooks. (Which I much prefer to, say, Wikipedia!) I had a standing rule that unless I said otherwise, I did not require the book in class — primarily because books are SO heavy these days! We did lots of examples on the board, had short introductory notes, and homework was assigned either from the book, a workbook (kids are given consumable workbooks in Gwinnett), or often times (especially if I knew the lesson itself was going to be short and I wanted the class to really work on attacking the problems in class), a photocopied worksheet. (Another trick of the trade — worksheet homework is more likely to get done than textbook homework, because kids don’t mind taking a worksheet home, but schlepping the textbook is onerous, especially if you have book-work in five classes that night! I told my kids to leave their books at home for that very reason.)

So Bridget, it definitely DOES depend. I had low expectations of how valuable the kids would find the book to be in the classes where I knew they wouldn’t use the book as a resource; but in my AP math classes to go without a book would have been miserable for the kids. Those are the kids that are motivated to look stuff up, to find parallels to other problems and examples, and so forth — and to rob them of a book could (at least in math class) rob them of perhaps the only viable resource they’d have. Before anyone jumps down my throat on that, keep in mind that I am talking about MATH here. Outside resources are often written at levels far above high school heads (or if they are at a decipherable level, they include so much material that kids can’t discern what really applies to their question.) In this regard I would say math is quite different from history, where far more of the books “out there” are fairly readable. Upper-level math texts can be extremely difficult to decipher; especially when they use such terms as “the proof is obvious and left to the reader” — try telling that to a 16-year-old!!

By Tiffinni Vining, Teacher

September 14, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I believe textbooks are not NECESSARY for learning to take place. However, they do supplement along with other materials. Lack of textbooks should remain a concern despite other materials. Textbooks are the foundation on which to build.

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

HST2:

You do have a point, as far as the math books available go. After 5th grade or so, they often become so dense as to REQUIRE a BS or higher to read, unless you count the “_ for dummies” books or similar titles.

And no, I am not saying “copyright infringement”. I am saying that either the teacher can read the information and repackage it to avoid copyright issues (in other words, do a basic report and not plagairize, as we are trained to do) or, if the teacher does not cover something that the student would like to know about, the student can either go buy the book or find it through PINES. (I’m trying to save money right now, so I’ve been looking more towards the libraries recently, and you would be surprised at what is available through PINES. Basically, with PINES you can see if the book is almost literally ANYWHERE in the state library system and user intra-library loans to get it. Also, another feature of PINES is that you can, again, almost literally check out a book ANYWHERE in the state with ONE card - no longer a need to prove you live in that community. Indeed, I got my PINES card through the Randolph Library, though I did not live in that county.)

Books you wouldn’t think of being in a public library: Dale Brown’s Strike Force (just released. Back in my teens in Cartersville, you typically had to wait about a year before our library had it), Brian “Head” Welch’s Save Me From Myself, another book that is extremely esoteric and relates to Wilderness Education Programs, Preston/Child’s “Wheel of Darkness”, Lee Child’s “Bad Luck and Trouble”, etc. (The last two are also extremely recent releases!)

In other words, yes, I AM advocating a return to the use of the public library. They are nowhere NEAR as antiquated as they were even a decade ago in my early teens! (In fact, many are developing more and more of a “bookstore” atmosphere!)

By jim d

September 14, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

AMEN Tif,

By V for Vendetta

September 14, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Ah textbooks, such controversey over something so simple …

I’m on the fence with this, but I think a child needs a textbook more often than he doesn’t. I can’t imagine getting through one of my classes without the book, but then again, I teach English Lit. (Save your grammar comments!) Sure, in some classes the usage of the books could be minimalized, or even mostly eliminated, but in many classes the books would still be vital.

I think jim hit the nail on this one. Depending on the class, the child’s need for the book might, or might not be great. A child is certainly more likely to need the book for History or Language Arts, and maybe less likely to need it for Science and Math. I do see Jeff’s point, but at times I must remind myself that these books are printed for ALL students, and that as much as I would like to go off on some deeper tangents, most of the time it’s just not feasible.

These aren’t college students, not yet anyway, so the book must serve the general (and often times dumb) population. The logistical (and legal) nightmare of requiring students to buy certain books and/or photocopying the pages of others prevents textbooks from being eliminated.

As far as the weight issue of textbooks is concerned, please. Kids today are wimps, and when my students complain about how heavy their bags are I tell them it’s probably the only time of day they get their butts out of a chair anyway, might as well make it count. I tell the athletes that complain they should think of it as training.

We need textbooks, end of story.

By HB

September 14, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

SET, are you saying that history can’t change unless someone is now lying? Because if that is the case, you are completely wrong. I ran into this problem at an historic building where I worked. People who heard different information on two tours several years apart claimed it was changed to be more PC and accused us of “revisionist” history. In fact, there were several valid reasons for the changes. In one case, a past employee of the building with no training in history or research had presented his guesses about what the intent of certain artwork as fact with absolutely nothing to back it up. This was revised later based on evidence in hand. For several other points of the tour, the original research was conducted well, but the picture was still incomplete. The earlier tours carefully stated that historians believed based on vague references in documents that certain design elements probably represented “this” — a resonable conditional statement to make. Later, original papers of the architect himself emerged, stating plainly that they represented “that”, so the history was “revised”, based on evidence.

People have this strange idea that history is what happened, but actually, it is our record of what happened. It can change because additional papers, archeological discoveries, etc. are emerging all the time. Even recent history changes as more is learned about the different players in events (often because of sealed records being opened, deaths leading to letters, papers, etc being released), their different points of view help us to better view the whole picture.

By Parent

September 14, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

Textbooks are needed dependent on the teacher and the course content. In our county, both of my middle school students went without science textbooks for two out of the three years.

In year one it was by design because the teacher was very seasoned and effective in the material she was covering. No harm done, and it was the best science class until they reached high school.

In year two, the students had a textbook, were required to do regular reading and had a cd. We found the cd was not used much at all, to difficult to use for reading, but good for practice tests.

In year three it was a disaster because the teacher did not compensate properly with materials.

All in all, I vote on the side of textbooks. When the concept is not making sense to a student, the good old fashioned way of sitting down, reading and discussing is best done with a textbook as long as it is relevant to the class objectives.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

While we are on the topic of true history—here’s a couple more you may wish to explore.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1419644386

http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Cherished-Myths-World-History/dp/0060922559/ref=sr13/102-4740708-5648960?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189782430&sr=1-3

And then do a search to see if you can locate much of the rich black history we have so conveniently omitted as a nation.

By asudst1992

September 14, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Textbooks are important and needed. It would be a very difficult task to teach literature without a text. How else would you get the students the exposure to the short stories or poems? Downloading and copying? Not practical!

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

jim:

Ah, you brought forth one of the crucial issues when searching through books:

One must decipher the political leanings of the author in order to cut through the BS.

With the first book you mentioned in particular, it is CLEAR that the author has an un-historical bent and is trying to pass his propaganda off as studious history.

I have done enough of my own research into the question of that book to realize that NEITHER side has it historically correct. The Founding Fathers were not as devout as the Religious Right would have us believe, but neither were they as anti-Christian as those on the left would have us believe.

By Old School

September 14, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

In my Engineering Drawing classes textbooks are used as guides and references. Because some have printing setup errors (poorly aligned registration marks causing offset colors in the illustrations) I must constantly remind my students to apply the rules of drafting (ANSI Standards, ISO, SME, etc.) and make certain their drawings are correct by industry standards instead of just copying. Many of my students will check out texts to move on faster or to take more time to understand a technique or skill.

In addition to regular textbooks, we have professional references including Architectural Graphics Standards and Machineries Handbook. While that information is sophisticated and highly technical, my students are accustomed to “looking stuff up” for themselves (because I seldom give them an answer) and are unafraid to use the books the pros use.

There are some students who learn better reading for themselves; some who learn by doing; and some who need an explanation/demostration by the instructor. I try to accomodate all my students as best I can. Our textbooks are well-used…from the basic 7th grade reading level texts to my college level engineering books.

Regardless of how I present the material, the projects my students work on are based on real-world problems. And while textbooks work well in my classroom, I would never issue a blanket statement that textbooks are unnecessary. Every teacher should be able to decide if and how textbooks fit into his/her instructional methods.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I toatally agree—the truth is somewhere in the middle.

That however can only be concluded after researching both sides though.

By JustMe

September 14, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Textbooks are helpful to students that actually open them and read them. However, as many have mentioned, most of today’s students (and parents) do not think that students should do this. They feel that teachers should do all of the work.

In my day as a student, the student did the work and not the teacher. After all, doesn’t the saying go, “the one that does the work is the one that learns?”

Most of today’s students want to sit there, do nothing, rarely even listen, and that’s it. And, they not only expect As for their grades, but they also expect to pass all standardized tests, go on to the best colleges, and become brain surgeons. Gee - I wonder why students expect so much for doing so little? Ya think it came from their home life and their up-bringing (not to mention the MTV stuff)?

By jim d

September 14, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Naw JM,

Mustta been their teachers :-)

By V for Vendetta

September 14, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

JustMe, there is some truth to what you’re saying. Just getting my kids to BRING their books to class is a battle. When I was in school, it was just understood that the books MUST be in hand when you walked in the room.

The sad thing is that parents DEFEND their kids not bringing their books to class. At the end of the day, all of our arguments are moot points, it’s parents at home that shape a child’s attitude towards education.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

V,

I agree in part. As parents we face many of the same challeneges that teachers do. Got any ideas as to how a parent can get them to bring the books home? All kids are going to test the waters, so to speak, I’ve even had to drag mine back to school, in the evening, screaming and kicking, to get a book he’d forgotten. Some of us really do try—regardless of what a few think.

By DB

September 14, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Is this a real question? Of COURSE they need a carefully considered, well-written and comprehensive text book. Otherwise, the child becomes more and more dependent on computer-based material — what happens when there’s a power outtage? Or the computer breaks down? Suddenly the child has no means to learn?

Reading is the first fundamental skill. I think it extremely arrogant of a teacher to imply that their class notes are all a kid needs to know. At that point, you simply transfer the bias of a book to the bias of a teacher.

As far as not bringing their book to class: We always got a demerit if we didn’t show up prepared. My kids get lunch-time detention if they don’t show up prepared — they HATE that, eating lunch in a separate part of the cafeteria in dead silence and having to sit there the entire time in an assigned seat.

I know of many, many families who purchase additional used copies of textbooks off the internet so that the child has a set at home as well as a set at school. Especially good for the heavy literature, history and math books!

My mom’s favorite saying: “I don’t GIVE grades — they are earned, and I simply write them down.” She repeated it often during her 35 years of teaching, and her children and grandchildren are well aware that grades are earned, not awarded.

By V for Vendetta

September 14, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

jim, BRAVO! I completely agree that kids will test the waters, they always do. Mine have already tried that, until I gave them an pop open book quiz. The ones that had their books got A’s, the ones that didn’t failed. Then, on the progress reports, I listed it as OPEN BOOK quiz. That always gets the parents attention, a failing grade on an open book quiz.

But I’m venting to the wrong person. If he had parental support like yours from every kid’s parents, we wouldn’t be complaining about things like this!

By high school teacher

September 14, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

It’s kind of difficult to assign a short story for homework if the kids don’t have the textbook from which to read it.

Jeff, I don’t know which part of Utopic Georgia you live in, but where I teach the majority of the population is on free and reduced lunch, and therefore has no access to computers at home. It’s also hard to get to the library when you are under 16, and your parents don’t get home from work until after the library closes. In short, yes, we need textbooks.

By SET

September 14, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

HB: You have a point about history changing as more evidence is uncovered. My beef with school texts is that in this state if not nationwide, public school history texts are all about revisionist history, propaganda and political correctness.

At this point I wouldn’t trust anything contained in such a text. I don’t believe they even pretend to be historically accurate because the mission statement is bluntly one of appeasement of political pressure groups above all else. The publishers are not the least bit subtle about this.

So I believe it’s not a great loss if these books are under a leaking toilet. I’d prefer the students use open source references in history classes and debate within the class which accounts of history have the better historical and evidentiary support.

By FCm

September 14, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

@ Jeff,

I have one that won’t get their work in on time. They are fully capable of doing the work…often gets As. Last couple of weeks I have seen 1 -2 less than acceptable grades…they knew the answers just didn’t do the work. One qustion was what is the title of this story and why? The child’s response was “[TITLE] and I think its right. Plus it’s at the top of the page.” Both the teacher and I felt they gave this answer because they were insulted or bored by it.

My question is how can we (the teacher and myself) motivate this child to get the work done,correctly, and in on time? Keep in mind this an Elementary student.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Well V,

It hasn’t been easy to stay involved as a parent. With all the rhetoric we hear from the schools we really aren’t wanted. Not from the teachers generally but more so by administrations. They only seem to want our involvement when it comes time to write a check.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

FCM,

taking the “gameboy” Worked for me.

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

FCM:

The short, sweet answer is this:

DISCIPLINE. Bust his tail when it isn’t done, correctly and on time, and the more you do it, the sooner he’ll realize that it is FAR less painful if he does it correctly and on time.

You can be more creative if you’d like, but in programming we try to go with the most direct way to solve a problem…

HST:

I taught in the POOREST county in the state, and I GARAUNTEE you that every child had a computer at home. If he didn’t, his best friend did.

And most libraries these days have at least a day or two where they are open late - usually 8p or so - as well as being open for select hours on weekends. As I am fond of saying: “NO EXCUSES”

By college student

September 14, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

I hope that you all who say reading books to enhance learning is unnecessary will not say the same thing when your kid is flunking college because they “never had to read outside of class in high school” and thus don’t have good study skills. Part of the learning process is talking about a subject then going home to practice it and add to their understanding. How are these kids supposed to add to their understanding if they just memorize what the teacher wrote on the board and that’s the extent to which they “know” a subject? Good job - let’s keep spoon-feeding them; the real world will TOTALLY accept your brat no matter how uneducated they are. Right.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

HST,

I can assure you thats Jeff’s hard a$$ attitude will soften with age.

Something about having kids of your own does that too.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

And a word to the wise for jeff,

If you come across to your bride to be, after you tie the knot, like you come across on this blog. You are doomed! The one thing I’ve learned in 31 years of marriage is that marraige is all about compromise. (MINE)

By Jeff

September 14, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

HST:

Georgia Public Library Service site has links to almost every library in the state. In my cursory examination of areas I know to be fairly rural, I could not find a SINGLE county that did not have extended or weekend hours at either a library within that county or a neighboring county.

I could still be wrong on this, but it is looking more and more like I am correct in saying it is simple parental laziness if a kid cannot get to the library.

By HB

September 14, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Interesting what people are saying about kids showing up without their books. When I was in high school, we were usually encouraged to NOT bring them. They were used primarily for reference and homework. Old falling apart books that still had all their pages and most of their words but would likely disintegrate after a day or two in a backpack, became part of a classroom set the teacher would pull out occasionally to be used during class.

By high school teacher

September 14, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

I taught in the POOREST county in the state, and I GARAUNTEE you that every child had a computer at home. If he didn’t, his best friend did.

You never cease to amaze me. You GUARANTEE that every child had a computer at home? You went into every house of every student in your school to verify this information? Well, come take a ride with OUR social worker when she visits the kids whose parents don’t have electricity because they can’t afford to pay the light bill. Or go into the trailer of the kid who told me last February that he couldn’t sleep the night before because it was too cold - they couldn’t afford the heat so they slept in one room together - but the temperature was still only 40 degrees in that room. The Internet is useless when the phone line has been disconnected. But I guess for the kids in YOUR classroom those are merely excuses.

So you must have taught in Hancock County, which is the poorest county in Georgia, according to the Georgia Department of Community Affairs.

By BUSHWACKER

September 14, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Great example of why illegal immigration is a problem.

The illegals don’t want to “register” with the govt LIKE ALL AMERICANS HAVE TO DO” because they think once we know who’s here we will kick them out.

NOT TRUE unless you are a criminal.

We need to know who you are and how many so we know how me books we need. How many lunches need to be cooked. How many nurses a school has. How many teachers a school needs.

These are things we cannot plan and budget for if we do not know how many are here.

That is only the problem it causes with schools.

What policemen, firemen, doctors, hospitals, and on and on.

Why do you think we do the census every 10 years.

It oes not suprise me we do not have enough books, does it suprise you???

By BUSHWACKER

September 14, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Jeff, if the schools don’t have enough books for everyone what makes you think the libraries which there are less off will have enough books?

By BUSHWACKER

September 14, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

jim d, how do you decide who’s telling the truth?

By Janine

September 14, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

high school teacher….my teaching experience was very similar to yours…“kids whose parents don’t have electricity … they couldn’t afford the heat so they slept in one room together…etc. In addition, many of the middle and high school students had to take care of their younger siblings long into the night when their parent came home. My students needed their text books to do my routine assignments of reading a portion of a play, a myth, or a short story before the discussion the following day. My granddaughters who are in private school use their textbooks almost every night…as someone above has said…to practice math that had been done in class that day, to re-read poems or plays…and the text is a springboard to more research that is often required.

By navy10767

September 14, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Property taxes fund schools therefore pay for text books.

If the person responsible for ordering the books on time failed in their duties, why are they still employed?

This happened last year at my child’s school. A new school in district was built and 1/2 of my child’s school science books went there and then there were not enough to go around. Her school administrators acquired the book on a CD-ROM and sent those home.

By jim d

September 14, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

Bushwacked,

Truth about what?

When married the simple truth is “she’s right—I’m wrong”

remember two things 1) they have half the worlds money and 2)they have all the worlds—- well you get the idea.

By high school teacher

September 14, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

jimd, I may not agree with you on all angles, but you are a wise man! :)

By SET

September 14, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

Jeff: I think you made a comment about public libraries as a solution.

In CA the municipalities are collapsing under the weight of the invasion of CA by Mexico (at the invitation of Bush and Congress). All public services have degraded to the point where they do not exist as we remember them in the 1960s. Not only are the schools running out of supplies and unclean, but the hospitals and libraries and other public agencies are distressed.

Our public libraries are often hangouts for the mentally ill, drug addicts and parolees (and their children). They like the fact that they can get out of the weather and sleep, catch up on their Email or otherwise entertain themselves. Some of these people in addition to making strange noises are very malodorous.

The librarians have been told not to confront or disturb them, that they have “a right” to hang out at the library as long as they want. You really should see what the San Francisco Public library is like. Plus you have to step over sleeping/camping homeless to walk down the street.

Needless to say the day is over when parents drop their children at the library. A decent parent won’t let their kid hang out there without direct supervision of Mommy/Bio Dad. Both parents have to work in this Brave New World. So library time for the kids is not what it once might have been.

In my day we could take the bus (before we got cars at 16) to the library and spend most of Saturday there and at the stores and shops in Downtown Oakland CA. Now the place is a war zone and you would never want your unescorted young kids on the public buses in that city.

Of course, conditions in GA are probably much better than CA for the time being.

By SET

September 14, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

A PS to the above. UC Berkeley had fantastic libraries, nicer than the municipal ones. Due to the homeless who live in the bushes on the campus and shoot heroin, etc on the grounds, the University libraries are strictly closed to the public. Even Alumni have to jump through hoops to be allowed access. No Current Stdent ID, No Admission.

As a high schooler I used to occasionally go to their libraries when I needed to do special research for a school assignment. HS Students can’t go anymore. The door is nailed shut - it’s the only way to keep the premises safe.

By JustMe

September 14, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

jim d- Are you honestly asking for help in parenting? If you are really sincere, here are some suggestions…

The scenerio you mentioned is that it is hard for you, the parent, to get your child to bring home their textbooks. Is that a correct assessment of the problem? If so, try these:

The thing that is irratating as heck to me is the parent that does nothing. Or, sometimes even worse, the parent that tells the kid it’s okay or just gives them a ‘talking to’ and then lets the kid watch TV that night (or play video games) (or go play with their friends) (or do some other fun activity). That’ll teach’em good!