Get Schooled

By DB

September 7, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Bridget, are the vouchers supposed to be need-related? Or are they a relatively inexpensive way to ease kids who eat up an above-average amount of resources out of the public system? (And, by easing them out, perhaps also improving scores?)

Cynic that I am …

As a private school family, naturally I would have loved a voucher that reimbursed me in some small way for the taxes that I pay towards schools that I do not use directlly. I took my kids out of the system, they aren’t contributing to the obscene overcrowding in the schools in our area — the minimal amount the voucher might have provided would have been very welcome.

Just because someone commits to spending a chunk of money on private education, doesn’t mean it’s easy for them. In many cases, it’s a question of family priorities. I don’t see why a family who had already committed to a private school should be penalized because they had the foresight to see the writing on the wall for their child in a public setting.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 7, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

DB: You’re right. The formula for distribution is not need-based. But, if memory serves, the program was sold as helping families who could not afford private school otherwise.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

Really? Here I thought the program was sold as helping the students get an education, not as helping the family.

MY BAD

By Chris

September 7, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

My son is now enrolled in a private school with the scholarship. His scholarship amount does not cover the full cost of tuition and fees and we are paying the difference.

Because of the timing of the legislation and scholarship application process this year, we did start early with applying to private schools. We just decided that we would eat the application fees if the legislation didn’t pass because we were worried that we might not get in at all. Most of the private schools we looked at start taking applications in the spring, well before school gets out and the Governor did not sign the legislation until late May if I remember correctly.

I’m not sure if Bridget has a valid point about kids being enrolled early. There’s a difference between accepted and enrolled. Bridget, did you really mean enrolled? School didn’t start here until mid-August and students have to be enrolled before September 10.

By Elaine

September 7, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Generally speaking, I am not necessarily a whole-hearted voucher fan, but I think this may be a really good idea for a few reasons:

I think it’s worth a try…

I don’t think the argument that they “already resolved to pay on their own” argument. So it’s a good idea for someone who isn’t proactive about his/her child’s education, but isn’t a good idea for someone who is? Just because someone’s got a kid in private school doesn’t mean he/she is “rich.” And besides, this isn’t a financial needs-based initiative, it’s student-needs-based initiative. And it should be.

By mmm

September 7, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Bridget—-If you are doing a story, you should call Lynn d. She knows folks and could give some good perspective.

I talked to the head of one of the small private schools that got on the list to take the vouchers and she was very ambivalent about them. The school is extremely small—and she got a ton of applications for special needs children who she really couldn’t serve and she asked the state if she had to take them. They said no—-so what she wound up with were 5 low income gifted kids that also had an EIP.

By Pompano

September 7, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Let’s go easy on Bridget, she has obviously been tasked by the AJC to try and come up with another negative slant on vouchers. Her Democrat supporting employer does not like this program - nor any program that entails personal accountability - and has tasked their minions to attempt to discredit the initiative. You will never see a positive story about the new voucher program published by the AJC. In Bridgett’s case, she is even willing to re-write history to falsely present the voucher program as one based on financial need. It’s pretty much the only way she can slant extending relief to families who are tasked with providing an education to a special needs child as evil.

By TJ

September 7, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Elaine I think many normal children leave public education as you say “wounded”. Why is it the special needs children are the only ones considered for these vouchers? Sorry but this doesn’t fly with me. Many families with normal children would welcome the chance for their children to be singled out for special treatment. They have to be overlooked because they were born normal?

Time has turned me into a cynical realist. Honestly it seems to me to be just another handout.

By SET

September 7, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

DB: Your point of paying taxes for schools you don’t use struck a bell with me. You also likely pay taxes on a County Hospital you don’t use either. The taxpayers in Los Angeles who paid money to keep “Killer King” open are the same.

The whole point is you pay to keep them open and not go there. By providing a place where the proletariat go to receive inferior service, you keep the proletariat away from the schools and hospitals where you do go. So perhaps the money is well spent. Or at least you are getting service from those taxes.

One of the strongest arguements in Los Angeles to keeping Killer King in business is that when it’s closed, undesirable patients will wind up in hospitals now used mainly by the higher classes. (apparently the Board of Supervisors is going to close it and it has already lost it’s accreditation or is operating under limited accreditation - not sure)

Voucher systems are an attempt by the government to muscle into the operation of the private schools. So I oppose all such schemes. I consider money spent on public schools and public hospitals money well spent and I just want to get the best return out of them.

My own county hospital is actually the regional trauma center and that’s where you had better go if it’s serious. So far it’s hemorraging money and most of the children born there are anchor babies to illegal aliens. Planned deliveries to mothers with health insurance go to the Catholic Hospitals, etc. I understand that the hospital is important even when I’m not using it.

My point is that your taxes pay for a lot of things you don’t personally want - Vietnam wasn’t run to the satisfaction of the masses. That’s life. You don’t get refunds on these things.

By mmm

September 7, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

TJ I really feel for your cynical realist position. I’m with you there, but it has been a long journey.

The reason it was special needs kids first was because they are the easiest case to make. i.e. emotional, highly organized advocate parents angry at what they are given. Teachers and school systems not unhappy to get rid of the difficult to teach children and their unhappy loud parents, and an amount of money that is only what the state gives (so the local tax monies stay and can be divided between the other easier kids.)

It amounts to a win for all the interests at the bargaining table (except that we will learn latter if these kids are just being wherehoused as they were 30 years ago).

Gifted kids will be next (their parents are the next most savy chunk). And then we will have general vouchers for all. The real question is whether the schools created to serve voucher kids at the voucher rate will actually provide better education.

By teacher

September 7, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Yep, I agree, gifted is next. Public school staff dislikes them and their parents nearly as much as the special ed kids, and they will be thrilled to get rid of them too.

By Janine

September 7, 2007 6:47 PM | Link to this

mmm… When you said in your post @2:33 :“she asked the state if she had to take them. They said no—-so what she wound up with were 5 low income gifted kids that also had an EIP” I am wondering… Is sh going to receive voucher money for these gifted students….doesn’t the Special Needs category include gifted students, and if so,are they already eligible for vouchers in GA.?Or are these Ga vouchers just for students considered to be and labeled disabled in some way?

By thomas

September 7, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

Teacher,

You are quite wrong on the public schools hating the gifted. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The public schools LOVE the gifted, HATE special education, and are ambivalent about ESOL.

Everybody likes gifted kids because they are supposedly “smart” and supposedly easier to teach (at least the regular curriculum). The SPED and ESOL students pose challenges to schools and school systems, not to mention cause regular AYP worries.

By HS Teacher Too

September 7, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

Bridget, I realize it is late so you may be gone, but if you can reply to this Monday, I’d appreciate it.

Is the point of the voucher system to send kids with special needs to private schools because the schools are better able to meet those needs? For example, if I have a child with a fairly typical IEP and fairly standard accomodations, is that child eligible for a voucher for a private school? Are the private schools in any way chosen so that they are, in fact, better equipped to serve these children?

If the answer to those questions is “no,” then I oppose these vouchers on every level, because all they are is a way for parents to have the gov’t foot (at least part of) the bill for private school. If the answer to the questions is yes, however, I am concerned because then it seems that to provide a — what is the language, free and appropriate? — education and to only pay for part of it seems contrary to the law.

So if you can provide any clarity on the purpose and “qualifying” aspects of the program, that would be wonderful.

Thanks.

By HS Teacher Too

September 7, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

Thomas,

I beg to differ. Anybody who HAS TAUGHT gifted kids will agree that they are almost without question the most challenging bunch to teach. What is often confused with that is the fact that there are very few DISCIPLINE problems within that group,and people tend to think “no discipline, easy bunch.” If you hear anyone say that, run!!! Because as a whole, gifted kids are an incredible (albeit incredibly rewarding) challenge, and anyone who says otherwise is failing the kids.

While we are on the subject of gifted kids, their parents can be downright terrible to work with, to boot — but I can’t say they are any worse than, say, 9th-grade parents. both sets of parents are typically overzealous and convinced that their child is perfect. Hey, in the grand scheme of things, there’s nothing wrong with being an advocate for your child! Eventually these parents either learn their child for who s/he is; learn to back off their child and/or child’s teacher; or drive we teachers to drink. :)

By jim d

September 10, 2007 8:15 AM | Link to this

HS II,

From another perspective it needs to be said that parents of gifted students often have the same expectations of the schools that we have of our children.

What I see as an underlying problem with the gifted programs at the elementary level is that they are not really challenging. More of someplace to stick the kids so they can say they “are doing something.”(and collect their check)

That something is often nothing more than a bit of “enlightenment” or an extra field trip or two during the school year.

I would hope that if the state can’t or won’t provide for these kids in a meaningful way that they would offer these students an opportunity to explore other institutions of learning that are capable of providing an “appropriate education” at a level aimed more at the students abilities.

Now go ahead and “Have a Scotch”

By HS Teacher Too

September 10, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

jimd— No need to crack the bottle before noon … I appreciate your perspective and just remember that my experience is from the high school level. I can only speak about the Elementary and Middle Schools based on what I observe with my neighbors and friends, which isn’t enough to qualify me to talk about it.

But, given your comments about the elementary schools’ efforts not being meaningful, that makes sense to me — because I see the kids at the high school level and the idea of being challenged is alien to them (often, not always). They are used to easy A’s and the idea of being challenged and earning that A — or possibly getting a lower grade — causes all sorts of emotional upheaval. Maybe if they had a healthier, appropriate dose of challenge at the lower levels this would be lessened? (This brings to mind a side issue of weighting grades; well-covered territory in this blog.)

By lynn d

September 10, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

I am one of the parents whose special needs child was headed to private school with or without the voucher. We applied early, got accepted in April, and sent our deposit in within two weeks — all before SB 10 had passed. Many of the families that I know who are using it are the same as us.

Originally, the school we choose for our child had said they weren’t going to accept the vouchers. Fine by us, the school was the right choice. Something changed, I have no idea what, and to my pleasant surprise the school was on the list.

My son has very mild special needs, but his needs would not have been well meant in a large middle school setting. His voucher is amount is the lowest a child can receive. It helps, but truthfully hardly makes a difference.

We are fortunate that we could afford the school without the voucher — the voucher is just a little bonus.

By lynn d

September 10, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

I want to talk about vouchers in general.

Many of the families who advocated for SB 10 found not only that the voucher amounts were for far less than they expected, they also found that most schools couldn’t accomodate children with severe or even moderate disabilities and that many of the school’s tuition was significantly higher than the voucher amount

The reality is though, Jim and others, that most private schools don’t challenge the very best and the brightest any better than public schools. Schools like Westminster and Pace very well might, but their tuition for high school is about twice what Gwinnett spends per student and that doesn’t include transportation (parent provided or paid for at private schools), uniform fees (my child’s uniforms will cost at least $500 this year), books (in many cases private schools charge for these) and mandatory donations to capital funds, annual funds etc.

The more generic private schools often offer nothing more than a more homogeneous environment, often with religion thrown in for good measure. Many students at some of Gwinnett’s private high schools return to public school to have access to more AP courses.

By JustMe

September 10, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

lynn d-

Are you aware of any requirements made by the State on that school in order for them to now accept the voucher? Government money always has strings attached….

Also, how well did you investigate your local school to serve your son with mild special needs? You state that the school would not have meet his needs, but I was wondering how you knew that - or was it just your impression?

By lynn d

September 10, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

Very few requirements on the school — pre and post testing the voucher students with a assessment method of the schools choice and reporting the voucher students to the state, those are the main requiremetns.

My oldest son went to the middle school, my youngest child will probably go as well. This child is very unique. He is brilliant but has a mild langauge based learning disability. He copes very well and consistently scores in the 90th percentile or higher on nationally normed tests. However, he needs small class size, teachers with consistently good communication skills, a tremendous amount of structure (so that he can understand the expectations) and targetted instruction in his areas of weakness without being pulled out or singled out.

At his new school, the teachers have about 1/2 the number of students in a day as they do at our middle school. Additionaly, he has no more than 14 kids in his class.

We have been very public school oriented — and remain committed, but believe that no school meets the needs of every child. (His youngest sister would suffocate at his new school.)