Get Schooled

By JustMe

September 6, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

IMHO, if we have an exit exam for high school, then we should also have an exit exam for elementary school and for middle school.

Why should the State of GA wait until the students senior year in high school to find out that the ‘student’ is not worthy of a diploma? Should this be caught as early as possible?

Yeah, yeah. There is the CRCT and the EOCT in GA. But, these do not mandate that the ‘student’ is prevented from moving on to the next school (elementary, middle, and high). I would rather get rid of the CRCT and EOCT all together in favor of an exit exam for elementary school and an exit exam for middle school.

By Janine

September 6, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Justme’s point is well taken. We absolutely need end of course tests and exit exams long before high school.

I have read that the great majority of high school drop outs do so after the shock of ninth grade. And it’s no wonder…..anyone with any exposure to the system could figure out why. In Elementary and Middle schools, the kids are always passed even if they fail every class and every CRCt given. When they arrive in high school, even though grades are seriously inflated, when they fail a class they must repeat it or take and pass something to replace it. WHAT A SHOCK!!…The students often do not have the background/basics to be able to do that BECAUSE they were not made to do it earlier. It’s impossible to pass Algebra if one has not understood and passed 5th, 6th , or 7th grade math. If a student has not mastered writing a complete sentence in Standard American English before reaching high school, it’s going to be almost impossible to do well in high school. Once when we [middle school teachers] confronted the Dekalb educrats about not holding back and remediating students who are failing, their answer was …well…THAT WILL HAPPEN IN NINTH GRADE. THey will have to pass then.

By V for Vendetta

September 6, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Maybe if they started requiring the students to actually do “college prep” level work, this wouldn’t be necessary. But that’s just crazy talk!

At my school it goes like this (forgive me for being callous)

Tech: Doesn’t exist anymore. Surely there are no technical students in my county!

College Prep: Mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, morons. Most should be in tech.

Honors: Not much better, only slightly more responsible.

Gifted: The kids that will actually succeed in college, and are treated accordingly.

And, again, I teach at one of the GOOD schools!

By kiley

September 6, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

I believe that these testes should be given in primary and middle school as well. I graduated from A georgia university and I also had to take a test my senior year to determine if I could graduate. If was called College Graduation Test and was complided of questions based on certain major classes that I took. If I didn’t pass than I didn’t graduated yet I was a straight A student in all my major classes. I took the class and passed with an A why should I have to take one last test to see if I can graduate? Shouldn’t the A in the class be enough? I guess not. But I’m glad to have recieved such a great education from a Georgia University

By jim d

September 6, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Geeze folks,

the kid took the Ga. Graduation test nearly two years ago. His comment?———“Fourth grade questions.”

How hard can it be to graduate in ga?

By Alan Richard, SREB

September 6, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

I’d suggest AJC readers examine another recent report on trends in state high school exams. Georgia and other states are moving toward end-of-course exams, which we think can do a better job of checking what students know and can more easily incorporate questions to measure students’ college-readiness before they finish high school—offering schools time to help students brush up on their skills. The link to the Atlanta-based Southern Regional Education Board report on high school exams is: http://www.sreb.org/main/Goals/Publications/ChangingRolesStatewideExams.asp

By jim d

September 6, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Kiley,

Did that great Georgia education not teach that testes is plural form of TESTIS?

By SET

September 6, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

I agree with the above posters that end of term tests should be given in grade school and those that fail should be removed from their cohort. Hopefully the failures can retest after summer school and some of them be allowed to re-join their cohort, chastened by the experience.

As for those who completely fail 4th grade, or 6th grade, what do we do with them? I don’t want them put with normal kids in the higher grade because that hurts both groups. I don’t want them put with normal 5th graders is they are 13 or 14 because they are not fit company for the 11 year olds.

So I’d support a system of alternative schools to do whatever can be done for them until they age out and are dumped into the cruel world. I have no doubt that the results would be far better for all than the current system.

Understand that this means IQ segregation and largely racial segregation. We would be re-creating a system that worked up to the 1960s. We would also be putting to death the notion that all people are created equal. The distribution within the various racial groups into these different schools would quickly mirror the IQ stats commony found in “The Bell Curve” and related studies. And everyone would be happier because like could be with like - intellectually.

In the Book “Brave New World” there was a mention of a government experiment where “Alphas” and “Betas” were forced to take on each other’s roles. All of them became extremely unhappy and the Betas especially did not like being expected to act as an Alpha - they disliked Alpha values and wanted to be left alone. It was decided that once a person was tested and found to be an Alpha or a Beta mind, it was best to assign and train them accordingly and not to rock the boat by making unreasonable demands…

Brave New World…

By SET

September 6, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

PS: The military has used such a system for years. It underminds unit cohesion if people are placed in assignments that are above or below the optimal band of IQ.

By Bridget Gutierrez

September 6, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the link, Alan.

It’s my understanding that the EOCT was initially slated to replace the GHSGT. But, because not all students will take those end-of-course exams, they couldn’t be used for AYP. That’s when the state BOE decided make the EOCT part of a course grade instead.

If Dana’s lurking, maybe he can speak to the future of the EOCT and GHSGT.

By Tony

September 6, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

While we’re making new plans for testing, why don’t we also add an exemption tests for students to skip stuff they already know. This would especially make sense for gifted and upper ability students. We are wasting precious time by requiring “seat time” in order to get credit for required courses.

Time Magazine featured an article last week highlighting the trickle-down effect NCLB is having on bright children. So much focus on minimum standards is destroying our children’s opportunities.

By jim d

September 6, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

SEt,

your continued arguments citing the Bell Curve are really getting old.

Bad Science Makes for Bad Conclusions

http://goinside.com/98/3/postmod.html

By HS Teacher Too

September 6, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

V, As usual you are dead-on. Today it’s in your descriptions of the kids in your classes. I couldn’t agree more about the gross mis-placement. It will make a bad system worse, and the educrats will surely miss the cause and effect that is so obvious to anyone in the classroom.

As to the exit exams, they are stupid and counter-intuitive. The math exam is ridiculously easy (among other questions, that you measure temperature with a thermometer); the science exam covers too much material in a strictly fact-recall basis. I don’t know much about the other tests but have heard they are equally awful. The point is that tests as a whole are inconsistent and unfair.

On a policy level, and my real argument against exit exams, is that if we are saying that the kids passed their classes, but we force them to take an exit exam, we are effectively saying that we don’t value the grades they earned in the actual courses. Which begs the question, why do we care about the courses, then? Why not just set up kiosks at the malls where students can show up, check in, and take whichever HSGT they choose? Demonstrate general knowledge (on a sliding cryptic scale, I might add) and that’s all you need. Coursework is meaningless and trivial.

I know, the argument that an A here is not the same as an A there. I’m not buying it, though. That kind of information shakes out in REAL standardized tests, like the SAT and ACT; and kids who don’t take those exams clearly don’t need to take them (for whatever reason), so whatever education they have received in terms of their coursework is at least immediately sufficient for whatever it is they are pursuing. Likewise, ASVAB will (theoretically) appropriately place military personnel in their respective job levels.

MY vote is to create/re-create/keep two or levels of diplomas. College Prep (or higher) and technical (or lower). College prep courses, with some exceptions, should have FAIR, CONSISTENT, UNBIASED end-of-course tests. Pass enough of them, along with passing the courses in general, and you’ve earned your CP diploma. Choose not to take those classes, and you earn a technical diploma. No exit exam required; your diploma level speaks for itself.

Simple, makes sense, and tests the material as students encounter it.

So, obviously, it will never happen.

By V for Vendetta

September 6, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

LOL Jim … testes …

Anyway, it won’t matter one bit whether or not tests are implemented. A few parent complaints and that kid will be right on to the next level (shades of the CRCT). I like SET’s idea, test them early and weed out the under-performing students. Very European. Sure some will cry foul, but overall, I think it could lead to a more steamlined educations system.

Complete with FREE CHOICE!? Dare I think it? How much is the dollar worth against the Euro? Damn!

By DwayneL

September 6, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

The teachers need to stop passing kids that fail and quit worrying about their “feelings” or “self-esteem”. These idiots are making their way through the school system due to the insane political correctness that has invaded our society. This is going to catch up to them either in high school or later in the real world when they can’t read, write or do math and can’t obtain or keep a job.

By SET

September 6, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

Over Labor Day I had a discussion with teacher relatives about these issues. They believe that IQ is not fixed and the scores or numbers reflect the amount of “education” one has recieved. Therefore failing students have merely not been taught enough. Their answer to the problem of academically non-functional students is “more education”.

These elderly people are “Education” majors in college and they have never read “The Bell Curve” or any books in that line. I consider them uneducated because of their non education or experience with lab sciences, business & economics, anthropology, statistics, history or running a for-profit business, etc. Their 4 year degrees are from HBC colleges 50 years ago or more.

I ask them to what do they attribute the performance of grade school students now and in 1960 - they say “Poverty”. That’s also their answer to why we have people being mugged and shot at in front of the chain drugstores in the best part of town. “Poverty”.

I haven’t asked them why they think Michael Vick got in trouble…

By HS Teacher Too

September 6, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Tony,

I can appreciate your perspective, but I suggest that the kids who are “wasting time” because they already know the material ought to be better placed in a class that is more challenging and provides more appropriate content. I think in terms of humanities it is harder to say that kids already know the material — dig deeper and explore more content. For example, exploring issues in history or literature, etc. For math, however, I agree that students can place out of and I would support testing kids into higher levels if the tests themselves were appropriately rigorous and not just the garbage tests we typically see.

But in all cases, my point is that we ought to put the kids in classes that are appropriate matches to the kids’ abilities and knowledge levels.

By Dana @ DOE

September 6, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

I don’t lurk, Bridget. I loom…much different.

You’re right that the original plan was for the EOCT to replace the GHGST. But participation in EOCT classes was an issue so U.S. Ed demanded a change. So, GaDOE created the Enhanced GHGST (which is what you reference about why there are two cut scores).

There’s nothing on the table right now to change that, but that discussion could happen in the near future.

Okay, I’m done looming.

By SET

September 6, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Please write contrary points - I’d like to see more. See, the nature of a blog is for the counterpoints to be openly debated. Of course you don’t like my view. Good.

That’s the whole point of a blog. Please post your explanations of the weaknesses in those points and see if your posts hold any water in public discourse. Here’s your chance to help people chose sides - and mine.

And you can help us understand how all these problems experienced by the products of the public schools are unrelated to the issues advanced in “The Bell Curve”, or “Losing Ground” (also by Chas Murray), or Losing the Race, or any of Thomas Sowell’s books (Ethnic America is one of my favorites) or D. DeSouza, etc.

I don’t think you can.

By JustMe

September 6, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta -

You said, “Anyway, it won’t matter one bit whether or not tests are implemented. A few parent complaints and that kid will be right on to the next level (shades of the CRCT)”

That is not true for the HS graduation test. A parent can complain all day long, but if the State reports that student’s score as not passing, the kid won’t graduate, period.

The same could be done for the hypothetical exit exam for elementary school and for middle school. It must have the support of the school, the school district, and the State - with appropriate backing of State law. Then, regardless of any individual parents threats or whatever, it won’t matter.

Also, I am perfectly fine with letting a younger student take the exit exam early to move ahead. There are social development arguments against it, but I personally don’t care.

The point is, we (everyone) cannot continue to accept passing kids from grade to grade when the kid knows nothing. Then in high school, they hit a brick wall and drop out all together - partly because they cannot pass the HS graduation test.

By SET

September 6, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta: It’s not so much that we test to weed people out. I have no position that duller people are bad or good. They may make fine musicians, bakers, or city league football players. They just don’t belong in an academic program because that will hurt them and perhaps tend to make them more angry and destructive. A good alternative school could make them happy, self sufficient, and wealthier.

And if they are to work with their hands they need to get to work early. Academics have prolonged training and adolescence. Trades need to start their careers at puberty.

By who cares

September 6, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

maybe if these kids just STUDY instead of goofing off playing basketball or soemthing non productive, they might actually pass a test that would prepare them for life instead of a sport where thousands of others compete for two spots on 29 teams!

By jim d

September 6, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

SET,

The bell curve, in my opinon which is based on evidence or the lack of, is a mere theory with no Scientific support.

If in fact any does exist, please tell me where to find it. I don’t think you can do that.

By posterchild

September 6, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

DwayneL:

I have tried to fail kids before, armed with failing work, parental contact logs, etc., but have been told by administrators that I have to give them a D.

Let’s hear it for backbone!

By Wow!

September 6, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

gee Jim, you got BALLS to put that in writing!hahahaha

By V for Vendetta

September 6, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

SET - well said. I don’t begrudge those people anything at all, but the academic pursuits should be left to the academics.

jim d - I see the bell curve every single day in my class. On any given assignment, I could select from a relatively small number of A’s and F’s, and a very large number of C’s. Depending on the school, the grades could skew in either direction. At my school, the classes might skew a little higher; however, at a school in Clayton county, the class averaged might skew a little lower. Even in an all-gifted class, you get some measure of a bell curve. If you don’t, you’re not asking the right questions.

Simple evolutionary fact: In many ways LIFE is the ultimate bell curve. Shame the schools can’t seem to figure that one out.

By Alexis

September 6, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Public education in this country is a joke and in this state a travesty. Children should be privately educated if parents can afford it, and if parents can’t afford it — well we can always use people to staff the local McDonald’s and take tickets at the movie theatre and what not.

By mmm

September 6, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

I thought D’s didn’t exist any more in GA?

I do think there should be wiggle room.

Our charter school had a family newly arrived from Afganistan with no English and no prior school time two years ago. The kids were hard working and very bright. The third grader passed the 3rd grade CRCT test after only 7 months in our Charter School. The 5th grader passed the Math portions but missed the English/Language Arts test by 4 points. This was a kid whose was the pride of his family and whose stated ambition is to be a doctor. He was crushed and crying, with no sense of the huge task he did accomplish to pass the math and come so close in a foreign language in one year.

So do you think this child should have been retained?

By erica

September 6, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

mmm - He was esol…. doesn’t he have a year or two to learn English before his scores “count”? If his scores don’t count under AYP b/c he doesn’t know English - then don’t hold him back. By 5th grade, his scores “count” - if he fails then - he gets held back.

That’s an easy one.

By jim d

September 6, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

V,

You see what you want to see.

The entire argument in The Bell Curve rests upon assumptions about IQ.

HM asserts

(1) that human intelligence is a trait that can be measured by IQ tests and expressed in a number called IQ;

(2) that inequalities of social class and race are mainly caused by genetic, inherited differences in IQ; and

(3) that it really doesn’t matter whether differences in IQ are inherited and genetic or environmental and cultural, because nothing can be done to raise the low IQ’s of children born to low IQ parents.

As Black political scientist Adolph Reed stated in his fine review of The Bell Curve in The Nation (11/28/94) these assumptions are “preposterous and loony” and based upon “class prejudice and racism.”

The IQ Mythology: Class, Race, Gender, and Inequality, by Elaine and Harry Mensh is one of many fine scholarly books that demolishes the arguments HM make about IQ in The Bell Curve.

Leon Kamin in The Science and Politics of IQ and Stephen Jay Gould in The Mismeasure of Man have demonstrated that IQ tests have historically been used as a weapon of racism and class domination.

Scientists Richard Lewontin, Ruth Hubbard, and Howard Taylor have conclusively demonstrated that there is no scientific basis for any claims of a genetic, hereditary component of variations in “intelligence.”

So you believe it does exist? Give me some proof other than “I see it every day”, because I don’t.

By jim d

September 6, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

V,

For the sake of argument, let’s say the bell curve theory is correct. Accordingly only smart people would have smart children, Right?

How do you explain my wife and I having one with an IQ over 135?

By jim d

September 6, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

BTW V,

Don’t tell me to go home and smack the wife. He’s a handsome duplicate of me at his age.

By SET

September 6, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Comrade, I’m enjoying your posts on IQ. Keep posting them. You make the argument for me.

As as to your use of the word “assumptions” - I’d substitute “hypothesis drawn from nearly 100 years of datasets”

TBC and related studies are scholarly discussions of what inferences can be drawn from research. Those who look at the datasets can see them from diffeent points of view but in the end they have to relate the data to their theories and allow for the existance or non-existance of other plausible theories. For example, can nutrition or diet explain the numbers present? (no, it can’t.)

Your commentary so far doesn’t do more than indicate that because you don’t want a certain hypothesis to emerge, it can’t be true. I went through that stage a long time ago with OJ Simpson. It lasted a day or two.

In time when you get older and have to live with reality, you get to be more realistic in trying out possible explanations for the elephant in the room.

As far as your kid, I don’t take the bait. I won’t give you the obvious possibilities, including the obvious one from the book. I don’t deal here with individuals only with groups.

And Racism means nothing in this context. The attempt to discuss it in this area demeans your case. See T. Sowell’s “Ethnic America” historical economic history of Ethnics in the USA. Racism never stopped the economic progress of any ethnic group across world history, least of all in the USA.

TBC issues are crucial to US Public Schooling in order to decide how to obtain the best results for the students as a whole - ie.. the highest number gainfully employed post HS, and the least unemployed, dead or institutionialized.

Since the 1960’s the US has destroyed Public Schooling and with it whole cities (Detroit, anyone?) with the silly notion that all humans are physically born equal and should be in the same campus and classrooms and treated the same.

So we have a race to the lowest common denominator in our public schools.

TBC offers explanation of what we always knew anyway, what we hoped wasn’t true, and what we bet the nation against. People are different and have different interests, needs, behaviors and talents. No amount of telling them what to do and what to think can change that.

By SET

September 6, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

PS: Jim D, your comment that “let’s say the bell curve theory is correct. Accordingly only smart people would have smart children, Right? indicates a total non-understanding of the book’s theories and conclusions. This may explain your emotional response to the subject matter. Read a summary of the book not written by one of the left wing propaganda factories.

You may remember that TBC concludes that whites as a group are a standard deviation below Asians in IQ. (And Jews)

I don’t see whites crying about that conclusion. It’s clear from the literature that IQ at the higher levels comes at a price. You can’t have it all - although Bill Gates isn’t complaining.

Still, Whites don’t cry “Racism” when you-know-who gets another round of Nobel Prizes.

There are other scales involved in measuring success in different fields. IQ is not everything by a long shot. Still there are BIG differences in racial distribution in any number of factors - prostate cancer to the Protestant Work Ethic.

Human biodiversity is as certain as biodiversity of any other organism.

By DB

September 6, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

The assumption that y’all are making is somewhat flawed, with regards to the IQ test. Again, one must consider what the test is supposed to measure, not what we THINK it measures.

First of all, SET, the American Psychological Association published an interesting rebuttal to “The Bell Curve” in 1995 that I would recommend to you for your reading pleasure. :-) Then we can discuss test biases, contributing factors, and the many, many wildly varying results that have been produced by tests conducted within different cultural populations — not just black, but Hispanic and even Asian.

Secondly, remember that the original IQ test was constructed to identify French kiddies who needed special help. It was a quotient of mental age against chronological age. Even Binet didn’t think that it was a measure of intelligence, per se. It was considered a measure of a child’s grasp of academic issues, and was used to target those kids who were behind in order to bring them up to speed. Kinda like a CRCT. :-)

Third, there’s a great deal of study that has been (and continues to be) done on the effects of social status, genetics, nutrition, etc. on test results. Fascinating stuff.

Finally, there is the concept of multiple intelligences, which absolutely cannot be measured with a single number. The math or science genius who can barely spell, (Einstein, anyone?) or the music prodigies don’t fall in nice, neat little categories, and yet their contributions are of inestimable value.

Having majored in industrial psychology and minored in sociometric statistics (granted, lo these many years ago), let’s just say that I have a healthy skepticism when people start tossing around the meaning of test results without a thorough understanding of what the test, itself, purports to measure.

As far as the question on the table regarding the use of a standardized exit exam — it seems to me that such an exam is a complete waste of time IF what is being taught in the classroom is robust and the child passes that class. I agree with HS Teacher, Too: If the classroom work meets expected state standards, and the child passes the class, why not leave it at that? An exit exam tells a whole population of teachers, “We don’t really trust that you taught this material.” Keep in mind, however, that this means that there WILL be some kids who fail. That’s what it means to be on the left side of the bell curve. Of course, though, we can’t allow a kid to fail … it would hurt his self-esteem.

When I was in high school, it was very clear which kids were going to college, and which kids would be going to vo-tech or secretarial school. The college-bound kids were taking the calculus and physics classes. The others were taking bookkeeping.

Lot of rambling, here — sorry for the rant!

By jim d

September 6, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

Ahh, dear set,

You are assuming that ethnic groups are much the same, yet you, yourself don’t fit the mold. How is it possible then that you want to lump others into nice square hole?

Lets look at the confusion between correlation and causation which permeates the largest section of The Bell Curve, an interminable series of analyses of data gathered from the National Longitudinal Survey of Labor Market Experience of Youth (NLSY). Those data, not surprisingly, indicate that there is an association within each race between IQ and socioeconomic status (SES). Herrnstein and Murray labor mightily in an effort to show that low IQ is the cause of low SES, and not vice versa. Their argument is decked out in all the trappings of sciencena veritable barrage of charts, graphs, tables, appendices, and appeals to statistical techniques that are unknown to most. But on close examination, this scientific emperor is wearing no clothes. (To borrow a phrase from you)

Herrnstein and Murray pick over these data, trying to show that it is overwhelmingly IQ not childhood or adult SES that determines worldly success and the moral praiseworthiness of one’s social behaviors. But their dismissal of SES as a major factor rests ultimately on the self-reports of youngsters. That is not an entirely firm basis. I do not want to suggest that such self-reports are entirely unrelated to reality. We know, after all, that children from differing social class backgrounds do indeed differ in IQ and in the NLSY study the young peoples’ self-reports are correlated with the objective facts of their IQ scores. But comparing the predictive value of those self-reports to that of quantitative test scores is playing with loaded dice. Wouldn’t you agree?

By SET

September 6, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

Jim D: OK I’ll take the bait. Your one child mentioned may be smarter or duller than the parents. But on the average your children as a group, if you have many children, will have a group average towards the (ethnic) norm of the parents.

This is why the SAT test scores of children of wealthy blacks average lower than the children of poor whites when the group averages are compared. It is “reversion to the norm”. SAT score avg numbers are published by the SAT by race and family income. You see similar issues with children of wealthy whites scoring lower than poor asians - a direct cause of the white college admission preferences known as “legacy admits” and “jewish & asian caps” that started in the mid 20th Century and still exist. Without affirmative admission for whites the Ivy League would not have continued to be WASP dominated decades ago.

IQ works as if you compare height. Tall parents will produce children whose group avg height matches the avg for the ethnic/subethnic, not the parent’s individual height. But you can still have a 7 ft Chinese. You see individual outliers - but they are just that, outliers.

The reason that TBC wasn’t published earlier is the need for large datasets and computer power to get the research together. The resulting study indicates that IQ isn’t so far off from height or other physical characteristics of people. There is still issues of nutrition but if you apply the same help to everybody (like more tutoring) you will have exactly the same racial disparities in the improvements (test scores).

Now if the tests consists of a track meet the West Africans will take the gold every year. Seen the Olympics lately?

What does all this mean? It means the different ethnic groups have different needs in public schooling on the average. It means that you have no reason to expect the same percent of asian & black students in the academic classes currently as their percentage of the population. Ditto the football team and the lab science Nobel Prizes. And it means that if these differences are not allowed for you are going to have fighting, anger and dropouts in your school programs. Or a wholesale watering down of standards - Affirmative Action - in a vain attempt to twart the numbers.

By jim d

September 6, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

SET,

Wrong answer!!

My kids are all smarter than their mothers or me.

I’ve mentioned some books and papers that you really must read. Please take the time. The Bell Curve is merely a hoax to keep the downtrodden —-Down. Our society is dependent upon these folks and we must have them. What better way than to convince them they are doomed to the SES they are born into?

By catlady

September 6, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

HS2—in our county, at least until high school, your grades don’t matter a bit. Nor does failing the CRCt. EVERY child goes on, unless the parents stick to their guns and insist the child is held back. Every child. So, being the bright folks that they are, it is common knowledge that it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do. They cannot even be kept in at recess due to not doing their work. No sticks, and no carrots either for good work.

We get the kids from primary who read at beginning or middle first grade leve, and don’t even have SSTs on them. We work like crazy, but the child, at best, makes 3 years’ progress by the end of 5th grade. We don’t want to “destroy their self-esteem” so we merrily send kids to middle school reading on 2nd or third grade level, considered by SSt to be “successful” because we have dumbed down not the type of presentation but the material/espectations. And middle school tries to catch them up, but it is hard to put 5 or 6 years of education into 3 years, so on they go and then we wonder why 50% drop out?

I thought CRCT was supposed to catch non-performing students at certain points and keep them from advancing. It may in some counties. Dana, if you are still looming, WHY isn’t the BOE asking about why a school can have 100 kids fail the CRCT and no one be retained? Looks like the state would want an explanation of why its rules are so obviously flaunted.

By SET

September 6, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Jim D. Actually, I do fit the mold. To get into that I’d have to get more into my own and my family educational and professional development than I will here.

Anyway, my concern is generations of American Blacks consigned to the trash bin of Welfare living, Prisons and really bad healthcare because they didn’t get the quality of education my family and I got from segregated schools in the first six decades of the 20th century and all of the 19th century, and tough integrated schools after that. Not everybody in my extended family makes six figures. We have a very tangible strain of problem children spread out across the 1st and 2nd cousins. Not many, but one in every family group.

I am constantly aware that good public schools are largely destroyed. I have some relatives in tham. Most in fact do go to expensive private schools. As the family divides into haves and have-nots, the haves were numerically superior in my generation, but the screw-ups are having more kids than anyone else, and earlier to boot. The next generation will have a more significant percentage of angry members who can’t support themselves. We can see it already.

There was once a day when the public schools set a standard that you would not fall under. The public school bunch now don’t even seem to know the Pledge of Allegiance but they think they know “their rights”. They are woefully less educated than their parents were at the same age.

We’re drifting. This thread was on Exit Exams. My original point was that I agree with the use of exams to separate the crowd for tracking to different schools and programs. The TBC thing will play out over time in various threads. Like credit scoring - which is highly linked to IQ - we are seeing widespread use of computerization and behaviorial actuarial science to tag people so that interested others can play with them or refuse to.

We talk about HS exit exams as CA moves to put time pressure computer testing at the DMV office. Those that haven’t taken a look at TBC’s major conclusion should do so to be aware of what was predicted therein and is coming to pass. The US Society is dividing into a hereditary overclass largely based on IQ, that schools, works, marrys and otherwise associates exclusively with each other to the detriment of the underclass and national cohesion. This cuts across ethnics although the numbers vary by race. That was the main point of Murray’s Book.

If we trash those that don’t make the IQ cut (bad public schools) we will be shrinking the middle class to nearly nothing and end up looking like the society in the movie “Blade Runner”. Our public schools once held back this process and ensured a middle class.

Brave New World

By HS Teacher Too

September 6, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

You are, of course, correct about not retaining students and all of the countless “self-esteem” reasons that we don’t enforce consequences. We are probably both in vehement agreement that it’s awful. But there ARE places in the country where there are still consequences. I know that, because I grew up in such a place. Maybe that’s not fair; maybe things have changed even there. But (far) more recently, I taught in such a place. I will grant you that it was, in this day and age, an exception rather than the rule, but my point is that it CAN be done and is not (yet?) extinct.

My hope is that Gen. X, which is presently starting to put their own children into the school system, might see that the system is failing and try to re-establish some of what we grew up with; goodness knows that Gen Y, who grew up with the garbage in the schools presently, won’t know any differently to think that anything should change. I look to fellow teachers my age (Gen. X) and we are all in agreement that there needs to be a return to rigor and to meaningful consequences. The kids who are in school now, their parents wanted too badly to be their kids’ friends and not their parents. Hopefully that will change, and with that change will come a force that calls for — demands — a return to common sense in schools.

Your point about the CRCT is well taken, too. It’s just the same with the EOCTs — kids can take an entire course and FAIL the EOCT but because of the way it is graded, they still pass the class. What’s the point? Kids know this … I’ve said many times before that I grew up in NY, where we had Regents exams as our EOCTs. Fail the regents, fail the class. That A you had for four semesters? Clearly there was a breakdown somewhere … and it was YOUR problem to bear. Again, it all points to accountablity and consequences and — dare I say it — backbones. The trouble is that teachers with backbones are forced to give in or to get out. Until the people in charge (administrators, etc.) back up the teachers who enforce any level of rigor and consequence, the argument is really moot.

SET is fond of saying “brave new world.” I simply reiterate that my children will NOT be educated in Georgia public schools.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 8:25 AM | Link to this

Right you are SET,

and in accordance with the Bell Curve theory (since IQ can not be improved upon) we should stop wasting time and resources on un-educatable white, black and latino popultaions, focusing soley on educating children of Asian of Jewish decent. We could close 90% of our schools and invest in prisons for the rest.

How much would you personally stand to benefit financially from a plan like that?

Brave New Serfdom!

By WFC

September 7, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

I agree with SET about 90% of the time and when I don’t, I still admire him for doing his homework.

One aspect of the whole testing/achievement discussion that seems to get little play is the inherent POLITICS of public schools. I was “gently nudged” into retirement after 31 years of teaching because I called-out a child who was always whining and complaining. I finally got tired of her being “snippy” and told her to “stop being a princess (self-centered female child) and start studying to bring up her 54% grade (the lowest in any of my classes.) Long story short: her mom, also a teacher, had “connections downtown” and things went downhill from there. Teachers should demand more? Give me a break!

The IQ and Bell Curve business. To the best of my knowledge (it’s been 35 years since I studied stats and was a grad assistant to two stat profs) the Bell Curve itself (and its basic premise— central tendency) is NOT a theory but a well established FACT. It’s how it is USED that creates the controversy. In my opinion, much more of the perceived racial difference in IQ scores can be attributed to differences in written language processing skills than to any real difference in abstract “intelligence.”

How did I reach this conclusion? 31 years of experience observing students in the classroom. I believe that any experienced teacher can tell who “gets it” and who doesn’t through classroom interaction. I’ve noticed that African-American students consistently (with very few exceptions) score about 10% lower on my tests than I would have expected based on my inteeractions with them. My tests required rather quick reading comprehension skills. Hmmmmm

I would like to study the development of written language in the cultures of sub-Saharan Africa but I fear that the PC movement would label me “racist.”

By jim d

September 7, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

WFC,

I think where the Bell Cuves fails is that it contends the SES of a student can be used to predict test results. I contend that test results may be able to predict a students SES. Actually quite a difference. I do not believe for a single moment that students are damned to an eternity of poverity and low intelligence based on their SES as a child. There are entirely too many variables that are being ignored by the Bell Curve theory. Just little things like a desire to learn and better their situation. I do believe that sometimes growing up in a lower SES environment one developes a desire and a drive to improve their SES as an adult, sometimes exceeding their own goals.

Now there’s the word I was looking for. GOALS. Perhaps that is a subject that should be taught in public schools. “Setting Realistic Goals—Attaining them —-Then Raising the Bar”

By DB

September 7, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

There’s some interesting stuff on how IQ measurement is only effective within a certain age range. The line charts showing IQ diminishing with age is rather an eye-opener. :-)

By SET

September 7, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Jim D: You comment about only trying to educate Asians because of their supposedly higher IQ is just childish. Why are you so emotional about this subject?

Education is important and should be used for all to the extent they are ready, willing and able to take it. Clearly subjects such as Calculus and advanced lab sciences should not be crammed down the throats of those with little aptitude for them. You are going to have black Calculus majors just not very many per thousand black students.

But there are subjects and competencies for all - they just are not going to be the same ratio for each ethnic group. I believe in testing - going over the various scoring systems with the families and students involved, and giving them as much choice as possible. I don’t believe in forcing missmatches on people to the point that they want to kill someone out of frustration.

And that goes for making people attend a program where they will not follow the rules because they hate the rules too much.

I am a lawyer. Do you think Asians, smart as they are, had a good time in law school? Typically the other students walk all over them in class and in practice. While there are successful Asians who have made it to law practice it is very difficult for them to overcome generations of conditioning to manage the verbal, tactical and aggressive/combat skills of, say, the Irish kids.

As you refuse to admit, IQ isn’t everything by a long shot. It can be toxic at high levels. Some of the smarter people I worked with have psychiatrists on speedial and have to titrate their meds to center themselves. They can think too much and worry about things that are not so likely (to me) to lose sleep over. And it seems that at some point you lose other abilities at higher levels.

I could go on, Thomas Edison was a genius but he lost control of his companies due to mismanagement and poor judgment.

There is an occupation for everyone. The schools should help students find what they are good at and put them on the track to work or advanced education. We screw that job up now especially for the left side of the bell curve. We must do better.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

SET,

I’m afraid you have confused logic with emotion. I simply asked a logical question regarding the waste of resources.

On another issue you mentioned earlier. Here are a few problems I see with reverting back to the segregated schools of the 50’s

If we limit ourselves to any one group, we’re not getting the full flavor and we’re not prepared to communicate to all kinds of people. School sets the stage for what happens in our adult life. If we keep our kids segregated when they grow up, what can we expect when they grow older? My child has friends from most SES’s and of most races.

Pretending that there are no cultural differences between races contribute to the problem, differences should not only be acknowledged, but also used to improve education. For example, research shows African-American children respond better to direct commands because it’s closer to what they hear at home. (A recent expierence really drove that point home with me)

Disparate expectations should be addressed as well. For example, some whites assume black parents care little about education and some blacks assume everything comes easy for white students. Such misconceptions, born in the schools, may blossom in the work place as assumptions about race-based hiring or promotions, even a lack of trust while working together. Why is this true? Well, many blacks and Asians are culturally less likely to speak up, either in self-promotion or to make it clear they want a promotion or to be on a project. As a result, a white boss may decide the black employee is not really interested in the job while the employee may assume she’s being passed over because of her race.

A lot of those misunderstandings would come up as a result of segregation, with more interaction between cultures … you won’t have that void of unfamiliarity.

SET, I asked myself a question years ago, when trying to decide on putting my child back in the public school system, that I now ask you. “How are kids going to know everything they need, unless they know a lot of different kinds of people?”

Personally I came to the conclusion that if a child is exposed to more, he can choose from the best of everything. I voted for more diversity in his life to improve his people skills, with no regrets as I look back.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Oh and SET,

My charge of disingenuousness with the Bell Curve Theory receives its strongest affirmation in a sentence tucked away on the first page of Appendix 4, page 593: the authors state, “In the text, we do not refer to the usual measure of goodness of fit for multiple regressions,R2, but they are presented here for the cross–sectional analyses.” Now, why do you suppose they excluded from the text, and relegated to an appendix that very few people will read, or even consult, a number that, by their own admission, is “the usual measure of goodness of fit”? Personally, I can only conclude that Herrnstein and Murray did not choose to admit in the main text the extreme weakness of their vaunted relationships.

By SET

September 7, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Your commentary about your plan for your child is really charming. He has a father and a plan. You’ve already insisted to us the he’s of high IQ. Now who cares..

In these discussions we are dealing with public school policy rather than the decisions of one family. So let’s get to the point. The more choice the better. But what people choose will be their decision not yours.

No one wants to go to urban public schools as presently constituted. They do more harm than good. By refusing to acknowledge the existance of the left side of the bell curve and offer programs that have a reasonable expectation to lead to an occupation, we consign people who could have been (and once were) made middle class to a life of failure.

You cannot treat an IQ of 80 similarly to an IQ of 120. Even mixing the two groups post puberty in academic classes is dangerous to both. If I am correct, there are major racial issues because the best data available is that 5 out of 6 US blacks do not have an IQ of 100 or over (and that number could well get worse with US’ diseugenics policy). The higher IQ groups will manage on their own. The lower IQ groups are winding up dead and imprisoned at an escalating rate because the supposedly well intentioned educrats won’t do the job of educating and assimilating those who need work into society (I am not talking about the teachers).

US Educrats refuse to discuss the elephant in the room and cling to a baseless policy that all are equal and failure is a result of (teachers or students) being bad or lazy. The results are all around us. I don’t believe our schools do their job and I think bad policy post Great Society is to blame.

The research and conclusions of TBC are not 100% dispositive but they are very compelling and merit consideration in policy. Exactly what do you propose the US do about public education? Keep doing what we have so far? Change anything??

Or do you believe an area with a pop of 5% Black males and over 50% of local state prison terms going to black males is because of “poverty” as some of my relatives would say. And watch the AIDs numbers as they are posted every year. It’s turning into a black disease here in CA. We drafted and enlisted nearly all men in WWII and managed to deal with both VD and crime in the lower ranks then. Of course the education and training was very much in concrete terms and easy to understand. Movies were used a lot.

I do agree with the relatives comment that education makes a difference but the way education is attempted and on who makes the difference. We are not educating the left side of the curve much at all. And I’m not going to blame them because I know that the schools did better several generations ago with the same people.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Oh my SET,

I never intended to give the impression I thought everyone was equal in intelligence. The problem though really doesn’t lie totally in IQ though. The problem lies more in the differences and the systems inabillity to be able to cope with people as individuals, rather attempting to treat them all the same based on some bogus number referred to as IQ without consideration of other determining factors.

By jim d

September 7, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

Again SET,

You refer to some fictional bell curve without providing the smallest shred of evidence such a thing exists. You asked for commentary regarding my thoughts on the subject and I’ve provided a great deal to dispell the bell curve myth. The commentary appears to have become one sided and I tire, HAGD.

By em

September 7, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

The Georgia High School Graduation Test and End-of-Course-Tests are pointless. I have been boring people for years with this argument. The GHSGT is incredibly easy and the EOCT’s are curved so much that they measure absolutely nothing. This becomes even more apparent when these exams are compared to the NAEP. Bridget, I have suggested before that you delve into this. For the Georgia Department of Education to continue to say that our students are making significant increases is lying at best and perpetuating a fraud at worst. If students were truly performing better would not that possibly translate into other arenas such as the SAT or the ACT even minutely? Oh but I forget, SAT data cannot be used for for comparative purposes.