Get Schooled

By BS Detector

September 5, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

I’m sure Cherokee is struggling with growth.

But it sounds like the Superintendent in Cherokee is using some scare tactics. When parents hear words like “busing” and “year-round school” they get loud and the system gets what they want.

Just a thought

By JJ

September 5, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

As long as the current trend is to develop as much greenspace as possible, it will never end. As soon as a school opens, it is overcrowded. A joke I read the other day, was a man had a garage sale, and sold a bucket of dirt to a developer, and he immediately put a strip mall on it. It seems to be true now.

Counties need to issue moritoriums to stop development immediately, and let the schools and roads catch up.

In the four years I have lived in my house in Sugar Hill, 7 new subdivisions have gone up on Sycamore Road, four right around me. They are now squeezing another 60 homes into a new subdivision between two other new subdivisions.

No wonder Gwinnett is so crowded. Do we really need another Nail Salon, dry cleaners and WalMart?

By Jeff

September 5, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Looks to be another case of the school system not doing the LOGICAL thing and placing schools based on geography rather than population density.

Take the way Bartow has its 3 HS’s laid out, for example. You have Woodland High on the South end of the county, Cass High just north of Cartersville in the middle of the county, and Adairsville High on the north end of the county. Each has a corresponding MS within their lateral zone, and in fact there is another MS in the southern zone, and half of its students (roughly) go to Cass (the ones that live on the northern end of the zone, presumably), and the others go to Woodland.

In Cherokee, you don’t have that. You literally have two of their 5 HS’s within a mile and a half of each other on Towne Lake Parkway (Woodstock and Etowah), two more only 8 miles apart in the middle zone (Sequoyah and Cherokee), and their newest HS in the lone HS in the northern zone.

Now look at Lee County: 2 ES’s, 2 Primary Schools, 1 MS, 1 HS. All 6 schools are located within about 2 square miles of each other in Leesburg. But the thing about it is, They have the county divided between the ES/PS schools as East/ West, and the schools locations correspond - though they are in the center of the county, if you draw an imaginary line dividing Lee County in half east/west, you will see that while the 4 schools in question practically sit on that line, they are in fact on the appropriate sides of it. Meaning that a student living on either end of the county as far as east/ west goes will have to ride no further than halfway across the county. And since Lee has nowhere NEAR the population of Cherokee (I know some apartment complexes in Cherokee that have more people than Lee County!!), it makes sense.

By Ms. REality

September 5, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Let’s be real, there is overcrowding because the government refuses to curb illegal immigration…

By JustMe

September 5, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Local governments must stop the continuous development and slow down the pace of growth, period.

This over development not only hurts the school system (over crowded) but it also hurts the infrastructure (roads, water, sewage, etc.).

Local governments must stop the growth and stop looking at the collection of property taxes and start looking to provide services to the citizens already here! Their short-sighted view is going to decrease the quality of life for everyone.

IMHO, local governments are taking bribes from the developers to allow this to happen. Why else would they make such stupid decisions for their voters?

By momtomax&alex

September 5, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

As long as developers are allowed to build subdivision upon subdivision, the schools will remain crowded. I read something about concurrent developing in other states where developers HAVE to do something about infrastructrure before they build more housing. I don’t know the details, but it sounds like a good idea to me. We don’t need more condos, more apartments, more McMansions. We don’t need them. Go somewhere else. Or build the school, roads, hospitals, fire stations, etc, that is needed to sustain it

By Ernest

September 5, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

You realize some of your population challenges aren’t so bad when you hear about those other school systems have. To the point of the story, county commissioners approve zoning requests. It is possible that some of the land was zoned for residential housing years ago and is finally being developed. It is a challenge stopping this kind of development.

I am a proponent of impact fees however it is hard to find a state politician that will push it through the General Assembly. At a minimum, I believe developers should provide a certain amount of greenspace based on the number of units that will be built. If needed, the greenspace could be converted to a school when the need arises.

By Mike

September 5, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

We need to grow a spine and start kicking out the Illegals. Overcrowding problems solved.

By DB

September 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Mostly it’s greed. Municipalities get stars in their eyes when they see the number of new families moving in and multiply that by tax dollars, not realizing that those tax dollars won’t cover increased school infrastructure costs. Developers are happy to tell us how their development will “improve” the area by adding desirable homes, providing shopping, etc. (as if we needed MORE Starbucks …), but skip over the part about schools, etc.

It would be nice to see planning/zoning boards come up with a formula that basically fines the developer for building housing in a school district that is overcrowded. For example, if a school is more than some percentage over capacity (15%?), then a developer has to pay a substantial “school impact fee” in order to build their homes/condos/apartments, with the money earmarked towards more schools/expansion, etc.

Perhaps that would encourage developers to look at areas that aren’t bumping up against overdevelopment as it is. In the Austin Elementary school district in DeKalb, for example, the school that was built for 555 kids, currently has 755 kids — 36% over capacity — with two proposed developments in the Perimeter area adding an estimated 270 kids — making the school an estimated 84% over-capacity. The school already has 14 trailers taking up the playing fields, which cuts into the quality of school life that brought so many to the Austin district in the first place.

A new elementary school is $5-8 million dollars — more than that for middle and high schools. Add in teacher and administrative salaries. Divide it by the number of kids at capacity. Say, a $6 mil school with 600 kids. $10,000 per kid. If a proposed development shoves it over 660, then $10,000 per kid over. Adding an extra 100 kids? Fork over $1 mil. That ought to help a bit with crowding. :-)

Having every child in the school certified as a legal resident would also be nice.

Thank god for private schools — can you imagine the mess the public schools would be in if a significant percentage of the kids weren’t opting out of the system entirely and going elsewhere?! You only think it’s crowded, now.

By jc

September 5, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

I agree with ms reality… Walk through the hallways of woodstock HS. I bet it would be safe to say that 60% of the hispanic students there are here illegally.

By the only smart guy in woodstock

September 5, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Cherokee in the past tried to champion themselves as “anti-gwinnett” land of “smart growth”. If by “smart” you mean dumb idiots, then you are right on track. Where’d the Planning Coordinator go to College? Kennesaw? Seems like it.

By Rick in Lawrenceville

September 5, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

Children of illegal immigrants are one of the reasons we have overcrowding of schools!

Even a 10% contribution on the part of illegals is significant.

By JJ

September 5, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

From what I understand from friends who used to live in San Diego, CA, that when a developer/builder builds and subdivision, they (The developer/builder) MUST pay for the schools and road projects.

Maybe we out to send our elected officials out there to see what is happening……..

ISSUE BUILDING MORITORIUMS!!!!!! STOP THE MADNESS!!!!

By atlmom

September 5, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Well, it took atlanta public schools many years to look around and say: oh, look, where did all these people come from? Hmmm - EVERYONE ELSE knew that intown neighborhoods are becoming more popular (they didn’t notice the increase in tax revenues?).

So now APS is saying that only one or two of the schools is projected to be growing (!) in the next few years -when all I see are new subdivisions and condos and bigger houses. Where do they think all those kids at atlantic station are going to be going to school? Or do they think that ALL of the people moving there are singles or couples with NO kids?

By jewel

September 5, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

This is why I moved my family out of Georgia (among other reasons as well) Now, my kids are getting a good education-maximum 18 kids per classroom and they are all “A” students now.

By Jane

September 5, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

Building new infrastructure—adding actual buildings to an existing school instead of spending the money earmarked for the school on the Football field would have been a good start Dr. P.—(i.e. Etowah H.S.) Builders pay the School Board for the houses Built in the area (Harmony on the Lakes) and Dr P. purchases trailers—real wise investment. Why not ask the contractors giving the money to donate some time instead - to add to the actual buildings on the school property—contractors include: plumbers/electricians/HVAC personnel/brick masons etc. within the area—if they live there then it is logical they would give some time so as not to have to give the School board more MONEY.
Dr. P. your lack of planning does not constitute the ability to demand contractors/builders give you anything—why should you be able to take away from their ability to earn a living? Also, the number of students that only speak Spanish in the Cherokee school system is outragous. If they can not prove citizenship they should not be there.

By Elaine

September 5, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

This problem is a direct result of the way our state and county governments (not School Boards) allot the tax dollars to school systems. A school does not receive funding for a student until AFTER he/she has already enrolled (i.e the next school year). Under the current system, there is very little way for any school system in the state of GA to proactively prepare for students who they know are going to arrive, but haven’t as of yet. Hence the trailers…

Systems estimate their next school year’s budgets in Jan-April, but do not actually receive their tax revenues until June at best, or sometimes as late as July. In other words, a school system in Georgia doesn’t know it’s real, true operating budget for the next school year until the summer before it starts. So facilities and personel decisions are made based on last September’s enrollment with a projected estimation of growth/atrition. THEN, at the 10th day of school (or 20th, in some systems), systems compile their actual enrollments and sometimes receive add’l funding or move it around from school to school as enrollment does/doesn’t meet projections. There is little to no “cushion” for rounding-up, or preparing for a few more than projected. It is a strict by-student formula. If you’ve ever had one of your children get a new teacher or schedule change at the 3rd week of school…this ridiculous system is why.

People waiting to enroll their children the day school starts, or worse, after Labor Day, throw another wrench in the already messed up system as well. It is so crucial for parents of rising Kindergarteners to go for early spring registration, and for those moving into an area to register as early as possible.

Also, it wasn’t all that long ago that leaders in Cherokee repeatedly pushed for an “impact tax” that developers would pay for the intial infrastructure necessary (the biggest being the schools) to support new development. This would open up some front-end money for the school district to plan ahead. Repeatedly, this initiative was shot down. The same voters and leaders who refused this initiative, are the same ones who are now up-in-arms about overcrowding.

And to Jane, above, I do not know the Etowah situation specifically; I’m only speaking of general laws/policies in place statewide. I do know, however, that extras like football stadiums are regularly paid for with extra monies from booster clubs, etc. County dollars are not often readily available for such things, and private school-raised money cannot be used for main school building construction or personnel. (It would be good if it could.) The principal’s hands may have been tied.

And what money are contractors paying to the School Board? In the last report I read, the impact tax in Cherokee never passed…Is that not true?

By Illegal Aliens

September 5, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Can someone provide (by school) how many students are enrolled in Gwinnett schools as dependents of undocumented workers? Enforce the law, remove illegal aliens and this would help (stress help) solve the school over-crowding issue. If you don’t think there are thousands of illegal students in Gwinnett just any day go down to the Juvenile Court Center (or whatever its called) in Lawrenceville and see how many (likely) illegal alien students are here. You will be shocked. In closing, everyone is welcome here; just do it legally.

By Never

September 5, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

When are school systems, developers and city and county governments going to start working together to control the out-of-control growth in some public schools — and when are citizens going to make them?

Never. Just lump this in with America’s failing infrastructure and her misplaced priorities.

By Elaine

September 5, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

to DB:

Fulton is requiring that all students provide a legal Affidavit of Residence for enrollment. It is required every year of every kid. You can read about it here:

http://www.fultonschools.org/story_detail.asp?id=1933

I’ll bet there was a lot of grumbling on the part of parents having to get the forms prepared, but it’s in their own kids’ best interest.

By V for Vendetta

September 5, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

As some have stated, part of the problem is the rampant and exploitative development of land. The never-ending construction of apartment complexes and lower-priced townhomes has ruined many a good area. It’s about time developers started being scrutinzed a little more carefully, especially where the economic (and cultural) impact of their projects is concerned.

I grew up in Gwinnett, and as a young’un out there I can remember when some of the roads were still DIRT! Now, many of the old neighborhoods are full of undesirable people and apartment complexes have sprung up all over the place. The result: Tons of illegal aliens and loads of Dekalb county’s backwash.

The impact on the education is tangible, just look at Meadowcreek, Norcross, Berkmar, Shiloh, and South Gwinnett. Once proud schools that have been reduced to running gags. Trust me, it won’t be long before some of the famous names, names like Parkview, Brookwood, and Collins Hill, are in that same group. It’s one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen. I used to have pride about the area I grew up in, now I’m just glad I’m gone.

By Angie

September 5, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Wow, operating at 140 percent capacity??? How is that even legal?

I agree that this is an issue of bad politics and greedy developers. It amazes me how many trailers were added to the elementary school near us…at least twice as many as they had last year. It looks awful.

DB, you’re right…but don’t forget those of us who also opted-out of the system to homeschool. If I’d known it would be this easy and fulfilling, I’d have done it a long time ago.

By To Elaine

September 5, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Elaine, Are the parents providing a legal Affidavit of Residence? Plus you can buy an Affidavit of Residence from the guy standing on the corner of Peachtree and Main. The kids born here are so called ‘legal’ even though their parents are not. Doesn’t help the problem.

By Jane

September 5, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Elaine: I pulled this directly from the AJC metro section for Cherokee County: “Two examples of large subdivisions where the developers were asked to donate property for a new school to serve them are Great Sky in Canton and Harmony on the Lakes in Holly Springs. Great Sky developers refused to donate land for a school, forcing the district to build Hasty Elementary some six or seven miles away to serve the subdivision, Cherokee schools spokesman McGowan said.

In Harmony on the Lakes’ case, the developer did contribute cash per house toward mitigating school impact — basically enough to cover the cost of portable classrooms at nearby Holly Springs Elementary. However, McGowan points out that had the developer contributed land, children living in that neighborhood could be attending a new school within their subdivision.”

I believe that if invested properly the money contributed could have built additional classrooms not purchased trailers.

Why do you believe it is the developers responsibility to plan for the county education expansion—instead of making the BOE plan for the expansion of the infrastructure within the county. I personally pay property taxes every year (even though my children are long grown and gone) and a large chunk of the taxes go directly to the school system. Why is it that no matter how much money the school system has it is never enough? And why does the quality of education not get bette? And why is GA still ranked 46th out of 50?

By Scholar

September 5, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

Control population growth.

By Kiley

September 5, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

“Operating at 140 percent capacity” Can a child even get a quality and fair education with that many exra students?

By Elaine

September 5, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Jane,

I do not believe it is the developers’ responsibility. I do believe, however that the tax dollars they pay to counties do not always “trickle through” to the school systems the way they should. Remember, the tax commissioner and the school board president are not the same guy… Also, Georgia is one of the most kind states in the union to builders/developers…this is why we have such uncontrolled growth. I think there may be somewhere in the middle where the children (in addition to the tax collectors and the developers) can win.

Please do not use SAT rankings as the sole indicator of quality education (“46th out of 50”). And if you must, please compare your local school’s score to national averages, not the state average. For instance, Etowah’s combined average score was 1554 last year, that’s 43 points higher than the national average and 72 points higher than the state average. If SAT score indicates quality education to you, then Etowah’s doing a pretty good job of it despite overcrowding.

By Madness

September 5, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

In other major cities developers are REQUIRED to donate land and the infrastructure it willl take to support their developments, and are only allowed to develop small parts at a time so the infrastructure keeps pace. The metro area needs to put a moratorium on growth until they figure out how to support the people who are already here.

By Mandy

September 5, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

“Legal Resident” of a school district doesn’t mean if they are a legal citizen of the US. It means do they live in the school district they are attending. And schools can not, by law, ask for proof of citizenship of ANY student. The only things students can be asked is to prove that they live in the school district. Whoever shows up at our school dorrs, as long as they can “prove” they are in that school district, must be given an education.

By Jane

September 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

I do not use SAT rankings as the sole indicator of quality education. I do compare test scores from Elementary schools and now that I have grandchildren in these schools I am appalled at some of the teaching styles used. I was most angry last year to have a teacher tell me “Well, boys generally learn slower and just don’t get it so don’t be suprised if he has to repeat”—this said 3 weeks into the school year. This Teacher and I do use the term loosely—had no time for boys and did not teach. However, I find this type of attitude unacceptable. Can you imagine this teacher having to teach year round or two shifts a day—it would put a new student off of school. Having overcrowded classrooms is not the students fault—even if the BOE knows that they will have to adjust the budget after 5 years of the same type of growth—some type of prempetive planning could be done. Why do we continually have to put out fires instead of being proactive?

By sage

September 5, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with Ms. REality. The problems with overcrowding are in large part due to immigration, both illegal and legal. My sister-in-law has taught at a number of schools in metro atlanta and she almost always has a number of obviously illegal immigrants in her classes - most of whom don’t speak any english at all.

That and idiots breeding like rabbits.

By Dana @ DOE

September 5, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Illegal -

Schools are not allowed by federal law to ask about a student’s residency status. Several court rulings have upheld this saying that even if a child is the product of illegal immigrants, they should be educated.

Dana.

By jim d

September 5, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

you asked “When are school systems, developers and city and county governments going to start working together to control the out-of-control growth in some public schools — and when are citizens going to make them?”

There truly is a short-simple answer to that question. When the housing bubble actually bursts. But then, of course, we will be dealing with much more serious matters.

By Jeff

September 5, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Dana:

NOTHING I am aware of prevents the school from inquiring as to the PARENTS’ immigration status…

All you gotta do is start inquiring about the PARENTS’ immigration status to enroll a student - with the open acknowledgement that you will start deportation proceedings on the PARENTS if the PARENTS are here illegally - and you won’t see anywhere NEAR the amount of children of illegals in the schools…

By Thomas

September 5, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

In Sandy Springs, overcrowding is due to illegal aliens living in overcrowded apartments. Despite having an apartment occupancy law, city officials won’t enforce it because they are afraid of law suits. Meanwhile the schools suffer.

By Thomas

September 5, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

In Sandy Springs, overcrowding is due to illegal aliens living in overcrowded apartments. Despite having an apartment occupancy law, city officials won’t enforce it because they are afraid of law suits. Meanwhile the schools suffer.

By Thomas

September 5, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

In Sandy Springs, overcrowding is due to illegal aliens living in overcrowded apartments. Despite having an apartment occupancy law, city officials won’t enforce it because they are afraid of law suits. Meanwhile the schools suffer.

By GOB

September 5, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

with the open acknowledgement that you will start deportation proceedings on the PARENTS if the PARENTS are here illegally - and you won’t see anywhere NEAR the amount of children of illegals in the schools…

Would you rather have them in schools or on the street where their potential to create problems is exponentially higher?

By HS Teacher Too

September 5, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

A lot of folks are saying that the solution is to get rid of the illegals. But isn’t the law that the public schools have to educate EVERYONE, regardless of whether they are here legally? Changing this law will probably happen at the same time that the overcrowding does — not because they are related, but because a certain place will have surely frozen over.

I think we ought to hold the county commissioners, etc. accountable. I read that article about Mill Creek, and EVEN WHEN the new high school is complete to alleviate some of teh overcrowding, they ALREADY KNOW they will STILL be over capacity. How is this legal???????? Aren’t there health codes, fire codes, etc, that ought to concern us? I used to teach at a certain high school in Gwinnett and when we had fire drills because of the locations of the trailers we could literally get no more than 20 feet from the building during our drills. What good is that?!

Someone posed the question, can you really get a quality education with this kind of overcrowding? My sense is that no, you can’t. The good, motivated kids will get an education despite the system, but the rest of the kids are too often lost in the crowd. That’s not to say teachers don’t provide the best education they can, but even in terms of what you can PHYSICALLY DO in a trailer compared to what you can do in a traditional classroom, we preclude by default the kinds of innovation and activities that enrich education.

By HS Teacher Too

September 5, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta —

Parkview and Brookwood are well on their way, I agree, but Collins Hill is already there. Walk the halls and you hear as much Spanish as English, and often more Spanish than English. Many classes are majority-minority.

In an of itself, this isn’t a problem but you can imagine that there are problems that are tied to this and are somewhat inseparable from this phenomenon.

By HS Teacher Too

September 5, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

in *and of itself*

By Lee

September 5, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

The irony is overwhelming….

Developers stuff 1000 houses into an area which used to be home to 4-5 nice farms. These new homes bring additional people into the area, many with children who will attend local schools.

Contractors who build these homes hire hundreds of illegal aliens, who in turn bring their illegal offspring to further overcrowd the schools.

The federalacky government has a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy regarding illegal alien criminals.

And to think, this is the country founded by patriots who got up in arms over a tea tax.

Keep your powder dry boys…

By jim d

September 6, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Enough of the lies and misconceptions!

I’m afraid you and many other bloggers have bought into a myth.

So here are a couple of facts!

It’s an urban myth that immigrants don’t pay taxes. All immigrants pay sales and property taxes, and some undocumented immigrants even pay income taxes. If they ever hope to become a documented immigrant and then a citizen, they have to pay their taxes. It’s part of the good character process that they have to qualify for. One might argue that good character comes naturally with immigration, for immigrants tend to open restaurants, invest in small businesses, and revitalize communities that would otherwise be considered lost. Even the enormous amount of remittance money that immigrants send back home will be used by the local populace to fund American companies like Coca Cola, McDonalds, and Ford. The people who immigrate here are active citizens. They work every day to construct a better society where they live, working to strengthen their community. We have in immigrants some pretty ideal citizens, whom unfortunately the national government does not recognize as citizens.

That being said, they are paying for schooling so why the hell should we deprive them of the opportunity

By V for Vendetta

September 6, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

Actually, Lee, it was a country founded by religious extremists who cared more about religion than education. Now where does that sound familiar?

Kidding. Sort of.

HS Too, I’m sorry to hear that about Collins Hill. I can remember when CHHS was new, thinking it was great to have a HUGE new school that was the equal of the Gwinnett greats. It’s sad, and also very revealing, to hear otherwise. Some of the schools in Gwinnett might be protected by their high-priced school districts (North Gwinnett, Mill Creek, and to some extent, Brookwood), but the schools that include lower-income housing and/or apartment complexes (Parkview and Peachtree Ridge) are going to fall, and fall hard.

What a shame. And it’s all due to two main factors: unchecked development and J Alvin Wilbanks. Seems to me that both those problems could be solved (relatively) easily.

By jim d

September 6, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

Lee,

And by the way, here’s a bit of history on those patriots you speak of.

http://www.dinsdoc.com/butler-1.htm

By mgys mom

September 12, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I have that same question for several years now - when are all the developers, the county commissioners, planning and zoning and the school board all going to get on the same page and cooperate with one another. Not only is my daughter in one of 34 trailers at her school, but also goes to lunch at 10:15 a.m. - a mere 2 hours after she gets to school. Not only does administration have to deal with trailers, parents who don’t want their children in trailers, but they also have to schedule 30 minute lunch times for each class for almost 1,500 students when the cafeteria was built for 1,000!
Upon questioning the school board rep about 10:00 lunch times, a parent was told to contact the principal. The poor principal’s hands are tied as he is told how many students to take; he is told he every child and teacher gets 30 minutes for lunch - no less; he only has a certain # of hours in which he can schedule lunch.
The children suffer from this overcrowding; the teachers suffer; the administration suffers. From where I sit, only the developers are winning on this issue