Get Schooled

By Jeff

August 31, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

I think the prof is being unneccessarily crucified.

As a professor of Pharmacology and administrator within the overall college, he has a vested interest in students passing said test. Therefore, when he asks students to report back on test questions they remember, it is a perfectly natural thing for him to tell future classes that said questions have appeared on the tests.

K-12 teachers do this every day of every academic year, and no one says a thing about it. I know the only reason I did NOT do it was because I had never seen the Geometry EOCT before. Though I had other teachers telling ME: “this will be on the test, make sure your kids know it”. So I would pass that tidbit along when we were covering something I had been told WOULD be on the test: “Know this like the back of you hand, because you WILL see it.”

I even do a similar thing with prospective Math teachers looking at taking the Math Proofs PRAXIS II test: When I took it, the two major questions were a geometry construction and a question about Group Theory. If I remembered the exact wording, I would have ZERO qualms about passing it along.

By Lee

August 31, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

OK, a few things to consider:

• This professor is RETIRED from UGA and sounds like he put together a business to go around and give test prep seminars. That’s no different than any of the other thousands of seminars people attend every week in this country.

• When I was preparing for the CPA exam many years ago, I attended a CPA Review Course which used many questions from old exams.

• When I was preparing for another certification a few years ago, I bought a computer program from the certifying association which drilled the student using old test questions.

• Reading between the lines, I would say this sounds more like a pi55ing contest between the UGA professor and that Oklahoma professor that turned him in.

Watching Phd types throw down in a hissy fit is great sport, unless of course, you are one of the graduates who was signed up to take the exam that has been cancelled.

By jim d

August 31, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Lee & Jeff,

I don’t know guy’s. I’m not too sure I’d want these students filling my perscriptions. Think about it.

By V for Vendetta

August 31, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Yes and no. I can completely see both sides of it. Lee and Jeff both make some very rational (and factual) points, but Jim is also correct. Where do we draw the line? When does prep cross the line into, dare I say it, cheating? All teachers feel pressure - especially with NCLB hanging over our heads - to “teach to the test,” at times. When does it go too far? Hard to say, really.

I really feel for the students in this case, and I do agree that, perhaps, this prof is being scrutinized a bit excessively. But then I remember a certain tutor I had as a NCAA D1 athlete - she was the profs daughter and her reviews were suspiciously familiar. Yikes.

By Stacey

August 31, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Several years ago I took a 40 hour course to prepare for the exam to become a licensed insurance agent (Life, Health & Disability). As we went through the book, the instructor advised us to highlight certain areas that were likely going to be on the test. She spent extra time making sure we knew that information inside & out. Other areas that weren’t known to be on the test were given a brief overview. If we knew that our chosen fields would focus on one of those areas, we would spend extra time or meet one on one to give more in depth training (a few people did seek the additional training). On the last day of class, she passed out a “For Your Eyes Only” study guide with past test questions. She told us that although there were about a half dozen or so different test “booklets” (it was all on computer), her study guide provided 90% of the questions. I took the test the next week while all of the information was fresh on my mind and there was only one question on my test that was not in the study guide. The questions and answers weren’t verbatim, but they were very accurate.

I called the instructor and told her (to the best of my memory) what the one question I had was so that she could add it to future study guides. The study guides had apprx 180 questions for 100 question test.

By Lee

August 31, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Jim, I’m more concerned about whether the Doctor makes the correct diagnosis. After all, 50% of the Doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class… [For all you pinheads out there, yes, I know it is actually 49.999999~ %. I rounded up. So sue me]

Dont forget that one of the objectives of any certifying association is to limit the number of certifications in order to artificially inflate the prestige and salary of that profession.

It sounds like the UGA professor was too successful and threw the statistics off. When you have UGA graduates passing the pharmacy exam at a 90% rate and other schools have a much lower rate, people start crying foul.

Lot of money and prestige at stake in these pharmacy schools.

By DB

August 31, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

On the AP exams, students have to sign an agreement that they will never disclose the multiple-choice questions contained on the exam. However, the essay questions on some of the exams are usually made available to the teachers after the last day of national testing near the end of May.

I think it would be interesting to see if the pharmacy test has a similar restriction. If so, then the method in which the questions were obtained constitutes cheating.

Realistically, though, it would seem to be an unenforceable regulation. Plus, it seems to point to a certainly laissez faire on the part of the pharmacy test administrators, that they can’t be bothered to come up with new questions (although I guess there’s only so many ways you can query people on drug intereactons.)

I think it’s interesting that people want to know what’s on a test so they “know what to study”. I think it points to a certain amount of laziness on their part, instead of just buckling down and learning the material for it’s own sake and the sake of knowledge, instead of for the sake of performance. I’ve always taught my children that anything in the book or the lectures is fair game. My son is discovering, in his first year of college, that professors are not nearly as forthcoming as to what will be on a test as his high school teachers were :-) He commented he was amazed at how many kids hadn’t done the auxilliary reading for a recent quiz, because the professor hadn’t specifically said that he would give them questions from it. And then they felt betrayed that the teacher had actually expected them to READ the stuff ON THEIR OWN. Goodness, how unfair! she says, sarcastically

By Blind Homer

August 31, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Good job DB. About what I’d expect from an insurance agent Stacey, but you used to be a teacher, Jeff. Too bad you didn’t take that philosophy 3301 course at KSU when you had the chance! The licensing board is lazy and stupid for using the same questions over and over and the professor’s behavior was unethical, period.

By JustMe

August 31, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

If you read the details, the questions provided by this “professor” were EXACTLY THE SAME verbatum as the real questions!

It’s not like the professor said, “Expect a question on the atom.” But rather, “Expect a question that asks, ‘Name the parts of the atom and their relative sizes.’ ” And, that exact question was on the real exam word-for-word.

That is a huge difference in my book.

IMHO, the professor should be somehow punished. Since he seems to be a retired professor, I’m not sure what type of punishment is possible.

Remember everyone, this is an exam that certifies professionals. If John cheats because he doesn’t know the material, do you really want John as YOUR pharmacist? It amazes me how many people take this issue lightly, like it is no big deal….

Your mother needs heart surgery. Do you really want a heart surgen perform her surgery if that surgen had to cheat to pass the medical exam??????

By Jeff

August 31, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Blind:

The name of the game in my field is results. As quickly and efficiently as possible. We steal from each other ALL THE TIME in this field. The general consensus is that if someone has already built it exactly as we need it, why bother re-inventing the wheel? Just to say you could?

As far as that relates here:

As Lee pointed out: Take ANY professional group: Half of them graduated in the BOTTOM half of their class. This fact means NOTHING.

As does passing some test.

Funny how many of the same people that say the SAT/GHSGT/CRCT/EOCT mean NOTHING somehow think that some certification test means something. It really doesn’t - in ANY field. It only knows that a certain set of knowledge was in your head on a certain day. Not that you actually know how to USE said knowledge or even that it is STILL in your head. Also, the test doesn’t reflect on if you had some brain fart, blood sugar issue, headache, or anything else that could have prevented what you REALLY DO KNOW from coming out in the test.

All I’m asking is that you be consistent: If you’re gonna say this test means something and that the professor should be punished, acknowledge that the other K-12 tests ALSO mean something and that STUDENTS should be held accountable for their actions on said tests.

By SET

August 31, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Cheating, my a**.

When I was in law school our library kept files on all the finals across the years by subject. If anyone bothered, and many didn’t, you could copy them and study how the final exam for each subject was historically constructed and graded.

After law school everybody took bar review classes. The CA State Bar published each year’s bar exam questions as the results were announced, along with the model answers. The Bar Review companies analyzed the chain of questions over decades to predict what would be asked in the current year. We studied the construction of a typical exam, how the points were awarded, and what subjects were most often and least often tested. Now not everybody signed up for Bar Review and even then not everybody bothered to show up for all the sessions.

When I passed the overall pass rate for the state was an all time low, it was an off year.

State and National licensing exams are transparent for a reason. Because so much is known about the exam it is difficult for the losers to get a lot of sympathy or traction when they can’t cut it. Everyone knows how these exams work and what is required.

The point is that the pass rates are not high, the CPA exam in CA passes, I believe, some 20% of applicants. The Bar exam flunks maybe half or more.

Remember that these time pressure tests are high affected by IQ (brain processing speed) as well as a working command of the subject matter. Many people can’t pass them no matter how they are coached because they can’t think that fast even if they have been exposed to the material tested.

And they are not kidding when they warn you to get a good night’s sleep.

By SET

August 31, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Typo - “…time pressure tests are highly affected by..” Sorry

By JustMe

August 31, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

Jeff -

So if you really do believe that what you right is true, are you saying that you would get brain surgery from some doctor that isn’t licensed or certified in any way? You would be okay with that?

Come on, now, be honest!

By DB

August 31, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I think there’s a subtle difference in your argument for the SAT vs. a certification exam.

The SAT is an aptitude test. It purports to measure the probability of academic success on a college level. The other tests that you mentioned — well, yes, they OUGHT to test to see if a child has learned what the state has deemed they ought to have picked up at this point in their education.

A certification test is a competency test in a given subject area to determine how much of this subjec the test-taker has learned.

Has a test taker learned the subject if they have just memorized it long enough to store it in short-term memory to regurgitate it on an exam? I don’t think so.

But we’ve become a nation in love with the idea of quantifying concepts such as intelligence. We shouldn’t confuse intelligence — the ability to learn — with competence. Any intelligent person can be too lazy to learn. :-)

By Jeff

August 31, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

Let’s put it this way:

I can pass any test you name to become a teacher in Math, CompSci, and probably even Social Studies RIGHT NOW, and that INCLUDES Pedagogy tests.

Yet many of you would have a problem with me being your child’s teacher.

But I PASSED the test!

By JustMe

August 31, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

Here is another way to think about this….

Institutions (AP, SAT, etc.) pay for these questions. They either hire someone to write them, or they pay some professional orgainization to come up with them. If any of you have ever tried to write good questions without typos or errors that are valid and are clear to the reader, then you know that writing good test questions can be very very difficult.

These questions are intellectual property of that institution. This is similar to how songs are intellectual property of song writers and so on.

If this professor ‘steals’ these questions and distributes them, he is stealing their intellectual property.

Do you support stealing?

By DB

August 31, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

JustMe:

If you are going to get legal on us :-), let’s look at the definition of theft: Theft is “legally the deprivation of the rightful owner of his or her rights to possess, use or destroy property” (vaguely from Wikipedia, but go along with me for a bit …)

In this case, the pharmacy board still has the use of the questions, so there is no “theft” involved. I suppose, however, an argument could be made that the effective “use” of the questions had been rendered null. However, an equal argument could be made that the questions, asked of a test-taker, would still measure that test-taker’s knowledge.

What is probably at issue here is copyright law. If the test clearly indicates that it is copyrighted, then using it in such a way that profits you without recompense to the holder of the copyright is a violation of copyright law.

Topic for discussion to the group: With regard to the entire test-prep industry: What is the difference between paying a small fortune to get questions from a test prep class and a sixth-grader paying a classmate who happened to pick up a copy of this Friday’s geography test from the copier?

By Lee

August 31, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

DB, the difference is timing.

Sorta like a company executive buying and selling stocks based on inside information. Once the information becomes public, it is no longer considered “insider trading.”

By Old Physics Teacher

August 31, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

This is another case of “It’s all about me.” And “I didn’t do anything wrong!”

Sigh, Guys, Sen. Craig is rationalizing his acts the same way you are. At the end of the day, what Dr. Warren did was unethical. That’s far more important. Was it illegal? That’s what lawyers fight over. Their ethics are the ethics of winning. That’s why it’s so easy to get a law degree. They almost give them out with boxes of crackerjacks now, because their certification test is so easy to cheat on. Ethical attorney is an oxymoron.

Right now, pharmacists are regarded as more trustworthy than doctors because of the difficulty in getting the degree and then the difficulty of the certification test. Rest assured, large drug companies hiring pharmacists are now going to be more leery of hiring UGA grads than Mercer University grads. God, I hope so; I want the guy filing my prescription to know if the drugs the sawbones just prescribed are going to interfere with the ones I’m already taking.

As far as K-12 education, back in the 1990’s a UVA professor came to Atlanta to speak to the Ga. School Superintendents Association meeting. He discussed “backloading” as a way of improving our GHSGT scores. For your information, backloading is exactly what Dr. Warren was doing. Not a single superintendent told him what he was proposing was unethical. This is why I am all for keeping “tenure” (hah) in K-12 education. I don’t trust the politicians (administrators) as far as I can throw one.

By 2ManyHypocrites

August 31, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

You guys are hypocrites.

Why is it okay for the teacher to prepare the exact same questions and provide to his/her students? But, when students provide questions from an exam, to other students, they are punished?

Just because it happened in law school, medical school and Undergraduate school does not make what this professor did, right. Think about all those high school students who have been caught sharing past exams with fellow students.

What are you guys saying to the students? Do as I say and not as I do.

Some how you will all make it seem as if the only people cheating are underprivileged students, who had their grades inflated. Yes, this is definitely a form of cheating and I hope the North American Pharmacist Licensure Examination board is successful in making sure this guy gets what he deserves.

What???? Is he too dumb to make up his own questions?

This is just another form of teaching only for the test. And we wonder why our kids aren’t learning anything?

How many of you think it’s okay to punish students who pass out questions to a test?

By JustMe

August 31, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

DB -

So then, according to you there is no protection under the law for song writing? Napster was perfectly legal? LOL! I think that either you are wrong or everyone else is wrong - guess which it is!

Even textbooks that include pre-made tests have their questions protected under the law. I cannot ‘steal’ their questions and publish them as my own. Ever hear of copyright law? Use Wikipedia to look that up!

This professor stole intellectual property and presented it as his own to review for the exam. He did not get permission from, nor give credit to, the rightful owners of the property - and that is illegal. The rightful owners would never give permission!

The professor should be prosecuted and fined and/or jailed.

By Janine

August 31, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

Jeff….Don’t let a surgeon operate on you or anyone you love if he/she has not passed their National Board Exams and become Board Certified.

As SET said, “Remember that these time pressure tests are high affected by IQ (brain processing speed) as well as a working command of the subject matter.” Everybody who gets an MD does not pass the boards, and there are lots of prep classes which are constructed like the others mentioned here today.

By Janine

August 31, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

I have to say that if, as many of you say, this is a crime, then all of these test prep services that charge an arm and a leg for their prep for the LSAT, MCAT, should be locked up! HOw could they make a prep course without knowing how the test is constructed and what types of questions are on it…and yes, even what some of the specific questions are from year to year? They can’t and they don’t!

By Janine

August 31, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

*Justme and other teachers *///Did any of you get the booklets from the StateDept. with practice questions for the CRCT to be used with students? In my Dekalb Middle school we got them…some of the questions were whited out, because….they said… they planned to use them again. However, they used many of the practice questions provided word for word on the next test.

By C.R.H.

August 31, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

Yep, its cheating. Those questions aren’t supposed to be released or discussed. He will probably be sued (like the last time) and have to settle. It looks like he was making a good living from giving the big “heads up” under the guise that it was “test prep”. In other words, people paid him for the test questions. As for students who share old tests, I say “who cares”. I used old tests and changed/added/deleted some questions every year. I encouraged students to talk to former students to get tests, quizzes or whatever. Of course, most students didn’t keep their materials and the ones who did weren’t letting go of it!

By catlady

August 31, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

Some of the questions that appear on the CRCT are available on the on-line practicing that the children do before the test. Word for word. The state provides us the materials. Chew on that!

The test that ESOL students take to exit the program (ACCESS test) has had exactly the same questions for 2 years it has been used here. My students have even said, “Hey, we did this LAST year.” Yet the state of Georgia still pays (lots of) good money for this test.

By thomas

August 31, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

For those of you who don’t know, public school teachers in GA are NOT allowed to discuss or reveal test items. People have lost their jobs over things like this. There is a HUGE mania that occurs whenever standardized tests are about to be taken. Teachers are given mandatory “trainings” on what they can and CANNOT do in regards to the administration of the tests and test materials.

As if anybody really cared about those silly tests anyway.

So a professor giving students test items is a big deal.

By Tony

August 31, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

Jeff has given a very valid point in that there are many who can pass the professional licensure exams who are not fit to practice. This is true for every field that uses testing as a requirement. In teaching there are some really brilliant people who can pass any test you put in front of them. But when you put children in a classroom with them you will have disaster! There are many qualities of humans that can not be measured with tests.

Test-prep programs run rampant anytime there is a test as a gateway. Schools are bombarded with multitudes of test-prep programs designed “to get kids ready for the CRCT” or EOCT or GHSGT. When schools are actually allowed to spend their time with real teaching and learning there is no “test-prep” necessary.

A huge detriment to learning occurs when tests are involved, too. The only thing that gets taught is what is on the test. What good does this do? There is so much to learn and our testing frenzy is locking out many topics from schools because “it is not on the test.”

Testing has its place. Testing as one criterion along with other performance items can be a good thing. But testing as the sole criterion is irresponsible!

Regarding the pharmacy exam - I probably don’t want someone who can’t pass the test administering my prescriptions. But just because a person passes the test doesn’t mean they are the most qualified, either.

By SET

August 31, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

The writers of these tests are in no position to dictate terms to the rest of the world. If they give a test, people are free to tell everyone what they remember from the test.

And that’s a problem because?

The whole point of a test is to legitimately qualify an applicant. The process is not and should not be done in secrecy. There is no copyright on questions once they are used. It’s up to the testing authority to make the questions fresh.

It’s because the Bar exam is so transparent that we accept the fact that the different races have distinctly different pass levels and we don’t worry about it being discriminatory. Everybody can pull their own answers and a copy of the correct answers (multichoice) and model answers (essays) and see what the problem is. As far as I know the process is the same on the other occupational exams here.

The minute you allow a trade guild to have secret tests you get protectionism and the keeping out of competition. You also get higher consumer prices for that trade’s services. We have enough of that with the lawyers (irrationally high prices due to excessive barriers to the trade) - there is an strong argument for creation of lesser licenses and testing for providers of some legal services. Ditto for the physicians and dentists.

To those who would obscure occupational testing - you aren’t King, and the marketplace can regulate as well as the trade guilds.

This whole thread is much ado about nothing.

By Lee

August 31, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

Oh, good grief.

This professor was teaching a review prep class at the UGA Center for Continuing Education. They teach anything and everything there; from Pharmacy Exam prep to word processing to how to get along with your spouse. Heck, any of us could have forked over the money and attended this course.

Professional exam preparation review is big business. Becker, Kaplan, Bisk, MicroMash, etc, etc, all publish and conduct these things. And yes, they do have test questions that have been and will be on the exam.

From everything I have read, this professor is not accused of stealing exam materials. He has put together a review course and materials and it sounds like he is doing a better job at it than some of the other companies out there.

UGA Pharmacy school had a 99% passing rate. The national average is around 90%. Part of the reason for that is that there are only three pharmacy schools in Georgia. UGA is the only public college and the cost to attend there is about 40% of what you would pay at the other two. As a result, getting into UGA Pharmacy school is extremely competitive and UGA has the luxury of choosing the creme of the crop as far as students go. That alone probably accounts for several percentage points above the national average.

BTW, a 90% passing rate is hardly a barrier to certification. The primary barrier in the case of pharmacy is the education requirement.

Contrast that to the CPA, which until about 10 years ago had a passing rate of about 10% for first timers. They finally had to decrease the rigor of the exam and raise the education requirements to eliminate the extreme severity of the exam. The only reason they had this stringent exam was to limit the number of accountants entering the profession as a means to artificially inflate the prestige and salary of the profession.

I’ve got a question for you that think this is a copyright infringement case - how can you violate copyright laws on a product that is closely held and not publicly distributed? Unless they can prove that this professor got his hands on a copy, I don’t think they can. Of course, questions like this are why we have lawyers.

By WFC

September 3, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

The testing mania has gotten out of hand and has become a money-making scam. Any knowlegeable person can spend 30 minutes with me and determine that I KNOW HISTORY at a very high level. I’m retired from teaching but have a son enrolled in A.P. U.S. History at Northview HS. It takes me about ten minutes to determine whether he’s done his work and understands the topic. It will cost Fulton County $100 at the end of this year to find out what I already know. It’s all about the money, folks!

By TinaTeach

September 4, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

This prof has been in trouble before for this exact same issue and had to pay money to the National Pharmacy Board and submit his review session material for two years after that. It sounds like he’s fallen back on old habits…

By mmm

September 4, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

It’s all a scam. The test givers and the test preparers.

The losers are those of us who are forced to accept the monopolies that these tests empower. Whether it is the pharmacist or the public school teacher—we are asked to believe that anyone who “passes” then should be handed power over our children or over counting out our pills. The actual day to day job of a pharmisist is to count pills. A good computer system can do a much better job at scanning for potential drug interactions. And having two well rested people check the count would probably produce less errors than one certified pharmacist who is pulling 12 hour shifts because he/she is the only one “qualified” to count the pills at CVS at 3 a.m.