AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2007 > August > 28 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWe’re No. 46, Again
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Georgia’s average SAT scores declined this year — from a combined score of 1477 last year to 1472 this year, out of a possible 2400 — but the Peach State’s ranking nationally held steady at 46.
I’m still combing through the data the College Board released this morning, but here’s some initial information:
The state’s average score on the Critical Reading portion of the test remained at 494 points, on a scale ranging from 200 to 800 points.
The average score on the Mathematics part of the test dipped a point to 495.
Georgia’s mean score on the Writing section — credited with lifting our ranking last year — dropped four points to 483.
Although the state’s SAT scores declined on nearly every section of the college-entrance exam this year, the U.S. scores also fell across the board. But with a ranking of 46, it’s not surprising that Georgians’ scores remain lackluster when compared to the national averages of 502 in reading, 515 in math and 494 in writing.
The question of the day: How much do you care that Georgia’s SAT scores remain near the bottom?
UPDATE: I thought you would like to see what our elected luminaries have to say about the latest scores.
Gov. Sonny Perdue, in a press release from his office, said:
“While we never like to gain ground by allowing our scores to go down, Georgia was again able to close the gap with the national average, continuing a positive trend for the sixth year in a row.”
Later in the release he said: “Despite the fact that Georgia’s score did not drop at the same rate the national scores dropped, and Georgia held steady its national ranking of 46, we will not be satisfied until Georgia’s SAT scores reflect the quality of education that is being provided to students in our state every day.”
In her own press release, state Superintendent of Schools Kathy Cox sounded a similar refrain: “Georgia’s high school seniors kept pace with the nation … which is good news. Of course, we won’t be satisfied until Georgia is a leader in SAT performance.”
Comments
By Jeff
August 28, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
Let me get this straight:
We are within 10 in one category, within 15 in another, and within 20 in the last, and this is supposedly a big deal?
YEAH, RIGHT!! (HUGE sarcastic smirk)
By JustMe
August 28, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
None.
By DB
August 28, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this
Umm … it’s been a long time since I was working on a minor in statistics — but aren’t all these scores within the range of expected scores for the national average?
When we are comparing apples to apples (i.e., when we are comparing our scores to states who have a similar percentage of students taking the test), then I might care.
Using the SAT at some sort of litmus test for teaching effectiveness only works if you are comparing like samples. You can’t take a sample like Georgia, where a large percentage of students take the test, and compare it to a state where a smaller percentage (the college prep students) take it. It renders the results meaningless. Just out of curiosity, does the SAT score cover just second-semester juniors? Or everyone else taking it?
Personally, what I would find more interesting is a comparison of the scores from a select subgroup such as 7th graders from state to state who take the SAT as part of the TIP program.
By Charles
August 28, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this
As an employer in Georgia I care about how my company is perceived by others. One of my pet peeves is spelling. Even though the word processing software on our computers automatically spell checks, most of the younger employees still can’t produce a document without incorrect spelling or grammatical errors. It’s no surprise to me when I see some of the local schools’ bulletin boards with misspelled words.
Until schools are run independently of the government they’ll continue to fail our children.
By JustMe
August 28, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
Charles, If you really believe what you wrote…. “Until schools are run independently of the government they’ll continue to fail our children.”…… How do you account for the many, many public schools run by government that are succeeding?
By Jeff
August 28, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
According to the national report, there were 1,494,531 tests taken this year.
If every state had equal representation in this, each state would have had 29,891 tests taken.
GA had 59,562!! (219 more tests taken from this state and we would have exactly doubled the per-state average!!)
By Janine
August 28, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
Hey CharlesTeaching grammar is a no-no…I can’t tell you how many times I was reprimanded for doing so. They insisted that grammar instruction be integrated into writing and lit. It always amazed me that the educrats kept saying teaching grammar in isolation doesn’t work, when it is perfectly obvious that when schools took the eliminating grammar instruction path, kids were unable to express themselves clearly in writing.
By verdi73
August 28, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
How many times do we have to be told that we shouldn’t compare SAT scores with other states? It is not intended for this matter. Someone should do some research about individuals who score lower on the SAT, yet graduate from college with honors, and graduate school with honors. You might find some interesting date on that. I scored an 850 on the SAT, yet scored a 33 on the ACT which tests over many other areas that SAT. You got to look at the bigger picture rather than one soundbite and start beating the drum claiming how bad everything is.
By Janine
August 28, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this
The writing scores will remain in the cellar until the powers that be get some common sense and learn from past experience. Years ago there were three quarters in English courses : Emphasis on Grammar,Emphasis on Composition, and Emphasis on Literature . Almost everyone having gone through that process from 6th thru 12th grades graduatued being able to write adequately understandable sentences. Just as one cannot play a concerto on the piano until on learns the basic notes, scales, etc. ..a student cannot write a paragraph until he can write a complete, grammatically correct sentence. I was reprimanded for that appoach. I was told to have them write an essay, and then use the mistakes in it to teach them to write grammatically correct standard American English,. Now…on the annual writing assessment in Ga., the grading system pretty much ignores grammatical errors.
By Janine
August 28, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
DB…Haven’t seen the comparison myself, however, I have read that even when compared to states with similar numbers of students taking the SAT, we are still at the bottom.
By robo
August 28, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Charles,
You should “walk it like you talk it”.
Your grammar stinks like those you complain about. Pull out your 5th grade text and turn to comma usage and possesive nouns.
You must have gone to a “private” or better yet, “home” school.
You sound like either a hypocrite or a dummy.
By DB
August 28, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Jeff, exactly!! Wyoming had a 432 kids taking the test. Given their 15-19 population in 2000 of 21,761, that’s 1.9% of the target audience taking the test. In Georgia, the target population was 309,814. With 59,562 kids taking the test, that’s 19.2 percent taking the test — a multiple of 10!!!! (yes, I know that the number has probably changed a bit in the last 7 years, but I’m comparing apples to apples, here.)
Interesting, but basically meaningless. Even the College Board has warnings about how meaningless it is to rank the data by state.
By Nel
August 28, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this
Untilthe educational jobs program ends and the priority is actually to educate children, things will continue to be this way. There is too much of the make them feel good, at the elementary level, that by the time it gets serious for them, these kids can’t handle criticism. I heard something along these lines on NPR the other day where employers said they are encountering young people who expect to be praised for every little thing that they do. Pretty sad commentary!
One of the biggest problems in this country is that multiple choice has become the idiot way to answer questions because if you can guess well, you can pass easily. You don’t need to truly master a subject.
By Jeff
August 28, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this
My point is: If you’re going to do a meaningless comparison, at LEAST do it right!
Hadn’t gotten to WY yet, but I’m in the process of saving ALL the reports so that I can comb through them at my leisure. And in a couple of these states - ND and WY in particular - our SINGLE A SCHOOLS often have more students in them than took the SAT in these STATES!
By Producer
August 28, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
Aren’t we proud? 46th again! Why are states like North Dakota or Iowa consistently near the top? Georgia has been near the bottom for the last 30 years. Is the answer staring us in the face? Maybe our kids are just not as capable academically.
By DB
August 28, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
Actually, this is the most interesting report from the College Board:
http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/cbsenior/yr2007/tables/3.pdf
According to this, Georgia is 13th in the country with regards to SAT participation rate (Maine, incredibly is 100%, South Dakota is 3%). Just as a quick survey, the 11 states that have participation rates between 62% and 75% (5 up and down from Georgia), the highest reading score is 516 and the highest math is 518 (both, coincidentally, in Vermont). Among those 11 states, Georgia is 10th in reading and 11th in math.
Interesting.
What was also interesting was that, of the top 50% of schools by participation, over the last 10 years, Georgia has had the second HIGHEST gain in the reading (+8), and 4th HIGHEST gain in math (+14). That may be more telling than all the other numbers put togehter — if one was inclined to compare :-) The numbers get really skewed down in the bottom 50%, where the participation rates are in the 3% to 9% range, with increases like 27% in Missouri who has a part. rate of 6%. But the top 50% is pretty consistent.
By Jeff
August 28, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this
College Board President Gaston Caperton said “The larger the population you get to take an examination, it obviously knocks down the scores.”
Producer:
GA number of takers: 59,562
North Dakota number of takers: 286
Iowa number of takers: 1,305
Percentage larger GA vs ND/IA COMBINED: 382%
Again:
College Board President Gaston Caperton said “The larger the population you get to take an examination, it obviously knocks down the scores.”
By DB
August 28, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this
Producer, North Dakota has 286 kids taking the test in 2007. The creme de la creme, if you will. Iowa had 1,305 taking the test in 2007.
North Dakota’s participation rate in 2007 was 4% — #50 on the list. Iowa was also 4% — #48 on the list. Georgia’s participation rates was 69%.
Apples and oranges, guys.
By erica
August 28, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this
It’s easy. We are 46th because GA is full of dumb people in schools run by dumb administrators who are governed by more dumb administrators at the state level. It’s a perfect storm of stupidity.
By DB
August 28, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this
Other interesting extrapolations: Assuming that the 4% participation rate in North Dakota took the top 4% of students, then if we look at the top 4.7% of scorers on the Georgia exam, they scored 700 or higher.
Apples and oranges. Don’t sweat it, folks. Stats are interesting, but they can’t tell the entire picture.
By DB
August 28, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
Sorry, here’s a better link to the participation rate statistics:
[http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/cbsenior/yr2007/tables/3.pdf]
By DB
August 28, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this
One more time … then I will freely admit that HTML is smarter than me!
(http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/cbsenior/yr2007/tables/3.pdf)
By jim d
August 28, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this
What a waste of band width!
By Publicenemynumberone
August 28, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this
Hey DB…try http://tinyurl.com since your link is so long. I’d like to see it.
By SET
August 28, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this
It’s all just a little bit of history repeating…
By DB
August 28, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this
Like I haven’t embarrassed myself enough today … :-)
Here’s the tiny link:
http://tinyurl.com/yodg2m
Neat website, btw!
By catlady
August 28, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this
To use an analogy that makes about as much sense, let’s rank the states academically by using the car tag numbers! The state with the highest average of digits on the car tag is the winner! ‘Cause that is basically what we are doing. As one of my stats teachers said, “You can DO it, but what does it actually TELL you?”
So saying, Georgia students, in general, perform dismally. Our top students are great—tops! but our middle and bottom students are generally very, very sub-par. Our problem is we have so few top ones and so very many middle and bottoms.
At our school, the top students, getting so little attention and such inappropriate instruction (geared for the low ones) are not making a year’s progress in a year on reading. We should be very worried!
In addition, at our school we had 80 odd kids (I think) that failed the CRCT after 2 administrations and STILL were not held back!!! Well, actually ONE was, but only because his parents fought for it and demanded it.
So, while SAT averages are pretty meaningless, it does not mean we are in good shape at all. With data like I have cited above, no wonder!
By HS Teacher Too
August 28, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Catlady,
If I may add to your statement that we have sub-par middle and bottom students: part of the reason for that is that we are so focused on saying “look what we cover” that we go too fast for the kids to learn anything. We’ve all seen reference to the “mile wide, inch deep” conclusiong of the study of our curriculum that came out a few years back. And now (at least in Gwinnett) we are saying that there will be no Technical kids. Well, of course there will be! Simply saying that there won’t be, won’t make it so. And of course, the kids who will suffer will be the TRUE middle-of-the-road kids, whose educations will be (if you can believe it is even possible) further watered-down to meet the needs of the lowest-performing kids. Because, after all, they can’t possibly FAIL the classes they don’t belong in to begin with — we will HAVE to have numbers showing that they are PASSING, so the educrats can point to them and say they knew it all along …
I would sooner stand on a street corner and prostitute myself than to let me daughter go to school in that system.
As far as the SAT scores and Georgia’s ranking, I’ve said this for years — we’re comparing different things, so the comparisons are meaningless. Bridget, I will say this: I do care about our ranking, though, because so many ignorant people point to it without understanding that it is meaningless. And I don’t apoligize for Georgia’s schools failings in countless other ways, but I am quite tired of answering for this misplaced criticism.
By jim d
August 28, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this
just for the @ell of it does anyone know where the figures can be found that would indicate the number of students taking the test for the first time—by state? (since second time testee’e apparently average about 30 points higher the second time around)
By HS Teacher Too
August 28, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
apologize sorry, folks! Lots of typos today …
By catlady
August 28, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this
I saw a note in the paper a couple of days ago about a plan to “broaden” our new state standards. I had to laugh. A couple of years ago the problem, as mentioned above, was the mile wide curriculum. So some genius in the state office decided we needed YET AGAIN a new, better way to talk about curricular goals that would provide better coverage in depth (to mastery?—that would be nice) rather than the rush-through we were doing. We have been implementing this, but have shot ourselves in the feet with the “curriculum mapping” we have had to do. What I see playing out in classrooms is that teachers are back to having to skim over things, not teach to mastery, to keep up with someone’s idea of “where we should be right now”. On top of that comes the call for increasing the width of the new curricular goals. So, seems like we are headed back to the skim and move on school of thought again, thus justifying someone’s state level jobs for another decade so they can “improve it” yet again!
Did anyone else see this and can point me at its source?
Does anyone else see the irony in this?
By catlady
August 28, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this
Let me share another observation I made last week. We got about 240 kids “moved up” from the primary school. Of those, over 100 qualified for EIP services due to performing poorly. Yet, the primary school had SSTs on about a dozen of them. The children are below grade level, but have not had documentation of efforts to increase their performance. So we have to start the process from scratch (time consuming) as though WE JUST DISCOVERED that there is a problem! Now, after we go through all the paperwork stuff, our job will be to DUMB DOWN the expectations until we can say they are “successful”. Then, we will monitor them. It may take us quite a few meetings to get it low enough for them to be successful, since many are working on a first grade level. Eventually we will find something they can do, and we will declare victory and go home. Or, if we never can find something so we can say they are successful, we will consider them for special ed testing BUT THEY WON’T QUALIFY!
It seems like to me the SST idea with its tiers ought to look at the child being successful ON GRADE LEVEL MATERIAL, rather than on how far down we can dumb the material to that expected at much lower grades.
By Charles
August 28, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this
Robo,
Your response was a great example of what the public school systems are producing. Thank you for proving my point.
By HS Teacher Too
August 28, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this
Ugh, this is bothering me and I tried to post it earlier…
Forgive my many typos, but especially apologize
Thanks.
By Roxanne Purcell
August 28, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this
Bridget: I would like to propose a very important topic that needs to be discussed before Friday, August 31, which is the deadline for comments to the State Board on proposed graduation requirements.
I received this information by email today from the Language Dept at my child’s school: On Sept 12th the State Board is voting to change the state graduation requirements. One proposal is to no longer require Foreign Language as a requirement for highschool graduation. Instead language will be a recommended.
College bound students will be encouraged, but not required, to take 2 units of foreign language—this despite the fact that most top tier universities expect to see 4 units of language on students’ transcripts.
There is concern that with foreign language no longer required for graduation, funding for language programs will be cut, and students will eventually be able to get only 2 units of language and not even have the option of taking 4.
Consequently, college bound students applying to out of state schools will be at a serious competitive disadvantage.
As if our students are not already at enough of a disadvantage with GA ranking 46th in the nation on SATs!
Comments on this proposal need to be in the State Board’s office by this Friday, August 31. They can be sent three ways: By Email to: policy@doe.k12.ga.us.
By Mail: Rules Comments, Policy Division Georgia Department of Education 2053 Twin Towers East 205 Jesse Hill Jr. Drive SE Atlanta, GA 30334
By Phone: Comments may be registered by contacting the ASK DOE Help Desk by calling 1-800-311-3627. A representative at ASK DOE will log comments and will provide them to appropriate Department staff.
By the way, this is a public hearing and people can attend and give comments. Go to: State Board Room Georgia Department of Education 2070 Twin Towers East 205 Jesse Hill Jr. Drive SE Atlanta, GA 30334
on Wednesday the 12th and make your voices heard. You need to be on the 20th floor by 12:30pm to speak.
By Dana @ DOE
August 28, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
Roxanne,
Thanks for bringing this up. A couple of points:
1) We will take written comments beyond Aug. 31, although we need time to put them in order for the State Board. So the earlier the better. I would encourage written comments over telephoned comments so there is no change in the transcription of what you say.
2) Foreign language is not required of all students right now — only students getting a “college prep” seal. Tech prep students don’t have to take it. Because we will no longer have seals, foreign language is not a requirement for all students However, the proposed rule makes it clear that college-bound students need to take it. This language is straight from the proposed rule:
Modern Language/Latin: All students are encouraged to earn two units of credit in the same modern language/Latin. Students planning to enter or transfer into a University System of Georgia institution or other postsecondary institution must take two units of the same modern language/Latin.
There is a lot of passion behind requiring foreign language for all students and the Grad Rule committee did talk about it. But the reality is there aren’t enough foreign language teachers right now. That said, it is something that will be discussed in coming years.
And as with everything, the Graduation Rule is simply the minimum requirement. If a system wanted to require foreign languages for all students, they could.
For more information on the grad rule go to our website.
Thanks for bringing this up!
By DB
August 28, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this
jim d, hard to tell from the information provided on collegeboard.com. The scores that are reported are as such: “Data in this report are for high school graduates in the year 2007. Information is summarized for seniors who took the SAT Reasoning Test at any time during their high school years through March 2007. If a student took the test more than once, the most recent score is used.”
By Lisa B.
August 28, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this
Catlady,
We got a new principal this year who actually RETAINED the children who failed the 3rd and 5th grade CRCT! Wow!
By mmm
August 28, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this
I care far less that the GA avg is 40 points below the nation avg (for all the reasons we have already chewed over) than I care that my children’s assigned high school’s average is 239 points below the state average.
It just attested to the same problems that I hear word of mouth, which also squares with it having failed AYP 8 years in a row. And my “choice” is either an online academy or a tech school across the county that is slated for closure and has no athletics program.
By Lee
August 28, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this
Really, all you should worry about is whether your child scored high enough to get into the college of their choice.
When the College Board begins posting scores stratified by a student’s class rank and demographics, then perhaps we might could use the SAT to compare school systems. By that, I mean compare white males who are in the top quartile of their class, for example. But, that is not the purpose of the SAT and there is really no compelling reason for them to do so.
(Many) years ago, when I took the SAT, I never studied or prepared one minute. I went and took the SAT one Saturday morning and went fishing that afternoon. No big deal. I still got into college. I would venture to say that unless a student is trying to get into a competitive school, that’s probably still the prevailing attitude.
By Tony
August 28, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this
The SAT craze is another of our futile efforts to equalize everything. It’s not going to happen. The quickest way to raise SAT scores is to stop encouraging everyone to take the test. Unfortunately for us, even when schools break out the upper level students’ scores, they remain lackluster!
The strongest aspect of our educational system in the US is the chance that every HARD WORKING student has of gaining a good education.
By Ernest
August 28, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
As I’ve stated before, from an economic standpoint, I care. This is one of the indicators businesses look at (be it right or wrong) when determining where to expand and/or establish operations. At the end of the day, I agree with Lee. I don’t rely on the schools to provide everything my children need with regards to an education. I’d like to believe their scores reflect that.
By Tony
August 28, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this
OK. I looked over the charts in the report at collegeboard.org. The distribution of scores by income of families speaks loudly! Family income is one of the most significant predictors of student success on tests like SAT.
By Mark
August 29, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this
I used to get frustrated at the comments people made about Georgia’s SAT ranking. Now, I find their ignorance and inability to reason amusing.
SAT scores are strongly correlated to economics. Other than a few specialized schools that hand pick their students, you will find that the higher the per capita income of a district…the higher the SAT scores. If Fulton County was doing everything right to get such high scores then why aren’t Tri-Cities and Creekside in the Top 10? The sad fact of the matter is that schools, private, public or home-based, have little impact on the SAT. It’s an aptitude test.
As Georgia’s minority population increases by percentage it stands to reason that the SAT scores will suffer. For whatever reason, most minority groups don’t do as well on standardized tests. In many ways, it is quite remarkable that some systems (Gwinnett) have held onto scores above the national average.
When people blame schools for low SAT scores it is just plain ignorance on their part…and somewhat amusing.
By Greg
August 29, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this
good observations DB and Jeff. I wish the AJC would do a more detailed analysis of the data rather than just splash the overall ranking which is practically meaningless. Participation rates make a huge difference - I believe that Maine made the SAT a graduation requirement for 2007, so their participation went to 100% - and their avg. scores dropped by 35 points …
By WFC
August 29, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this
MARK: your comments regarding the SAT are on target. Most SAT comparisons are meaningless blather. The SAT has one AND ONLY ONE purpose: to give a rough estimate of an individual’s aptitude for college level work. That’s it!
The SAT isn’t designed to compare states, districts or schools. To use them this way is silly.
The SAT is designed to predict ACADEMIC APTITUDE (and does a decent job) NOT actual performance. Back in the day, I outscored my sister by 300 points on the SAT. Our GPA’s in college at comparable schools were almost identical.
OK. If you are DETERMINED to mis-use the SAT here’s the deal. I recently retired after 31 years (25 in public schools and 6 in private school, the last 5 at Northview, the #1 SAT school in the state.) Simply recruit Asian students who are proficient in English and limit African-American enrollment as we did at Northview. Asian kids perform about 10-15% BETTER on ANY tests (not just the SAT) than their actual academic ability. African-American students perform about 10% worse on tests than their actual ability. One might ask: “how does one measure “actual academic ability?” Simple. My observations of a student’s performance in my classroom for 180 days are much more valid than one three-hour standardized test. Why the disparity? I’m not sure but I have some theories.
The bottom line is that comparing the SAT scores of Northview and Tri Cities is bogus just as comparing Ga. to other states is bogus.
By Dana from DOE
August 29, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this
It’s encouraging that many of you are picking up on something the media generally misses — the statewide average SAT score does not tell the whole story. There’s a much bigger story.
In the AJC’s defense, they have reported this, but generally the media misses the point.
By Janine
August 29, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
Dana If you actually know that what Mark and Greg and WFC post is true, then you know that the economic factor plays heavily into all of the standardized tests….including the CRCT. Why do the you at the state dept. continue to allow blame/responsibilty to be assigned soley to teachers/schools for low scores…even going so far as to fire entire faculties [restructure!!!] The state could actually produce evidence of that faulty assumption if , instead of firing/restructuring, you would exchange faculties and administrations …i.e. Trade, one for one, the faculties and administrations of a high scoring school with those of a low scoring school and see what happens to the test scores……We all know, there would be no significant difference..
By Jay
August 29, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this
Sounds like a lot of you are in denial about the importance of the SAT, which is a far more reliable measure of academic aptitude than GPA. You can make excuses like the SAT is culturally biased or some students are just poor test takers, but most respectable colleges—and even employers like Goldman Sachs and Google—give it considerable weight when assessing applicants.
By V for Vendetta
August 29, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this
This isn’t even worth commenting on …
By Dana @ DOE
August 29, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
Janine,
The Superintendent is constantly talking about how demographics do play a role in academic performance on the SAT and state tests. Believe me. But she also doesn’t want that to become an excuse either. There are plenty of schools that have very challenging demographics that are doing a great job and are getting great results. Restructuring and consequences like that are required under NCLB, as you know. The state has to administrate that. Local systems do have some flexibility in how they restructure or reconstitute a school. The state doesn’t come in and tell them “fire this person,” etc. Those are local decisions.
By Mark
August 29, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
Jay…I don’t think many people are dissing the SAT. It can be a pretty good indicator of a person’s ability. We laugh at the faulty assumptions people make when they want to compare schools based on SAT scores….whether the comparison is within a state or state to state.
By JustMe
August 29, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this
SET and jim d-
Here is something that happened to me today. I was wondering your insight and input about this situation.
I am a classroom teacher. A mother came to the school very early (I expect before her work and before I got to school) to complain about me. She said that her daughter said I did not offer after school tutoring and that I won’t answer questions in class, among other accusations.
The mother left in anger and left me a note to call. I phoned her and got an ear full. I tried to explain to her that I do offer after school tutoring (it is posted on my classroom door). In fact, a number of students have already come after school in my room for help. And, that very mother SIGNED the syllabus for my course that lists the tutoring days/times. In addition, I gave the mother examples of how I regularly have time set aside in class every day to answer student questions.
She would have none of it. She said that her daughter would NEVER lie.
So, I expect that she is going to escalate this to an admimistrator. She will make these accusations and the administrator will then react by putting me under the microscope, making my life miserable for weeks.
So tell me - what did I do wrong? And, how do you two (the all knowing ones of this blog) ‘fix’ this such it doesn’t happen again? And, can you POSSIBLY see why people are leaving the teaching profession by droves?
As a single person and a teacher, I have come to the conclusion that 95% of people that have children suddenly loose 50% of their IQ points.
By Ernest
August 29, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this
Dana:
Is there a documented, replicable process for success in school and SAT? I think not but everyone is still looking for that ‘silver bullet’. Hopefully, there is a ‘best practices/lessons learned’ type of database that exists for educators who are looking for alternate delivery strategies for hard to reach students.
I also understand the superintendent in not wanting to make excuses. IMO, we cannot address some of these problems until we can have honest and forthright discussions. Sometimes predetermined ‘group definitions’ prevent you from seeing successes.
WFC:
I’d be interested in hearing some of your theories. They would be interesting to discuss.
By decaturparent
August 29, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
Justme, can you send her a copy of the document she signed with a nice not asking her to contact you for a tutoring time for her daughter? You could even highlight the times that tutoring is available b/c obviously she did not see it.
There is a special place in Heaven for teachers. Good luck.
By Blind Homer
August 29, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
DB - Comparing states with similar participation rates gets you started in the right direction but you have to factor in our 27% black SAT takers who score about a standard deviation lower, reducing our overall average scores. Not many black kids in N Dakota or Iowa.
By V for Vendetta
August 29, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
JustMe,
Your admin must be a moron. Why else would you fear someone when you obviously have documentation supporting your position? Teaching these days is all about documentation and what you can prove. The facts are on your side.
If your admin gives you a hard time about it, or sides with the parent, just say “get real” and walk out the door. It’s not like he can fire you. Sometimes, in certain situations, you CAN stand up to the morons in power and win. I’ve done it myself, and you know what, that admin sure bothers me a lot LESS now.
By lynn d
August 29, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this
WFC has it partially right. But here is why. Asian and Asian American families value education more than any other subgroup in this country these days. Those children come home and are surrounded by all the support they need to be successful at school. They often participate in extracurricular activities than are tied to academic success like music or foreign language instruction.
At my children’w elementary school yesterday, a child arrived from Korea speaking no English. By the end of the school year, he will be far more fluent than some of the Hispanic children who have been here much longer.
It is simply a different value system. I am amazed at the number of friends I have who are willing to simply accept their children’s mediocre SATs scores and do nothing proactive to help them (ie Kaplan or other test prep programs). In the Northeast, people of our economic and education level push their children harder as they want more for their children than the University of Alabama or Florida Tech. (no offense to any alumni)
I believe that some of the problem with Georgia’s SATs actually lies in the fact that a whole group of students have given up home of getting in to UGA and their other choices have minimum requirements. Thus, they take the test once and that is all.
By Janine
August 29, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this
Dana @DOE…I’m a little skeptical of your word “plenty”, as in “There are plenty of schools that have very challenging demographics that are doing a great job and are getting great results” However, would you not agree that schools should be compared with other schools with the same demographics, rather than with those that are eons apart? This would also be true of SAT scores from state to state, school to school.
And, MOST IMPORTANTLY, especially for schools with “challenging demographics ” whose scores do not reach the level of those more economically privileged areas….**The school’s/teachers’/administration’s/ students’ success could more accurately be measured by PROGRESS made…i.e.Not by comparing the scores of totally different students…the 2006 8th grade with those of the 2007 8th grade,.. but by comparing the scores of the same students from one year to the next…the scores in the spring of 7th grade with the scores of the spring 8th grade….same students!!
By Ernest
August 29, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this
JustMe, I’d like to take a stab at answering your questions. Based on the information you’ve provided, you did nothing wrong. You’ve got a documentation trail to support you. IMO, if your administrator does not support you, it would only be to save face and prevent confrontation.
Unfortunately, you cannot prevent this from happening again. You are in what I would call a ‘customer facing’ position. I’m sure you remember the two rules:
1 - The customer is always right. 2 - When the customer is wrong, remember rule #1.It comes with the territory. I find myself biting my lip sometimes in situations like that because at the end of the day, they are still my customer. Just make sure your administrator ‘has your back’ if it comes to that.
Beat those Golden Domers!!!
By Dana @ DOE
August 29, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this
When the Superintendent and the State Board put out their NCLB “reauthorization wish list,” the first item was an expansion of growth models. That does exactly what you are talking about.
I’ll bet you’d be surprised by the number of schools with high poverty rates that are doing really well. I don’t have a “list” in front of me, but if you search the AYP reports, you’ll find em.
By Ernest
August 29, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this
Dana:
I’m glad you mentioned NCLB reauthorization. Does the State Board plan to hold any Town Hall meetings, albeit face to face or electronically, to solicit feedback from citizens? I’ve heard my congressman is planning one this fall. It would be nice if there was some collaboration with this.
By catlady
August 29, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this
Or, Justme, you should ask for a meeting with her and your principal immediately. Bring along your documentation. Then, ask her if it is her signature or did her daughter fake it. She will have to admit that she signed but ignored it, or that her “blameless” daughter lied and signed her name. Either way, a pre-emptive strike is best, just to clear the air. Trust me on this.
Also, at the meeting, make notes in front of the principal and the mother, and ask them to sign the minutes of the meeting. (to forestall poor memory on either of their parts).
34 years, I know whereof I speak.
By catlady
August 29, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this
Oh, and if you suspect a problem with your principal, I would email him a summary of the discussion, and copy it back to yourself. Then, if he does not think you have recounted the incident correctly, he can email you a correction. If he does not, just save your email for any further memory-jogging. People pay better attention if they know you are making notes.
By catlady
August 29, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this
At the meeting, make it clear to her and your principal that you will take no further abusive phone calls. If a call becomes abusive, you will terminate the call.
By JCMom
August 29, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this
I agree with Lynn D. My son attends Northview. His honors and AP classes are filled with so many Korean, Chinese and Indian kids that he is sometimes the minority (we are white). It is all about what is valued in the home. He came home today and told me that an Asian boy in his class was telling him that if he received a grade lower than a 90, he would be in “big trouble.” My son said, “Me, too.” His friend smiled at him and said, “Why, she’s not Asian.”
By lynn d
August 30, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this
Okay Dana show me a HIGH School with let’s say over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and say 70 percent minority that is doing great. No elementary schools please… just high schools.
Look at City of Atlanta and DeKalb’s CRCT scores as compared to the SATs…
I am not saying it can’t happen… just show me one school that is playing by the rules (remember the high school a few years ago that only gave out its’ SAT code to certain students, not all of their SAT takers) that has a really challenging population, has a good number of SAT takers that has decent scores.
By lynn d
August 30, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this
Dana —
One more caveat — the school can’t be a magnet school that has admission requirements and allows the administrator to send students back to their home school for reasons of behavior or academic performance.
By jim d
August 30, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this
Equal Time.
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2007/08/29/equaled_0830.html
By Dana @ DOE
August 30, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this
Lynn d:
I will do this, but I just don’t have time to go through data today. Keep an eye on this space though and I will respond.
By Dana @ DOE
August 30, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
Ernest,
NCLB reauthorization really isn’t something we would hold hearings on. It’s a federal law and your Congressman or Senator is the best person to hold those meeting.
The Superintendent and State Board have put out a reauthorization statement with a wish list for changes.
Regarding your earlier comment about replicating SAT success…I’m not sure what you mean. Ultimately, SATs are the end of the game — you have to have a good curriculum and high expectations for students throughout their education. In the end, the SAT scores will reflect how well you did that.
By jim d
August 30, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Dana,
Not to seem argumentative but seems to me that the ACT might be a better measure of how good a job is being done. According to many sources the SAT is more of a measure of IQ. Way back in 04 prior to the release of the new SAT exam the Boston Globe did an article on this very thing.
http://www.boston.com/news/education/k12/articles/2004/07/04/thesat_tests/
By Dana @ DOE
August 30, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
You argumentative, Jim d? Never.
The ACT is a curriculum-based test, so it’s a better indication of how students learned the curriculum. The SAT is an — College Board hates this word — aptitude test. Essentially, how are they applying what they learned.
Either way, if you provide students with a strong curriculum and have high expectations, the Superintendent believes SAT scores and ACT scores will go up.
By holdingAJCaccountable
August 31, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this
THE best quote on the SAT scores belongs to none other than AJC sports writer Jeff Schultz. “…because not just anybody can follow a 46th-place ranking in SAT scores with a press release that begins: “Georgia’s 2007 high school seniors held their ground versus the nation on the SAT.” Dude, when you’re 46th, nobody’s challenging your ground.)”
Can Kathy Cox even spell SAT?