Get Schooled

By Jeff

August 20, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

You’re not doing yourself any favors with entries like this one which is just another propaganda article.

As far as your basic question goes, however: When colleges start emphasizing ACT scores over SAT, then you will see HS counselors/ students emphasizing ACT more. As things currently exist, however, SAT is king in probably 9 out of 10 college admissions departments. Therefore, SAT will be king in at least 9 out of 10 HS counselor departments…

By St. Mary's Too

August 20, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

I took both as I was applying to schools in Maryland (required SAT), and West Virginia (required ACT). No school in my county offered the ACT so I to go to UMBC to take the test. The math portions were similar, from what I can remember from 20 plus years ago but the English and Reading portions were different plus the ACT has science. The English on the ACT seemed to be more applicable than the SAT.

By Truth Filter

August 20, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Jeff…what exactly is the propaganda in this “article.” More kids are taking the ACT. How exactly is that up for interpretation?

Sigh…

By Jeff

August 20, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

TF:

I quote the second sentence from the next to last paragraph:

“According to the latest annual report from the test’s maker”.

OF COURSE the test’s MAKER is going to say that more and more students are taking the test! DUH! Advertising to Teenagers 101: Make them believe everyone else is doing it!

This is just like being a mouthpiece for Beverly Hall while many of the teachers that work for her are TELLING* Bridget that Hall is completely full of BS.

By Ernest

August 20, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff, while I can’t state this a fact, I understand more counselors are recommending students take the ACT. GA has an EXTREMELY large number of students that take the SAT who are not going to college. As a result, it has negatively impacted the scores for the state. While College Board and everyone else says we should not perform state to state comparisons of SAT scores, we all know people do. As a result, GA gets a bad rep nationally, because of low average scores.

A partial remedy is to suggest the ACT for students that may not have made the decision about college at that time. Those that have indicated/demonstrated they are going to college take the SAT. I understand several states are already doing something like this.

By JustMe

August 20, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

In the high school where I teach, students may take both to see which they score better on (these are the really good students).

Bridget - I have tried to be sympathetic to your work, but I am beginning to agree with others. You need to stop with the blogs on BS and hit topics of interest. Yes, this will require effort on your part other than reading some bull article and blogging on it. This blog has many active people on it, but if you keep this up, you will be driving us away.

By DB

August 20, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

My child took both. He had a good idea of where he wanted to apply, but wanted the ability to be flexible if he ended up with a college that required ACT. As it turns out, all but one of the 8 he applied to took either ACT or SAT. His take on the ACT: It was easier, but because it was shorter, a few bad answers would wreck you faster than on the SAT. After sitting for the grueling SAT marathon, he felt that the ACT two weeks later was almost a vacation. It turns out that his scores were in similar percentiles, so he really didn’t use one over the other. His comment was that if he had a choice between taking the ACT and the SAT, all things being equal, he’d skip the SAT — he got the same results with the ACT with much less angst and writer’s cramp!

By jim d

August 20, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Yo Bridget,

Here’s one with a bit of meat that is sure to fire up your bloggers.

Time Magazine aug 27

Are We Failing Our Geniuses?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1653653,00.html

By Stacey

August 20, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

I took the ACT which, at that time, was the only one given and accepted at the colleges where I applied (I went to hs in MS). Classmates who chose colleges requiring the SAT had to go 2 hours away to the nearest testing center. My husband went to hs in GA and took both because he was applying to colleges throughout the country and most took one or the other exclusively.

By Truth Filter

August 20, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

There’s no one questioning whether more kids are taking the ACT, especially in SAT states. They are. Georgia still has a lot of kids taking the SAT, but if I recall, it was DOWN last year.

Oh well. Not sure Bridget is really going out on a limb with this one.

By catlady

August 20, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Schools in some states prefer the ACT. More are flexible now, but some states have a much higher percentage taking the ACt.

I had my two oldest take the ACT in addition to the SAT because I knew the ACt would play to their strengths (reading) rather than math. When “translated” the ACT upped their SAT by hundreds of points. The younger (math/astrophysics graduate) I knew would fare better on the sAT with its heavier emphasis on quantitative skills, so she took only it.It depends on your child’s strengths. Way back in the day, I did very well on both, but perhaps a little higher on the “translated” ACT because it played to my verbal/reading skills.

I don’t think it is a conspiracy to get the lower-scoring kids out of the SAT pool, but it could be.

By Lisa B.

August 20, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Jim d., Great suggestion for a blog topic! I agree with much of the article. We’re failing our geniuses. The smart kids are actually the ones from which we’d get a return on our investment, yet we ignore them.

By Ernest

August 20, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

Catlady, I wouldn’t call it a conspiracy. It more of being more conscious of the impact. There is an economic impact based on standardized tests scores, specifically as it relates to housing.

I’ve spoken to a few HS counselors that admitted many students that were not ‘academically prepared’ took the SAT. Not sure why they didn’t take the PSAT instead. Nonetheless it affected the schools overall SAT average and perception.

By SET

August 20, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

The SAT test has been called a proxy for IQ testing. Colleges use it to keep dull people out of their programs.

It’s a pity IQ testing or it’s proxies aren’t used in the public secondary schools to protect their academic programs from being destroyed by the enrollment of low IQ students.

Except in San Francisco at Lowell High School. It’s a public “Ivy” High School that feeds to Ivy League Colleges by only enrolling the cream de la cream of HS students.

It would have been interesting if Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia and other American garden spots of diversity had the same policies as San Francisco. Just imagine, inner-city public school students across the nation still being competitive for Ivy League Colleges. Maybe decent families wouldn’t have had to flee the cities.

By HB

August 20, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure I understand what’s important about how many are taking what, but I will throw this out there. How important should test scores be in the admissions process? While these tests can be useful tools, it is also clear that a little tutoring on how to take the test (test strategy as opposed to subject matter) from expensive private firms can dramatically raise test scores. If that’s the case, how much weight should the tests be given as predictors of college success versus grades, class rank, etc?

By SET

August 20, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

There is an ongoing post mortem in law schools where the school gets print outs of which graduates passed the bar exam and which ones did not.

If the school gets too many graduates failing their accreditation is in danger. Like a hospital with too high a mortality rate on routine procedures.

By examining the application files on the winners and losers a profile of the winners is created.

Thereafter the schools admit people more like the winners and reject people who resemble the losers. After 15 or 20 years of this admissions officers darn well know that a candidate is clearly out, clearly in, or in the grey area. And as computer and statistical modeling becomes more powerful the grey area is smaller. Easily identifiable factors are used to sort the people, what undergrad school & major & GPA, and LSAT score.

Now if you get 22 to 1 applications to seats available, why let anyone in who is not a clear winner? I can think of several reasons. Zip code diversity, children of donors and prominent alumni, applicants of national or historical significance, a Playboy Centerfold, TV Star, whatever.

Throw in a limited amount of weeks to process all the applicants and make offers and an ever cheapening cost of computing (online applications are becoming mandatory) and it’s not too hard to create a class with a good odds of being admitted to practice.

To answer HB’s question - if the LSAT (in the instance of law school) predicts graduation and bar passage as well as I’ve heard it does, it is extraordinarily controlling at the high and low ends. Think of it as a credit score for a bank car loan. At a certain number it’s automatic approve, or dissaprove. In the middle somebody may have some discretion to judge. But as time goes on, the “middle” shrinks as the statistical models become stronger.

Why the model works is not important and one can only guess the true reasons. For awhile having a phone number listed in your name correlated with paying a loan on time. Not now. Having a gas company credit card correlates with lower car incurance claims. One can debate why that is so, but those without one are now charged higher car insurance premiums.

The schools, especially the professional schools, aren’t charities. They have something in mind when they admit a student. Success, not failure.

By catlady

August 20, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know how many more students take the SAT now in Georgia since HOPE “opened the eyes” of many students? Has it disproportionately increased? ( I suspect it has). That is, are more students, even marginal ones, thinking about going to college now than pre-HOPE, proportionately? Broadening the pool brings average scores down. Maybe if we “tighten up” admissions/HOPE, fewer marginal students will consider college, take the SAT, and our average scores will go up! Our previous chancellor, Portch, made an effort to make it more difficult to attend 4 year and research colleges by tightening the requirements. What happened with that? Of course, with grade inflation—which always happens at the OTHER schools—and no SAT minimum requirement for HOPE, some students appear more ready, only to crash and burn when they hit the more realistic world of college…..

By Jeff

August 21, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

I truly don’t understand why people seem to think the SAT is hard…

1) I took it for the first time in SEVENTH GRADE as part of Duke’s Talent Identification Program (nothing really special about it other than the fact that only about 10-15 kids from any given middle school get to take it). Scored a 980 in SEVENTH GRADE.

2) I took it for the last time in 10th grade (had taken it in 9th as well) and scored a 1290. IN TENTH GRADE. SURELY it can’t be THAT hard for a SENIOR.

3) My freshman scores were good enough to get me into KSU, and my sophomore scores only sealed the deal. Due to the way things worked out during sophomore and junior years, I would up as a junior at KSU when I walked across the state at HS graduation. Since I was already a junior, I didn’t bother looking for another school. So when it comes to the typical late junior/ senior year angst of getting in to a “good” school, I give the kids this advice: Get into a school through Joint Enrollment. Stay there. Have fun while the other kids your age are stressing about things that even 3 years from now won’t mean a hill of beans.

By jim d

August 21, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this

The kid took them both last year as a jr. did well enough to get into most schools. However, he will be taking them again this year to attempt to get them up to the standards of his first choice school. Seems the military academies hold to a higher standard than most colleges. Some of them require both.