Get Schooled

By Jeff

August 16, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Only when parents are forced to certify the raw product should teachers be forced to certify the results.

Until then, this is all meaningless hogwash.

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

I can see where people that have no clue about education would think that this is a good idea, but….

In reality, a teacher has no control over the type of student he/she gets. One semester they may have a class of smart and on-the-ball students. The next semester they may have a class of students that just don’t care about school and rarely even attend. Is that the teacher’s fault?

You can put a class of low students in front of the greatest teacher in the world and those student will not suddenly become stars. There are too many other variables completely out of the teacher’s control. Some of those variables include the student’s home life, the parents, etc.

Understand that I speak as a teacher with high performing students that score very well on all standardized tests. Does that make me a ‘great’ teacher necessarily? No. I realize that most of my students have a home life where their parents are on them every night to study and do homework.

On the flip side, a teacher should not be penalized for having low performing students.

The solution to all of this is simple. It requires an administration with a back bone to ‘call out’ the bad teachers. Everyone already knows who the bad teachers are. They are the ones that don’t teach. Their students run amuck while the teacher ignores them. It is the teacher that shows movies every day. The problem is that the administrators rarely have a back bone to begin the long process of getting rid of them.

By Janine

August 16, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Bridget….I think posting or making available test scores by teacher only tells one thing….which teachers had more of the low kids/ sp. ed and ESOL inclusion and which had the gifted higher kids. In order to have any value at all, the bar graph you mention must show PROGRESS based on pre tests and post tests. Most children on the low end of the test score spectrum will show some progress from the beginning to the end of the year. I once had a principal [before NCLB] who was only interested in this figure…..for example…the increase in scores ITBS scores from end of 5th grade to end of 6th grade.

By mmm

August 16, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

I agree that it is about the rate of student growth.

It is also about having the balls to reward what is working and punish what is not working. Political systems don’t do this well—in fact they are usually designed to ignore differences in the interest of being “fair” lest any single individual cry foul. Can you imagine a basketball or soccer game where in order to avoid all fouls the players were not allowed to come within 10 feet of each other? Well, it is certainly easier to pretend that all teacher are equal than to attempt to do something about the ones that aren’t. It works in a monopoly where the parents have no choice—-and especially in a community where the parents are passive and uninvolved.

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Bridget,

Another thing that bothers me about your topic, is that education really is unique. Teachers don’t make widgets. If we made widgets, then yes, one could impart quality control standards and display number of faults per widget per shift, and it would make perfect sense.

Teacher deal with people. And, not just people, but primarily children. People are as varied as the snowflakes… no two are alike. So, teachers cannot use the same thing for every class or for every student. In other words, there is also a sort of ‘art’ involved with teaching.

Can you put a grading scale on a piece of art? I would say not.

Teachers deal with so much more than strick content.

DeKalb County is moving towards forcing every teacher in a given class/grade to teach exactly the same for any given day. I guess I am okay with that…. but only if I, the teacher, am not penalized if my students fail. It is unfair for you to force me to go through YOUR motions and then blame ME if the students fail.

By Janine

August 16, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

JustMe RE: *”It is unfair for you to force me to go through YOUR motions and then blame ME if the students fail.” A big AMEN!!! Teachers are much more in touch with the students and in a much better position to know what might work than the educrats[[who haven’t been in a classroom for many years…and even then most didn’t spend much time there before they moved out…] and /politicians who are so far removed from everything practical !!!

By SET

August 16, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

People in hell want ice water.

The parents must think they are in private schools. This notion is a silly as the career criminal wanting to see the credentials of the deputy public defenders and then whining because his PD has a non-ABA law school degree (night school) and the DA is from UC or Stanford. That happens around here - also in reverse, then the victim/witness might feel bad they got a night school DA and the defendant has Clarence Darrow.

When these people are making their own decisions and paying for them, they can name their terms. Life isn’t always Priceline.Com.

Public Schools are the lowest common denominator. Kind of like Socialized Medicine. Gov’t Schools are not designed to provide custom services to the masses. That means “clients” don’t dictate terms to the teachers - or get to inspect the teacher’s goods.

The minute you allow such things to happen you will not have much time to teach anything. Besides - if the teacher’s credentials are not up to the liking of the parents does that mean the parents get to redirect the child to other teachers? Not in any public school I can imagine.

They must think their kids are in schools to actually be taught…

Brave New World.

By Mark

August 16, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

Ms. Downey’s suggestion is emblematic of the problem of letting non-educators make rules regarding schools. Her suggestion sounds so easy and wonderful, but it hasn’t taken into account very important information. Kids are different whether people want to believe that are not. Not all students have an IQ that is above average or even average. My point is that you can never compare the scores of two classes of students because the class make-up could never be equalized.

Imagine this scenario:

A community wants to decide who among several rec league coaches is superior at coaching basketball. The determining criteria is to evaluate how many kids on each team at the end of the season can dunk the ball. The coach of Team A drafted for height. His kids are all 6 feet tall or taller. The coach of Team B drafted smaller kids whom he regarded as being quick and good 3-point shooters. The coach of Team C wanted to actually teach kids the fundamentals. He took some 1st time players and even a kid in a wheelchair. The coach of Team D took a troubled kid from a broken home, a few first time players, a kid others said was uncoachable, and a young phenom.

At the end of the season all of Team A’s players could dunk, only 1 of Team B’s players, none of Team C’s and three of Team D’s.

Does that mean that the coach of Team A was the best coach?

Get the picture?

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

SET -

I would disagree with you. You lump all public schools into one category and you are simply wrong.

As I have said in the past (and you continue to ignore), there are some darn good public schools that do things ‘the right way.’ These are schools with supportive and knowledgable administrators that filter out the bad teachers and encourage the good ones. These are the schools that allow for teachers to teacher to the highest level of every students and not to teach to the lowest one.

It seems that there are fewer and fewer of these types of public schools in the Atlanta area, but they do exist.

By Old School

August 16, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

So where do I stand on teacher evaluations as a high school CTAE instructor? When I started here 32 years ago, the State of Georgia told me to prepare my students to enter the workforce with the skills required for the job. I was to individualize the instruction so the program would be open-entry…the kids would pick up where they left off if they had to skip a term. Assignments were to be adapted to each student’s needs and still meet industry standards.

Now I’m being told I have to teach my skills-based class just like the academic teachers do. Trouble is, they get an homogeneous group (age, grade)with everybody doing the same thing at the same time and I get grades 9-12, capable and merely placed, want to and couldn’t care less, with experience in each class ranging from first time to 8th semester and no two at the same place at any given time.

How do you judge my teaching ability? Neither the SAT nor ACT have anything relating to Engineering Drawing, Architecture, Solid modeling, or Design. All the performance standards to which ALL teachers are held seemed to be geared to academic teachers alone. I know that teaching is teaching and I WANT to be held accountable for the job I’m doing, but what measures will you use to determine how well I’m doing that job?

I’d really like to know.

(and for the record, I scored very well indeed on the NOCTI (architectural) even though I’m a technical drafter/cartographer)

By SET

August 16, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Just Me: Good to see you…

Yes when I speak of public schools I do refer to the urban schools and not Mayberry High. I went to an “Ivy” Public High School. I am well aware that the school was and is a freakish exception to norm in CA. At my High School reunions we say to each other that most of our children will never experience high school life as we did. Relatively few of my HS class can afford to live in the town we grew up in. And it’s gone from nearly no Asians and Jews and 3 black families in the entire HS (and some “middle class” whites), to over 50% Asian and Jews. The remaining whites there are on a treadmill nowadays - it’s tough to carry the mortgage and taxes on a minimum million dollar old house. Many of my classmates families (at least half) could not exist in the town we grew up in under the current economy. The ones with the multiple (mansions) homes and private jets are always going to be there.

CA is not a rational state. It’s a lifestyle.

I only know CA because I was born here, went to school through the Univ Of CA, and worked here all my life. Our urban public primary and secondary schools are collapsing into a 3rd World Tower of Babel. That I do know from friends & family who work in them and my own visits.

Families who enroll children in the CA urban schools are in no position to be picky on teacher qualifications. Their major concerns are physical safety followed by cultural damages, then education.

I have a relative transferring to Oakland Unified High Schools from Catholic schools due to parental inability to pay Catholic HS tuition any further. I worried about that and so are other relatives.

I wouldn’t think of helping pay the HS tuition. That bunch must learn the consequences of their behaviors/decisions and that includes their children living those consequences. No relative since the family arrived in CA in 1940 has ever gone to that school system. I know the stats for OUSD and I’m worried. We do support/have supported “that bunch” but it’s time for their feet to hit the ground.

It’s going to be interesting (shudder).

I’d really like the Oakland relatives to clear out of that town. They won’t leave their friends.

By DB

August 16, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

It’s one of those suggestions that is attractive and seemingly logical on the surface — but is totally impractical. Methinks someone has watched too many feel-good movies of teachers facing impossible odds with a quirky collection of underperforming kids, and thinks that EVERY teacher should be like that! (Well, if they were, they wouldn’t make movies of them, would they?)

If there is a test that a student must take that will be used to measure a TEACHER’S performance/pay/job retention, it stands to reason that a teacher will “teach to the test”. It’s called “survival”.

Teaching is an art form — and as tough as it is to face, not everyone is Picasso or Rembrandt. Some folks are just Joe the House Painter.

I come from a family of teachers and educators — which is probably why I had no desire to be one, I saw the c**p they had to put up with! My mom taught middle school math. One year she had one gifted class, two run-of-the-mill classes and two sub-performance classes. So, which scores are you going to take — the ones form the gifted class? Or the ones from the sub-perf. class?

These days, are you going to have adjustments for kids who are ESL? What about adjustments for those kids who have underperformed for the previous two years — why should their current teacher be blamed for inheriting two years worth of underperformance?

Turn it around — if a teacher’s pay/promotion/etc. is based on performance, what’s to stop a teacher with seniority from scraping off the cream of the upcoming class, and making a little deal with the principle to have Clueless Cindy assigned to the new teacher …?

By Blind Homer

August 16, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Hypocrite Jeff - When we talk about trackingor other methods for getting out the below average performers so the average and gifted can actually learn something, you argue that all the sutdents can be taught. But when the topic is evaluating teachers, you don’t want to be evaluated on well you teach the culls. Good thing you found another career.

By ironmaiden

August 16, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

Many administrators regularly obligate teachers to prove themselves. But too often they would rather continue to burden the entire faculty than remove a few poorly-trained calamities. I’ve experienced HS English teachers (and administrators) who did not speak standard English while instructing their students. How difficult is that to figure out. And shouldn’t it be a problem? The state of Georgia has a burdensome teacher certification process. Additionally, even veteran special ed teachers have been federally required to certify in all work-assigned subjects. They feel the angst of validating themselves over and over again. Teachers with HS reading classes are in an entirely different solar system than those who teach Magnet and AP. In the former group, years of chronic student absenteeism and emotional avoidance can often only be measured in baby steps. But the performance monkey is still on the backs of the teacher. I’m just wondering when some student groups will no longer have any educators. Teachers have enough of the limelight! Students, administrators and parents need to improve their accountability.

By Ernest

August 16, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

Interesting comments from Dr. Hall. While I do not begrudge any educator for doing what they feel is in the best interest of their own children, I have had conversations with others who wonder why some may choose to send their children to private schools. This is what I’m partially interpreting from her comments. Am I off base with this?

When I travel out of town and look for ethnic restaurants, I’m told to look for those in which they also have many customers from that group. Would a sign off a pretty good school be one in which teachers bring their children to be educated?

By Jeff

August 16, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

Blind:

There is no hypocrisy on my end. I CONSTANTLY say that it is STUDENT effort that determines whether or not the STUDENT will learn, and that the teacher has EXTREMELY little control of it.

CAN every student learn? Absolutely.

WILL every student learn? Based on my experiences in Newton and Randolph, I will say an EMPHATIC NO.

Should a teacher be judged (good or bad) based upon his/ her STUDENT’S actions? ABSOLUTELY NOT

As a teacher, and as a programmer, I have ZERO qualms about being held responsible for those things I can control. Student achievement - like me as a programmer trying to control what a fellow programmer does - is BEYOND the teacher’s control.

By jim d

August 16, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

How funny

Bridgett,

I know you didn’t really expect any teachers to agree with being judged on performance.

Did you??

We all know that Every teacher is a model educator and only performs to the highest level. Right?

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Earnest - To answer your question of, “Would a sign of a pretty good school be one in which teachers bring their children to be educated?” the answer is, not necessarily.

Parents (even teachers) pick schools for their children for various reasons. While one reason would be ‘good academics’, that is not the only reason. Some teachers want their child close to them. Some teachers may want their budding star football player to go to a school with great football tradition. Some teachers may want their child to go to a school where they are assured of ‘easy’ classes and therefore ‘easy’ grades to get into college.

I just don’t think that there is a single, universal, answer.

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

jim d

Have you even read any of the ‘teacher comments’ on this blog, or are you being your usual a$$?

By Blind Homer

August 16, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Jeff - Thanks for the comments. I agree there are some students that can’t be taught, but that doesn’t mean you can’t link student progress to teacher performance. Here’s an example you might agree with. Two weeks into 10th grade my daughter is dissatisfied with her AP History teacher. She says, “she’s telling us about her summer vacations to Colorado and Italy (apparently not all teachers spend the summer on study plans and advanced degrees!).” At the end of the year there’s one 3, three 2’s and the rest 1’s on the AP exam (1 to 5 with 1 being the lowest). You don’t have to consider the class mix, this is AP and they’re all above average in intelligence and most of them in motivation. And you don’t have to sit is class all year to realize she didn’t teach the material or prep her students for the AP exam format. She’s incompetent, and all you need to do is look at her AP exam scores. But she’s teaching AP History again this year because most public schools do nothing about incompetent teachers.

By Blind Homer

August 16, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

jinm d - About 1 in 5 is borderline or worse, but that 20% doesn’t care enough to be on this blog.

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

jim d-

You are so smart. Let’s see what you would do, and how you would feel….

Pretend that you teach 3rd grade. The State of GA says that you must teach specific standards and that your students must pass the CRCT by the end of the year.

You have 25 students. Of those 25 students, 5 do not speak English, 12 did not pass 2nd grade but were passed on any way, and 3 never even passed 1st grade but still have been passed on (and cannot read or write). However, you are still held accountable for each of them passing the 3rd grade CRCT test.

In addition, your boss (the school system) says that you must teach specific content each week and cannot get behind - translation, you have to march forward regardless whether the student ‘gets it.’

Also, of those 25 students in your class, you are already aware that 3 of them are homeless and don’t have food (eat breakfest), 10 of them are from single parent households where the parent really doesn’t have time to properly raise the child, and 5 of them have documented learning and/or behavioral disabilities.

Do you think that your ability as a teacher would matter at all in this case (get the 25 kids to pass the CRCT)? Please be honest - I would love to know your answer.

By JustMe

August 16, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

Blind Homer -

I agree that most public schools do nothing about incompetent teachers. However, I do disagree with some of what your wrote.

First, any student can take an AP class. Just because a student is in an AP class does not mean that they are smart or that they are motivated. In fact, most schools are pushing for more and more kids to take AP for the ‘experience.’

Second, as an adult you should know not to believe 100% of what any child says. If you really thought that your childs AP History teacher was poor, it was your job to go to the school and ask to sit in on one of the classes to see for yourself.

Finally, it is hard to find good AP teachers, period. AP classes are college level classes that are taught in high school. While good high school teachers may teach high school level well, that doesn’t mean that they will be good AP teachers - it is a different animal. I am aware that AP History is a particularly difficult AP class, in any case.

By OldSchool

August 16, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

jim dear, I have NEVER been opposed to being evaluated on my performance in the classroom…NEVER. Not even when our faculty was evaluated 5 times during the school year (once by each administrator) plus the end of year summary evaluation. I understand the concept of being accountable to parents, administration, students, school boards, newspaper reporters, and taxpayers. I understand that and I don’t have a problem with being evaluated.

Just be fair. Right now, we are evaluated with a checklist of “things” that must be displayed on our walls or marker boards: essential questions, word walls, writing prompts, you name it. I don’t even have a problem with that so much but I truly don’t understand how it evaluates my ability to produce competent technical or architectural drafters.

I have an open door policy that many contractors, civil engineers, home owners, taxpayers, parents, administrators, public servants, and others exercise at least weekly. Stop by ANYTIME and see what is going on in any of my classes.

Admins know who is teaching effectively and who isn’t. They also know who would be difficult to remove from the classroom and why.

I just want a fair method of evaluating each teacher and what we have now doesn’t seem all that fair, ie: student performance on a standardized ACADEMIC test or two.

So c’mon down and visit my classroom anytime, you don’t even have to let me know in advance. Evaluate me with your own checklist/rating scale/meter/yardstick. Maybe I’ll measure up and maybe I won’t. Just be fair.

By Jeff

August 16, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

Blind:

The SECOND a student says he/she doesn’t like a teacher, I begin to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt in any criticism the student may have.

In particular the Colorado trip, it could be that this teacher went and saw many of the historic locations in CO, which would actually be applicable in a US History class, regardless of whether it was on the test or not.

Believe it or not, touring Italy also has US History implications, both with the Mob and related issues as well as immigration and WWII, to name a couple.

Bottom line: Those students should have worked harder, regardless of whether this teacher truly was a “bad” one or whether she was a truly great one that your daughter just didn’t like.

By catlady

August 16, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

SET: Is the state of California a state of mind? The state of GA is the state of denial!!!

One thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned before is that the tests we use are not very good tests. They don’t do a good job of measuring much of anything. Secondly, and more importantly, we have VERY little control over whether our widgets (children) give their best effort. Unlike widgets, whose makeup can be described to the nth tolerance, our kids vary markedly from day to day on the reliabilty of their output. We cajole, push, cheer, etc., but we are at the mercy of their whims (or how bad their morning has been) as to whether they really put effort into the tests they take, or just randomly mark answers. When you cannot accurately and reliabliy measure the learning that has taken place, how could that possibly be a source of information about teacher efficacy?

In my county, because NO ONE is held back, students have NO incentive to make an effort. And, in fact, with some BD kids, the incentive is to do as poorly as you can just to mess with the teacher!

Please, let’s stop with the stupid ideas on measuring teachers until you can do it with some degree of accuracy! It is true that we have little influence on the input (raw materials) as others have said before, but we have little ability to measure the output correctly, either!

By HB

August 16, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, you nailed it. I absolutely believe teachers should be evaluated and held accountable for their actual job performance, not just final results. As you stated, the evaluation should measure teaching skills, not focus on word walls and other classroom micromanagement policies. Results do matter, but student test scores should not be the primary indicator because as JustMe pointed out, sometimes kids come in 2 or 3 years behind. By the same token, kids sometimes come in ahead too.

I attended an excellent elementary school with very high test scores, but there was one terrible teacher for 3rd grade whose students suffered essentially a “lost” year. Her students’ progress slowed compared with their 2nd grade test scores, but they still tended to be meet the standards set. Based on test scores, it was impossible to make a case for firing her despite her horrible performance. Just as a good teacher can be blamed for problems that arose before he/she ever meets a kid, a bad teacher can be rewarded for successes primarily due to previous teachers.

Careful evaluation of teacher performance is a must, but it has to look at the big picture — not just the most recent set of test scores or ability to post educrats’ latest miracle cure on a bulletin board.

I think Rhode Island was on the right track a few years ago. The state began sending task forces of community members, parents, teachers on sabbatical, principals, state board members, etc. to thoroughly examine schools. Each school was evaluated over a period of several weeks every 2-3 years. The group observed classes, met with teachers and administrators, talked to students in the hall and just generally tried to get an overall view of each school. The program had its critics, but the goal of trying to put together a comprehensive evaluation of a school with follow up on specific areas for improvement was far better than focusing on test scores alone as an indicator of school performance.

By Lisa B.

August 16, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

There are some great posts on this issue so far. I agree that teachers have no control over the “quality of the product” we begin with each year. I am fully willing to be judged on the gains my students make. I’ve had some children who just don’t seem to have what it take mentally to pass the TEST, but still make lots of improvement. The amount of improvement doesn’t count. I’ll tell you from experience that it takes a lot more work to get that struggling learner to make gains than the effort needed regular and high students. For example; 800 is the passing score for the CRCT in grades 1-8. I’ve had children move from a score of 756 to 796 in one year. Others moved from 830 to 832. Which should be the more impressive gain? The efforts of the teacher and child with the 796 don’t even count. He still failed the test.

Stupid ideas like the ones mentioned in the article above merely cause the best teachers to abandon the neediest students. No one understands that. A child is more than a test score.

By Blind Homer

August 16, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

JustMe - Some good points although I don’t think just anyone gets in AP classes at this school. I do agree she might be fine, just not a good AP teacher. Jeff - There have been several she didn’t like. The first time I asked her why the answer was, “she’s tough”. I told her that sounded like a good teacher to me. After three years of gifted Lit with her in middle school my daughter wound up thinking she was the best teacher she ever had! I don’t think this was personality or teaching style, the specific complaint was she didn’t teach the material. However, as JustMe pointed out, I should have gone and seen for myself. And I do tell her not all teachers will please her, its her job to make the best of whatever situation she’s in. Although all of you point out how difficult and unfair most measurements are, I don’t hear any of you saying there aren’t any incompetent teachers that stay in the schools.

By Tony

August 16, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this

Currently, the assessments used by the state of Georgia are not designed to tell educators or parents how much a student has learned during a school year. Until the CRCT can tell us that, posting results by teacher will not reveal the message you think. The current testing craze is doing much more harm to the education of children than many want to admit. Politicians are proud of the “accountability” programs they have put in place. When confronted with the facts of how the curiculum is narrowing their response is the same old tired refrain, “Schools are failing our children!” It is time for parents and teachers to join together to undo the mess created by politicians!

By jim d

August 16, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Ok, so an electrican/plumber etc. doesn’t do his job—he’s fired

A doctor fails at his and gets sued and may loose his license

An attorney doesn’t do it right and they may loose the priviledge to practice law.

A teacher screws up and they get transfered to another school.

So y’all tell me what is fair.

By Tony

August 16, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

Maureen should be ashamed of herself for the claims made in her editorial. Teach for America has no credible evidence of successfully raising student achievement. Her diatribe simply panders to the current politically popular attitudes about public education. Other points regarding the use of pre/post testing that she makes are useless. We do not have valid assessment instruments to produce the kinds of analyses she touts. She is right that teachers can make the difference, but she is very wrong to imply that other educators simply whitewash over the poor teachers. Surely, the AJC staff can do much better.

By jim d

August 16, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this

Old school,

at the risk of repeating myself,The solution is simple. Abolish NCLB

I will totally agree that teachers shouldn’t be judged on a couple of tests results that their students have earned anymore than the students should be judged on those same test results. But until that changes? Well?

By SET

August 16, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

The San Francisco Chronicle just published a special section today with the reading scores for the entire SF Bay Area schools. It shows the percentage of students at each school that read at grade level.

SF for all it’s liberal crazyness maintains one actual school called Lowell High where any city resident can try to be admitted based on academic competitiveness.

SF Lowell High School - the citywide academic “admission by application only” public school came in at 94% (Of 11 graders reading at grade level or above) up from 93% last year. Oakland High School in the East Bay’s OUSD came in at 20% down from 27% the previous year. Richmond High School has a score for the 11 graders of 13% reading at grade level.

The Oakland district all 11th grader Avg is 20% and SF Unified came in at 48%, again citywide avg for all 11th graders (reading at grade level). Some of the individual Primary and Secondary schools in the Bay Area had numbers for reading as low as zero to nine percent reading at grade level.

The rest of these failure academies should not be legally allowed to use the word “School” in their name.

Brave New World.

By Janine

August 16, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

LisaB ..RE: “I am fully willing to be judged on the gains my students make. I’ve had some children who just don’t seem to have what it take mentally to pass the TEST, but still make lots of improvement. …”

IMHO, this is the only way, and the fairest way to assess a teacher’s effectiveness. Once in Dekalb, and only at my middle school, Reading was taught as a core subject [thanks to the wisdom of our principal ahd area director]…I taught reading [again, before the days of NCLB, checklists, word walls, etc.]. There was a pre-test given at the beginning of the year, and a post test given the same students at the end of the year. Virtually ALL STUDENTS showed improvement! There is no teaching to the test, just plain old reading instruction….lots of reading, reading , reading. Of course, the educrats dumped the class even though there were convincing scores and testimonials of the wisdom of the class.

By lynnd

August 16, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

I have seen some of the Gainesville model in action and what struck me was how the class groupings must ge all very similar. With very few exceptions, there were not many differences on the pre-test scores — that is the range of scores in each class was very similar.

So, I suspect, at least at the school I visited, it would be hard to argue that one teacher had a significantly better or worse class than another (barring behavior problems of course).

In most cases, the students made similar gains… but what struck me, at least at the school I visited was how unimpressive the gains were. No students blew the lids of the post test — not one in any class and this disturbed me. In order to save the public education system in America, we must stop settling for mediocrity.

By OldSchool

August 16, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

Okay, jim dear. I’ve got my sleeves rolled up and my sternest, most “git-r-done” face on. Just how do I ABOLISH NCLB? I vote (after carefully considering the pool of choices) and yes, I do believe my vote counts. The truth is NCLB is here until the next fix-du jour is trotted out. It’s what we have to work with, under, toward.

In just the past 2 days, I’ve had 3 students bail out of my drafting class and into art or PE because my class was “too hard.” All we’ve done so far is review the parts of an INCH and work on 3-4 very basic drawings that consist of horizontal and vertical straight lines. These are not slow children or special needs. These are the kids of prominent folks and they just don’t want to do the work. Good grief! The equipment practically does the drawing for them but they do have to think a little and follow instructions.

At the same time, a kid with severe vision problems turned in a drawing that was pretty darn close to industry standards. This after he complained that I shouldn’t expect much of him. I countered that he needed to expect much MORE from himself and by golly we were both delighted with his work. I’m gonna keep on doing what I do and let the evaluations fall where they may.

Abolish NCLB? That might happen or might not. In the meantime, I venture to guess that there are far more competent caring teachers out there than crummy ones. For parents who think otherwise, just remember the “truths” you used to tell your own parents and take what your student is telling you with a grain of salt. You owe it to your self and your student to be vigilant and involved.

By Lisa B.

August 16, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

SET, the statistic you shared are horrible. I am fully willing to be accountable for my share, but lousy educators alone are not completely responsible for the dismal stats cited above. Neither can good, or even great teachers, take all the credit for highly successful students.

Yes, teachers can really help, or really hurt a child. The lousy teachers need to go. I agree. However, every teacher, no matter how great, cannot be the perfect teacher for every child they teach. We try hard. Still, we’re human. We’re not perfect. I just don’t think test scores alone can determine which teachers are the best (or the worst).

By Tony

August 16, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Two things -

SET’s score reports reflect the communities where the schools are located. Good teachers tend to leave these schools because of the lack of commitment from the students, parents and communities. Teachers cannot single-handedly turn around schools like the ones cited in his report.

OldSchool reports another very real reflection of a family’s commitment to education - leaving a class because the teacher expects the student to actually work and learn. These problems are not created by the schools but by the communities that do not teach children to value the educational opportunities.

By kaab

August 16, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

This is one rare occassion that I agree with Jeff. Guess what world? Children are human not some perfect raw material. There is a lot that goes into educating and raising a child. The total burden should not be on teachers. I wish teachers could give parents a report card.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

August 16, 2007 7:09 PM | Link to this

Before Beverly Hall addresses “teacher quality” why won’t Bridget address ANY of the following with Dr. Hall?

-Beverly Hall was quoted in the paper a few years back saying that her “reform” reduced 3rd grade failure rates from 55% to 25%. What she didn’t tell the AJC was that third grade teachers got a memo saying a child had “met the criteria for promotion” if their reading level was 3.0-meaning third grade zero month.

In essence, she dumbed down the standard by one full year, and still 25% of the kids failed. Maybe Bridget can ask her how that’s success…or even honest?

After that Paul Donsky did a story on how 5 schools had the percent of kids pass the CRCT jump fifty percentage points in only one year. The only board member who was a teacher said “there is no way these scores are legitimate”. Why didn’t the AJC allow Donsky to do a follow up? (NO way in Hades does a reporter ignore such a follow up unless the higher ups-such as Downey- who want to protect APS officials prevent him from following up)

APS officials also turned in reports that 40 (yes 40) schools had ZERO discipline problems. 40 inner city schools and NOT a single discipline problem? And what did Asst. Supt. Kathy Augustine tell the AJC? “We think are reforms are working so well, perhaps there are no discipline problems to report”. Baghdad Bob couldn’t have even pulled that one off without laughing!

At the point that Maureen Downey would let statement that is beyond the bounds of ANY credibility pass through the editorial board without ANY negative comment is the point where Maureen Downey lost any and all credibility to comment on “teacher quality”

Maybe Maureen Downey ought to disclose her friendships with APS employees in the interest of “full disclosure” before she goes out of her way to bash teachers.

And sure, there are some bad ones, but why does Downey never, EVER write of “administrator quality” especially considering some of the points listed above?

And if Downey is REALLY interested in “teacher quality” maybe Downey and the AJC would consider FINALLY writing at least ONE editorial on the discipline problems in the schools.

Maybe when teachers are no longer physically assaulted without consequence you’ll see that increase in “quality” that you are looking for.

Of course Bridget will address none of this…her job is too important to her to actually do any REAL reporting.

Let’s not forget that this is the same Bridget who STILL refuses to deal with the issue that the previous Get Schooled moderator was willing to tackle: How South Atlanta reported ZERO major disciplinary problems but the Atlanta Police records show they came to the school over FIFTY times for cases such as assault and battery.

Bridget’s lame excuse: the APS beat writer is on leave. Seems this has NEVER prevented Bridget from shilling for APS or from throwing teachers under the bus for issues whose root cause is lack of ADMINISTRATIVE resolve.

The AJC’s circulation numbers show the AJC is losing relevance every day. Is it no wonder with “reporting” (I use the word loosly in the AJC’s case) like this.

Meanwhile Creative Loafing is growing. I guess that’s what REAL reporting gets you.

By It's not true!

August 17, 2007 8:25 AM | Link to this

Dr. Hall said of poorly-performing teachers - “…If you can’t get them to change — after you’ve worked with them and developed them — and they just cannot do it, then you need to think about what you need to do to get quality teachers into your classrooms.”

Nice quote, but big lie. APS will NEVER rid of a teacher for being poorly-performing. There are too many to count. Due to the bureaucracies they themselves have created, they cannot fire a teacher as so. Also, they are just plain lazy and scared.

I taught for Atlanta for years. I had too many colleagues to count who could not use basic grammar. One could barely write a simple sentence, yet she had a degree from Clark Atlanta. When I asked why someone who could not write a basic sentence could teach children, they said they had a soft spot for her b/c she was the first in her family to get out of the projects. These soft spots have ruined the kids of Atlanta.

Yes, any idiot can get a teacher’s certificate. There are many w/in APS who I would not let go near my child in an educational setting.

I see what Dr. Hall’s saying. I agree completely. But, it’s all talk. She would NEVER fire a teacher for incompetencies.

Did you notice in the quote, she’s not offering to help the principals? She’s putting it on them, and they actually themselves do NOT have that power. No way.

Oh - in APS, I also taught w/ a woman who had failed the teaching exam SEVEN times. She did NOT have a teaching certificate, yet APS paid her a full teacher’s salary for the 3 years I was at this school b/c the downtown office hadn’t noticed!!! So, they’re going to get rid of teachers who can’t teach, but they don’t even know who is really a teacher on paper?? PLEASE!

By Jeff

August 17, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

For once, WWBD has a point - sort of.

Parents and politicians make a big deal out of TEACHER quality.

A line from “Remember the Titans”: Attitude reflects leadership, Captain.

You can’t have a REAL discussion on teacher quality without having a REAL discussion on both admin AND parent quality.

By jim d

August 17, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Old School,

I don’t believe we can really pin this on teachers as much as teaching a standard curriculum to students that have different learning styles.

Public school teachers to in fact have a scripted curriculum that they are forced to teach to. You good teachers manage to do this while still reaching a vast majority of students. However there are still those that are left behind and the sad truth is that there are many more that don’t reach their fullest potential. This scenario even worsens when we have a teacher that is, shall we say, less then exemplary? (and yes a few do exist)

An interesting article appeared back in July that sort of touched on learning styles.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204181,00.html?sPage=fnc.national/education

As for NCLB and what everyone of us can and should be doing is not waiting for the next election cycle. We need to flip those sleeves up one more fold and keep writing our legislators in regards to concerns and effects this policy is having on our youth. We need to keep the discussion alive at local BOE meetings, at staff meetings and even when talking to our neighbors. We (parents, teachers and the media) can change this if we simply refuse to let it go.

By jim d

August 17, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

its NT,

What is true is that a certificate doesn’t make one a teacher.

By It's not true!

August 17, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

“….How South Atlanta reported ZERO major disciplinary problems but the Atlanta Police records show they came to the school over FIFTY times for cases such as assault and battery. Bridget’s lame excuse: the APS beat writer is on leave.” Uh, duh, do the story when he/she returns???

That’s true??? That’s pathetic!!! She should NOT have a job.

Maybe the Creative Loafing WOULD cover that. I would LOVE to see that in writing.

I have noted that CONSISTENTLY, Bridgit caters to APS and tries to “rose them up” in her work. NEVER has she been honest speaking about the Atlanta school system. This isn’t reporting - it’s catering. She should be fired if she cannot be balanced. Or, she should admit that she cannot write any honest pieces regarding Atlanta b/c of connections, and then only write about the others. Of course, that’s wasteful, so she should be replaced.

I am glad I ran into this post so I know for sure now how unfair and biased she is. However, she’s our education reporter, and this makes me sick to my stomach. A system exists which is extremely corrupt and wasteful, and it KNOWS that the education reporter won’t touch it. No fears, no corrections made! It will go on and on b/c of her help.

Patti wasn’t like that! Whatever happened to her, by the way?

We need someone new. Someone who won’t drop the ball on good, honest stories. The AJC once upon a time began a series on schools not reporting discipine incidences. Then, the stories just disappeard. Bridgit would NEVER look into this. Way too weak and biased, I agree.

By jim d

August 17, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

It’s NT,

one other thing that is true.

Advertising dollars drive the news. When a Chamber of Commerce starts threatening to withold their advertising dollars the media caves in. They’re not stupid.

By Lee

August 17, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Regarding teacher quality, JustMe nailed it in her (his?) very first post when she said “Everyone already knows who the bad teachers are… The problem is that the administrators rarely have a back bone to begin the long process of getting rid of them.”

That is true also in the business world. One of my biggest pet peeves is the lack of effective performance management by a supervisor to his subordinate. It’s unfair to the employee, it’s unfair to the co-workers, and it’s unfair to the company. It’s also unfair to the supervisor, but he doesn’t recognise it as such.

Let’s face it, dealing with a poor performing employee is hard work. And in today’s litigious society, it’s hard work to fire them. But, it is something that you MUST do as a manager. One or two bad apples in a work group can poison your entire work force. I’ve seen it happen time and time again.

It’s funny, back in the 60’s, my mother was an elementary school teacher. She has some college, but no degree. She was good with kids and that seemed to be the focal point back then.

Today, we have Phd’s sitting in a first grade classroom. Certification for this. Certification for that. And yet, what I read on this blog is that it matters little - a teacher’s effectiveness is dependent upon how “good of a class of students” they get.

Finally, Ernest touched on this subject earlier, but when you see public school teachers pulling their kids out and placing them in private school, that should send up all kinds of warning bells and lights. I know. My wife is a public school teacher and we placed our daughter in a private school to get her away from our “middle school from he11.”

By JustMe

August 17, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

jim d- Noticed that you completely avoided my post and question for you. Figures. You just don’t have an answer, just a lot of complaining in you.

By anonymous

August 17, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Gainesville City Schools has had serious civil rights violations— that ought to tell you something— and have been issued a consequence by the Federal OFfice of Civil Rights through the US dept of ed.

That ought to tell you something

By jim d

August 17, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Good point Lee,

We too noticed how poorly our middle schools were prepared to deal with students at this age and opted for a private school during those years.

This proved to be the smartest move I’ve ever made. He was much better prepared to enter public high school, and has done quite well. Let me note though that we are down to just 181.5 days left. (but who’s counting?)

By Lee

August 17, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

A couple more things, most people don’t care, or even consider, teacher quality. As long as they see their kids getting A’s and B’s, they think their teacher is great.

High School Principals know one thing. There is only one group that can motivate a bunch of parents to fill a School Board meeting to capacity. They know that they have to keep this one group happy or they will lose their job very quickly. Individual parents matter little.

Who is that group, you ask?

The Athletic Booster Club.

By jim d

August 17, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

just me.

Do you think that your ability as a teacher would matter at all in this case (get the 25 kids to pass the CRCT)?

Since you put it that way, “matter at all” then I must respond in the affirmative. Yes my ability to teach in this scenario would matter to those that want to learn. As for getting 100% passage? The realist in me says it won’t happen.

By Lisa P

August 17, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

I enjoyed reading your article and great choice on the topic. We need not just good teachers and engaged parents, but GREAT teachers and parents that are accountable for what kids learn. We really need to start thinking about seriously providing an education platform where kids can truly learn so they can be prepared to succeed and compete at a global level

I just found this article about Atlanta Public Schools that I thought I’ll share. Enjoy! Lisa

Connecting the Dots: Kids to Business by Jennifer Bouani http://boujepublishing.wordpress.com/

I’m all for schools and businesses working together to connect the dots for students to know how to compete in a global workforce. We do need to work to better meld the two entities. In the Atlanta Business Chronicle, Tim Hough writes about an initiative going on between Atlanta Public Schools and Atlanta businesses (Atlanta Business Chronicle, Jun 1-7) to do just such a thing. Beverly Hall, the superintendent, is working to fully reform the public school system to connect the dots in the disciplines of engineering, health sciences and research. But I think the focus may be misguided.

China and India are generating baskets-full of engineers and researchers. On sheer numbers, America cannot compete. But what has America always been good at (besides war)? Creating businesses!–tapping into our entrepreneurial spirit and paving new roads, new industries and new technologies. Who would have imagined Google or Amazon 15 years ago?

But are we forgetting where we came from? The Kauffman Foundation just reported that immigrant entrepreneurial activities are outpacing those of native-born Americans. While it increased for Asians and Latinos, it stayed steady for non-Latino whites and even fell for blacks. Where are our entrepreneurs? Who will create the next Microsoft?

Although I admire Hall for her courage to tread new ground, I wish school systems would focus their attention on teaching kids how to RUN businesses, not be employed by them.

Kauffman Foundation Study: http://www.kauffman.org/items.cfm?itemID=861

By JustMe

August 17, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Lisa P - I am not sure that I agree with you about K-12 should teach kids how to RUN businesses. There is so much basic content to learn (and the kids today are not learning it) that I would hate to sacrifice the basics for business learning that they could/should get at business school.

IMHO, if a student in K-12 wants to RUN a business, they first must master the content in K-12 and THEN go on to a business school in college. That is why the business school is there.

I fear that APS (and some other school systems) are confusing students by starting high schools that claim to be things like engineering high schools, or medical high schools. That is just bunk, IMHO. Standard subject classes should be rigorous enough to prepare K-12 students for any college/university - elite or otherwise.

By Lee

August 17, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

Lisa P, I would be happy if they could come out of high school able to balance a check book.

Maybe as a bonus, they would have the ability to evaluate lease vs. buy, and why that “0%” interest on that new car really isn’t.

By Carmen

August 17, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

There is no easy answer, but I do find it interesting that many who demand “accountability” and “no excuses” for children in the education system, have a problem with being measured by the same rod.

For the past few years Georgia has retained thousands of students for NOT passing the CRCT, yet when the shoe is on the other foot they cry foul?

The Highly Qualified Teacher provisions of NCLB have been conveniently delayed and waived for teachers, but the students didn’t get this option. The students paid the price and to top it all off their parents had NO voice in the matter. There we go again - Do as I say, not as I do. Expecting something of our children, the adults refuse to expect of themselves.

Not that I think most teachers are given a fair deal either. They too have their hands tied and are given misinformation and don’t realize it.

IMHO, the problem is mostly with administration and the educational leaders in Georgia. Why can’t we hold the Superintendants and educational leaders accountable before we point the finger at the teachers, students and parents?

As for the comments regarding Gainesville City School’s readily available information. Well how about you ask them how many discipline referrals they had for African American students the year NCLB was implemented? 800+ when there were only 200+ African American students in the middle school.

You may also want to ask them if they were found guilty by the United States Department of Education Office for Civil Rights for violating the Civil Rights and discriminating against students suspected of having disabilities?

You can also ask if the Super has ever provided erroneous information in a federal complaint and investigation by the US DOE Office of Civil Rights, which caused an investigation to be closed as a result only to find out that his claims were less than reliable.

or if they wrongfully tried to prosecute a parent for Compulsory Attendance on a student they expelled?

Oh, and I shouldn’t leave out asking the Super his opinion if education is a right or a privledge?

I bet that information is NOT anywhere on their website either. If you have any problems getting to it let me know, as I would be happy to provide you with copies.

Back to accountability - yes, it would work but you have to be able to rely on the accuracy of the data and who provides the data?

It amazes me how people rely on the data they are given, without realizing the data is useless. As long as we have the Fox in charge of the hen house - we can forget about “accountablity”, “transparency”or fixing the problems in Georgia’s Public Education System.

Any school can make AYP if they expel, withdraw or get rid of students they don’t want by conveniently funneling them into the juvenile justice system. One only needs to look at the numbers in the school to prison pipeline to realize something isn’t right with the data. Oh, and I have that too - see how many students are coded as “transferred” in many of these schools that met AYP.

The Education Math Miracle in Texas comes to mind…

www.educatemericanetwork.org

By Lisa P

August 17, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

JustMe-

I understand your argument. But think about it this way, these kids have 2 choices in life either work for someone and that includes profit and non-profit (churches, charities etc… run businesses) or they are to innovate, create jobs, and their own success. The danger is we have all been indoctrinated and imbued that life should follow this path: we need to go to school get good grades so we can get accepted to a better school, then to the best college etc… so finally we can get a good JOB, max out credit cards and most of the time never be independent, always relying on the system that dictated this path in the first place .

While that path has worked in the last century, we are facing a global workforce full of passion, hunger, and desire to succeed. Not only do we need now to raise the education bar and really teach these kids, but I also believe we need to educate kids in business concepts after all that’s where they eventually are going to end up and spend 3/4 of their lives.

Why do we think that kids are not going to be able to grasp the concept of business if we as EMPLOYED adults, parents, educators, and community leaders…. do not take risks and most of us have never owned a business nor do we fully understand the workings of one.

I believe that this is the right time to break the cycle since our global competitors have already taken the lead.

When kids are introduced to the concept of entrepreneurship early on in life, not only would they make better critical decisions, be able to innovate, create, and get a glimpse of REAL LIFE, but also make the BEST EMPLOYEES (if they chose not to own businesses), because when they graduate from college and their resume makes it to the hiring managers, most likely they will be chosen over all other candidate, since companies run businesses and they would love people that understand them.

By Lisa P

August 17, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Lee- I can’t agree with you more, please read my response to Just me.

By Jeff

August 17, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Is it just me, or do we seem to be attracting less quality and more conspiracy theorists these days???? (Lisa P, Carmen, etc)

By jim d

August 17, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

In reality your plan has a simple flaw. Over-qualified!

I have many friends unemployed right now that have had to dumb down their resume’s because they truly are over-qualified for the positions available. My god, with your plan we’d have even more over-qualified applicants for these jobs.

By not again

August 17, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Apostrophes are not for plurals. If they’re writing ‘resume’s,’ they’re probably UNDER-qualified!

By Lisa P

August 17, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Jim-

So what now, they are going to sit and wait instead of continuing to fight. Maybe this is a good time for them to start a business, Oh hold on, they may not know how to start one and they probably think it will take LOTS of money to start one, or maybe they have invested too much in their careers. Have they been introduced to the concept early on, they won’t need to apply for jobs now, they will create one and create a product or service that those companies that turned them down will be happy to buy.

By JustMe

August 17, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Lisa P -

Okay, fine. Let’s see YOU try to teach business to a 10th grader that still doesn’t have the basics. A student that cannot do simple math, must less basic algebra. A student that has no idea what an atom is. A student that has the vocabulary of a 5th grader.

My point is that the K-12 education for the most part is to teach the basics of the subjects. If you want to throw out one of more of the basics, what do YOU think will happen?

I am all for K-12 teaching of basic computer skills (most middle class and upper class kids already know this), etc. But, I feel that trying to teach them corporate finance, human resources, etc. would be plain silly….. most cannot even spell ‘corporate!’

By JustMe

August 17, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

Carmen -

As a teacher, I have no problem with being evaluated. But please, evaluate me on MY performance and NOT the students performance. I have ZERO control on the ability of the students when they walk through my door. I have ZERO control on their life outside of school (do they work 40 hours per week). I have ZERO control of their motivation.

I just don’t think that you could find a single teacher anywhere that would be fine if you come up with a way to evaluate ME. Just don’t evaluate someone else and blame me! That would be like blaming a dentist because one of his patients that never brushes his teeth gets cavities!

In addition, school systems are moving towards forcing teachers to do standardized lessons each and every day. Are you going to tell me that if I do what my school system forces me to do, and then my students fail, it is MY fault? How stupid is that?????

By jim d

August 17, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

That is not the point.

I’ve been with the same company for 40 years, 20 as the owner and can assure you that many people don’t care to be in business for themselves. They prefer the security of a check every week. I don’t see that changing so let’s teach some trades and practicle skills and allow those that wish to own a business to do so and those that don’t—not to.

Since people are, in my opinon, either born leaders or followers, I don’t think this is something that needs to be pushed at the high school level. But hey—that is merely my opinon.

Have a great weekend!

By jim d

August 17, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

just me,

“In addition, school systems are moving towards forcing teachers to do standardized lessons each and every day. Are you going to tell me that if I do what my school system forces me to do, and then my students fail, it is MY fault? How stupid is that?????)

I’d say bout as smart as judging a student on a test of materials he hadn’t been taught.

OH WAIT, we do that don’t we?

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

August 17, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

So Bridget wants to give a forum to Beverly Hall to make excuses for APS by blaming the about “quality of teachers”. Maybe if Bridget was sujected to some of the same memos that teachers are subjected to by ADMINISTRATORS, she’d start being a reporter and stop being a shill.

“This ARE the list of students who will receive after school tutorial”

“This is a follow up to the meeting this PASS Monday…”

“Language Arts teachers, your PRESENTS is required…”

Beverly Hall has administrative lackeys making up to six figures, who literally have not mastered skills as basic and past and present tense and subject-verb agreement and she wants to talk about “teacher quality”?

Give me a break.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

August 17, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

So Bridget wants to give a forum to Beverly Hall to make excuses for APS’ shortcomings by laying the blame not on the administrators who create the conditions that teachers labor under, but on the teachers and their lack of “quality”.

Maybe if Bridget was sujected to some of the same memos that teachers are subjected to by ADMINISTRATORS, she’d start being a reporter and stop being a shill.

“This ARE the list of students who will receive after school tutorial…”

“This is a follow up to the meeting this PASS Monday…”

“Language Arts teachers, your PRESENTS is required…”

I know what you’re thinking: you cannot be serious. If you only knew.

Beverly Hall has administrative lackeys making up to six figures, who literally have not mastered skills as basic and past and present tense and subject-verb agreement and she wants to talk about “teacher quality”?

Give me a break.

By linda

August 17, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

No argument that teacher quality is low. The problem is that there is not an truly excellent pool of applicants from which to choose. Frankly, it is embarrassing to intelligent people who try to make teaching a noble profession. The truth is that as long as our society doesn’t value education the teaching profession can’t succeed. If we valued a decent education we would find a way to make work conditions worthy of respectable teachers instead of just hoping some altruistic souls will show up and put up with it. Working conditions could easily be better if we as a society really cared. Compare the SAT scores of those entering this profession to those entering other professions and yes, you will find that in general (obviously not always) they are at the bottom. CLEARLY, we are not attracting a good pool of candidates.

By Carmen

August 17, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Last time I checked if you have evidence then it is no longer a theory. I offered copies and an open records requests can also verify the info.

It’s a shame when people have to resort to insults and other tactics, when they can’t argue with facts.

By Lisa P

August 20, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Justme and Jim D-

I disagree with you and here are some kids that speak to the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_LetQ6P0YI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjfDwz019vI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhJrdizQw8&mode=related&search=

I believe it is us adults who have been brainwashed by the fact that there is only one way of learning and that kids would not understand so and so subject. There are organizations out there that have and continue to successfully teach kids about business and coincidentally these kids turn out to be more focused on their schooling, get better grades, do well in math, writing and reading. Why you ask, cause they feel empowered by knowledge and the more they consume the more they want more.

Here are some of those organizations I managed to find:

http://www.ja.org/ http://www.boujepublishing.com http://www.bizworld.org/programs.html

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

August 20, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

Is Bridget the worst reporter at the AJC or the worst PR rep for Atlanta Public Schools? As the debate rages on, one thing is for certain: She is a talentless hack.

If she is a “reporter” she is morally reprehensible for giving Dr. Hall a forum without questioning the FALSIFIED discipline data, or the REPEATED violations of teachers’ rights to the grievance process.

Both of these have been DOCUMENTED on this forum, yet Bridget chooses the role of shill over reporter.

But, even as a shill, she is incompetent, as she allows Hall to COMPLETELY contradict herself on “teacher quality”.

Hall says “the research shows” teacher quality is THE biggest factor. Never mind how she expects these teachers to teach when it is NOT uncommon for APS teachers to be physically assaulted then BLAMED for it, because their “classroom management” skills are lacking. (Let’s hope Hall never works for a rape crisis center; I shudder to think what she would tell victims, considering what APS tells the teacher victims of physical assault in the classroom.)

But, when Hall’s own competence is called into question, suddenly what we ALL know to be true, it’s not “teacher quality” that’s THE biggest factor, it’s socio-economic status that plays a HUGE role in academic success.

When our talentless hack asks her why we shouldn’t compare APS to ALL systems (after all, she’s had NINE years to put “quality teachers” in place) Hall backtracks and says it’s not fair to compare APS to those systems where more affluent students are the norm.

Which is it Dr. Hal? When it comes to blaming teachers for the SYSTEMIC incompetence of APS, Hall wants to throw teachers under the bus by saying “the reseach shows” the teacher is THE biggest factor in achievement.

So why doesn’t Hall put her money where her mouth is and take 100 teachers from a high performing school and move them to a low performing one and vice versa and see who scores highest at the end of the year? Because Hall KNOWS she’s being dishonest, and that the school with the students from dual parent, higher income, highly educated parents will score better as a whole (as they do in EVERY school system in the United States)

However, when the focus is shifted to Hall, as when it comes to explaining why APS students still lag behind (as in their DEAD LAST scores on a national science assessment) then Hall is OH SO WILLING to forget “the research” and save herself with the “socio-economic status” of APS students.

We all KNOW that socio-economic status is HUGE. And we all KNOW that when “at risk” kids come to school, many from dysfunctional families that lack structure, DISCIPLINE is key.

But Hall relies on the lie named “the reseach” to abdicate her responsibility to create the good teaching conditions that are MANDATORY for good learning conditions.

Given the lies Hall’s administration has put out, the FALSIFIED discipline data, and the REPEATED violations of teachers’ rights, Hall is doing no less than committing academic genocide on the students of APS by not dealing HONESTLY with the problems that plague APS (the AJC actually allowed Dept. Supt. Kathy Augustine to say, without ANY challenge, that FORTY schools had ZERO discipline reports because “perhaps with our reform, there were no discipline problems to report”. Where was the AJC editorial board when THAT whopper was told? Baghdad Bob couldn’t even tell that whopper with a straight face!)

That Bridget allowed her a forum to spew her spin without challenging her on ANY of the above is beyond pathetic. And the fact that, as a shill for APS, she allowed Hall to COMPLETELY contradict herself on “teacher quality” being THE biggest factor is beyond incompetent.

Funny how past blog master Patti Ghezzi seemed to have much more of a willingness than Bridget to ask tough questions…you know, like a REPORTER would. Is that why she’s “on leave” from the APS beat?

Documented violations of teachers’ legal rights. Falsified discipline data (too bad Hall couldn’t falsify the data from the Atlanta Police Department on the number of times they had to come to APS schools for assaults and other serious crimes).

And a “reporter” who will speak to NONE of it (Reporter? Ha! Ralph McGill is turning over in his grave)

You think Hannibal Lechter was evil? That’s nothing, compared to Bridget, Hall and “The Silence of the Shams”

By Deborah Brown

August 23, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

While progessive test scores can be informative, CLASS SIZE is a critical issue. At LAKSIDE HIGH SCHOOL our adminstration was not expecting the enrollemt numbers we currently have 8 days into school. we ahev classes in trailers with over 40 students and regular classes with 47, not enough desks nor text books. I would like to see a report showing how often a school adminstration is unprepared for students.