Get Schooled

By JustMe

August 15, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

I think think that parents only need to look at salaries…. How much are plumbers paid? How about electricians?

If that is what the student wants to do, why not?

There is no shame in NOT going to college. We have to change that mind set.

By Jeff

August 15, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

While my parents always used the WORD “college”, what they MEANT was “some kind of post-HS education to ensure that you don’t wind up getting stuck as a secretary or mill worker like us”.

I did the official “college” route.

Middle bro has tried the college route, it aint going so swift for him. He should probably consider one of the tech schools - he’s GOOD at that stuff. (He took welding in HS and probably recieved his best HS grades in that class.) He knows cars and their electronics (worked at Best Buy in the installation bay for a while) and is generally REALLY good with mechanical type things that I always wind up paying someone else to do because I’m as lost around that stuff as they are around an IDE and compiler.

Youngest bro is shaping up to excel even more than I as far as the academic side of college goes. (And hey, my 3.33 wasn’t too shabby!)

So I think I’ll stick with my parents’ philosophy: Do your best, and get SOME kind of degree post HS. Whether it be a PhD in mathematics from Harvard or a Automotive Brake Specialist Technical Certificate of Credit from South Ga Tech, does not matter. Above all, do NOT get stuck doing something you hate, and make sure that whatever you do you can provide for your family. Because THAT is the true measure of a man.

By Ernest

August 15, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Looks like Richardson has been lurking and reading comments from the GetSchooled posters. How long have we been saying the real alternatives need to be provided to our students? How many statistics do we need to reference regarding the number of students that both go to and finish college?

This is about ensuring we have a skilled workforce, enabling us to compete for jobs. I say better late than never that they are having these conversations.

By Janine

August 15, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

Right, Justme. Most parents want their children to be successful at whatever they choose to do and be able to provide adequately for themselves and their families. THat’s not to say there aren’t those who feel that they must have their kids go to the BEST college/university and move into some prestigious career. HOwever, I think those are in the minority.

How many times have we discussed this issue here????? Way more than MANY!!Finally, someone in politics may have listened and applied some common sense to a huge problem! If Richardson’s plan gains momentum and actually gets through, it will be a truly watershed event in education in Georgia.

By Susan

August 15, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

The trend in some metro areas seems to be assume all students should be on a college track. They have done away with technical classes at Brookwood High and students who want to take technical classes have to provide their own transportation to Grayson HS. This is TERRIBLE. There is nothing wrong with NOT having a college diploma, but Gwinnett, at least, seems to expect all students to perform at or above grade level, which is totally unrealistic. There are plenty of great kids who will not be getting anything but an “attendance diploma” because they aren’t taking college prep classes.

By JustMe

August 15, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Susan, Trust me…. it isn’t just Gwinnett. DeKalb has long since disposed of any technical trainning. This is what has been happening state-wide.

For whatever reason, high schools in GA have forced all kids into College Prep without regard for the students ability, desire, skill, or anything.

IMHO, this is a major contributor to the GA low “test scores” such as the SAT, etc. compared to other States. In GA, most schools force all students to take the SAT even though the student may have no desire at all to ever go to college….. do you think that those students score well? I don’t think so. This isn’t just SAT, but includes all standardized tests such as the EOCT in college prep high school courses, and so on.

By Ernest

August 15, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Slight correction JustMe. DeKalb has offer ‘career tech’ classes just not at every HS campus. As a part of SPLOST, they are adding career tech offerings (through building additions) to most, if not all HSs now. I was impressed when I say what we called ‘shop class’ back in the day now being called building construction.

IMO, the school system will need to help educate the community on what is available for this to really succeed. I understand they are offering ‘career education’ classes at the MS level to compliment the offerings in the HSs.

Does anyone recall if Career Tech is still a diploma option? I thought we discussed there might be changes to this.

By Old School

August 15, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

In my very own humble opinion, students need real alternatives to the college prep track. Why not offer Business Communications, Technical Writing, and training related maths to the traditional Literature and other purely academic subjects? I’ve always said any course grounded in the real world is far more valuable to students and far more likely to get results than any course they cannot see the real world connection in.

By Susan

August 15, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

The only diploma that’s good for anything in Gwinnett is the college prep one. The attendance diploma means you showed up for school. That goes to students in special ed classes who can’t perform on grade level.

By Old School

August 15, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Ernest, A slight correction (because I was a shop teacher): What is now Building Construction began as the Construction Cluster back in the 70s when Georgia implemented the Comprehensive High School model. “Shop” was actually Industrial Arts and was a broadbased program of woodworking, metals, drafting, photography, small engines, some electronics. The cluster courses in the comp high schools were to prepare students with entry-level job skills. IA was more of a survey type course (but I thought one of the best lead-in to the T&I courses ever!) An example of the difference in IA and Construction: IA taught furniture building skills, Const was home building/cabinetmaking/plumbing/etc.

Unfortunately, IA is a rare gem (I think Rabun Gap still has a wonderful program taught by my own former shop teacher). It was replaced by the Tech Ed course and its little modules.

Some of the metro Comprehensive high schools share a center like DeKalb OEC and students were bused to those centers.

Ah, the good old days when being a vocational student or teacher was a good thing!

I don’t think the career tech (actually Tech Prep) diploma is an option but students might still be able to get the Tech Prep endorsement.

By SET

August 15, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Here we go again.

What part of “Not College Material” do people not understand?

If a family has 4 or more children - and I went to school with some Irish Catholic families with 10 kids - Some will be brighter and some will be dumb as hell.

The dumb/slow/alcoholic/mentally ill or whatever kids may have a lot of talent. Graduating from Stanford isn’t one of them. We need only to look at Hollywood and NYC and see entertainers with Yale degrees (Jody Foster?) and then we have Brittany Spears. You can be smart or dum and still make a fortune from time to time in this great country. Keeping the fortune is another thing.

A whole lot of people have no business being in (a 4 year) college. Education is great and everybody should take what they can when they can. For some people that’s Jr College, for some it’s small classes at the Boy’s Ranch before the prison terms start.

People are not created equal. They are created different. You have to make the most of what you have. College is great if you have what it takes. Most people don’t.

By SET

August 15, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Back on point, most families will love the availability of alternative education and occupational training. Regardless of the huge racial issues with this topic, every family has certain members who don’t keep up with the others.

We all want choices and possibilities for the slow, not just a “College or Failure” track currently featured in many school systems. We need a safe trail to put our slower relatives on - we all get tired of them shaking down the family for support because they “didn’t make it” like their siblings did.

They used to go work for the Post Office. Now the slow can’t even go there any more - Post Office is both going to shrink and get smarter with it’s workforce - more computers and automation. And I think half of the nation’s bank tellers are about to be replaced by the next generation of ATM’s.

We need a lot of very nimble Vocational Ed programs - Jr College based with high school students allowed to transfer in for a HS/certificate combination diploma.

By Janine

August 15, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Sorry about that.! Bridget…is there any chance you might forward some of this discussion [or send it snail mail]…as well as those we have posted before on this topic..to the legislators?

By Ernest

August 15, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, thanks for the correction! I should be embarrassed because my father was a shop teacher way back when thus should have remembered it was also called Industrial Arts. He was able to leverage his skills into a ‘side hustle’ of building cabinets for people. Perhaps you feel the same OldSchool but he always likes to say some of his most successful students were not those that went to college but those that were able to make a career out of building things. They were self employed thus motivated to do a good job. They did quite well for themselves and their families.

I think we still have the shoe box that we made as a project back then. Great memories from shop class. Unfortunately many students today might have challenges knowing the difference between a skill and sabre saw. Heck, some may have problems knowing the difference between a flat and phillips head screwdriver… :)

By Lily Toad

August 15, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

A young person coming out of high school who goes into one of the trades, eg., plumbing, carpentry, electical, as an apprentice, will be making more money at 22 than the person who went to college. These trades will always be needed. My step-son started college but really only went to play baseball. He was not academically oriented, although he is smart, and he dropped out of college to learn to install and finish wood floors. He’s now working in quality control for a flooring company and he’s not yet 30. I think this was a good career path for him.

By Jeff

August 15, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Ernest:

Phillips is pointy, right?

:P

As noted earlier, there is a REASON I went with more academic pursuits….

By Tony

August 15, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

School systems already have flexibility with post-secondary options. It is not a new idea that Mr. Richardson is touting. Believe it or not, professional educators are really interested in kids getting the best options available!

By Stacey

August 15, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

My brother dropped out of high school (later got his GED) and worked first as a long haul truck driver, then as a construction worker. At his boss’s suggestion, he took courses to become a licensed electician. He makes considerably more money and has more job security than I do.

I have a neighbor with a college degree who was laid off from a job in IT several years ago. He got a degree in heating and air conditioning repair and now has more work than he can handle (according to his wife, anyway). It takes more than Doctors and Lawyers to make the world go around.

By gwinnettian

August 15, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

They are phasing out the flexibility in Gwinnett (and it sounds like other counties). This year there are a few tech courses left for the juniors and seniors that started on the tech track. But the freshman and sophmores are taking college prep. If a student can handle CP and add Tech courses, then they can get a dual diploma but that is harder than the single.

For the challenged (for whatever reason) there will be 2 choices, CP or attendance, which is basically nothing when it comes to getting a job. They would be better off getting a GED than having just an attendance diploma.

By HS Teacher Too

August 15, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

For whatever reason, high schools in GA have forced all kids into College Prep without regard for the students ability, desire, skill, or anything.

And the result of that is that the TRUE college prep kids are robbed of the education they deserve, because the courses are dumbed down to the ridiculous so that failure rates aren’t 80%. The kids who shouldn’t be in the college prep classes are robbed of an education as well, because what they DO get, is so dumbed down to be meaningless and irrelevant to any future coursework the kids might do. And all of this in turn contributes to the low test scores — because the kids who can’t, still can’t, and the kids who could have, now can’t.

And then Gwinnett complains and wonders why soooo many of their kids have to take remedial classes in college!!

Sigh. It seems that everyone can tell what’s wrong (and what to do about it) except for the people who make the rules and decisions. It frustrates me to no end …

But back on topic, I believe that there would be a lot of parents who would be glad to have alternatives for their kids. I just don’t see many of those parents here in Gwinnett … I have seen far too many parents with the mindset that their kid (even he/she of the 70-average) is going to Georgia …

By Lee

August 15, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

Sounds like a great idea.

Here’s the thing, around the 10th grade or so, a student should have acquired the basic skills to function in today’s society. He should know how to perform basic math. He should know how to write a simple, coherent sentence. He should know how to read. If this student does not have the aptitude for college or does not have the desire to go to college, why force feed him something that he views as worthless and has no interest in.

Now, when that same student graduates (assuming he doesn’t drop out), he goes to work, often in menial, low-paying jobs. Working 50-60 hours per week does not leave a lot of time to go back to trade school to further their education and training.

If you could take that same student and put him in a trade school in the 11th and 12th grades, he would be well on his way to learning a trade and may well be able to obtain certifications (certified welder) or licenses (heating & air, plumbing, electrician, etc.) soon upon graduation. Most of these programs, by the way, are two year programs. Meshes very nicely.

This is the way you end the circle of poverty.

Besides, I’ve often jokingly stated that I’ve used the three W’s (welding, wiring, and woodshop) that I learned in my high school INDUSTRIAL ARTS classes much more than anything I learned in Grad school. Even if you’re college bound, you can benefit from a technical curriculum.

By Ernest

August 16, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Jeff, when someone asks for the ‘thingamajig’ or the ‘whatchamacallit’, it’s got to know which one they are referring to… :)

By Ernest

August 16, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

Forgive the typo :x. I meant it’s ‘good’ to know….

By WFC

August 16, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

Some smart, hard-working, well-adjusted students simply are not “academic” and our schools must recognize this.

The flip side of this, an answer to the “you can make more money in a trade argument” is that there is a BIG difference in being a plumber or air conditioning technician at age 25 compared to age 50. Something to think about.

Our society, from a functional perspective, does not need an adult population that is 100% college graduates. The college experience does, however, provide a broadening of experience and perspective that “training” does not. So, it’s not an easy question.