Get Schooled

By mmm

August 2, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

Working conditions and disrespect.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

Financially speaking: That is 9 months of - on average - 10 hour work days. That does NOT count time spent working on the weekend nor during the summer.

$40,000 is a BARGAIN for the amount of work teachers do in said 9 months, and even more so for the amount of political BS they have to put up with.

Also note that said $40K is in one of GA’s richest counties. The STATE salary is just over $32.5K

By Adam

August 2, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Go spend those 9 months with kids who have absolutely no respect for you or anyone else. Not to mention the amount of money teachers have to come out of pocket for supplies when the school system and parents won’t do it. Then, on top of that, most teachers have to move rooms each year or every couple of years. If you can’t fit it at home, you have to get a storage unit…again more money. Then you spend several weeks of those ‘3’ months rearranging everything to fit the criteria the school systems have. I can guarantee that if you Bridget, had to put up with that crap, you would want more money, too. How many people get paid overtime? I haven’t seen the first overtime payment yet. My wife runs herself ragged because it is her ‘responsibility’ to make sure these kids are able to move to the next grade. Hey parents, why don’t you step in and help them at home…it makes your child’s life so much easier.

I won’t even get into disciplining kids. How about take away a video game instead of pumping them full of ridilin???

By Melissa

August 2, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

I think that most teachers know that working conditions and disrespect could possibly be issues, yet they still choose to teach.

I made $36K when I graduated with an engineering degree, worked 10 hours days, 12 months a year. I’m sure there is still a lot to complain about for teachers, but I think that the salary ($40K, 9 months) is pretty good for someone fresh out of school.

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

You’re right in that $40k isn’t bad starting pay out of college. The problem isn’t starting pay, it’s pay for seasoned veterans. When you go up the scale, even in the wealthiest counties, the most a teacher will ever make in his/her career—with 26 years experience—is $65K. There’s the problem. If you obtain advanced degrees you can raise your income somewhat, but then comes the online diploma mill…another blog topic.

With the teacher shortage, systems have been raising starting pay to lure recruits from one another, but the career-long wages on the salary schedules haven’t increased commensurately. In fact, the raises many years have not been enough to cover the increasing cost of State health insurance.

So, in other words, if you’ve been in a system for say, 10 years, you’re not making a whole lot more than you did when you started, and it may feel like less because your insurance costs so much more…

If you want an example, Fulton’s salary schedule for teachers is posted right on its website for the world to see. Starting pay is $39K…10 years, $48K…15 years, $56k. That’s a long time to wait. And know there are NO supplemental/intangible extras to being a teacher. No company cell phone, no car allowance, no Christmas bonus, no matching 401K, and you end up spending a thousand or so just on materials and supplies. Every minute you have to be away is deducted in leave time and/or docked pay—no long lunch for a dentist appt, no coming in a an hour late because you had to meet the heating and air guy, no leaving an hour early to be there for your kid’s soccer game. And that doesn’t even take into account the after school responsibilities: open house, extra curricular sponsorship, PTA meetings, faculty meetings, parent conferences, parent phone calls, and the least of which is grading. The only after-hours work that pays is coaching athletics, and those supplements are almost insulting they’re so small. This job is your entire life, around the clock, when school is in session.

And it’s not 9 months; it’s ten.

If you think about it, you can see why the problem is becoming less about obtaining teachers and more about keeping them.

By Jacob Wood

August 2, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

I’d encourage a study on how many new teachers fresh out of college continue teaching more than a few years after initially being attracted by the ‘high’ salary of 40K a year. I think you’d find that most leave for higher paying, less demanding jobs that are more respected by our society. I speak from personal experience.

By Koz

August 2, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

*Are you surprised to see salaries posted *”right on its website for the world to see” ? **

You can view all state government employee salaries (including teachers) by name on the Department of Audits Web site.

It seems to be moving slow today but enjoy.

By Koz

August 2, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Oh and italics inside of bold doesn’t work on this blog.

By gwinnett teacher

August 2, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

The pay is not bad. I make almost 60k with advanced degrees and nine years of experience. The most frustrating thing about the “compensation” is the leave accounting. This is where I feel I am an hourly employee, not a white-collar professional. Every minute I have to be gone is docked from my leave time or pay. Even leaving 15 minutes early (when students have already left for the day) is accounted for on my time. There is no lunch break to take care of any personal errands. If I have an event at my children’s school I have to move heaven and earth to find coverage for my class- not to mention the hours I have to spend to leave plans for my substitute.

However, I have just had the last ten weeks “off”. This gave me lots of time with my kids, and I still got a paycheck all summer. So, I am not complaining. There is some give and take, but I am happy with teaching as a profession!

By Sandra

August 2, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

9 months? I don’t think so. It’s more like 7 - 8 weeks.

By jct

August 2, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

I think the real question is the $40,000 salary attracting a better quality applicant. I work in HR and it is a well known fact the throwing money at an applicant doesn’t necessarily increase the quality of the applicant pool.

Will this $40,000 salary keep these new teachers teaching or will it be the spring board to another career?

Elaine - why would you stay in a job if those ‘perks’ (cell phone, matching 401K, etc) are important to you. Where I work I have none of those perks either. I love what I do and where I work so those things don’t matter as much.

I have great respect for teachers and all that they do. However, how realistic are the expectations being set for new teachers? Anyone with a half a brain could figure out that teachers really don’t work 9 months per year and that you don’t get off from work when the last bell of the rings.

My personal belief is that $40,000 will get bodies in the door but I don’t see this as solution to long term retention. Other creative solutions will need to be implemented to make teaching a more reasonable long term profession.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

I have two sisters who are teachers in Cobb. Here’s how I look at it.

Most people work 250 days a year. If you take your salary and divide by 2, and move the decimal over 3 spots. That’s your hourly wage.

i.e. someone who makes $66K makes rougly $33 dollars an hour.

So someone who makes $40K makes rougly $20/hr

A teacher however only works what 180 days year.

$40K/180/8 = ~$28/hr

which is equivalent to 28*2= $56K for a normal work schedule.

I don’t want to hear about dealing with kids, supplies, etc. Trying working in the real world!

By CaroinMarietta

August 2, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

Melissa, when did you graduate and begin your career at $36K? Our clerks (who process paperwork) are paid between $31K & $33K with little to no education. I am not a teacher, but I do support the higher starting salary. I volunteered in my kids’ school and saw first hand the classroom environment in which our teachers worked. Even in “rich” East Cobb, teachers spent money out of their own pocket to purchase class supplies for their kids. The classroom included kids who had physical and learning disabilities (parents insisted on mainstreaming), forcing the teacher and paraprofessional to devote more time to their needs, taking up valuable teaching time for the rest of the class. Add to this mix another 18 or so students, and $40K is CHEAP. Teachers today are educators, surrogate parents, counselors, to name a few.

Hats off to our teachers! And Melissa, what is your salary potential? I know several engineers whose salaries easily doubled within 5 - 7 years of graduation.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

gtfan - As someone who has worked in both corporate and a school setting, I can assure you that your simplistic breakdown doesnt reflect reality in any way.

A more realistic breakdown is as follows:

“Real World” - 240 days/8hours a day = 1920 total hours.

Education - 194 days/10 hours a day = 1940 total hours.

That number also doesnt include the time spent working at home or during the summer.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

In any education issue, the first focus should always be on the students. Therefore, the most important question is whether there is any correlation between teacher pay and student achievement. Just a few days ago, the AJC was reporting that rural students did better in math and science — and that rural teachers earned less than urban teachers. But regarding teacher pay itself, a recent study found that, based on the amount of time they work, teachers are paid more than many other professionals. “Generally, teachers earn more on an hourly basis than other educated professionals, including accountants, computer programmers, engineers, and architects.” (Heritage Foundation website) Regarding work at home—the less competent the teacher, the longer it may take him or her to grade homework. At any rate, many teachers simply do give much work that requires extensive grading. They also do not seem to spend much time in preparing work. Instead, they seem to rely on packaged worksheets and tests (probably also to forestall parent complaints). Regarding working conditions, perhaps part of the the problem lies in teacher education. For example, it’s probably still true that teachers receive NO professional training in communicating with parents. Georgia still does not have routine parent-teacher conferences—and I’d love to see that correlated with student achievement. Teachers also may have unrealistic expectations about students and/or parents. They themselves must have loved the classrooms but that love may not be shared. Currently, all school activities are scheduled around teachers’ needs, from the timing of parent-teacher conferences to the presentation of the PTA, an organization of camp followers opposed to school choice, as the only way to improve schools. Given the amount of energy teachers seem to devote to complaining about their students and parents, it’s no wonder that disrespect becomes mutual. Better teacher preparation and structing positive communication times such as mandatory parent-teacher conferences would go far to improve the situation.

By American

August 2, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

We are talking about the future of our nation! Teachers need to be respected and well paid. We need to attract the best and brightest to our schools in order to turn this nation around. Why are kids so out of control and ill-educated these days? Not enough resources are spent on teaching and schools.

By Greg

August 2, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Who are you people kidding when you say that “real world” only works 8 hour days? give me a break. Most people in the real world on salary average between 45-55 hours a week.

By aa

August 2, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Ive always thought that teachers are under paid. Where would we be without them? I know of two teachers, and I must say these kids nowadays have no respect, no respect for a 40000 salary and a headache? No way.. Its sad that teachers dont get paid enough for dealing with these horrible kids who have no manners and their idiotic parents who train them to be that way.

By J

August 2, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

There are no professional jobs where people work 8 hours per day.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

GOB

That’s assuming 8 hours for both. If I actually got paid for my overtime hours as well, 50-60 hours per week then you can add that to your calculation.

I also am graded on my performance, teachers are not, they can’t even lose their job unless they commit a serious crime.

The get an automatic 6% a year and another automatic step with more degrees.

There’s some things that I feel teachers have a right to complain about, but pay isn’t one of them.

By Dave

August 2, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

I think that teaching requires dealing with a lot of stress and a lot of homework and planning. They should make starting pay of 65k with a scale up to 95k.

That would be the only way you could take someone like me and convince me to teach. We need more engineers and scientists to come into the teaching world.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Mary - Do you have any experiance with actual teachers to base those claims on (teachers dont do much grading or prep work)? I have yet to meet a teacher that works an eight hour day. 10 is a much more realistic situation.

The Heritage Foundation is a right wing think tank with a stated goal to effect policy change. It is a lot easier to push for vouchers and the privitazation of public schools if you say that public school teachers are essentially lazy. It is important to look at the agenda of those who release those sorts of studies.

Maybe I am just in the rare school where the teachers do care and spent a considerable amount of time preparing for lessons and even more grading. I doubt that is the case though.

Also, as discussed above, the issue isnt really initial pay. It is the pay for veteran teachers.

I took a huge pay cut (over $30K a year) to become a teacher, so I might not be the best person to really ask. I have never worked harder, but have also never been happier in my work.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

There are no professional jobs where people work 8 hours per day.

I agree. Most “work” about 3 hours a day. I was there for a long time, so I have personal experiance on this one. As a teacher, I cant zone out for 30 minutes, or spend an hour looking for a birthday present for my wife online.

gtfan - The whole point of my rebuttal was that you cant assume 8 hours a day for both. From my experiance, and who knows, maybe it is skewed, teachers put in more hours on a daily basis than the average corporate worker. I worked for a Fortune 100 company for 6 years, and saw it everyday.

Also, I would love to know what district gives automatic 6% raises every year. I am getting 2.5% this year, or about the same that people with really bad reviews got in corporate.

Now, dont get me wrong, I am not complaining about initial teacher pay, but I do think your math was not exactly accurate.

By Phog

August 2, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

“I also am graded on my performance, teachers are not, they can’t even lose their job unless they commit a serious crime.”

Teachers are evaluated a minimum of three times per year by their administrators.

Plenty of teachers are told at the of the school year to go away. We have about 50 new hirees in our small little county. Only about 15 came because someone retired. We’re a poor little county (but quite smart according to AYP “standards”) and new teachers don’t anywhere near $40,000.

Retirement is a funny little thing, too. If you make it 30 years, you get 60% of what your salary was in your final year.

None of you who complain have to deal with unmotivated, disrespectful children. As stated above, teachers have to teach, counsel, parent, entertain, enlighten, and be on the lookout for kids’ mental and physical welfare. Middle grades teachers and above generally see 150+ kids per day. Lunch - all 40 minutes of it - is generally intertwined with duty. Your bathroom break is during lunch or planning (if it isn’t filled with meetings) because you can’t exactly go when they do. Or else they’ll start a fight.

By georgiagirl

August 2, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

I bet that all the people complaining about teachers being overpaid are the ones who send their self-absorbed kids to school for the teacher to deal with all day. These are the same kids who are throwing tantrums in public when they are two years old and later come to school thinking that the rules don’t apply to them. Whenever I’ve volunteered in my children’s classrooms there are always little monsters that are a major distraction for the rest of the class. If you think teachers are not worth the pay, do us all a favor and home-school your kids.

By American

August 2, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

MARY… The Heriatge Foundation is a Christian Organization with the intent mission of infusing religion into our government. Of course they despise public education and will say anything to undermine it. The Heritage Foundation would like us all to go to religious schools (like those found in Pakistan and Afghanistan) so that our young people can be indoctrinated into the evangelical world. That is also why the Heritage Foundation and other right wing groups encouraged church members to run for school board positions all over the country in the 80’s and 90’s — in order to further their agenda of destroying public education.

By SET

August 2, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I recently talked with a 29 year old CA Prison Guard who got custody of his children following a messy divorce. He made $125,000 on his W-2, plus untaxed benefits last year and expects to make the same or more this year. His friends make this kind of $$ also. He is a HS grad with no Jr College. He is rank-and-file, not a supervisor in any way. He is Hispanic, but assimilated enough so he does not go to Mexico a month every year. His Grandparents were born there.

I point this out so that the readership can contrast the pay the public school teachers make. It’s now far less than CA pays it’s state hospital psych techs (70k?) who have only some Jr College, and a fraction of the CA Prison Guard pay.

And remember, this pay is factored into the Pension calculations. Many of these workers are also maxing out the 457b deferred comp pre-tax voluntary retirement contributions. On top of that, Peace Officers retire earlier than other occupations.

Absolutely No-One is impressed with your payscales.

Is this a great country or what?

Brave New World.

By DK

August 2, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

From the above, I kept reading about work hours and at home work time. So, teachers, how many classes a day do you teach? Do you have built in time and days to plan and grade? Veteran teaches, does your planning time decrease as your career moves forward by levearging past plans? I have lost count of unpaid evenings, weekends and holidays where I worked, but I sure as heck am not crying to the public because my job was my choice.

Now, every job has stress and people you do not want to deal with, just because you deal with kids does not qualify you as a higher stress.

As for the pay, did you know about the pay and the pay potential when you went to college to be a teacher? NO ONE FORCED YOU TO GO INTO TEACHING!

Oh yea, whats the starting pay for police officers in Cobb???

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

I have lost count of unpaid evenings, weekends and holidays where I worked, but I sure as heck am not crying to the public because my job was my choice.

But you might mention it your boss, right? As teachers are paid by the state and the county, by speaking out in public, we are essentially doing the same thing.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

Well, Cobb splits into two don’t know what they call it but it’s a raise and something else, each around 3%.

Teachers know exactly what they will be making when they CHOOSE their profession.

Well, I got an engineering degree from Tech and if the complexity and type of work a public school teacher performs was comprable to mine I wouldn’t complain.

If you’re going to keep comparing hours, then I’ll just say there’s a difference b/t working hard and working smart. Guess the teachers couldn’t figure that out when choosing their profession.

By Tina

August 2, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Based on the Teachers’ comments above, confirms why Georgia is one of the lowest States in overall test scores.

By Ann

August 2, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Did you not know the salary when you took the promotion !!! Find something else to do or deal with it - who isn’t underpaid - in their opinion!!!

If you soroo’s love teaching so much, quit trying to out-do your soro-sister by getting a higher education to buy a bigger car and a bigger house and focus on loving the teaching of children…as you say !!!

By Elf

August 2, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

A 20-something with a Chemical Engineering degree can make over $52,000 per year with better benefits and much better long-term career earnings potential. Many other degrees are close to that in starting pay. If you add in the almost mandatory advanced degrees that Teachers get you would be seeing starting pay in the $60K+ range or $100K for a Lawyer. I don’t think $40K is that out of whack. For a lot of us “age-challenged” it sounds like a lot of money but we also remember sub-$2,000 new cars and $400 house payments and who sees either of those anymore?

Get a grip, they work long hours, they deal with high stress (things like teenagers with guns in the classrooms), and they spend a lot of their own money every year to compensate for the lack of real support from the parents or government. They more than earn it.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Well, Cobb splits into two don’t know what they call it but it’s a raise and something else, each around 3%.

No, they dont. The state budget calls for a 3% raise for teachers this year. Cobb, however, already pays their teachers higher than the state average, so instead of teachers getting the full 3%, they are given a pro-rated raise of 2.5%. That is it.

There are some steps based on the amount of time one has been teaching, but they dont come in every year.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

“They should make starting pay of 65k…”

What?! A first-year analyst on Wall Street, working 100 hours a week, only makes a base salary of $55-60K.

Lots of people are qualified to be baseline teachers. As a result of working in a non-competitive environment vis-a-vis compensation, great teachers who are scarcer in supply are relegated to baseline salaries.

If schools were privatized, teachers would make what they deserved. Money is the single most powerful motivating force in a capitalistic, worldly society like ours. Well-educated, highly skilled workers almost invariably go where the money is: the private sector.

By Atlanta Native

August 2, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

I have no sympathy for these teachers who use political motives to get their raises each year. Each year the teachers always get more than the regular state workers. I have been a state employee for 15 years, BS degree, and only make $36,500 a year. I started making $18,000 in 1992. I support a family of 4 on this without help or assistance. Am I not deserving of a decent raise this year. It would be nice to make at least 40k before I am 40 which is only 2 years away !

By Rod

August 2, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

GOB - you’re a teacher?!?! That’s what’s wrong with our kids today. Illiterates like you are teaching. Your posts are filled with incorrectly spelled words and grammatical mistakes.

You wrote “experiance” twice, “cant” twice and “dont” once. That was just in your 12:14 post. Please, go back to school yourself before you teach anymore!

By JV

August 2, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

If schools were privatized, teachers would make what they deserved.

Because education doesnt already have enough issues, we should add turning a profit into the mix…

By Eric

August 2, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

I for one have great respect for teachers. If it was not for them none of us would be in the professions that we are in from the over paid CEO’s who rip off everyone to the engineers. Teachers do spend a lot of time devoting to the community as well as educating everyone. So why are some people content to say that a teacher does not deserve a raise. But I guess those types of people think that they made it to the top because it was there right. As I figure teachers should be the highest paid people in the world.

I do know when I go back to my old school and see some of the teachers that had a real impact on my life, I thank them. With out them where would I be.

I have even gone in on career day and tried to tell the kids about being in the Marines and how respect gets you everywhere and you need to thank the people that got you there. The parnets of these kids were rolling their eyes and saying that teaching was one of the trival jobs in America. I am sorry to say those particular parnet’s kids were the worst behaved kids in the room.

Again I say you really could never pay a teacher enough for what they do.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

gtfan:

I am BOTH a certified teacher AND a currently working professional programmer.

TRUST me, engineering of ANY type compared to teaching is like saying the person on the cruise ship crossing the Atlantic is working harder than the person SWIMMING the Atlantic. There simply IS NO accurate comparison.

Take it straight from the horses’ mouth: Teaching was a day to day WAR for my very SANITY. And in some days, my LIFE was literally at risk. In engineering, even with a WAAAYYYY missed deadline, you simply don’t have anywhere NEAR the pressure. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering if someone is going to lie about you and cost you your job that day. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering if you’re going to get shot that day. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering how many fights you’re going to have to break up that day. The ONLY analog that is even CLOSE to giving you an idea what teaching is like is weekly performance meetings (such as I have every Friday where you discuss what you did that week with the team and the boss critiques it). And even then the analog is VERY rough, because in teaching you have your official chain of command - dept head, asst principal, principal, superintendent - AND an UNofficial chain of command - parents in particular, but literally EVERYBODY ELSE in general - and ANY of these people can cost you your job at ANY moment REGARDLESS of the legitimacy of their claims.

By DK

August 2, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Dear GOB, No I did not cry to my boss about the work hours, I wanted to produce the best work possible and if that took my beyond normal work hours, so be it.

I guess that’s the difference between you and me and way you work in the public sector, not the private.

By John

August 2, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Salaries and benefits for teachers in Georgia are excellent. This is the main reason teachers are pouring into Georgia from neighboring states because our salaries are very high. However, they earn every penny of it.

What is interesting is that private and Catholic schools are paying their teachers several thousand—usually in excess of $10,000—less than the public schools and far less generous benefits. Yet, those private and Catholic schools are attracting teachers that generally are better than most of those in public schools.

It is clear that paying more money is not the key to a better educational system.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

“Because education doesnt already have enough issues, we should add turning a profit into the mix…”

And why do you think schools have so many issues? Because they’re run by the government. Teachers are trapped. They’re forced to adhere to arbitrary curriculum guidelines; they can’t discipline students without being accused of a civil rights violation; and to top it off, they’re unable to distinguish themselves from less qualified co-workers.

Profit isn’t a problem. It’s a solution.

By catlady

August 2, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

I am at the bottom right hand corner of the pay scale: max degrees, max experience. I make $67,000 next year, with my local supplement.

Too bad teachers don’t get combat pay, or overtime.

You are right. We choose to do this. Fewer and fewer are choosing to stick around past the first few years. That tells us one of two things: the wrong people are going into education, or it just isn’t worth it. It used to be a glorious profession but has become something far less, in many cases. Anyone who thinks teachers are adequately paid needs to spend a full week in a school shadowing a teacher every moment.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

As a parent, and someone who reads information from a wide variety of sources, I am surprised at the vitrol directed at students and parents on this blog. I am sure the teachers spewing anger do not understand why the public, mostly composed of adults who work 12 months a year, do not start throwing even more money at them to make up for their enormous hardship and deep personal suffering in teaching the parents’awful, horrible, terrible, appalling children. School choice would solve most education problems.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

John - I would ask how you know that the teachers that the private schools are hiring are better.

Also, the main reason that teachers are willing to take less money is because they know the schools have the ability to choose who to let it in, and who they can turn down. That leads to easier classrooms to manange on a daily basis.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Show me the studies linking teacher pay and student performance.

By Sam Cunningham

August 2, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Bridget -

How disappointed I am with your comment that teachers only work “9 months.” Your comment clearly shows how very little you know of the teaching profession.

It seems that you are with the misinformed group of people that think that teaching is ‘easy’ and that the job starts at the beginning of the day when the bell rings and stops with the last bell of the school day. It seems that you also feel that teachers have summers ‘off’ and just sit around a swimming pool, relaxing. How very wrong and mislead you are!

I worked for 12 years in the corporate world and changed professions. I have worked as a high school teacher for 5 years. I was paid into 6 figures for my corporate salary and am paid less than half of that for my teaching salary. Funny thing is that the amount of work in one year I do is the same!

Good teachers start their day way before the children arrive. This means that sometimes I get to work at 6:30 AM (which I never did in the corporate world). I write lesson plans, make copies for hand-outs, and do numerous other things that I had a secretary do when I was in the corporate world. Then, I answer emails because, of course, I cannot answer emails during class. Science teachers set up labs for the day and continue to prepare.

During the school day, we go non-stop. Even our so-called ‘planning period’ is not ours because the administration gives us hall duty and lunch room duty.

After the last bell of the day, kids sometimes stop by for extra help. So, our ‘job’ is not done. Then, we have to grade papers, complete the administrative requirements for the day (this varies from school to school) and begin thinking about the next day. Good teachers often leave ‘work’ at about 6 PM or even later.

During so-called holidays and summers, the good teachers do not lounge around the pool. We take continuing education classes to hone our teaching skill. This summer, I was basically forced to help the school system coordinator with one of her pet projects. Most of us also try to take college level courses to increase our level of certification to get the measily pay increase that affords us. What other profession does this kind of crap?

Another aspect that this includes is how good teachers spend so very much from their own pay check for school supplies. Yes, the school system provides white board markers, but they are either dried out or they are the cheap ones that really don’t erase - so we have to go to Target and buy our own. Note that this is just one item for an example. Again, what other profession requires people to spend money out of their pay check to buy supplies for their job????? Can you imagine Coca-Cola hiring you and then telling you that you must buy your own laptop to do your job?

Bridget, if you are going to continue to be the person in charge of this blog, I HIGHLY recommend that you become knowledgable about the subject before posting another ignorant comment like that!!!

Teacher pay is what our society has deemed. Obviously, our society doesn’t care about educating youth, so the teacher pay is low. Imagine what would happen over time if teacher pay was $100,000 per year! Highly qualified people would be lining up for the open jobs. The teaching and learning done would be fabulous.

Instead, the pay is pitiful so school systems mostly get pitiful people to teach. You get what you pay for!

By holdingAJCaccountable

August 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Quote from GTfan

“I don’t want to hear about dealing with kids, supplies, etc. Trying working in the real world!”

When you are physically assaulted in your “real world” job, does your boss tell you it’s your fault for not “managing” the assailant properly?

You might want to stick to commenting on “the real world” because you obviously don’t have a clue about the teaching world.

By SET

August 2, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

I grew up in Catholic Schools in the ’60s and people had a lot of respect for Nuns and Priests - then.

No one wanted their child to become one.

Face it, people. It is no longer a rational decision for most college educated workers to become a public school teacher unless it’s at least at Jr. College level. Or you have family money and don’t have to support a family anyway.

You can do so. It’s just not a rational decision. Think of the Soviet Union Factory Workers who made products no one wanted that piled up in warehouses. Look what happened to them when the Central Government/Command Economy eventually ran out of steam? They are left to beg for food while workers that produce value dance in nightclubs.

Don’t think it’s not going to happen here.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Sam hit the nail on the head. The specific numbers arent the issue, but rather what our society truly values.

Teachers, police and firemen have been told by our society that they arent really that important. Why? Because they dont make anyone any money.

Until there is a fundemental change in what we as a society value, we will continue to have under-performing schools, and police and firemen who risk their lives on a daily basis for less money than I made the day I walked out of college to go work for the phone company buying coax cable.

By Anita

August 2, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

When you take in consideration the children who the teachers have to deal with and the other responsibilities that come along with the job, 40K is not nearly enough to compensate these individuals who choose this profession.

Yes, the individuals may know what to expect when they accept the job of a teacher but someone has to do it. I thank God that there are individuals out there who are interested in teaching our children and not interested in just having the summers off with pay.

I am not a teacher but I still get a feel for what these teachers are dealing with when I see the kids on the street. Maybe if we understood the value of teachers and the effect that they have on our children, we would understand that they are extremely under paid. We have all of these CEOs and other executives that are paid high salaries and their jobs don’t have nearly the effect on society as the job of a teacher. If we increse the salaries of teachers we probably would attract individuals who would have a positive effect on our children,smaller dropout rate, more children going to college and could live in a better society.

By NICK

August 2, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Unless I was working in an all white and wealthy school district, $100,000 would not cut it for all the B.S. (non English speaking illegals and black attitudes and violence)one would have to deal with EVERYDAY.

Your best bet is to send your kids to private school, where they will be challenged academically.

By Non Teacher

August 2, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

I came out of UGA with a 5 year professional degree in Landscape architecture and only got 33K with 10 days of sick/vacation. Teachers get two weeks + off for Christmas, 3 days for Thanksgiving, Fall and/or spring break, and then there is the monster time off at summer. I also work more hours and have just as much stress (as any job) dealing with demanding clients and idiot government workers.

By JW

August 2, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

No one is forcing someone to teach at gunpoint. Those who have chosen to teach know the salaries, work conditions, and risk/reward. Consider that teacher retirement in better counties is significant. Such pensions are seldom offered in the non-government world. A number of counties’s school systems were able to opt out of Social Security years ago. That savings is well deployed into effective retirement. Most of us in the private sector do not have that advantage. I have made my choice; teachers have made theirs.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

“Teachers, police and firemen have been told by our society that they arent really that important. Why? Because they dont make anyone any money.”

Few would suggest that they’re unimportant. However, if you want them to make more money, you’ll have to pay more taxes. Are you willing to give up more of your pay to better compensate public servants?

By Joe

August 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Teachers negotiate their salaries collectively and fight any performance based pay. Unlike the corporate world where there is a free market for talent that rewards high performers, the worst teachers are paid as much as the best teachers with the same number of years in the field. As long as unions and collective negotiations exist, teachers will be viewed as a common, undifferentiated commodity. Thus, the best will be underpaid and the worst will be overpaid, which benefits only the weakest links in the field. I also feel that urban schools fail not because of teachers or resources, but because of the students and their families. There is only so much a teacher can do in 6 hours. If the students’ parent do not instill the value of an education, discipline, and a work ethic, than the teachers are basically set up for failure. Parents and community advocates can blame the school systems all they want, but ultimately the responsibilities fall on the parents and the students.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Teachers negotiate their salaries collectively and fight any performance based pay. Unlike the corporate world where there is a free market for talent that rewards high performers, the worst teachers are paid as much as the best teachers with the same number of years in the field. As long as unions and collective negotiations exist, teachers will be viewed as a common, undifferentiated commodity. Thus, the best will be underpaid and the worst will be overpaid, which benefits only the weakest links in the field. I also feel that urban schools fail not because of teachers or resources, but because of the students and their families. There is only so much a teacher can do in 6 hours. If the students’ parent do not instill the value of an education, discipline, and a work ethic, than the teachers are basically set up for failure. Parents and community advocates can blame the school systems all they want, but ultimately the responsibilities fall on the parents and the students.

By Sarah

August 2, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

I think they key word was also “new” hires. There are veteran teachers with Master’s degrees who still do not make 40K a year.

By cr

August 2, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

They are overpayed at 40k fresh out of school. It should to take them 10 years to work up to that salary. If the jobs so bad why don’t they work somewhere else…. What I thought it must be the best job around !

By GOB

August 2, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Few would suggest that they’re unimportant. However, if you want them to make more money, you’ll have to pay more taxes. Are you willing to give up more of your pay to better compensate public servants?

I think they are given lip-service about being important, but when it comes down to it, we dont do the things that SHOW that they are truly important.

I would absolutly be willing to have a higher tax rate to pay the people who are dedicating their lives to making our communities a better place to live. It becomes a cycle. The more educated a community is, the better it will perform. That brings jobs, and economic growth, which will benefit me. The same can be said for a safe community.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

“We have all of these CEOs and other executives that are paid high salaries and their jobs don’t have nearly the effect on society as the job of a teacher.”

I’ll admit, CEO pay has gotten out of control, but they do have a major effect on society. If a CEO doesn’t keep his company profitable, its stock tumbles. This stock is part of larger portfolios managed by mutual funds, 401(k)’s, pensions, trusts, endowments, amateur investors. Therefore, if a CEO doesn’t do his job well, you and I could potentially lose money we depend on for living expenses and retirement.

By SteveAtlGa

August 2, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

They earn every penny of it. I have seen some of the other parents at the school and the disrespect of some students, not to mention of political BS. Think about it - forced to forego some pay because of low test scores - yep, blame the teachers as usual …..It’s time we adequately fund schools and teachers in order to prepare our kids for the future!

By Moffdaddy

August 2, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

Get Real MF In 1996, after 10 years of getting cursed, watching criminals prey on the unsuspecting and innocent, working three jobs to make ends meet, I gave up on my 65 hour-a-week teaching job. I had three degrees and almost made $30K my last year. My first year outside of teaching I made $40K and now I make more than a principal…not to mention considerably better benefits.

While teaching, I rarely got to eat lunch, had to run to the bathroom, and frequently worked a 12 day. My first principal hired me not because of my Graduate training but due to combat experience while serving with the 101st.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Moff:

Eyah, combat experience is a DEFINITE need for someone going into their first year teaching.

I was in a classroom in Randolph that made me WISH I had been in Iraq (and that is even more ironic when you realize that I was LITERALLY 18 hrs away from signing the dotted line and doing just that when I got my first teaching job!)

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

jct—

I agree with you whole-heartedly. You are absolutely right in every way. I think that extra “luring” cash would be much better spent in rewarding veteran teachers through merit pay, or even a graduated system of becoming “senior” or “expert” or “master” teachers. There have been some stabs at it (National Board Certification, for one). But these outside programs—along with higher degrees—don’t always directly correllate with what a teacher does daily, or how he/she makes his/her school a better place. (And some higher degrees are literally purchased online.) But that whole system just a pipe dream of mine.

And to answer your question, no, those “perks” would not make me stay in a job I didn’t like. I was merely pointing those things out to let folks outside education know that a $40k teaching job pays even a little less than what a $40K job in the private sector might involve.

I admit, I went on somewhat of a rant. It’s just frustrating to hear someone imply that teachers may be paid too much. That’s just not true.

And to those who have the “you picked the job” argument: what will our country be like when all the good teachers get fed up and leave? Why should someone have to take a vow of poverty and offer up a life of sacrifice to be a teacher? Like someone said above, don’t we want teaching to be a desirable job? Even if you choose to send your own children to private school (and trust me, private school teaching is no walk in the park, and most positions pay significantly LESS that public school jobs, so why do you think you’re getting a higher quality education?) you will still work/interact/do business with public school educated people. And your life will be better if they are educated well.

By JustMe

August 2, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Joe,

You are certainly not a GA person and are really a complete idiot! Teachers in no way negotiate their pay collectively!!! What planet are you on?

It constantly amazes me how many idiots have stupid ideas in their heads that are base-less.

The State of GA contributes to teacher pay. That is set by the State politicans and have nothing to do with any teacher or teacher group. Then, the individual school system contributes to that amount based on property taxes (which is why there is some variance between school systems for teacher pay). Again, no teacher or teacher group contributes to set that dollar amount, either.

Finally, teachers do not want ‘performance based’ pay scales because the so-called performance that is measured isn’t the teacher’s, but the student’s!!!! What other profession would do such a stupid thing?

A doctor gets paid for surgery, regardless of what happens to the patient. A fireman gets paid regardless if the fire is put out quickly or slowly. A computer programmer gets paid the same regardless if the code is eloquant or not.

You can put a great teacher in front of idiot kids that have no regard for learning and no respect for adults and the idiot kids will still not learn. Yet, you want to judge/pay the great teacher based on that?

By TinaTeach

August 2, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

I’ve only been in the system as a Teacher for a year. I teach an extra class than most teachers (which gets me about an eighth more pay than my base salary). I have to also deal with a shrinking planning period due to duties that are assigned to us by admins that don’t seem to care that I only have 60 mins a day to plan verses others who have 90-110 minutes. As a result I work 10 hour days and often through lunch. I redid my plans this year and know teachers who redo theirs every two or three in order to keep themselves abreast or keep the kids interested.

We also work pre-planning and post-planning days that are so packed with meetings that we have little time to get ready for open house or for the first day of school.

Parents come in promising to shape their kids up and then laugh with their kid on the way out. Kids will fall asleep or just not pay attention and then complain that I should help them pass at the end of the semester/change /give them thier grade because their parents pay my salary. These are the cons

This past summer I worked on a committee that helped to reorganize the way our kids go to class/get tutoring this year. I also tutored a girl who was out second semester with a serious injury/illness and lost more in gas money than money I made but she passed and is now in one of my advanced level classes. I enjoy working with my department.

I get to hear kids thank me (few believe me do and mean it) for helping them.
These are the pros.

Do I wish that I didn’t teach. Sometimes but more often than not I wish that the conditions would improve and that parents would take some weight off our shoulders. I also wish the pay was better but it’s not everything gtfan Georgia is not a Right to Work state. A teacher can lose thier job for any reason the admins see fit. If they are proven not to be effective then they lose thier job. We do not enjoy the benefit of tenure.

By cpginga

August 2, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Holy crap. I am sick and tired of people b*** and complaining about my teaching salary. I work damn hard for my money - teaching some of your moronic kids that don’t know how to behave in society at the High School level. I should get paid combat pay for that.

Do I make 40k? Damn right I do. But I also coach 2 sports, work Saturday detentions school and tutor in the afternoon. Yes, Saturday detention school for High School kids that don’t know how to behave. That’s sad. I think you, as the parent, should have to come too. But that’s a whole other story.

To all those that b*** at me. Suck it. Go back to school and get a teaching degree. Be prepared to work until 11pm, grading papers, marking assignments, making lesson plans, inputing grades, etc. and Oh yea.. go back to school full time at night to get your Masters Degree. Have a family? Sure - combine that in there too.

Did I tell you I owe $38,000 in loans for my undergraduate degree, not to mention another $18,000 for my graduate degree that I am still working on.

Get over it people.

Let’s swap jobs. Try teaching for 1 week. Guaranteed you will think twice.

-cpginga@yahoo.com

By jaxman

August 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

What are the pay supplments for coaching football, basketball, etc?

By Christy

August 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

When you consider that starting salary for Assistant District Attorneys in the State of Georgia is $38,124.00, a position that requires three years of law school and a full twelve month work plus unpaid over time when prepping for trials, $40,000 a year for a bachelor’s degree doesn’t seem too bad.

By cpginga

August 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

… and while I am at it, let me rant a little more.

I don’t appreciate neither my name, nor my salary blasted on the internet for all to see. It’s no one’s business how little I make as a teacher.

-cpginga

By JustMe

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Tina, I agree with you all of the way, except for one thing. GA is a “Right to Work” State. This means that a worker can quit for any reason and also an employer can fire you for any reason.

This is what makes any sort of worker union useless in the State of GA (that explains why there are none here). Unions leverage their power through threats of walk outs, strikes, etc. However, GA law makes that impossible because legally, the company can simply hire others and fire you without cause. In States like Michigan, the State law is such that the company cannot fire you if you have the backing of the union. The union supports the workers and the worker rights.

To make matters worse in GA, teachers are really considered State employees. GA State law makes State employees basically slaves without any worker rights at all.

By Frat Boy

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

I was a complete partier and stoner in high school and my one year of college. I never tried hard at anything in my life. I drifted through my early twenties doing odd jobs here and there. I finally grew up and got some motivation around 25. Today Im 29 years old and made $126k last year in technology sales. I know nothing about technology, havent attended a single class, just happen to have some charisma and charm and I put in long hours when need be.

My point? We all CHOOSE the path we take. There are lots of options for everyone. Teachers choose to be teachers, and thus choose what goes with it. Public service has never been a high paying field and it never will be. If thats what you are looking for, do something else, because you are in it for the wrong reasons.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

What are the pay supplments for coaching football, basketball, etc?

In Cobb, the varsity football coach gets about $7K a year. The assistant supplement is around $3K. The catch, however, is that there are only 3 or 4 assistant supplements, and at my school, 10 coaches. That means that almost all the coaches are getting a half or a third of the supplement at best.

I coached football last year for $500. We went from 4-7:30 everyday. That was field time. Cleaning up, getting the kids back inside, making sure they all got home was after that. Then there were game days. Get to school around 7:30, get home around midnight. I did the math once, and it came out to something like $0.60/hour.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

So JustMe, your local GAE reps does not negotiate with the local school boards on teacher raises and salaries? If that is the case, you deserve to earn even less than the average. I simply find that hard to believe. On the state level, I find it hard to believe that there are not lobbyists from the GAE lobbying for higher salaries. Working in finance and product marketing, you are evaluated on how well your forecasts and evaluations pan out. I can cry all I want about unforseen changes in the economy or cry about people not buying enough of the product that is being marketed, but at the end of the day most companies and workers are based on performance. Teachers should be evaluated based on yearly improvements or exceeding set goals that are specific to the teacher and the school he/she teaches within. That is how the real world works. Compete or move on. If you complain so much about the pay and education field, change jobs. Apparently you aren’t cut out for your field.

By theBiscuit

August 2, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Well welcome to the real world. No individual work 9-5 jobs in any field. I dont support this “minimum wage” increase because it won’t improve schooling. There are 2 types of teachers, those that are passionate and those that teach for summers off. The latter don’t do the extras and are not worth the 40k. The ones that are passionate, stay after school are worth 1 1/2 to two times that.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Joe:

And what, praytell, should those goals be? Things such as “I will give x number of tests this year” or “Z% of students will pass the EOCT this year”?

The first example is something entirely within a teacher’s control - and even that is iffy, since some schools have a set number of tests a teacher can give.

The second example is something that the teacher has precisly ZERO control over.

Just as the my coworker is not responsible for the outcome of MY project, neither should a teacher be responsible for the outcome of someone else’s decisions.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Biscuit:

The passionate ones are the very ones you are driving away in droves.

I am a prime example. You will NOT find someone more passionate about teaching than me. But I no longer teach, and it is PURELY due to people such as the non-teachers that have posted here today.

By Christy

August 2, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Georgia is a right to work state, but every public school teacher in the state of Georgia signs a CONTRACT which gives them certain rights and includes the stipulation that they can only be fired for cause. Your average worker does not have a contract which makes him a “right to work” employee and can be fired legally at any time for any non-discriminatory cause.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

In the business world, there are goals for revenue, units sold, market share, earnings per share. A CMO, CEO, CFO can say they can only control so much and external market conditions can impact results. However at the end they are judged by their results. Why not have goals and incentives for test scores and number of students advancing to the next grade. Why not use historical data from specific school to develop a calculation to set goals? It works in the real world. It drives down complacency and keeps the teachers focused. However, if teachers want to be viewed as interchangeable part and commodities, then so be it.

By Pedagogue

August 2, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

If teaching is such a sucky no-respect low-pay job, then why did you CHOOSE to major in it at university? I noticed at an august institution of higher learning that most of the Education majors were not the high-intelligence students. This was a major in which they could get their degree with ease, just as easily secure a government job — and then pizz & moan about how they don’t get no respect and few dollars. BFH*

By JohnR

August 2, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

My only comment to those who don’t think teachers earn the pay is to put your effort where your mouth is. I will permit anyone who wishes to give it a try the opportunity. You arrange with your job to be out 2 or 3 weeks and come teach at my high school. One week isn’t long enough. I’ll get you started and then you’ll have to create the lessons, teach the kids, discipline the kids, call the parents, go to meetings, the whole deal. You do it all and then make your decision as to whether $40K, pretax is too much.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Joe - The principal at a school is treated much like the CEO of a company. If the school continues to struggle, they are out. Your idea is the equivalent of making a systems analyst yearly review based on how the stock performs.

And how would you even begin to set up those kinds of goals for teachers outside of the core classes? Is the art teacher going to be judged on the quality of the clay pot the kid made?

In end though, Jeff is right. You cant hold teachers responsible for the decisions of their students.

By Blind Homer

August 2, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

I think that after about 5 years the good teachers should start making more like $60K, but all the incompetent ones should be fired. On a separate issue, your student loan balances have nothing to do with your pay. You can do the first four years at any Georgia school for room and board with the HOPE, and as an adult, you’ll always pay room and board anyway.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Joe:

The timber needed for your company to build the baseball bat didn’t WILLFULLY decide not to show up. Neither did it WILLFULLY refuse to be made into a baseball bat. Had it, no one could blame you.

Students do BOTH of these type things. So why do teachers get blamed?

By Artie

August 2, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Teachers are nothing but glorified babysitters!!!!! I do like the fact that they keep the young riff-raff off the streets for at least part of the year.

By ihateteachers

August 2, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Did someone tell the teachers they were going to make more when they started going to school for their education degree? Why do they complain so much when they should have done their research before starting that career. It’s all over the news that they don;t make “much.” I had a good idea what I would make after getting out of engineering school so I have no complaints.

By NEF

August 2, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

I was a teacher for nine years and I left two years ago, believe me, the business world is much easier.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

GOB, if you or other teachers do not want to be responsible for performance than you will continue to have the same salaries and continue to whine and complain about your salaries.

Jeff, here it is in the real world. If my job is predict whether the timber will show up and it doesn’t, then i could be out of a job regardless. That is accountability. Something you WILLINGLY defer. Therefore, work your 9 months, while the rest of the world is accountable and works 12 months.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

“You do it all and then make your decision as to whether $40K, pretax is too much.”

It doesn’t matter how much effort you, personally, put into teaching, because as long as schools are run by the government, you will only be paid as much as the least qualified teacher. Under a totally privatized educational system, people would pay more tuition to send their kids to a school full of hardworking teachers like you. Cosequently, you could demand—and secure—a higher salary, as you would be a key component of your school’s profitability.

By just a teacher

August 2, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Bridget has disappointed yet again, and I’m not even talking about the pathetic nine months comment. When you ask teachers (not former teachers or those who are leaving the profession) about their concerns, very few will start with salary. We don’t go into teaching for the money, cleary. We get it. It’s only when we’re asked to comment about salary that these issues come up and then Average Joe Moron tells us to quit whining. We didn’t start the whining; we’re just offering some insight. And please, no more of the stupid business model “solutions”! Education is not a commodity to be bought and sold like toothpaste or uranium. Children are not widgets and I sure as hell am not a widget-maker.

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

In all this dialogue the larger issue has now come to the surface:

The schools have become a culture of disrespect.

When someone in authority (like a teacher) tries to conduct himself with dignity and respect, he/she is scoffed at, and often mocked as an incompetent.

On the flip side, when a parent walks into a conference, a once-bitten-twice-shy teacher often begins on the offensive, expecting this parent to scoff just like the one before.

Then, that parent who may have been entering with an attitude of respectful kindness and team-building is hurt, outraged, and scared, and becomes another one of the scoffing parents.

That parent then takes it out on the next teacher, who is still dewy-eyed and optimistic, and another bitter educator is created.

And the cycle continues…

In the interest of the children, the adults need to break the cycle. We need to quit assuming the worst of every parent/teacher/student we meet. We need to make a deliberate, mature choice to keep an open mind and meet people where/when they are. We might just be surprised to find out that most teachers are not bitter, evil, child-hating complainers and most parents are not haughty, arrogant, and demanding, only raising their kids to be disrespectful brats.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Joe:

A teacher’s job is not to predict what a student will do. A teacher’s job is more akin to manufacturing: We take raw material (in our case, in WHATEVER fashion it comes in) and TRY to make solid, reliable, dependable finished product.

The problem is that our material can CHOOSE what it wants to be, and what IT chooses, so shall it be, REGARDLESS of how hard we work.

I have ZERO problem being accountable for those things which I alone control. The problem with this is that FEW non-teachers realize just how little I alone control. (A great example: T’s class has its own thermostat. You would logically assume that she could control it. WRONG Janitor came by yesterday and turned it up, saying that all thermostats in the building had to be set to x degrees.

By TinaTeach

August 2, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

JustMe Thanks for the correction. My husband’s studing to be a lawyer and I still get some of the things he says confused!

By John

August 2, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

I recently hired an I.S. trainee with a B.B.A. straight out of college for $48,000.00 a year. I teach him everything and I am thrilled to have him at that price. No teachers don’t make enough. School is not babysitting.

By luvs2teach

August 2, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

I feel a rant coming on!

Some of you people are simply clueless. You think you know all because you once sat in a classroom, or spent some time in your child’s school.

You think we have a union in Georgia, you think we have collective bargaining, and you think we have tenure. Well, we don’t.

You think that teachers show up just before the kids, order them around, and spend their planning time smoking in the teachers’ lounge. You think we blow out of the parking lot right after the buses at 3:00.

You think we spend our summers off by the pool laughing at the idiots who have to work all summer long.

And then you think we have nothing better to do than to complain about our students, their parents, and our paycheck.

Well, reality check, kids - it’s not like that. NOT AT ALL!

Now, regular bloggers know that I have gone on record in the past as saying that I had few compaints about my pay or benefits, and that remains true. It’s not great, but it’s not bad, and I DID know what I was getting into.

It was also a decision that I did not take lightly - I talked myself out of education for 10 years before I fianlly made the switch, and it was for all the resons mentioned by other posters above.

I have a science degree, not an education degree (it actually cost me a couple thousand dollars to make the switch to ed.) I was making $80,000 + in pharmaceutical sales. I had the corporate dream job. I hated every freakin’ minute of it (even now, fabric covered partitions give me hives, LOL).

I made the decision and I remain happy with it - but it’s not because of the salary or the time off. It’s because I’m d@mn good at what I do, and I love it - I can’t imagine doing anything else. I am not alone. There are down sides - lunch w/the kids and no time for restroom breaks being a couple already mentioned.

Since I did both (and had my own business - and I was in the service), I can say I work more outside of the “office” as a teacher than I did in corporate America (but probably not as much as having my own business). Most of my non-teaching friends (and that includes a lawyer and a CPA) work far less outside of the office than I do as a teacher. I’m always seeing things I could use or thinking of new ideas - I NEVER did that when I was in sales.

But that’s just my experience…

The question had to do with starting pay - many of you are missing the point - fewer people are choosing education as a route - many graduates have other options that may appear to be more lucrative. If we want the best and brightest to prepare our best and brightest than we might want to think about ponying up the duckies.

Sam Cunningham and GOB said all I could’ve said and more.

And to those of you who have jobs that don’t have summers off or make that much starting pay - well, that was your choice, live with it.

And those of you in customer service should understand that the problems we have with public schools are because we are dealing with the public, LOL

HAGD, y’all :-)

By catlady

August 2, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Tina! Where do you teach? Our elementary teachers get 25 minutes of planning IF WE ARE LUCKY. Middle school teachers get an hour and a half. High school teachers generally get over 2 hours. We are told that we also have planning after the students leave, but most days that time is taken up by idiot meetings. I would like to see more even-ness of workload for differing grade levels.

Amen, Just a teacher!

I have never met anyone who left teaching who is sorry. Why?

And about the pay: when you are 22 and from a middle class family, making 40 K starting out seems like a lot of money. What you don’t realize is that you don’t get anything near 40K. Now, all new grads find this out, but for teaching in addition to FICA, taxes, etc., there is also a substantial amount taken out for teacher retirement. While one day you should get it back, it really cuts the ole paycheck by a large percentage. THEN, you find out what you remember about school isn’t exactly true anymore! It looked so good, until YOU became the teacher and found out what goes on behind the scenes.

By luvs2teach

August 2, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

So I’m guessing that most of you non-teachers complaining about how little we work for the money we get are in support of year round schools?

I didn’t think so.

For those of you out there who are not teachers - WHY NOT?

If what we do is so easy and obviously worthwhile then why don’t you do it?

Seriously - I’m not being snarky - I want to know what is keeping all of you who are not teachers from doing it(I know the reasons that I had for not doing it - and I found that they were annoying but not enough to ultimately keep me from something I love).

Again, seriously - if “$40,000 for “only” 9 months of work” is such a great deal, then why aren’t you doing it? Or talking your kids into it? Or telling your friends about this great deal?

Why?

By Sarah

August 2, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

I worked in Cobb for five years. 40k won’t be enough to keep all these teachers. I left and it’s the best thing I ever did. They will have to do more to keep teachers. I make less money now than I would have in Cobb but the working environment more than makes up for it. Teachers teach because they want to, not for the money. We don’t make a lot and we do work a lot of hours and even on summer break we are rarely doing anything without the thought of our classrooms in our mind. We are constantly planning and thinking how we can help kids. It’s not the money we want. I can’t imagine doing anything else…just glad it’s no longer in Cobb County. All I can say is I hope that they can keep those people. 100k wouldn’t do it for me.

By mom3boys

August 2, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Nine months of work??? How do you figure? We go til the end of May, and return in August at the beginning…that is 10 months. We don’t get paid for the other two months, but our checks are spread over 12 months. The pay is not bad; especially the raises that come w/ added degrees. However, given how much to do/deal with, it’s earned: every penny. What isn’t fair is that the pay is the same in nice schools w/ better behaved kids and involved parents as in unsafe schools where only the teachers care.

BTW>>>bonuses for sped teachers?? Maybe I would have stayed for that one!!

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Fellow Teachers, Think About This:

Instead of comparing ourselves to factory workers, why not compare ourselves to other professions such as lawyers, accountants, and doctors?

Instead of a pay system based solely on time served or degrees earned, and instead of so-called “merit pay” based on student outcomes alone (manufacturing mindset), why not a graduated professional system?

In other words, a hierarchy of teachers, from novice to master, based on real teacher performance, and how that teacher’s performance impacts the school community. We would use an amalgam of real, classroom-impacting practices in determining a teacher’s level, much like a junior associate works his way up to senior partner in a law firm. Such practices that would take a teacher up the ranks could be:

—school-specific curriculum writing —conducting empirical research and reporting findings to colleagues or even publishing —mentoring new teachers —developing and implementing strategies/programs at your local school to address specific student needs there —participating in professional development (conferences, graduate work, etc.) and redelivering it to your colleagues in a relevant way —participating in periodic “job swapping” for an hour or a day with others in your school—from the cafeteria people to teachers of other grades/subjects, to counselors, custodians, principal, etc. With the goal building colleagiality and whole team-building —Anecdotal review of performance by superiors, peers, and possibly even students

The list could go on. These individual tasks wouldn’t be pay-earning, but together they would be part of moving a teacher from a novice to a seasoned, master professional. And instead of the schools being run by people who have left the classroom, the most senior members of a faculty would be the master teachers.

If we want to be treated like professionals, we need to start acting like them.

And though I hate to admit it, I think much of the reason we aren’t respected as a group is our own fault. Throughout history through collective bargaining and other political moves, we have behaved more like factory workers than doctors, and we are considered thusly. It hurts.

By Sherri

August 2, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

I tell you complainers what… I’ll take your job and do it for 9 months while you take my special education job and do what I do for 9 months. That seems fair :)

By just a teacher

August 2, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

luvs - I totally feel you. I think the most likely reason they won’t teach is that they think we are brainless idiots who are lucky to have gainful employment at all. In their sad little worlds, money is the only marker of personal worth or fulfillment so clearly, a teacher must have no ambition or talent. Sigh. That’s all I can stomach for today; I have to go beat my head against the wall.

By HS Sp Ed Teacher

August 2, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I work 50 hours per week the majority of the school year. Add on all the Sp Ed paperwork = extra 2 hours per day in March, April, and May.

I spent 4 weeks this summer taking classes to keep my teaching certificate active. June 07 was my last day of school, and Aug 01 (yesterday) was my first day back, Summer is not as long as many think. And, we do not get paid for holiday, vacation, or get holidays off with pay as some people assume.

After 26 years, I still love what i do and look forward to students coming in the next few days.

Maybe your family will be lucky and get ME as your teen’s teacher instead of a TAPP teacher. They have a 4 year degree in anything, take classes on the side, and in 2 years are certified. Just think, a lot of students will have teachers like that. Or maybe, your teen will have a substitute.

By luvs2teach

August 2, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Elaine - great posts! I wrote about a similar job and pay structure about a year ago - I read about it in ENCfocus (I think) - it’s a very good point!

Fact of the matter is that the same pay across grade is actually unfair to us - as much as some want to say it’s a benefit as a guarantee.

One example cited - teachers at hard vs. easy schools: same time in = same pay.

Teachers in high demand subject areas may get a signing bonus or student loan forbearance, but again: same time in = same pay.

In my system a middle school teacher could teach 4 classes a day or 5 classes a day - all maxed at 28. A gifted teacher’s class is maxed at 21. SPED and ESOL even fewer. So you could have a regular ed teacher teaching 140 and a gifted teacher in the same school teaching 84. Yet: same time in = same pay.

Then you have the teachers that parents request - you know who they are - and the teachers no one wants - you know who they are, too. Yet again: same time in = same pay.

To Jay - you’d be surprised to know that I actually support the idea of privatization. I don’t think it will ever happen though. Too many people who are not teachers have maintaining the status quo in their best interest.

I don’t mind the idea of accountability, however, I want it to be things I can control. I can’t control whether parents keep their child home to babysit younger siblings, translate for the parents, help the parents at work, or because the parents overslept and don’t have time to take the kids to school - all real excuses I heard this year (and froma variety of ethnic/economic backgrounds).

By catlady

August 2, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

• Throughout history through collective bargaining and other political moves, we have behaved more like factory workers than doctors, and we are considered thusly.*

I’d add that when teaching became work for women, it lost any claim to adequate professional level pay, IMHO.

On the subject of coaches/sponsors pay, does anyone know the male/female ratio on this? In my county, virtually none of those who get extra pay of this type are female.

Also, in other counties, do you have teachers who negotiate their pay on an hourly basis, even if they are full-time? I am thinking of teachers in specialty fields, and wondering if this is common.

If we want to be treated like professionals, we need to start acting like them.

I think we do ACT like professions, but we don’t demand to be TREATED like them. Example: our input is requested. We give it. The administrators do what they had planned to do anyway. Why aren’t we raising the roof? Example: more dipshtz stuff gets added to our responsibilities, displacing collaborative time, lunch time, planning time, and we complain quietly and do it anyway because we are told we “aren’t in it for the children” if we don’t. Why don’t we call them on that? (It is the old “you aren’t supporting the troops if you don’t agree with the war” method of keeping us in line).

By iron maiden

August 2, 2007 6:15 PM | Link to this

Reality check: When I went to work for Cobb 16 years ago, I was allotted $150 for supplies. To date it is the same - which is $150 more than many counties. The salaries are okay, but not okay with the expensive additional cost of classroom materials. Not to mention the huge increase in medical costs every year that almost outstrip any hypothetical raise. Also, who can manage to stay in the classroom for 30 years to get that 60% retirement? I’m sure those lucky enough to get well-paid jobs in high-risk schools are sailing through with no problem. I will feel fortunate to make it to 25 years. Georgia teacher retirement age is also one of the worst in the nation.

By CaneFF

August 2, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

HS Sp Ed Teacher

Don’t bash the TAPP program. Sounds like you’ve had a bad experience. From personal experience I’ve found the majority of the TAPP teachers I know work their %!@ off teaching full-time and taking the additional classes to get their full certificate. They come in with a fresh attitude and bring new ideas, the ability to think “outside the box” which apparently our teaching universities don’t teach anymore!

Of course bad apples come in every bunch…

By Michael

August 2, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

I have worked as a teacher and as a cube dweller in the past 10 years. Teachers work harder in thier 10 months than the corporatists do in two years combined. Yes, there are lazy people in all industries; including teaching, but teachers earn their pay.

By ateacher

August 2, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this

Let me just say this! You people who are complaining about teachers need to get your tails in the classroom and see what’s going on before you pass judgments. I dare say that it is your children that are brought up with everything they want who cause the biggest problems. I am there to teach your child (with empathy because they have parents who think they are “entitled” to everything) to become a better person who can contribute to the society they are living in. You didn’t choose teaching because it probably didn’t pay enough. I chose teaching when I only made $13,000 a year as a beginning teacher. Yes, my salary has climbed. Thank God, because it takes more and more out of my pocket to coerce my students to learn so that I pass the accountability test!

By C.R.H.

August 2, 2007 6:42 PM | Link to this

Whoopee damn doo…Cobb is starting UNDER $40K for new teachers. Keep in mind that CCBOE can afford to have a higher pay scale than MOST school systems. I started in Cobb back when they gave us science teachers a signing bonus of $1K and I got the $2500 3 year retention bonus also…and promptly got the hell out of there. I have an advanced degree and several years of teaching under my belt, so I was sitting in a “decent” place on the pay scale…but I still nearly doubled my salary when I jumped into the “Real World” as some of those posting have decided to call it. I currently enjoy being able to eat my lunch without disruption for a FULL HOUR instead of the 22 minutes I used to get. In the “Real World” I have also enjoyed such perks as being able to go to the restroom when nature calls. I have yet to get knocked down or swung at while trying to break up fights between people at work…come to think of it, there haven’t been any fights at work. I also haven’t had anyone leave obscenity laden messages on my voice-mail because they didn’t like something I have done. One of the biggest perks is that my boss actually acts like she values my contributions. I think I’ll stay in the “Real World” because that OTHER world wasn’t very rewarding.

By iron maiden

August 2, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

I’m out of special ed this year after 24 years. No amount of money could compensate for my feeling like one of Michael Vick’s victimized dogs.

By luvs2teach

August 2, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

Mary - I read about that study - I also read about all the things they didn’t include in their factoring.

BTW - remember the study about two years ago that showed the average American cubicle worker wasted about 2 hours a day?

I wish I had 30 minutes to waste…or 5 minutes to go to the “loo.”

(I KNOW - it was MY CHOICE…I’m trying to be lighthearted)

By OldSchool

August 2, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

I work under a 10 month contract and like all teachers, get paid only for the 190 days in a school year. Mind you, I’m not complaining…not at all.

This summer I was at school working- without any extra pay- on industry certification materials for which I will get nothing personally outside of a few PLUs required for recertification. I logged in an average of 27 hours each week.

It has taken me 33 years and advanced degrees to get to where I earn close to $65,000 (and that is because I teach extended day and have my whole career.) Unlike my daughters in the corporate world, I have never gotten a dime for an excellent performance evaluation (Now 2 each year with a year’s end followup).

My first year’s salary was a whopping 6k…even with the extended day.

But I’ll bet you dollars to donuts you corporate sorts don’t get a hug from a former employee and a thank you for giving them a real direction in life.

I do.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

Blah, Blah, Blah.

But it ain’t about the money! Right?—-Yeah right, I forgot it is all about the love of teaching.

With but few exceptions, Teachers in general are the largest single group of whiners I’ve ever heard and do nothing to improve their working conditions except whine.

Folks, If you aren’t happy with the pay get the hell out of the profession. It’s not like you didn’t know going in what the salaries were and what the working conditions were. You won’t though will you? Not no but HELL NO! The reason? Because your benefits far outweigh your salary. So quit whining you got it made. How many other professions can one retire from before 60 and start drawing a pension –then go back to work (part time mind you), leaching of taxpayers, doing the same thing and drawing a salary equal to or greater than what they were making when they retired? If the Social Security system goes broke it matters not to you. You get more sick days and personal days than any professionals I can imagine, have the absolute best maternity leave benefits and have some of the best insurance available. Hell, there are doctors in Gwinnett County that aren’t taking any new patients unless they work for the school system, some have even gone so far as to cull any patients that were not school employees. So Gimme a break here, will ya?

QUIT WHINING!! The average Joe really gets tired of hearing how bad you think you have it

By jimd

August 3, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

What is the average salary for Georgia workers with a college degree? High school diploma? High school dropout?

The U.S. Census Bureau reported that college definitely pays. Workers age 18 and over with a Bachelor’s degree earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. Workers without a high school diploma average $18,734. An advanced degree earns workers an average of $74,602. These data were collected in the Annual Social and Economic Supplement to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for 2004.

Current Population Surveys from 1998, 1999 and 2000 were used to estimate Synthetic Work-Life Earnings Estimates. These estimates show that over a lifetime (age 24-65), the differences in earned income are far more significant. Workers without a high school diploma will earn less than $1.0 million in their lifetime. Those with a high school diploma will earn $1.2 million. Workers with a Bachelor’s degree will earn $2.1 million and an advanced degree will earn 2.5 million.

Souce; http://www.dol.state.ga.us/js/faq_js.htm

The average teacher salary in Georgia for the 2003-04 school year was $45,848, up 0.7 percent from the previous year. Georgia ranked 6th in the nation for average beginning teacher salary, at $35,116, an increase of 3.4 percent from 2002-03.

Source; http://www.aft.org/salary/2004/download/releases/SalarySurvey-GA.pdf

Now factor in your benefits and then tell me just how bad it is

By Lee

August 3, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

Let’s see, where to begin….

As others have noted, that $40k salary is for 190 days. On an annualized basis, add about 25%, or $10k to that, which equates to a $50k annual salary. That $65k top pay scale for teachers will factor out to about $78k. This is before the local supplements kick in. All in all, not a bad salary out here in rural Georgia.

And don’t give me that crap about working 10-12 hours every day. Some of you do. Some of you don’t. Some of you get in a footrace everyday at 3:30 to see who can get to the cars first – you or the students. Just like us out here in the “real” world – some just put in the bare minimum, some go the extra mile.

Oh yeah, some of you posted about not even getting 5 minutes to go to the bathroom. Funny, especially during the school year when some of you regulars are on line posting to this blog about 20-30 times during the day.

For those of you complaining about spending your own money on supplies, the solution is simple – don’t do it. My wife has a garage full of junk that she has brought home from her classroom, yet, every year, she goes out and buys more stuff. How many pocket charts do you need, anyway? How much of this stuff are things that you WANT instead of absolutely NEED? There is a difference. I just bought a new digital voice recorder for my work. The tried and true pen and paper would have worked just as well, but I WANTED that new recorder. That said, why would schools offer to buy you anything when you voluntarily go out and buy it yourself every year?

There is a problem with the current salary scale. The problem is that it does not make a distinction between a PE teacher and a Chemistry teacher. If you were to conduct a market study of the two pay scales, that Chemistry teacher’s salary would probably be double that of the PE teacher. The AJC ran an article about a year ago where a PE teacher who had a Phd and about 30 years service was earning over $80k. That is insane. There is no way you can convince me that a PE teacher should make much more than the minimum salary.

That got me to thinking. I looked up the audit report for my local high school, and saw where the Head Football coach is listed as an “In School Suspension” teacher making over $75k per year. What a racket. He basically monitors a study hall and then goes out and coaches football for half the year.

I don’t think most of you teachers want market based rates. Yes, some would probably benefit, such as the chemistry teacher mentioned above. I think some would be in for a rude awakening.

One of the previous posters wrote ”If we want to be treated like professionals, we need to start acting like them. And though I hate to admit it, I think much of the reason we aren’t respected as a group is our own fault.” I tend to agree. Especially when I read some of these posts and an alleged teacher is calling people names such as “morons, idiots, little sonny Bubba, etc, etc”.

By TinaTeach

August 3, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

CatLady I teach in Rockdale at the high school level. We are on the block A/B day. 1st period meets every day for 55 minutes and then the other 6 periods switch off which days they meet. I work overtime and they gave me first period to plan so I get around an hour everyday (minus meetings and duties) teachers who do not do overtime get close to 110 minutes. Some who work overtime only have a planning period every other day. JustMe thanks for the correction

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

Hey there jimd - happy Friday!

IMO, I think the biggest group of whiners about pay are PILOTS - but since they have my life in their hands, I’ll grant them that exception!

…drumroll…and now all the pilots will chime in and explain why, in their opinion, they deserve every penny…and then others will chime in and say, “well, you knew what you were getting into when you took the job…” and round and round it goes.

We’re all the same - complaining is our national pasttime, second to baseball (and we love baseball so we can complain about the team). As another poster yesterday said, I don’t think we’re complaining as much as offering insight - or defending the accusations and correcting the misconceptions.

If you notice, most of the people who said the pay wasn’t worth it, no longer teach, and have no regrets. Others like OldSchool and catlady state that it’s not about the money, and I believe them - it comes through their posts.

It can’t be about the money, the benefits, or the time off - you’ll never make it. It also can’t be because you’re a starry eyed kid who thinks you’re going to change the world and “touch the future” - blech.

I think everyone who says “Well, you knew what you were getting into” is wrong - I don’t think ANY of us know what we’re getting into - not really. I have a friend who is a lawyer - his dad is a lawyer - he is still amazed at how BORING law is. He doesn’t really love it, but it pays the bills, and it’s better than being homeless. I have another friend who is a CPA - he thought he knew what he was getting into - tax season about killed him, and now he no longer practices tax accounting. Everyone in my platoon in the Marines thought they knew what they were getting into…I could go on.

I thought I knew what I was getting into with teaching - and I thought I had an advantage becuase I had actually spent time in schools on the other side of the chalk, so to speak, so I wasn’t a starry-eyed disillusioned ed major.

It still surprised me. I knew some, but I didn’t know all. Still don’t.

Someone yesterday also posted that most teachers liked school themselves -I know that’s true for me. I was shocked at how much some kids DESPISE it. In that same line of thinking, most of the posters here are drawing on their experiences as students in typical middle class schools and/or their experience as typical middle class parents who support their kids efforts. Someone commented on the vitriole towards parents - I have been shocked at some of the neglect and abuse I see - not towards all, but maybe 10% of my parents have been truly neglectful or abusive - and those 10% of kids were real problems. Taking off the rose-colored shades was a bummer.

As to some of your other comments, I get 3 personal days - I’ll get a 4th after my 15th (!) year - and at my other school we weren’t allowed to be out on Fridays or Mondays without a doctor’s note. I do accrue sick days, but it’s at a comparable rate to my other friends who work at large coporations - certainly much better than at a small company, I’ll grant that. The benefits are decent, but not nearly as good as they once were - i think that’s true across the board for all of us, teacher and non-teacher alike. I can’t retire until I’m 60, so I don’t know what you’re talking about there. Both my husband and I give to Social Security, and we both continue to do so, so that does concern me - we’re not resting on our laurels though - we both have other retirement money (IRAs, 401k, etc). Most teachers I know do. Teachers are not the only ones who can go back to work parttime and draw a pension - I don’t understand why that bugs you so much - and “leaching off the taxpayers” is a bit harsh - they’re WORKING. Able-bodied welfare recipients are leaching, IMO. I had my kids before I started teaching so I can’t speak to the maternity benefots except to say that teachers have to use their accrued sick days - as far as I know, that’s all you get. That’s why so many teachers try to have their babies in the summer.

Pay is 1000 times better than it used to be - but the job isn’t as “cushy” as the general public thinks. I asked this yesterday, and got no responses:

If $40,000 and summers off is so great, then why aren’t you teaching?

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

L2T:

I didn’t know that about maternity leave. I guess when T and I get ready to go there, I’ll have to make sure to try and give her an EXTRA special birthday present one year… (her birthday is in late Sept…)

Yeah, so we’ve been looking at finances, and guess what? AINT NO WAY we could make it if both of us were teachers. We’d NEVER get out of debt, and we’d NEVER be able to save any amount of money. (Right now we’re shooting to have at LEAST half our debt payed off in 3 yrs while also building a 5-10K savings account… even WITH me being in CS now, it AINT gonna be easy!)

By thomas

August 3, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

First off- I know they posted a link to this blog on the AJC homepage. But these blogs almost NEVER get over 100 postings in one day— UNLESS IT IS FROM PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SLAM TEACHERS.

Funny thing is— most of the haters have it wrong.

1) Teacher benefits suck. The benefits at my previous jobs were better than what I have now. 2) Pay is not really that high, given that many people have advanced degrees. These systems you see paying $40,000 a year starting out are actually places with tough working conditions. Places like Atlanta, Dekalb, Fulton, and Cobb. Cobb has a severe teacher retention problem, particularly in the South Cobb ghetto. Many of these new teachers who take these jobs don’t last. 3) Teachers don’t get lots of sick days and NONE get “vacation days”.

Let’s put the cards on the table here. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HATE TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS. We can “debate” these issues until next week, but nobody’s mind will be changed. Most people think teachers are lazy, stupid, worthless leeches.

This is why you had over 100 postings to this blog within a 24 hour period. Whenever the issue is slamming teachers and public schools or race is involved, you’ll see roaches coming out of the woodwork. Never do you see this kind of response for substantive issues or something of importance. Only hate and ignorance brings these people out.

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

thomas:

Here’s the first big AMEN of the day!

Congrats!

:P

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Lee - happy Friday to you, too!

I think 20 - 30 times is a bit of an exageration, now, don’t you? Speaking only for myself, I tend to post after school hours with two exceptions: 1 - during planning if I’m waiting on a parent or another meeting and I have nothing better to do - that happens occasionally. 2 - if I’m giving a test and I have nothing better to do (the kids think I’m e-mailing their parents about the tests - it’s hysterical).

There are plenty of non-teacher posters who post during their “working” hours - must be that 2 hours of timewasting that study showed :-)

I was one of the posts about the bathroom, but I was sort of kidding - it’s not that we never get to go - it’s that our bladders have to be on a schedule, just like the factory workers. When I worked in corporate, I heeded nature’s call whenever nature called - it just took some getting used to - and certain times of the month require more “preparation and planning” if you know what I mean.

One thing I sorely miss about the corporate world (and is the best part of teacher workdays): lunch hour! I miss not babysitting during lunch. I miss having good conversations uninterrupted by misbehaving children. I miss having an hour instead of 20 minutes!

My county is pretty good about supply money, and I’m a pretty good scrounger - my kids are usually pretty good about bringing things in for a lab if they know the alternative is bookwork, LOL. I still end up spending my money though (being a science teacher is expensive - all the more reason for a pay differential), granted some of it is on “wants” and not “needs.”

One thing that bugs me? Having to buy tissues. Talk about something that should be supplied! When my 2-3 donated boxes run out, I usually buy them (or steal a roll from the loo on my 5 minute break).

One thing that hasn’t been brought up - the changing role of women, and how they have more choices now.

When I was 4 (same year we landed on the moon - do the math), I said I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up. I was told, “No, you don’t sweetie, you want to be a teacher or a nurse.” And I only got those options because I liked school - my sister was told “you want to be a secretary until you get married.”

How times have changed. Now college-educated women have other choices outside of teaching, and those choices may not pay as much in the beginning (although until recently they usually did) but there is definitely room for growth. School systems are having to compete for those women, and some of theose women DON’T want to teach for precisely many of the reasons you read here. Add to the the level of disdain many people feel for the professional…it’s a large part of what kept me from it.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

In answer to your question—I’m smarter than most teachers in that I realize I’d never be able to deal with the “politics” of teaching without punching out some SA punk administrator, or I’d end up being fired for organizing teachers to stand up for their god given rights to be treated like humans by their employers.

I know the rebel within!

Now Luv, to adress a couple of other points.

Hey right back attcha, hope you’re having a wonderful vacation (lol)

Many school systems do have their own retirement plans other than SS. And as for the why teachers teach? Well let’s leave that old axiom alone lest we stir up Just Me.

As for knowing what they were getting into? I’ll give you many really had no clue, the point is that they certainly did after but a short while—and chose to remain when many could have chosen to go to the private sector and done much better financially as well as mentally and emotionally. So if it’s not the money, not a love of the profession, what exactly can we attribute that choice to? In all honesty i think we both know the answer to that question.

And as I recall didn’t pilots take some drastic pay cuts and offer up a lot of their benefits to keep their jobs? Let me just say that teachers going back as teachers is not what really sticks in my craw as much as teachers who have switched over to administartors—retire then go back at some “created” position drawing more pay then they were making when they were actually doing something.

Gotta get a bid out so I gotta go, But I’ll try to get back later.

HAGD.

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

L2T:

If it helps, you ARE younger than my mom! :P

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Jeff - definitely check with T’s system, but I know of two that maternity leave is based on your accrued days. There may be some short term disability involved as well, but it only kicks in after you use all your sick days.

I hear you on the finances - it’s tough particularly in the beginning, and especially if you have student loans (the bane of my existence actually - I will not allow either of my kids to take out student loans).

That’s another draw to teaching in a tough school - often your students loans are partially or completely forgiven…if you survive:-)

Thomas - a double AMEN to that. WE are an easy target - do you think we bring it on ourselves? (don’t answer that jimd!)

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

L2T:

T is in THE system that from what I hear EVERY teacher in the area wants to be in. Lisa knows exactly which one I am referring to.

The sad thing about the finances is that she doens’t have any students loans - but I have 21K worth. I’m totally with ya on the kids not allowed to get them though. I was an idiot. I didn’t NEED them. I used them to buy things and finance various trips I would go on. (Such as to Austin, TX, get a new laptop, etc etc. Think I may have used ONE of them to pay off a credit card - then proceeded to max out said credit card again. Ah, the things a naive teenager will get themselves into!!)

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Jeff - whew…I feel better…and you’re just a little older than my daughter (who’s a few months shy of legal drinking age).

jimd - “I know the rebel within!” hee hee

As to the infamous axiom - I always figured it referred to artists, writers and actors slumming it until their big break or the “great American novel” hit the shelves.

I see a lot of people either leave the profession (what are the stats about lasting 5 years?), or at least leave their school or system and move on to greener pastures. I think most - most - that stay past that initial 5 years really like the job, and are “called” to it. There are some that can’t do anything else, though, I’ll grant you that. I truly feel, however, based solely on empirical evidence from my own experiences as a student, teacher, and parent that those are in the minority.

Funny to think that once upon a time teaching was never meant to be a career - just something for young women to do until marriage (and you were forbidden from teaching once married).

I’m not knocking the pilots - they were just the first group that came to mind, and you’re right, they did make some concessions, which left me thinking…they are privatized, no? And I am someone extremely interested in the idea of a completely privatized school system (too much Ayn Rand - sorry)…I wonder if that’s the type of thing we would see under a completely privatized sytem. Certainly makes you wonder.

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Jeff - now they have the “$40,000 just cuz you’re in school” loan…

Bad…Bad…BAD

I’m with Clark Howard on those - run away, run as fast as you can!

Well, I’m off to school - dropping my “Sonny money” purchases off and seeing how badly the summer cleaning crew moved my stuff around :-)

Y’all play nice while I’m gone :0

By Lee

August 3, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Luvs, I was being half facetious and half serious with the comment about teachers posting 20-30 times per day. There are some people on here that say they are teachers and I see them posting a lot. Makes you wonder sometimes.

Me, I post on Tuesdays late and on my occasional off day. It’s not that I’m so much more ethical than the rest of you, it’s just that we’ve got an Information Resources department who have gotten very good at ferreting out those who abuse the internet. Since my views are not always “politically correct”, I think it prudent that I do my blogging on my own time.

I wish Bridget would open this blog up for more after hours and weekend blogging. But, I know the abuses that would envariably occur…

By jimd

August 3, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Lee,

There is more truth in your comments than you can even imagine. I know for a fact that I have a following on these blogs that consists of several teachers who read but don’t post.

By Kenn Young

August 3, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

Hi Bridget,

apart from the ajc.com jobs link, do you know of a way to search for teaching jobs, particularly provisional ones? I am in process of getting certification and am open to suggestions on how to find schools who would take a non-certified teacher.

thank you! Kenn Young

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Kenn:

Take it from someone who has an NT-4 himself:

Your best bet is to work at McDonald’s until you get a full certification.

HOWEVER, if you INSIST on searching for a teaching job:

Go to TeachGeorgia and search there. You may get some interviews, you may not. In my case, I got quite a few interviews - until they saw that I had an NT-4. SOME systems will still talk to you, others will not. From experience, be wary of the ones that do. But a job is a job, so be prepared to suffer through unimaginable HADES until you convert.

By Tony

August 3, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

Boy what a hot topic! This one gets personal Bridget. Teacher pay has been distorted in so many ways it is not even funny.

Within the responses, I read one post that cited the Heritage Foundation’s comparison of teacher pay to other professions. This “study” has been wrongly taken out of context many times. The original research comes with a disclaimer that states that it is not appropriate to use to draw conclusions about teacher pay. This study examined hourly pay and based the teacher’s hourly rate on 7.5 hours per day for 185 days a year. We had to subtract 30 minutes for lunch from the 8 hour day. The official work hours for most schools are based on the 8 hour day, but everyone knows teachers actually work much longer hours - for no overtime!

One poster stated that teachers who were incompetent were the ones who took too long to grade assignments. How stupid! Teachers who care about making sure the students are on track and excelling are the very ones who pore over assignments to give feedback to students. Incompetents are the ones who grade only using the textbook checklist of right answers.

Are teachers paid too much? NO. Are they paid enough? NO. The work done be effective teachers is priceless. Teacher’s benefits are another point of contention. Insurance and retirement aret he two biggest of these. Health insurance rates have skyrocketed and actual benefits have gone down. But,this is happening throughout the business world, too. We have no matching 401K plans for most systems, but the Georgia Teacher Retirement system is one of the best in the nation. This long term benefit should be very attractive when people stop to think about its long term value. One thing about benefits for teachers is that most teachers have no idea the amount being paid on their behalf by school systems. Nearly 30% of a person’s salary is the required contribution of the school system. This means that the $40,000 teacher actually costs around $52,000.

Oh I could go on. Teacher pay is not high enough for the expectations being placed upon them.

By Lee

August 3, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

Just an observation:

The couple of posts above regarding certification got me thinking….

Back in the 60’s, my mother was an elementary teacher. She did not have a college degree. I think she may have had one or two years of college, but she never finished. I think there were probably a lot of teachers, especially in the elementary grades, like that.

Today, we have PE teachers with Phd’s, Pre-k teachers with Master’s degrees, certification for this, certification for that, etc, etc,.

Seems to me that everyone in our schools are getting educated, except for the student.

Ya’ll think about that one for a while….

By Jeff

August 3, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

Lee:

Get your kid to sit down, shut up, pay attention, and LISTEN, and he’ll learn.

The problem with student learning is NOT that the teacher’s aint trying.

It is that the PARENTS aint.

By luvs2teach

August 3, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Lee - I remember reading the “Little House” series when I was younger, and was amazed when Laura Ingalls took her teaching test (which was quite rigorous as I recall) at the age of 15 or so to become a teacher.

Kenn - the Teach Georgia site is good; you can also try each individual systems websites. NT-4 is tough (I know; that’s what I did), but doable if you really want it. Most systems only hire in high need areas (math, science, & SPED usually). You might try subbing also.

By Lee

August 3, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff, the problem is that I have been paying attention and do not like what I see. Hence, I am now paying about $15k per year for private school due to the fact that our public school is such a train wreck.

But anyway. This blog is about teacher pay. The system is set up to reward teachers to get more and more degrees and certifications even though there is no justifiable reason to do so. As in my earlier post, is there any reason for a PE teacher to have a Phd. I don’t think so. Is there any reason for a Pre-K or Kindergarten teacher to have a Master’s degree. I don’t think so. My county is paying a coach $78k per year to be a “In school suspension” teacher. That, to me, is an outrage.

There is no correlation between a teacher’s salary and the value they bring to the organization. If there were, we wouldn’t be paying that PE teacher over $80k per year or a coach $78k per year to monitor a study hall.

The system imposes these crazy pay scales with no rhyme or reason. The system fails to implement even the most basic strategy of grouping by ability, which would do more for education than having every teacher have a Phd. It seems like the system does everything in it’s power to ensure that the student doesn’t learn.

…and when they don’t, it is the parents fault.

Yeah. Right.

By cobbmom

August 3, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

It boils down to this; some teachers do deserve more money, but alot don’t. There are alot of teachers out there that are totally incompetent. The few that aren’t are gold and should be rewarded. Unfortunately the incompetent make the same as the competent. And the incompetent are the ones that are going to hang around because any other career they’d be booted out of instead of having a guaranteed job/income. As for working 10 hours a day, not sure about that one as the school up the road from me, when my son was there the teachers were all gone by 3pm at the latest, and when we would have to be there at 7am for safety patrol, probably only about 10% of the teachers were there.
Also when in middle school, we spent probably over $40 in supplies for the class room at the beginning of the year. For one thing, I know each kid was told to bring in a big pack of the dry erase markers for class “donation”. Then as far as maternity leave goes, you have to realize in the private sector that the law does not provide for any paid maternity leave. In fact, if you have worked for somewhere for less than a year or work for a small business (less than 15 employees) you aren’t legally guaranteed any maternity leave. Your employer can require you to use your sick leave as part of your maternity leave.
My dad worked for the state of GA for over 25 years, he had a BS and never made over $43K/year. He never took a sick day and never used all his vacation days. He worked 12 months a year from 7am-5pm and ate his lunch (brought from home) at his desk.

By catlady

August 3, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

My county is paying the new “savior” football coach 90K per year, with only one class to teach. Now, I have the most degrees and experience possible (he does not), and I make NO WHERE near 90K. And I am lucky to get time to eat (quickly) and a half hour or less for planning. There are many other horror stories out there, just from my small county. WTH?

Problem with annualizing teacher salary: few places will hire a teacher for our summer time of 7-8 weeks. I know some teachers do “odd jobs” in the summer, but of course do not make significant money doing it. Then there is the whole recertification issue that can eat up your time pretty quickly. So, IMHO, the annualizing a 10 month salary for comparison purposes is pretty bogus. Sorta like pointing out that if YOU worked on Saturdays and Sundays, your annual salary would REALLY be $X, so that is what we should use to compare your salary to someone else’s.

Lee, my grandfather “passed” for a teacher with a 10th grade education. I know a number of former teachers 15 years older than I that got permanent certification here in GA on a high school diploma back in the day.

My county has a high proportion of teachers with advanced degrees. Looks pretty impressive till you see the names of the diploma mills they got them from.

I will miss many of you next week. It has been fun to correspond at will over the summer.

By just a teacher

August 3, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

My head still hurts from all the ignorance, but some of the comments have been heartening. (Thanks, Thomas!) Just a quick, obvious point: just because a teacher leaves the building doesn’t mean she is finished working. You can find my colleagues and me at Borders grading papers until they close with some some frequency.

Also, I want to restate that teachers RARELY initiate this conversation. But as Bridget’s yellow journalism headline reveals, when we’re baited, we fall for it.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

By the way Luv,

State employees in Ga. may retire at age 50 and unless I’m mistaken at 85% FOR LIFE. With the average life expectancey today they could actually draw more in retirement than they drew during their careers. (just something to think about)

By catlady

August 3, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

jim d, for us it is 60% of your two highest years’ salary, if you have worked 30 years (by their accounting). Anything less than 30 takes a 7% PER YEAR deduction. So if you retired at 28 years, instead of getting 56%,you get 46%, by my understanding. If, like me, you persist past 30 you get an additional 2% per year (Not the 7% you get docked if you leave before). So, at year 34 this year, I could get 68% of the avg of my two highest years. There is a maximum number of years you can claim—I think 40, or 80%.

Unlike our legislators, we don’t get to count working for a few months as a “year” toward retirement.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Damn,

is that right?

A teacher teaches for 25 years and retires at age 50 while drawing a salary of say 65k a year. They then draw a pension of 55k a year—85% of 65k— for the next 30 years.

And y’all don’t get paid enough? Hell, somebody quarantee me 85% of my current salary and I’d hang it up tommorow and move to the Caymans.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Actually cat you do.

Your retirement benefit is calculated by using the percentage of salary formula. Simply stated, two percent is multiplied by your years of creditable service, including partial years (not to exceed 40 years). This product is then multiplied by your average monthly salary for your two highest consecutive years of membership service.

Nine or more months of service within a fiscal year will equal a full year of service credit. Likewise, salary earned for nine or more months of service within a fiscal year will equal a full year of salary for calculating retirement benefits. Members who work under the semester system will be awarded one-eighth year of service credit for each month of membership service.

The salary earned during any eight or more months will also constitute a full year of salary. Limitations are placed on salary earned and salary increases when calculating retirement benefits.

In the event you do not have credit for two years of service within the two-year period, additional salaried months of your work history will be included to complete two years of service. The resulting product (2% x service x salary) is your monthly retirement benefit under the Maximum Plan of retirement.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

Cat,

You may also elect to recieve a PLOP.

Beginning July 1, 2004, at retirement, in addition to selecting Plan A (maximum plan) or Plan B (survivorship plan), you may also elect to receive a one time lump-sum distribution (cash payment) in addition to your monthly retirement benefit.

In exchange for a reduced lifetime monthly benefit, you can elect to receive a Partial Lump-Sum Option Plan (PLOP). Your age and plan of retirement are used to determine the reduction in your benefit.

A PLOP distribution will be made as a single payment at the time your first monthly benefit is paid. Based on the amount of the PLOP, your monthly retirement benefit is then reduced to be the actuarial equivalent of the retirement benefit without a lump-sum distribution. You cannot elect a PLOP that will reduce your monthly benefit by fifty percent or more of the benefit you are eligible to receive under Plan A

By jimd

August 3, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Tell ya what.

Someone give me a lump sum payment equal to 50% of a pension based upon the above formulas then continue to pay me a monthly strippend equal to 50% of my calculculated pension and watch how fast I’d be in the islands.

By jimd

August 3, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Alvin, you reading this? Here’s an opprotunity to get me out of Gwinnett county.

By Tony

August 3, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

Educators are not entitled to paid maternity leave unless they have accumulated sick days. They are entitled to Family Medical Leave - 12 weeks without pay.

As in business, this leave puts a burden on schools because a substitute must be hired who is qualified to be the teachers. The children’s education is interrupted because of the changes.

By Tony

August 3, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

Teachers/educators do not get 85% of their salary ever, much less at 50. Please stop with the lies.

By HS Teacher Too

August 3, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

Regarding work at home—the less competent the teacher, the longer it may take him or her to grade homework.

Okay folks, I am joining late and I apologize if this is old, but I have to say that I think the opposite of this is equally true: maybe not the most competent teachers, but certainly the BEST teachers often spend HOURS grading homework, putting detailed comments and constructive points to make homework more HELPFUL.

There is also the perspective that the best teachers — perhaps the most efficient hw graders — specifically adopt streamlined systems to make hw grading NOT take half the night.

It really depends on the goal of the assignment.

So please keep things like this in mind when you make generalizations — there are always multiple perspectives.

By Iteachtoo

August 3, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Now you’re just throwing numbers around - and not very carefully I might add. No one is giving away that retirement; we invest in our own retirement pay with a deduction from every paycheck.

And the original topic had to do with starting teachers salaries - which sound pretty good for a new grad but aren’t enough to keep a teacher if they can’t handle the challenging work environment. We need quality educators, but it practically takes a martyr mentality to stay in the profession.

By WhatWillBridgetDo?

August 3, 2007 6:15 PM | Link to this

Why would the AJC hire a TOTAL HACK as an education reporter, when she’s so ignorant of teaching conditions that she doesn’t even accurately report how many months a year they work?

Or maybe she’s just being a shill for the AJC and their “blame teachers first” mentality? (If we blame the teachers, it makes it easier to ignore the big picture of what’s wrong with education in Georgia, which goes along with the ACJ’s role as chief shill for the Chamber of Commerce.)

How else to explain how Bridget (and the AJC,) when given DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of illegal actions taken against teachers, turns a blind eye?

By h ryder

August 6, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this

One comment. If nothing else, the public schools provide very inexpensive childcare during day time hours and as an added bonus most of the children actually gain a rudimentary education.

By Calhoun

August 6, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Financialy speaking, Educators are not necessarilly educated in the area of finance. More money usually equals more debt. So more money is needed in order to keep up with debt. I’ve seen the expensive cars and what not.

By luvs2teach

August 6, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

jimd - I think you have our retirement confused - we belong to the Teachers Retirement System of Georgia - we’re not part of the regular state employee retirement

We can retire after 30 years of creditable service (for some, this is about age 51)- or - after ten years AND reching age 60 (that’s the category I’ll be in - in 20 years!). You can retire earlier but there are penalties.

We pay 5% of our “earnable compensation” (and some counties also do Social Security - mine does) towards the program. Our employer also pays some.

The formula is:

2% x years of creditable service x average monthly salary for the two highest consecutive years of membership service.

So a teacher (with a master’s because according to the county website max for a T4 is $58,700) making $66,000 retiring after 30 years would get about $3,300 per month, before taxes, or $39,600 - that’s a far cry from $55,000

Your example teacher wouldn’t even make that, because retiring at 25 years would result in the following penalty:

the monthly benefit will be permanently reduced by the lesser of one-twelfth of 7% for each month you are below age 60, OR 7% for each year or fraction of a year by which you have less than 30 years of creditable service.

So in your example, her money would be reduced by 35%. Ouch.

We can take a PLOP (lol) if we want to!

And one final comment - you posted:

“Workers age 18 and over with a Bachelor’s degree earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. Workers without a high school diploma average $18,734. An advanced degree earns workers an average of $74,602…The average teacher salary in Georgia for the 2003-04 school year was $45,848, up 0.7 percent from the previous year.”

Well, when compared to everyone, teachers average salaries look good. However, since a degree is a requirement of the job, it’s better to compare average teacher salaries to average salaries for college educated people - then, even with the “shortened work year” we fall a little behind - and that is why counties trying to attract good people have to pay more.

Back to my woman theory - we have more choices, and we’re often the main breadwinner - different from 40 or 50 years ago.

BTW - to anyone else - I am NOT complaining about my pay - my retirement - my benefits - my job. I am clarifying misconceptions :-)

By Michele Morgan

August 7, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Most teachers only get paid about 26 to 30 straight out of college. This is not nearly enough to live on if you happen to not be one of those 20 yr old first job teachers. I was 35 with 2 kids to support and in need of much more money.