Get Schooled

By mmm

August 2, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

Working conditions and disrespect.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

Financially speaking: That is 9 months of - on average - 10 hour work days. That does NOT count time spent working on the weekend nor during the summer.

$40,000 is a BARGAIN for the amount of work teachers do in said 9 months, and even more so for the amount of political BS they have to put up with.

Also note that said $40K is in one of GA’s richest counties. The STATE salary is just over $32.5K

By Adam

August 2, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Go spend those 9 months with kids who have absolutely no respect for you or anyone else. Not to mention the amount of money teachers have to come out of pocket for supplies when the school system and parents won’t do it. Then, on top of that, most teachers have to move rooms each year or every couple of years. If you can’t fit it at home, you have to get a storage unit…again more money. Then you spend several weeks of those ‘3’ months rearranging everything to fit the criteria the school systems have. I can guarantee that if you Bridget, had to put up with that crap, you would want more money, too. How many people get paid overtime? I haven’t seen the first overtime payment yet. My wife runs herself ragged because it is her ‘responsibility’ to make sure these kids are able to move to the next grade. Hey parents, why don’t you step in and help them at home…it makes your child’s life so much easier.

I won’t even get into disciplining kids. How about take away a video game instead of pumping them full of ridilin???

By Melissa

August 2, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

I think that most teachers know that working conditions and disrespect could possibly be issues, yet they still choose to teach.

I made $36K when I graduated with an engineering degree, worked 10 hours days, 12 months a year. I’m sure there is still a lot to complain about for teachers, but I think that the salary ($40K, 9 months) is pretty good for someone fresh out of school.

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

You’re right in that $40k isn’t bad starting pay out of college. The problem isn’t starting pay, it’s pay for seasoned veterans. When you go up the scale, even in the wealthiest counties, the most a teacher will ever make in his/her career—with 26 years experience—is $65K. There’s the problem. If you obtain advanced degrees you can raise your income somewhat, but then comes the online diploma mill…another blog topic.

With the teacher shortage, systems have been raising starting pay to lure recruits from one another, but the career-long wages on the salary schedules haven’t increased commensurately. In fact, the raises many years have not been enough to cover the increasing cost of State health insurance.

So, in other words, if you’ve been in a system for say, 10 years, you’re not making a whole lot more than you did when you started, and it may feel like less because your insurance costs so much more…

If you want an example, Fulton’s salary schedule for teachers is posted right on its website for the world to see. Starting pay is $39K…10 years, $48K…15 years, $56k. That’s a long time to wait. And know there are NO supplemental/intangible extras to being a teacher. No company cell phone, no car allowance, no Christmas bonus, no matching 401K, and you end up spending a thousand or so just on materials and supplies. Every minute you have to be away is deducted in leave time and/or docked pay—no long lunch for a dentist appt, no coming in a an hour late because you had to meet the heating and air guy, no leaving an hour early to be there for your kid’s soccer game. And that doesn’t even take into account the after school responsibilities: open house, extra curricular sponsorship, PTA meetings, faculty meetings, parent conferences, parent phone calls, and the least of which is grading. The only after-hours work that pays is coaching athletics, and those supplements are almost insulting they’re so small. This job is your entire life, around the clock, when school is in session.

And it’s not 9 months; it’s ten.

If you think about it, you can see why the problem is becoming less about obtaining teachers and more about keeping them.

By Jacob Wood

August 2, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

I’d encourage a study on how many new teachers fresh out of college continue teaching more than a few years after initially being attracted by the ‘high’ salary of 40K a year. I think you’d find that most leave for higher paying, less demanding jobs that are more respected by our society. I speak from personal experience.

By Koz

August 2, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

*Are you surprised to see salaries posted *”right on its website for the world to see” ? **

You can view all state government employee salaries (including teachers) by name on the Department of Audits Web site.

It seems to be moving slow today but enjoy.

By Koz

August 2, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Oh and italics inside of bold doesn’t work on this blog.

By gwinnett teacher

August 2, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

The pay is not bad. I make almost 60k with advanced degrees and nine years of experience. The most frustrating thing about the “compensation” is the leave accounting. This is where I feel I am an hourly employee, not a white-collar professional. Every minute I have to be gone is docked from my leave time or pay. Even leaving 15 minutes early (when students have already left for the day) is accounted for on my time. There is no lunch break to take care of any personal errands. If I have an event at my children’s school I have to move heaven and earth to find coverage for my class- not to mention the hours I have to spend to leave plans for my substitute.

However, I have just had the last ten weeks “off”. This gave me lots of time with my kids, and I still got a paycheck all summer. So, I am not complaining. There is some give and take, but I am happy with teaching as a profession!

By Sandra

August 2, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

9 months? I don’t think so. It’s more like 7 - 8 weeks.

By jct

August 2, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

I think the real question is the $40,000 salary attracting a better quality applicant. I work in HR and it is a well known fact the throwing money at an applicant doesn’t necessarily increase the quality of the applicant pool.

Will this $40,000 salary keep these new teachers teaching or will it be the spring board to another career?

Elaine - why would you stay in a job if those ‘perks’ (cell phone, matching 401K, etc) are important to you. Where I work I have none of those perks either. I love what I do and where I work so those things don’t matter as much.

I have great respect for teachers and all that they do. However, how realistic are the expectations being set for new teachers? Anyone with a half a brain could figure out that teachers really don’t work 9 months per year and that you don’t get off from work when the last bell of the rings.

My personal belief is that $40,000 will get bodies in the door but I don’t see this as solution to long term retention. Other creative solutions will need to be implemented to make teaching a more reasonable long term profession.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

I have two sisters who are teachers in Cobb. Here’s how I look at it.

Most people work 250 days a year. If you take your salary and divide by 2, and move the decimal over 3 spots. That’s your hourly wage.

i.e. someone who makes $66K makes rougly $33 dollars an hour.

So someone who makes $40K makes rougly $20/hr

A teacher however only works what 180 days year.

$40K/180/8 = ~$28/hr

which is equivalent to 28*2= $56K for a normal work schedule.

I don’t want to hear about dealing with kids, supplies, etc. Trying working in the real world!

By CaroinMarietta

August 2, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

Melissa, when did you graduate and begin your career at $36K? Our clerks (who process paperwork) are paid between $31K & $33K with little to no education. I am not a teacher, but I do support the higher starting salary. I volunteered in my kids’ school and saw first hand the classroom environment in which our teachers worked. Even in “rich” East Cobb, teachers spent money out of their own pocket to purchase class supplies for their kids. The classroom included kids who had physical and learning disabilities (parents insisted on mainstreaming), forcing the teacher and paraprofessional to devote more time to their needs, taking up valuable teaching time for the rest of the class. Add to this mix another 18 or so students, and $40K is CHEAP. Teachers today are educators, surrogate parents, counselors, to name a few.

Hats off to our teachers! And Melissa, what is your salary potential? I know several engineers whose salaries easily doubled within 5 - 7 years of graduation.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

gtfan - As someone who has worked in both corporate and a school setting, I can assure you that your simplistic breakdown doesnt reflect reality in any way.

A more realistic breakdown is as follows:

“Real World” - 240 days/8hours a day = 1920 total hours.

Education - 194 days/10 hours a day = 1940 total hours.

That number also doesnt include the time spent working at home or during the summer.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

In any education issue, the first focus should always be on the students. Therefore, the most important question is whether there is any correlation between teacher pay and student achievement. Just a few days ago, the AJC was reporting that rural students did better in math and science — and that rural teachers earned less than urban teachers. But regarding teacher pay itself, a recent study found that, based on the amount of time they work, teachers are paid more than many other professionals. “Generally, teachers earn more on an hourly basis than other educated professionals, including accountants, computer programmers, engineers, and architects.” (Heritage Foundation website) Regarding work at home—the less competent the teacher, the longer it may take him or her to grade homework. At any rate, many teachers simply do give much work that requires extensive grading. They also do not seem to spend much time in preparing work. Instead, they seem to rely on packaged worksheets and tests (probably also to forestall parent complaints). Regarding working conditions, perhaps part of the the problem lies in teacher education. For example, it’s probably still true that teachers receive NO professional training in communicating with parents. Georgia still does not have routine parent-teacher conferences—and I’d love to see that correlated with student achievement. Teachers also may have unrealistic expectations about students and/or parents. They themselves must have loved the classrooms but that love may not be shared. Currently, all school activities are scheduled around teachers’ needs, from the timing of parent-teacher conferences to the presentation of the PTA, an organization of camp followers opposed to school choice, as the only way to improve schools. Given the amount of energy teachers seem to devote to complaining about their students and parents, it’s no wonder that disrespect becomes mutual. Better teacher preparation and structing positive communication times such as mandatory parent-teacher conferences would go far to improve the situation.

By American

August 2, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

We are talking about the future of our nation! Teachers need to be respected and well paid. We need to attract the best and brightest to our schools in order to turn this nation around. Why are kids so out of control and ill-educated these days? Not enough resources are spent on teaching and schools.

By Greg

August 2, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Who are you people kidding when you say that “real world” only works 8 hour days? give me a break. Most people in the real world on salary average between 45-55 hours a week.

By aa

August 2, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Ive always thought that teachers are under paid. Where would we be without them? I know of two teachers, and I must say these kids nowadays have no respect, no respect for a 40000 salary and a headache? No way.. Its sad that teachers dont get paid enough for dealing with these horrible kids who have no manners and their idiotic parents who train them to be that way.

By J

August 2, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

There are no professional jobs where people work 8 hours per day.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

GOB

That’s assuming 8 hours for both. If I actually got paid for my overtime hours as well, 50-60 hours per week then you can add that to your calculation.

I also am graded on my performance, teachers are not, they can’t even lose their job unless they commit a serious crime.

The get an automatic 6% a year and another automatic step with more degrees.

There’s some things that I feel teachers have a right to complain about, but pay isn’t one of them.

By Dave

August 2, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

I think that teaching requires dealing with a lot of stress and a lot of homework and planning. They should make starting pay of 65k with a scale up to 95k.

That would be the only way you could take someone like me and convince me to teach. We need more engineers and scientists to come into the teaching world.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Mary - Do you have any experiance with actual teachers to base those claims on (teachers dont do much grading or prep work)? I have yet to meet a teacher that works an eight hour day. 10 is a much more realistic situation.

The Heritage Foundation is a right wing think tank with a stated goal to effect policy change. It is a lot easier to push for vouchers and the privitazation of public schools if you say that public school teachers are essentially lazy. It is important to look at the agenda of those who release those sorts of studies.

Maybe I am just in the rare school where the teachers do care and spent a considerable amount of time preparing for lessons and even more grading. I doubt that is the case though.

Also, as discussed above, the issue isnt really initial pay. It is the pay for veteran teachers.

I took a huge pay cut (over $30K a year) to become a teacher, so I might not be the best person to really ask. I have never worked harder, but have also never been happier in my work.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

There are no professional jobs where people work 8 hours per day.

I agree. Most “work” about 3 hours a day. I was there for a long time, so I have personal experiance on this one. As a teacher, I cant zone out for 30 minutes, or spend an hour looking for a birthday present for my wife online.

gtfan - The whole point of my rebuttal was that you cant assume 8 hours a day for both. From my experiance, and who knows, maybe it is skewed, teachers put in more hours on a daily basis than the average corporate worker. I worked for a Fortune 100 company for 6 years, and saw it everyday.

Also, I would love to know what district gives automatic 6% raises every year. I am getting 2.5% this year, or about the same that people with really bad reviews got in corporate.

Now, dont get me wrong, I am not complaining about initial teacher pay, but I do think your math was not exactly accurate.

By Phog

August 2, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

“I also am graded on my performance, teachers are not, they can’t even lose their job unless they commit a serious crime.”

Teachers are evaluated a minimum of three times per year by their administrators.

Plenty of teachers are told at the of the school year to go away. We have about 50 new hirees in our small little county. Only about 15 came because someone retired. We’re a poor little county (but quite smart according to AYP “standards”) and new teachers don’t anywhere near $40,000.

Retirement is a funny little thing, too. If you make it 30 years, you get 60% of what your salary was in your final year.

None of you who complain have to deal with unmotivated, disrespectful children. As stated above, teachers have to teach, counsel, parent, entertain, enlighten, and be on the lookout for kids’ mental and physical welfare. Middle grades teachers and above generally see 150+ kids per day. Lunch - all 40 minutes of it - is generally intertwined with duty. Your bathroom break is during lunch or planning (if it isn’t filled with meetings) because you can’t exactly go when they do. Or else they’ll start a fight.

By georgiagirl

August 2, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

I bet that all the people complaining about teachers being overpaid are the ones who send their self-absorbed kids to school for the teacher to deal with all day. These are the same kids who are throwing tantrums in public when they are two years old and later come to school thinking that the rules don’t apply to them. Whenever I’ve volunteered in my children’s classrooms there are always little monsters that are a major distraction for the rest of the class. If you think teachers are not worth the pay, do us all a favor and home-school your kids.

By American

August 2, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

MARY… The Heriatge Foundation is a Christian Organization with the intent mission of infusing religion into our government. Of course they despise public education and will say anything to undermine it. The Heritage Foundation would like us all to go to religious schools (like those found in Pakistan and Afghanistan) so that our young people can be indoctrinated into the evangelical world. That is also why the Heritage Foundation and other right wing groups encouraged church members to run for school board positions all over the country in the 80’s and 90’s — in order to further their agenda of destroying public education.

By SET

August 2, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I recently talked with a 29 year old CA Prison Guard who got custody of his children following a messy divorce. He made $125,000 on his W-2, plus untaxed benefits last year and expects to make the same or more this year. His friends make this kind of $$ also. He is a HS grad with no Jr College. He is rank-and-file, not a supervisor in any way. He is Hispanic, but assimilated enough so he does not go to Mexico a month every year. His Grandparents were born there.

I point this out so that the readership can contrast the pay the public school teachers make. It’s now far less than CA pays it’s state hospital psych techs (70k?) who have only some Jr College, and a fraction of the CA Prison Guard pay.

And remember, this pay is factored into the Pension calculations. Many of these workers are also maxing out the 457b deferred comp pre-tax voluntary retirement contributions. On top of that, Peace Officers retire earlier than other occupations.

Absolutely No-One is impressed with your payscales.

Is this a great country or what?

Brave New World.

By DK

August 2, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

From the above, I kept reading about work hours and at home work time. So, teachers, how many classes a day do you teach? Do you have built in time and days to plan and grade? Veteran teaches, does your planning time decrease as your career moves forward by levearging past plans? I have lost count of unpaid evenings, weekends and holidays where I worked, but I sure as heck am not crying to the public because my job was my choice.

Now, every job has stress and people you do not want to deal with, just because you deal with kids does not qualify you as a higher stress.

As for the pay, did you know about the pay and the pay potential when you went to college to be a teacher? NO ONE FORCED YOU TO GO INTO TEACHING!

Oh yea, whats the starting pay for police officers in Cobb???

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

I have lost count of unpaid evenings, weekends and holidays where I worked, but I sure as heck am not crying to the public because my job was my choice.

But you might mention it your boss, right? As teachers are paid by the state and the county, by speaking out in public, we are essentially doing the same thing.

By gtfan

August 2, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

Well, Cobb splits into two don’t know what they call it but it’s a raise and something else, each around 3%.

Teachers know exactly what they will be making when they CHOOSE their profession.

Well, I got an engineering degree from Tech and if the complexity and type of work a public school teacher performs was comprable to mine I wouldn’t complain.

If you’re going to keep comparing hours, then I’ll just say there’s a difference b/t working hard and working smart. Guess the teachers couldn’t figure that out when choosing their profession.

By Tina

August 2, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Based on the Teachers’ comments above, confirms why Georgia is one of the lowest States in overall test scores.

By Ann

August 2, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Did you not know the salary when you took the promotion !!! Find something else to do or deal with it - who isn’t underpaid - in their opinion!!!

If you soroo’s love teaching so much, quit trying to out-do your soro-sister by getting a higher education to buy a bigger car and a bigger house and focus on loving the teaching of children…as you say !!!

By Elf

August 2, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

A 20-something with a Chemical Engineering degree can make over $52,000 per year with better benefits and much better long-term career earnings potential. Many other degrees are close to that in starting pay. If you add in the almost mandatory advanced degrees that Teachers get you would be seeing starting pay in the $60K+ range or $100K for a Lawyer. I don’t think $40K is that out of whack. For a lot of us “age-challenged” it sounds like a lot of money but we also remember sub-$2,000 new cars and $400 house payments and who sees either of those anymore?

Get a grip, they work long hours, they deal with high stress (things like teenagers with guns in the classrooms), and they spend a lot of their own money every year to compensate for the lack of real support from the parents or government. They more than earn it.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Well, Cobb splits into two don’t know what they call it but it’s a raise and something else, each around 3%.

No, they dont. The state budget calls for a 3% raise for teachers this year. Cobb, however, already pays their teachers higher than the state average, so instead of teachers getting the full 3%, they are given a pro-rated raise of 2.5%. That is it.

There are some steps based on the amount of time one has been teaching, but they dont come in every year.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

“They should make starting pay of 65k…”

What?! A first-year analyst on Wall Street, working 100 hours a week, only makes a base salary of $55-60K.

Lots of people are qualified to be baseline teachers. As a result of working in a non-competitive environment vis-a-vis compensation, great teachers who are scarcer in supply are relegated to baseline salaries.

If schools were privatized, teachers would make what they deserved. Money is the single most powerful motivating force in a capitalistic, worldly society like ours. Well-educated, highly skilled workers almost invariably go where the money is: the private sector.

By Atlanta Native

August 2, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

I have no sympathy for these teachers who use political motives to get their raises each year. Each year the teachers always get more than the regular state workers. I have been a state employee for 15 years, BS degree, and only make $36,500 a year. I started making $18,000 in 1992. I support a family of 4 on this without help or assistance. Am I not deserving of a decent raise this year. It would be nice to make at least 40k before I am 40 which is only 2 years away !

By Rod

August 2, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

GOB - you’re a teacher?!?! That’s what’s wrong with our kids today. Illiterates like you are teaching. Your posts are filled with incorrectly spelled words and grammatical mistakes.

You wrote “experiance” twice, “cant” twice and “dont” once. That was just in your 12:14 post. Please, go back to school yourself before you teach anymore!

By JV

August 2, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

If schools were privatized, teachers would make what they deserved.

Because education doesnt already have enough issues, we should add turning a profit into the mix…

By Eric

August 2, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

I for one have great respect for teachers. If it was not for them none of us would be in the professions that we are in from the over paid CEO’s who rip off everyone to the engineers. Teachers do spend a lot of time devoting to the community as well as educating everyone. So why are some people content to say that a teacher does not deserve a raise. But I guess those types of people think that they made it to the top because it was there right. As I figure teachers should be the highest paid people in the world.

I do know when I go back to my old school and see some of the teachers that had a real impact on my life, I thank them. With out them where would I be.

I have even gone in on career day and tried to tell the kids about being in the Marines and how respect gets you everywhere and you need to thank the people that got you there. The parnets of these kids were rolling their eyes and saying that teaching was one of the trival jobs in America. I am sorry to say those particular parnet’s kids were the worst behaved kids in the room.

Again I say you really could never pay a teacher enough for what they do.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

gtfan:

I am BOTH a certified teacher AND a currently working professional programmer.

TRUST me, engineering of ANY type compared to teaching is like saying the person on the cruise ship crossing the Atlantic is working harder than the person SWIMMING the Atlantic. There simply IS NO accurate comparison.

Take it straight from the horses’ mouth: Teaching was a day to day WAR for my very SANITY. And in some days, my LIFE was literally at risk. In engineering, even with a WAAAYYYY missed deadline, you simply don’t have anywhere NEAR the pressure. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering if someone is going to lie about you and cost you your job that day. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering if you’re going to get shot that day. You don’t go to work as an engineer wondering how many fights you’re going to have to break up that day. The ONLY analog that is even CLOSE to giving you an idea what teaching is like is weekly performance meetings (such as I have every Friday where you discuss what you did that week with the team and the boss critiques it). And even then the analog is VERY rough, because in teaching you have your official chain of command - dept head, asst principal, principal, superintendent - AND an UNofficial chain of command - parents in particular, but literally EVERYBODY ELSE in general - and ANY of these people can cost you your job at ANY moment REGARDLESS of the legitimacy of their claims.

By DK

August 2, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Dear GOB, No I did not cry to my boss about the work hours, I wanted to produce the best work possible and if that took my beyond normal work hours, so be it.

I guess that’s the difference between you and me and way you work in the public sector, not the private.

By John

August 2, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Salaries and benefits for teachers in Georgia are excellent. This is the main reason teachers are pouring into Georgia from neighboring states because our salaries are very high. However, they earn every penny of it.

What is interesting is that private and Catholic schools are paying their teachers several thousand—usually in excess of $10,000—less than the public schools and far less generous benefits. Yet, those private and Catholic schools are attracting teachers that generally are better than most of those in public schools.

It is clear that paying more money is not the key to a better educational system.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

“Because education doesnt already have enough issues, we should add turning a profit into the mix…”

And why do you think schools have so many issues? Because they’re run by the government. Teachers are trapped. They’re forced to adhere to arbitrary curriculum guidelines; they can’t discipline students without being accused of a civil rights violation; and to top it off, they’re unable to distinguish themselves from less qualified co-workers.

Profit isn’t a problem. It’s a solution.

By catlady

August 2, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

I am at the bottom right hand corner of the pay scale: max degrees, max experience. I make $67,000 next year, with my local supplement.

Too bad teachers don’t get combat pay, or overtime.

You are right. We choose to do this. Fewer and fewer are choosing to stick around past the first few years. That tells us one of two things: the wrong people are going into education, or it just isn’t worth it. It used to be a glorious profession but has become something far less, in many cases. Anyone who thinks teachers are adequately paid needs to spend a full week in a school shadowing a teacher every moment.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

As a parent, and someone who reads information from a wide variety of sources, I am surprised at the vitrol directed at students and parents on this blog. I am sure the teachers spewing anger do not understand why the public, mostly composed of adults who work 12 months a year, do not start throwing even more money at them to make up for their enormous hardship and deep personal suffering in teaching the parents’awful, horrible, terrible, appalling children. School choice would solve most education problems.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

John - I would ask how you know that the teachers that the private schools are hiring are better.

Also, the main reason that teachers are willing to take less money is because they know the schools have the ability to choose who to let it in, and who they can turn down. That leads to easier classrooms to manange on a daily basis.

By Mary

August 2, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Show me the studies linking teacher pay and student performance.

By Sam Cunningham

August 2, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Bridget -

How disappointed I am with your comment that teachers only work “9 months.” Your comment clearly shows how very little you know of the teaching profession.

It seems that you are with the misinformed group of people that think that teaching is ‘easy’ and that the job starts at the beginning of the day when the bell rings and stops with the last bell of the school day. It seems that you also feel that teachers have summers ‘off’ and just sit around a swimming pool, relaxing. How very wrong and mislead you are!

I worked for 12 years in the corporate world and changed professions. I have worked as a high school teacher for 5 years. I was paid into 6 figures for my corporate salary and am paid less than half of that for my teaching salary. Funny thing is that the amount of work in one year I do is the same!

Good teachers start their day way before the children arrive. This means that sometimes I get to work at 6:30 AM (which I never did in the corporate world). I write lesson plans, make copies for hand-outs, and do numerous other things that I had a secretary do when I was in the corporate world. Then, I answer emails because, of course, I cannot answer emails during class. Science teachers set up labs for the day and continue to prepare.

During the school day, we go non-stop. Even our so-called ‘planning period’ is not ours because the administration gives us hall duty and lunch room duty.

After the last bell of the day, kids sometimes stop by for extra help. So, our ‘job’ is not done. Then, we have to grade papers, complete the administrative requirements for the day (this varies from school to school) and begin thinking about the next day. Good teachers often leave ‘work’ at about 6 PM or even later.

During so-called holidays and summers, the good teachers do not lounge around the pool. We take continuing education classes to hone our teaching skill. This summer, I was basically forced to help the school system coordinator with one of her pet projects. Most of us also try to take college level courses to increase our level of certification to get the measily pay increase that affords us. What other profession does this kind of crap?

Another aspect that this includes is how good teachers spend so very much from their own pay check for school supplies. Yes, the school system provides white board markers, but they are either dried out or they are the cheap ones that really don’t erase - so we have to go to Target and buy our own. Note that this is just one item for an example. Again, what other profession requires people to spend money out of their pay check to buy supplies for their job????? Can you imagine Coca-Cola hiring you and then telling you that you must buy your own laptop to do your job?

Bridget, if you are going to continue to be the person in charge of this blog, I HIGHLY recommend that you become knowledgable about the subject before posting another ignorant comment like that!!!

Teacher pay is what our society has deemed. Obviously, our society doesn’t care about educating youth, so the teacher pay is low. Imagine what would happen over time if teacher pay was $100,000 per year! Highly qualified people would be lining up for the open jobs. The teaching and learning done would be fabulous.

Instead, the pay is pitiful so school systems mostly get pitiful people to teach. You get what you pay for!

By holdingAJCaccountable

August 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Quote from GTfan

“I don’t want to hear about dealing with kids, supplies, etc. Trying working in the real world!”

When you are physically assaulted in your “real world” job, does your boss tell you it’s your fault for not “managing” the assailant properly?

You might want to stick to commenting on “the real world” because you obviously don’t have a clue about the teaching world.

By SET

August 2, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

I grew up in Catholic Schools in the ’60s and people had a lot of respect for Nuns and Priests - then.

No one wanted their child to become one.

Face it, people. It is no longer a rational decision for most college educated workers to become a public school teacher unless it’s at least at Jr. College level. Or you have family money and don’t have to support a family anyway.

You can do so. It’s just not a rational decision. Think of the Soviet Union Factory Workers who made products no one wanted that piled up in warehouses. Look what happened to them when the Central Government/Command Economy eventually ran out of steam? They are left to beg for food while workers that produce value dance in nightclubs.

Don’t think it’s not going to happen here.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Sam hit the nail on the head. The specific numbers arent the issue, but rather what our society truly values.

Teachers, police and firemen have been told by our society that they arent really that important. Why? Because they dont make anyone any money.

Until there is a fundemental change in what we as a society value, we will continue to have under-performing schools, and police and firemen who risk their lives on a daily basis for less money than I made the day I walked out of college to go work for the phone company buying coax cable.

By Anita

August 2, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

When you take in consideration the children who the teachers have to deal with and the other responsibilities that come along with the job, 40K is not nearly enough to compensate these individuals who choose this profession.

Yes, the individuals may know what to expect when they accept the job of a teacher but someone has to do it. I thank God that there are individuals out there who are interested in teaching our children and not interested in just having the summers off with pay.

I am not a teacher but I still get a feel for what these teachers are dealing with when I see the kids on the street. Maybe if we understood the value of teachers and the effect that they have on our children, we would understand that they are extremely under paid. We have all of these CEOs and other executives that are paid high salaries and their jobs don’t have nearly the effect on society as the job of a teacher. If we increse the salaries of teachers we probably would attract individuals who would have a positive effect on our children,smaller dropout rate, more children going to college and could live in a better society.

By NICK

August 2, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Unless I was working in an all white and wealthy school district, $100,000 would not cut it for all the B.S. (non English speaking illegals and black attitudes and violence)one would have to deal with EVERYDAY.

Your best bet is to send your kids to private school, where they will be challenged academically.

By Non Teacher

August 2, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

I came out of UGA with a 5 year professional degree in Landscape architecture and only got 33K with 10 days of sick/vacation. Teachers get two weeks + off for Christmas, 3 days for Thanksgiving, Fall and/or spring break, and then there is the monster time off at summer. I also work more hours and have just as much stress (as any job) dealing with demanding clients and idiot government workers.

By JW

August 2, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

No one is forcing someone to teach at gunpoint. Those who have chosen to teach know the salaries, work conditions, and risk/reward. Consider that teacher retirement in better counties is significant. Such pensions are seldom offered in the non-government world. A number of counties’s school systems were able to opt out of Social Security years ago. That savings is well deployed into effective retirement. Most of us in the private sector do not have that advantage. I have made my choice; teachers have made theirs.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

“Teachers, police and firemen have been told by our society that they arent really that important. Why? Because they dont make anyone any money.”

Few would suggest that they’re unimportant. However, if you want them to make more money, you’ll have to pay more taxes. Are you willing to give up more of your pay to better compensate public servants?

By Joe

August 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Teachers negotiate their salaries collectively and fight any performance based pay. Unlike the corporate world where there is a free market for talent that rewards high performers, the worst teachers are paid as much as the best teachers with the same number of years in the field. As long as unions and collective negotiations exist, teachers will be viewed as a common, undifferentiated commodity. Thus, the best will be underpaid and the worst will be overpaid, which benefits only the weakest links in the field. I also feel that urban schools fail not because of teachers or resources, but because of the students and their families. There is only so much a teacher can do in 6 hours. If the students’ parent do not instill the value of an education, discipline, and a work ethic, than the teachers are basically set up for failure. Parents and community advocates can blame the school systems all they want, but ultimately the responsibilities fall on the parents and the students.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Teachers negotiate their salaries collectively and fight any performance based pay. Unlike the corporate world where there is a free market for talent that rewards high performers, the worst teachers are paid as much as the best teachers with the same number of years in the field. As long as unions and collective negotiations exist, teachers will be viewed as a common, undifferentiated commodity. Thus, the best will be underpaid and the worst will be overpaid, which benefits only the weakest links in the field. I also feel that urban schools fail not because of teachers or resources, but because of the students and their families. There is only so much a teacher can do in 6 hours. If the students’ parent do not instill the value of an education, discipline, and a work ethic, than the teachers are basically set up for failure. Parents and community advocates can blame the school systems all they want, but ultimately the responsibilities fall on the parents and the students.

By Sarah

August 2, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

I think they key word was also “new” hires. There are veteran teachers with Master’s degrees who still do not make 40K a year.

By cr

August 2, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

They are overpayed at 40k fresh out of school. It should to take them 10 years to work up to that salary. If the jobs so bad why don’t they work somewhere else…. What I thought it must be the best job around !

By GOB

August 2, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Few would suggest that they’re unimportant. However, if you want them to make more money, you’ll have to pay more taxes. Are you willing to give up more of your pay to better compensate public servants?

I think they are given lip-service about being important, but when it comes down to it, we dont do the things that SHOW that they are truly important.

I would absolutly be willing to have a higher tax rate to pay the people who are dedicating their lives to making our communities a better place to live. It becomes a cycle. The more educated a community is, the better it will perform. That brings jobs, and economic growth, which will benefit me. The same can be said for a safe community.

By Jay

August 2, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

“We have all of these CEOs and other executives that are paid high salaries and their jobs don’t have nearly the effect on society as the job of a teacher.”

I’ll admit, CEO pay has gotten out of control, but they do have a major effect on society. If a CEO doesn’t keep his company profitable, its stock tumbles. This stock is part of larger portfolios managed by mutual funds, 401(k)’s, pensions, trusts, endowments, amateur investors. Therefore, if a CEO doesn’t do his job well, you and I could potentially lose money we depend on for living expenses and retirement.

By SteveAtlGa

August 2, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

They earn every penny of it. I have seen some of the other parents at the school and the disrespect of some students, not to mention of political BS. Think about it - forced to forego some pay because of low test scores - yep, blame the teachers as usual …..It’s time we adequately fund schools and teachers in order to prepare our kids for the future!

By Moffdaddy

August 2, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

Get Real MF In 1996, after 10 years of getting cursed, watching criminals prey on the unsuspecting and innocent, working three jobs to make ends meet, I gave up on my 65 hour-a-week teaching job. I had three degrees and almost made $30K my last year. My first year outside of teaching I made $40K and now I make more than a principal…not to mention considerably better benefits.

While teaching, I rarely got to eat lunch, had to run to the bathroom, and frequently worked a 12 day. My first principal hired me not because of my Graduate training but due to combat experience while serving with the 101st.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Moff:

Eyah, combat experience is a DEFINITE need for someone going into their first year teaching.

I was in a classroom in Randolph that made me WISH I had been in Iraq (and that is even more ironic when you realize that I was LITERALLY 18 hrs away from signing the dotted line and doing just that when I got my first teaching job!)

By Elaine

August 2, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

jct—

I agree with you whole-heartedly. You are absolutely right in every way. I think that extra “luring” cash would be much better spent in rewarding veteran teachers through merit pay, or even a graduated system of becoming “senior” or “expert” or “master” teachers. There have been some stabs at it (National Board Certification, for one). But these outside programs—along with higher degrees—don’t always directly correllate with what a teacher does daily, or how he/she makes his/her school a better place. (And some higher degrees are literally purchased online.) But that whole system just a pipe dream of mine.

And to answer your question, no, those “perks” would not make me stay in a job I didn’t like. I was merely pointing those things out to let folks outside education know that a $40k teaching job pays even a little less than what a $40K job in the private sector might involve.

I admit, I went on somewhat of a rant. It’s just frustrating to hear someone imply that teachers may be paid too much. That’s just not true.

And to those who have the “you picked the job” argument: what will our country be like when all the good teachers get fed up and leave? Why should someone have to take a vow of poverty and offer up a life of sacrifice to be a teacher? Like someone said above, don’t we want teaching to be a desirable job? Even if you choose to send your own children to private school (and trust me, private school teaching is no walk in the park, and most positions pay significantly LESS that public school jobs, so why do you think you’re getting a higher quality education?) you will still work/interact/do business with public school educated people. And your life will be better if they are educated well.

By JustMe

August 2, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Joe,

You are certainly not a GA person and are really a complete idiot! Teachers in no way negotiate their pay collectively!!! What planet are you on?

It constantly amazes me how many idiots have stupid ideas in their heads that are base-less.

The State of GA contributes to teacher pay. That is set by the State politicans and have nothing to do with any teacher or teacher group. Then, the individual school system contributes to that amount based on property taxes (which is why there is some variance between school systems for teacher pay). Again, no teacher or teacher group contributes to set that dollar amount, either.

Finally, teachers do not want ‘performance based’ pay scales because the so-called performance that is measured isn’t the teacher’s, but the student’s!!!! What other profession would do such a stupid thing?

A doctor gets paid for surgery, regardless of what happens to the patient. A fireman gets paid regardless if the fire is put out quickly or slowly. A computer programmer gets paid the same regardless if the code is eloquant or not.

You can put a great teacher in front of idiot kids that have no regard for learning and no respect for adults and the idiot kids will still not learn. Yet, you want to judge/pay the great teacher based on that?

By TinaTeach

August 2, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

I’ve only been in the system as a Teacher for a year. I teach an extra class than most teachers (which gets me about an eighth more pay than my base salary). I have to also deal with a shrinking planning period due to duties that are assigned to us by admins that don’t seem to care that I only have 60 mins a day to plan verses others who have 90-110 minutes. As a result I work 10 hour days and often through lunch. I redid my plans this year and know teachers who redo theirs every two or three in order to keep themselves abreast or keep the kids interested.

We also work pre-planning and post-planning days that are so packed with meetings that we have little time to get ready for open house or for the first day of school.

Parents come in promising to shape their kids up and then laugh with their kid on the way out. Kids will fall asleep or just not pay attention and then complain that I should help them pass at the end of the semester/change /give them thier grade because their parents pay my salary. These are the cons

This past summer I worked on a committee that helped to reorganize the way our kids go to class/get tutoring this year. I also tutored a girl who was out second semester with a serious injury/illness and lost more in gas money than money I made but she passed and is now in one of my advanced level classes. I enjoy working with my department.

I get to hear kids thank me (few believe me do and mean it) for helping them.
These are the pros.

Do I wish that I didn’t teach. Sometimes but more often than not I wish that the conditions would improve and that parents would take some weight off our shoulders. I also wish the pay was better but it’s not everything gtfan Georgia is not a Right to Work state. A teacher can lose thier job for any reason the admins see fit. If they are proven not to be effective then they lose thier job. We do not enjoy the benefit of tenure.

By cpginga

August 2, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Holy crap. I am sick and tired of people b*** and complaining about my teaching salary. I work damn hard for my money - teaching some of your moronic kids that don’t know how to behave in society at the High School level. I should get paid combat pay for that.

Do I make 40k? Damn right I do. But I also coach 2 sports, work Saturday detentions school and tutor in the afternoon. Yes, Saturday detention school for High School kids that don’t know how to behave. That’s sad. I think you, as the parent, should have to come too. But that’s a whole other story.

To all those that b*** at me. Suck it. Go back to school and get a teaching degree. Be prepared to work until 11pm, grading papers, marking assignments, making lesson plans, inputing grades, etc. and Oh yea.. go back to school full time at night to get your Masters Degree. Have a family? Sure - combine that in there too.

Did I tell you I owe $38,000 in loans for my undergraduate degree, not to mention another $18,000 for my graduate degree that I am still working on.

Get over it people.

Let’s swap jobs. Try teaching for 1 week. Guaranteed you will think twice.

-cpginga@yahoo.com

By jaxman

August 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

What are the pay supplments for coaching football, basketball, etc?

By Christy

August 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

When you consider that starting salary for Assistant District Attorneys in the State of Georgia is $38,124.00, a position that requires three years of law school and a full twelve month work plus unpaid over time when prepping for trials, $40,000 a year for a bachelor’s degree doesn’t seem too bad.

By cpginga

August 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

… and while I am at it, let me rant a little more.

I don’t appreciate neither my name, nor my salary blasted on the internet for all to see. It’s no one’s business how little I make as a teacher.

-cpginga

By JustMe

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Tina, I agree with you all of the way, except for one thing. GA is a “Right to Work” State. This means that a worker can quit for any reason and also an employer can fire you for any reason.

This is what makes any sort of worker union useless in the State of GA (that explains why there are none here). Unions leverage their power through threats of walk outs, strikes, etc. However, GA law makes that impossible because legally, the company can simply hire others and fire you without cause. In States like Michigan, the State law is such that the company cannot fire you if you have the backing of the union. The union supports the workers and the worker rights.

To make matters worse in GA, teachers are really considered State employees. GA State law makes State employees basically slaves without any worker rights at all.

By Frat Boy

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

I was a complete partier and stoner in high school and my one year of college. I never tried hard at anything in my life. I drifted through my early twenties doing odd jobs here and there. I finally grew up and got some motivation around 25. Today Im 29 years old and made $126k last year in technology sales. I know nothing about technology, havent attended a single class, just happen to have some charisma and charm and I put in long hours when need be.

My point? We all CHOOSE the path we take. There are lots of options for everyone. Teachers choose to be teachers, and thus choose what goes with it. Public service has never been a high paying field and it never will be. If thats what you are looking for, do something else, because you are in it for the wrong reasons.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

What are the pay supplments for coaching football, basketball, etc?

In Cobb, the varsity football coach gets about $7K a year. The assistant supplement is around $3K. The catch, however, is that there are only 3 or 4 assistant supplements, and at my school, 10 coaches. That means that almost all the coaches are getting a half or a third of the supplement at best.

I coached football last year for $500. We went from 4-7:30 everyday. That was field time. Cleaning up, getting the kids back inside, making sure they all got home was after that. Then there were game days. Get to school around 7:30, get home around midnight. I did the math once, and it came out to something like $0.60/hour.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

So JustMe, your local GAE reps does not negotiate with the local school boards on teacher raises and salaries? If that is the case, you deserve to earn even less than the average. I simply find that hard to believe. On the state level, I find it hard to believe that there are not lobbyists from the GAE lobbying for higher salaries. Working in finance and product marketing, you are evaluated on how well your forecasts and evaluations pan out. I can cry all I want about unforseen changes in the economy or cry about people not buying enough of the product that is being marketed, but at the end of the day most companies and workers are based on performance. Teachers should be evaluated based on yearly improvements or exceeding set goals that are specific to the teacher and the school he/she teaches within. That is how the real world works. Compete or move on. If you complain so much about the pay and education field, change jobs. Apparently you aren’t cut out for your field.

By theBiscuit

August 2, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Well welcome to the real world. No individual work 9-5 jobs in any field. I dont support this “minimum wage” increase because it won’t improve schooling. There are 2 types of teachers, those that are passionate and those that teach for summers off. The latter don’t do the extras and are not worth the 40k. The ones that are passionate, stay after school are worth 1 1/2 to two times that.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Joe:

And what, praytell, should those goals be? Things such as “I will give x number of tests this year” or “Z% of students will pass the EOCT this year”?

The first example is something entirely within a teacher’s control - and even that is iffy, since some schools have a set number of tests a teacher can give.

The second example is something that the teacher has precisly ZERO control over.

Just as the my coworker is not responsible for the outcome of MY project, neither should a teacher be responsible for the outcome of someone else’s decisions.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Biscuit:

The passionate ones are the very ones you are driving away in droves.

I am a prime example. You will NOT find someone more passionate about teaching than me. But I no longer teach, and it is PURELY due to people such as the non-teachers that have posted here today.

By Christy

August 2, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Georgia is a right to work state, but every public school teacher in the state of Georgia signs a CONTRACT which gives them certain rights and includes the stipulation that they can only be fired for cause. Your average worker does not have a contract which makes him a “right to work” employee and can be fired legally at any time for any non-discriminatory cause.

By Joe

August 2, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

In the business world, there are goals for revenue, units sold, market share, earnings per share. A CMO, CEO, CFO can say they can only control so much and external market conditions can impact results. However at the end they are judged by their results. Why not have goals and incentives for test scores and number of students advancing to the next grade. Why not use historical data from specific school to develop a calculation to set goals? It works in the real world. It drives down complacency and keeps the teachers focused. However, if teachers want to be viewed as interchangeable part and commodities, then so be it.

By Pedagogue

August 2, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

If teaching is such a sucky no-respect low-pay job, then why did you CHOOSE to major in it at university? I noticed at an august institution of higher learning that most of the Education majors were not the high-intelligence students. This was a major in which they could get their degree with ease, just as easily secure a government job — and then pizz & moan about how they don’t get no respect and few dollars. BFH*

By JohnR

August 2, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

My only comment to those who don’t think teachers earn the pay is to put your effort where your mouth is. I will permit anyone who wishes to give it a try the opportunity. You arrange with your job to be out 2 or 3 weeks and come teach at my high school. One week isn’t long enough. I’ll get you started and then you’ll have to create the lessons, teach the kids, discipline the kids, call the parents, go to meetings, the whole deal. You do it all and then make your decision as to whether $40K, pretax is too much.

By GOB

August 2, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Joe - The principal at a school is treated much like the CEO of a company. If the school continues to struggle, they are out. Your idea is the equivalent of making a systems analyst yearly review based on how the stock performs.

And how would you even begin to set up those kinds of goals for teachers outside of the core classes? Is the art teacher going to be judged on the quality of the clay pot the kid made?

In end though, Jeff is right. You cant hold teachers responsible for the decisions of their students.

By Blind Homer

August 2, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

I think that after about 5 years the good teachers should start making more like $60K, but all the incompetent ones should be fired. On a separate issue, your student loan balances have nothing to do with your pay. You can do the first four years at any Georgia school for room and board with the HOPE, and as an adult, you’ll always pay room and board anyway.

By Jeff

August 2, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Joe:

The timber needed for your company to build the baseball bat didn’t WILLFULLY decide not to show up. Neither did it WILL