Get Schooled

By Jeff

July 19, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

Bridget,

There is nothing new about this. Just look at what the teachers with 10+ years of political indoctrination were telling me last week about my ideas. They kept bashing them and bashing them, WITHOUT OFFERING ANY OTHER IDEAS. They want to hold on to a FAILED system simply because it is all they have known and “research proves it”. I call BS. “Research” can prove whatever you want it to prove in sociological realms, including education.

These are the FACTS:

1) Students come into the MS/HS levels without sufficient foundational knowledge, yet continue to get passed.

2) A school can FAIL the CRCT by a LARGE margin and STILL “make” AYP.

3) A Student can FAIL the CRCT and STILL move to the next grade, EVEN IN the “gateway” grades of 3, 5, and 8.

And this does not even go into discipline and other issues which further prove that the Current Educational System is a FAILED model and MUST be replaced before we will see any true change.

By Truth Filter

July 19, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

I’m not a teacher and I think what you say has some truth to it. The problem is the Currect Education System is not a failed model although it is failing some kids. There are many many kids who are doing very well. The question is what can be done to help those kids?

I for one think that there’s a tremendous amount of innovation going on right now. Charter Schools, Magnet Schools, Career Academies, On-line Classes, etc. etc. Radical, wholesale change isn’t going to happen like you want it — but thoughtful changes and tweaks will have a huge impact.

Just one blogger’s opinion…

By mmm

July 19, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

I can so relate to Shaq’s challenge.

The simple logic of what a particular child needs just isn’t important enough to overcome the inertia. It would be great entertainment to see him try.

The only reason “parental involvement” has become a indicator of school quality, is because if there are enough advocates running around they might hold at bay some of the bueracratic decisions that stem from laziness, cost savings, CYA, or presumptions about what the kid’s can’t be expected to do.

I am an engineer by training and problem solving approach, but I have spent 5 years trying to help a charter school, and for every step forward there are huge forces that will distroy you. It is the nail that sticks out that will be hammered down.

By Tony

July 19, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

School lunch programs are rooted in federal USDA regulations that leave schools with very little wiggle room for making changes. When you examine the school lunch program rules you will find a complex set of compromises for the special interest groups - mostly large agribusiness industries. Many people jump on the fat content of school food, but the big problem is the carbohydrate and refined sugar content. Schools are required to serve milk products and we must offer the choices provided by the dairies. This includes the flavored milks which contain as much sugar as colas!

When it comes to including more recess time for students, the schools first obligation is to provide the required number of minutes of instructional time. For many grade levels this means 300 minutes. Some schools have little time left for recess after this and lunch time. When it comes to offering more physical education time, schools are locked into using available personnel for the class and then have to meet class size limits. If the community wants more PE time they can demand it from the BOE and provide the tax resources it takes to pay the additional teacher.

If we want real change to take place in public schools, we must mobilize to reduce the federal regulations (meddling) into our local schools.

By Mark

July 19, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

Jeff… 1. SOME students go into MS/HS unprepared. I feel my HS/MS children are far more prepared than I was in the ‘70’s. Their curriculum is much more rigorous and demanding than anything I faced in school. We have gotten ourselves into a mindset where we think everyone has to go to college and if everyone isn’t prepared to pass trig or calculus then the school system has somehow failed. The ugly truth is that not every student will be able to pass AP classes or even lower math classes such as geometry The solution is to offer a wider array of classes for students who will be going straight into the work force or to a technical school. Right now, schools are providing the courses that legislatures tell them they must. More tech high schools would be a good start, even though most moms and dads don’t want to admit their 9th gradeer may not be college material. 2. It would be hard for a school to FAIL the CRCT by a large margin and still make AYP. In order to do so, the schoolwould have had to show a substantial increase from the prior year’s scores…thus, they made adequate progress. This was done so schools that were WAY behind could make progress and get recognized for it without having to become a total overnight success. 3. Sure a student can fail the CRCT and move on…in any grade, but it is tough to do in the benchmark years (3,5,8). Usually only students who are in special education and will never pass the CRCT are moved on. 4. Discipline issues? Again…I guess it depends on where you are. I have none. I hear about highly publicized accounts now and then in the media…but from my standpoint and my children’s…there are no problems. 3.

By SET

July 19, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

As usual people seem to think that all children are created equal and just need more parental involvement to be decent students. Right.

The schools are rotten among other reasons because they refuse to sort the students by ability and mix low IQ students with average students. You cannot run the two groups together because of the behavioral differences. The techniques to run a low IQ school program are very different than running a normal school with 100 IQ students.

Lower IQ students require more severe discipline for one thing. Secondarily they are more likely to have low IQ parent(s) who should not be depended on for anything.

If the schools would stop their PC nonsense and actually deal with the kids they have to work with, they could probably save a lot of them from the prison-welfare industrial complex. I think the problem is that the schools (at least the urban - liberal dominated ones) really don’t care about the survival of their students are are really in this business to make a nice living for themselves.

It’s amusing that Shaq was surprised about what’s going on. Didn’t he know the school was a fat factory turning out doomed children? Maybe he didn’t go to one. Maybe he thought the school was run like whatever one he went to. Common belief.

By luvs2teach

July 19, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Jeff, as someone who came in from an alternative direction, I, too, cringe at the educratic mindset - my skin crawls when some “consultant” (meaning salesperson) uses the term “research-based” in promoting his or her “cure du jour.”

I get frustrated at the day-to-day ineffectiveness of some of the status quo. However, you come off pretty aggressively in your posts, and what you called “bashing,” I read as simply a response in kind. JMHO, though.

That being said, my biggest problem with your solution was that it mirrors, IMO, the biggest problem with the CES - the one-size-fits-all mentality. Just as all kids don’t learn well from a lecture, all kids won’t learn well from a screen.

For example, my daughter, who is pretty independent and learns well on her own, would do very well. My son, on the other hand, would hate every freaking minute of it. I definitely think there is a place for that type of education; I just don’t believe it should be the only delivery model.

As far as my offering another solution, I have mentioned several things in the past including more online classes, flexible grouping based on abilities and not calendar age (I feel strongly that just because a child is 6, that doesn’t mean that child needs to be in 1st grade), and more job training and internship opportunities - especially at the middle school level (personally, I would like to see 7th and 8th grade eliminated as school years and instead be job exposure years. At the end of “8th grade” you decide on college prep or further job training - of course you can’t enter my “7/8 job exposure class” w/o first passing a test in basic reading/writing and math).

As far as Bridget’s question goes, I think the “resistance to change” problem is multi-fold. One problem is money; there are too many people who earn their pay by keeping things the same. Another is our sue-happy society: people are afraid of changing what works “OK for most” because of liabilty issues if the new solution doesn’t work as well. Another issue, I think, is people’s resistance to change in general - not just teachers or institutions, but everybody - remember the parental repsonse to “new math” back in the 70s?

It’s funny though, to think of education as resistant to change, becuase since I’ve been teaching, I have seen several fads and programs come and go - yet, if you really look hard at this stuff, most of the “new and improved” was really “old and rehashed.”

By Clarke Teacher

July 19, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

True story: fellow teacher has class of 28 ninth grade kids, more than 50% are SPED and/or ESOL. She works her tail off with them (with a collaborative teacher that does nothing); they are still failing practice EOCT tests, and her assignments. She checks their prior CRCT results. Everyone that is failing has never passed a reading OR math CRCT!!!!!! She’s harrassed by the principal for her results, which are about the same as the others teaching the same subject. She ends up resigning. She did more to help me change my teaching methods and curriculum in 1.5 years than 10 years of so called professional development.

By Clarke Teacher

July 19, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

True story: fellow teacher has class of 28 ninth grade kids, more than 50% are SPED and/or ESOL. She works her tail off with them (with a collaborative teacher that does nothing); they are still failing practice EOCT tests, and her assignments. She checks their prior CRCT results. Everyone that is failing has never passed a reading OR math CRCT!!!!!! She’s harrassed by the principal for her results, which are about the same as the others teaching the same subject. She ends up resigning. She did more to help me change my teaching methods and curriculum in 1.5 years than 10 years of so called professional development.

By Clarke Teacher

July 19, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

sorry for the double post, my IE is going wacko lately!

By Dave

July 19, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

The problem is that the government indoctrination day camps for children have created a couple of generations of mind numbed robots. Its essential for national socialism to keep education locked down like this.

By Jesse's Girl

July 19, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Public school systems have never been accused of having a child’s health in mind. Its not their job…and it likely never will be. With the influx of non-English speaking students and the flight of terrific teachers….we have bigger things to worry about than extra PE time and what is for lunch. For the parents who are concerned over the nutritional value of a school meal….make the lunch yourself. If making your child’s lunch is an issue for some reason, then ensure that your child gets a well rounded meal at home for dinner.

I personally think that our school offers PE too much….our kids have it everyday (either an actual scheduled PE day or 30 minutes of recess ) and they only get art and music once a week. This upsets me. Art and music should be just as important as PE. Every child has the opportunity to jump around and play…by virtue of just being a child! But not every child is afforded the joy of art and music…..robbing them of one to give them some sweat time doesn’t seem right.

By catlady

July 19, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

The two instances you cited from the Shaq show:

Our supervisors choose these “cure du jour” programs without thinking how they will impact other things. In our school, we do Reading First for 2 hours and 40 minutes. During that time, there is no overt instruction in spelling, writing, language arts. Just decoding, with a LITTLE comprension on the side. Then, because we are upset about math scores, we do over an hour of math. The state MANDATES that the kids get lunch, pe. art, and music, plus time to use the bathroom. Now, we still have language arts (spelling, writing, grammar), science, health, and social studies to fit in somewhere, with appropriate Learning Focused strategies. And many of our kids get on the bus at 6:40, so by 1:00 they are shot. Just one example of the insanity visited on our little kids.

As far as food, our school manager explained all the things she has to balance, in addition to those detailed above that pacify the special interest groups. And the food has to be prepared, served, and cleaned up by 5 people for the nearly 900 kids we have (beginning immediately after breakfast served to about 250). I would support us feeding the kids REAL FOOD instead of pudding pops, “chicken” nuggets, pizza, and hamburgers but the manager worries that the kids won’t eat real, nutritious food. Plus there is the problem of getting it ready on time, etc. It is a real mess.

After saying all this, I agree that we have a lot of entrenched ideas that could be examined. But we go on, “individualizing” by lumping all kids together, putting hundreds (thousands!) into one building, providing “kit” solutions to complex problems. And woe be unto you if you protest!

By HB

July 19, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

30 minutes of P.E. or recess and art and music once a week — wow! That’s pretty good considering how many complaints I’ve heard of those things being cut almost entirely. I disagree, though, that “sweat time” robs kids of the arts. Music was hugely important to me, but the fact is intense focus on testing and maintaining order has resulted in kids being chained to their desks all day with a only a short break for lunch and even that tends to be pretty regimented with assigned seating, must stay seated at the table, etc (I won’t even get into “silent” lunches). It’s unreasonable to ask kids to sit still and stay on task for 6+ hours straight. As an adult, I find it extrememly difficult to work at my desk for more than a couple of hours without taking a little break and walking around a bit — how can we expect this of children?

While it’s nice to have P.E. and recess for physical health reasons, I think it’s even more important for academic reasons. Surely time on task will be more productive when kids have had a chance to move around and take a break during the day.

By Pam

July 19, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

I have never thought school lunch was healthy so for the past 6 years I have made my daughters lunch everyday. I feel sorry for all the children who don’t have that option, parents too busy to pack lunch or no food in the house. I visit my child at least once a week for lunch and find that a lot of school lunch gets tossed in the trash. Academics suffer when children are not receiving healthy well balanced meals It’s very frustrating at our school when our teachers think it’s ok to keep a child from PE because of academics(the PE teacher is not allowed to keep the child from math class if the child misbehaves in PE) or withholds playground time because of behavior problems. Why does no one understand that elem. school children need to play (they learn from play especially social skills ) and that sitting for hours only makes the behavior problems worse.

By SweetPollyPurebred

July 19, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

It’s entirely possible to make nutritious food that looks and tastes like the junk kids like. You can make a pizza with a whole wheat crust, part-skim mozzarella cheese, reduced sugar and sodium tomato sauce, and veggies. That said, the school lunch programs are still bound by rigid federal guidelines. If you are looking for innovation and creativity from either of these bureaucracies, you are looking in the wrong place.

By RJ

July 19, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

There is an elementary school in Atlanta Public Schools (the name I forget) that has gotten much recognition because the principal decided to do away with junk food for lunch. They serve healthier meals and kids get to have recess and PE. This of course took the parents jumping on board, but the academic improvements were astounding.

I teach at a MS and I can tell you that I steer away from the cafeteria. If I ate that crap every day I’d be as big as a house! I also am a parent and I pack my kids lunches most days.

At my school we serve pizza daily, hot wings, fresh baked Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, ice cream, sugary juices and chips. And we wonder why the kids can’t concentrate (LOL).

By thomas

July 19, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

SET,

I disagree with your statement that “low IQ children require more severe discipline.” First of all, what do you mean by “low IQ children?” Are you referring to students who happen to be “behind” in school or are currently functioning “below grade level”? The problem of these students have NOTHING to do with their inate intelligence.

**90% of all those students got in that condition due to these reasons:

1) Lack of preparation and educational support from parents at home

2) Being “taught” by poorly motivated and/or trained teachers in the early grades

3)Coming from homes that have devalued education and/or the student has been turned off to school due to previous negative school experiences.**

But I understand SET’s rationale about “strong discipline” needed for “low performing” students. You see my friends “low performing”, “at risk students”, “low IQ students” are all euphemisms for Black and Hispanic students and low income white students.

You see, I have learned that there is a difference in how students are perceived and how they are treated by teachers and other school personnel. This involves not only matters of “discipline” and behavior management, but academic instruction as well. Many books have been written about the subject.

For my fellow bloggers, here is your assignment, due before school starts:

1) Read one of the following books- Black Boys, by Ann Arnett Ferguson Learning While Black, by Janice Hale From Rage to Hope, by Crystal Kuyendall or any title by Jawanza Kunjufu

2) Reflect on this topic: How do teacher attitudes affect student achievement?

You have your assignment. Materials maybe found at your local library, bookstore, Amazon.com, etc. Class will come back together in two weeks and we will discuss the topic together.

Trust me. You find will this assignment enlightening, if you have an open mind.

By thomas

July 19, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

**CATLADY, HOW DO YOU STAND IT???

READING FIRST AAAANNNNNDD LEARNING FOCUSED???**

You poor baby. How does anybody stand it there?

But I will tell you this much— the reason your administrators probably jumped on that Reading First bandwagon is MONEY, MONEY, AND MORE MONEY!!!!!! The kids may not even have time to go to the bathroom or stretch their legs outside, but the school sure got some money. That’s all a lot of these administrative pigs really care about anyway- their own careers. With Reading First, they know that these schools will get a suitcase full of money to start with and some more walking around money later on.

What people don’t know (they probably do, but just don’t care about it) is that there is a price to pay for taking Federal money. But like I said, most of these people don’t really care about what happens to the children in these schools (how many middle class schools are doing Reading First?). For most of these principals, AP’s, “ILT’s”, “ALT’s”, “ITS’s”, “Literacy Coaches”, “Math Coaches”, “Academic Coaches”, and any other “coach/leader”, “specialists”, and teachers are concerned only about their careers. I have found through life experience that many of these people use these schools as waystations. They come in, stay and few years, get the “experience” and move on to “bigger and better things.” Meanwhile, the children there suffered through all the nonsense and were no better off with all the extra bosses, experts, specialists, coaches, programs, mandates, rules, and teachers.

By Steve

July 19, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

I find these postings always interesting and frequently humorous. I was not schooled in Georgia but I now teach 7th grade in a public middle school. So many bash education. So, question nunber one is have you ever tried teaching as a profession? Question number 2 is how involved are you in any school - parent advisory council, volunteer, mentoring, tutoring, chaperone, etc? Question number 3 is how much do you really think that your complaining will really accomplish? I was raised in an environment that pushed involvement not complaining. Finally, please recognize that life isn’t perfect, neither is education or any other profession. Suppose that a dentist has his medical license revoked if too many people got cavities; a lawyer lost their license if a client actually committed a crime; a policeman lost his badge because of people speeding, or TV weather personalities losing their job because they predict rain and it does not. What about parents that tell their kids to carry cell phones to school even though school rules specifically state no cell phones on campus. That is really teaching kids a lot about discipline. Do I have a solution? No. Am I involved? Yes. I work at a Title 1 school that has met AYP for 5 straight years (exceeding state averages) despite 80% on free or reduced lunch, virtually non-existant parental involvment, gangs, drugs and all those other things that do go on in society. Would I love to have parents come in the classroom and volunteer - YES and I teach science. Do I have a large budget? NO, so we build our own science equipment. But first and foremost, the kid comes first. They are hormonally challenged, insecure, frustrated, rebellious kids. Just like they were 10, 20 and 30 years ago. Try getting involved and see if you can make a difference.

By Perri J.

July 19, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I am also concerned about some of the decisions central office makes. Has anyone considered the insanity of the “system-wide faculty meeting”? Look at it this way, an entire school system tying up morning rush hour traffic on I-20 to meet at New Birth. Lets waste an enormous amount of expensive gas, cut teacher’s pre-planning time, add additional time to a long day and paying for facilities use for NBChurch. For what ? To give a pep talk to a failing school system. Talk about a morale builder. If is actually deemed necessary, have the meeting at 1:00. Teachers can go to lunch, get to the meeting and be out before the afternoon rush. OR How about a close circuit televised meeting?

By Jesse's Girl

July 19, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

I am very involved in our children’s school/education. What bothers me so much is how so many parents think it is the school’s responsibility to raise their kids or feed them a nutritionally sound meal. Its all most can do to simply speak to the students that are not in ESOL or other special needs groups. Obviously these kids need more attention…but it is this very attention that makes school for the average(or above average) student a place to simply sit and do busy work. But I agree whole heartedly that more parents need to be involved. Even the really bad teachers step up their game if they know mom and dad are around somewhere.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Truth filter,

I don’t think you can “tweak” the education system and expect success any more than you can “tweak” the war in Iraq and expect success.

How can an education system, where the lack of discipline has become such an accepted norm that one out of ten teachers report that they have been physically assaulted on the job be anything but “failed”?

Just look at Rod Paige, who Bush made education secretary as a demonstration of the “success” of the No Child Left Behind reform. Paige presided over a school system where close to two dozen schools were found to have cheated. And that was just the tip of the iceberg of the lies and deception. jim d posted several informative links concerning Bush and his relationship to McGraw Hill publishers to show how money was driving NCLB, not any concern for our students.

These are not examples of “failing some of our kids”. That is indicative of widespread, systemic failure.

Why do you think there’s a “tremendous amount of innovation” going on? Because the status quo is failing. Talk to some people who are involved in running charter schools and you’ll see just how resistant the current “educational model” is to giving up their power.

Sure, there are a lot of success stories. But are they because of the bureaucracy of the school system, or despite the bureaucracy of the school system?

By catlady

July 19, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

thomas, we HATE RF and LFS. We also use scripted reading for basal (God help us). Teacher morale is poor, but 95% of the teachers are devoted to the children. Probably half our teachers grew up in this small county, and have a large, vested interest in student success.

I agree with your precis of RF. It is actually much worse than that, IMHO. Sort of like our own little personal Iraq, every day.

Altho’ RF was designed to be used up to third grade, our fouth and fifth grade teachers have to do it, too. Kids that are behind (an exponentially-increasing number each year, as per CRCT and Iowa scores), kids that are on grade level, and kids that are way ahead ALL have to do RF.

When we started RF we qualified for 2 EIP teachers. Now we qualify for 5, with only 30 more students enrolled in school. Quite a commentary for RF, huh?

By samiam

July 19, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Bless you, Steve. I have wanted to say that for a long time, and don’t know why I haven’t. I’ll admit it; I used to believe all the stuff people said about the failing public schools, and I worked with people in the business world who couldn’t put together a coherent sentence or figure percentages without a percentage button on a calculator. I was sure that the schools had failed them, so I decided to get certified to teach, so I could help improve the situation. Boy, was I naive. The reality is that most teachers really do try to teach, and if a student has a normal IQI had no idea what really went on in schools and in students’ lives, and most people who have never taught really don’t know either. But I really love it. I love my crazy hormone-driven middle schoolers, and being with them more than makes up for all the bureaucratic crap that we all put up with.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Mark, that may be the case in the schools your children have attended, but as a general statement that is fundamentally not true.

That is especially not the case in 5th and 8th grades, where they will do anything to move them out (5th graders to middle school, 8th graders to high school) so they can go drag down somebody else’s scores.

As you pointed out some very legitimate “ugly truths” in your post (along with a good suggestion for more tech schools, which is too much like smart for the public schools to implement) there is a very “ugly truth* out there concerning the CRCT and kids who get promoted despite failing it.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Mark, that may be the case in the schools your children have attended, but as a general statement that is fundamentally not true.

That is especially not the case in 5th and 8th grades, where they will do anything to move them out (5th graders to middle school, 8th graders to high school) so they can go drag down somebody else’s scores.

As you pointed out some very legitimate “ugly truths” in your post (along with a good suggestion for more tech schools, which is too much like smart for the public schools to implement) there is a very “ugly truth* out there concerning the CRCT and kids who get promoted despite failing it.

By SET

July 19, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Thomas: Sorry, I don’t take assignments from teachers. I’m not your student, you see. I have a reading list for you also - but we do our own research.

I am happy to define my terms. Low IQ student to me means IQ below the 100 point. Really low IQ means below 85. IQ is largely passed from parents with pre-natal and post-natal infant nutrition being an important factor.

And I make no bones about it. Different ethnic groups have different IQ distribution with Blacks having the lowest average - generally thought to be 85 for American blacks. If you have different numbers for US national averages please give them. Remember, we are talking about averages in large groups of people. These numbers will not be true for non-random groups of people. For example blacks at schools at or near military bases will have considerable higher avg numbers because the military traditionally screens out low IQ candidates even in a draft - thus taking low IQ families from all ethnics out of those populations. The NFL does the same thing. Why the ethnic IQ distribution is this way can be debated but it will not have time to change in our lifetime.

The IQ distribution of blacks is such that widely accepted stats are that only 1 in 6 is at or above 100. More than that, throw in the mixed race kids, and see which blacks ends up in 1 in 6.

IQ is not everything. But it does correlate to such things as managing your money, your health care, not getting killed in accidents and homicides, Getting a Nobel in a Science, criminality and getting better results in court, etc.

Since our glorious educational system needs to pretend all people are created equal, it acts as if none of this is true. We now fail to sort and work with the children in the system as we did previously, to the point where the whole US Public School system fails to educate much of anyone.

And yes, blacks did better in the previously largely segregated schools than now. Back then, they weren’t brought up by the schools to be prison inmates and welfare mothers. (They may have been encouraged to go for Guard and Social Worker - Civil Service!!)

I’m not advocating separate schools by race, I am by IQ and performance. That will cause racial splits to a large extent and I couldn’t care less and the students wouldn’t either. Notice anything in the current lunchrooms and playgrounds? Like seeks like.

There is no mystery about how to educate the left half of the Bell Curve. Our schools refuse to admit that there is any such thing - and they want Johnny to take foreign languages and Advanced Math. They also want Johnny to pass state HS graduation tests that are set for IQ averages that a whole lot of these students are not at (time pressure tests are greatly affected by IQ of the taker - think processing speed). Then they want to blame The Teachers for the results…

I say the Emperor Has No Clothes.

My point is, the way to proceed is to identify the left side of the Bell Curve No matter the race of the student, don’t worry that the racial gap is there, and create programs (schools) for those students that get them into honest trades, programs that use every bit of the resources the student brings with him or her - lots of which are not measured on the IQ scale..

And since lower IQ’s can’t play chess well - and see the consequences of their actions as well as higher IQs, you will have to have major discipline for that group. Corporal punishment is the quickest and most productive method, but whatever works..

Or we can just keep letting them play in the freeway and get run over. And in CA, the Mexicans (Avg IQ 93?) have been handed over the state by the Feds and are waiting to completely take political power in CA - with it’s Congressional and Senate delegation. There will be very little mercy for the black underclass when that day arrives they will have them dead or gone), and that day is on the calendar.

The black prison inmates are already coming under the domination of the Mexican Gangs and Guards. Ethnic Cleansing by bullet is underway in Los Angeles. Even being a criminal won’t be a viable option.

Having the lower avg IQ the black population of this state is getting the worst of the rotten public education in what was once one of the best education states. My group has the most to lose with this liberal education nonsense.

Brave New World.

By catlady

July 19, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

At my school NO third or 5th graders are retained, despite the fact that 25% or more of them fail it. Not just sp ed and esol, but regular (frequently unmotivated) kids. Our principal has even argued with parents (2 sets this year, that I know of) determined that their kids WILL repeat, telling the parents that “it has already been decided” that the student will go on! Why doesn’t the state AUDIT the retentions, to see if counties are following the rules? If school x has 60 third graders to fail the CRCT, there should be about all of those same kids repeating the 3rd grade! Even given the summer “variance” many of us believe exists on grading the CRCT, there are many who do not pass it a second time around, but it has already been determined that THEY WILL NOT BE RETAINED. Makes these “standards” pretty darned meaningless, huh?

By give Shaq a chance

July 19, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

In junior high I would enviously watch my fellow students go through the line to get their yummy-looking square slice of vanilla ice cream or devils food cookies, while every day I would bring my plain little sliced egg sandwich on whole wheat bread with an apple. Off topic, I know. When I was taking my teaching courses to get certified the first thing we learned is people who know nothing at all about education are constantly trying to tweak public education. And does it ever get better? Maybe not, but they keep trying. I say give Shaq a shot at it, at least he’s trying. I think it’s great to have role models in school.

By Truth Filter

July 19, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

HoldingAJC…

I don’t think the bureaucracy you talk about is the reason students are achieveing and I don’t think it’s the reason students are NOT achieving.

And I don’t think innovation is proof that the “system” is broken. Do successful corporations stop being innovative when they are successful? No. Just look at Apple as an example.

“Traditional” schools serve some students very well. For those it does not, it’s good to try innovative, non-traditional approaches.

There is no one way that is going to effectively teach tens of millions of students. There needs to be different options for different students.

Just because there’s a restaurant that doesn’t have anything I like on the menu doesn’t mean it’s a bad restaurant. It just means it’s not the restaurant for me…

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Mark, if you don’t believe me about students being promoted who fail the CRCT, read Catlady’s post. It may not be the case in your children’s school, but it’s common. All too common.

By Truth Filter

July 19, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Boy, SET, you’re an idiot

IQ tests are notoriously unreliable indicators of success in school and life. They are also HEAVILY affected by environmental issues and are, generally, meant to be used for individual development — not aggregation or comparison.

Separating kids by IQ? What’s next? Schools for kids with blonde hair and blue eyes?

By Blind Homer

July 19, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

On topic, there isn’t any strong correlation between learning, in the sense of acquiring knowledge, and resistance to change, which is more socially and psychologically driven. Most people tend to value variety and security, which are almost mutually exclusive. Generally, the older and/or more ‘successful’ people are, the more they tend to favor security over variety, because they perceive change as threatening.
Off topic, No Child Gets Ahead, and the related CRCT scores and AYP is just bureaucratic nonsense, mostly smoke and mirrors. More people meeting minimum standards while cut scores are lowered and started, in some cases, around 40% didn’t mean anything to begin with did it? Wow, 80% of third graders in Georgia can now answer at least 40% of the questions on a 1st grade standardized English test. Well whoppee Mr Perdue and Ms Cox!

By catlady

July 19, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

Blind Homer, you sure can “see” through the BS pretty well!

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

And I don’t think innovation is proof that the “system” is broken. Do successful corporations stop being innovative when they are successful? No. Just look at Apple as an example.

Do one out of ten Apple managers report being physically assaulted on the job? (And then blamed for it, because of their “managment”?)

And if the system is working as well as some Margaret Spellings and George Bush want to claim, why is there widespread documented cheating?

Why is Spellings even there in the first place? Because Rod Paige’s “Houston Miracle” was exposed to be a sham built on widespread documented cheating.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 19, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

And I don’t think innovation is proof that the “system” is broken. Do successful corporations stop being innovative when they are successful? No. Just look at Apple as an example.

Do one out of ten Apple managers report being physically assaulted on the job? (And then blamed for it, because of their “management”?)

And if the system is working as well as some Margaret Spellings and George Bush want to claim, why is there widespread documented cheating?

Why is Spellings even there in the first place? Because Rod Paige’s “Houston Miracle” was exposed to be a sham built on widespread documented cheating.

By Truth Filter

July 19, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Maybe that’s where we differ HoldingAJC…

I don’t consider NCLB the “traditional system” of education. It’s an accountability system (and I’m not arguing its merits here)

By SET

July 19, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Truth Filter: I don’t remember anything about your background so I assume you are a student. The name calling in public discourse is a particular indicator of maturity level. A real giveaway.

This blog is an exchange of viewpoints - please continue and give us more of your background and life experience and why you take the points of view you mention. Is it your years of experience with what???

We can debate IQ stats specifically but it’s not the topic here. I would like to know why and how you have come to rule out whatever it was I said that produced an emotional response.. Maybe you have a valid point here. I can be wrong about things - especially with the CA vs GA viewpoint. Tell us more please.

By IQ!!!

July 19, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

Actually, an average IQ is determined to be anywhere between 85 (Low Average) and 115 (High Average). A person is considered Mildly Intellectually Disabled with an IQ between 55-70. An IQ of 71-84 places you in the slow learner range. There are different components in getting an Full Scale IQ, which are usually verbal, non-verbal, processing speed, and perceptional reasoning. An IQ simply measures your capacity to learn information (with prior knowledge and exposure also playing factors).

By thomas

July 19, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

Catlady, the truth of the matter is that NO principal wants to retain any students in grades 3 and up. The reason— logistics. These people don’t want to set the precedent of having left-behinds to deal with in grades 3 and especially 5.

Think it— you had 10 kids out of 120 third graders who still didn’t pass the CRCT, even after summer school. What do you do with them? Try to pile them back in a third grade class for next year? Or let them move up with the group onto fourth grade?

What about fifth grade? Are you going to hold back 16-20 big, grown, musty, trouble-making boys and girls? Of course not, those jokers are getting out of here!!!!!

These principals want to keep these b******* moving. It’s a business decision for them. And you know what? I don’t blame them for that. It’s too late at third, fourth, and fifth grade to start talking about SST’s, retentions, etc. The problem started in kindergarten, not fifth grade.

By CRH

July 19, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

Not that SET needs any help, but actually, IQ is a very VALID indicator of many things. IF the IQ test is given as prescribed. Too many people think an IQ test is similar to those “on-line” IQ tests or the show about being as smart as a 5th grader. There are some stringent requirements for giving a proper IQ test. IQ is not the ONLY indicator of success or behavior…but it is a MAJOR one! I could generally pick out the lower IQ students in my classes within the 1st week of school, by simply observing them and looking at the quality of their work.

By Truth Filter

July 19, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

I’ll have to remain a mystery to you, SET. But I’m not a student.

Your arguments have been hashed and rehashed — on this blog, in the blogosphere and in the research world. The truth is that the books and reserach that started this line of “thinking” was debunked and exposed for what it was — crap. And, yet, it’s still trotted out as “science.”

IQ!!! has a pretty eloquent definition of the IQ. Environmental factors play a big part in IQ tests. So it stands to reason that a poor child whose parents have less educational attainment, who is read to less often, who is intellectually challenged less (even in his or her youngest years) will have a lower IQ.

Unfortunately, there is an economic and achievement gap between Whites and Blacks, but it’s not nature or “God’s plan”. It’s a history of racism, oppression and low expectations (some of it from within the Black community, itself) that has led to this.

I’m sorry for the name-calling, but at some point, you have to call your screeds what they are…garbage. And the unfortunate part of the blogosphere’s is that it gives that kind of junk science a forum in a mainstream newspaper.

By thomas

July 19, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

SET,

You make be talking to the next Johnathan Kozol. In short, the IQ thing isn’t going to work on a practical matter. You will never be able to use IQ as a criteria for educational programs. In fact even tracking is SUPPOSEDLY looked down on now (on a side note, however, its use is RAMPANT through the country).

At this point, I am ready to venture into the realm of heterogenous grouping in schools, integration, and inclusion. After reading the works of Kozol, Alfie Kohn, and others (of various philosophies and persuasions), I am willing to advocate for something more progressive and inclusive— on a social scale. I my opinion, the current system has not worked for all students. I came to this conclusion the same way Kozol, Kohn, and others have- through observation and actual experience in the classroom.

Who knows, one day, I might pilot an inclusion program. Write a book. Become a consultant. Be an administrator. SET, who knows, one day I might become famous. You can tell your friends “I used to chat with __ on a blog years ago.” I might be like another Siegfried Engelmann (developer of Direct Instruction) or Ruby Payne.

When I go on national tour or start my consulting company, I’ll let you know. I’ll even come to your school (at a nice discount, of course), and give a presentation.

By DB

July 19, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this

I am reading this blog and am finding yet another reason to be happy that that my kids aren’t in a public school, with all the muck being served at lunch. Their private school has an incredible lunch spread — a reasonably tasty main meal, a beautiful salad bar, two soups, a sandwich bar with different breads, bagels, fillings and spreads, lots of fruits available, as well as an ice cream bar, milk, and fountain drinks — not sodas, but juices and water. Because lunch is part of the tuition, kids can choose whatever they want. (Kids in lower grades have have a separate cafeteria with more limited choices, because the choices are a little too overwhelming.)

I remember my middle school cafeteria -(a school for 1,200 kids) - it was WONDERFUL! The supervisor was a culinary artist, and made the most incredible yeast rolls you ever put in your mouth. No mystery meats, she used fresh vegetables, and her desserts were so yummy that at Thanksgiving and Christmas, she and her staff would sell her pecan, pumpkin and mince pies to families and roll the money back into the cafeteria budget. Back in the late 60s, early 70s, a couple of thousand dollars back into the budget was a godsend, and it was how she supplemented her budget. She took real pride in her work and craft — the cafeteria sparkled, and by God, no one dared to leave trash on “her” tables or the floor!

Ah, memories …

By Tony

July 19, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

Kozol has presented America with much pontification that sheds light on the problems - societal not educational - and provides us with NO useful solutions. At most, he insinuates that we should take from the rich and give to the poor. His book, Shame of the Nation, carefully discusses several school systems in the US whose resources are poorly used and whines that no one does enough to change things. In short, he implies that white middle class Americans are to blame because they establish communities with school systems that work. In doing this, he also implies, that they move away and leave black and poor families behind with few resources to provide a good education for their children. Most solutions that would address the concerns he raises would be much like those of Harrison Bergeron (Kurt Vonnegut, read the story) I can’t help but wonder if this is going to be the current result of No Child Left Behind!

By tigertamer

July 19, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

Re retaining students. How about putting all of the retained students in their own repeat classes. Then their needs can be dealt with more specifically and any discipline problems dealt with in a more tailored fashion (a la SET). That way, my small 5th grade daughter won’t have to sit next to anyone large, musty and stupid, which would make her life much easier.

BTW, the IQ test, properly administered is a very good indicator of future success/behavior. SET is correct. It also has a large hereditary component just like it does with any other member of the animal kingdom.

There are always exceptions. However, usually smart lions have smart baby lions, smart dogs have smart baby dogs, smart chinchillas have smart baby chinchillas - this does not happen because the stupid chinchillas are not exposed to as many museums as the smart chinchillas. It happens because of genetics. Humans are just another species of animal. Our genetics work the same way as that of any other animal.

You train a dull dog very differently than you train a very smart dog. The same goes for any other animal. Why would it be any different for homo sapiens?

By Tony

July 19, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know the origin of IQ tests and how/why they were first used?

By SET

July 19, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

Truth Filter: Glad to see your post. You are probably very wrong about your take on the IQ thing.

I only say that because I see what has happened to US public Education since 1960 - I’ve lived it. Through my parent’s and Grandparent’s generation (many of them were teachers in Aparthied America as well as integrated Western State schools after the Black Migration west following WWII) I have heard a lot about their students and how their schools and classes were run. It was similar to the Nuns I had. My Great Grandfather was an Educator in segregated schools in Atlanta GA in the late 1800s, Later relocating to run a black school district in Ohio through early 1920s. So we go way back.

Charles Murray, Jensen and related authors and their research explains why things have happened and why education is where it is, better than the theories of the white liberals I’ve grown up around in Berkeley and elsewhere in CA. By a long shot.

Your ideas that these problems (school performance) are in any way caused by poverty and racism and flawed testing is so shot full of holes over time, it doesn’t bear discussion.

And I’m afraid that time is actually running out for some people. The next generation to comes to power in this country is no longer interested in keeping on life support people who can’t function. Our proletariat is being replaced en toto by the Mexidous. What will our public schools do to teach the current students how to survive in this Brave New World? Because if the schools don’t teach, all the students have to fall back on is the parents. With a 70 to 80% b******* rate in some regions, some people don’t have a Plan B.

We need the schools to do the job they were created for and used to do - Produce students ready for industry, military or advanced training, not for San Quentin and Pelican Bay State Prisons.

Black students on the average require different educational tactics than Ken and Barbie. IQ is the reason why. It’s always been true. Our problems started in the 1960s when the Great Society decided that everybody is the same. People are not the same People - ethnics, are different. Educational failure came when we stopped the discipline and tried to make the students happy. They can get happy when they are 25 and self supporting as far as I’m concerned.

By jim d

July 20, 2007 8:24 AM | Link to this

POOR Shaq!

He surely must realize that the children are only in the schools for about 6-7 hours a day for 180 days out of the year and that changing ones eating habits once they’ve reached the age to select what they eat (2 yrs. old in most households) is an inefficacious attempt to modify ones already learned behavior.

But hey—he is being paid with tax dollars!

By Lee

July 20, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this

What Shaq ran into was a Government Bureaucracy, which is set up to protect the system. It’s self-perpetuating. Good luck finding anybody with the ability to make a decision and accountability in that scenario.

There’s an old adage that says: “A weak man likes a lot of rules.”

How many times have you had an administrator or bureaucrat tell you “I agree with you, but my hands are tied.”

Translation: “Thank God I’ve got this policy manual to refer to so I don’t have to make a decision.”

By jim d

July 20, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this

Tony,

Intelligence testing began in earnest in France, when in 1904 psychologist Alfred Binet was commissioned by the French government to find a method to differentiate between children who were intellectually normal and those who were inferior. The purpose was to put the latter into special schools where they would receive more individual attention. In this way the disruption they caused in the education of intellectually normal children could be avoided.

Maybe they had something there. Think?

By jim d

July 20, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

MY BAD

He’s being paid with advertising dollars. (sorry)

The point is that kids spend more time at home and are learning eating habits there —not at school. Changing learned behaviors isn’t likely to happen as long as the environment those behaviors are learned in don’t change.

By Bridget Gutierrez

July 20, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

jim d: On the show, Shaq’s actually working with the families, too. He said he realizes that some of them are part of the problem.

In one episode, he sent a nutritionist to their homes to work with the parents and kids on preparing healthier meals.

As I said earlier, the show is really well done. They’ve obviously done their homework and are covering all the angles of the childhood obesity problem.

If you happen to catch the program next week, let me know what you think.

By Tony

July 20, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Jim D. - IQ testing has a rather disingenuous history. If you go on to read the details of the early testing movement you will find very distrubing information! Eugenics was one of the agenda items. Identifying inferior humans was one goal of using tests - something Adolf Hitler took advantage of.

By jim d

July 20, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

Thanks, I’ll check it out.

By jim d

July 20, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

Tony,

I totally agree. I was simply answering your questions as asked without going into the long sorted history of what has transpired since the origion of IQ testing.

By HHmmm

July 20, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

A loaded question, I know. But as a society, do we really think black people are less intelligent because of biology, environment, or what? I ask because of this..My very good friend and her husband have 5 children. They were all adopted at around 1 month of age. 2 of the children are white; 2 are black; and the other is mixed race(black/white). None of them are natural siblings. The black children were adopted first, now late elementary aged. The white children came last; they are 2 and 4.

We have all had many discussions about this, as it is rather fascinating. The white children, as young as they are, are much smarter than the black children. They show a better grasp for analytical thinking and have a sense of action and consequence that the black children do not seem to have. The mixed child is average in everything. I should note that none of these children have behavioural or emotional issues…they all came from high school aged mothers who just couldn’t care for them. There was no horible situation they were rescued from…just normal kids.

The reason I ask is because some of you actually seem to know a good bit about the educational system. My friend and her husband have been warned that their black children will be placed in SPED. They want to pay out of pocket for a private tudor after school. They do not want to make the problems worse in a social sense for their children by giving them that label. Any suggestions? Thank you.

By SET

July 20, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

HHmmmm: The children in question are individuals. Yes we know the averages. We deal with averages on who’s going to get cancer also. I think Patti LaBelle has had all the women in her family wiped out from breast cancer - she buried her mother and sister(s) - but she gets up in the morning and goes to work and does the best she can on watching her own health. When I read her story of the number of close female relatives who died and the ages that they died at I shuddered. But she is still here and still working.

Your friend should have the children tested and work with them to get the best opportunities for them with whatever they have to work with. Keep their morals and their attitude high. Things will probably work out just fine as long as you take care of business and strive for the very best you can. Besides, At least one of the kids are smarter than all the others… Things will go better if they work with each other in life. The smart one will need help… I’m not a surgeon like other relatives. But they can’t deal with accounting and legal like I can. Everybody has a role.

IQ is only part of a person’s presentation. The NFL players aren’t the brightest lightbulbs in the tray and they’d have a good life if they can get the dogfighting and the drugging down to reasonable levels.

And you sure don’t have to be bright to be productive and happy. Other things are important also.

By Jeff

July 20, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

L2T:

I could modify the idea (particularly easy since it is still in its infancy and constantly evolving anyway!):

Have STATE run (not local) “education facilities” - similar in look and discipline to “detention facilities” where students that do not meet progress standards (such as x number of lessons completed in each subject within y number of days) are sent 24/7 until they are caught up. The accomodations would be the same as in “detention facilities”, complete with controlled access, bars, and concertina wire. The message would be clear (and two fold): A) Do it on your own time, because you DON’T want to do it on ours. B) If you don’t get an education, prepare to live like this the rest of your life.

By HHmmm

July 20, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Thanks. All of the kids are awesome. They just don’t want the black ones labled like that. The real issue is that they want to tudoe privately but the school is wanting them in SPED. Can they fight this? Or does the school have the final say?

By jim d

July 20, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Schools Never have the final say unless you let them!

By thomas

July 20, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

WOW.

It is the year 2007 and we still have people talking about IQ. It sounds to me like they actually believe that one group of humans is innately more or less intelligent than another.

Oh God, I hope not. In the year 2007. This foolishness made no sense in 1863. But today, after all these so-called advances, it still exists. Truth of the matter is: Man has not changed. No matter what technological advances we enjoy today, man himself has not changed.

I can’t believe it. And the IRONIC thing is— these are supposedly to be teachers!!!!!!!!

I SWEAR TO ALMIGHTY GOD. THEY ARE ACTUALLY PROVING MY POINT. I POSTULATED A THEORY THAT BASED ON OBSERVATION, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND RESEARCH, ONE FACTOR IN THE LOWER PERFORMANCE OF BLACK AND LATINO STUDENTS IS THE LOWER EXPECTATIONS AND ATTITUDE OF THEIR TEACHERS.

Sociologists, psychologists, and educators have actually conducted research on this topic. I am actually GLAD to read the responses on this blog. It gives me more empirical data— first hand accounts from teachers about their personal beliefs on the students they serve. I just find some of the responses amazing.

By Tony

July 20, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

HHmmm, The parents do not have to agree to special education placement. They have a right to decline testing and placement. Private tutoring may help improve the children’s abilities with some of the skills they seem to be lacking. But, if they want the school to provide/pay for the tutoring they will probably not be successful.

By Jeff

July 20, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

thomas:

Your theory doesn’t hold with me. I was the same mean old son of a gun with the white kids and the black kids and had the exact same grading standards and expectations for each group.

The difference was that the black kids would blame anyone but themselves for their failing grades. The white kids (on the whole, there were a few exceptions) would take personal responsibility for their grades, even when lower than they wanted.

By SET

July 20, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

Thomas:

Get a clue. Do you think that all the ethnic pathology we see in the USA has any other explanation? Do you believe people want to be stupid? Do you believe there is racial bias in being able to count by 7s? Do you believe that brain processing speed is affected by “racism” or whether people don’t like you? Tell that to the SF Chinese.

I’m not saying I like the data or can be certain of every cause of the scoring. But “Yes, we do have a problem with the ethnicities having different averages and different IQ distributions”. Duh…

Now what is society going to do to save the lower functioning group from filling the prisons - which in the future are going to be put on strict budgets a la Phoenix AZ County Jail ($1.50 to $3 an inmate/day food budget). After CA collapses from $150K/year prison beds and $400k year State Hospital Beds the other states will not allow their spending to do the same. I see Concentration Camps on the horizon - and don’t think our new “citizens” won’t vote for them.

I see newly arrived black teenagers from Oakland in my city (They’re being pushed out of the Bay Area by the economy) in their tribal dress (baggy pants, oversized T shirt, hoodies, grills) walking their aggressive pit bulls. The locals want to lynch them. 3 Strikes is waiting for them (did you know you can get all your strikes in one crime after age 16?) In Ca once you have 2 strikes the next felony however trivial carries 25 to life - and shoplifting with a prior is a felony. So is possession of narcotics, hell, anything they like to do is a felony.

Although the coastal cities (LA, SF, Oakland - where the ghetto blacks came from) don’t enforce 3 strikes or the death penalty, the rest of CA does. Some counties enforce it to the hilt.

These kids come from public schools where they are taught no deportment, no morals, and no responsibility. And News Flash… They have no “parents”.

And they won’t even listen to or believe their public defenders when they are talked to. It worked with the teachers…

You want to blame the Teachers for the pathology? That only works untill you have to actually work with these people and the schools. The teachers may have given up and stopped fighting with the proletariat kids but they didn’t cause this underclass pathology. And the pit bull walkers aren’t even proletariat. They are prison bait.

By Gail

July 20, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

First, to Thomas: Thank you for your comment about all this IQ crap. I’m sick of hearing it from SET. We still live in a society where so many things are still skewed toward “white is right” including IQ tests and the results.

to HHmmmm regarding the potential special ed kids: Having a child with special needs is a constant balancing act. Parents have to be encouraging and advocate for their special ed kids as much as needed to help them reach their full potential. At the same time, resources are needed and a child’s weaknesses have to be highlighted to obtain them.

I would urge your friends to be cautious before declining special ed services. I have seen some sad cases where parents were unable to accept that their child needed special ed services and the children suffer for it because they may not be able to reach their full potential without those services. Denial can be a big factor for some people.

My personal opinion is that the stigma associated with special ed has decreased among children, probably because of inclusion. Kids just don’t seem to make as big a deal of it as they did when I was in school.

As long as your friends are involved paren