AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2007 > July > 17 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USSchool Reputations: In The Eye Of The Beholder?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
School reputations are a funny thing. According to past polls I’ve seen and read about, parents tend to rate their own schools more highly than others — even when their campus has not met federally mandated academic standards.
In last year’s annual Phi Delta Kappa/Gallup poll on attitudes toward public schools, nearly half of those surveyed gave their community schools an “A” or “B” grade — pretty high marks for a nation that’s constantly wringing its hands over the state of public schools.
I started thinking about this after reading Diane Stepp’s story about how East Cobb Middle School last week shed the dreaded “needs improvement” label, given under the No Child Left Behind Act.
Principal David Chiprany seemed downright giddy that his campus had met the “adequate yearly progress” standards for two years in a row to shake off the designation. “This is a very huge step,” he told Diane. “…This will bolster the school’s reputation. Yes, it definitely will.”
Will it really? According to that PDK/Gallup poll, the closer people are to schools in the community, the higher the grades they give them. So, while 49 percent of residents rate their local schools favorably, parents are even more enthusiastic, with 64 percent giving their children’s campuses high marks.
They say beauty’s in the eye of the beholder. Is it possible a school’s reputation is, too, and that test scores and AYP ratings really have little bearing on community perceptions?
Comments
By Attn. Clayton Parents
July 17, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
I see the last three blogs have generated a grand total of 8 posts. Yet with discipline being the hot button issue it is, why is there still ZERO coverage of the Teachers’ Bill of Rights passed in Clayton County?
FINALLY a school system addresses discipline head on, and the AJC (and all of its resources) is nowhere to be found? Especially with all the well documented discipline problems in Clayton (you can look it up in the AJC) one would think this would be a story worth reporting.
Patti never shied away from covering issues related to the Metro Association of Classroom Educators (who pushed for this to be passed). Has the AJC’s admitted bias against MACE compromised the journalistic integrity of the Get Schooled blog?
By samiam
July 17, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
Maybe the reason locals think their schools are okay is because they see what goes on close-up. Ususally if their own children and their children’s friends are doing all right, and they feel that the school is safe, they are satisfied. They don’t just go by what the state or federal government says. In the first year of NCLB, my school failed because a special ed. teacher didn’t do the paperwork correctly on her students. These are students who are severely to profoundly retarded. These are people who have to be fed and diapered. They cannot learn, but they are counted, too. Other schools have failed because they have a high a few immigrants who cannot read the test.
By mmm
July 17, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this
Perception is huge in education. Psycologically, when one is stuck with something less than ideal—humans make excuses or refuse to see the imperfections so that they don’t have to admit to their own powerlessness. If I have no choice about the economic circumstanced that force me to put my kids in a certain school—I will rate it highly despite any misgivings so that I can tell myself that I am adequately serving my kids. Battered wife syndrome, anyone?
In the world of private school marketing, it is well understood that a parent about to make a decision on where to send their child will need to here 10 good “word of mouth” comments to overcome one parent out in the community trashing the school. This is why mid tier ones listen to their parents better. The elite ones already have that “they are excellent and you the parent better behave or you will be judged unworthy to go” reputation, which they can coast on. Charter schools may or may not be educationally sound and fiscally responsible, but because they give hope to the thousands of “battered wives”, they start to create the kind of demanding parental expectation that has systematically been beaten or drained out of the working class in this country by our deaf educrates.
p.s. How many of our bloggers have seen the new Harry Potter movie? I presently feel like I am dealing with the Ministry of Magic and know several Doloris personalities in the flesh.
By luvs2teach
July 17, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this
I think how much AYP matters depends on the school. East Cobb is in the unique (and unenviable) position of sharing boundaries (and a feeder elementary school) with (sound the trumpets) Dickerson Middle School - yeah that Dickerson - “best-middle-school-in-the-state” Dickerson.
Blah, blah, blah…
Parents weren’t happy to be on the wrong side of the boundary line, and then to have the school not make AYP - that’s an added slap in the face.
So in this case, Mr. Chiprany has reason to be giddy - the East Cobb area (as a whole, not just the attendance area) is an informed community and community perception is huge (and this was the school with the infamous cake incident a couple years ago, remember?).
Congratulations, East Cobb!
How much AYP impacts the perception of the school depends on several factors - first, you have to know what it is and what it means - and wasn’t there just a story about how many people didn’t understand NCLB?
Second, you have to look at your children and how they are doing - unfortunately, a lot of people see that their cildren have ‘A’s and they don’t question the quality of those grades. Look at their test scores - if they are grade level or better on a national test, I think there is less of a concern. Is the school safe? Does your child feel safe? Do the teachers seem like they care or do they seem like they are burnt out? Are there activities your child can do and clubs or teams they can belong to? What is the PTA involvement?
It’s a bigger picture than one test score will show.
Finally, some parents are savvy enough to know that a school failed solely because of SPED or ESOL, and that isnt going to impact their child as much - in the case of ESOL, maybe the parent value the diversity - who knows.
I just find it hard to see schools and systems pass their SACS accreditation and yet be NI on AYP…
By Mark
July 17, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this
Almost all bad-mouthing of the public schools comes from private school parents who don’t want their children exposed to children of other demographic groups and from home-schooling parents who want to shield their children from society in general. Parents know their local schools better than anyone else and are generally happy with them…despite the nonsense they hear from “journalists,” talk radio folks and the school choice zeolots. Shows parents are a lot smarter than some people give them credit for… AYP does matter to a school’s reputation, but wise parents will seek out the reason(s) for a school not making AYP and will react accordingly.
By get yer facts straight
July 17, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this
luvs2teach— The cake incident was at East Cobb Middle School, not Dickerson.
By Larry
July 17, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
Looking at this situation from the other side, the people who complain the most are the least knowledgeable.
When involved people see a problem, they work to implement a solution; they don’t declare public education a failure.
After six years as an education message board moderator, I can say from experience Mark hit the nail directly on the head.
By holdingAJCaccountable
July 17, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this
“Parents know their local schools better than anyone else and are generally happy with them…despite the nonsense they hear from “journalists,” talk radio folks and the school choice zeolots.”
If “parents know their local schools better than anyone” why is homeschooling (and the push for school choice) growing by LEAPS and BOUNDS?
Maybe THAT “Shows parents are a lot smarter than some people give them credit for…”
And it’s “talk radio’s fault” that fully one third of all new teachers quit within five years because they are disgusted with the profession?
It’s “talk radio’s fault” that around 40% of students fail to graduate?
It’s “talk radio’s fault” that one in ten teachers report being physcially assaulted on the job?
It’s “talk radio’s fault” that colleges constantly talk of how underprepared today’s students are?
It’s “talk radio’s fault” that we score near the bottom of the industrialized nations on numerous eductation assessments?
You sound like a shill for the Board of Education.
By mmm
July 17, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
Larry, I disagree. Yes, there is a general level of complaint that is the product of political manipulation or uninformed bias. But many people that are involved try to address issues, burn out, and leave. I am beginning to feel that in my district, all my efforts are a waste. It is hopeless and those who leave are truly the wise ones.
By thomas
July 17, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this
That’s something I don’t understand either- WHY THE AJC COMPLETELY IGNORES THE “TEACHER BILL OF RIGHTS” PASSED IN CLAYTON. Maybe it was because this landmark took place in Clayton County, the supposed site of all things evil. Or maybe it is because the establishment really doesn’t support teachers.
Which one is it Bridget? Why isn’t this a topic of discussion? You don’t need to grasp for straws for the blog. You have a good topic right there.
By luvs2teach
July 17, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
get yer facts straight - maybe you need to taking some reading comprehension lessons - Mr. Chiprany is the principal of East Cobb, and “this is the school where the cake incident happened” in the same paragraph was also refering to East Cobb.
I reread the blog twice, and I still can’t see how you could infer that I meant Dickerson, and not East Cobb.
I’ve got my facts straight - do you?
By Bridget Gutierrez
July 17, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this
thomas and holding/attn: If you’ve been keeping up with the changes on our education team, then you should know that, unfortunately, the AJC hasn’t had an education reporter in Clayton County for some time.
You should also know by now that I have my own beat responsibilities in addition to hosting the blog. So I have to rely on other AJC education reporters, who cover other metro Atlanta school systems, to keep me abreast of what’s happening around the city.
Obviously, without a full-time education reporter in Clayton, I have no way of knowing what’s happening there, unless I see a story reported by another news organization or by our county government reporter.
It’s really that simple.
That said, as Get Schooled regulars, you know that I run guest blogs as often as I can.
I do that partially so that in the event there’s an issue that I’m not familiar with — but that people in the community are talking about — there’s an opportunity to discuss it here.
I’ve put out calls for guest bloggers several times and neither of you has ever submitted anything. Perhaps now you’ll consider doing so.
By Larry
July 17, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this
mmm - Yes, I too have seen that happen for very legitimate reasons. But, I have also seen these same people blame a specific policy and the elected officials responsible for it. The frustrating part is convincing the voters that a given elected official badly needs unseating, which is what these folks tried first. I know families that eventually left public schools and had great success in the private sector.
What I haven’t seen, is any of them declare a school, school system, or public education a failure. Any ill-advised policy will have the same effect regardless of where it’s implemented and blaming a school for something voters have the ability, if not the interest, to change strikes some of us as the same mistake as accepting NCLB’s “needs improvement” label without knowing what happened.
The frustration level may very well be rising. I’m not sure how to measure something like that, but it seems as if that would have the opposite effect on the poll; that is, those directly involved would be less satisfied with their schools than those who were not.
By Mark
July 17, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
The Clayton County Bill of Teachers Rights should be a non-issue because nothing in it is new. It contains measures that are already in place. It’s just grandstanding by one of the board members. As far as the assertions put forth by Holding AJC Accountable…. I did not blame talk radio for anything other than being part of the group that tries to make people think public schools are so bad…when, in fact, they are quite a bargain! Dropout rates are lower now than when our fathers and forefathers were in school. Teachers, as well as people in other professions, often change careers…That’s nothing new. Today’s public school teachers are talented, creative, hard-working people and it is time we give them their due respect.
By mmm
July 17, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this
Larry,
I’m sure the frustration levels are different in different places, people, and times in the same individual. If not, real estate agents would have a much harder time making commissions.
I would not interpret the fact that the approval ratings of those in the schools is higher than those who are not, as being a meaningful measure of their true situation, as you do.
In this case it is only 15% higher, and the overall favorable rating is less than 50%. There are some well established patterns in Dekalb where people either move out of the county or demand magnet programs or transfers. I wonder what the approval rating would be if you could do “exit interviews” with those who migrate.
I would certainly hope that those who purchase a product are more than 15% happier than those who don’t, and overall more than 65% happy with any product.
As to the question of the power of inertial and incumbancy protecting those who are not working well—-that is a problem that we each must calculate our probability of success and capacity to endure prior to attempting throwing our hat into the ring.
By catlady
July 17, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this
I just find it hard to see schools and systems pass their SACS accreditation and yet be NI on AYP…
In my experience, SACS is as big a sham as AYP. OUr school, when it went up for accreditation, identified 8 things we needed to work on over the next four years. We worked—a little—on 3 of them and accomplished one. The others we NEVER DID, but when SACS came around for reaccreditation, we passed with flying colors! NO ONE ASKED “what happened to these things?” (The CO, who had told us they would support our results from our self study, did not; in fact, contramanded much of it) and our principal made no effort on the others. Yet, the Good Ole Boy SACS committee did not blink, just offered us the prize again. It was the biggest farce you can imagine!
SACS means little, AYP means little, NCLB means little, and CRCT means less. Period. IMHO.
By luvs2teach
July 17, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this
LOL, catlady, I originally typed, but then deleted, something to the effect of “…and I wonder which one is less meaningful…”
I would look at so many things beyond AYP - Free/reduced lunch, teacher turnover and experience, PTA involvement, etc, etc.
By Terry
July 17, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this
HERE’S A STORY OUT OF HOUSTON COUNTY:
This parent was stuck between a rock and a hardplace and followed doctors recommendation— what does she get? A truancy Charge!!
http://www.macon.com/197/story/88265.html#recent_comm
By Terry
July 17, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this
Want to know about Houston County— look what they do.
This mom was stuck between a rock and a hard place, under medical advice kept her son home— they slapped her with truancy .. And she provided the doctors notes to the school system.
Geesh— No wonder people don’t trust public schools http://www.macon.com/197/story/88265.html
By Truth Filter
July 17, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this
holdingAJC…
Actually — homeschooling is not growing by leaps and bounds. It’s growing at about the rate of growth here in Georgia.
I did research on this for a project I was working on. It’s growing at a rate just slightly higher than the rate of public school growth in Georgia.
By SET
July 17, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this
The Houston County story is amusing to me. Our District Attorneys are up to their necks in gangs, murder and mayhem. Our School Board can go down to the courthouse with hats in hand and would be laughed out of their 2 minute appointment with a case such as that. Maybe the Houston County GA criminal justice system is flush with money and has extra time for this type of jury trial. But it is their town and if they feel sufficiently strongly that the mother is a criminal in need of a jury trial - it’s their town. Good for them.
Amazing the regional difference in this Brave New World.
Back to topic - the school reputations here is displayed in the real estate values in the respective school districts. The same house (exact same model) across the boundry in a “better” district is worth a lot more in price per square ft. This process reduces to easily counted numerical value the “reputation” of a district.
Of course nearly all of the new housing tracts around here in gated communities with CC&R’s straight from Berlin. All that’s missing is the guard station - those are reserved for the really upscale housing tracts.
Very interesting things are happing to CA real estate. Ghetto dwellers are being pushed out of some of their coastal diggs and are infiltrating inland and suburban areas - a process made easier by the real estate upheaval and the gentrification of formerly ghetto areas in the CA coastal urban zones. As a result the schools & police are having to deal with diversity they haven’t seen before. I’m not sure where this is all going but it does represent severe change. There is rising conflict - stores and restaurants and going to “no checks” and dress code signs are going up specifically banning grills and other ghetto accessories. (Like we ever had to worry about “grills” before?) The pit bull population is multiplying.
Wonder how the local “good” schools are going to deal with all this?
By Terry
July 17, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this
The problem in Houston County is you have a school board member that also serves as a judge. That will tell you something. I don’t think half the district is even aware of that and they should be
By Janine
July 17, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this
I’m with catlady…SACS is such joke!!!!Another smoke and mirrors event. In my 33 years of teaching I/my schools went through numerous SACS “investigations”. We were Always coached on what to say. I Aways worked on “SACs stuff” reports….It was like completing an application . It gave directions ….explicit…We followed them EXPLICITLY!!
By Janine
July 17, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this
THe SACS deal is kind of like the teacher evaluation procedure in GA….IMHO…any teacher who cannot FOLLOW the DIRECTIONS/guidelines, for 20 minutes, 3 times a year ..[or one or two times sometimes].. for the teacher evaluation instrument in GA… and pass with flying colors has an IQ bordering on “dull normal” .[That probably dates me …it was an IQ category years ago.!]
By holdingAJCaccountable
July 17, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this
“Today’s public school teachers are talented, creative, hard-working people and it is time we give them their due respect.”
If we agree nowhere else Mark, we agree there. Yes thay are; and yes they do. And even though I highlighted some major concerns with public education, I can still hold this view, because I’ve seen many examples of teachers having a positive impact on lives. BUT, more often than not, their successes are despite of the school system, and certainly not because of it.
I know you claim turnover affects many professions-and it does-but what other profession tolerates one in ten of their members being physically assaulted with HUGE amounts of anecdotal evidence that the perpetrators often go unpunished?
And speaking of “due respect” I think the Teachers’ Bill of Rights in Clayton is a good step. I bet if you asked teachers about similar legislation in the past, they’d say that it was the old legislation that was “grandstanding”. All bark and no bite. It’s all about intent and I think the board members who pushed this have every intention that teachers start getting the respect they truly deserve.
One can be an advocate for teachers yet still realize there are MAJOR problems with the schools. Our standing vs industrialized nations, the acknowledgement by universities that many students haven’t even mastered basic writing skills, the well documented cheating that has only gotten worse with No Child Left Behind and the BILLIONS we spend for all extra layers of bureaucracy (not sure where the “bargin” is in that) and it’s no wonder the charter, homeschool and voucher movements are gaining momentum by the minute.
(I used “leaps and bounds” without specific numbers in mind truth filter; but I will say this charter/homeschool/voucher “perfect storm” isn’t happening because people are happy. It’s happening for some reason and I don’t think it’s all about parents scared to let their kids go to school with “children of color” as many minority parents are embracing this movement as well)
By WFC
July 18, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this
The whole “good school” vs. “bad school” is for the most part a “smoke and mirrors” exercise. To wit:
SACS studies are a public relations farce.
Take the entire student body from a “good” high school and moove them to a “bad” high school. Change nothing else. These students’ achievement MIGHT decline 5%. This would also be true in reverse.
If you are a principal and want a “good” school your strategy is simple: recruit Asian kids. The cultural attitude toward academics is for the most part astoundingly different. Of course, your football teamm probably won’t win a lot.
“Schools” are a largely artificial illusion. What REALLY matters is the interaction between ONE teacher and ONE group of students over the course of a year. This is why it is sad that the process of evaluating individual teachers is so minimal in Georgia.
We need to require that all people in “leadership” positions exhibit true scholarship in at leat one academic subject (math, science, language arts or history.)
By Janine
July 18, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
WFC RE: “Take the entire student body from a “good” high school and move them to a “bad” high school. Change nothing else. These students’ achievement MIGHT decline 5%. This would also be true in reverse.”
My colleagues and I have suggested a variation of this for years and years. Especially when the NCLB deal with firing all the teachers in a “failing”school came about. We wanted to exchange the faculties of the top schools with the faculties of a “bad” school [instead of the student body.] We believe that if this were done it would forever rid us of blaming the teachers for student/school failures. WE even made the suggestion to the BIGGIES in Dekalb. They laughed and said it would never happen….!
By thomas
July 18, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this
WFC,
You made some good observations. The interaction between teacher and student really does matter. Most people, in and out of education, don’t really think about that. Many people in charge of education want to focus on procedure and “gimmicks” as a way of improving education and student achievement. The fact of the matter is that all the programs in the world will not be effective if the students (and parents) are not interested in you, your program, your school, what you’re trying to teach, and heck, even the entire system.
I have discovered that some students are turned off on school entirely. Sometimes it is the result of negative school experiences they have had in the past. This ties into the point on student-teacher interaction- I have learned through observation and research that teachers may have different attitudes, behaviors, and expectations for different groups of students.
After being in the education game for some years, working in a variety of settings, I have learned some things. I have learned that, perhaps, if all teachers focused on the human element of the job instead focusing entirely on the mechanics of teaching, their jobs wouldn’t be so difficult.
By Lee
July 20, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this
Regarding Luvs earlier post: “…a lot of people see that their children have ‘A’s and they don’t question the quality of those grades.”
I agree 100% and that’s exactly what we experienced with our oldest child.
Our oldest made straight A’s all through school, class officer, took every Honors, College Prep, and A/P class offered, and graduated 4th in her class. Seems like every six weeks or so, we were at school watching her receive some type or award or recognition - Honor Society, Renaissance, etc, etc, etc, etc.
An absolute dream student. We thought she was getting a good education and would be well prepared for college.
She then went off to college and met Mr. Reality.
Mr. Reality says “I don’t care what you did in your little one-redlight town’s school. You’re at the University now. Here, your work is being compared to those students coming out of the elite private schools and those larger school systems who have an honest-to-God A/P program. Here, you are just another number in a class of 300 and the professor isn’t going to curve your grade just because he knows your Mom and Dad and thinks you are a good student. Good luck.”
For a student who had previously made all A’s, that first C was a real eye opener.
It took her about a semester and a half to get back on track. But, she finished strong, making Dean’s List numerous times before she graduated.
Later, she told me that she “didn’t know how to study” when she first went to college.
Think about that one for a minute. A student takes your most rigorous curriculum and doesn’t have to study? What’s wrong with that picture?
That was just one of the reasons we put our youngest in private school. She also experienced a bit of culture shock, going from making all A’s without opening a book (seems like) to making low B’s and struggling to make a few low A’s. It took her about a year of hard work to get back on track.
That is the state of a lot of public schools. The curriculum is so watered down and the emphasis is geared toward making sure the low kids can pass the stupid CRCT, that the average to above average student is being shorted.
….and I don’t see anything changing anytime soon.