Get Schooled

By Jeff

July 6, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

SOMETHING IS SCREWY ABOUT THESE RESULTS

Reason: Y’all saw the CRCT results that I put up for Randolph County 6th grade.

This school MET AYP, and the other two grades did AS BAD or WORSE on CRCT than 6th grade!!!

By Janine

July 6, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

What “piques” my interest in this whole thing? As you all know, with NCLB each state is responsible for… [allowed to ].. design their own tests, standards, etc as well as devise methods/techniques for grading , pass/fail cut offs, etc. Each state is free to make the tests as difficult or as easy as they choose. So, let’s say all of Alabama’s schools are making AYP ( I think I read that most actually are and always have]. Is it because the Alabama tests are easier, the scoring is “user friendlier”, or is it that their schools are actually outstanding?” Has anyone ever compared the tests of one state compared to those of another? ARe they easier or more difficult? Is more covered, are questions more difficult, is scoring questionable? just what is happening here. How does anyone know if NCLB is helping/hindering/neutral? Can one tell from NCLB test results/AYP education in one state better than that in another?

By Ernest

July 6, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Janine, your questions point to reasons a ‘standardized’ national test is needed. Again, you get into the arguments that education is a local issue but how do you know how well you are doing unless you compare across districts and states across the nation. If the right data is collected, this could be an eye opener.

By Cobb Parent

July 6, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Has Cooper Middle School EVER passed? Our son is to be going there in the fall…but, with scores like they keep posting…I think not.

How much you want to bet that the schools of choice will be in east Cobb somewhere? I realize that may be the area of the county where schools are meeting and exceeding expectations, but to drive from the extreme SW corner of the county to east Cobb daily is crazy.

Personally, I do NOT like the NCLB. It only caters to the average student. If your child(ren) happen to be gifted, they sit around in class waiting for the others to catch up. If your child(ren) is disadvantaged, they struggle to keep up. I believe at all levels, the schools should keep the kids in classes with other kids with similar learning abilities and strengths. To have a classroom full of kids at all different levels of learning is ridiculous.

By Raise the bar!

July 6, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

You are right Janine - but what disturbs me even more is that many educators whine about “Bush’s NCLB initiative” and they dont even know what’s in it - most have never read it. The educators need to realize that NCLB is holding ourselves accountable to OUR STATE STANDARDS. What is wrong with that???

By JustMe

July 6, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Jeff, Meeting AYP is a complex formula. Part of it has to do with how a single school improves over the previous year. You cannot compare scores for a year between schools and assume APY results.

The question I have is for a school system that overall does not make AYP. I know that if a single school doesn’t make AYP for a certain number of consecutive years, the school employees (teachers and administration) are fired. What happens when a school system doesn’t make APY for a certain number of years? Are all of the highly paid school system employee’s fired?

If anyone knows the answer to this, please share!

By Jsmom

July 6, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Cobb Parent, We’re in Cooper MS district but have several years before we get to that level. The ES schools that we are allowed to transfer to are just barely better score-wise than Norton Park. No wonder Whitfield has a waiting list as long as my arm..

By Wondering

July 6, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Jeff, Where did you get the first numbers you posted? I went to the DOE website and the scores posted there didn’t match with those you posted earlier.

Just wondering

By Erin

July 6, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

The problem wtih NCLB and AYP as I see it, is that the methods of breaking down each school and class into all these subgroups means that an ENTIRE SCHOOL can fail because one or two kids were having a bad test day or just simply do not know the information.

I think that is RIDICULOUS … I mean, how they can they really believe a severely learning-disabled child could or should be expected to test the same as the brightest kids?

The whole thing, to me anyway, is stacked against the entire system and as time goes on each year the standards to meet AYP are tougher to the point eventually EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL WILL BE FAILING.

I personally don’t see how NCLB and AYP can really truly do what it’s supposed to do.

By Floyd

July 6, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Narvie J. Harris is a “Well kept Secret” I am very happy.

By Jeff

July 6, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Wondering:

I sorted the excel spreadsheet lowest to highest according to “Did NOT Meet” in the various subjects.

The Raw scores for Randolph 6th grade are: (FAIL):

Reading: 22.6%

ELA: 19.4%

Math: 62.9% (I was told we had to hit 67% in order to make AYP. That is the number they had on ALL the boards in training.)

Science: 88.5%

Social Studies: 59%

Note that the ELA/ Reading teacher enjoyed the FULL support of Admin (she had graduated from Randolph High just a few years earlier), while neither myself nor the Science/ Social Studies teacher had ANY support. (Though I was the only one the Superintendent explicity wanted gone.)

By Hollis

July 6, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Jonesboro High used to be one of the top schools in the Atlanta area. But they have failed AYP two years in a row. Why? All the excellent teachers have left for greener pastures and there is no discipline. Where is our Excellence without Excuses?

By Holly

July 6, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Jeff - 66.7% is the percentage schools need to pass in Reading/Language Arts, but the math percentage is lower… I think it’s 58% (or something close to that). In addition there is a confidence interval of about three percentage points, so a school can miss the absolute bar by a few points and still make it.

By Ernest

July 6, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Floyd, sorry to burst your bubble but many are realizing that Elementary Theme schools allow you to have a ‘select’ environment with high levels of parental involvement. While there may be varying levels of abilities, the ‘mandatory’ volunteering policies’ for parents helps with that. Schools that have involved parents along with high academic expectations is great. Couple that with teachers that want to be there along with a supportive administration makes that a dream situation.

By MrLiberty

July 6, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Congratulations, your kids can pass the test but they have no interest in learning, don’t know how to learn, have no critical thinking skills, have no real or useful knowledge upon which to base their future studies on, etc.

But hey, they can pass the test.

By Jeff

July 6, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Holly:

ONLY 37.1% of the kids in 6th grade at Randolph PASSED Math. I think that is sufficiently lower than the 58% requirement to be outside of the confidence interval.

By wierd thing

July 6, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

I find it weird that Forsyth County has only one school fail AYP and the county fails AYP. Looking at the scores its because of subgroups. Does the government not realize that sub groups that have a high percentage of people who for English is not his/her primary language will not do well on a test written in English. When will politicians learn that it is hard to see how well a school does when they do not require all students to be fluent in English before giving them a test in English.

By Floyd

July 6, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Ernest, I don’t believe you “burst” my bubble. I think you may have let my secret out. Parent involvement and high expectations from parents and teachers is what most schools want.

So, I guess this is a dream situation.

By Tony

July 6, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Holly and Jeff: in addition to the confidence interval, there are two additional “second” look features that might allow a school to make AYP. Multi-year averaging and Safe Harbor. For the SWD subgroup there is a fourth “second” look that allows for a 16 point statistical adjustment in cases of low passing rates for SWD only.

The observation posted by wierdthing regarding the subgroups and the effects on a school’s or system’s AYP is very astute. This is the key to the success of the NCLB law - ultimately no school will be able to meet the requirements to maintain AYP. It will be impossible for students with disabilities to pass the curriculum based tests at the same rates as non-SWD students. I think that’s why we have special help for students with disabilities in the first place. Then the language barrier will be impossible for ELL students to maintain high passing rates, too.

Compound all this with the goal of 100% graduation rates. This is the most insane of all the goals. Currently, students with disabilities who can not take the graduation test and pass it are not allowed to graduate. Thus, we will not meet the 100% graduation requirement as it is currently measured.

Who came up with all this nonsense? For those of you who tout the business model and how schools should apply that model more effectively I have to ask one thing. What do you do with raw materials that are deficient or defective? Do you use those materials and try to make the best product anyway?

As applied to the education of human beings, standards like that are not acceptable. Each child must be taken to the best of their potential. For us to do that takes the support of parents and community. Blaming educators for the sad state of the human condition in America needs to end. Let’s begin to address some of the real problems - poverty, healthcare, and moral decay.

By thomas

July 6, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

I think Cooper MS is only in stage 3 of not making AYP. Floyd, Lindley, Griffin, and maybe one or two others are in stage 4- reconstitution phase. Lindley has just undergone restructuring. The Cobb school board just announced that Lindley would be broken into two “schools”- a sixth grade academy and a 7-8th grade academy. Each “school” would have its own overseers, I mean administration. I guess that’s the solution to “failing” schools after all— more “supervision” and “direction” of teachers and staff. In those horrid schools students and parents are the ones needing “supervision” and “direction”, not teachers.

By thomas

July 6, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

Having worked in elementary and middle school, I understand the dynamics of both environments. AYP status can tell you a lot about the quality of a school. If you see an elementary school that is not making AYP, SOMETHING IS TERRIBLE WRONG THERE!!!!!!!!!!! Even godawful, infernal schools in Atlanta City make AYP. All they do is teach reading and math all day long, with no breaks, but they still make AYP.

They may have teachers reading from scripts, a la Success for All, SRA, etc, but something must be working. BEVERLY HALL IS A GENIUS!!!!! Let that lady work her magic and she’ll turn even the middle schools around.

I hear, pray tell, that four elementaries in Cobb failed AYP, and one school two years in a row!!! Compton Elementary in Powder Springs has to offer school choice. Shame! Shame! Shame! The other three can hide behind the “ELL excuse”, but what’s Compton’s excuse? That school is majority black, by the way.

Having worked in a variety of school environments, I can tell you that a majority Latino is the most challenging (yet it can be very rewarding). If you have students who are not proficient in English, you have to teach differently than a “regular” school. I had to learn some Spanish to even get much done when I was at “la escuela de muchos mexicanos”.

What’s black students and parents excuse? They won’t work with the teacher. They make excuses and blame the system for everything, yet won’t bring a pencil or paper to school. I have heard many horror stories on this blog concerning teaching in the ‘hood. There is no excuse for the behavior and attitude of these kids. NO AMERICAN STUDENT OR PARENT (BLACK OR WHITE) SHOULD BE A DISRESPECTFUL, ARROGANT, UNGRATEFUL RETCH!!!

People from all over the world come to this country with a good attitude, respectful, and try to do right. This is why I teach ESOL!!!! This is why!!!! This is why!!! I would rather teach a humble immigrant basic vocabulary and reading than work with the American “gifted”.

One of my favorite quotes is “Attitude is as important as ability.” So true. You can buy that poster from SchoolBox, by the way.

By Ernest

July 6, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

After reviewing the data for my county, I can say we’ve got work to do at many of the middle and high schools. I’m proud to say the schools my children attend all made AYP. That pride may come with a cost of becoming a receiving school. Don’t you just love NCLB???

By decaturparent

July 6, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Decatur rocks.

By decaturparent

July 6, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

Decatur rocks. By the skin of its teeth in the middle school… but it still made AYP and the some at all schools.

By Alternative Schools

July 6, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this

Take a look at how many of these schools are “alternative schools”. Schools like Give West (Gwinnett)& CEP (Atlanta). NCLB exempts these schools from the transfer and other consequences because they are alternative schools for kids who have experienced suspension for longer than 10 days. Why we are exempting the most difficult schools and neediest students from the benefits of this law, especially the supplemental services portion, perplexes me. I think if you look into these schools deeper, you will find they are no more than holding places for kids to drop out.

By Lisa B.

July 9, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

All the schools in my rural system made AYP except the high school. I don’t know what we can do to improve our graduation rate. Also, too few black students passed the tests. If the students pass in elementary and middle school, what happens in high school? If the middle school makes AYP shouldn’t the high school make it as well?

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

My school made it, second year in a row, and now comes off the Needs Improvement list…yeah! Needless to say, I am thrilled.

Cobbparent and Jsmom - if you’re still out there (I know you posted last week) - look at Cooper’s scores carefully - if it’s just one subgroup (usually ESOL or SPED) where the problem lies, and your child doesn’t fall in that category, then it’s not as much of a problem, IMO.

I now teach at the MS my children attended, and it didn’t make AYP for a couple years - including two when my son was there. However its scores overall were very good; it didn’t make it in ESOL and SPED. My school has a HUGE ESOL population - biggest in the county, and my son loved going to school with people from all over the world. Although I was offered school choice, I kept my son there, and he did well. His scores were great, and that was all I was worried about.

So I recommend you look at the whole picture - analyze the test scores in the subgroups - find out why it failed. Ask your neighbors who have kids in the school if they are happy with other aspects of it. Find out about teacher turn-over - too much is definitely a bad sign. Good luck!

By thomas

July 10, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

This is where I see problem’s with this whole AYP status thing. I heard about people “celebrating” that their school was off the Needs Improvement list. Celebrating for what? They had nothing to be ashamed of. More than likely, their school was/is a “good” school. They were labeled because of the performance of a small subgroup.

This whole AYP status thing is more important to adults in school administration- like county coordinators and principals, than students. Students should NEVER be involved in worrying about matters like that. I couldn’t understand why those children pictured on the front of the AJC were “jumping for joy” because their school was off the NI list. This garbage has not nothing to do with students and does not affect them.

By Jeff

July 10, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Alternative Schools:

Just saw your post.

I don’t need to re-hash my accomplishments, most here know them. Considering where I came from and what I came through, they are decently impressive.

And one of the things I came through was an Alternative School.

In fact, it was BECAUSE of my experiences at that alternative school that I was able to achieve many of the things I eventually did achieve.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

thomas - I am celebrating because my school (which my children attended - even though I had school choice for my son) is now no longer labelled NI (an overall “bad” perception that affects my property values) because of ONE subgroup (in our case SPED, although ESOL also wasn’t passing three years ago).

I’m pleased for the SPED staff - they worked very hard. I’m pleased for the ELL/ESOL teachers - they worked very hard. I’m pleased for the admin - mostly new this year - because they were supportive. I’m pleased for the general ed staff.

Most of all, though, I’m pleased for me. I feel vindicated - and now I don’t have defend my choice of school for my kids or working environment for me.

By Lisa B.

July 10, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

Luvs,

My school just came off the NI list as well. That means the State people are GONE. Yippee! My school should have never been on the list. After years of good test scores, the DOE retroactively evaluated the schools, and mine landed in an NI5 slot! We were heartbroken, but busted our tails to comply to the new rules and get off the list. Like you, I feel vindicated.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Lisa B. - yippee for both of us and our schools!!!

I forgot about the state people and the extra training…

By Cobb Parent

July 11, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

I was right. Cooper failed…third year in a row. Choice Schools are Awtry Middle in Kennesaw and Mabry Middle in Marietta. The county could not have found two schools farther from our home. Mabry is on the complete OPPOSITE side of the county from where we live. That is ridiculous!!! Have I mentioned that I do not particularly care for this whole NCLB crap?

By luvs2teach

July 11, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Cobb Parent - I don’t know if this helps or not…

I couldn’t find the broken down data for this year, but according to the DOE’s site, Cooper failed to make AYP last year due to the students with disabilities - it made it in every other category. I’m fairly certain that it would be the same this year. That’s the one category that kept my middle school for passing for 3 years.

The school also has to offer supplemental services, so if you don’t take up school choice, you may want to pursue that. You might be able to transfer into another Cobb school closer than Mabry under regular transfer rules.

Good luck with your decision - I chose to keep my son in our neighborhood school, but I also kept on top of his personal progress.