By SET

July 5, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Maybe they leave because the job is not satisfying anymore for an intelligent person?

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 5, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Discipline. When they’re ready to address discipline (not with “teacher training” but with supporting the consequences that the teacher imposes) then and only then will they be serious about teacher retention.

Otherwise, they are merely “wishing” or “hoping” for teacher turnover to subside.

By mum

July 5, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

I was watching a program locally earlier this week on this very topic. WHen I came across it, they were talking about the vast number of teachers teaching outside their subjects here in Georgia and it was frightening to watch someone who couldn’t spell correctly teaching kids english and having them copy words down that he incorrectly spelled. They hilighted the inadequate way colleges were training student teacher that set them up to fail because they didn’t spend time in classrooms, etc. Boy did this depress me because even the college professors weren’t teaching for the real world. Looks like the deck is stacked against teacher/students at every turn.

By thomas

July 5, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

I am quite familiar with the Cobb program. It is called (was) the High Priority Schools Longevity Incentive Program. A HPS, by the way, is defined by Cobb basically as a Title I school with a large number of low income, minority, or ELL students. It worked like this:

Teachers who worked in a HPS for 3 consecutive years and up received bonuses on certain years of service:

Year 3- $2,500 Year 6- $3,500 Years 9, 15, 22, 28- $5,000

The program is a GREAT reward for teachers who work in a HPS. As for incentives, I really don’t know if it served to be an incentive to apply to, work at, and stay at a HPS. The reality is that most teachers have REASONS why they choose to work at certain schools in certain neighborhoods. Few teachers work anywhere for extended periods of time simply because they need a job. Many teachers, especially newer ones, are VERY TRANSIENT and leave teaching jobs at the drop of a hat. Only when teachers get older do they become more stationery and settled. I guess they find their niche and get comfortable in a certain place. This is true for all teachers.

As for the situation in Cobb— here’s the deal:

Not all Cobb schools have an issue with teacher transiency. First off, even in the “non HPS” schools the transiency rate is 8.5%. However the rate is low for schools in East and West Cobb. That is because those schools are predominately middle to upper middle class and white. THE REALITY IS THAT MOST TEACHERS WANT TO WORK IN PLACES LIKE THAT. This is because the students and parents are most similiar to the teacher culturally and socioeconomically. In addition many of these students have been * groomed, trained, conditioned, and prepared for success in school.* Most of these parents work with their children at home, so it really is easier to teach these kids. I know- I used to teach them. In fact I enjoyed it, quite frankly.

The HPS schools are in the south part of the county. These are the Title I, large working class, lower income, minority schools. Some of these schools are just horrid. PARTICULARLY THE MIDDLE SCHOOLS. Part of the problem is the local school administrators, and some of the teachers there (experienced and less experienced). But it’s most those HARD CORE THUGS IN THE MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOLS AND THEIR NON SUPPORTIVE PARENTS.

I am an elementary ESOL teacher. I used to work at a 70% Latino elementary school in south Cobb. It was fine for me as an ESOL teacher. The students, for the most part, were respectful and put forth some effort. Even in this area, with semi-respectful kids, there was a bit of teacher transiency. People “paid their dues” at places like this and moved on. At least there, you weren’t called a ‘ho (by a student or parent). You just had to be able to speak Spanish (or at least smart enough to get a student to translate for you). The reality is that new teachers and teachers from out of state, came in, “got their feet wet” and moved on. The old dogs that remained were ones who had been at the school before the demographic changes of the late 90’s, and even now can stay at these schools and coast (meaning that don’t have to work hard due to low student expectations and minimal teaching requirements).

The HPS incentive really didn’t work out as planned. For one reason the incentives were stretched so far apart that teachers really didn’t see the end of the rainbow. In addition, the school system did not advertise the program effectively. Also, some of those schools, particularly some of the middle and high schools in Austell and Mableton are just hard core ghetto. I wouldn’t work there for an extra $5,000 a year. THIS IS WHY ATLANTA, DEKALB, FULTON, AND CLAYTON PAY MORE FOR TEACHERS- COMBAT PAY. How many people are going to stay in the ‘hood or barrio, when after two years you could possibly transfer to a “better” school. Especially middle or high. God I don’t see how they do it.

By Ernest

July 5, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

This blog was asking for a response from Holding :). They are correct, it is more than having financial incentives, it is about being supported. This applies to anyone in any job.

FWIW, when you consider what teachers may actually get after taxes, it probably amounts to a few extra dollars a day. Maybe part of the solution is to substantially increase the incentive. What would probably have a greater effect if to create another environment for those that don’t want to be in the ‘regular’ school.

By jim d

July 5, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Leave us not forget that teachers, like any other occupation prefer to work a bit closer to home. I’m curious what percentage of those that left these schools transferred into a school closer to home? What percentages of them were being asked to teach classes they were not qualified to teach or comfortable teaching? What percentage were new or relatively new and how do those attrition rates compare to other teachers with the same teaching credentials?

I’m afraid there are way too many questions here without answers to really be able to analyze what little information is being offered.

By Ernest

July 5, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Dang JimD, you are talking about doing some real interesting analysis :). From what I’ve seen, the primary metric captured from exit interviews is reason for leaving however some of the things you mentioned would probably required additional reason codes to report against. You would also have to factor in possibilities that some answers ‘may’ be less than forthright. This would be to potentially make them appealing for a future job. It’s easy to say they are leaving for family reasons or something like that when in reality they may not have been up to snuff. To be fair, this occurs in all professions.

By jim d

July 5, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Then too we must consider a question that most school systems claim does not exist. The issue of “teacher sorting.”

By jim d

July 5, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

Ah yes Ernest—but tax dollars aren’t being spent in all professions. :-)

By thomas

July 5, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Jim d, go back and read my first post on this subject. It should answer some questions.

As for the “trying to be closer to home” idea, that is valid. I like to live close to my job too. Many teachers live in or near the neighborhoods of their schools.

As for the experience level of the teachers, again reaad my earlier post. It is the nature of teaching in America for newly certified teachers to take jobs in lower socioeconomic areas and then move to more affluent areas later on. They do this because many times they cannot get a job in a “good school” due to lack of experience and the availability of positions at those schools. So they start out in second and third tier schools.

What Cobb should have done with this HPS longivity incentive to really make it meaningful was to pay the bonus EVERY YEAR. Now that would have kept people in those schools. This 3, 6, 9, 15, 22, 28 business didn’t work. What rookie teacher is going to stay in an HPS, even an elementary school, when she sees “better” schools up the road in her own system? Particularly since they probably DO NOT LIVE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD to begin with. I remember when I worked at my little barrio school. I didn’t live in “little Mexico.” I drove 15 minutes to work, did my job, and drove back to my neighborhood.

By Lee

July 5, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

Ernest is correct, after taxes, this works out to about $1.50 to $3.00 per day - depending on which milestone you are at.

I can hear the teachers now, “Gee, I’ll just skip that Coke and pack of crackers and work at a good school.”

Bottom line, these schools aren’t the most pleasant places to work. Most of the time, they fill teaching positions with new teachers just out of college. As soon as possible, these teachers move to other schools closer to home, better environment, etc, etc.

I don’t think the taxpayers are ready to pay the type of bonuses that would provide incentive for someone to move to one of these schools.

By linda

July 5, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

The closer to home idea just doesn’t hold water when you look at how far people drive to work in North Fulton schools (45 mins - 1 hour is not uncommon). I would readjust that theory to state that people will not drive a long way to work in a difficult school but will drive a long way to work in a good school - just like any other business really.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 5, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

“You would also have to factor in possibilities that some answers ‘may’ be less than forthright.”

Yep. An evolution “may” be a valid theory. And Chris Benoit “may” have done steroids. And OJ “may” have done it.

The exit interview is yet another place they don’t want the truth about discipline.

As Jim D pointed out, there may be many reasons for the turnover; but it’s funny how we will deal with every one of them but discipline, and then sit back and act “concerned” about teacher turnover. And “act” is the operative word, because that’s what it is…an act.

By SET

July 5, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Maybe the problem is that the black schools are staffed with pushover liberals - often white and sometimes black - that aren’t tough enough to deal with the black underclass.

In the days of segregated schools the black schools were staffed by the black educated class (decendants of the house slaves?) who were as ruthless as required to keep the black students in line and at work.

I just went to a funeral for a relative in her 90’s who was a riveter in the WWII airplane factories (after getting her 4 year degree from a HBC) before going on to a 25 year career as an elementry school teacher. She was charming and could be brutal - just like every other member of her generation I grew up with who were in education )teaching in largely black schools).

In her last illness one of the senior nurses at the hospital turned out to have been a 3rd grade student of hers - they hadn’t seen each other since then.

These women and men did not produce many welfare mothers and prison inmates. They made sure the children learned how to speak standard english and read and write. And they did all kinds of things to make them learn.

We need to do now what we did in the mid 20th century. The black underclass now has problems, but so did the Post WWII blacks who were relocating North and West, often with fathers off to war or wherever, and the mothers working. We can find people willing to go into the ghetto schools and break these kids - if we want to (Problem #1) and back the teachers up totally (Problem #2) and stop being concerned about the “feelings” of the bio Moms (problem #3) when we teach the kid to not be like Bio Mom and Dad - to be better than them.

Starting with deportment, language and dress.

I think Oprah has an experimental school in Africa that is doing this on the sly and having trouble with some of the families. Maybe she should try it in Chicago and do it openly - limit exposure to “familiy and friends” (ghetto) and immerse the kids in professional culture. It would be something to see.

And it’s real telling that Oprah is using these tactics while Bill and Melinda Gates and their silly educational foundation are still learning to walk.

Save us from liberal whites.

By linda

July 5, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

It appears that everyone is in full agreement that discipline is the major issue. There are minor ones to be sure, but discipline is the biggie. It seems obvious to me that military-style schools could truly benefit undisciplined students and improve the retention of staff. Of course I’m all for students with self-discipline being allowed to attend a “normal” school (which might eventually phase out the need for so many military academies). I can’t understand why it is taking so long to get a system in place to deal with the discipline issues - the problem is taking over too many schools and will only get worse until it is systematically addressed. This is clearly not a “classroom management” problem!

By linda

July 5, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

SET hits the nail on the head. The formula is clear: lack of discipline = prison and welfare and discipline = self-sufficient and free citizens. We KNOW this. Why would we do anything differently? Why would we want prisoners and a welfare state?

By linda

July 5, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I am afraid that once the experiments of the liberal whites have failed they will not stick around and clean up the mess. We are already near the boiling point where people are so sick of these undisciplined welfare types that they will simply be abandoned while some (bright flight, not white flight as this goes for people of all colors) form exclusive communities (like Aspen for example) where lower class have NO chance of living. I feel we are truly on the verge of this segregation by lifestyle choice and I can’t imagine all the consequences.

By Blind Homer

July 5, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Military combat pay comes to more than $5K a year and most of it is much safer than Floyd Middle School.

By Ernest

July 5, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

SET, your latest posting gives one a lot to think about, especially in light of the recent Supreme Court decision regarding Seattle and Louisville schools. Did the country go to far based on the Brown decision? One could say it possibly led to the breakup of many communities and ultimately the disintegration of the black family (due to the Great Society programs of the 60’s). Yes, it is a stretch and everyone can point to many that have succeed during that time. There is also a growing underclass that is affecting the quality of life for many.

How does this tie back to the topic? When I was a young student back in the 60’s, I knew to keep in line because I’d get paddled in school. When that happened (of course it did a few times), I could be sure there would be a repeat performance at home that evening. Am I any worse because that type of discipline was used? Some might say yes but I think that went a long way towards shaping me into the person I am today. Teachers knew they had the support of their administration and most of all, the community and parents.

I’m definitely in agreement with Holding on this, address the discipline problem and most of the other problems will be reduced. Create environments where teachers will want to go and feel supported. So what if the students are not as strong academically as others in the district. I bet if most teachers felt they could make a reasonable difference and had the strong backing of their administration when problems arose, the other challenges may not seem as large.

By Jeff

July 5, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

linda:

“bright flight” has been happening for YEARS.

Its products? Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi. In other words, cluelessness.

By Political Mongrel

July 5, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

I didn’t change schools to get nearer my home. I moved nearer to the schools.

It’s difficult to do this in some areas, though. Let’s face it: there are places in Georgia where average house payments are pretty close to a teacher’s monthly take-home.

By DUH

July 5, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

It is NOT Fiscal security…It IS physical security! who wants to enter a neighborhood during dark and leave after dark everyday when the possibility of an attack on you is very real. The thugs and gang members are controlling the streets and intersections in these areas. 1 police officer is not nearly enough to ensure safety and then if you touch a student you can be assured of repercussions from parents, school officials, the street..etc If the police departments did their jobs to ‘encourage’ residents to act civil and make neighborhoods safe then the teachers will come….bonus or not! Most of them really have a desire to make a difference.

By Joe

July 5, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

If teachers are going to be held accountable for their students test scores and constantly improving upon the scores, why would you teach at a low income school where your performance might not have as much impact as the students’ home life and environment? My friend who is a teacher talks about tough love and supporting the problem children, but she teaches in a rich suburb where the average home price is $700,000. She thinks ESL is wrong for segregating students, but never had to deal with an ESL student. Instead here biggest worries are pushy involved parents are concerned about making sure their kid can get into a top college. Not if they will graduate, which is a given for the most part. I would take her problems over any problems in a low income neighborhood where parents don’t care, your principal won’t stick up for you, and students are running wild.

By GA_Native

July 5, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I would think that an eductors and executives that sit on the school board, they would know and apply Frederick Herzbergs’ thoery on hygeine and motivational factors. Money and financial incentives are classified as hygeine factors. Hygeine factors do not provide satisfaction and only their absence creates dissatisfaction. If the board is interested in reducing turn over they need to investigate the the motivational factors. Put those components in place and you will see progress, reduced turn over, even in the difficult districts.

And Linda, disciplined children are created at home, not in the classroom. If a child is not raised in a healthy environment what do you expect? Although possible it is highly unlikely you can expect well educated people to want to work in classrooms full of undisciplined, unruly, thugs. The parents of these “students” need get control of them and quit expecting the state to do their job for them. There is an old saying; “The more a child cries when he is young, the less you will cry when he is old” and “the begining of respect is discipline”.

By holdingAJCaccountable

July 5, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

As the posts indicate, we all agree discipline is the issue; yet has the AJC editorial board even once written an editorial expressing that teachers must have more support from administrators when it comes to discipline?

I’ve only seen Wooten, on his blog address discipline, but on the editorial pages? Never.

Perhaps they’d like to come down from the ivory tower to the “Get Schooled” blog and get a taste of reality.

By Taca

July 5, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

I am a Special Education Teacher from Michigan. If this state could shadow the steps of the states that are in the top 20 for educating children. You would probably take some progressive steps. In addition make the employees secure via increase in salaries and agressive unions.

By jim d

July 5, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Bottom line?

appears to be Working conditions. Shame the old timers put up with it!

By Greg

July 5, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

Our public schools have degenerated to the point where the only real solution available is to privatize education. The reason we continue to experience failure in education is because we continue to subsidize the failures. If a private sector corporation does not succeed at delivering better quality at a cheaper price, it goes out of business. Its time for the public education system to face the same market pressures.

By BCR

July 5, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

All teachers need to be paid more, form upper class to lower class. It is a shame to see other occupations making a significant amout more than teachers. I see where the values of the USA are.

By linda

July 5, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

GA_Native: I agree that disciplined children are created at home, but do you honestly that is happening in each and every home? Of course not. Their out-of-control behavior is fine for home but not for the community. The community needs to make that clear since this is a free country and we can’t make parents do it. I believe the behavior messages we are sending children now are extremely hazy and clearly they are not getting the message. I don’t want to see our country splintered over such a preventable issue as behavior standards. If you don’t want the community to train these types then what do you propose we do with them? We certainly can’t live with them as fellow citizens.

By md

July 5, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

The “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree syndrome” is a BIG contributing factor in the problem. The students are a product of their environment at home. If the parents/parent don’t give a flip about education, the child usually won’t either. Race doesn’t matter, as stupidity/laziness knows no color. The problem won’t go away until these parents are educated as well and become involved in their childs educations. Too many parents send their kids to school to get “educated”, yet do nothing at home to enhance that education.

Example: At a PTSO meeting last year, when discussing the discipline program, an enlightened parent asked if the school had to notify her if her child got in trouble. She stated that he gets in enough trouble at home, and she didn’t want to know if he was getting in trouble at school too because she “couldn’t deal with it”.

Unfortunately, some people are destined to be stuck in the lower class because of their surroundings and lack of choices. As long as the parents depend on the “government” to make their lives better, it will never happen. Individuals and families need to make the “choice” to improve their situations and work hard to get there.

By NorthFultonTeacher

July 5, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

I am one of those teachers that bailed from a low performing school many years ago. I left because my son was starting school and I wanted him to come with me. No way though, was he going to THAT school. I took a job in my neighborhood school. I fully intended on going back to the at risk school, right up until NCLB.

I am not going to put myself in the situation those teachers are in with sanctions based on test scores. I am not going to have my teaching driven by a test.

I have 23 years experience, including years teaching in migrant schools and East St. Louis. I am exactly the type teacher needed but $5,000 is not worth it.

By thomas

July 5, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

Military combat pay comes to more than $5K a year and most of it is much safer than Floyd Middle School.

Blind Homer, YOU’VE GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!! Don’t forget about Lindsey Middle!!!!!!!! It is WORST!!!

Cobb’s Worst Middle Schools: 1) Lindley (Recently “reconstituted” by the Cobb school board) 2) Floyd (perenial teacher revolving door- some don’t even last the school year) 3) Garrett 4) Cooper

All in South Cobb.

Cobb’s Best Middle Schools 1) Dickerson (consistently on of the best in the state) 2) Dodgen (another top flight school) 3) Hightower Trail

By Twan Jackson

July 5, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

I really don’t blame them for leaving. Just look at the teacher turnover at McNair Middle in Dekalb County. The recent CRCT results for the 6th grade has over 88% FAILING the science portion. How can this be? If you can walk and chew gum you should be able to pass this test. 88%. This is after the students have been in school for a year.

By Allison

July 5, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

I have been a high school teacher for twenty five years. I have always loved teaching but I am thankful I am near the end of my career. In the last five years I have seen a total breakdown in discipline. NCLB has robbed us of our backbone in dealing with students whose only purpose is to disrupt. Only in public school is thuggish behavior tolerated. No wonder our kids fail in the real world where there are consequences for unacceptable behavior. Real world has no concern about AYP. God help us when we go to the one track diploma. Many of us are nearing retirement. I dont see many in line, anxious to take our plsce.

By Allison

July 5, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

I have been a high school teacher for twenty five years. I have always loved teaching but I am thankful I am near the end of my career. In the last five years I have seen a total breakdown in discipline. NCLB has robbed us of our backbone in dealing with students whose only purpose is to disrupt. Only in public school is thuggish behavior tolerated. No wonder our kids fail in the real world where there are consequences for unacceptable behavior. Real world has no concern about AYP. God help us when we go to the one track diploma. Many of us are nearing retirement. I dont see many in line, anxious to take our plsce.

By catlady

July 5, 2007 5:50 PM | Link to this

Yes, it is discipline, rather than money, that should be addressed. Also, more generally from that category, respect for teachers—where the rubber meets the road!. This kind of respect is shown in soliciting teacher input AND LISTENING TO/FOLLOWING IT on such things as scheduling, curriculum, and “cure du jour” nonsense. It is shown in setting realistic expectations of teachers (no more hidden duties and expectations, for example), not showing favoritism (coach’s wife, anyone?), and BACKING UP THE TEACHER 100%.

I have been very fortunate, that the few times in 34 years I am aware of that there was a question about something I did, the principal backed me up, and then, privately, asked me for clarification.

Our superintendent thinks that a 2% raise will quell the discontent, but that is incorrect. LISTEN TO US! TREAT US LIKE PROFESSIONALS! BE SURE THE SUPERVISORS HAVE REAL EXPERIENCE IN THE AREA! QUIT PILING ON ADDITIONAL DUTIES! AND LET US TEACH THE CHILDREN WHO WANT TO LEARN. PROVIDE A PLACE FOR THE TROUBLEMAKERS SO THEY CAN DO THEIR THING WITHOUT SCREWING IT UP FOR THE 30 OTHER KIDS IN THE ROOM.

Most teachers don’t do it for the money. They don’t do it for the power trip. They do it because they like to teach children important things—to make a difference today, tomorrow, and down the road. (Okay, cue the music…)

By C.R.H.

July 5, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

I taught at one of Cobb’s “high priority high schools. I took my 3 year retention bonus and bolted for greener pastures. Of course that didn’t last long either…more money to be made in the private/business sector with a lot less BS to deal with. Many of you cite discipline as a factor, and it is a factor. For me the biggest factor was the feeling of going into work and being the only person in the room that gave a damn, the students sure didn’t care! With all this testing garbage being used to “grade the teacher”, why would I want their poor performance to reflect on how I did my job and my abilities? Afterall… we all did the same thing to make everything more “standardized”. I watched my students scores sink for 2 years because I no longer was allowed to remediate, speed up or slow things down as I saw the need. Had to follow the pacing guide to make sure I “covered” all the GPS needed for the EOCT.

By Ernest

July 5, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this

Holding, if you haven’t already done so, perhaps you should write a ‘Letter to the Editor’ and/or submit a guest editorial. If the AJC does not run it, submit it to neighborhood papers in the metro area along with national publications. I bet someone like a Bill O’Reilly would love to have that as a discussion topic on his show, especially since he was a former teacher. Send it to the GA congressional delegation along with state elected officials. Who knows, maybe this could be some type of metric for NCLB. Neal Boortz has his Fair Tax, this could be your bully pulpit. Be the spark that starts a national dialogue on discipline in our schools.

By teacher

July 6, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

PARENTS!!!! The discipline must start at home and continue at school. Some students do not allow others to learn and this frustrates teachers.

By thomas

July 6, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

CRH, this is why I can’t teach in the ‘hood. I had experiences of being about the only on in the room who cared- and this was in fourth grade!!

I have taught in several difference environments in my career. Whew- WAIT!!! I had actually forgotten about the year I taught eighth grade science in a black middle school. It was years ago. It was the one of the WORST educational experience of my career. I almost quit teaching before I even started. This same middle school years later had a race riot between black and Latino youth. No joke- about 2 or 3 years ago. 25 kids were involved.

Many of the posters on this blog mentioned that “high priority schools” often becoming dumping grounds for inferior teachers. This is partially true. It’s not that the school systems dump low quality teachers there. It’s that third and fourth rate teachers and only find work (and remained employed) at such places. More than one principal of minority schools have told me about the kinds of people who apply for jobs at their schools. One principal told me that a lady with years of experience applied for a teaching job at her school. The principal thought to herself “why would a lady with all of this experience want to work here?” Come to find out the applicant, a 20 year plus veteran, had been caught falsifying student test data to make herself look good. Another principal told me that her school got “their share of applicants”, but that many of them were unqualified.

Nobody in their right minds, if they are talented, wants to waste their time in a classroom with people who could care less about you, their fellow classmates, what you are trying to teach, and school itself. You take these jobs if you have to or you are one of those people who just wants a check and realize this is the place you can do nothing to get it.

By Zach

July 6, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

This is a TRUTHFUL blog we are having here,and sometimes the truth hurts. I agree 100% with SET.However, I used to think I was a Liberal. We need a Joe Clark in Atlanta! I am so tired of the youg people knowing all of Youg Jeezy’s Rap Lyrics and can’t do simple multiplication. Blacks need to turn to our own brand of conservatism and stand up like Bill Cosby has been screaming for the past few years!

By thomas

July 6, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

CRH, this is why I can’t teach in the ‘hood. I had experiences of being about the only on in the room who cared- and this was in fourth grade!!

I have taught in several difference environments in my career. Whew- WAIT!!! I had actually forgotten about the year I taught eighth grade science in a black middle school. It was years ago. It was the one of the WORST educational experience of my career. I almost quit teaching before I even started. This same middle school years later had a race riot between black and Latino youth. No joke- about 2 or 3 years ago. 25 kids were involved.

Many of the posters on this blog mentioned that “high priority schools” often becoming dumping grounds for inferior teachers. This is partially true. It’s not that the school systems dump low quality teachers there. It’s that third and fourth rate teachers and only find work (and remained employed) at such places. More than one principal of minority schools have told me about the kinds of people who apply for jobs at their schools. One principal told me that a lady with years of experience applied for a teaching job at her school. The principal thought to herself “why would a lady with all of this experience want to work here?” Come to find out the applicant, a 20 year plus veteran, had been caught falsifying student test data to make herself look good. Another principal told me that her school got “their share of applicants”, but that many of them were unqualified.

Nobody in their right minds, if they are talented, wants to waste their time in a classroom with people who could care less about you, their fellow classmates, what you are trying to teach, and school itself. You take these jobs if you have to or you are one of those people who just wants a check and realize this is the place you can do nothing to get it.

By Darrell (of blackthen.com)

July 6, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

@ Zach

Good post and I concur with your sentiments.

The only thing is, Joe Clark had one thing our teachers today do not: AUTHORITY. The hands of today’s teachers aren’t merely tied, they’re handcuffed! I’m not surprised at all that monetary incentives have proven futile in reducing teacher turnover, when to a large extent the teacher doesn’t even know if they’ll make it out of the classroom alive.

No amount of money can buy peace of mind, and it appears that many teachers are opting for the latter over the former. And, frankly, I don’t blame them.

Darrell (of blackthen.com)

By thomas

July 6, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

One of the things mentioned in Cobb about the HPS incentive was perhaps bringing back some form of incentive, but making it performance based.

You see, one of the angriest times I had was realizing how worthless and uncaring some teachers are. Remember that barrio school I was telling you about? These kids weren’t ghetto. They didn’t have a nasty attitude. The hood argument/reason/rationale for not putting forth effort as a teacher didn’t apply here. We had teachers in kindergarten and first grade (THE EASIEST GRADES IN ALLLLLL OF SCHOOL TO TEACH) who didn’t give a d__n about teaching kids to read, write, etc. Poor children who never learned how to read, write, spell, do basic math. Teachers who didn’t know to teach and didn’t care either. Children whose self esteem was shot. Lives ruined because of some selfish witches.

This a place where selfish, arrogant, conceited witches (I am being so polite here) did WHAT EVER THEY WANTED, to the deteriment of the children. Children they had a DUTY to teach. The administration (both at the local school and at the county level) let it happen.

Lest not we forget who works at high minority schools, write it down now:

1) Black, Latino, or other minority teachers who want to teach, work with, motivate, etc. “their own kind”. Totally acceptable and SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED.

2) New white teachers who just want a job and are there just long enough to get what they want and get the h_l on. (I am against it because of the damage they do to the students they “serve”).

3) Old white teachers who have found that the requirements are very low at a minority school and just want to rest on their lazy behinds. (Ought to be put out to the pasture)

4) Missionary whites who want to “make a difference.” You know what I’m talking—ones like Erin Gruwell from the movie Freedom Writers.

5) Crackpots, idiots, total incompetents, or other assorted rable who cannot find SUSTAINED, PEACEFUL employment at a “good” school.

You have to understand why I say this- it made me personally angry to see what I witnessed working as a teacher over the last few years. I AM ANGRY BECAUSE THE PEOPLE DIDN’T CARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN— ONLY THEIR D_N SELVES. SELFISH PEOPLE— VERY SELFISH. At a mostly Latino school, parents are talked to any old kind of way. Children are denigrated and their family and culture insulted. Younger teachers work there just long enough to get their feet wet or get their masters degree. Old dogs laying back, doing nothing, then blame the children for their condition.

Contrast this with the teachers at a middle class school. I worked at a place with teachers so dedicated and honorable THEY WORKED ON SATURDAYS!!!!!! I SWEAR TO ALMIGHTY GOD, THEY WOULD OPEN UP THE BUILDING ON SATURDAYS SO TEACHERS COULD COME IN AND WORK. THEY WOULD HAVE TO THROW THEM OUT AT 1:30 OR 2:00 SO THE PRINCIPAL/AP/ALT COULD GO HOME. One incredible woman even painted one of the walls of her own room to beautify her classroom for her students.

Compare this with the “barrio” school where teachers wouldn’t even keep a clean room. This school had roaches and RATS!!!! I had to keep traps in my room to fight off the mice. Teachers came to school whenever they wanted to. At whatever time. Many of these teachers didn’t even write lesson plans!!!!! Teachers would SCREAM at the children and make horrible insults and putdowns on a daily basis.

I was a true believer (still am). I wanted to be teacher to HELP children (whether they are black, white, Latino, or Asian). Sadly not everybody feels this way.

By Concerned Teacher

July 6, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

I taught in ‘hood for one year and it was the most he**ish year of my teaching career. Parents don’t care about their child’s behavior and blame you if call them and try to tell them about hier child’d misbehavoir. I had ninth graders who could could not multiply or divide. It was awful!!! I left and have never taught in the hood again in ten years since.

By Ernest

July 6, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

I can see your passion with your postings, Thomas. I find myself nodding my head as I read them. In fairness, let’s look at another point of view. Based on ‘choices’ you made during your youth, you live in an area in which many don’t share your values of education with regards to your children. Your housing options are limited due to your income (life choices) and your children attend a school with many staffers that that you described in your 10:22 post. Yes, there are a handful of teachers at the school that are truly dedicated and do a good job helping children to succeed but everyone is trying to get their child in those classes. What options are available for that parent and child that understands having a good education can be the ticket ‘out of the hood’?

The longer that child remains in that environment, the more susceptible they become to the becoming like that environment. Some are stronger than others and can resist that temptation but unless they have strong role models, the temptation can sometimes be too great.

By SET

July 6, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Here’s a thought for the morning.

Newspapers like AJC are just as responsible for the failure of the public schools as anyone, and more than most. The owners of many newspapers used to be local families who cared about the long tern viability of their cities. Then the controlling family members died off. The children and then granchildren diluted the organization and eventually sold off to the stateless corporations who now control large systems in the USA.

The new elite are bright people and they know the chess moves. They have no interest in the long term viability of anyplace because as the Pat benatar song goes… “the company up and moved to Taiwan” (“Suburban King”)

If not literally, then in spirit.

AJC is collecting a vast amount of data just from this educational blog. By now they have reason to know that the schools are out of control discipline wise, and the group agreement that this is the problem behind all other problems. Duh..

Do you really think the AJC - or for that matter any other media - are going to tee off on getting this fixed? They have the power (for the moment) to mold public opinion and to galvanize the politicians into action. They do nothing. Although running this blog is a nice start.

The problem with public (proletarian) schools isn’t integration, money, qualified teachers, clean building, or anything else. It’s Security, discipline and deportment and that also means having youth prisons and reform schools to imprison the screwups in when they get expelled. A whipping post at the schools would really cut down on the expulsions, but whatever you can do.

The whole point of this is to reduce the unemployment rate, the imprisonment rate, and the bastardy rate among the proletariat and to make no bones about it. And racially, the blacks have a larger percent of their population in the proletariat so lets admit that none of what needs to be done will be racially neutral. Even the US Supreme Court is inching up to the admission that all men are not created equal except before the law. (It’s fun to watch the liberals on the court quake in their robes and blame it all on the election as if people aren’t sick of what the court itself has done to our cities.

The biggest part of change in this country if it comes in time is for the government and it’s agencies to start telling the truth about their actions and their intentions and to stop the realspeak.

Especially in education.

By Tony

July 6, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

The Cobb “incentive” plan was hardly an incentive. The “bonus” amounts averaged less than $1000 per year and were based on length of duty rather than on quality of performance. Real incentives for teachers would include administrative support for discipline, classrooms with fewer students (research says the number must be 15 or less to have a truly positive impact), and students who demonstrated a commitment to learning. Simply giving the teacher the equivalent of $5 a day (before taxes) is nothing less than insulting tot he profession and to the students of the needy schools.

By thomas

July 6, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

That’s right, Tony.

This is why only a few teachers were actually upset over its demise. You had other teachers (in other parts of the county) who are not at an “HPS” secretly glad it is being eliminated due to jealousy.

Here is what the HPS longevity incentive really amounted to:

After three years, your incentive would have been $4.39 a day ($2500), six years= $6.14 a day ($3500), nine years= $8.77 a day ($5000), 15 years= $4.39 a day ($5000) and 22 and 28 years= $3.76 a day ($5000)

Like I said before, even though you get a decent lump sum check after a period of years, it’s not real incentive. People need bonuses every year as an real incentive to stay in a High Priority School. Bonuses every few years just end up being rewards.

By Unknown

July 6, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

As a educated “white teacher” I am very offended at the comments by Thomas. I am a white teacher with 6 years experience and actually prefer to teach low income children. I love the challenges of my job and believe it takes a teacher who is willing to teach outside of the box to meet the needs of our urban children. Why would I want to go to a school in North DeKalb where parents are in my room daily and are only worried about how their child can get into the gifted program. ALL RICH WHITE KIDS ARE NOT GIFTED!!! I was one of them growing up. Now however I am a successful teacher in DeKalb who actually prefers the challenges of a tougher setting. I feel very safe going to work and these are the kids who actually need passionate teachers like myself. I challenge those who teacher in North DeKalb to come give South DeKalb a try! How many do you think would be willing???

By Lisa B.

July 9, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

I agree with the gist of the above posts. Discipline is by far the big issue. Somehow, education has become an entitlement rather than a priviledge. The kids and their parents know that the schools will take resposibility for everything, hold them accountable for nothing, and children pay no consequences for behavior, or lack of work. If these problems could be addressed, I think we’d see a big reduction in teacher turnover.

I’ve been out of town, and am catching up on all these great posts :-)

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Like Lisa B., I’m catching up, too…

Discipline aside, the other problems with the incentives are that they are spaced out too much, and that they don’t begin to cover the extra work involved at a high priority school.

What I observed was that teachers in the first of their three years weren’t invested enough to stick it out. The second year, I often heard, “Well, I’ll stay through next year, and then I’m out.” The third year? “I’m getting my bonus and then transferring.”

The money doesn’t begin to make up for the extra work - generally extra duty (example: some schools rotate bus duty, at an HPS everyone serves all year)and more paperwork and training - usually the cure du jour or the large number of TLC/SSTs and the accompanying CYA paperwork - not to mention the pressure of being at a school which doesn’t make AYP - most of the HPS at the middle school level didn’t.