Get Schooled

By Stacey

July 2, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Not meaning to be sarcastic, but are they also going to go to the other countries with immigrant students (legal or not) to learn their cultural nuances? Why must we adapt to their “cultural nuances” instead of them to ours?

By catlady

July 2, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Stacey, I don’t think we have to “adapt” to their cultural nuances. I DO think we should be AWARE of cultural differences, especially as they relate to education. As an ESOL teacher, I put a lot of effort into teaching my students OUR cultural expectations, but I know when I interact with their parents, they may not be aware of or comfortable with some things we take for granted. I try to clue in the other teachers, as well. To quote Kyra Sedgewick “Ahm just doin’ mah job”—to educate.

By Janine

July 2, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

In the mid/late 70’s and early 80’s the Dekalb school in which I was teaching began receiving a number of students from other countries [Cambodia, Viet Nam,Korea, Laos, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Mexico, Liberia, and more]. We soon began having “staff Development”/inservices on this very thing….cultural differences.

It went from “Don’t ask an Asian student to look you in the eye”, to.. “Hispanic girls dress more seductively”,.. to my personal favorite: “many students from other countries consider it their duty to help their Hispanic friends on tests, so we should be tolerent of their cheating!”
I listened and tried to be tolerant. The buzz-word NON JUDGMENTAL comes to mind, and it was just becoming a buzz word!!! However, when I found myself teaching a class in which I had students from as many as 7 or 8 countries, speaking as many languages, I saw how absolutely ridiculous this approach is . Teddy Roosevelt’s views on immigration have been quoted often in recent months, and I am in agreement with his assessment.

” he railed repeatedly against “hyphenated Americans” and the prospect of a nation “brought to ruins” by a “tangle of squabbling nationalities.” Also, he said, “Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country,English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools.”

By catlady

July 2, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

*It went from “Don’t ask an Asian student to look you in the eye”, to.. “Hispanic girls dress more seductively”,.. to my personal favorite: “many students from other countries consider it their duty to help their Hispanic friends on tests, so we should be tolerent of their cheating!” *

So what we do is teach what IS appropriate and what IS allowed, rather than using what the students are used to as an excuse not to teach them “our way”. I know, when I travel, I have to adapt to the local way of doing things. It helps to have a native to clue me in. However, in the past and even now at my school, there are many teachers blissfully unaware that there is ANY way of doing or thinking that is different from theirs. They merely take offense at any and everything a non-native does (and here I include Yankees, too!)

The students’ parents I am more accomodating to. I recognize, for instance, that the Guatemalan parents will be very deferential to me, and agree with me even if they really don’t. The mothers will look down and allow the fathers to speak, even when I address the mothers, etc. The Mexican men will generally be very courtly to me, at least to my face. The parents will rarely make excuses for their children, and may seem loathe to “take up” for them when it would be appropriate to. These are differences I have experienced.

So I teach the kids “Here is how we do it in the United States” and I try to gently steer their parents and coach them.

By Janine

July 2, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

catladY….speaking of parents….We had a student from Viet Nam…a perfect joy in every way. When Parent Conference night came around, his parents, much older than one would expect for a 7th grader, thanked our team [midddle school] profusely, and when the parents left, the father handed all of us envelopes. We thought probably a little thank you note. One of our team teachers opened hers right away./…… she found $100 bill. Then, we all opened the envelopes to find the same. She left the room, running down the hall to find the kind parent. He insisted that she/we keep the money…”it was his custom.” WE decided to take the issue to our principal. He decided that in order not to offend the parent , we should use the money for something for the class….a reasonable and wise decision , we thought. Just another “cultural difference!~”

By WFC

July 3, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this

ESOL instruction is a hoax. School systems simply don’t want to hire (or can’t) teachers to teach English. Very few ESOL students can compete in an academically challenging classroom. I’ve taken the ESOL course and implementing the techniques advocated would simply water-down my course and bore bright students to death. Yeah…. that’s a good plan!

By SET

July 3, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

This all reminds me of the Tower of Babel.

The whole point of public schooling is to provide a lowest common denominator around which the entire population can be sure of.

Cultural differences are fine. And they should be explored. But the writer who mentioned telling the students and families “here is how we do this in this country” is doing her job correctly.

We cannot have a town in which one third of the population doesn’t know you have to stop your car at red lights. - Or what is not tolerated in mating and courtship, sanitation and disease issues, use of violence, etc.

If the public schools are stuck with educating untold numbers of 3rd worlders we will have to get basic and comprehensive and stop saying that “it’s the parents job to teach” the usual complement of things. I believe in English immersion - with flashcards and visual aids as required.

And I wouldn’t want to do this job. Somehow we have to take the foreign invasion and give these kids - some of whom are born here (but you might knot be able to see that) a fighting chance in this Brave New World. And that might also involve opposing their parents wishes - and I have really no problem with that although it does have to be done subtly for the most part.

The current PC nonsense that you can’t countermand “family” culture is of course nonsense - We can start with forbidding “black english” in public schools and publicly correcting it’s use. If Mommy (their probably won’t be a daddy) wants to know what’s going on, tell her you’re teaching the kid how to pass telephone tests…

By thomas

July 3, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

I think the Gwinnett program is a great idea. Teachers should have the opportunity to learn about other cultures and languages, if they so choose to. Cobb has a program where a select number of teachers go to Mexico, Brazil, or South Korea to learn Spanish, Portuguese, or Korean— the three largest foreign languages spoken in Cobb schools.

Let’s not be closed minded or bigoted. We all can learn something by interacting with people different than ourselves. Learning a little about the culture of immigrant students can help us better teach and interact with those students.

No one is suggesting that immigrant students should not learn American culture and the English language. I simply believe that teachers need to be more sensitive to ALL students. My experience has taught me that, as a whole, American teachers and schools are quite insensitive to the students who attend those schools. This goes for public and private schools. We conduct business as if the students don’t matter. I bring this point up for this reason- I have actually been thinking and reflecting on our schools failure to properly assess and then teach towards helping students remediate any deficiencies or weaknesses they have having.

I have seen too many children failed by our system. WE (including myself) ARE ALL GUILTY. We do what we want in “our classroom.” In the end of someone isn’t successful, it’s the student’s, parent’s, system’s, state’s, federal government’s, EIP teacher’s, SPED teacher’s, Literacy Coach’s, ESOL teacher’s, or somebody else’s fault.

In my career, I have taught gifted students, average students, below average students, SPED students, ESOL students, black students, white students, Latino students, and Asian students. I have taught students who lived in rundown trailers and students who lived in 600 and $700,000 houses. There were classes where I had 8 gifted students in a class all the way down to none. What I have found is that many times, students who were really below average by fourth grade had been failed by teachers in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, and/or third grade. The children weren’t inherently lazy or had a bad attitude. Most of them had a good attitude and tried hard. But a person who only was interested in doing their thing and getting a check at the end of the month was their teacher.

The point is that we need to be more sensitive and compassionate toward our students- whether they are native born or foreign born, white, black, Latino, Asian, Arab, Indian, or other, from middle class homes or poor.

I am an ESOL, but I was a former classroom teacher. I learn the lessons of compassion, sensitivity, and understanding while I was still in the classroom. It was teaching fourth grade in a 70% Latino school that taught me that lesson- a school I did not choose to go. But it was a quite an experience. It was a humbling experience. I went from being a conceited teacher in the suburbs to becoming a better teacher who actually improved professionally as a result.

I think if we think about openness, understanding, and mutual respect among all groups America would be a better place.

By thomas

July 3, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

As for the comment about ESOL instruction— ESOL instruction is not a hoax. It is only a “hoax” when the program is facilitated by teachers and administrators WHO DO NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT LINGUISTICS OR TEACHING ENGLISH AND WHO ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN TEACHING IMMIGRANT STUDENTS. Yes, you see my friends, there are people in this world who take/get ESOL, EIP Augmented, SPED collaborative, Reading Recovery, Title I, “helper”, “aide” , “tutor”, and any other non classroom teacher position simply for the fact that they get to avoid the responsibilities of regular teachers.

I know of many ESOL teachers who are useless. They were stinking classroom teachers and do even less as an ESOL teacher. But a sorry, worthless administrator put them in an ESOL position (probably as a buddy/”I like you”/”She paid her dues” deal).

Appropriate and effective ESOL instruction, along with appropriate classroom instruction and support makes all the difference for these students. Students who don’t get this NEEDED assistance and language instruction languish years “in ESOL” and in many cases drop out of school. SIMPLY BEING PLACED IN AN ESOL PROGRAM IS NOT ENOUGH. THEY NEED TO BE IN AN EFFECTIVE PROGRAM. NOT UNDER THE TUTELAGE OF A GIRL OR OLD WOMAN WHO IS DOING THIS JOB BECAUSE SHE IS ALLOWED TO DO NEXT TO NOTHING.

By catlady

July 3, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

thomas—or old MAN who is about to retire and needs a few ” easy” years to fatten his retirement.

(as an ESOL teacher) What I hate is being supervised by someone who has never, even in high school, studied a foreign language (or traveled farther than Alabama), and has no clue about what it takes to learn one.

you see my friends, there are people in this world who take/get ESOL, EIP Augmented, SPED collaborative, Reading Recovery, Title I, “helper”, “aide” , “tutor”, and any other non classroom teacher position simply for the fact that they get to avoid the responsibilities of regular teachers. Or if you are a coach or a coach’s wife. (my addition)

I see a lot of this, especially in EIP and Title 1, thomas, not so much in Sp ed and ESOL because you are supposed to have certification in those areas.

I am fortunate in my school because my fellow teachers actively solicit my advice with the ESOL-eligible kids. Also, less than half of our ELLs get ESOL services because they are too advanced to need it. Finally, our ESOL and ELL kids pass the CRCT in high percentages, unlike quite a few of the Sonny-Bubbas whose families are native to the area.

By thomas

July 3, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this

Let me explain why I keep referring to women when I talk about teachers. Women make up the vast MAJORITY of teachers in schools. 90% of all elementary teaching staff is female. 80% of all middle school teaching staff is female. In the county I work in, females make up 97-98% of all elementary classroom and instructional support teaching positions. In addition, the personnel happen to be white females. This is regardless of geographic location, socioeconomic or racial makeup of the schools.

I bring this up for this reason- I believe that there should be a variety of people working as teachers in schools, not a closed shop. Males are closed out as teachers. So are minorities. I believe there are well qualified non white females who could do a darn good job as teachers. But many school systems and principals operate a closed shop. Only “good old girls need apply.”

Why do I bring up this forbidden subject? Because I have seen many people, including myself, overlooked due to stereotypes. I know of black teachers (as well as white teachers)who could run rings around me on my best days. Yet they are passed over— even in schools with large black student populations.

Also I believe more immigrant teachers- FROM ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD, should have a place in our schools. I know there are Latino teachers that would fit in fine in the heavily Hispanic school I used to work in. Heck, at least they could speak Spanish, something even to this day I cannot do fluently. Imagine having to deal with students and parents who do not speak your language, as well as the cultural connection.

What makes the teaching situation so bad is that many of these teachers that are working in our school are actually performing quite poorly. DON’T HIRE AND RETAIN PERSONNEL BASED SOLELY ON LOOKS AND CULTURE. This includes gender, race, socioeconomic status, religious affliation, sexual orientation, family status, etc. Also whether or not you are “pretty” or “cute”. Yes it happens. People are hired because they are deemed to be “young and cute.”

By Lee

July 4, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Well happy, happy, joy, joy, let’s all celebrate.

Let me break this down for you:

• There are an estimated 20-30 MILLION illegal alien lawbreaking criminals roaming around in this country.

• Given Gwinnette’s explosive hispanic growth in the last few years, it’s a pretty good bet that a significant percentage are illegal alien CRIMINALS.

• Gwinnette alone spends millions of dollars of hard earned taxpayer money just to hire ESOL teachers and other resources just to teach these non-English speaking students.

• Now, they are spending thou$and$ more to go down to Mexico to learn how to understand these CRIMINALS and to make them feel more COMFORTABLE.

Isn’t that special, not only does our government allow criminal activity by not enforcing border security and deporting these criminals when found in the USA, we now have them AIDING and ABETTING this criminal activity by sending our teachers to Mexico to get schooled.

Hey, I’m sure little Johnny and Suzie American doesn’t feel too comfortable either, having to sit in a classroom full of foreign invaders, but nobody seems to give a damn about that.

By thomas

July 4, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

There is a small white owned restaurant in Marietta that puts messages on its outside sign ranting about immigration. For some strange reason, people like Lee are ranting and raving about immigration and Mexicans. I don’t know why.

Why the hate now? Was the hate always there? Central Americans (Mexicans, in particular) have been coming to the U.S. for over 20 years now.

For some strange reason, people like Lee weren’t angry when the Mexicans flooded Marietta, Gwinnett, North Dekalb, Hall County, Forest Park, and other pockets throughout GA in the mid 90’s. Why? Because the corporations and businesses wanted them here.

I wonder— do the “Mexican haters” only rant about immigration when their corporate masters tell them to or is the hate always there? If it wasn’t for the puppetmasters of “conservative” talk radio would you be “angry” now?

For the record- The “immigration problem” can be solved without “deporting” anyone or “building a border fence”. Simply punish the corporations, businesses, and individuals who break the law by hiring, aiding, abeting, and doing business with “illegal aliens”. They are breaking the law. Without the businesses and individuals hiring, selling, and renting to immigrants, the people will simply move away.

But the problem with that solution is that greedy Americans lose out on some ill-gotten profits. They profit at the expense of the nation, and all I hear from these so-called “conservatives” (bigots, really) is that they are against immigration.

When bigots want to confront the white owned:

1) Corporations that market to Mexicans, and own Spanish language radio stations/TV networks that cater to Mexicans

2) Corporations that run stores like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Home Depot, etc, that put signage in Spanish and stock Spanish book sections,

3) Corporations that operate Spanish Language newspapers/magazines (like Mundo Hispanic- owned by the AJC) and the local businesses that put Spanish ads in those newspapers- like Publix, etc.

4) All the businesses, big and small, that ACTUALLY PREFER AND GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO HIRE MEXICANS OVER US

5) All the American owned apartment complexes that rent to illegals, while locking out Americans through racism, sexism, classism, credit requirements, criminal background checks, employment checks, extra deposits, notes from your mother, et al. Same thing for housing.

6)Local and state governments that do not enforce laws and regulations on immigrants, yet make our own citizens dot every i and cross every t.

7) Middle class and upper class homeowners who hire illegals to work as housekeepers, nannies, maids, and landscapers,

THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION— OTHERWISE SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!!!!!! This is not a Hispanic problem. It’s a white problem. White Americans caused this problem, not Mexicans, Guetemalans, Hondurans, etc. Blacks didn’t even have a hand in immigration. Blacks are not the ones aiding and abeting immigrants. Other Mexicans are not the ones aiding and abeting other immigrants. We are.

Why is Lee, AND OTHERS LIKE HIM, so willing to overlook their fellow Americans who make it possible for “illegal” immigrants to live here comfortably.

*Is it about justice, fairness nationalism, and the good of the nation that fuels the arguments I see today?

Or is it the ugly head of racism and prejudice we see today?*

By Lee

July 4, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

So, if anyone speaks out about the foreign invasion currently underway, we are “haters” and “racists” and “bigots”.

That’s become the Pavlov-like response from the social lemmings like Thomas who don’t understand that America is in the fight for her life, and our politicians are giving her away on a silver platter.

Every industrialized nation has a need for the low-skilled laborer. In years past, this need was filled very nicely by Americans, thank-you-very-much. However, beginning with FDR’s ill-fated New Deal policies and continued through with LBJ’s Great Society policies, we began paying these low-skilled laborers not to work. Our welfare programs took millions of workers out of the market and paid them to sit around on their lazy asses. Hence, the need for even more low-skilled workers to fill that void.

In addition, our federal government failed miserably in it’s duty to secure our borders and even passed policies that forced local taxpayers to fund things such as free medical care and schooling for these illegal alien CRIMINALS.

It’s just a matter of time before our spineless politicians grant these criminals amnesty. They then will find their way onto the voter rolls and will begin to vote themselves even more benefits from the public largess.

But no, our people are down in Mexico learning how to make the children of these foreign invaders more comfortable.

By thomas

July 4, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

The “foreign invasion” can end tomorrow. However we have to stop it. We can.

Sad to say, our schools have done a poor job of teaching history. Either that or many of our citzens are in a dazed state. Like zoombies in Night of the Living Dead.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother trying to use logic in my arguments, when most of these people can only use emotion.

By Lee

July 4, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Maybe when you teach history, you can tell your students that NEVER in the course of history, has a country allowed 20-30 MILLION INVADERS into their country without a fight.

That is, until now.

By jim d

July 5, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

Oh my!

Yet another example of a blatant Mexican plot to destroy the U.S.

Teaching teachers about the cultural differences of their diverse student population will surely lead to a rapid decline in instruction for Johnny American (aka. Johnny Dumb A$%)

By SET

July 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Jim D: It’s not the Mexicans who are plotting to destroy the US. They want to steal the place whole. In CA they make no bones about the fact that they are occupying and taking over the place city by city. Because they can. And because we let them.

It’s the current inhibitants of Congress and the Exec branch (the elite) who have decided to fire the people and replace them with new people more to their liking. And our “President” who refuses to defend the states from foreign invasion.

I don’t have a problem with staff being made aware of cultural differences. I have a problem with staff not being directed to iron them out.

Some of the cultural differences We see all the time in CA is Mexicans openly driving drunk and driving while drinking alcohol behind the wheel, Mid 20’s Mexican Males having sex with 13 year olds with the knowledge of the girl’s parents. public urination - including mothers having their toddlers go in the streets and sidewalks, Diseases such as TB, Expecting Free Medical Care which is never given in Mexico, and in various ways, re-creating the Tijuana slums all over our state complete with cars on the lawn and packed-to-the-ceiling housing. And I’m talking about behavior in our cities, not rural areas.

This is what “Diversity” means to CA.