Get Schooled

By Jeff

June 21, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

People - whether they be students, employees, Marines, or any other - will RISE OR SINK to the DEMANDS placed on them. If you let a low level slide, you will get a low level of performance. If you DEMAND a high level - and swiftly and draconianly punish any who fall short - you will get a high level.

By catlady

June 21, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Before “raising” standards, we need to ensure that the kids going to high school have the skills they need to succeed—to do real high school work. In my county, about a third of the kids have no business in high school. They have been passed on and passed on (years of failing the CRCT—a minimal test with minimal standards—although they are supposed to be retained. ) Kids leaving 5th grade reading on second grade level, who do not qualify (why not) for special ed, for example. Kids who expect education to be “given” them as though it were a new Nintendo game. Students who need to be praised or rewarded for sitting up and taking a breath.

Another third to half of our students have the potential to make it in middle school, to prepare for high school. They (and their parents) need the kind of motivation that comes from knowing that they have to get it in gear or they WON’T go to regular high school. That first third and the second group who doe not develop their skills need to be placed in a practical course of study for high school, loaded with practical math, practical science, and a focus on job-related skills appropriate to their interests and abilities, with lots of career guidance and exploration.

THEN, the other third or less who are left are “entitled” to pursue a more rigorous academic track, which can lead to college. Or they may decide later to attend technical college for more demanding technical careers.

It is what you’d call HIGH TIME we recognized that we cannot fit all these kids into the hole labeled college-bound. Some don’t have the skills or abilities or motivation to do that level of work. We continue to waste money and effort, instead of acknowledging that God gave each of us differing abilities and talents. Other countries recognize this, and get more bang for the buck out of their education systems.

I recall back in the 60s we had kids “disappear” after 6th, 7th, 8th grade. They couldn’t do the work, and there were no alternatives provided to help them choose a viable career and develop the skills they needed. Lots of them moved into the unskilled labor jobs (but of course, we have the Latinos now to do that. Sad smile). Nowadays we seem to have bought into the idea that the schools can MAKE the student successful. Well, that isn’t true. We need to recognize and celebrate our diversity of skills, abilities, and interests.

Yeah, yeah, I hear someone saying, “But what if he is a slow bloomer?” Well, I wouldn’t think a student would be barred from changing learning trajectories ( let’s not call them tracks). But to do so they would have to demonstrate the requisite readiness for the work demanded by the new trajectory.

On this blog, we lament the lack of involvement and vested-ness of parents and students. But, if less free-wheeling choice and more personal effort were recognized and rewarded, we might see more.

And don’t for one second think I am denigrating vocational ed as for the intellectually inferior. I sure don’t want a “dummy” working on my car, or caring for me in the hospital. We should make an effort to match students to an area of interest that their abilities can support. We should provide real-world experience. We should also encourage, perhaps through more effective articulation, those on the non-academic career trajectory to continue developing their skills, academic and vocational, in postsecondary ed, if they are so inclined.

If we do this, then yes! increasing expectations for high school would be beneficial. Until that time, there are many students for whom that would be the sound of the door shutting even faster and harder than it does now.

By SET

June 21, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Now this is a hell of a problem.

It takes very little tinkering with qualification standards to have a very big impact on racial quotas. You can knock out a large percentage of black applicants for driver’s licenses, bar admission, medical board qualification, or high school graduation with just a little tweaking of the pass threasholds.

Which is why we have the childish levels of minimum competency in High School state exams. In CA the state legislature at one point was going to set the minimum reading level for high school graduation to 10th grade. When they saw they projected numbers of black failure the changed it to 8th grade reading level minimum to get a HG diploma. Still they delayed enforcement of the state test for years due to handwringing about the poor black folks who would be “denied” a high school diploma. Meanwhile certain other ethnic groups are passing the test at 14 and laughing about the whole thing.

We are about to see more of the same with the new DMV computer terminal administered driver’s license exams. The system is set to time the responses to the questions and to run down the points if you take time to answer the questions correctly. Those of us who get it on racial IQ distribution know full well what will happen. As it is already black males 16 to 30 are far less likely to have a valid driver’s license in CA compared to 1960. This change should really accellerate that trend.

And you can’t teach around low IQ. You can try to warn people to get their drugs in order, see a pulmonary physician about that sleep apnea, and maybe get a full night’s sleep before these tests. That assumes the test subjects give a damn.

So do we start upping standards? I say yes and no. I would not increase the standards at DMV beyond the point where we require an IQ to operate a car (or a scooter which I believe should have lower standards) higher than what is reasonable. Plenty of lower IQ people drive vehicles with an acceptable crash ratio even if they don’t change the oil or maintain their cars (or teeth).

As far as schools, It’s my opinion that IQ testing should be conducted early and often in schools and the scores put on the transcripts. But that’s just one opinion. I don’t know yet what to say about the statewide (or dare I say, national) cutoff we want to set for HS diplomas.

If we go to 10th grade average reading levels we may probably bar half of all American Negroes from ever getting a HS diploma. The African Immigrants generally don’t have a problem. Even the Mexicans do better than the blacks for reasons that are well known to both groups.

If we set the bar higher (than the current 8th grade avg) some of the lower avg IQ group members will work harder and manage to make it. Do we want to see how many? Do we want to reintroduce corporal punishment into the high schools to create an atmosphere where you can get the work done? Or do we just expel all the non-performers to try to save the rest of the black students (and make the stats look better)? That’s what is happening now except they leave on their own for the most part.

These are tough questions that I think tactics are best left to the individual schools - while allowing the schools to compete among themselves for student enrollment.

When it’s sink or swim time people take swimming lessons. My mother never learned to swim and she lived in CA since ‘49. Swimming pools everywhere and she didn’t bother to ever learn to swim. She didn’t have to. My siblings and I were literally tossed into pools at 3 or 4 and told to start swimming. They took the water wings off shortly. She watched from a lawn chair. It was hot outside anyway so we didn’t mind.

I believe we should start upping the reading and math standards gradually, while improving the choice of HS programs and bringing in retired police and military to work on the deportment, discipline and dress code of the HS students. I believe this is directly related to the black failure rate also.

I don’t believe for a minute this will happen here. The public schools are being abandoned to the underclass and no one cares what happens to them. They will be dead or in prison anyway. The middle class in this state, even retired military - are all making plans to leave CA by retirement for one of the “retreat” states.

By zombieboy

June 21, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Too bad inner city youth are bringing down the scores for the rest of the state.

Add to that mix Hispanics that refuse to learn English as their primary language.

Recipe for diaster for the entire state. That’s OK, because the rest of the U.S. is also on a race to the bottom as well.

Just a matter of time until there is another Revolution in this country…..I don’t want one, but one day it will all go south.

By catlady

June 21, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

zombie, the Latino kids at our school are the hardest working, and speak better English than our native Sonny-bubbas. However, you may have had a different experience,

By zombieboy

June 21, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Catlady, you are using buzz words that lead me to believe you are an apologist for failure in this county.

Just because someone is “hard working” does not mean they will become an asset to the community or even have the skill sets to hold a meaningful job.

By em

June 21, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

I don’t understand why everyone is getting in a tizzy here. Kathy Cox is stating that standards are being raised but in reality who’s kidding who? First of all, the CRCT, EOCT, and GHSGT are fairly easy exams comprised of questions that require little analytical skill. Secondly, if a student fails the CRCT they can still be promoted at the decision of a committee comprised of school officials and the parents of the student. If a student fails the GHSGT, there are multiple opportunities to make it up, generally with a tremendous amount of school support (remember NCLB). Failing the EOCT is also a nonissue because it only counts 15% of a grade and few students fail it due to the disparity between actual and scaled scores. Which leads to my third point, until the scoring of the standardized exams is fully understood, no one will ever truly know how students of Georgia are performing. I agree with SET on the IQ issue. The sooner educrats realize that all students do not possess the same intelligence and all students will not go to a college, the better off the everyone will be. Maybe it’s time that comprehensive high schools come back into vogue. One does not need to go to college to be a success but one does need skills and that is where schools are failing. I can’t get excited over Kathy Cox’s profession of a tougher curriculum; I feel that it is just smoke and mirrors … again.

By Nikole

June 21, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

Zombie- Inner city youth are bringing test scores down, but have you ever been in one of these schools? The level of instruction is far different from suburban schools. What is taught and how it is taught is inferior to suburban schools, sometimes with the teacher being at fault and sometimes they are forced to teach that way. It has nothing to do with being a minority. If white students were put in a system like that (although white and middle class parents would not allow their kids to be taught in this manner), they would be set to fail too.

By catlady

June 21, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Zombie, Just because someone is “hard working” does not mean they will become an asset to the community or even have the skill sets to hold a meaningful job

You got that right! No, I don’t think I am an apologist for much of anything. I teach the Latino kids; I’ve been doing it full-time for 6 years. There are 130 at our school, out of over 600. Many of them outscore the majority of our “native” rural mountain kids on CRCT, ITBS, etc. Of the 130, all but 40 are as proficient or more proficient in English than native students. (they don’t, for example, say “Have went”.) Listening to all but 6 or 7, you might not know they weren’t “from around here.” They do work very hard to get around in 2 and sometimes 3 or 4 languages. At awards assemblies, 50% of those getting awards are those who you say “refuse” to learn English, although they make up less than 20% of our school population. The breakdown for our school is white 80%, mixed and other 2%, and Latino (any race) 18%. The teachers at our school WANT the Latino kids in their rooms, because they are TEACHABLE and because their parents WANT them to come to school, behave honorably, and learn.

Being hard working is a lot better in developing skills than being naturally advantaged (by birth, ability, money, whatever) and lazy. I see a lot of that laziness or sense of entitlement around in apologists who say they cannot get a job because those d#%@! Mexicans stole them. Every native born American should be able to succeed, given half the effort I see in my students, and they wouldn’t have to do it in a different language.

Like you, I want the job to go to the best qualified person. And, perhaps like you, I think there are real problems with the current and proposed immigration systems. I encourage you, however, to get out and see the children you are talking about, and talk to their teachers. Perhaps we only get the cream of the crop immigrant students where I live, but I doubt it.

I don’t see failure from these students. I see honor students.

By SET

June 21, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

Zombie and Catlady are both right. Unfortunately. This is our great problem.

The immigrants - invaders - occupiers - invitees - (all the words are accurate) are of higher IQ and more competitive than our indigent lower class. That’s why Bush & Kennedy have thrown the doors open and imported them by the millions. These new “Americans” are better servants for the ruling elite because their IQs average 93 and UP. Of Course they can do better than the blacks and the worst of the poor whites. That’s why they are here.

Still the later generations of some of the immigrant groups do worse academically and socially than the original generation for various well known reasons. And some of these invitees carry terrible diseases that were not previously endemic to the USA - like drug resistant TB to start with.

I don’t want my government replacing the US population with a huge group of foreigners that they can keep in economic and social slavery. I don’t want millions of people brought to and birthed in this country that don’t give a fig for the US Constitution and will happily see it cancelled. I don’t want the US to turn into a Bannana Republic - complete with a collapsed medical system and non-functional schools and riots in the streets and daily kidnappings for ransom. (CA already has seen everything but the kidnappings) Anybody been to Mexico City lately? Did you see the Denzell Washington Movie “Man On Fire”?

Brave New World.

By Fulton County Mom

June 21, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

In the immortal words of Dave Slater (Wheeler High School) “Rise up from the muck of mediocrity”

Where are parents on this? I mean I had a right to ‘drop out’ according the state but HELLO! My parents revoked that…not under their roof.

I don’t believe that line that school is not for everyone. There is absolutely NO REASON that the average person cannot get a High School Diploma with the standards from say 1978-1988 in place (yes I know they varied during that time frame, but the were before QBE started).

Get the kids segregated by ability (and possibly by gender too) and let the kids who will rise, rise…and take AP etc…those that don’t will still have the basic skills needed to survive as a PRODUCTIVE member of the community at large.

By SET

June 21, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Nikole: I need to point out again that the right side of the bell curve takes care of themselves. You can send them to bad schools and they will teach themselves most of whatever they need from the Internet, or the public library, etc. They have books at home. They have educated parents. To put the problem of public education in terms of Medical Triage - they are going to survive anyway. Even the average age of puberty is thought to relate to the ability to take education (Blacks reach puberty earliest, Whites middle, Asians latest)

I see the concern of public education as being tied to that part of the population that can go up or down socioeconomically depending on what the school does for them. They may have no parents worth anything. They may have middling intelligence but not be basically screwed up people. If this group are worked on, they can become more then they (or thier families) ever expected to become. Fully employed, to start with.

So I don’t agree with your premise that “white people…would be set to fail too.” The odds are that half of them would have an IQ of 100 or more (by definition - IQ scores are normed on whites with “100” being the white avg). With scores at that level their mortality rates so to speak whould be decisively higher than blacks.

Educators in this country refuse to see biodiversity which is before them as plain as the nose on their faces. Ethnic groups are different which is what psychometricians and anthropologists have been publicly demonstrating for well over 100 years.

The question is are we going to tune our public school system so it actually works before a whole bunch of people who could have been made productive wind up dead or in prison.

Apparently not.

By thomas

June 21, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Here’s the reality about the influx of Latino students and our schools. Many of these students, particularly those who were not born in the United States or have only been here a few years, are more humble and have a better attitude than most native Americans. This includes their parents. Americans, black and white, are the ones that are lazy, have nasty attitudes, and make excuses.These are the students who waste opportunities in school and just wreck up the place. American students are the ones WHO ARE THE WORST BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!

The longer Latinos stay in the country and become more “Americanized”, does their attitude change. They acquire the same foul attitudes as the black and white Americans. An assistant principal I used to work with once told me this- “The Hispanics kids are either real good or real bad.” She was right. Look at Los Angeles and New York. You see Latinos there in gangs with bad attitudes. The warmth and love you see from many American teachers comes from the fact that they are probably teaching relatively new, immigrant Latinos. The ones teaching the “old” second and third generation Latinos probably have a different story.

I am a ESOL teacher who works with almost entirely Mexican students. The school I taught at this year was 70% Hispanic, 90% free/reduced lunch. Most of the remaining population (about 25%) was black, with a few hapless whites thrown in for good measure. The teachers at my school worked there for one of two reasons— either they were a clique that got to do whatever the h_ll they wanted to do and were buddies with the principal (about 15 people) or old teachers who wanted an easy ride. Although this was an America’s Choice school, as long as you had everything in your room looking good for “visitors” (standards posted, other crap on the walls, etc.) or were in the clique, you could coast. The parent contact was NONEXISTENT. I SAID NONEXISTENT!!!!! The majority of your parents didn’t even speak English!!! The teachers didn’t need to speak Spanish because they used other students to translate for them. The black parents and the pitiful whites still left didn’t care about any instruction anyway.

The point of the story is this— White teachers will work in a barrio school (AS LONG AS THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT CRAZY) because the Latinos are working with are docile. This is so very important to know. The young ones work there a few years to hone their chops and then move on and the old ones stay for the peace and quiet. We all know the academics are low. Nobody works in a majority Latino school to work with the gifted, OK.

I became a ESOL teacher because I like working with students with good attitudes. I wanted to get out of the classroom grind and I D_MN sure didn’t want to deal any of the sickening attitudes, excuses, and lies I had to deal with and seen from Americans (both black and white). The parents and students were just as bad.

I started my work in ESOL at 60% black, 25% white school. This school was a stressful environment for classroom teachers. The cooperation level, for both students and parents, was nil. The excuse and BS level was enormous.

I don’t know if I will make a career out of ESOL and working with immigrants. But for now I am happy with working with small groups of kids, teaching basic reading and writing, with some paperwork thrown in from time to time.

The reason why some of us do not hate Latino students is because of the respect we are given (most of the time) and the minimal effort they usually put forth. Our own people don’t even do that.

By Nikole

June 21, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

SET- I have been reading this blog for a couple years now, so I am very familiar with your loyalty to the bell curve. However, as an educator, I am not in the mindset of not working for change because of “scientific evidence” such as bell curves. ( I am a firm believer in Claude Steele’s work on disengagement as a more likely reason for this.) I understand that you are too old to change, but I have a lot of life left and my purpose here is to be an advocate for students that do not have anyone working for them. It would be counterproductive for me to accept your views of education.

By thomas

June 21, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

The new changes proposed for high school diplomas are sickening and disgusting. These stupid rules are simply designed to keep students from getting diplomas. It is so sickening. Why try to block people from success? This country is sickening and cold hearted. We should be opening doors, not closing them. Why does every single person need to have four years of English, math, science, and two years of foreign language in order to be a productive citizen.

Why does every single person, with the exception of “special education” students, need to take algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus? Why does every single person need to study biology, physics, chemistry, and some sort of earth science? Why does every single person be forced to sit through two years of a foreign language, when the average person will NEVER LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, DOESN’T WANT TO LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you hear what I said? I said never learn a foreign language. The students will sit in a high school Spanish, French class, etc. for years, do the little assignments, study as little as possible, have the same attitude and effort as all their other classes.

These rules are designed to make it more difficult for minorities and working/lower class whites to get high diplomas. The fact of the matter is that even the current high school diploma is unnecessary for most of the low wage/manual labor/clerical/janitoral jobs that most people with only high school diplomas have. And now the state wants to snatch even that little “accomplishment” (if you can call it that) from these people. Shameful.

By catlady

June 21, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

The kids I work with were almost all born in this country, of illegal immigrant parents. I agree with Thomas, that the ones we have the most trouble with are generally those who have been here longest and adopted our good ole American sense of privilege and “you can’t touch me” attitude. The “So?” syndrome.

I think our teachers enjoy the Latino students because they generally do well and behave well. If we call a parent about a problem, the problem is gone immediately 95% of the time. I work very hard to foster a close relationship between our school and the Latino parents, and do special programs which are very very very well attended. (Contrast: 8-10 parents (white) at PTA vs 60 Latino parents at our special meetings.)

But back to the topic at hand: I think we should pay more attention, not less, to where the kids in high school are headed. It takes no genius to know that a child who takes 3 years to learn one year’s worth of stuff will not be able to do the high school curriculum, unless we dumb it down some MORE. All students should have basic skills, but after that, to meet their needs and ours as a society, we should offer different paths. Some students do better with the practical application of the information, and some are disposed toward the more theoretical and less hands-on.

I get real pzzed when parents have offered the excuse that little Johnny is failing because he is “bored”. He needs to discipline his mind to learning the stuff, making A’s, and then complain that he is bored. If he shows mastery, I can always find other things to teach him. In conferences with parents of “bored” students, I have found two things: the child has been “bored” every year of school, and there is a large presence of video, computer, and TV in the house. Without exception, in my experience, that has been true. Well, life, and education, are not as fast and sedentary as a video game.

As to making the curriculum harder, until a student is up to speed on basic skills, shows a sense of self-control and responsibility, and has some degree of drive, they will profit not from any “improvement” in curriculum. Right now, for many students, we are losing the race on those three items, and making it harder (in reality), or making it appear harder (dumbing down courses) won’t help. At some point there is a law of diminishing returns.

By Jeff

June 21, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

Nikole:

“Disengagement” == poor excuse for what even my parents’ generation would call “laziness”

Kids don’t need to be “engaged” in any other way than by boot to tail.

DISCIPLINE, FOCUS, and CONTROL are what the kids need, not “engagement”.

By SET

June 21, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Nikole - I am only one opinion. We write here on this blog to float baloons and get the conversation moving. I look at the “Bell Curve” research as a form of gambling odds. Why the numbers are the way they are can be debated (nutrition vs pure dna theory, etc).

But the numbers are the numbers and it will take more than our lifetimes to get these averages to move. I think they are being forced further apart by the Great Society Welfare Policy anyway. (dumb people having the most kids and raising them) Anyway, I don’t play against the house odds. I work with them.

The fact is our urban public schools are fueling stations for the prisons and crematoriums for large numbers of you-know-who and I get to work with them on the way out. So I blame the schools (blaming the parents is a waste of time - they’re screw-ups also).

I was a sub once and in my school district they snapped the whip (not literally). I like to think we actually kept some people awake and on their toes long enough to learn something and stay out of trouble.

When I rarely guest speak in public schools nowadays the deportment is shamefull. No one wants to fight with these kids at all. And I would, no matter what their scores were. There is something everybody can do - at least be able to get a job at McDonalds part time. But you can’t treat the dull students as you would the brights. I have to ‘splain things to dimwits for a living. And I suppose Law is more fun than having to deliver bad news on Cancer Dx’s which some of my relatives do.

I enjoy reading your point of view. It’s more fun when there are disagreements going anyway. We all need to work our positions.

By SET

June 21, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this

Nikole - Actually I can change on a dime when I need to. I’m a lawyer, remember? The courts can be a casino with new definitions and new crimes and new legal protocols - sometimes conflicting with each other - coming in by the month. My job is to work it for my side (and not forget any little untied shoelace). I’m very good at it.

And as far as age, If I am old, then you are young. In my game which involves people’s lives - age and experience beats youth and “principle” any day of the week.

By JessieJane

June 22, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I have been reading this blog for several months now, but have not responded to many comments. After reading your ideas about what students need: Kids don’t need to be “engaged” in any other way than by boot to tail. DISCIPLINE, FOCUS, and CONTROL are what the kids need, not “engagement”

I have to say how glad I am that you found employment outside of education. I mean no offense, but if students are engaged, the focus comes much quicker. While you may learn by forced rote memorization, this is not the norm.

I have found, through many years of teaching, that engagement in the concept of learning, regardless of the content, decreases classroom management issues, increases student achievement, and creates an environment of responsibility on the part of the learners. I do agree that students have a responsibility in the matter, but as a teacher, so do I.

Again, no offense meant, but I don’t think your short stay in the classroom lends much credibility to your opinion.

By Jeff

June 22, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Jessie:

Admiteddly, back in school - particularly the early years - I had two facts working GREATLY in my favor. The first was an (at the time) undiagnosed case of Asperger’s Syndrome. Learning was EASY for me. Always has been, always will be (unless you’re talking Chem or Calculus).

The second, more important factor: I knew that if I came home with anything less than the BEST report card, my dad was going to take off that sweaty, oily workbelt that he wore every day (he worked as a mechanic at the local Goodyear plant) and leave welts on my tail.

Pain is the strongest motivator of all. NO ONE will EVER convince me otherwise.

The reason I left teaching- other than the mess with Bobby Jenkins and his aspirations for his daughter - was because parents now have lost sight of the fact that pain is in fact the strongest motivator, and legally there wasn’t much I could do to cause pain. (Though I did inflict as much stress as possible, which is the SECOND best aside from physical pain.)

One of the quickest lessons most kids learn early in life: It aint when momma TELLS them not to touch the hot stove. It is when they DO IT and get burned. The phsyical pain of having a burned hand teaches us at roughly 2 yrs old “I don’t want to do that again!” Later in life, various other experiences with pain teach us a variety of other lessons. As long as the pain is SOMEWHAT controlled by the parents (ie not letting the child get killed), growth occurs every time.

By luvs2teach

June 22, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Ironies in education:

Teachers are supposed to “differentiate” to meet the needs of each individual learner…yet we want to give them a “one-size-fits-all” diploma…hmmm.

I don’t know about you folks, but I find “one-size-fits-all’ generally fit no one particularly well (which is why “custom-made” is a pricy upgrade).

A lot of people are getting upset about the ability factor - people are forgetting the INTEREST factor! Some kids aren’t interested in going to college - and their folks are OK with that. Not all parents who are OK with that are non-caring slackers, either - some recognize their children’s strength, weaknesses, and interests.

My sister is one of those people - she did the old “business track” in high school, started working right away, and has done very well - she’s now an executive secretary with a well-known company - good salary, great benefits. For a very long time, she made more than I did - particularly when you consider she didn’t have to pay back student loans.

Her daughter, now in high school, isn’t interested in going to college - isn’t particularly engaged in high school now, either.

Wouldn’t it be better for her to have the opportunity to get some job skills and training now, so she has options other than, “Would you like fries with that?”

By JessieJane

June 22, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Jeff, We will simply have to disagree on this one. I don’t believe beating a child accomplishes a desired result.

I was also expected to do my best in school. My parents were supportive of the school system, and if my brothers or I got in trouble at school, we were in trouble at home. We all managed to be good students and successful in our chosen careers without the motivation of pain.

I hope your eyes and mind will be opened to other ways to motivation as you marry and have kids of your own.

By Nikole

June 22, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff- While I do think that engaging lessons are important and I strive for that in my classroom, that is not what I was talking about when I mentioned disengagment. That is a term used to research the variable of value and belonging that students,(research focuses mostly on minority and femaile students)have in school. Disengagement ultimately led to dropping out of schcool.

By Jeff

June 22, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Nikole:

My comment still stands. The only form of “engagement” - no matter the definition - kids need is their dad’s boot to be “engaged” in their tails.

Even in my day - I graduated HS in 2001 - Dad cared about ONE thing: all his kids doing well in school. Mom and Dad had HS diplomas, but they wanted each of the kids to get SOME KIND of college degree.

And neither mom nor dad were afraid to put their boots up your tail so far it would come out your mouth if you didn’t perform to their expectations.

If we had more parents like that, we wouldn’t be wondering what was causing a 56% HS Graduation rate, we’d be wondering what was causing a 99.9% HS Graduation rate.

By WFC

June 22, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

ESOL simply doesn’t work. I’ve taken ESOL courses and if I implemented the ESOL strategies, the bright regular students would die of boredom. The ESOL program exists because the school systems don’t want to hire teachers to teach students English. Just another burden on rgular ed teachers.